Realfoodology - 53: Are We Allergic to Food or Just What’s Been Done To It? With Robyn O’Brien

Episode Date: August 25, 2021

This episode answers the important question, What is going on with our food right now?”  Robyn O’Brien is the Co-Founder of Replant Capital where they help improve farmers profitability and environmental outcomes through financing the transition of farmland to regenerative and organic agriculture.  She has been called the Erin Brockovich of the food industry. Check Out Robyn: Ted Talk https://robynobrien.com/robyn-obrien-tedx/http://replantcapital.com

On today's episode of the Real Foodology Podcast. necessarily generational things. So what's going on in the environment and, you know, ultimately landed on this question that was game changing and is, you know, are we allergic to food or what's been done to it? Hey, welcome back to another episode of the Real Foodology podcast. I am your host, Courtney Swan, and I am so happy that you're here. Today's episode is particularly special to me. This woman is someone whose career I have followed for about 10 years now. And she is one of my idols. She gave a TED Talk back in 2011. So 10 years ago now. And what she said really opened my eyes and lit a fire under my ass. Her work has really shaped my career and my passion and my drive in all that I do in the last 10 years, because she has really revealed a lot about what is going on

and what's happening in our food industry today. Her name is Robin O'Brien. You may recognize her from the Ted talk that she gave 10 years ago. If you have not seen this Ted talk yet, I'm linking it in the show notes. I highly recommend watching it. It is so amazing. And it really does open your eyes to what is going on with our food right now. She is the co-founder of Replant Capital. With a 20-year career in food and finance, Robin has been called the food's Erin Brockovich by the New York Times and Bloomberg. She triggered an allergic reaction in the food industry when she asked,

are we allergic to food or what's been done to it? It all started one day. It was a very personal story for her. It all started at the breakfast table. She has four children and over Eggo waffles, one of her kids went into anaphylactic shock and thankfully her child survived, but it caused her to really start digging into our food industry. And she wanted to understand why all of. We just started to put genetically modified proteins into our food system without having any long-term safety data. And when you introduce a new protein like that, that our bodies have never ingested before, of course, you're going to have reactions. The early years of her work are documented in her best seller book, The Unhealthy Truth. She became recognized around the world after that TED Talk that she gave in 2011, which was viewed by millions and translated into multiple languages. She is a trusted and sought after food industry advisor, strategist,

and public speaker. She's also an adjunct professor at Rice's University's business school. I am just in constant awe of the knowledge that this woman brings to the conversation. And she has so much love and compassion and really gives me a lot of hope about the state of our food, food industry and where we're headed. So I am just so delighted for you guys to hear this episode. This is really exciting. Organifi now has kids stuff. They just released two kid products. One is called Easy Greens and it's a refreshing green apple juice where kids will never know that it's packed with veggies. And the other one is called Protect. It's a delicious wild berry punch like the Kool-Aid that we used to have as a kid, but without any sugar. This is really exciting. And if you've listened to

the podcast for a while, you know that I'm a huge fan of Organifi and most specifically because every single product that they make is glyphosate residue free. So you know that you're going to be able to give these powders to your kids and know that they will be able to consume them safely without any glyphosate in it. So let's break down each one. The Easy Greens is a nourishing and delicious blend of superfoods and veggies that provides essential nutrients, probiotics, and digestive enzymes to bring balance to kids' growing bodies without fillers, additives, or junk. It helps to fill in nutritional gaps, aids in growth and development, supports digestive health, has a rich micronutrient profile, and includes digestive enzymes. This would be a great way to

sneak in greens for your little one without them actually knowing that it's healthy for them. And the second one, which is the wild berry punch similar to Kool-Aid, is called Protect, and it is to support your child's daily immune health with food-derived nutrients that work to strengthen their body's first line of defense. I know just through girlfriends of mine that have children that when your kids are going to school, going to daycare, they're coming home sick a lot more often just because they're getting exposed to different kids and different viruses when they're out in the world playing with kids. So this would be a great way to help to support your little one's immune health. It's organic and it's also made

with real whole food ingredients. It has a delicious berry taste and it's low sugar and it's gentle enough for kids to take every single day. And I really love the ingredients in this one. It's orange and acerol cherry, which is a powerful source of vitamin C and antioxidants, astragalus, elderberry, and propolis. These are all really great for overall immune health. If you want to try the products that I talked about today or any of the Organifi products, go to Organifi.com slash realfoodology and use code realfoodology for 20% off. Again, that's Organifi. It's O-R-G-A-N-I-F-I.com slash realfoodology. Do you want to hear the biggest discovery of our time for promoting healthy aging? Of course you do, because all of us are concerned about aging.

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to complement one another, factoring in the combined effect of all the ingredients together. If for some reason you don't like the product, you're not feeling the effects of it, it also has a 100-day money-back guarantee. If you want to resist aging at the cellular level, try Qualia Synalytic. Go to neurohacker.com slash realfoodology for up to $100 off, That's neurohacker, N-E-U-R-O-H-A-C-K-E-R.com slash realfoodology for an extra 15% off your purchase. Thanks to Neurohacker for sponsoring today's episode. Robin, thank you so much for coming on today. I'm so excited to chat with you. For everyone listening who is unaware of your work, can you explain a little bit about what you do within the food industry? Yeah, I've spent the last 15 years

really advocating and pushing for change in the food industry to really elevate the standards here in the U.S. so that we have higher integrity products on shelf the way they do in other countries around the world. And the reason for that is that because I learned, you know, over a decade ago that our big multinational food companies formulate products differently here in the U.S. with cheaper artificial ingredients, and they formulate their products better with higher integrity ingredients overseas. And that double standard to me was just intolerable. So early in my career, there was a lot of advocacy around that. Then I was engaged by those very multinationals to say, hey, you know, help us think about our product portfolio and how we can redesign things. And then most recently, I am a co-founder and managing director at Replant Capital, where we're actually working on the supply chain because that's ultimately the bottleneck.

And where I landed after working with these companies for the last several years was, you know, they were with us and they understand that they need to transition their products. But the supply chain isn't there. And so the math doesn't work. And if the math doesn't work, it's impossible no matter what. So how do you get the math to work? And in the U.S., the crazy part is only one percent of our farmland is organic. Only one percent. And I guarantee every person listening to this podcast has at least had one thing in their fridge that's organic. And so that tension and that math, that's the opportunity is how do we actually convert our farmland at scale so that anyone who wants organic and better for you products can afford them and that they're accessible everywhere. And that's the goal. Yeah. I mean, you just nailed it on the head. That is absolutely the goal.

And I found that a lot of people don't really have any sort of concept of what we are actually doing to our food. And I would bet a lot of money that the majority of people, if they really understood what was actually happening into our food supply, how our food is grown, what we're doing to our animals, they wouldn't be buying this food. And I just want to say right now, thank you so much for this work that you've been doing. Honestly, your work and what you've discovered over the last, I'm trying to think, I think I probably found you maybe like six years ago has really shaped my career. And you've been such like a mentor from afar because I just,

I watch what you're doing and it's so incredible. And it's so, so needed because so many people are in the dark of what's really happening. Yeah. And and i mean when i got into it you know most people that were advocating in this space were using like fear you know to just terrify people and as if that was going to create change and for most of us you know that doesn't really work you can maybe do it for a little bit and then you just shut down because you can't listen anymore when someone's trying to leverage you in that capacity and i thought thought, you know, what actually works? And I studied different people that were advocating for change in different arenas and different spaces. I studied, you know, Al Gore and what he was trying to accomplish with climate. And while his data was there, his solutions were just minimal. And I thought,

this is so disempowering and you've got to empower people or else you're just going to give up and be totally despondent. So I thought, okay, I'll take that lesson from him. And then I studied Martin Luther King and the way that he was advocating for civil rights. And I thought, you know, he used love. And that to me made so much sense because it was such an expansive, generous energy. And then I also studied Harvey Milk, who was advocating for gay rights and equal rights, and he used gratitude and thanking people for their time. And so I sort of blended all of that together and thought, you've got to provide real tangible solutions. And you've got to share this message with love and gratitude. And I've always held it that way, that even though it's impossibly hard to learn that like, yes, we have absolutely

trashed our farmland. We have trashed our food products. It's way too much processed stuff that our body no longer recognizes as food. And we've been there and we've all probably done it. And it's a terrible feeling to realize, oh my gosh, this is what we've done. However, you know, then you can pivot and say, there's so much that you can actually do and you can do it at your own tempo and your own pace. You can take baby steps. You know, you can learn how you can participate in the change if you want to, if you don't, you don't have to. What's really exciting, I think, is how many people are participating. You're a great example of that. I love the stories of people that are like, you inspired me to do this. And I think ultimately that was my goal because I knew I couldn't do it by myself. I knew we needed

just an absolute enormous number of people coming into this and leveraging all of their time and different talents. And so it always makes me really happy to hear somebody who's like, yeah, I'm totally in and this is how we're doing it. So thank you back at you for your work. Did you know that most cookware and appliances are made with forever chemicals? Yes. That means your nonstick pans, your air fryers, your waffle makers, your blender could possibly have PFAS and yes, even our beloved crock pots and pressure cookers. I have actually been talking about this for so long. Back in 2006, my mom came to my dorm room and made me get rid of all my nonstick pans because she was concerned about me being exposed to something called Teflon. Teflon is a coating that is used on nonstick pans and a lot of these

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Oh, thank you. I really appreciate that. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's something I'm, I'm very passionate about because, you know, as I started diving into this and really learning about what we're doing to our food, I mean, um, I can very much resonate with your story that I've heard you say, where I was just like, I can't unhear this. Like I have to find some sort of way, some sort of platform to speak about this because so many people are in the dark and so many are being affected by it. And we have viable solutions for it as well. So let's talk about this a little bit. I want to go into the solutions afterwards because I always love to provide people. I don't want to just like throw all this information and then be like, we're F'd, you know, I want to provide them with real solutions. But

for people listening that are kind of unaware of what's really happening, what, how is our food system? I mean, I refer to it a lot as like broken, like what are some examples of what is happening right now? You know, I mean, I would say it was designed this way. So, you know, it's broken from the sense that it's breaking our health, but the design of the food system by these agrochemical giants and the banks that financed them was very intentional. So, you know, for them, they were like, hey, we've got an extractive food system, and what that means is profit and margins at all costs. And they were able to externalize that cost. And what I'm talking about there is that, you know, you can pump a bunch of artificial

ingredients into food, and it is way cheaper to produce. And so for shareholders, that's a great deal, you know, but for those of us that are eating this day in and day out, it's not much. And what science has disclosed in the last 20, 30 years is, you know, this really is impacting our health. It's pretty obvious that it's impacting our health, but for a lot of people, they needed the science. And, you know, the thing that to me was just intolerable was when I learned that our big food companies were formulating the products differently in other countries, and they were making things with real ingredients. It wasn't the same shareholder pressure. That higher integrity product was demanded not just by the consumer, but also by the regulators. And so here in the U.S., we got, you know, we're all pretty

familiar of how much influence policy and money can have in a pretty powerful way. And we've seen that in the tobacco industry, the way the tobacco industry was really able to influence policy and legislation. We've seen it in the oil and gas industry, how they've been able to influence policy and legislation, and we've seen it in food. So the food industry has wielded enormous power with policymakers in order to keep the system in this status quo that benefits them financially. However, now those costs have been externalized on us because you go around the room and everybody's dealing with somebody that's got cancer or diabetes or Alzheimer's or autism or allergies or autoimmune issues. I mean, none of us have gotten out of this unscathed. And it's been pretty interesting to sort of have that awakening. It's heartache in my opinion, but I also knew it was why eventually this would come to light because

the data and statistics around the health of our families is too compelling, you know, that this is actually happening. And it's been driving this food awakening. And so, you know, early in my work, there was pushback for sure by some of these multinationals and they were pretty aggressive and there were moments, days, months, almost years that were pretty terrifying. And now we're in a place where, you know, they're saying, okay, how do we make the change? And it's much more collaborative. The banks are still pretty entrenched because they benefit, you know, from this, this entrenched system. But what's interesting to me as a farmers now are stepping forward and saying, you know what? This system of genetically engineered ingredients

and all these seeds and all these pesticides and all these chemicals are used to grow them. It doesn't work for my family. And the reason it doesn't work is because the soil that my family now stands on is trashed. I'm carrying way too much debt to finance these genetically engineered seeds and chemicals. And then importantly, the kids don't want to step into that career.

So we really have this legacy crisis. And, you know, people are like, well, what's changed? And why is it different this time? To me, that's why. Yeah, I mean, wow, you touched on so many interesting things. I've been hearing this a lot about farmers that are really pushing back now. A lot of them are wanting to do regenerative farming. I'm sure you're aware of the documentary Kiss the Ground. They followed this one farmer who for years lost 100% of his crops.

And he was so much in debt that he was like, I'm never going to be able to repay this. And then he switched over to regenerative farming and now actually makes a profit. So for people listening that are unaware of your background and how you really got into this, can you go a little bit into your background story about your child and how you got into this whole? Yeah, I mean, it wasn't anything that I ever anticipated doing with my life. And so that's why I think I have so much compassion for people that find themselves suddenly standing at the starting line staring something down that they never in a million years would have anticipated. It requires a lot of grace and it requires a lot of flexibility and it requires being as kind to yourself as you would be to someone standing beside you going through it so I would start there, because there are plenty of opportunities where you fall down and have massive

opportunities to learn, you know, as you navigate this. But for me, you know, my background was conservative. I went to business school on a full scholarship. I was recruited by the oil and gas industry, you know, so nothing environmental in my background, absolutely at all. And I chose to go to work for an investment firm because, you know, I used to joke, like, I couldn't, nothing could hold my attention for long enough. And it was a perfect career because you got to meet with all these different management teams and all these different industries every single day. Today we have ADHD, which clearly defines, you know, what was going on in my brain when I was in my twenties, but we didn't have that term. And so, you know, to me, it was a perfect career

because you got to hop around all of these different things and meet with all of these different people. And it was constantly changing. It was always interesting. And I loved it. And as the only woman on the team, I covered the food industry. So it was a really early way to learn the analytics of the industry. My heart wasn't involved at all, which I liked at the time. And then, you know, we moved to Boulder 21 years ago and had four children. And it was my fourth child that had this allergic reaction. And it just made no sense to me because I was like, why are all these children allergic? And the way the data had changed so quickly made no sense. And I thought, you know, genetics don't change this quickly.

This isn't necessarily a generational thing. So what's going on in the environment? And, you know, ultimately landed on this question that was game changing and is, you know, are we allergic to food or what's been done to it? And it was that early research, you know, really realizing that we had fundamentally changed the way that we grow food in this country. And that as we shifted to this genetically engineered operating system, farmers all of a sudden had to start paying for food. You know, an incredible portfolio of chemicals was required to treat the seeds and treat the crops as they grew.

And I just thought, you know, what is this doing to us and have other countries embraced it? And that was really the wake up call was when I realized that in a lot of countries, these crops were not yet embraced, especially for human food. And then if they had been used in other countries, they were labeled and there was a transparency that was brought to the consumer. And that was a pretty sickening discovery, you know, to realize that we had completely fundamentally changed the way that we produce food and no one had told us. So I thought, you know, what else has changed? And there's quite a lot, you know, in our dairy, we introduced artificial growth hormones to help cows make more milk more quickly. You know, economically, that makes a ton of sense. But for the health of our families, it doesn't.

That genetically engineered product that was injected into cows to help them make more milk ended up with the cows having cysts and ovarian cysts and all these different, you know, issues and health issues. And so most developed countries around the world said, no, thank you. We don't want that in our milk and our cheese and our dairy. And yet we embraced it here. So, you know, learning, the learning part of this journey was incredibly hard. And also, you know, people looked at you like, there's no way this is possible. We would have been told, you know, and so here I was like an early, early whistleblower saying this actually happened. And

I mean, people looked at you like you have got to be crazy. There's no way this has happened. And, you know, I kept, I had to keep head down and say this has actually happened. And as I continued to advocate for it, you know, the press started to pick up on it a little bit and the New York Times ran a piece that was really intended as a hit piece. And I mean, when it hit online the night before it was going to publish, you know, and land on people's doorsteps, I remember just sobbing and just thinking, oh, my gosh, you know, they have absolutely tried to just shoot the messenger here. What do I do? So I stayed up all night really going through the website that I had at the time for allergy kids and just making it as unemotional and data driven as possible. I stayed up the entire night and I think I went to bed at like five and woke up at seven.

And when I woke up at seven, every major publishing house had contacted me and they wanted to know the story. They wanted to understand what was happening. So I flew out to New York. You know, the whole process of writing a book is in and of itself, its own business model. And I flew out to New York to meet with these different publishing houses. And I remember it was Random House, this group of women, it was all women in the meeting, sitting around this table. And they were just like, this is unbelievable that this has happened. And I said, I know.

And so we moved forward with Random House. We actually signed the deal on Valentine's Day and released the book on Mother's Day a year later. But in the middle of that, Wall Street blew up and Lehman Brothers happened. And there was a massive meltdown and New York laid off, you know, an enormous amount of people. And I remember thinking they're going to cut the book. You know, this is a risky title and they're going to cut the book. And so I got on a plane and I flew to New York and I just said, people believed in our financial system until

it's been proven faulty. And people have believed in our food system, which is about to be proven faulty. So this is actually a parallel that which is about to be proven faulty so this is actually a parallel that we'll be able to use and every woman sitting around that table was frozen and then two days later i got home and the following week the manuscript came back and we kept going so you know it really has been um a journey i would say love and courage all the way through um there have been an enormous amount of naysayers and you know naysayers are generally the people that can't do. So you know you sort of nod and you put your head down and you keep going. And so you know then it began a lot of high-level consulting with

the food industry as they began to read the book and you know this TED talk came out a couple years later. The TED Talk moment was a terrifying one. And now that thing's been translated into dozens of language and viewed by millions of people. And it's still a tool today, which is pretty amazing to me. And I always love it when I get an email that's like, hey, I know I'm late to the party, but I just watched your TED Talk. And it holds because, you know, again, this double standard, it's not suddenly going to disappear. But thankfully, you know, the big companies double standard, it's not suddenly going to disappear. But thankfully, you know, the big companies are really transitioning. And I think, you know, a lot of

them, it's personal. They've got kids with food allergies or a parent with cancer, you know, husband that's sick. And so they're transitioning. And that to me is the invitation is on our watch. Let's fix this. Yeah. I mean, my heart just goes out to you and every parent. I mean, I feel like I've been, you know, paying attention to this for the last like eight years where, you know, I always use this example when I was a kid and I was in school, it was unheard of that people had nut allergies. I didn't know of a single one. And then fast forward to, I was a nanny a couple of years ago. And I remember, you know, I would make food for the kids every day. And I was not allowed to put any nuts in it, because there were so many kids that were in their preschool and kindergarten that had nut allergies that they had to ban them. Right. And I started looking into this, because I felt similarly as to you, where I was like,

okay, but why? I'm always asking, but why? Like, I want to know, like, why is this becoming such an issue? Like, why now are all these kids, and it happened in such a small, short span. Right, right, right, right. I mean, because, you know, for most of us, you know, you had a PB&J and a carton of milk, and those weren't loaded weapons on a lunchroom table, and now that would be an impossible thing, and I think back to, you know, 20 years ago, I mean, every fridge would have just had either high-fat milk or low-fat milk. That was the variation, you know, 20 years ago, I mean, every fridge would have just had either high fat milk or low fat milk. That was the variation, you know, and today we've got oat milk and almond milk and soy milk and rice milk and cashew. It's just it's amazing. It's amazing what we have today and clearly speaks to something being fundamentally wrong and changed in a short period of time, you know. And so I think if we can if you can change it that quickly, then,

you know, then you can change it back. But it does require policy. And I think what happened was that the policymakers early on were really influenced by these multinational chemical companies to the point where, you know, when this artificial growth hormone was introduced into the dairy, the woman that had written the report for the company, for the chemical company making it, ended up inside the FDA reviewing her own report, which is unheard of, you know, I can't, I mean, now with social media, imagine if that happened today, people would just be like, no way, get out, you know, but this was before the dawn of social media, and I often say, thank goodness, you know, for social media, because it allows us to share information a lot more efficiently. Yeah. Well, but I will say though, I mean, I was just reading recently,

like there is seemingly a revolving door between like the FDA, big pharma, all these regulating companies and then big food as well. You know, I'll read about these like big food execs that then go to the FDA or the USDA or whatever. And then they're essentially like writing policies and allowing, you know, like their own food in through the door, which is really frightening. And, you know, I want to bring up something because I feel like this is not addressed enough. And you said this in your TED talk, actually, that the US spends more on healthcare than any other country on the planet. This blew me away. Like I knew this, but you said something else that I was like, Oh my God, I'd never even thought about this. So 16%, and I'm wondering now if this has changed, if it's gone up, but 16% of our GDP goes towards

managing disease and Starbucks. So this means that Starbucks spends more money on their health care than they do on coffee, which is absurd. Yeah, I mean, you know, the numbers, the statistics are terrifying. And I think, you know, statistics on cancer alone are terrifying. And cancer, to me, one of the statistics that I found just, I mean, it was a crippling moment. It was just absolutely suffocatingly horrible. Pit of the stomach moment was learning that cancer is the leading cause of death by disease in American children. And I thought they have not even been on the planet for long enough. You know, what is happening here? It actually just came from a lunch with a guy and he said, you know, our generation, people that were born in the 70s, basically, like got it the worst. Because, you know, it was it was the introduction

of all of these chemicals. And through that introduction, you know, like we just we were just these guinea pigs through it all. So, you know, it's interesting to me is sort of the detox side of that, you know, in the way that people are trying to better understand, you know, is there a way to really begin to like change things around? And I think, you know, as somebody that grew up in Texas eating meat with every meal and every snack and every time we sat down, you know, the thought of like having a meatless meal was just wild. Like you just didn't do it, you know? And I've seen in my own health over the years, you know, through these modifications and changes over the years, and, you know, just these adjustments, you know, to where it's like, oh, this feels better internally for me to be doing this. It is pretty remarkable what you can change. And so, you know, it's definitely something that you can participate in and it doesn't need to be perfect.

You know, I always say don't make the perfect the enemy of the good. But the health care costs in this country are out of control. And, you know, we have a for profit health care system, which means sickness sells. So, you know, if we're sick, you know, that's keeping the revenue and the lights going for these big pharmaceutical companies. They don't necessarily have prevention built into their models. So we as individuals, that's the opportunity is how can we exercise prevention? You know, what can we be doing? And, you know, thankfully, there is a lot that we can be doing, but unfortunately, it's unaffordable to a lot

of people. And that to me wasn't a solution. So to really come back to, you know, how do we do this at scale? How can we go from 1% of our farmland is organic to 85% of our farmland is organic because 85% of consumers are trying organic. So how do you get that to align more efficiently? And that's really working with these farmers and working with the supply chains of these big companies to finance that transition, because then the math works for all of us. And, you know, ultimately that's in the best interest of our country because you just think about the economic impact of being so sick or the loss of productivity or how it's impacting, you know,

families and companies, everybody is impacted by this. And, you know, really at a point where it's like, okay, you know, we can exercise precaution. And thankfully the food industry, I think, is really stepping into that and they're playing a really amazing role. And then entrepreneurs are playing an amazing role. And it's really, it's an exciting time. You know, the more that we, the more that we learn, and the more that we unlearn, the more that we can fix this. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm with you on that. I'm definitely, I'm very positive that we will be able to turn this around.

It's just in the interim right now. And also, you know, just learning all these facts and knowing that we have been eating food that has been messed with, tainted, however you want to say, for the last, I don't even know, it's been like 30 years. It's really, the thing that really made me the most mad, and you mentioned this briefly, but I want to give an example because I'm not sure a lot of people know this. So when I found this out, I was furious. Europe, for example, actually most other countries outside of the U.S. do not allow, they have a lot of regulations about food and what they're allowed to have in their food, what they're allowed to spray on their food, what the farmers can do with the food.

And companies like Kraft, for example. So macaroni and cheese in Europe, the ingredients are different than they are in the US because Europe has different regulations on the food. And when I found this out, it made me so mad because I was like, so now US companies are knowingly doing this differently to Americans than they are Europeans. They know what they're doing

and they also have the ability to create these products healthier. And they're doing it for all countries, but they're not doing it for us yeah i mean that it's infuriating me you know that was that was my point was like we're not asking them to reinvent the wheel they're already doing this like they know what they're doing and they're driving profitability on the backs of the american consumer so you know and it's interesting it extends well beyond the food industry you know there really are a lot of opportunities to clean it up. And again, it's because in Europe, you know, there is a healthcare system where they have an incentive to exercise precaution. If their population were as sick

as we are, you know, it would explode in terms of taxes. But because it's privatized here, we pay those costs. And so, you know, you hear stories, I mean, we're seeing these GoFundMes across social media where families are just bankrupt because they can't afford the treatments that are required or the EpiPen thing, you know, when the price of those things shot up to like six or $700. I mean, it is criminal that that is happening, you know, for a life-saving medication for children that in Europe costs $70. I mean, it is absolutely criminal. So that double standard is intolerable. And I think, you know, the more noise and more transparency around that, the better, but ultimately it does get down to policy because our policy has enabled this. And in Europe, the policy disables it and that's

the difference. Yeah. Okay. So now that we know all of this, what is the solution? Obviously we need these policies to change, but I will say that this is when I get a little bit, I don't know. I just get concerned because I'm like, it seems like we're so far down this one direction and there's so much money to be made. And alternatively, there's so much money to be lost by these companies by changing the way that they produce our food. So how do we get to a point where we can start making real changes with those policies? Yeah, I mean, I think we're sort of at that point because the soil health has suffered to such a large extent that farmers are really struggling to maintain crops

on farm because the soil has been so overly treated with these chemicals that it can no longer hold the nutrients and it can no longer hold what it's designed to hold in order to grow. And so, you know, if soil can't hold the water, it's going to be really tough to grow something in that soil. And that's what we've done. We've treated soil with so many chemicals to the point where it is no longer a live functioning thing and it can't hold this water. And farmers really are now starting to make noise. And I think that is game changing, you know, to have the farmers actually leading a lot of this conversation. And then as consumers, you know, it's really thinking about food security and water security. Those are the two things. So what can we be doing to ensure that,

you know, with COVID, it exposed a food system that was just frail and vulnerable and, you know, full of middlemen. And we realized, you know, we don't need to have all these middlemen. And a lot of the farmers were saying, instead of being at the beck and whim of all these different middlemen, what happens if I go directly to the consumer and set up an e-commerce site? So, you know, we're starting to see that shift. So it's really a lot of these middlemen were put into these systems clearly to just make money and take these transaction costs along the way. And farmers and consumers are saying, you know, it's better if I could just buy directly. I had a friend in Texas that decided to buy half a cow for her husband for his birthday. And then she realized, like, where do you put

half a cow? It doesn't actually fit in my normal refrigerator. So she had to buy like this freezer, you know, for, for, for the cow and all of the different pieces and cuts and everything. But, you know, I think we're on a very vertical learning curve and you know, it's again, engaging where you want to. So if it's community gardens, awesome. If it's school lunches, great. If it's just planting something for yourself, great, but don't be afraid to start small, but do start. You know, I think what we need to be afraid of is stagnation because that is really a dangerous place. If we stay where we are, you know, it's a dangerous place. So, you know, how can you get involved? And like you said, I mean, Kiss the Ground, Biggest Little Farm, there just been some amazing documentaries and films that have come forward. They're amazing films,

Gather and others from, you know, farmers of color, BIPOC, indigenous as well. And understandably, you know, farmers of color and black farmers and indigenous farmers are sort of, you know, annoyed that suddenly everybody's talking about regenerative because they never had access to the capital and the financing. So that method of farming is all they've ever known. So it's really honoring that wisdom and saying, you know what, we've got plenty of people who know how to do this, who can teach the rest of us. And allowing that leadership to emerge from those communities to me is really important. So, you know, there really are so many different ways to engage. And then I do think making noise at the, you know, these food companies, because ultimately they do have to consider what, care and concern what the consumer

wants. It's interesting that grocery stores moved first because they scan everything through checkout and they're like, oh, consumers are wanting this and this and this. And all of a sudden the private labels, you know, at Kroger, like Simple Truth and these others exploded, you know, and they recognized there was an opportunity to meet the need of the 21st century consumer. So it really is going to require everyone, you know, we have all inherited this broken system, which means, you know, we can all play a role in fixing it. And I would hope that within a generation, you know, we've really corrected a lot of the harm that has been done. Yeah, I hope so too. And I think a lot of it is dependent on people having conversations like

this, like, you know, people listening to this podcast and sharing this with their family and their friends and letting them know that this is happening because I have found in my own life that the more, you know, I just, I educate my friends or let people know that this is actually happening. It really does drive people's spending habits. And like you said, I mean, we're seeing an explosion of organic. We're seeing all these companies that, I mean, even you can go to Walmart now and they sell a ton of organic stuff, which, you know, I mean, I feel like six or seven years ago, that was not even a thing at all. Right. The word democratization of organic and making it affordable and accessible is so important.

Otherwise, it's not a solution. And it does get back to, you know, the federal government and the way they lend money out in these subsidies. And again, it's financing. So, you know, I'll say you can't fix a broken food system with a broken financial system. It's definitely been designed this way. And certain very small special interests have benefited, you know, and it's been on the backs of our farmers, and it's been on the backs of our families. And I gave a talk probably about 10 years ago at a big biotech conference with all these farmers using these genetically engineered seeds. And by the end, they just all, you know, were leaning in because like you cited with craft, it was like, look, Kraft's doing this to all of us, you know, regardless of where we live and what we are. They've made a better, cleaner product for families in other countries, and they're loading our families with all this artificial stuff.

And the farmers leaned in and they said, you know, what do you want us to do? And I said, you've got to tell the truth when you're ready to tell the truth, tell the truth. And one farmer said, imagine if the farmers and the moms got together, you know, imagine what would happen then. And, you know, we finally, I think, are at that point where the farmers are leaning in. They're like, look, this doesn't work for me anymore. And the farmers that have transitioned, you know,

I'll say, what's the greatest benefit you've seen? Thinking they're going to say, oh, my debt levels went down or, oh, you know, soil health, blah, blah, blah. They'll tell you their kids came back to the farm and that's, that's the best thing they've seen. And you know, that, that is food security. Yeah. Oh, that makes me so happy because I know that has been a huge discussion and a concern and it's a concern. It should be concerning all of us because if we don't have, you know, farmers that are wanting't have uh you know farmers that are wanting to like younger generation of farmers that are wanting to get into it then how are we going to

grow our food it's totally totally you know we're relying on other countries for imports you know i asked um applegate had committed to transitioning their livestock feed to non-gmo and i said where are you guys getting this because i knew we didn't grow enough here in the u.s and they said oh we're importing it from like russia and europe and and Romania and Australia and all these places. I was just like, it's insane. You know, so why aren't we growing the food that Americans actually want to eat? That is food security. That is national security.

That's the language we all speak, you know. And then it's financial security for our farmers. So, you know, to me, like that's what's so much fun about where it stands right now. Like, we're at the starting line of that, and that is such a win-win situation. It's going to be so powerful. You know, we're in the early innings of it now, I mean, you know, I see our biggest hurdle is getting over this mono crops, the mono crop agriculture that we face right now, which means that we know is now making us sick. And it's the majority of it's grown for our livestock anyways, but it makes them sick. And then we eat them. And then a good reminder is that we eat what our food eats. And it's all, I mean, how do we get out of that? Because the biggest thing for me is the subsidies. How do we get to a point where we change the subsidies? Well, yeah. I mean, we've got monocropping because we've got monobanking. You know, you look at how narrow the group is that's financing this and how homogenous that group is. And it's no wonder that it's all just monocropping, monobanking, monoculture. And again, that's why at Replant we thought, you know, we're a new financial services firm.

It's like, how do we actually think about capital differently? Because capital is the first ingredient on any farm. It's the first ingredient in any food company. And there hasn't been any diversity there. So how can we actually tap different pools of capital to help finance this transition, whether it's philanthropic capital or different foundations? And thankfully, you know, there has been an enormous explosion of growth in capital. And $426 billion is what our farmers carry in debt. $700 billion would be what would be required to transition U.S. farmland. And that's doable. Mackenzie Scott, the ex-wife of Jeff Bezos from Amazon, just in the last couple of years, her net worth has gone

from $36 billion to $60 billion. And she's committed to giving it all away. Imagine if we had more philanthropists like that, where that, where that makes a real impact, you know, as you can begin to transition farmland at scale. And as those farmers are successful, other farmers are going to follow. So, you know, for us, putting the farmer first is the smartest financial move. It's the smartest move in terms of communications and marketing and strategy, because as that farmer is successful, others will follow. Yeah. Well, that's great. I mean, then we just, we need to keep, yeah, I don't know. We need more people like her financing this and making a huge shift. I know regenerative farming is like a really important piece of this. Is that scalable? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. You know,

it's just transitioning from a chemical input model to a service model. So instead of using chemicals to manage the farm, you use consultants, you know, who come on farm are like, oh, there's this. And so, you know, there's that opportunity, you know, and it's really exciting to me that I think probably one of the funnest areas right now is this technical assistance space where it's people that are on farm working with farmers to teach them how to transition from genetically engineered and all the chemicals to regenerative and organic and that space is just lighting up with young people and that gives me so much hope and they're so much fun and they're so funny and they know how to leverage social media and they know how to leverage technology in a way that is game-changing

so 10 years from now like there are a couple of them right now and I'll introduce you to some, so you can have them on the show because they're great. But 10 years from now, I think we're going to look back and be like, oh my gosh, can you remember there were just like a handful of these guys and now you've got a whole industry and that's the transition. It's just going from this chemical input model to service. Oh yes. Okay. I mean, this makes me so excited. I'm sure everyone listening is like, thank God, because, you know, it looks a little grim. It's, yeah, but it's when you look grim, I mean, you know, grim is just people trying to keep you locked in fear and paralyzed, and they don't want, you know, when you're like that, you're not about to take action. You're

just frozen. And so, you know, a lot of the fear mongering I think is intentional, you know, because it protects the status quo. So, you know, yes, the fires are absolutely real and absolutely terrifying. And the water crisis to me is terrifying. You know, I don't think the water crisis has gotten enough airtime. It's starting to. And so if we can farm in a way that is responsible to water as this precious asset that we know it to be, then we absolutely should be doing that. And thankfully, different states have leadership that can really emerge there. And like we've seen in anything with food, it's the state leadership that really, I think, that really catalyzes the change. Amazing. So for people listening, what are some resources if they're wanting to get more involved or they want to be more educated on what we're talking about? What are maybe some good like films, books, things like that that you can direct them to? Yeah, you know, I mean, thankfully there are so many different resources. The Rodale Institute has been at this for a long time. You know, the book that I wrote, you know, 12 years ago, The Unhealthy Truth, is still really sort of an encyclopedia on what's happened because, you know, it was sort of an analysis of how we got here in this double standard.

And you can't rewrite that. You know, that is what it is. And a lot of people still when they read that are just shocked, you know, that this has really happened. And it does go into it in great detail. But there are so many other amazing resources and books out there. And thankfully, you know, they continue. Anna LaPay and her mother, Frances Moore LaPay, were early voices in this. And her mom was speaking to this, you know, in the 60s. And then Anna has now come out with her own book. So she's another one. And there really are amazing resources, different TED Talks, you know, have been given on the topic. I mean, Jamie Oliver's given one that's amazing.

There are different ones that have been given on the meat industry, you know, and then Michael Pollan has sort of been this like philosopher and professor over the whole thing. But I think what's really important is that people understand the real tangible solutions and action items. And I think it's one thing to come from an academic place. It's another thing to be a mother of four that is just, you know, terrified and freaking out about, you know, what have I done? And that to me was the space that I could occupy was, you know, I understand that emotion and how overwhelming it can be and how we can all start to just take these baby steps to start to create change. And we don't do it all at once, but it's things like, you know, learning how to cut out

diet soda, which was one of the things that I did, or learning how to cut out artificial colors or learning how to cut out, you know, this artificial growth hormone that's in our dairy. And it's just picking something that's close to you that you feel matters the most and starting there and not trying to fix it all at once because that's probably a recipe for failure so you know to just pick one thing and begin to create the changes and do it in a way that is empowering to you um and then the films you know they continue kiss the grounds doing another film that's coming out soon and the biggest little farm is such a beautiful one that speaks to how we can work with Mother Nature instead of against her.

There are other films that are super terrifying, and those are the ones that shut people down. So, you know, they're out there. You can find them. But, you know, those ones are just so incredibly depressing to me. And depressing doesn't get you out of bed to take action. So I tend to lean much more towards the positive. And then in every city, there are just amazing stories. You know, these farm to table restaurants or different people that are advocating for changes in the school lunch programs, you know, every city has these stories. And, you know, the black farming community is really getting really loud. And it is, it is,

it is incredible and powerful, you know, to really see those voices. And it is incredible and powerful to really see those voices. And I do urge people to really listen there as well. Sylvan Aqua Farms is another, Chris Newman, and he is speaking truth every single day. And so really make sure that when you're following these different platforms on social media,

or when you're reading these different books or films, make sure that you're not just reading the ones from white people, because, you know, we tend to, you know, come from this one experience and that that is the shared experience of this food. And if you think about it, like the most beautiful food comes from these other countries and these other cultures and these other places, and it gives it the flavor and the vitality that we all love. So ensuring that those voices are represented in these conversations and in these decisions to me is critical. Yeah, it's so important. I mean, they play such vital roles in our food industry in general too, you know, growing and yeah. So that's really important. I'm so glad that you, I'm so glad he pointed that out. Yeah.

Well, for everyone listening, actually, well, before we do that, is there anything else that I haven't touched on that you want people to know about regarding our food, things they can do, things they need to know? I think it's just, don't be afraid to start small. I mean, I cannot emphasize that enough. I started so small. The first talk I gave was six people, you know, and now there's thousands of people and all these things. And I never could have imagined it would get there.

And you find courage as you go. Love really does make the impossible possible. I say that all the time. But as long as you're tapping into that as your source, it's an incredibly expansive source and people meet that well. And then I think, you know, do it with joy, like that we are still here with this opportunity to fix this, you know, like we actually get to be the generation that fixes this, what an incredible legacy we get to build to celebrate that, you know, and to make sure that that's the energy that you're showing

up with. It makes such a big difference than somebody who's doom and gloom and pessimistic. And, you know, there is plenty of data out there and plenty of reasons, but that is not actually going to change the situation. So thinking about ways that you can collaborate. But really, I think one of the most important is just don't be afraid to start small. You know, we just need to start. I love so much that this is part of your message, because this is also a similar approach that I have too. And you're right. I think you're so right. Because when people feel defeated and doom and gloom, they're not, they're less inclined to do something about it, you know, just kind of like open your hands like, okay, well, I guess we're

just, you know, we're shut out of luck. And I guess there's nothing we can do. But knowing that there's viable solutions and that they're very tangible and just approaching this with positivity and love and, and also remembering that the heart and the root of this is that we just want, we want everyone to be able to live long, healthy lives. And that to me is love, like taking care of yourself and feeding yourself with a body or sorry, feeding yourself with food that feeds your body, nourishes your body. That is the biggest act of self-love and self-care that you can do for yourself. And that really is the, at least for me, like the driving of all of this for me is that I just want everyone to have access to food that is healthy and nourishing

and is not going to cause them to have disease and die at an early age, you know, it's. Yeah. And I think, you know, it's, it's so important because each one of us really does matter. And I think that's also part of it is that a lot of the messaging people hear is like, well, I don't matter. Like what difference can one person make? One person can actually make a huge difference. And if it's starting book club or getting a movie together or showing a film at your children's school, I mean, there's so much that needs to be done. And I promise that courage inspires courage and that every time somebody's brave enough to stand up and do something and it inspires the next person to do something brave too. So it's finding that courage. Yeah. I love that so much. So before we go, I ask all of my guests

this, what is, what, or what are some of your health non-negotiables? So I know you have four kids, you're really busy, you're working a lot, but what are, you know, what are two things that you do no matter what, no matter how busy you are to take care of your own health and take care of yourself? You know, water. I mean, I just think, you know, you can't underestimate how important it is for hydration and that, you know, if you can't afford a water filter, whether it's a pitcher, you know, or something that actually is on your sink. Those water filters are really important because, as we've've learned the way we treat our farmland you know is all running into our water supply so clean high integrity water wherever you can get it you know I've made so many transitions as this girl that came out of Texas you know to where I am today and learning how to be more mindful of my footprint you you know, and how it lands on the planet.

And then I think, you know, for me, I mean, one of the most intolerable things was that recombinant bovine growth hormone being in our dairy and learning that we were the only developed country in the world that allowed it. The only developed country. I mean, Russia, China, India, across Europe, Australia, New Zealand. I mean, it's just they completely all said we're not allowing this into our food supply. And when I learned that, I thought, you know, I never want this to touch the house again. And so that was something that was that was a non-negotiable early on.

And then the artificial colors, again, you know, when I learned that that contributes to all this hyperactivity in kids, when I had, you know, four young children, I thought, gosh, get this stuff out. And it was fascinating to really conduct that in real time with these four young children that I had, because you could really, you could really actually see the impact. And the science there is so compelling that our own food companies remove those artificial ingredients voluntarily from the products that they sell overseas. So, you know, it was really those really, really deep, intense double standards that those were the first steps that I took. And then, you know, it really gets personal beyond that. You know, there's this tension between meat and plant. And, you know, animals are required for healthy soil because of the manure that comes

out of them and the way their hoofs hit the soil. And so it's not as absolute as people want it to be. And so my advice is what you do choose to eat, you know, make sure it's the cleanest, highest integrity in that category. So if you are a meat eater, you know, look for grass fed stuff, look for stuff that hasn't been treated with growth hormones and different feeds. And if you're plant based, look for organic and things that haven't been treated with dozens of pesticides. So, you know, it really is an education for all of us to embrace and recognizing that it's ongoing. You know, the more we learn, the more we continue to learn. And don't beat yourself up in that process, you know, that we are all on this learning curve together and it's not going to happen overnight.

So give yourself permission, you know, to participate and learn as you go. Yeah. Yeah. I love reminding people of that. I mean, because, you know, no one knows like what my journey is or what your journey has looked like. I mean, people probably look at me now and they're like, Oh, she hasn't dialed in. She eats healthy, but you know, this, I mean, 12 years ago I was, um, you know, in college eating fast food and like not taking care of myself at all. And it was all the little baby steps over the years, learning different things, taking different things out of my diet.

And it did not at all happen overnight. It took me a long time. Yeah. And I think it's important for people to recognize that, you know, like most things we've learned in life don't happen overnight, whether it's a kid learning how to ride a bike or an adult learning how to play the guitar, it does not happen overnight. And the same thing here, it's not going to happen overnight. So, you know, do the things that you know, you can stick with, you know, hydration is huge. I mean,

that one to me is just huge. So stick with that, you know, and then beyond it, you know, if there's something that you eat absolutely every single day, you know, definitely that would be a good place to start. Make sure that's the highest integrity that you can afford because, you know, it matters. Yeah, it really does. I love that so much. So for everyone listening, where can they find you online? Well, thank you so much, Courtney. I mean, they can find me at RobinOBrien.com. And then importantly, ReplantCapital.com is the work that we're doing really, you know, this important work today with this amazing team and having done so much of the work for so long by myself, the joy I have in working with this team that is just amazing every day has been so much

fun. And we really are, you know, engaging and transitioning stuff at scale, which is super exciting. And then, you know, The Unhealthy Truth is a book. I mean, it was such a personal journey. And, you know, as I speak through that and you hear my voice through that, you understand, you know, that it's coming from this place of, oh my gosh, how did this happen? It's not preachy. It's not a place of fear. And for a lot of people that are beginning the journey, it really is a good place to start. It's also a really good resource for people who have naysayers around them. And so is that TED Talk, you know, the TED Talk, people like, oh, my gosh, I shared this with my parents, and then they totally got it. Or, you know,

my wife didn't get it. And now she does. But again, I think it's sharing this information as a gift that it truly is. It's such a gift, you know, with a humility of saying, you know what, like there was zero, you know, I'm the last person that I thought would be doing this. And then I think people are much more open to receiving, you know, I'm the last person that I thought would be doing this. And then I think people are much more open to receiving, you know, if they feel like they're being leveraged or using fear, you know, preached at, I mean, most of us shut down. So, you know, just sharing the information for the gift that it is, I think is an important, it's an important way to do it. Yeah, I fully agree. Well, thank you so much. I'm going to add all of that, your TED talk,

your website, everything was shown out so that people can find it. Awesome, I fully agree. Well, thank you so much. I'm going to add all of that your TED talk, your website, everything was shown out so that people can find it. Awesome. Thank you. Thanks for listening to today's episode of the real foodology podcast. If you liked this episode, please leave a review in your podcast app to let me know. This is a resident media production produced by Drake Peterson and edited by Chris McCone. The theme song is called heaven by the amazing singer Georgie spelled with a J. Love you guys so much. See you next week. Bye.