Realfoodology - 4: The Lymphatic Systems Role in Immunity with Lisa Levitt Gainsley

Episode Date: September 30, 2020

Today's episode features Lisa Levitt Gainsley, a lymphatic drainage specialist.  With everything going on right now, I thought what better time than to talk about the immune system and the important role that the lymphatic system plays in it. Lisa and I talk about what the lymphatic system is, why it’s so important, the role it plays in immunity, and what you can do today to enhance your immune system! Find Lisa: https://www.thelymphaticmessage.com/IG: @thelymphaticmessage

Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of the Real Foodology podcast. I'm Courtney Swan, your host, and today's episode is so relevant to everything going on right now. Our immune health is more important than ever, and the lymphatic system plays a huge role in immunity. I really wanted to bring this woman on to talk about it, just considering everything that we're going through and that we've been going through in the last six months. And I really love this episode because the woman I talked to is a lymphatic drainage specialist. And we talk all about the lymphatic system and its role in

immune health. And there's just a lot of really great takeaways with stuff that you can do today to improve your immune health. Before we get into the episode, I like to start out by answering questions that you guys send in. I'm going to assume that today's question is probably pretty relatable to a lot of you listening. It's been a tough year.

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returns. Today's question was submitted via email by Keisha and she wrote, I'm an avid wine and cocktail drinker on the weekends. What are some alternatives to the super sugary mixes and wines that I usually drink? I love this question because I'm also an avid wine drinker. I love wine. I love a good mezcal cocktail margarita, but a lot of the drinks that you get out are super sugary. So I'm going to first address, if you're at home, this is really simple by, so there's a company called dry farm wines. There's actually a lot of companies that are doing this now, but my favorite one is Dry Farm Wines. And actually I have the founder

coming on the podcast in a couple of weeks. So look out for that episode. And they're doing keto wines. So essentially when they're fermenting the wine, they just let it ferment a little bit longer and they actually ferment out the majority of the sugars and they don't add in sugar afterwards. So look for organic low sugar wines. A great place to start is dry farm wines. They deliver everywhere. I know Thrive Market also does lower sugar wines. There's another company called Scout and Cellar. They also do them. So look for organic low sugar wines. If you're out, you're eating out to dinner. If you can find an organic biodynamic wine on the menu, go for that. Otherwise, you know, live a little. One or two glasses ofave, whatever it is. So generally when I'm

ordering a margarita, for example, I'll say, I want the spicy margarita. Please do not put agave in there. At first it's going to be really tart and it's going to take a minute to get used to, but I actually prefer it now. I would prefer a tart mezcal margarita over a super sweet sugary one and bonus points. You're not going to get a hangover the next day. Um, another little hack that you can do if you really can't handle the tartness of it, I bring little packets of monk fruit or Stevia in my purse and I just ask them to hold the agave and then I'll throw a packet of monk fruit in there to sweeten it up. So if you're at home, uh, Lakanto, a monk fruit, the monk fruit company that I talk about all the time that I love, they actually make a Lakanto simple syrup and it's a sugar-free syrup. So you can use that in place. There's also an allulose syrup that you can use in place of agave for margaritas.

As you start to train your palate, you're not really going to crave those super sugary drinks anymore. And you'll get used to just doing soda water with lemon or lime and your tequila or vodka or whatever your alcohol of choice is. There's also, I don't know how into seltzers you are, but there's that whole white claw movement. Personally, I don't like white claw because they use corn syrup and just crappy grains. But there is a cider called 101 Cider. It's sugar-free probiotic. And they also make another one called pulp culture, which is sugar-free and made with just a hard press juices. It's really good. So hopefully that helps you. And that's it for today's questions. If you have

a question that you would like me to answer on air, please email me at real foodology podcast at gmail.com. Also note in there, if you would be willing to do to, if you would be willing to ask the question live, because eventually I would love to call you guys and specifically talk to you live and record it for the podcast. I think it'd be really fun. So please email me and let me know. And with that, let's get to the episode. Lisa Levitt Gainsley is a lymphatic drainage specialist. She holds a double certification in lymphedema therapy, and she's been a lymphatic massage practitioner for over 27 years. She utilizes her decades of vast knowledge of the lymphatic system for clients, whether they want glowing skin, a flatter stomach, or are they interested in the deeper benefits

of lymph flow? Detoxifying lymph benefits include a strengthened immune system, less inflammation, and more vitality. Lisa has worked with people who suffer from ailments ranging from cancer, lupus, IBS, Crohn's, autoimmune disorders, eczema, digestive problems, menstrual issues, and wellness enthusiasts looking to avoid the chronic diseases their parents suffer from. With this toxin flushing technique, you can feel better instantly and recover quicker from injuries, surgeries, and pesky ailments. Other modalities haven't been able to alleviate. Welcome to the show, Lisa. Thank you so much for having me, Courtney. I'm doing all right. How are you doing today? I'm good. Good. I was very much looking forward to this episode, like I said, because I feel like the lymphatic system is, a lot of people don't really understand it

or know a lot about it and the role that it plays in our immune system. So I wanted to start out talking about it and just answering what is the lymphatic system? Great question. So I'll try to keep it sort of brief. I can definitely be a little verbose about it. I love it. Dive in deep. Okay. So your lymphatic system is a part of your immune system. Your immune cells develop in the lymphoid organ, which is the bone marrow. Most people don't realize the bone marrow is part of your lymph system and your immune cells migrate to other lymphoid organs in your life, your spleen and your thymus and your tonsils and your appendix.

And they produce your fighter B and T cells that either can ward off cancer or can sample other viruses, pathogens and bacteria. That occurs in your lymph nodes. You have lymph nodes clustered through different hubs of your body. Most people are familiar with the ones in their neck because those tend to be the ones that get swollen if you're fighting an infection or you have a sore throat. But what people are finally coming to recognize is that you also have lymph nodes under the armpit, along the sternum, the intercostals, the chest, the abdomen are rich in lymph nodes, the top of the thigh, a little behind the elbow, a little behind the knee, in the brain as well, the glymphatic system

that helps filter out bacteria and toxins and plaque. And your lymph system is what we refer to as the circulatory system of your immune system. So it provides surveillance in your gut for foodborne illness. It helps absorb the excess fat in your gut. And it absorbs and transports what we call this extracellular fluid that contains bacteria, toxins, viruses, pathogens, whisks it away to the lymph nodes where they filter out the debris so the fluid returns back to your bloodstream that then later gets processed through liver, kidneys, et cetera, and removed through the bowels or other ways it gets removed. Sometimes you can sweat it out, but a lot of that extracellular fluid that exists in your body needs to get processed through the lymph nodes before it goes back to the bloodstream. That's why we call it the great recycling system of the body.

Wow. Okay. That was an amazing description. It's a little much. No, I love it. I also, I love that you mentioned T cells because there's been a lot of talk about T cell immunity, possibly with this virus. That's right. Can you talk a little bit about T cells and what they, I don't really know, are they in the lymph fluid themselves?

So the T cells mature in your thymus. Your thymus stops maturing, producing them. But what happens is in those lymph nodes, when your body brings toxins material to the lymph nodes, your body goes through this process of sampling what it is. And that's where you sort of, I don't want to get too bogged into adaptive immunity, you know, versus your innate immunity. But, you know, I don't know how many of your listeners understand that difference, which is some things that you, your body knows to fight off. And then some things your body doesn't know how to fight off, but then acquires that ability to fight it off. So a lot of that does go on inside the

lymph node. So those fighter T cells that do fight cancer, sometimes what happens is it doesn't recognize it. And that's where we also get into some of the autoimmune issues that go on in the body and the job of the lymph system is to absorb and transport that fluid to get released and to get fleshed out does that make sense yes exactly so essentially the the lymph fluid is what kind of goes after the virus or the toxin or whatever it is right right? And then flushes it out. Let me break it down a little easier to comprehend, I think. So your lymph system runs like rivers all through your body, similar to the bloodstream. We kind of all learn in middle school or elementary school about the circulatory system that is our blood system that gets pumped by the heart, right? Those blood capillaries,

we all know, run through our body. Your lymph system has lymph vessels that similarly run all throughout your body like rivers. Their job is to pick up the excess fluid that the blood capillaries push out. So your blood capillaries, the fluid seeps out and it hangs into that interstitial fluid space just underneath the skin before the muscle bed, right? That what we call that interstitial fluid space, your blood capillaries, they squeeze out about 20 liters a day, 17% of it, it reabsorbs the bloodstream. So some of that, you know, T cells gets into that bloodstream that gets filtered out. But what happens is that there's a three liter extracellular fluid that becomes lymph. Got it. And that I think is the

part that people don't always understand is it's like that excess fluid that you kind of find when you're draining your coffee that kind of gets left in that coffee filter right or if you're making pasta and you have a strainer that extra little but what happens that people I think forget about with your lymph system and it's easy to forget about it, is if you don't continually move that three liters of fluid per day, you will eventually swell up, right? Like a big hot air balloon. And that's what your lymph system is responsible for doing is maintaining the homeostasis, that fluid balance in your body, and to sweep up and pick up that extra, even the extra germs that hang out on your kitchen floor. Oh, it's so interesting. Does that make sense? Does that kind of help you understand how it works with your immune system? It's not necessarily a separate

entity, although it is a separate system that interacts with every system in your body to help regulate and maintain balance and flush out extra toxins. Yes. Okay. It does make sense. Yep. It all, it works together. Yes. It works together. We just forget about it because for so long it was, it had, it was very hard to detect. It's very invisible in a way. People like to call it the invisible system of the body and people didn't really understand how it worked for a very long time. And now we have imagery that's capable of showing us how it works, which is how I'm going to jump ahead. You probably have a lot of questions for me, which is why it took until 2012 to understand

we have a lymph system in our brain. Interesting. Right. to understand we have a lymph system in our brain. Interesting. Right, which most of us in the lymphatic community always understood, but it wasn't properly imaged or really scientifically researched until 2012 when it was properly imaged and shown how it works with the cerebral spinal fluid to clear out amyloid plaque in the brain when you sleep. Okay, so this goes back to something that I was reading about actually pretty recently that one of the thousands of reasons why sleep is so important for us

is that your brain like flushes out certain things, so the plaque that you mentioned, that helps keep Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, stuff like that at bay. MS, yeah. Yeah, okay. The like that at bay. MS, yeah. Yeah. Okay. So neurodegenerative diseases. Yeah.

And so it's those, what did you call them again? The glymphocytes? Is that what that is? So the glial cells, G-L-I-A-L, glial cells and the lymphatic system work with their cerebral spinal fluid to help get rid of the plaque in the brain when you sleep. That is why sleep is so important. And I have so many people who come to me for sessions. And one of my main questions is, are you sleeping? And if you're not sleeping, it's one of the first things I want to help somebody get on track. Otherwise, you're on a hamster wheel. And you can have as many lymphatic massages as you want.

But what you really need to do is clean up other areas of your life that can keep you congested, keep you in brain fog, keep your body from proper detoxification. Okay. Well, add that to the many reasons why sleep is so important. I want to backtrack just a little bit. So you had mentioned that we have lymph nodes in our stomachs and our gut. Yes, yes, yes. And I'm very intrigued by that. This is something that I don't know much about,

but I would assume knowing what we know, that around 70% of our immune system is in our gut, that those lymph nodes play a role in that. That's right. That's right. So the lymph nodes and the lymph vessels in the gut are called the lacteals, and they have a bunch of jobs. They surround the small intestine,

and they provide your first line of defense against foodborne illness. They're constantly monitoring, again, for what's harmful, what pathogens are harmful. They also help absorb the excess fatty acids and fat soluble vitamins and hormones and that thoracic duct, which is the largest lymphatic vessel in your body that helps bring the fluid from the lower half of your body back up towards the bloodstream, up towards the heart, that all that fluid comes into that thoracic duct and it originates at the cisterna chyli. And I don't know how familiar you are with the cisterna chyli, but it's sort of like that

sac in the deep in the abdomen. That's that becomes that chyliferous milky white color. That's when lymph becomes that fatty white color. And it takes that excess fat and brings that back up and turns it into fuel through the bloodstream. So there's a lot going on in the gut. There's a lot of, like I said, first line of defense for disease, monitoring your microbiome for what is harmful, what is not harmful, absorbing the excess lipids and proteins and fatty acids that is too big to get absorbed into the regular bloodstream. It's one of the other roles the lymph system does. If something's too big for the blood vessels, the lymph will grab it, including excess hormones that can be too big. So it provides a lot in the gut, and that's a lot of why so many people love those before and after pictures of lymph massage therapists,

because you can really help mitigate some of that bloating and inflammation that occurs in the abdomen through working in the stomach, which in the West United States has been a taboo area for massage therapists for a very long time, whereas in Europe and other areas, it is not. Why is it taboo here? Do you know? is unfortunately there's been some inappropriate massage therapists who um use um there's been some inappropriate touching going on that there's some inappropriate i mean literally i i literally had somebody say to me over Instagram, you know, they said, Oh, my massage therapist said they have to go intravaginally in order to work my lymph nodes. Yes.

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It's O-R-G-A-N-I-F-I dot com slash real foodology. Yeah. And I'm like, yeah, no, that's somebody taking advantage. And so unfortunately, you know, in the massage field, you do have people who have abused their profession for inappropriate behavior. However, there's also a lot of, and I hope this is okay to be discussing on your podcast. I'm down to, yeah, honestly, the more taboo, the better. I'm like, I love to talk about things that people are uncomfortable about.

So we have to air it out, you know? We have to talk about it. I don't think there's enough discussion about it in the massage therapy community about some of the restrictions that have happened. But, you know, if somebody has a degree in lymphedema therapy and you have permission from your client, you can touch the breasts and you can touch the stomach. And unless you're with a physical therapist who really specializes in it,

I mean, I have worked with a physical therapist who is specialized in working in the pelvic floor, but you don't need to work inappropriately in order to work the lymph nodes. It's what I want people to understand and question your practitioner if that's what they're suggesting. But you can work in the stomach and be appropriate. It is true that men tend to get,

they can get turned on. They can get an erection if you're massaging in the belly. I mean, listen, men can get turned on just looking at you. I love men. So it's not a diss on men, but I think, you know, as a practitioner, you have to be very careful of your boundaries and have those discussions. But it's so important to touch people's breasts or to touch their stomach if you are licensed to do so. But what I also like to do is to get people to touch their own stomach and to touch their own breasts because you can really affect the inflammation in your body yourself. That's cool. That's actually something that I want to get into in a second because I want people to walk away with this, with some actionable things that they can do at home. I love talking about free medicine per se, where things that people can do at home,

because I want this to be as available for everyone as possible. But there was one other thing that you'd mentioned that I wanted to touch on. So you'd mentioned that it helps in the stomach get rid of like extra hormones or in the gut. And I'm curious about that. So is that why oftentimes we see bloating in women due to hormone imbalance? Right. I mean, yes, when you look at the literature for women going through perimenopause and menopause, right? They often talk about that muffin top stomach. Yeah. Don't they?

Yeah, I guess kind of in the back. Yes, those love handles and the muffin top around the jeans. There's a lot that changes with women, obviously, and women during their cycles. And one of the things I talk a lot about is when you have your period, you have that shluffing off. I like to call it the shluffing off period where you get bloated right before you have your period. And sometimes the breasts hurt, the breasts can get inflamed. And then you have your period and there's that hurt, the breasts can get inflamed. And then you have your

period and there's that wonderful shuffling off and people are sometimes two or three pounds lighter. Right. It's sort of like that flushing mechanism. But when a woman is going through perimenopause or menopause, the hormones are changing. Your metabolism is changing is the other thing to recognize with that. And that shuffling off period goes away. So that relief from bloating, that relief from breast tenderness or breast inflammation, breast circulation, diminishes. And it's just such a juicy time for women

to work with themselves, work with their nutritionist, really pay more attention to their diet, to alcohol, dairy, nuts, things that stress your lymphatic system, your metabolism. And do self-massage or get regular massage in that area to keep that lymphatic circulation from helping to flush out that extra inflammation. Does that answer your question? Yeah, it's really interesting. Okay, so maybe towards the end, we can talk about like a massage that women can do on or around their period

to kind of help alleviate some of that bloating. Yes. Yeah, it's interesting. I've had some lymphatic drainage massages before. And one of the first things that I noticed was when they were massaging my stomach, I had all these like gurgling sounds happening in my stomach. It kind of like activated my digestive system. What's happening there? I want to know.

It's so great. I always like to tell people when that happens, it's like what we used to say after eating it, what the French say after eating a French meal, if you burp, that's a compliment to the chef, right? So it's a very similar thing. It's sort of like a compliment to your body that your system is responding, right? The organs in your abdomen have a motility. It's called peristalsis. It's the movement. And they need to have their proper motility and movement in order to absorb, in order to secrete, in order for proper function. And what people don't understand is we often hold a lot of stress and emotions in our gut. There's so much emphasis in massage placed on how we hold a lot of tension

in our shoulders. And you can rub that out with a deep tissue massage. But people trap and repress emotions in their stomach. A lot of people have constipation issues, bowel issues. You know, we're trying to be perfect. We're trying to hold our shit together. I can say that on airwaves. I hope so. Right? And I can't tell you how many people have constipation that they've had since they were teenagers.

And when you ask them about it, it relates back emotionally. And so, and again, who is touching your abdomen? Maybe your lover, maybe your mother, but that is it. And it's not often, and it's not for a long sustained period to increase that motility and peristalsis of those organs. You, I listen, I love massage. I love having my back rubbed and my neck rubbed your limbs. You can live without a limb, but there's not a lot of organs in your abdomen. You can't live without, right? And we are not massaging them. And literally I have seen in my clients in the past 27 years, and I've been teaching lymphatic self-massage for years you can affect change and continual change with your bowel movements just by rubbing your

stomach in the direction of your colon that ascending transverse descending colon towards that left hip we could get into the anatomy of it later but interesting you can have ownership and empowerment for not a lot of money. It's expensive to keep continual lymph treatments going. So I want to empower people to take a little ownership and work on themselves on a regular basis. Usually if you're watching TV, you could just work on yourself. It doesn't have to be 45 minutes a day, every single day. Okay, that's amazing. I also wanted to ask you, what are, so I'm a nutritionist with a master's in human health. And so I really study the body and the way that food affects our body. So I know a little bit about this, but I don't know specifically when it comes to the lymphatic system. Are there certain foods that affect it, maybe help the lymphatic system? Things that I would have my guesses of foods that would hinder the lymphatic system as well. Yes, and what would you call those?

Highly inflammatory. Right. Toxic. I mean, it's my understanding from what i've read um and just from knowing the way that foods affect our bodies i would guess you know like highly inflammatory toxic oils like canola oil um i mean i wonder if like pesticides maybe play a role in it as well in our food i mean trans fats we could go on the high level talking about all pesticides, all chemicals, all food additives, right? Processed foods, carcinogenic foods, the toxins in our home and in our environment,

what's going on in our water. It fascinates me that one of the largest per capita women who get breast cancer are located in Marin County, which is Northern California, which is, there's a lot of people who are eating healthy and organic food, but you're sort of like, what's going on in the soil? What's going on in the air? What are the unknown toxins in our environment? Right? So there's a whole toxic environmental layer that's going on. Then, yes, you're talking about pesticides. And then we get further down into obviously alcohol, obviously smoking, obviously sometimes for people, gluten, the gluten in our country, right? The breads in our country is very different than

in Europe. The additives, the GMOs. Even down to the grains. Yeah, the the gmo and they use more like grains heirloom or so sorry to interrupt you they use more like heirloom ancient grains which maybe a lot of people don't know that so i wanted to point that out yes no i appreciate that um and then down to obviously you know certain certain types of um fast foods not certain times, most all fast foods there, there's such a list of, I think it's pretty easy to know what you shouldn't be eating in a way. Yes, there are certain foods that can help your digestion. I sometimes am careful about giving people a long list of things that are good for them because I don't know what's going on

with a particular person. I can say purple staining, red staining foods and fruits and vegetables are great for the blood circulation and lymph circulation according to Ayurvedic medicine. However, some people have SIBO and they can't eat a lot of raw foods. There are certain people who can't have certain herbs. There's people who are going through chemotherapy that can't take certain supplements. So I try to

avoid an overall sweeping generalization of what people should eat. That's why I throw people back to a nutritionist that can look at their particular blood work, their hormone levels, what's going on in their body. I know I'm, I'm not trying to evade your question. No, I don't. Yeah, this is a great answer. But I think it's really, I think it's really important. I mean, I'm a really big fan of the right for your blood type diet. That happens to work for me and my family. It doesn't, not everything is 100% all the time, though. Not everybody can be vegan. Not everybody can be carnivore.

Right? So it's easy to say, yes, pay attention to what doesn't agree with you. I knew at an early age orange juice didn't agree with me. Avocados't agree with me and it's a superfood no I know right that doesn't mean that that doesn't mean that I can't occasionally have an avocado but it's not my superfood every day yeah it's interesting I'm so glad that you brought this up because I talk about this a lot um on my Instagram as well with like people that I work with. We are all bio individual as humans. So what works for me may not work for you and vice versa. What works for you may not work for me. So I try, like you said as well, like I do the same thing. I never, it's why I don't give, um, very specific, like

you should eat this and only this. And I constantly am telling people, I'm like, if there, if there is a quote unquote nutritional professional, or I don't even want to say quotes, but if there is someone saying like, this is the only diet, like if you don't do this, you're unhealthy. I say run for the hills. Right. Because they're ignoring the very basic fact that we are so bio-individual that again, it really comes down to what's going

on in your body specifically. Absolutely. And at certain times, your body is going to need different things. Obviously, I'm sure as a nutritionist, you recommend eating with the seasons. Yes. Right. And you recommend sometimes you need bone broth, but sometimes you need, sometimes you're more acidic and sometimes your body's too hot. So I think it's really important to become sensitive and listen to your body.

And yes, there's certain things to avoid and there's certain things that you know you feel good when you eat and I hope that's important for people to understand and the the use of probiotics the use of digestive bitters I think that can also be highlighted about the importance of your gut and the gut lining and really helping maintain that important microbiome that goes on in your gut. I'm sure you talk about that all the time. All the time. Yeah. You know, and I heard this doctor say this recently, and I was so like moved by this because I thought it was so true. She was answering a question that someone

had asked her about what to eat. And she said, look, in the most basic terms, we need to get back to eating real food, less food in packages, and we need to get back in touch with our innate knowing of what to eat. And I thought that she was so spot on with that because I think we've, we've forgotten that like at the most basic level, we're animals too. And we have these like innate knowing inside of us. Like we know how to properly feed ourselves, but we're getting, for lack of a better word, annihilated by like processed crappy junk food in our, in our, you know, industrialized food system now. And we've kind of forgotten how to get back to the basics. Like we've kind of untaught ourself how to trust our instincts when it comes to eating. Thank you.

And we can get very moved by social media or the news on what is the latest. Oh, this person is saying this is the latest and this is the most important. And I'm not saying there's not value. You and I both say things that are important. Yeah, of course. But to also listen within. Does that resonate with you? Does that feel good?

Have you tried that and it didn't agree with you? So maybe you know it's not for you. Yeah. I mean, I'm trying to teach that to my kids. They know how they feel after they eat something. It's immediate. Yeah. And I say that. I tell people that too.

Like start making notes, you know, mental notes or keep a note in your phone and just start recognizing on the days that you don't feel as well, make notes of what you ate that day and you'll start seeing a pattern and then you're able to kind of help yourself. And of course, like you do this with the help of a professional, if you really are struggling with something serious. But I always joke that it's kind of like, it's like a science experiment with your own body where you kind of just make note of what works and what doesn't work. And then you also, of course, sprinkle in the advice of professionals and say, okay, well, this person said, this is really good for me, but like, does it feel good when I eat this? Like, maybe this isn't good for me, but this is. And you brought up avocado as a perfect

example. Like we hear constantly everywhere, avocado is so good for us, but if you don't feel good after you eat it, it's not good for you. It's so true. It's so true. And guess what? There's nothing wrong with me that it doesn't I don't feel bad because it's not my superfood. I'm not getting mad at myself about it. And, you know, the Dalai Lama has a saying, and he said, healing occurs when there's faith of the patient in the practitioner, the practitioner in the patient and the karma between the two. And it's so beautiful and so profound because how many times have, I'm sure your clients come to you and said, you know, I worked with this very famous or popular nutritionist and what she or he said didn't really work for me. But they're supposed to be this, you know, super great nutritionist.

And that doesn't mean they're not great for some people. But to really listen, your body's going to tell you maybe that doctor is giving you way too many supplements that's making your stomach sick or maybe they're subscribed prescribing you a diet that doesn't feel good so to going back again to that innate being sensitive trusting your intuition building that intuitive muscle and trusting what your body is sensing energetically about who you're working with. Yeah, this is so, so important. This was one of the things that they really hammered into us in my program. My master's program was that you have to remember, and this is really important when you're dealing with your doctor, like always remember this, that

the doctor is obviously the expert in the human body. And, or if you're seeing a nutritionist, they're the expert in diets and nutrition and all that, but you are the expert of your own body. No one else knows what's going on in your body, except for you. So you have to, it's, it's a, you know, it's a relationship and you come to the table with everything that you know about your own body. You come with the expertise of what you know, and then they come and say like, okay, well, judging on what you're telling me, then this is what I know. And it's, you know, it's a relationship.

You work together. You know, it's, I love that you say that I work with a lot of people who've gone through cancer treatment or are newly diagnosed with cancer. And obviously, you know, my parents' generation just put their complete faith and trust in the doctor. And what has happened, I think, in the past 50 or 60 years is people really, doctors have really had to specialize in a field and their overall sweeping knowledge about the way everything affects the body has changed. And I love to encourage and empower people to have those conversations with their oncologist or with their surgeon about what else can they be doing? Because they don't always

know. They don't always recommend a diet to support chemotherapy, or they don't always necessarily understand the implications their surgery will have on their lymph system, which can cause lymphedema when they have lymph nodes removed. I'm not saying don't have lymph nodes removed, but it's how can you educate yourself, not in a scary WebD, go down a dark, scary path online, but empowering yourself to ask the questions, to have the relationship with your doctor that you believe has their high, your highest healing potential in their vision. That is so important. That is so important. And I do want to make a note here. So no one thinks

like, I'm not saying that Google is now like your doctor by any means. I really think that it's, it's, I hope it's obvious that it's very important still to see a professional. But it, like I said, you need to come in with your own sense of yourself as well. Cause it really is a thing, like you said, like you work together and you, you learn the questions, the right questions to ask. Yeah. Oh, I'd love this. This is so. We've totally gone like on a random tangent. I don't know. I know. I love it though. I think it's such an important thing that people really need to hear.

And I think ultimately what it really comes back to again is just eating more real foods and less processed packaged foods for supporting your health. In addition to food, your lymph system, different than the cardiovascular system, doesn't have a central pump to move it. And at this point, a lot of people already know that about the lymph system, is it depends on your muscle movement to help propel that fluid towards the lymph nodes for detoxification. I believe that's why your lymph nodes are sort of located in the hubs of your body that I like to call the hinges of your body, the neck, the armpit, the stomach, knees, backs of the knees, tops of the thighs, elbows, right? They get the most muscle contraction movement. However,

what exercise, it's important for your lymph system, that muscle contraction that intrinsically moves your lymph forward. But when you're doing your own lymphatic self-massage, or you're getting a lymph massage that's very specific, more specific in the lymph nodes themselves, that's going to really increase your absorption and transportation rate that I think people sometimes forget when they say, oh, I'm just going to exercise, or I'm just going to sweat it out. It's different for every person. And that's what I love about lymph massage is it's contouring your hands can really, you can feel the change in tissue quality to really move out that extra inflammation. And I just want people to understand when we do, when we talk about the lymph system, we do talk about a sort of larger piece of pie and all the elements that go together to get the

most benefits out of your lymph system, including diet and exercise and sleep and movement and massage and joy and taking care of your emotional life. Yeah. Oh, and that reminds me, it was something that you'd mentioned earlier that I just wanted to say. It's so interesting how it really, it comes back to the mind and body connection. It's all connected. I can't tell you how many times I see people in my practice, people I see, let's say I see them once every two weeks or once a month, and they'll come to me and all of a sudden they're so much more inflamed

than they were two weeks ago. And we go through the list of what's been going on. Did you have an injury or did you do this? Have you been eating like crap? Have you been drinking a lot? Have you been having a good time, partying, whatever it is? And guess what it is? Stress.

Wow. So inflammatory. In two weeks, stress. Oh, God. I know. Not to stress y'all out about your stress level. But, you know, I speak a lot about like rainbows and moonbeams person, although I do like choose that, but that affects that it's, it's productive to bring joy and happiness into your life. It really does alter the cellular chemistry of your body. It's not unproductive to go seek joy. No, I mean, we, I was blown away when I was in school. Um, we had a whole class on this and there's actual studies that show that we can change our brain chemistry.

We can change the way that our cells function and move throughout the body based on our thoughts and our feelings, which I will be completely honest. Before I took that class, I was a little like, uh, I don't know. Like I want to see the science. Yes, of course. Because I'm very like factual science based. Like I want to see, I want to see some proof and we have scientific studies that prove it. Brain scans. It's really, it's pretty incredible. Yes. Yes. That's where science is so wonderful, how it can back up things that we innately know to be true. Exactly. Yeah.

That's so true. Oh, it's so interesting. Okay. So you, you barely touched on this, but I want to dive into, um, well, of course, ways that people can do this at home, but also, um also what are some things besides the massages that we will get into next that you can do to support your lymphatic system, whether that be exercises or maybe meditations, any sort of like, Oh, thank you for that. The other thing I wanted to remind people of. So obviously exercising is wonderful to help increase your lymphatic

circulation. Sleep is really important. Hydration. Way back in the day when they were looking for a cure for lymphedema, they gave people diuretics. They thought they needed to drain that fluid. But what they realized happens is that that fluid actually got more fibrotic and hard. You actually need water and hydration to help bathe those cells and help move them out through the lymph system. So drinking water is really important. Obviously, clean water. Hopefully, you understand that. Yep, filter.

Meditation is great. The piece that I'll throw in there is deep breathing. So the lymph vessels in the gut that we talked about that need that muscle contraction, that they pump and take that excess fluid from the lower half of your body back up through your bloodstream when you do that deep diaphragmatic breathing. So I'll encourage people just spend a few minutes, do some deep diaphragmatic where you inhale and expand your breath, exhale and relax your abdomen. That's going to help propel lymph through that very large lymphatic vessel called the thoracic duct. Yoga, obviously great. Inversions are great. Rebounding trampolines, swimming,

just going for a walk is great. Putting your legs up the wall is great. Obviously eating healthy is wonderful. So infrared, I'm a big fan of infrared sauna. So obviously I work with the part of the population that sometimes is very sensitive to heat. And so this is the thing that you'll need. Who is that? What do you mean the part of population? Can you explain that? So. People with a compromised lymphatic system due to sometimes cancer, treatment, radiation, lymph node removal, surgeries, but also some people who are prone to hereditary conditions such as constant ankle swelling or people who have the under know, the underdeveloped, misdeveloped lymph system. Eczema is a great example. People who have MS, sometimes they're very heat sensitive. And so I just like to mention that because you might read online a lot about hydrotherapy going back and forth between extreme

cold and extreme heat is good for your lymph system. And people can do this in the shower for those listening that don't. Oh, no. Oh, no. So, so yeah. So this is where I want to caution your listener. Okay. This goes, this is where I sort of go, but wait, because not every butt, that doesn't work for everyone. And this is where you need to know yourself. And this is, this is again, that not every diet works for everyone. Yeah. That extreme temperature change. We tell people who are at risk for lymphedema or inflammation, you don't want extreme temperature changes like that.

I've never heard this. I know, I know, but it's all over. If you're a lymphedema therapist, this is what we've seen. What can happen is those lymph vessels that open and close to propel your lymph are really sensitive. A lot of them are right underneath the surface of your skin.

They're really superficial and they can spasm. It's called hyperemia. They can spasm and either stay open or stay closed, not forever, but long enough to kind of backlog and trap that fluid. So for somebody like you, who you don't, I don't know you very well, but you don't seem like you have chronic lymph congestion.

Whereas my lymphedema patients or my lymphedema patients do. Their lymph is not flowing as freely due to a myriad of factors. So for them, it can actually cause them more inflammation. Wow. Okay. So you won't hear me recommend that to the general public. I might recommend it if I know you. That's really interesting. Okay. So for, I imagine when you think of who's saying that, look at who is that coming from? If you, I think this is the one piece that I'd like people to, to look, to learn, to

look at the background of who's giving them that information. How much have they studied the lymph system? Yeah, that's a great point. Always be cautious of the people you're getting information from. But it's not that they're not trying to give you good information. It's the same thing with the people who are doing deep tissue or deep foam rolling or those deep tools. Oh, the Theragun thing? Is that what it is? The Theragun or those wooden tools or like deep work. I mean, I went and I had a massage at a very reputable, popular chain. And the therapist afterwards says to me, he's like,

and I just, you know, we just worked with your lymph system. I'm like, you so did not. And I understand it's something everyone, a bandwagon, everybody wants to jump on. But if you're speaking in generals, that's when I would caution because not everybody can handle that. A lot of people have a lot more congestion in their tissues, and that's going to adversely affect them. I had a client who had breast cancer, and one of her therapists says, put on black clothing, go for a hike in extreme hot weather. And you're like, no. I'm like, that is going to cause you more inflammation. Wow.

I mean, you make a great point, and I'm so glad you brought this up. So I want to ask you then for people that are listening that are maybe now saying, oh, am I one of those people? What would be signs of that going on and that would encourage them to go see someone like you? So, I mean, those people do find me, you know, those are the people who let's say they've had eczema and they've been doing hot yoga or they've been in a hot sauna and they get more inflamed or they get more rashes or they get more inflammation. That's a sign. Somebody who goes, somebody who had an injury and you put ice on it, you know, they're now changing how often they recommend ice. You know, it's important in the beginning, but then long term, sometimes that can block your lymph flow. That extreme temperature. Infrared sauna is what I love about infrared sauna, different than your typical hot, the hot topical sauna, the traditional sauna, which your typical sauna is just heating your top layer of your skin.

But what's awesome about an infrared sauna is it's warming you in the deep cellular level, which is what's so awesome and fantastic about infrared. If you are somebody who can't take heat, if you get an infrared biomat, you can have all the benefits and keep it at room temperature. I mean, body temperature. You don't have to turn it up really high to get down to the cellular level. Same thing in infrared sauna. It doesn't have to be so up really high to get down to the cellular level. Same thing in infrared sauna.

It doesn't have to be so hot that you can't handle it. There's so many benefits that come from being in it. Sorry if I'm rambling again. No, no, no, no. I love this. I think it's such great information. And I mean, I'm like, I'm intrigued by it because I actually, I have one of those sauna bags that I use at home to sweat out.

I believe it's an infrared sauna bag, but no, I find this incredibly interesting. And again, you know, it comes full circle back to, we're bio-individual and we all need to, um, take note of what's going on in our bodies and then act accordingly and figure out what works best for us. That's right. It's just like, you wouldn't wouldn't tell somebody to do the same type of exercise. Exactly. You wouldn't give somebody sprints and marathon training if they're just coming out of surgery. Yep, exactly.

So just know where you are on your lymphatic health continuum as I like to educate people. Okay, amazing. Thank people. Okay. Amazing. Thank you. Okay. So we have alluded to this a few times, but if you could give people some actionable ways, we'd mentioned earlier,

I would love a way to massage the stomach area for when women are either starting their period or on it. Yes. We'd love to just have a few actionable things to take away. So you can always go on my Instagram at the lymphatic message. Um, and we'll add that in the show notes too. Yeah. I post a lot of free tutorials, um, to show you if people are just listening to the podcast and they're not watching, I'll try to walk you through, um, how to work with your lymph system. But what's really important to know when you're doing lymphatic self-massage is I always like people to massage their quote-unquote main drains.

The neck, the armpit, the abdomen, the top of the thigh. If you're not going to do anything else, do those things. Those are where your main lymph node clusters are located, where those white blood cells and macrophages and lymphocytes filter out the toxins. I love to get people to touch their breasts. Touch your own breasts. Right? So when you are working with your lymphatic system, a majority of it rests superficially underneath the surface of the skin before the muscle bed. That's again, why if somebody is giving you a deep tissue massage, and they're telling you, you worked with the lymph system, that's not actually accurate,

unless you can work deeper in the abdomen. But your lymph system runs the lymph vessels that collect and propel that fluid, a lot of them go, they run horizontally. So when you're working, you want to stay in that horizontal plane of fluid underneath the surface of the skin before the muscle bed so you go lightly you and you go gently i like to tell people sort of like working with that top layer of whipped cream or or foam on your cappuccino secondly so you know you're working gently you're working lightly secondly what i want you to know is you're working slowly your lymph vessels that propel your lymph fluid, they open and close about six to 12 times per minute. So we want to stay in that seaweed undulating, I say those words often, in this beautiful river ocean concept of moving

your fluid. We are not, I always, my type A people who like to do everything kind of like fast and perfect and great. I'm like, you're right. I mean, I love you, but I'm like, let's be a type B person. Slow it down. Slow it down. There's so much grooviness and productivity happening when you chill. So take it slow. Take it easy. Respect your lymph. Move slowly. We are not going in a circle. So if you see somebody on Instagram massaging themselves in a circle, again, question that. That means you're just pushing the fluid back to where you began. Oh, okay.

The lymph vessels are like heart-shaped chambers that open and close that move fluid from one valve to the next so when you're doing in a circle you're just pushing it around in a circle yeah so you are i always um encourage people sort of like a half circle like a crescent moon is what i like to say like a long c-stroke you move a little pick it up move it again working pressure resting pressure right so if someone's you don't want to move it back moving in direction towards the lymph nodes then the um so those are the main like i'm trying to point jog them off yeah that's great lightly slowly nurturing superficial undulating rivers let's begin so let's massage yourself so understanding the map of where your fluid drains the fluid from your head and neck is going to

drain into the right left right and left lymphatic ducts in the hollow above your collarbone so you're going to find the hollow above your collarbone okay And with your fingertips, I always like to try to tell people, contour, cup your hand, cup your skin, skin on skin contact wherever, wherever possible. It's a light stroke down, sort of like you're petting your dog or your cat. I love that. Right? If you're a mama or a papa, and when your baby was really young, they're like pudgy they're like soft tissue they don't really have muscles yet so it's just that fluid layer underneath the surface of the skin before the muscle bit that looks really that looks lovely one of the other things i love about working with the lymph is it helps um encourage that parasympathetic rest and digest.

Okay? Very important. Very important. That's where healing occurs. That's what lymph works on. I was thinking about this this morning, you know, that catchphrase, no pain, no gain? Yeah. A lot of people love that.

That's like the opposite of lymph. No pain, all gain. No pain, all gain. No pain, all gain no pain all gain no pain yeah no pain all gain okay like let's be nurturing and light and loving and gentle towards ourselves it starts here now let's work in the armpit so place your hand underneath your armpit and the stroke is straight up you're pumping straight up i also like to yes i sort of also like to grab my side boob. I do have side boob. I mean, same. Don't we all? Don't we all? Even men have side boob.

That is a pumping fluid that's going straight up. So the other people, people, the other question people ask me all the time is what about oil? What about using oil and lotion and stuff? Typically, traditionally, again, I'm very classically trained. So I'm going to give you the classical answer first. And then, you know, obviously therapists have evolved the work as I have too. Traditionally, we don't use oil and we don't use lotion because that's just going to slick and glide over those lymph vessels. So, yes, when you go and you get a professional treatment, they're probably going to use a lotion or an oil. Hopefully, they're not using a ton of it. Yeah, and hopefully like a clean one as well.

Hopefully a clean one. You don't want any toxins. Clog up anymore. But when you're working on yourself, skin-on-skin contact. Okay? Yes. You can go over your clothes if there's people around. I mean, I'm often at a dinner party massaging my armpits.

Do you do this at dinner parties? Just like teach people like and everyone? I don't. I try to be a nice guest. I try to be like not talking about my work all the time. But you have someone making the like armpit farts. I know. That would be my dad.

That was me and my brother growing up. We like lit our farts on fire and made the fart noise in our armpits. Love it. But I just silently, quietly rub my pits or rub my neck if I'm drinking wine because I get really, wine doesn't agree with me. But if I'm going to have it, I'll just start massaging my neck. That's interesting. Yeah. I mean, some people get, you know, really right away, like sugar. If I eat sugar, my neck right away, I'll just, I'll get a sore throat. Let's massage over the chest. So above your breast. Can I ask you a quick question?

Any question. Since we're still under the armpits. So I'm just going Can I ask you a quick question while, since we're still under the armpit. So I'm, I'm just going to assume that, you know, a little bit about this, I hope, but I've heard because our lymph nodes, we have some right here in the armpit, but this is why your deodorant is so important. And why all the time. Okay. And I've had this for centuries. Yes. So same. So I've been using a natural aluminum free deodorant for the past like 12 years because I read that there could be a connection between breast cancer and aluminum and the deodorant that we use because our lymph nodes are right here so close to our breasts. Is there a connection? I don't even understand why people are putting those chemicals directly on their skin. Your skin is

an absorbent organ. It is going to absorb that 60% of what you put on it and has to go through your lymph system. So you are taxing your lymph system. You're putting toxins, just like you said, directly into your lymph nodes, those axillary lymph nodes in your armpit. What are people doing? I say, ditch your deodorant altogether. Great. I love it. I mean, I think during COVID, a lot of people have because they don't have to go out. Yeah, they're not leaving the house. If you're eating clean and cutting back on the onions and garlic, you're not going to smell as much. I mean, my brother will listen to this and he'll be like, Lisa, you totally smell. But I mean, I literally have not been wearing deodorant for probably 25 years.

Occasionally, if I have to be somewhere, I will out of respect to who I'm with. But I mean, even in my own practice, I rarely wear it. You know, it's interesting you say that because I find myself, I probably wear deodorant once a week or every like two weeks, because I also noticed that the cleaner my diet got and the more like I got rid of processed foods and all the junk, the less I sweat and the less I started smelling. Yes. I have worked with so many people who have so much inflammation in their armpit and red discoloration from the deodorants. And people will say to me, but I can't get rid of my, I'm not going to name the browns. And I'm like, yes, you can.

Yes, you can. And guess what happens when they get rid of that deodorant? They start doing lymph massage on their armpits. The inflammation goes down and the skin color changes. I mean, I've worked with people who I don't even have to get to their armpit. We work other areas of the body on the lymph system and the color will change everywhere else because your lymph is systemic. So you work lymph nodes in one area and you're going to start to feel that suction effect

in the rest of your body. Wow, that's so interesting. And one more thing I want to say about deodorant that I think is so important that people don't often think about, antiperspirants. You're blocking your body's ability to get rid of toxins. We sweat for a reason. It's just like peeing. Your body has to get rid of it somehow. Thank you. So if you don't, if you block your body's ability to get sweat that out, it's just going to circulate, I would assume in your lymph, right? And circulate throughout your body and they get congested. Those toxins are going to build And they get congested.

Those toxins are going to build up and get congested. That's right. Yeah. Okay. I thought that was really important to note. Okay. So now let's go back to, yes, let's go back to touching your breasts. Everybody touch your breasts now. Unless if you're driving, then please don't. I mean, unless you're at a stop sign. No, I'm kidding. So again, skin on skin contact wherever possible. But I will do this if I'm watching TV. I don't care if my husband or kids are around. You know, I'm like, let's just touch our breasts. So again, we're not, it's not a circle. Oh, yeah.

Right? You caught me. I caught you, babe. So that's like a half moon, right? A half moon on the actual breast because I'm a Californian. I kind of am like talking about a rainbow here, right? So it's sort of like a rainbow, that upside down C. Everything's a C.

It's not necessarily so up, but it's just a little hump. It's just like a kind of camel hump, and you're making your way towards the armpit. Okay, some of that breast tissue drains to the intercostals at the sternum, right? So you can sort of like do that tapping. People love that tapping. But you can also sort of, sort of like it in and out right along the sternum. This is also great for anxiety, the breast, massaging the breast towards the armpit, cup underneath the breast. Again, another PSA for ditch the wires. I have some gorgeous bras and sometimes only the gorgeous bras come with wires. I just yank that wire out. Oh, I didn't even know you could do that.

Who says I can't yank that out? There's a little hole or if not, you can make a hole. So I mean, we cut our shirts and we cut our jeans you can cut the wires out if people are complaining they can't find a pretty enough wire if that's not free the titty i don't know what it is that's amazing who knew we'd be talking about like all this i am here for it i love it wait so will you, for people that are listening that don't understand why, why ditch the wire? Yeah. Um, so listen, I'm a large breasted lady. Okay. My tits don't stand up to attention. They never have. It's just who I am. My part of your basic anatomy, not sure, never happened for me. Okay. I'm, I've always been so jealous of, like, the perfect titty little pointed ladies.

Like, love you. Same. But it's all gravity is going to take a turn at some point. So I understand my large-breasted ladies. I'm one of you. The need to lift your tatas so they're not at your waist. I get it, okay? But what happens is those wires can cut off, not forever,

but they can tap and cut that lymph circulation of that breast tissue. So the lymph vessels that run like rivers that are superficially located underneath the surface of your skin, it can get impeded by the wire. Okay. I never knew this. This is really interesting. Okay. Yeah. So chuck it. I mean, listen, do I keep one around for the times where sometimes I have to hoist, hoist them up? Yeah, I keep one, but I rarely wear it. You know, most of the time I just, there's a really pretty one that Wacol makes called the minimizer bra. Um, that's wire free. And I love that one. There's a few on the market that I really like, but ditch it. And guess what? It's okay to be saggy.

And it's great. You know what I mean? Like let's, let's reframe what your breasts are supposed to look like in clothing. Why do they have to be up to my neck? My breasts? They don't. I love this. I love this. No, no, I love it. And also too, for, for the women that that love that look I love that too I'm here for any way that anyone wants to wear true yes I'm not trying to say you shouldn't oh of course I didn't think that you were but um but yeah so in that case then I feel like there's then like spandex or something that you can get to kind of like lift and bring it all up there's a lot of things because I don't always want my breasts to look saggy it's true i fall into that category but i will um i will always choose health over over looks same

always so it just feels better to not wear a bra i haven't worn a bra in like four years my mom was like courtney but i was like i don't really care mom i just don't care why why are we so concerned about if you can see like a pointed nipple or you know through a t-shirt i don't really care mom i just don't care why why are we so concerned about if you can see like a pointed nipple or you know through a t-shirt i don't who cares i mean and then there's the swimsuits with with underwire i'm like what's happening with the swimsuit with the underwire i don't i know it's yeah i agree i'm sorry i'm totally like going off topic we're in agreement we're in agreement we're in agreement yeah so you're gonna cup underneath the breast and you're gonna massage towards your armpit then for the stomach we're gonna massage your stomach the direction of the colon unless you have diarrhea so if you're

constipated or if you're just regular what i want you to do is massage your stomach towards elimination which is towards that left hip right so the ascending colon the large intestine goes from the approximately from the right hip to the underneath the right rib cage which is where your liver and gallbladder is located then you have your transverse colon that's going across your stomach near your belly button then from the left rib cage down towards the left hip and then your that's your descending colon then from the left rib cage down towards the left hip and then your uh that's your descending colon then it takes this little like turn under your navel where it goes down towards the rectum so i try not to use the word clockwise because sort of depends on your

perspective but i just say massage up the right side from the right cross the navel, down the left side, underneath the belly. Massage that. Do your deep abdominal breathing. Place your hands on your abdomen. Inhale, expand your stomach. Exhale, relax. Inhale and expand. That deep diaphragmatic breathing.

And you do the rainbow again, I'm assuming, right? This one you can do a circle oh you can i sometimes do a spiral you can go a little bit deeper in the abdomen you have so the lymph system has a superficial network and a deeper network and the superficial network drains into the deeper network you can affect that deeper network in the abdomen so it's okay to go this is what i said earlier it's okay to go a little deeper into the abdomen. So that's fine. You can also massage in circles. You're a little more freer in there when you're massaging the inguinal at the top of the thigh. Again, it's that kind of that rhythmic scooping at the inguinal crease. Okay. That's interesting.

Cause I was going to ask you about this because I have gotten lymphatic massages before where they specifically said it was a lymphatic massage, but they did, they, they went pretty hard on my stomach and they went pretty hard on my inner thigh. And I was wondering, is that, you can go deeper in the stomach and a lot of lymphatic massage therapists will, um, including myself will combine modalities i've studied deeper abdominal massage work teenage um teenage song and other other other um techniques that are quite helpful in the gut so that's fine again that's your deeper network um i'm not i don't i don't prescribe to the deeper in the inguinal you don't need to go deeper in the inguinal. You don't need to go deep in the inguinal.

And that's in the inner thigh, you mean? That's the inner thigh. Got it. There's a difference between, people are very ticklish there. You don't need to be light as a feather, but you're not pushing down. You can affect that plane of fluid in a um fur might be a little too much but you don't want to sign here's my scientific explanation you don't want to piss off your lymph okay so don't go too deep in the lymph i've had people who are claiming to do lymph massage do

that to me my inguinal and i'm like oh you don't need to do that. You're not. Yeah. You're like, you're going too hard, buddy. You're going too hard. I don't want, I don't want my lymph to get pissed off because what can happen is your body, then the, the lymph vessels can that spasm. Oh, like you said earlier. Right. And not move the fluid. So I just air towards respecting the lymph. Less is more. And that's sort of what I'm on a mission to educate people that less is more. You will be amazed how much you can feel an effect by just lightening your touch. I think this is really important for people to hear, because if you're like me, I always thought, I mean, kind of similarly to what you said earlier, like no pain, no gain, kind of like the harder, the better it needs to really be like deep and

in there. But so it's good for people to hear this. I think it's important. Yes. That's what attracted me to it. I think in the very beginning in massage school many moons ago, which is how amazing I felt with this contouring light, lighter touch. And you're going to feel the breath. Your muscles will relax with this work. You've probably seen that when you've gotten lymph massage. I love a good rolfing for structural integrity. Okay.

I love the myofascial work for that, but that is different. What we are doing is working with the lymph fluid. So we want to stay a little lighter. And what's going to happen is the rest of your muscles will respond. They will relax as you enter that parasympathetic rest and digest mode. Okay. Yeah, that's really important and very good information. Well, I feel like we covered everything I wanted to cover today.

Is there anything else that you wanted to leave the listeners with? Just that I want people to understand that it's okay if you are going and you're getting a lymphatic massage from somebody and they're not doing it exactly the way i'm saying that's okay everyone has a different level of training with lymph massage unfortunately some of it is a little bit of a wild wild west in the lymph world as it is finally finding its place in the beauty and health and wellness world as it should. So if you are somebody who just wants the aesthetic benefits and doesn't really care so much the education level of your practitioner, that's fine. But if you are somebody who has

some deeper health concerns that you want to be addressed, even a tummy tuck, cesarean, rhinoplasty, getting a facelift. There's a lot that lymph can help with. So just check the education level of your practitioner because as somebody who has a higher level of education in the lymph system and working with people's immune system, you can do so much to help your body heal from the inside out and get the aesthetic look and feel that you want. You can do both and it's, but it's also okay if you just want the beauty benefits. That's okay too. Yeah, that's cool. I love that. Just try a bunch of, just try a bunch out and don't be afraid to start working on yourself. I love this.

And please tell everyone where they can find you because you have an amazing Instagram. And I'm sure people will want to go afterwards and see your videos and kind of see how to do it if they were just listening to this. Yes. Thank you. My Instagram is at the lymphatic message. It's not massage, it's message with an E because I'm on a mission to get you to understand how you can use your lymph system to feel better. And I'm always giving you some free advice to improve and optimize your lymphatic functioning, which is going to help your immune functioning

and you will look and feel better. My website, thelymphaticmessage.com. That's so great. Thank you so much for coming on today. Thanks so much for having me. I really enjoyed this. Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of the real foodology podcast. The show is produced and mixed by Drake Peterson and Christopher McCone of Peterson McCone productions. The music is by the singer Georgie. Please take a moment to subscribe, rate, and comment on either Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any major podcast platform. And you can find me on Instagram at realfoodology or realfoodology.com. See you guys next week. Thanks. Thank you.