Realfoodology - 62: Intuitively Eating with Jessi Jean

Episode Date: October 27, 2021

On today's episode I speak with with Certified Eating Psychology Coach, Jessi Jean. She is the host of the Dear Body Podcast and brings such a balanced perspective into the world of intuitive eating. We cover intuitive eating, how can people learn how to listen to their body, good vs bad foods and how to stop moralizing our food, how to find healing around your relationship to food, binge eating and so much more! Check out Jessi: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-dear-body-podcast/id1460137502 https://www.instagram.com/jessijeannn/

On today's episode of the Real Foodology Podcast. Well, I think there's an important thing to consider. One is there are things that are impacting our relationship with food and our body that we do need to address. They could be traumas. They could be self-sabotaging beliefs, limiting beliefs. But there's also hope in being able to heal your relationship with food and your body without having to have everything else in your life figured out.

Hey guys, you're listening to the Real Foodology Podcast. I am your host, Courtney Swan. Real Foodology started as a blog 10 years ago when I was getting my master's in nutrition and I really just needed an outlet to share all the things when I was getting my master's in nutrition. And I really just needed an outlet to share all of the things that I was learning about health and nutrition. And I was sharing a lot of recipes back then. Since then, 10 years later, it has completely transformed. It is now an Instagram. And of course, this podcast, I am so passionate about health, nutrition, biology, and just the way that our body works and how we can fuel our body with the best food so that we can really just feel good in

our bodies. That truly is ultimately my goal here with Real Foodology is just to show you how you can thrive and feel really good in your body because you want to, we want to have energy to do the things that we want to do. And we want to live the best, highest quality life that we can while we're on this planet. And I'm here to hopefully share from the experts on how you can do that and how you can implement these things into your life in a way that works best for you. Because ultimately, at the end of the day, it's all about you, and it's all about you feeling good in your body. And regardless of what the experts say or what anyone else says around you, you're going

to have to figure out truly what works and what feels best in your body. And regardless of what the experts say or what anyone else says around you, you're going to have to figure out truly what works and what feels best in your body. On today's episode, I am so excited. I am joined by Jessie Jean. She's a certified eating psychology coach, and she is also the host of the Dear Body podcast. We actually also did a recording for her podcast. So definitely make sure that you go over and check that out. It was such a great conversation. And I just, I really loved, I really love the perspective that Jesse brings to this conversation. She herself really struggled with a lot of disordered eating for a long time. And she kind of, the way that she described it was almost like a prison of her own mind. And she sits here now talking about it from the other side. And it's really cool to hear her perspective of women suffer in some way or another or have suffered in different periods in their life with their relationship with their body and food.

Because unfortunately, that's kind of how our society works. There's a lot of societal pressures. There's a lot of stuff put on as young girls. And there's a lot of focus on our bodies and our weight and food. And it really leads to a lot of women having morphed disordered perceptions of their body and of food. Now, of course, I say this with a lot of compassion because I know a lot of women have really struggled with this. And as with most things in life, it's a spectrum, you know, some women may have just struggled a little bit and then other women have really, it's been a lifelong battle. And, um, you know, regardless of whatever, wherever you lie on the spectrum, we can all agree that it's, it's really hard when you're, when you're in it and it can feel

sometimes like there's, there's no way you're ever going to get out of it. And this is why I love Jesse's message so much is that she really brings a lot of hope and, um, just a lot of really helpful concepts and perceptions. So I really hope that you enjoy this episode and that you get a lot out of it. We talk about her own journey, uh, also intuitive eating, how she got to a place where she has healed her relationship with food. We talk about her own journey, also intuitive eating, how she got to a place where she has healed her relationship with food. We talk about how people can learn how to listen to their body, how to find balance, good versus bad food, and how we really shouldn't be moralizing the foods that we eat because

what you eat doesn't mean something about you as an individual. We also dive into binge eating and she gives some tips and tricks on if you're struggling with this, how to find healing and all of that and overcome it. And we also dive into diet culture. This is such a great conversation. I'm so excited to share it with you. I hope you enjoy it. And as always, if you are enjoying the podcast, if you could please leave a rating and a review, it would mean so much to me. It helps this show so much.

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realfoodology at checkout for an additional 15% off. That's neurohacker, N-E-U-R-O-H-A-C-K-E-R.com slash realfoodology for an extra 15% off your purchase. Thanks to Neurohacker for sponsoring today's episode. Jesse, thanks so much for coming on today. I'm very looking forward to sharing, um, just sharing you and your thoughts around intuitive eating and how people can really, uh, form a healthier relationship with their, with the food. Cause I think this is so important. And I really, I haven't had this conversation yet on the podcast. So I'm very excited to have you on. Awesome. I am so happy to be here. Yeah. So why don't you start out first of all, for people who are unaware of you and your podcast, why don't you give them a

little bit of a background on what you do and what your philosophy is, I guess, with food? Yeah, totally. I feel like, well, first off, I am an intuitive eating coach. I'm a certified eating psychology coach. So what I do is I help women who are navigating an unhealthy relationship with food. I'm not a medical or mental health professional, but I am a coach. And the way that I support my clients is through understanding how to mentally reprogram their relationship with food. And I'm really passionate about kind of bridging the gap between the intuitive eating world and the fitness world because there's a ton of animosity going on between both worlds. And there doesn't need to be.

I come from a background of disordered eating. I struggled for over 10 years and I thought that the solution was going into the body building world. So I went deep in that for a while and that only exacerbated my struggles with food and totally wrecked my body image. And I finally crawled out of that and I started becoming really, really passionate about understanding the neuroscience of behavior change. And when I went that direction, I understand how the brain worked and how it was connected to how our brain and body were connected and understanding how food kind of played into

that and how my behaviors were very cyclical in nature. And I started to understand tools and strategies for working myself out of these cyclical patterns I had created. It was very, very liberating. And I had tried for years to heal my binge eating, overeating, emotional eating. I mustered up the strength to and the courage to put myself into therapy. I went to Overeaters Anonymous when I was in college. I was trying to figure out how to heal and it just felt impossible. And I started when I found the courage to reach out for help and I still was struggling. I started to feel like I must be broken. I must be the outlier.

I must be the one that nothing works for. This is going to be the thorn in my side for the rest of my life. And that was a very hopeless place. And I remember being in college and having this thought that I'm not sure I can continue on like this. I'm not sure life is worth it if I have to deal with these struggles because the behaviors I was engaging in with food, I mean, they were all over the place. It was, you know, from one day stealing my roommate's food

because I was in a moment of impulse and feeling so ashamed for doing that to eating in secret and hiding wrappers at the bottom of the trash can to chewing food and spitting it out to, you know, taking laxatives, all these different things. I was just on this roller coaster and it was exhausting. And so, um, through my, my journey, I've found my way into the intuitive eating world. And that was super supportive in me healing my relationship with food and my body. And, um, I also have now, um, been exploring really, really approaching health from a holistic standpoint and not feeling like, you know, understanding more about nutrition is the enemy to a balanced relationship with food or restrictive in any way.

It's just information that we can use. So my journey has taken me all these different directions. But through it, I think the thing that I'm most passionate about talking about is how we can heal this disordered, you know, this disordered thing that so many of us have going on with food and our body. And I found some pretty cool strategies that when working in conjunction with one another, um, are really powerful and have been powerful for a lot of the people I've had the opportunity to work with. That's amazing.

I mean, your story alone, I think is so important for people to hear because, you know, I, after talking to so many of my girlfriends and having conversations like this all the time, I found that I think the majority of women have some sort of struggle around food, you know, and it's obviously it's a spectrum, there's varying degrees of it, but I think it's very relatable. So what you mentioned that you kind of found some tips and strategies. Would you share those with us? This is really exciting. Organifi now has kid stuff.

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Totally. There's probably far too many for me to be able to fit in one podcast episode, but there's a number of tools and techniques and strategies that have been super transformative in me healing my relationship with food. And the very first thing I say to anybody who's struggling is I encourage an open mindset around, um, around approaching healing your relationship with food and your body. You may have heard a lot of different things from a lot of different places. And some of those things may have been supportive for you. Some of those things may have not helped you at all.

And if we can approach the healing journey from an open-minded place, it can be really powerful. I say to my clients too, if I say something and it doesn't resonate with you, that's okay. If you hear something from somebody else that doesn't resonate with you, that's okay. We don't have to write off everything that person or that source has to offer us because we could learn a lot if we're willing to be open-minded. And so the first, the first, my first piece of advice for those really deep in the struggles is to start exploring the concepts of intuitive eating. And it's okay if some of it doesn't resonate with you,

if you don't like it all, but start exploring some of the concepts because they can be super transformative. Now I've had a lot of people who have tried intuitive eating. They feel like they're spiraling out of control. It's a free for all with food. Um, and they feel, um, they feel like it won't work for them. They feel very discouraged in that process. And what I say is we need to understand some mental tools and techniques and some of those being mental collaboration, some different metacognition techniques. Um, one of my favorite, uh, mental collaboration tools is future pacing. In order to change our behaviors, we have to understand where our behaviors stem from. Our emotions are influencing our behaviors.

Our thoughts are influencing our behaviors. Researchers believe that true behavior change is belief change. And a lot of us are focused on all the things that we don't like about our relationship with food or body or the things we don't like. But we forget that in order to create the reality that we want, the way the brain's reticular activating system works is it goes to work to look for the things that align with whatever's floating around in our head. So whatever is in our present reality is there because it was first in our mind. And so if we want to collaborate and create a future that we want, whether that's with food, whether that's with our finances, whether that's with our body, whatever it is, we have to first kind of plant

those seeds mentally, water those seeds before they'll even become reality. And so future pacing is a strategy that we journal. It canaling it's, it can be done a number of different ways, but in, in the course I teach women a journaling technique. And, um, um, what we do is we start by identifying what it is that it's, and this is super easy for most of us identifying what it is you don't want. What don't you like about your relationship with food? What don't you like about your relationship with yourself or your body? And then once you have that, which is usually pretty easy for most people to identify, the harder part is starting to identify what is it that we want? Okay. I don't want to be binging. Oh, I don't want to be overeating. I don't want to be, uh, I don't want to hate my body. I don't

want to feel so insecure in my own skin. Okay, great. Well, what do you want? What do you want your relationship with food to look like? What do you want your relationship with your body to look like? And we go through this journaling exercise where we start to write out all the things that we want and how we want to feel, how we want to think, what we want to believe about ourselves and how we want to behave. And we do this in a, there's certain ways that we can do this that make it a little bit more effective and it can get very detailed, but that's the premise of one of the tools is starting to map out and vision cast what we want. And we write it in the present tense as if it's already our reality. And what we want to do is we just want to start to install thoughts into our mind that correlate with a direction

that we want to go to. And I think the best way to understand how our brain works, our brain's reticular activating system is to think about, this is a great analogy to understand it, is if you've ever wanted a new car, say you're in the market for a red 4Runner, and all of a sudden you decide that's the car that you want, you're driving, you're like, oh, there's a red 4Runner, there's a red 4Runner, oh, I see another 4Run. Are there any more forerunners on the road now than, you know, are there, are there more forerunners on the road now than before you wanted one or decided you wanted one? No, you're just noticing it. Likewise, if you have thoughts in your head that are self-sabotaging, if you're stuck in these self-sabotaging cycles with food, that's going to be what's in your reality until you start to install different things.

And so this is how we collaborate with our mind. Another beautiful way to think of mental collaboration and the power of the mind. And if you're driving, you don second, to close your eyes, and to imagine that you have in your hand half of a big, juicy lemon. And I want you to imagine what it feels like to hold a big, juicy lemon. It's cut in half. And I want you to bring that up to your nose and take a deep breath of that fresh lemon scent. Now squeeze a little bit of that juice. Now imagine taking a big bite, bring that lemon up to your mouth and take a big bite of that lemon. How many of you felt like you kind of salivated at the thought of a sour lemon? I did.

Right? Just even talking through this exercise that I've done a million times, I salivate just thinking about taking a bite of a big juicy lemon. So if the thought of a big juicy lemon can cause our mouth to salivate, what other thoughts are causing other things in our body? And how are they supportive and how are they inhibiting us? So mental collaboration is this idea that if we want certain result in our life, certain behaviors, if we want a certain outcome, we have to start looking at what's going on mentally. And future pacing, this journaling exercise is just one mental collaboration technique, but it can be really powerful and we can future pace the same things over and over and over to

start to install kind of a new record. Some of you have these broken records right now. We need to install a new one. So that's one tip. That's so interesting. I mean, it's, it's pretty similar to the conversation around like changing the neural pathways in the brain. You know, there's a lot of conversation about that right now, just in the health world in general. And, you know, you touched on something that's really important is that there really is there's this mental component of it that's really not talked that a lot of our drive for food and maybe certain cravings and things like that come from a place of either whether we're dealing with trauma in our life or we're dealing with something really hard that we can't fully grasp in our life. And so maybe we're, you know, really controlling with our food or whatever it is. So I think it's really important that people understand that there may be other underlying things going on that you need to address first before you can even start addressing the actual food. It's like you may not even think that there's a connection. For example, I actually

just shared this with you on your podcast, but I realized that I was able to heal a lot of my relationship with food after I healed the trauma that I went through as a kid after my little sister's accident. And I would have never made the correlation. I never even at the moment made the correlation. It wasn't until later that I was just feeling, you know, this sense that I needed to find some healing around that trauma. It was only until after I started diving into the grief and healing that trauma that I was able to look back and be like, oh, wow, this really had a ripple effect into so many different areas of my life, including my relationship with food. Yeah, absolutely. And there's healing is a holistic journey.

And one thing that I always say to women who are really frustrated, they're stuck in the cycles of, you know, diet restrict, binge restrict. And it's just they're they're maddening. Those cycles are absolutely maddening. Um, there's two, there's two different ways to think about it. One is, well, I think there's an important thing to consider. One is there are things that are impacting our relationship with food in our body that, um, we do need to address. They could be traumas. They could be self-sabotaging beliefs, limiting beliefs. But there's also hope in being able to heal your relationship with food and your body without having to have everything else in your life figured out. And I went to therapy for many years to try and

figure out my relationship with food. And we would do a lot of this digging into past traumas and, and working through, uh, different things from my childhood. And it was very therapeutic and it was powerful. And do I think it probably supported my healing journey? Absolutely. But I was still struggling in these cyclical patterns where I would binge and overeat and then restrict. And I would feel all this guilt and shame. And that was so frustrating. And what's really cool is you can learn tools and techniques to heal your relationship with food and your body and begin to make amazing strides in finding food freedom without having to heal all of the past trauma. Do I think you should heal all of the past trauma? Absolutely. Do I

think it will support your food and body journey? Absolutely. But I don't want anyone to feel discouraged that they're going to have to look into big, scary traumas that they're not ready to look into, that they couldn't pursue healing their relationship with food. Cause you absolutely can. There's, there might be some roadblocks or there might be some things where it's like, man, I have this, this core belief that is really causing me to struggle to move forward that I need to tackle. Um, but we can, you know, healing is, is we can approach it from a multitude of places. Yeah. I'm glad that you brought that up. Cause you're right. There is, um, you don't, it's kind of, it goes back to like, you don't have to figure out everything in your life overnight. You know, some of it, you may be, you may be starting to

find healing in ways that you're not even able to recognize yet. And it's just, you know, our, we're always, um, we're always growing and learning and healing throughout our entire lifetime. You know, we were probably never going to get to a place where we're just like, Oh, I'm totally healed and free of everything. You know, it's just not, it's not realistic. And so it's good to have that, that reality in, you know, in, in a perspective. So how, what, how did you get to this place where you were struggling, um, you know, with the restricting and the binging? And then how did you get to this place where you were struggling, um, you know, with the restricting and the binging? And then how did you get to this place where you feel like, would you say you feel like you, you've kind of, um, gotten to a healthier place with all of that now? And how did you do

it? Yeah, 100%. I don't even feel like the same person I was six, seven years ago, entirely, entirely different relationship with food and my body. 10 years ago, I was in my early 20s, and I was struggling in the depths of it. And it was all-consuming. I thought about food from the moment I woke up to the moment I went to bed, whether it was in the forefront of my mind or the back of my mind. And I was weighing myself multiple times a day, taking my measurements. I was constantly body checking. And I was just so sucked into it. My whole life revolved around how I looked. And I was able to go out and be successful in college and my career and other things. But it was really occupying so much mental real estate. And I was fighting this silent battle that nobody really knew about.

And, um, eating disorders don't have a look. And I remember when I finally mustered up the strength to, um, share with my mom that I was struggling in my relationship with food. I remember she told me, and that I felt like I had a disordered relationship with food. She told me, I don't, I don't think so because you would probably, you'd probably look like it and you seem to be a healthy weight and that's, and, and there was no ill intention there. She just didn't think that I could possibly be struggling because I didn't look, you know, um, sickly thin. I didn't look, you know, to be in, you know, an overweight place. It just, it wasn't affecting the way that I looked.

I was, my weight was certainly fluctuating, but not in such a way where, um, I looked sick. And this is the problem with mental, um, mental illness is there's not a certain look to it. Somebody can be very, they can appear very, very happy and be dealing with a lot of depression or anxiety. Um, and I looked like I had it all together on the outside, but I was fighting the silent battle. And the journey to recovery was long and it was windy and it was up and it was down. And like I shared earlier, I put myself into therapy. I was in Overeaters Anonymous and I wasn't finding answers there. And so I then thought, okay, I'm learning about nutrition and fitness. I'm going to go deep into that. And so I went deep into that world. And then I went even deeper into bodybuilding and then that exacerbated my

struggles. And then I started to get connected with, uh, individuals who knew more about, uh, nutrition from a holistic standpoint and following accounts that were, um, you know, that were talking about the science of food. And it was helping me feel a little bit more empowered and less like I needed to be a slave to a meal plan or a diet or a certain calorie intake. And then that kind of led me in the direction of looking deeper into understanding the brain and how the brain works. And I actually, when I was in college, I went to a conference and this woman, I went to a conference with my mom. It was this Christian woman's conference. And this woman got up and

talked about her addiction to alcohol. And she recommended, she recommended this book called The Last Addiction by Sharon Hirsch. And it was a book all about different types of addiction. And I'm a child of an addict. And I I thought I'm going to get this book, get this book for my loved one. And so I got this book and I started to read it and I thought, wow, like everything that they're talking about inside this book is I feel like I can relate even though I'm not addicted to alcohol or drugs or gambling or sex. Like I felt like I understood the individual's stories. I was

resonating with them. And that kind of sent me on a tangent of starting to look into brain-based reprogramming, and understanding the brain, and understanding behavior change, and the science of behavior change. So I went down that rabbit hole. And it was just Google rabbit hole after article, after random podcast here. And I started to put together these little pieces, um, to navigate my way out and slowly, but surely I ran into intuitive eating. And at first I thought it was a laughable idea. Um, when one of my friends at the time told me about it, I thought this is absolutely crazy. If I tried intuitive eating, I would be able to deepen a tub of ice cream every night.

Like there's no way. And so it, but I was intrigued and because I had an open mind, I was willing to read and willing to listen and willing to do more research. And eventually it kind of set me on this path where I was so sick and tired of tracking every gram of protein, carbs, and fat that I realized I needed to do something else. And so I started to practice the principles of intuitive eating and slowly but surely, while simultaneously feeling like I was kind of spiraling out of control by not tracking everything, slowly but surely, I found my footing when I let all that pressure out.

And through a lot of practice and a lot of patience and a lot of time working on it, actively working on my mindset, I started to find relief from the crazy impulses using the different mental collaboration and metacognition techniques and tools. And as that pressure started to release, I started to see a light at the end of the tunnel. I was like, okay, maybe I'm not going to be in these binge overeating cycles the rest of my life. That's amazing. I just love hearing this story because it sounds like you were really in, it's almost like you were in a mental prison, you know, and you were able to free yourself and allow yourself to have just a healthier relationship around food.

And, you know, it's interesting because I find that a lot of people like you touched on and I would love to dive into more of this, that people are scared of the notion of intuitive eating because they feel like they're just going to like free fall and then just totally, you know, like you said, like fall into like a tub of ice cream every night and derail all of the efforts they're trying to do in order to stay healthy. But what I find so interesting about all of this is that, you know, if we look back at our ancestors, they weren't worried about calories and is there fat in this or whatever it is. And of course, it may be hard for some people listening to this to be like, well, yeah, because they lived in a totally different time. But if you think about it from like a biological standpoint, our bodies are built with this intuitive knowing of what our bodies need and what is going to be really standpoint, our bodies are built with this intuitive knowing of what our bodies need and what is going to be really good for our bodies. But how do you find that balance in this modern world that we're living in? And how do you, um, what do you tell

people maybe that are scared that they're going to fall into this, like fall off the tracks or whatever you want to call it when they try to implement this? Yeah. I say, you know, you don't have to dive in head first. You don't have to be the person who goes to the water park and goes on that slide where, you know, your ass barely touches the slide because it's so steep. You don't have to be that person. You can be the person who goes to the water park and goes down the rolling slide or, you know, wades through the, the super gentle pool. You can be that person if you're terrified of spiraling out of control. And I feel like, um, a lot of intuitive eating practitioners maybe don't recognize that these

are huge fears of, of people considering intuitive eating. Cause it feels like how many of you have, you know, tried to eat intuitively and, um, you know, maybe let off the gas on your birthday or a holiday and, you know, loosen up the restriction a little bit. And it was just this binge eating free for all. And that's like, okay, if that's going to be what my reality is, I don't want it. And I understand those fears because the fear of gaining weight and the fear of, you know, what will happen if I don't have these rules and restrictions and parameters in place. So what I always say to people who are in that headspace is I say, hey, I totally get it. Taking it step by step is really important. And we can slowly release the bottle cap of this internal world

that's so highly pressurized. And we can slowly let out that pressure. I like to think of our internal world for those who are struggling with disordered eating as like a soda bottle with the cap screwed on really tight that we've shaken up. And every time, you know, it's a holiday and we're like, okay, I'm not going to worry about my meal planner. I'm not going to track. It's like we unscrew that bottle top and it just sprays everywhere. Yeah. And so, so we can also unscrew that bottle top really slowly and we can let out that pressure little by little if we understand how and a lot of us don't really understand how maybe we've read the intuitive eating book which is amazing highly recommended by Evelyn Triboli but without having support in

that process it can be so scary we can feel so alone because we don't know what's normal. And what's normal is in, and this sounds so ironic, but as ironic as it sounds, binge eating, overeating and emotional eating are part of binge eating recovery, overeating recovery. So if you're experiencing those things, it's normal, like pressure is coming out, but learning how to leave that, you know, that metaphorical bottle cap off. So we don't rebuild pressure is what I think a lot of people don't realize. And so, uh, we can take it super slow. We don't have to go into the grocery store and say, okay, no, there's no rules and restrictions. I'm just going to allow myself to eat whatever I want that can feel paralyzing for some people. Um, so we can take it step-by-step in a very methodical manner and recognize where

our physical restrictions and our mental restrictions are and work through those slowly. And what's great is the nervous system doesn't like fast change. So going slow is actually way more supportive for our mind and our body. So I would love to hear your perspective on this. Um, something that I struggle with sometimes in the, just like in the fitness world, the bodybuilding world, um, you know, the kind of like, what does it fit in your macros kind of thing where there seems to be this, like either you are focused on health and that means that you are totally disordered eating and this is super unhealthy, or you're just like having a free for all and you're eating whatever,

and we're not worrying about, about the health, you know, aspect of it. How do you find this middle ground where it's healthy for your mental state, but also you are prioritizing foods that are healthy for you, but you're not allowing yourself to go down in this like disordered path. Like how can you kind of navigate that balance of, of trying to prioritize eating healthy foods while also taking care of your mental health throughout this process? Um, such a beautiful question and so important for so many who are trying to heal because

most of us, I'd say the majority of us want to take care of our bodies. And we also don't want to be in mental turmoil where, you know, all these highly palatable foods are so triggering that anytime we're in the presence of them, we go crazy on them because that's not healthy either. So how do we do that? I think we have to be super conscious with our language. How we speak about food, how we speak about ourselves is so impactful. So if we can stop looking at food as good and bad, but rather there's some foods that are nutritious, there's some foods that are full of sugar and they're fun to eat and that's enjoyable and that's okay, but they don't always make us feel the best. I think if we can recognize our emotional connection to food and how it's affecting our emotions, I think that's

also really powerful. But balancing food you know, food freedom and releasing restrictions with trying to honor our health. I think the key here that is so powerful, uh, for so many that I talked to is recognizing that healthy, nutritious, real food also can be and gets to be satisfying. And we need to prioritize satisfaction. Like you were sharing on my podcast, you're not just going to go and eat food that's healthy for the sake of health. You're not going to choke something down that you don't actually enjoy. And this is so important. The engine that drives successful intuitive eating is satisfaction. And I think diet culture has, um, caused us to really struggle with understanding how to enjoy food because we think of healthy foods as, you know, maybe boiled, uh, boiled

chicken or baked chicken and steamed vegetables. And we forget that we can cook in with olive oil and we can have garlic butter and we can have marinades and sauces and even jellies on all of those foods, gravies and things like that make nutritious, healthy food more fun and more satisfying. And when we're more satisfied, we have less of a desire to binge. And if we can check the box, if you've ever been in the place where you felt biologically full but not satisfied and you keep craving and craving and craving it's because satisfaction is your brain is hardwired to move you towards pleasure and away from pain in the direction of satisfaction and if your brain is not receiving that when you're eating you're going to keep craving things so we have to recognize it's not just nice to be satisfied with food. It's imperative. So how do we combine satisfaction with, um, you know, alternatives that are also great

for our body? I love that you touched on so many things that, um, that really helped me in my journey in finding a healthier relationship with food. It was really, uh, the thing that helped me the most, I think was, was reframing it in my brain. It was more, I realized for me that it was more about, I wanted to feel really good in my body. I wanted to have energy to go out through my day. I didn't want to feel like crap, you know?

And so when I started recognizing certain foods that I would eat, that then I would feel sick later and they just weren't, um, they weren't doing good things to my body. I started really not wanting to eat them as much just because I, I made the connection there, you know? Um, and that really helped me a lot. And then also I think you, you touched on something else that's really important and we want to enjoy our food. You know, I had a conversation with a girlfriend recently who was, um, she, she used to be kind of in the bodybuilding world and she was like, Oh, Courtney, there was a time that I wouldn't even put spices on my food. And I was like, that is horrible. Like how, cause Oh my gosh. And like, and look, I don't want to shame anyone if they're in that place right now,

you know, like that's not, that's not at all my intention. It's more just like, I want everyone to enjoy their food. You know, I, I, I really believe that you can eat and not only that, I believe, I know that it's possible that you can enjoy the foods that you're eating and genuinely love what you're eating. And it also, uh, eat foods that are good for you, you know, and that really was a chain that really helped me a lot. And then also you touched on another thing that I think is really important is like not categorizing foods as like, oh, this is bad for me and this is good. You know, we need to stop moralizing foods and we need to start thinking at it from a different angle of like, okay, I can have this. But, you know, is this going to be like the best thing for my body?

No. But that doesn't always matter. It also depends on your priorities. If you're just like laying on the couch and watching a movie and you want to like eat some cookies and you're not going to feel that great, like, okay, fine. You know, like, and that's your decision. And also, um, learning to just be like, okay with that and say like, you know what, maybe this isn't like the healthiest meal, but it makes me feel good because I'm really enjoying what I'm eating. And I think that's really important for people to understand too. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, um, making peace with, um, what may

happen if, uh, we enjoy a food that doesn't work with our body and being okay with that beforehand is really powerful for me. You know, sometimes it's like, you know, I think dairy might also be a contributor to flaring this rash. Uh, but I've been moving all week and I'm really tired. And my mom went out and bought me a gluten-free pizza and it has dairy on it, but that was so kind of her to go and get a gluten-free pizza. Since I know gluten is, you know, cause I have this rash on my face. For those of you who are listening, I've been dealing with perioral dermatitis. Um, but, um, and I think gluten's a trigger. Um, but she went out and got this gluten-free pizza and that was so kind of her. And I'm like, you know what? I'm exhausted.

I'm going to enjoy this, this pizza, even if dairy is going to, you know, maybe affect me a little bit. I don't think it did that much, which was good, but you know, it's, it's making peace with the outcome, um, kind of prior instead of doing something mindlessly and then feeling guilt and shame for what we did. Yeah. Oh, that's so important. I have a girlfriend who, um, she,

in her younger years really struggled a lot with acne and she's prone to it still. And she knows triggers that she can directly correlate when she eats something like she's like, I'm getting a pimple in like four hours. And it happens when she has certain things. But what I love so much is that she, I would say maybe like 90% of the time is very careful not to eat those foods because it's really important to her that she's not breaking out and it's a driving factor for her. But then she has these moments when we're out where she's just like, F it, I'm having the cheese. I'm going to deal with the pimple later. And I love that mentality. And then she'll like joke about it

and laugh about it. And it doesn't derail her. You know, she's just like, you know what? I made my, I made my bed and I'm sleeping in it and it's fine. You know, it's not a big deal. Totally. And I think that's so, I think that's so powerful when we can get to that place of ownership. Yeah, absolutely. And also, so I kind of want to go into binge eating a little bit if you're okay with that, because, um, I know this is something that a lot of women struggle with and they're really trying to get a handle on it. So what are some of your tips into how someone can, um, can heal their relationship in from a binge eating standpoint? Yeah. Well, binge eating is incredibly, incredibly frustrating. And what I always say is a lot of people will ask me like, how do I know if I'm a binge eater or if I'm, you know, have a disordered

relationship with food. And I always share some very simple questions that can help us identify if we have an opportunity to heal our relationship with food. Some of those questions are, do I ever feel like an outside force is driving me to do things, even though I intellectually know I don't want to do this thing with food? Do I ever feel guilt or shame or fear with food? Do I ever eat in secret? Do I feel neurotic around food? Do I feel obsessive compulsive? Am I constantly, you know, am I obsessing over everything that goes in my mouth rather than, you know, approaching nutrition from a place of compassion? So there's a lot of different questions we can ask ourselves to identify

if there's perhaps some unhealthy tendencies. The diagnostic manual, the diagnostic criteria for diagnosing eating disorders goes into some very detailed specifics of what somebody would be doing or what it would look like if they're struggling with binge eating disorder. And I want to make the distinction that we don't have to be disordered in order to be doing some unhealthy things with food and be worthy of getting help or getting support. So if you're in a place where you just feel like your relationship with food is not where you want it to be, there are tools and techniques that we can utilize to find more freedom and more ease and more effortlessness with food.

And I think the very first thing is understanding the brain and understanding behavior-based techniques to change our behavior, excuse me. And I think it's really powerful to recognize that so much of what we're doing with food has very little to do with the food. In fact, it has a lot more to do with what's going on in our brain. And so it might feel like it's all about the food right now, because maybe that's what you're thinking about all the time. It might feel like it's all about your body, because that's what you're thinking about all the time. But when we get into these cycles and these habits with food that become cyclical, we literally just train in a neuropathway into our brain. And now we're just operating in this kind of repetitive fashion and it feels like a broken record. And so getting out of that,

we have to understand one, we're not crazy. If you're dealing with it, you're totally not crazy. It sucks. It doesn't feel fun at all. Um, but the things that you're doing right now to find control with food, a lot of the times are the things that are actually causing you to spiral out of control with food. And so a lot of these rules and these restrictions and following this meal plan and following that meal plan tend to work in the short term before we kind of fatigue and we end up spiraling out of control and we end up binging. So we need to learn strategies that will help us release that internal pressure that I was referring to earlier, because as we begin to release that and we understand how to process emotions in a healthy way. What we'll notice is the behaviors tend to,

the impulsive feelings tend to dissipate a little bit. And when we learn strategies to meet food from a place of compassion and not fear, when we learn how to reconnect with our body and to feel connected to our hunger, to feel connected to our hunger, to feel connected to our fullness, to feel connected to our satiety, to not be afraid of certain food. Um, we start to move in more of a flow with food instead of it feeling so forceful. Um, so how do we heal binge eating? That's such a loaded question because there's so many components to the healing journey. Um, but I, I really do recommend starting to understand brain-based techniques and looking into the neuroscience of behavior change. I had a leading

neuroscientist on my podcast, Dr. Caroline leaf, and we talk all about how the brain works in relation to food. And so that's always a place I point people to. If you're really wanting to understand the science of what's going on in your brain, if you're feeling kind of crazy when it comes to your relationship with food and your body, that podcast with Caroline Leaf is always where I point people to. I think it just does a really good job of helping demystify what seems pretty confusing. So healing binge eating, it is such a journey. It's a complex journey, but it's also one that I feel while it's not easy, it is really simple.

And what I mean by that is while it's complex, it's simple. And what I mean is that what it takes to heal and no longer be living in those cyclical patterns is habituation. And we have to train our brain through habituation. And it's just a lot of repetition. And when I say a lot, I mean, sometimes a maddening amount of repetition, but in order to create new neural pathways, the way we've created the ones that we're operating by now, we just have to repeat new ways of thinking new ways of feeling and new ways of behaving over and over and over again. And sometimes the journey of healing,

binge eating or overeating can feel like we're swimming upstream. And the reason it feels like that is because we're going against our brain's automatic programming. But eventually there becomes a tipping point where all of a sudden we've swam upstream long enough that we've turned a corner and now we're starting to ride the wave. And that's when these behaviors become programmed into our brain, new behaviors with food, new ways of operating with food, new ways of feeling about our body of thinking about ourselves or respecting ourselves. So it's, it's a process. And it's one that I always say, while it might be intimidating to get started, I promise it's worth every ounce of energy, effort, and time required because having an easy and effortless relationship with food is, I swear, the greatest gift that I ever fought for

because now I feel like I gained back my life. I've gained back so much mental real estate and I'm able to go forward and live my life without this constant nagging voice inside my head or this crippling insecurity. So, um, I don't think I could ever summarize all that it takes to heal. Um, but it's definitely all the effort is worth it. Yeah. That's amazing. And all I kept thinking about as I was hearing you talk about this is that it's, it reminds me of, I'm sure everyone, hopefully everyone has seen this graph where, um, it's been circulating on Instagram and everything where it shows like what people think success looks like and what it actually looks like. And, you know, you think it's just like a straight line and it's actually like to the left, to the right, up, down. It's like all over the place.

And I kind of feel like this is also can be applied to your healing journey around food. It's like one day you're going to have a really bad day and you're going to go sideways. And then you're going to think that, you know, everything is derailed, but you have to remember that success is not just this like linear line. You're gonna, you're gonna have your, you know, things that you slide back into maybe for a day, but it's important to remember that it's like, you have to zoom out and look at the overall picture. And like you said, it's worth fighting for, which I think is so, that was very, I mean, that's like such an incredible statement. Um, so, and, and I do want, I want to make a note too. Um, I have found personally in my own life that I'm less inclined to want to, I don't know, like polish off a box of cookies or

whatever it is when I just allow myself to have some, you know, it's like the second these foods become something that I'm allowed to have, I don't suddenly feel like I want to have the whole bag or the whole box or whatever it is. You know, it's like me telling you not to think of a purple unicorn, like whatever you do, Courtney, don't think of a purple unicorn. Like, don't let that image come into your mind. It's I mean, it's the same thing.

It's like as soon as you tell yourself not to focus on something or not to have something, it's all we think about. It's all we long for. It's all we want. And, um, to, to get through that messy middle of saying, okay, I'm going to allow some of these things. And maybe right now I have a bunch of built up internal pressure. And so when I start to allow or introduce some of these trigger foods or foods that have been formerly off limits back into my diet, maybe I am going to eat them in quantities that don't feel balanced, but I promise you that phase doesn't last forever. If you are, if you have the, you know, the courage and the bravery and oftentimes the support to keep pushing through that phase. And, um, that's why I always

repeat that binge eating, overeating, emotional eating is all a part of the healing journey. Yeah, absolutely. That's so beautiful. So I know you talk about this a lot and I kind of want to dive into this a little bit. I want to talk about diet culture. Um, I know it's very pervasive in the health and wellness world and the fitness world and bodybuilding world and all this stuff. Well, and I, I mean, just in society in general, how can someone, how can we kind of like reject diet culture, um, and kind of come at it from like a healthier place? I listened to a podcast of yours that I heard you say something that I really liked. And it was something along the lines of like, it's okay to get mad at diet culture that promotes weight loss and the lies that have led

you to believe that you're a failure when a new diet stopped working. And I really loved that. And I think it's so important for people to hear that. Yeah, I want to just hear your thoughts on kind of diet culture and how we kind of reject it and find a new way around this. Yeah, totally. Um, diet culture is a set of beliefs that idolizes, um, certain ways of eating and worships this unrealistic thin ideal and attaches all this morality to food and our behaviors with food. And I think we have to recognize that, you know, even things like meal prepping or having

a fitness goal, or even dare I say a weight goal or an aesthetic goal don't have to be all linked into diet culture. Um, but oftentimes they are. And that, that association with nutrition and association with fitness and with having fitness goals or wellness goals, like it kind of, you know, rejecting diet culture kind of gets, um, wrapped up in all of that. And I think we have to be, we have to think critically and realize like, what is the enemy that we're fighting here? I think it's, um, a set of beliefs, uh, an ideology, and it's not fitness. It's not eating real food. It's not, um, you know, it's not having goals. Those things aren't bad. It's not even meal prepping. It's not like diet culture doesn't own meal prepping, you know, it's not having goals. Those things aren't bad. It's not even meal prepping.

It's not like diet culture doesn't own meal prepping, healthy food, fitness goals. It doesn't own that. I love that. Yeah. And so if we can start to disassociate those two things, I think we can find a really beautiful balance. And when we start to recognize, and I think at first, if you're really struggling with your relationship with food, I think it first, if you're really struggling with your relationship, uh,

with food, I think it can be really powerful to go through your feed and take some time away from being so drenched in like fitness culture. Um, and just kind of give yourself a little bit of space to see other aspects of the world. Um, and that could be following, you know, funny meme accounts or design really into design accounts right now. Cause I'm just bought a new home, you know, just allowing yourself to see other things. Cause we can get so obsessive compulsive with that. Um, but yeah, I think we reject diet culture by, um, rejecting the things that, um, make us feel guilt and make us feel shame and make us feel less of a human for what we choose to do or not do with food or our body, because we don't need

to allow those our way of eating or indulging or any of that to cause us to feel those things. And I think we also have to recognize, um, when we're idolizing, uh, thinness or the thin ideal, or when we are objectifying ourselves, that's called self objectification. We're looking at ourselves as no more than an object to be viewed. And so we body check or picking ourselves apart. And we also, um, a lot of times subconsciously, uh, objectify other people. And we do this by, it seems harmless, but it's actually really dangerous to compliment people on weight loss and compliment people on the way that they look because then they view themselves. It reinforces that they are an object to be viewed rather than an experience to be had rather than an instrument. If we can start to recognize when we self-objectify and when we objectify other people, even when it's can start to recognize when we, we self-objectify and we

objectify other people, even when it's in our head, when we're walking through the grocery store and we look over and, you know, we see, we see that woman and we're like, man, like if I had legs like her, she looks great. Or, or at least I don't look like that, but I'm not happy with how I look. We have all of these thoughts and I just want to call them out because a lot of us feel so much shame for some of the thoughts we have, like, wow, that wasn't really, that wasn't that nice, but we have so many more of them that we don't realize are harmful. And if we can recognize that and say, wait a second, I am, I am demoralizing myself. I'm, you know, boiling myself down to no more than an object or this person I'm thinking about or looking at or talking to, you know,

I'm treating them as no more than an object. Like there's so much more to us. And so I think those are some of the main things we can do to start rejecting diet culture. And when we're thinking about pursuing, you know, a nutrition plan or a fitness plan or whatever it is, I think recognizing where we're feeling restricted and where we're starting to feel internal pressure build, if any of it's causing us to feel anxiety or stress, it might not mean that that thing is necessarily bad. It just might not be right for us right now. And I think, um, I think that's really important too. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's so important. I love that. And I want to add onto this to something that has really helped me a lot is releasing some of that shame.

I mean, you kind of said this a little bit, but I feel like there's so much shame around this, just the whole conversation of food and diets and our bodies and everything. And if we can get to a place where we can just release it. And something that's really helped me with that actually is just having gratitude for having a body on this earth. You know, if you're able to take a Zoom out and look at it from a place of like, wow, my body does a lot for me every single day. Just a simple act of digesting your food or breathing the air in your lungs.

And it can sound so like cheesy when you think about it, but if you really break it down, like our bodies do really amazing things for us. And that really helped me a lot to have a different kind of perspective. And I found a lot of this is a lot of perspective shifts, you know, and when you start kind of just saying like, wow, thank you. Like I have a body and hopefully most people listening, like I have a body that, that allows me to walk places and do things and digest food.

And it really, our bodies are pretty magical. They're like miracles if you think about it. Yeah. And I think if we make our goals, if we shift our goals from, from weight and aesthetics as being our focus when it comes to nutrition or when it comes to fitness and those things aren't, they aren't, they aren't inherently bad. There's a lot of dangers we, we see, um, in the research when we have a primary focus on weight or aesthetics. Um, but it's, it's not inherently wrong to have a desire to lose weight or to, to set those types of goals. But I do think, um, if we practice shifting our goal setting into what do I want to experience through my body? It's magical

how it transforms how we take care of our body. I want to experience being able, instead of a goal of I want to lose weight, um, perhaps a goal for a mother is I want to be able to have the energy to, uh, play with my kids. I want the experience of being able to keep up with my children. And we set that as our goal. And then it, and then we approach that goal from a holistic standpoint. Well, in order for me to have energy, I need to get in bed right after I put my kids to bed. So I can wake up feeling more rejuvenated or, um, you know, I need to, I need to drink more water. I need to be better about, you know, taking vitamins. I need to be better about eating more well-balanced. And we start to approach the goal from a holistic standpoint when it's an experience-based goal.

And the only reason we tend to chase weight loss goals or body-based goals is because what we hope achieving that goal will allow us to experience. But how many of you have lost weight and you still didn't feel good enough and you, it wasn't all the magic that you thought it would be. Right. And that's just kind of proof that it's really usually not all about the weight. It's about an experience. Yeah. It's a, it's internal. It's a feeling that we're chasing. Yeah. Yeah. And actually you bring me to another point that I really wanted to talk about was, um, I find sometimes in these conversations that now, now that we're aware of how damaging diet culture is, we've gotten to talk about was, um, I find sometimes in these conversations that now,

now that we're aware of how damaging diet culture is, we've gotten to this place where, um, sometimes it can even be shameful for people to admit that they want to lose weight or they want to get healthier. And I always try to bring this conversation back around to a place of what I believe is that you can love your body, be comfortable in your body, embrace whatever part of your journey that you're on while also at the very same time be striving towards new goals of let's say that you want to lose weight or you want to get more energy or whatever it is. I think it's okay to have that balance as long as you're not going to a place where it's going to be detrimental to your mental health.

Totally. And I think this is where we really need to bridge the gap between the, you know, body confident, body love, intuitive eating industry and fitness and nutrition. I think there's this beautiful intersection that exists. And I don't think either side needs to demonize either side. I think there's, you know, this, this place we can, we can balance both of them. And I don't want anybody to feel shame or guilt or fear, or like they're doing something wrong because they're trying to pursue intuitive eating, but they've heard an intuitive eating practitioner say, you know, you gotta, you gotta let go of all your weight loss goals.

You just gotta accept the body that you're in. And I think that, um, we do want to make peace with our body. We want to work towards believing we are more than our body. Absolutely. But I don't ever want anybody to feel stuck. And like, they don't have full autonomy over their body, what they want to do with their body because, um, we don't need anybody policing our body in the name of anything. Um, and so I think it's, uh, really important that we take our power back and we get to make decisions that feel in alignment for us. And if you have a weight loss goal, if you have a fitness goal, um, you do you just know, just know, be informed that there are risks involved when we pursue certain things. And there's certain ways to pursue certain things that

are going to be more or less supportive for our mental health and wellbeing. And so I'm just an advocate for, um, you know, women and men making a well-informed decisions. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. That was so well said. So before we go, um, I ask everyone on my podcast, this question, do you have any health non-negotiables? That means that no matter what, these are things that you prioritize. They can be to prioritize your mental health. I think I shared some of mine with you where I get a hike in every day to go outside and be in nature and I get greens in every day. Whatever those are for you that help you prioritize your health every day no matter how busy you

are. That's a great question. I'm going to be totally honest. This year has wrecked me in terms of so, and I want to be honest because I feel as though health professionals really feel this pressure to be so put together in terms of how they take care of themselves. And I've gone through a lot this year through challenges in my career to grief, losing my stepdad to health challenges, surgery. Like this has been the year that, um, has taken me to kind of the depths and is there's finally a light at the end

of the tunnel. So I'm not in that place anymore. We just bought a house. It's exciting. Things are moving in the right direction, but, um, they're almost every health practice for my mental health and physical health kind of dwindled and went out the window. And I felt like I've just been surviving this year. However, in all the years of practicing taking care of my health and well-being, there are some things that I know keep me from drowning. And so know that you don't have to pursue health and wellness from a perfect place. And some of those things that have kept me from completely going under when I've been on the brink of anxiety attacks and just complete mental breakdowns.

There was a actually not that long ago, a few months ago, I called the suicide prevention hotline. I was in a hotel room in Austin, Texas, just, um, I was just breaking mentally in every which way. And I was having these really dark, scary thoughts. And I haven't even, I don't even think I haven't shared this anywhere on social media. Um, so you're welcome. Everybody who didn't want to hear all this heaviness. Um, so it was been a really challenging year. Um, but here's, here's the non-negotiable that I have, reaching out for help. I know that I need help. And I know, I'm not willing to do that anymore. I'm having dark suicidal thoughts. I'm going to call the suicide prevention hotline. I'm feeling like I don't know what's going to happen in my marriage. I'm going to start reaching out to my therapist

and all of the people that support my marriage. I, um, you know, I feel like I'm drowning health wise. I'm going to contact every doctor and health professional I can to get answers. And I used to be somebody who felt like I had to hold it all together myself. And now I just know when the, when the ship's going down, I'm going to call in reinforcement. And so I would say that's my non-negotiable and that has kept me going in seasons like the one I'm just coming out of that have been so challenging. Um, and I don't have shame in that anymore. I actually feel very empowered that I'm willing to call a hotline or, you know, reach out to my therapist or send a text to my friends and tell them, I really need you to check

in on me because I'm having really dark thoughts and I don't, I don't like this feeling. Um, so that has, I think that's served me really well. And I think that would be my, my answer. That was amazing. And I just want to commend you for being so honest. And also I think this will help a lot of people because, you know, when you open the door and you're vulnerable, it opens the door and allows, um, for lack of a better word, permission for others to reach out and get help and, um, and be vulnerable as well. So thanks for sharing that.

Yeah, totally. Thank you so much for, for having me on. Yeah, this has been such a, uh, an amazing conversation. I'm so glad that we dove into this and I knew you'd be the perfect person to go into this. Cause you really, um, you bring a really good balance to this whole conversation, which is what I think is really lacking right now. And we really need that. Thank you so much. Yeah. There is a balance to be had in any of you who are listening and you're feeling so conflicted. You're, you're listening to nutrition information. You're listening to intuitive eating information. You're trying to be body positive. You're, you know, you're trying to figure out like, where do you, where do you fit?

Know that you don't have to fit my definition, Courtney's definition, any of our definitions, you get to decide where you want to fit, what you want to take from everything that you hear that feels good for you. And I always say, take what feels good and leave what doesn't. Yes. Yes, exactly. Cause at the end of the day, you're the only person that lives in your body and you're going to have to figure out what works best for you. 100%. It's amazing. So, so yeah, I hang out there and then my podcast is probably my favorite place. The deer body podcast just had Courtney on. So that episode will be out soon. Um, but yeah, that's, I think that's a great resource for

those of you who are, might be struggling. Definitely check out the podcast. Hopefully it will be encouraging and enlightening in one way or another. It really is. I actually just binged a couple of your episodes on some of my hikes and it's great. So definitely go check out her podcast. It's really, really helpful, especially if you're struggling with anything that we talked about today. So yeah, cool. Thanks so much for coming on girl. Thank you so much. Thanks for listening to today's episode of the Real Foodology Podcast. If you liked this episode, please leave a review in your podcast app to let me know. This is a resident media production produced by Drake Peterson and edited by Chris McCone.

The theme song is called Heaven by the amazing singer Georgie, spelled with a J. Love you guys so much. See you next week. Thank you.