Realfoodology - Creating Food Addicts + The Sugar Epidemic | Dr. Nicole Avena

Episode Date: March 5, 2024

EP. 188: Ever checked a nutrition label and been surprised to find sugar? Dr. Nicole Avena breaks down the hidden sugar epidemic affecting our health, explaining the addiction similar to drugs and how to fight sugar cravings. We reveal the truth about 'healthy' foods loaded with sugars and share tips for smarter grocery shopping, like choosing whole fruits. We also debate artificial vs. natural sweeteners and their impact.  It's not just a warning but a call to healthier living, showing how cutting sugar can boost your health and happiness. Topics Discussed: 05:13 - Being mindful about sugar 07:44 - At what point is processed food in America no longer food? 10:44 - Dr. Nicole Avena’s background 12:43 - Hyper processed food have an affect on our brain 16:20 - Sugar addiction 22:03 - Sugar consumption in children 26:38 - Sugar in fruit 33:25 - Fiber in smoothies 35:07 - Negative advice in the fitness industry 36:44 - Health implications due to overconsumption of sugar 41:44 - Tips for managing cravings and avoiding unnecessary sugar 47:31 - Decluttering sugar 50:33 - Sweetener alternatives 55:36 - Reducing sugar is the answer 57:08 - Dr. Nicole’s health nonnegotiables  Check Out Dr. Nicole Avena: Instagram Website Sugar Less Sponsored By: Cured Nutrition Use code REALFOODOLOGY at www.curednutrition.com/realfoodology for 20% off Organifi Use REALFOODOLOGY for 20% off at  www.organifi.com/realfoodology  Paleovalley Go to paleovalley.com/realfoodology for 20% off NaturalCycles Use code REALFOODOLOGY for a free thermometer and 15% off at naturalcycles.com  ARMRA Get 15% off your first order at tryarmra.com/realfoodology Check Out Courtney: @realfoodology www.realfoodology.com My Immune Supplement by 2x4 Air Dr Air Purifier AquaTru Water Filter EWG Tap Water Database Produced By: Drake Peterson Edited By: Mike Frey

On today's episode of The Real Foodology Podcast... There can be just as much sugar in a yogurt as there can be in some of these cereals. So I think that it's really important for people to understand where the sugar is coming from and the sources of it so that they can work to then chip away and reduce it. Hello friends, welcome back to another episode of The Real Foodology Podcast. Today's guest is Dr. Nicole Avena. She's a research neuroscientist and also a pioneer in the field of food addiction.

So we specifically dive into sugar, how much sugar is in our food, how we are all seemingly addicted to sugar. We talk about the research that is coming out about how sugar is super addictive. Also, where are we finding sugar in everyday products? We talk about where you can find sugar and how much sugar we are actually consuming as a society, what that looks like as far as our health and what is actually happening from a health standpoint with all this sugar that we're eating.

We also dive into how to manage cravings and how to really be more mindful of your sugar consumption. We also talk a little bit about artificial sweeteners. This was a really informative episode. It was super helpful for me. And Dr. Nicole is an amazing guest, and I really hope you guys enjoy the episode. So with that, let's get into the episode. And if you could just take a minute to rate and review the podcast, it not only means a lot to me, but it really helps this show grow. So I just really appreciate any time that you can spend doing that. Also, if you are enjoying these episodes, if you want to post them on Instagram and tag me at Real Foodology, I always try to get back to all of you guys and I just appreciate the

support so much. So with that, let's get into the episode. Do you struggle with anxiety like I do? I have been pretty open about my journey and my struggles with anxiety throughout the years. And therapy is one of the things that has really helped me out a lot. EMDR therapy specifically has helped me through a lot of my traumas that I went through. But another thing that has really helped me throughout the years with my anxiety journey, if you will, is CBD. I really like Cured Nutrition's CBD. I love that you can go to their website and you can actually see their third-party testing that they do from their lab. So you can actually go to the website, see how much CBD is in all of their products, and they update it all the time. You can hear more about this in depth in my episode that I had with the founder of Cured Nutrition. And my favorite ones, I would say, I really like the

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quality CBD. My boyfriend just got a golden retriever puppy more recently, and we have been giving the dog treats to both of our dogs when we go for road trips. And it's been really helpful. And the dogs love them. They taste really great. So if you want to try any of the products that I talked about today or anything on the Cured Nutrition website, make sure that you go to curednutrition.com slash realfoodology. That's C-U-R-E-D nutrition.com slash realfoodology. And you can also use code realfoodology and it's going to

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Organifi. They create these delicious superfood blends that mix easily with water. They make it so easy for me to get more adaptogens in my day like ashwagandha, reishi, mushroom, rhodiola, and so much more. If you're looking for an easy way to support your amazing body, I highly recommend trying Organifi. To try Organifi today and save 20%, go to Organifi.com slash RealFoodology and use code RealFoodology. Again, that's Organifi.com. It's O-R-G-A-N-I-F-I.com and use code RealFoodology. Hi, Nicole. How are you? Hi, Courtney. I'm great. How are you? Good. I'm really excited about this episode. I'm very passionate about this subject, and I've done a couple episodes on it already, but I feel like it's just, it's a good conversation for people to hear.

Oh, yeah. I feel like it's an evergreen conversation, too. Like, the problem doesn't seem to be going away in terms of sugar and, you know, how it affects our health. So that's great that you're keen on it. Yeah. I mean, honestly, it's only getting worse, I think. And I'm just finding sugar in literally everything now.

It's crazy. Yeah. I find it almost to the point now where I'm getting angry about it because I feel like if I want to eat something with sugar on it, I want it to be my choice, right? I want to be intentional about it. If I choose to have a piece of cake or, you know, a piece of whatever. And I feel like it's hidden in so many of our foods these days that it's almost like we're getting that like choice taken away from us as to whether or not we eat it. I know. This is so good. Let's just dive into

this right now. I totally agree with you. I tell my audience all the time that you want to be intentional and be really careful and mindful of where your sugar is. Because for me personally, like you were just saying, I would rather have my sugar in a cookie or like a piece of cake or like something that I'm actually enjoying and not go through my whole sugar allotment or whatever you want to call it for the day in like salad dressings and soups. Like what? I hate it. It makes me so mad. Yeah. It's really, I think, upsetting for so many reasons. And I think, you know, that's the problem is that we can go throughout our day and make what look to be healthy choices. You know, you go to a restaurant

and you're like, okay, let me get a salad and, you know, I'll get something that's going to be good for my health. And then we end up basically pouring a whole bunch of sugar on it with a salad dressing. Or, you know, if we're getting like a dish at a restaurant, the sauces often have a ton of sugar in it. And it's basically because, you know, they want it to look pretty, right? The sauce is going to like glisten a little bit differently if it has sugar in it compared to if it doesn't. And so I feel like the sugar that's being added to our foods these days, it's really not giving us any benefit. If anything, it's just making us feel guilty. And then by the time we do then have that, you know, desire to go and splurge and have a cookie or a piece of cake.

We've already had a ton of added sugar. We didn't even enjoy it. Yeah. Well, and too, I mean, the reality of the situation is sugar makes everything taste better, right? And it's addictive. So we have all these food companies that are wanting us to spend more money on their foods and become addicted to their foods. And so when we're addicted, we spend more, we buy more. And what's interesting is I did a video the other day on bread and how our bread is really different in America compared to other countries. And there were all these comments of people saying, yeah, I visited from Australia or I was visiting from over Europe. And this comment really stuck out to me.

Someone said, your sandwich bread is more like cake bread than like bread that we're used to in our country. Yeah, it's so true. I just literally before this interview with you, I did an interview with somebody in the UK and they were commenting the same that our style of preparing bread. And it's again, because of all the added sugar, it's more like a dessert than it is, you know, something that you're supposed to create a sandwich with. And I think though, that the problem is that the U.S. can infiltrate other countries in terms of our bad habits. And so we're starting to see a lot of these things that used to only be in the U.S. kind of creeping into other countries as well in terms of, you know, bad food habits. So I wouldn't be surprised if before long,

you know, American bread found its way into the grocery stores in these other countries too. I know. Oh, it's so upsetting. Oh, it's like everything we do here slowly infiltrates out. And I just want to be like, no, look how sick our population is. Like, don't do what we're doing. It's awful. You guys have it right. It's, you know, and I think it's again, because for some reason here, if we can do it, we do it to the extremes, right? So we can process our food. And so then it became, okay, instead of like having processed food that can last on the shelf for longer. So, you know, people don't have to always be buying fresh food so it can be more convenient. Then it turned into, well, let's really process it. Let's process it to the point where it's not

even a food anymore. And I really think that's the larger question. I think the discussion about sugar addiction, I feel like that's almost like yesterday's discussion because I think that pretty much everybody agrees it's addictive. There's a ton of research on it, but I think now the discussion should be, is this stuff even food? Like we, we consider these things that we buy in the grocery store all to fall under this umbrella term of food. And people just assume that because you know, it's food, it's edible and good for you. But I mean, the grocery store sells toilet bowl cleaner and bleach and other stuff that you don't want to be consuming. So I almost feel like the processed food is bleeding into this whole new category of something that isn't really food.

Yeah. They're food-like products is what I call them. And you bring up a great point. And I want to dive into that. First of all, just as we're in the discussion, if you want to give people a little bit about your background, and I know you just wrote this book, Sugarless, which I also want to plug as well. But if you want to tell people about your background, and then I want to dive into this food like product conversation because I'm there. I'm super into that. Yeah.

So, oh, yeah, I know. I feel like we kind of just like jumped right into this. Which is my favorite. We're so excited to talk. I know. I love it. So my background. So I am a professor.

I teach at Princeton University, and I'm also on the faculty at Mount Sinai Medical School in New York City. And I essentially started doing research on whether or not sugar was an addictive substance when I was a grad student at Princeton. I had just started my PhD program there. I was getting a PhD in neuroscience, and I was talking with my advisor about what I might work on for my dissertation and what I was interested in. And so we started throwing around ideas. And at the time, this was going back a bit, but it was the year 2001. We were starting in the US to see these obesity rates going up and

people were starting to worry about it. But back then it was still thought of as, you know, oh, people are overweight or obese because they don't have the willpower. And I was thinking that, you know, it seems like there might be something more to it. We were starting to see more processed foods, more sugar. And, you know, the question kind of came up, well, could maybe a lot of these foods that have a lot of added sugar be addictive, just like drugs and alcohol can be addictive. And so we started doing research on this and studied whether or not sugar could meet the criteria for being an addictive substance. And so flash forward, we've published like over a hundred papers in scholarly journals on this. We've been working on this for many, many years now, and lots of other labs across the world are studying this as well. And so we've been able to amass this significant

amount of research that really supports this idea that sugar can meet the criteria for being addictive. And so now the question becomes, okay, what are we going to do about it? If it's addictive and it's all over, hidden in our foods everywhere we go, is that okay? And if not, then how are we going to fix this problem? You brought up a really great point that for a really long time, we were told, I still think to a certain extent, we're told in society and from mainstream media and all that, that it's your willpower, right? Like you're doing something wrong.

You need to just exercise more and eat less. And, you know, I think we're starting to talk more about now that these foods are actually having an effect on our brains. Like I've started seeing studies come out about this, that hyper-processed food has a different effect on our brain and therefore the way that we then crave foods and how we overeat it. And essentially what's happening is these foods are overriding our own biology. And thank God we're finally having these conversations because people are starting to understand like, oh, this is something that's like overtaking me. It's not like

I'm doing this to myself. If I continue to eat these foods, I'm going to become more addicted. And it's like this vicious cycle where, yeah, it's like turning on and off certain hormones, like leptin and ghrelin, it's messing with those. And so it's really messing with our satiety hormones as well. And I think that's a really important part of the conversation so that people understand because then they don't have so much guilt around it. Because I think there's a lot of guilt and like shame. And when you understand what's happening, you can also take your power back and be like, I don't want these foods and these food companies to have so much power over me anymore. Like I can make the decision to not eat these anymore and take my power back essentially. Right. I love that. And it's so true. It's really about getting control

back, getting power back. And, you know, we've published a lot of studies looking at the dopamine part of this. So dopamine is one of those neurochemicals that's linked to reward and reinforcement. And when you take a look at what sugar does to dopamine, it looks just like what happens when someone's doing morphine or having a cigarette or drinking alcohol. And so the fact that we're able to see this high in dopamine that comes, this surge in dopamine being released in response to eating these foods plays into that whole addiction spiral. And I want to go back to something that you had said a minute ago about, you know, the whole idea that we're sort of told that you could just exercise more or, you know,

you're supposed to have these foods in moderation. And I think that that's really, you know, something that the food industry is doing to, again, go back to putting the blame on us. Like, it's my fault that I, you know, am overweight because I ate all those cookies and I didn't just exercise enough to burn it off. And that's really the message that they're sending. And that's not true. I mean, it's basically, you know, when you're addicted to something and your brain is changed

as a result, you can't practice moderation in the same way that someone who's not addicted can. And anyone who's known someone or who themselves has struggled with drug or alcohol addiction can speak to this like very clearly, you know, it's a brain condition. Your brain has been changed and we can't expect to just, you know, wake up and have control all of a sudden. It takes time and it takes work to get there. Yeah, it's interesting. I've started talking about this a little bit on my page because it feels like we've created all these addicts, you know, but it's not a part of the conversation because whenever we talk about addiction, it's more about, you know, in other areas like drugs or, you know, gambling or whatever it is,

but there's no conversation around food addiction really. And I think what's happening on a large scale is we've created all these food addicts. And it's interesting because I see a lot of pushback. A lot of people write comments saying, oh, sugar's not addictive. Sugar's natural. Our bodies need sugar. Our bodies run on sugar. We create ATP from glucose. Like, yes, all of those are true, but not in the ways that we're eating it now, I believe. So what is the research actually saying about the addiction? You brought up the dopamine, but I want to dive a little bit more into this. Like, what is the research saying about the addiction to sugar specifically. Yeah. So the thing about glucose, I get this same comment all the time, right? About, oh, your body needs sugar. Your body will make its own glucose. Your body doesn't need added sugar. Glucose is a fuel that your body will make for

itself, even if you don't eat any carbohydrates. So, you know, people who do that, like super strict keto diet to maybe eat zero carbs, they're still alive because their body makes glucose for them through gluconeogenesis, right? So that's, that's the response I give when I get posed that question. I get that quite a bit, but going back to your question about the addiction piece. So the American psychiatric association has a book called the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders. And this is basically a book that practitioners use to characterize all the different mental health conditions that are out there so that everybody's on the same page with making the

diagnoses. And substance use disorder is one of those conditions. And so there's criteria that you need to meet in order to be diagnosed as having mild alcoholism, moderate, severe, or mild drug use disorder, whatever it might be. There's a spectrum on there. And so if you meet a couple of criteria, you can have the diagnosis of having a mild substance use disorder, or if you meet more, you'll have a more severe form of it. And so what we've been able to see through the research is that sugar meets all the criteria.

So, yeah. And it's interesting because these are things like, you know, withdrawal, tolerance, consuming more than you intend to, trying to cut back but being unable to, you know, having, you know, physical problems as a result of your use or having psychological or interpersonal problems as a result of your use. And I think when we look at that list, you know, most people are like, yeah, I can see where sugar does that. But it wasn't until we started doing these studies way back that, you know, there was actual data on it, like actual experiments that were done. And so I think that's what really kind of catapulted this forward in terms of getting people to listen, because people have been saying

they're addicted to sugar for years, well before I was doing research on it. You know, if you look back into, especially, I hate to say this, but like the women's magazines and the grocery store, you know, they're even in the 80s. women's magazines and the grocery store, you know, they're even in the 80s. I remember being a kid and seeing, you know, oh, beat your sugar cravings and, you know, how do you get away from sugar? And so it's something that's been around for a really long time. It's just that because we didn't really have any data to back it up per se, that I feel like it wasn't taken very seriously. But now not only do we have all those behavioral criteria, but there's lots of research studies, again, going back to the brain showing that when you overeat sugar, it releases dopamine in those reward related brain regions. It also

can impact your endogenous opioid system. So the system that is basically put in place to, you know, help us manage our own pain. Like if you step on a bumblebee outside and you sting yourself, you know, you have the ability to have your brain kind of make its own painkiller to some degree and send the message so that it doesn't hurt as bad. Well, that's how sugar works too. When people, you know, consume sugar, it's affecting the brain opioid system. So, you. So just like when people use opiate drugs, it activates those systems. The same thing happens when people use sugar. So I think that we're kind of at the point where the data is mounted so much that it's undeniable that sugar can produce these addiction-like changes and these effects, not only on our

behavior, but also in terms of how our brain responds to it. Well, and it's interesting too, I'm always confused when people fight me on this because I've found just personally, anecdotally, like it just makes common, to me, it's very common sense. Like I've seen personally in my own life that if I'm really on one and I'm having dessert every day and I'm eating more sugar than I normally would, it creates this cycle where then I'm craving it more and I'm eating it more all the time. Or like, perfect example, if I eat sugar first thing in the morning, then I am craving sugar all freaking day.

Versus if I eat a really high protein breakfast in the morning and I go lower on the sugar and carbohydrate in the morning, I'm not craving it as much during the day. Like I literally can see it in my own life. And so to me, it makes sense, you know, now we have the data to back it up. And it's like, again, I think people push back and they fight because they're addicts and they don't want to give up their addiction. Yeah, I think it's partly that, but I also think that it's partly that people are unaware of how much sugar they're eating. I've had many people that will say to me, oh, I don't, I hardly eat sugar. And then, you know, then when they actually like dig into the weeds of what they're eating and look at the labels, and I have this in my

new book, like as an exercise for people to do, because it is like eye opening when you start to really look at a lot of the foods that you're eating and realize how much added sugars in them. And even things like, you know, healthy foods, things that are marketed as being good for us, yogurts, you know, things like that, where you think, oh, wow, that's better than having like, you know, Froot Loops for breakfast. But there can be just as much sugar in a yogurt as there can be in some of these cereals. So I think that it's really important for people to understand where the sugar is coming from and the sources of it so that they can work to then chip away and reduce it.

Okay. This is actually a really great point. And I did a video on this very recently with a girlfriend of mine who has a kid because we've been talking a lot about sugar consumption for kids right now because she's really on it with her child. She's noticed personally, and again, this is not a shocker to any of us, I think, listening, but every time she eats too much sugar, her one and a half year old, she has a full blown meltdown. And so my friend is really conscious about how much sugar she has. And we did a video recently where we were showing common snacks that kids eat on a day-to-day basis. And these did a video recently where we were showing common snacks that kids eat on a day-to-day basis. And these were, you know, applesauce, yogurt, and I want to hear

more of some of the foods that you're seeing as well, but we added it up. And if a kid was to eat all that in one day, they were getting 90 grams of added sugar. And this was just snacks, by the way, which was insane. So where are, where is sugars hidden? Like, where are we seeing it that people are maybe not computing? Yeah. I mean, that is insane that it was that much, but I'm not surprised. I am absolutely not surprised because again, you know, a lot of these foods, especially the ones that are marketed towards kids are often marketed as being the healthier choice. Like, okay, granola bars is another example or anything that's in a bar typically has added sugar. You know, 80% of the items in

the grocery store have added sugar. So you have to really, it's almost like when I give presentations on this, I'll show pictures of like hunters and gatherers, like our ancestors. And I'll talk about how, you know, we used to only get sugar once in a while because you'd have to walk throughout the forest and find a berry bush. And then, you know, when it was winter, everything was dead. So you wouldn't get berries or fruit until the spring. And so sugar was really rare. And basically we're still those hunters and gatherers, but now the sugar's everywhere. And so in our minds, we think, oh my gosh, let's eat it because we want it and it's delicious. And we don't know when we're going to get it again, but we're getting it all the time.

But we are also hunters and gatherers in the sense that if you want to get food that doesn't have sugar, you have to like wander around the grocery store for like an hour and try to find, you know, those few items that don't have it. But yeah, granola bars, kid items, any yogurt that's geared towards a kid guaranteed to have added sugar. Anything with a character on it, a cartoon character, princesses, sugar. It's just really very pervasive. And I really think that, you know, it's about understanding that, you know, kids are particular. I have little kids too. So I can relate to this on a personal level. You know, they can be really particular with what they want to eat. A lot of it's texture related. A lot of it's just the sort of neophobia of like not wanting to try anything new. But it is so important to get a hold of this sugar issue with your kids from a very early age.

Because if not, you're setting them up for a lifetime of challenges and habits that are going to be much harder to break when they get older. Yeah, absolutely. Well, and we're seeing non-alcoholic fatty liver disease rise in kids. It is crazy. In the last 60 years, like when I was a kid there, I don't even think there really was incidences of non-alcoholic fatty liver disease. This is a strange phenomenon that's been happening in the last like 50, 60 years, that before we were only seeing fatty liver disease in alcoholics. And then also the incidence of type 2 diabetes in children as well. Again, when I was in school growing up, I don't think, I think maybe I knew one kid my entire childhood that had type 2 diabetes.

And now, I mean, it's so pervasive. Half of my friends' kids already are pre-diabetic. And it's just crazy what's happening right now. It's true. And just going back to the fact that, you know, we actually had to create these names of these conditions to be different names because of the fact that kids were starting to get these issues. So it used to be that type two diabetes was called adult onset diabetes, but nobody ever calls it that anymore because it's not just adults. And then same with, you know, the fat, it used to just be fatty liver

disease because we didn't need to identify it as being non-alcoholic fatty liver disease because it was only people who are alcoholics that primarily got it. So, yeah, it's so interesting when you need to start to rename things to, you know, address the fact that this younger population is now afflicted by it. I really think that that's kind of scary. It is really scary. When you look at that small time frame, our genes do not change that quickly. We've got to look at our environment and what's happening with our food. Absolutely. So from your standpoint, because I get this question asked all the time, as far as sugar goes, what is your stance on fruit? So my stance on fruit is that I am in favor of fruit with some conditions.

I think that fruit is the sugar that we're supposed to be eating. And I'm not talking about fruit juice or, you know, fruit concentrate, you know, or these little tricks that, you know, the food industry will play with fruit to make it look like it's fruit, but it's actually just the sugar and the fruit. I'm talking about like a whole piece of fruit. And I think that, you know, for people who are really struggling with eating too much added sugar, you can eat fruit and that could be a way to satisfy your sweet cravings and help to satisfy your sweet tooth. And it's also going to have fiber. It's going to have other micronutrients that are going to be beneficial

to your health. And it also has a dose of sugar that's reasonable. The amount of sugar that's in a strawberry is something that we can process, whereas it's not the same as the amount of sugar that's in a candy bar or many of these other processed food products that are out there. I do think, though, that we need to be mindful of the fact that fruit juice is not a good idea. And, you know, I also think a lot of people are really into smoothies and I think that's great, but I also think, you know, the fruit smoothies are not necessarily a great idea for a couple reasons. One, if I were to say to you, okay, Courtney, I am going to give you eight apples and I want you to sit there and eat all eight apples right now. You would probably do it. It would take you a while. You would probably be

like, I do not like Nicole and this is not fun. Okay. But if I took those eight apples and I chopped them up and pureed them and added a little bit of water in the, you know, the mint, the Ninja, you could drink that probably pretty quickly. Right. So again, I think there's a big difference in terms of the satiety process. And I think we need to keep that in mind, you know, obviously like, yeah, the smoothies are great. If you're like hate vegetables and the only way you can get them into your body is by chopping them up and throwing them into a smoothie, then that's great. But I think with fruits, we've got to keep in mind, you know, you can get them into your body is by chopping them up and throwing them into a smoothie, then that's great. But I think with fruits, we got to keep in mind,

you know, you can end up eating an awful lot of fruit more than you would ever actually consume if you had to sit there and chew it when you chop it up and put it into a smoothie. So I always recommend, you know, yeah, if you want to sweeten up your smoothie with fruit, that's super, but just make sure that it's primarily other stuff and not just, big thing of fruit. Snacks. Let's talk about snacks. Everyone loves

snacks. And I feel like it's hard to find a good snack that actually fills you up and that you really crave and like to eat. I am obsessed with the grass fed beef sticks from Paleo Valley. If you guys follow me on Instagram, you probably saw recently that I went, I literally went to this show downtown and my girlfriends were making fun of me because when I met up with them, I literally had a Paleo Valley beef stick sticking out of my pocket. My friend goes, are you packing meat in there? I was. I always have a Paleo Valley stick with me either in my purse or I always shove a bunch of them in my car and just leave them in there for emergencies, for snack emergencies. I'm always bringing them places on hikes, you name it. I always have them on me because they're such a great snack.

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The algorithm lets you know whether you're fertile or not fertile each day. A green day means you're not fertile and you're good to go. A red day means you're fertile and you need to use another form of protection or abstain. So all you have to do is first thing in the morning, take your temperature either with a thermometer or if you have a wearable like an Oura Ring or an Apple Watch, it automatically connects to your app. But you do not need a wearable, you simply just need a thermometer and to take your temperature first thing in the morning. If you would like to try Natural Cycles, go to naturalcycles.com, use code REALFOODOLOGY, and you are going to get 15% off an annual subscription plus a free thermometer. Again, that's naturalcycles.com, code REALFOODOLOGY. This is an ad, and Natural Cycles is for 18 plus and does not protect against STIs. Yeah, you brought up really great points. I always tell people to be really careful and mindful of how much fruit you put in a smoothie. Like for me, I'm putting a tiny little handful of berries in there and that's usually it. Because I noticed when I was younger, it was like I'd put

like two bananas and then like a pile of strawberries, then a pile of blueberries. And it was like, to your point exactly, I would never eat that much in a sitting. And that should tell us something right there. And there is something interesting about smoothies too. This is always debated back and forth, whether or not you actually get the fiber when it's in a smoothie, because the blender is ripping up all that fibrous component of the fruit. And so some people say you still get the fiber, but a lot of people say you don't. And I would kind of argue that you probably don't because I don't get that full from smoothies, you know, like no matter how much fruit's in there. Yeah, no, the fiber certainly it's different. I mean, if even if you are getting it, it's certainly different than if you have to chew it. But there's also quite a

bit of research on, you know, satiety mechanisms in the brain in response to liquid calories versus solid calories. And so liquid calories, we don't detect the calories in the same way in terms of satiety as we do for solid calories. And so again, you know, I think this kind of goes back to, you know, thinking again about our ancestors, right? I mean, if you think about it, what were the beverages of our hunter gatherer ancestors? Water. You know, I mean, that was basically it. That has zero calories and you don't really get full from it. There's no satiety needed for the liquids. Whereas if you're chewing food, like yes, that's usually the calorically dense things. And so now it's sort of the opposite in many cases where you can have a very calorically dense beverage, but our brain isn't necessarily built

to automatically get full from the liquid calorie component. Yeah, that's a really great point. You know, when we were talking a second ago about people and their addictions and like candy versus fruit, I was thinking about there's this trend online right now that I don't know if you've seen this, but it's in the fitness community, which there's so much, there's so much horrible nutrition advice that comes out

of the fitness in this like area. And they're eating these like candy. Have you seen this? It's like, what do you call them? Cause I haven't, I haven't eaten them since like high school, but they're like sugary candy, like strips, basically like gummy strips almost. And they're eaten before they work out. And saying that it's a good pre-workout. And is that supposed to, it's just like a sugar kick then, right? Because aren't they coated with sugar? Yeah. Yeah. And I was tagged recently in a video that a girl did where she was speaking out against it. And it went kind of viral because all the comments were all these fitness people being like, oh, it's so much better for me. What were the comments? Someone was like, it's so much better

for me to eat this candy versus having like a bunch of like fruit and food in my stomach than to go work out. And I was like, what are you, what? So you're going to eat candy before you go work out. And they were all defending it. I actually left a comment in there and I go, wow, the addicts are really coming out strong in this. Yeah. Yeah. It's yeah. I mean, I, I think that's why we need to be so careful these days. I mean, it's so great that we have all this information sharing, but you know, a lot of it is just not really sage advice. And so I just think that people really need to, you know, dig in when they look at stuff and hear stuff and really kind of step back and think, wow think that people really need to you know dig in when they look at stuff and hear stuff and and really kind of step back and think wow do I really want to eat candy but to me that's sort of like negate I'd rather have a piece of candy after I work out right yeah crazy

well I don't know yeah so I just was wondering if you'd seen that so from a an actual health standpoint what are we seeing as far as the health implications of this over consumption of sugar Just was wondering if you'd seen that. So from an actual health standpoint, what are we seeing as far as the health implications of this overconsumption of sugar? Oh gosh, we're seeing so much. So, I mean, it started off really with obesity and diabetes. Like those were the two big public health concerns that people were talking about that were linked to sugar. But now there are so many studies linking sugar to

cardiovascular disease, to the development of certain types of cancers. And it's beyond just the physical health part. It's also the mental health part now too. And so we're learning that. And I mean, you know, people know this just from their own experience. If you're eating healthy, you feel healthy mentally. Your mood is more even. You don't have those swings up and down. And I've seen this happen time and time again with people who are able to really get control of their sugar intake and bring it down, who used to think that they had anxiety disorder or that they had, you know, maybe like low level depression. But once they really started to change their diet, they just felt so much better. And they didn't really realize that it was the food that was messing with their brain and making them,

you know, feel emotionally dysregulated. So I really think it's gotten to the point where sugar can have a negative impact on pretty much every aspect of our health. I'm not aware of anything that it's immune from the damaging effects of sugar. Yeah. Yeah. The mental health aspect is really a big one because on a large scale, I listen to a lot of podcasts, a lot of health-minded ones, and on a pretty big, large scale right now, as a society, we're really noticing that people mentally are not doing super well. And we're really starting to talk about that. And what is so frustrating for me is that a lot of times, and these health podcasts

are talking about it, but like from a mainstream mindset or mind point, they're not talking about this at all, the diet effect at all. And it's so frustrating for me because it's so glaringly obvious. Like when we're unhealthy as a population, when we have, I think it's at like 92% of our population right now is metabolically unhealthy. And we're not talking about the food at all. Of course, it's going to affect our mood, you know? And you think about just from a blood sugar regulation standpoint, if you're going up

and down all day with your blood sugar and you're on this like rollercoaster ride where you're, you know, eating and then you're high from the sugar and then you're crashing and then you're craving more and you're getting exhausted and fatigued, it's like you're all over the place. Of course, you're mentally going to be all over the place, you know? And it's so frustrating that we're not talking about this from a mental health standpoint at all right now. Yeah, I don't know why it was just automatically presumed from like the dawn of time that if you have a mental health issue that you need a medication for it. And obviously, yes, there are cases where people obviously do, but I mean, it doesn't seem

to be like the first line of, you know, treatment or even just an idea to discuss that. Okay. Well, if you're, if your mood's not doing great, well, let's, let's see about like your diet. Let's see about what are your stressors all about? Like, well, how's your sleep? It's not common medical practice to look at that from a holistic standpoint. It's really only like functional medicine doctors that will even ask those questions. And so I think that, you know, the average person out there who's, you know, struggling with all of it, it's, you know, what to eat and, you know, having health problems and then not feeling great emotionally or mentally. It all kind of comes together.

And you're so right that why aren't we talking about the things that we can immediately control, like our food and what we're eating, and just see what that does and see how that might help. It certainly can't hurt. I've never heard of anybody that got off a junk food and processed food and then suddenly like their life fell apart and they've been like miserable and unhealthy. I mean, it can only go in one direction, which is up. And so that's why I really hope that more and more people start to talk about this as, you know, something that you can do as an adjuvant to, you know, treating mental health conditions with other things.

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, obviously there's always going to be really extreme cases, right? Where people really need an extreme intervention, but the science does back up that really simple interventions like getting sunlight, moving your body, getting good sleep, prioritizing eating and eating whole real foods. These actually have real science-backed benefits to your health, you know? And so it is really frustrating when those aren't the first line of defense because oftentimes if we implement those, a lot of the other things start to, you know, come down and adjust themselves. So coming from the standpoint of sugar being so addictive and it's in everything, how can people

navigate this? What are some of your tips? And also, how can they manage cravings? If they're really coming down from being addicted to sugar, how can they help that? Yeah. So I think in terms of navigating this, one of the things that I think is unique about my book and what I'm recommending with this is a lot of times when people hear that something's addictive, they just automatically jump to the fact that you have to abstain completely from it. And 100% cold turkey, cut it out. And I don't really think that that works for sugar because for the reasons we've been talking about, right, it's hidden in so many foods. I also think that, you know, this whole like all or nothing approach is what's wrong with our diet culture.

And it basically sets you up to fail because nobody's ever going to be 100 percent on it at all times. And so then when you fail, you put the guilt and the blame back on yourself. And it really just sort of points the finger back at the individual, not at the food, which is who we should be pointing the finger at. And so I really advocate more of like a stepwise approach where you take small steps that are manageable, reasonable, realistic, that you can sustain, you know, and really just kind of slowly chip away at it. If I told you, okay, you know, we're going to figure out how to like revamp your morning, like coffee routine to not have as much added sugar in it. You might say, okay, we could try that. That sounds like I could handle that. But if I said to somebody, okay, we're going to completely cut out every ounce of sugar from your diet tonight, then that's scary. And people aren't really going to probably

be able to stick with that. So the approach that I take is really more of a harm reduction approach of, you know, it's not a great idea to consume all this added sugar. So the less, the better. And I think that helps people to then be able to make sustainable, realistic changes that aren't going to necessarily cause them to feel like miserable and they're like, you know, giving all this stuff up and that they're depriving themselves because that's not going to be conducive to getting people to stick with it. The cravings though, that's a good one. I'm glad you brought that up because that's, I think, such a difficult thing for people when it comes to food in part because it's one of the things that makes food and drugs and alcohol even very different in terms of the addiction.

You know, thank goodness there aren't billboards advertising heroin needles and, you know, ads popping up with, you know, images of people like, you know, doing drugs and alcohol when you're looking at stuff. I mean, can you imagine like all that layered on top of trying to avoid the substance would just make it almost impossible to avoid it. But that's what's happening with sugar. You can't go anywhere without seeing an ad or, you know, and it's not even traditional ads from the food industry. We have influencers now that are, you know, promoting products via, you know, content and it's really unavoidable.

And all those advertisements that stimulates, you know, content and it's really unavoidable. And all those advertisements that stimulates, you know, our dopamine system, it primes us to then want to eat it and to crave it. So I think it's important to be aware of that and to know that, you know, if you're sensitive to that content or if you're sensitive to these ads, like you got to avoid them or you got to, you know, at least distance yourself from them because it can be a trigger for a lot of people. And really it can be, I think, lately the biggest source or the biggest provoker of these cravings. You guys know I'm always on the lookout for ways to strengthen my immunity, especially more than ever right now as we're going into fall and winter. And on top of that, I've been traveling a ton.

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your entire gut wall system, replenishing your microbiome, repairing the gut wall architecture, and blocking irritants that can trigger symptoms like bloating, constipation, and IBS. It also enhances nutrient absorption, stabilizes blood sugar levels, and accelerates fat burning for a revved up metabolism. Pretty crazy, right? And as I said before, it can reactivate hair growth and help growing skin. It reduces inflammation, especially like puffiness in your face and neck, stimulates stem cells to produce collagen and

increase elasticity for plumper skin. Now, the cool thing is we have worked out a special offer for you guys, my audience. Receive 15% off your first order. Go to tryarmra.com slash realfoodology or enter realfoodology to get 15% off your first order. That's T-R-Y-A-R-M-R-A.com slash realfoodology. I mean, I can give my story with it. So I consider myself like a recovering sugar addict. When I was a kid, I was a sugar monster. And well into my 20s, I remember in college that there was not a day that went by that I did not have a vitamin water, which horrifies me because I look back on that and they have more sugar than a can of Coke. They had 50 grams of sugar. And I was having a vitamin water and I had to have a bag of candy every day. I would have gummy worms or Reese's Pieces or

peanut butter M&Ms, whatever it was, like I remember every day around like 3 p.m. I'd be like, oh, I need that sugar. And when I started really paying attention to sugar and realizing, wow, this is actually really bad for my health, that was really hard for me to cut out. But what I started doing as like a bridging of the gap, I started just buying healthier candies that had like a little bit less sugar. And that was kind of how I like bridged that gap. And then I started making my own stuff at home. I was like, okay, I'm going to make cookies at home and I'm going to use way less sugar. If a recipe asks for like a cup of sugar, I'm going to do half a cup of sugar.

And it was just kind of this like working down. And then what really helped me a lot too was noticing the things like what we talked about in the very beginning, cutting out all this stuff that had sugar that I did not need, like buying unsweetened ketchup. I was buying, or I still am, buying unsweetened, you know, non-dairy milks, unsweetened yogurts, unsweetened peanut butter. It's like anywhere that I could take the sugar out, salad dressings, the places where you literally will not notice it anyways. Like if you have a good salad dressing that doesn't have sugar, you're not going to be like, oh, I wish this had sugar, you know? So cutting those things out and then slowly over time was realizing like, oh wow, I'm really getting like a minimal amount of sugar

now. And then just now that I'm in this place of consistency, just like maintaining it where I'm just very conscious of how much sugar I have in a day. consistency, just like maintaining it where I'm just very conscious of how much sugar I have in a day. And if I really want like a cookie or something like that, I'm going to have it, but I'm just going to be conscious of where I'm getting my sugar in other areas. Yeah. I love that. Those are all such great tips. And I often refer to it as the sugar clutter, right? It's very popular right now to declutter. Everyone's like decluttering their houses and live in minimalist, right? And I think you have to declutter the sugar from the things like the condiments and the cereals and the places where you don't, you don't even want it. You're not using it. It's not giving you joy or, you know, you're not even noticing it half the time.

And then just focus on, you know, those key statement pieces, right? Where, okay, I really like that brownie, so I'm going to enjoy it and have it. Then you're mindful about it and then you're aware of it and it's not on the background of all this cluttered sugar that you've had in your life in the background. Yeah, that's really helpful. I'm curious if there's other things that you talk about in the book or just anything in general about this conversation that you think is really important for people to hear. Well, one thing that we didn't talk about, which I think a lot of times people have questions about, is these alternative sweeteners. Oh, yes. Yeah. Let's talk about that.

And I think this is an important discussion because it's evolving, right? And so it used to be that when these artificial sweeteners kind of came around, people thought this was going to be like our savior because you could have your sweet and no calories and that's great. And that's going to be the solution. And, you know, I remember being a kid and Diet Coke getting popular and, you know, my mom and all her friends were just like drinking Diet Coke all the time and it was like a thing and they thought that that was going to help them stay trim but you

know now we know that that's not the case and that actually if you're overweight drinking diet sodas actually makes you consume more calories at the end of the day but now it's getting a little more complicated because we have all these other sweeteners like monk fruit, stevia, all of these newer sweeteners that are coming on the market. And I'm curious as to your take on them, but my take is in a nutshell that they can be useful as a bridge, right? They can help people to get off of your having a ton of added sugar. And it's just so psychologically overwhelming to talk about giving it up. If you were to replace it with one of these other sweeteners, and that's going to help you to get going, then I think that's great.

But I don't think that should be the end point. I think at the end of the day, we need to reduce our reliance on sweeteners in general, regardless of where they're from. And I also worry about what's happening with our food industry because, you know, since there's this kind of push to like lower sugar in products because of consumer demand, I'm noticing a lot of products that will have added sugar, but a little less of it, but then they'll have four or five different sugar alcohols or other sweeteners in there. And so at the end of the day, it's probably sweeter than it was before it just had sugar in it. Those products are interesting to me. So I have a unique position where I have a bunch of friends

that have food companies and I've had conversations with them about this. And the issue that people that are trying to create healthier foods are coming up against right now is that as a whole, our society is used to things being so freaking sweet. Right. That if they try to put something on the market that's not as sweet, people don't buy it because people are just like, this doesn't taste good. I don't like it. And so we have this fundamental issue right now where we've been talking about this most of the episode is that people are so addicted to sugar and they're so used to having a certain amount of sugar in all their foods

that when they try something that has less sugar in it, they're like, oh, this is disgusting. I don't like it. Now, what's funny about that is that alternatively, me and one of my girlfriends talk about this all the time. I can't eat half of that stuff because it tastes so sweet to me that it's like, it's this is like a lot. So we are in this really interesting time right now. And I'm curious to see what's going to happen in the next like 10 years or so as people are becoming more and more aware and they're really trying to work on their palates and scaling it back. Because it really is just like working on your palate and realizing that like the things that you're

consuming are so sweet that once you start scaling it back, you can't do it anymore. Now, my standpoint as far as on artificial sweeteners go, I've always avoided things like Ace K, Splenda. There was a recent study that just came out showing that Splenda is a genotoxin, meaning it's damaging our DNA. And also, yeah, so all those kind of sweeteners, aspartame has a concerning history as far as like cancer and stuff goes. So I avoid all of those. If I see something that's sweetened with pure stevia or with pure monk fruit, I like them. And what you said, I think is a great tool as far as like bridging the gap. And that's what I used when I was really trying

to get off sugar is I was making a lot of cookies and treats and stuff with monk fruit to make sure that I was like getting less sugar, but I was still like kind of feeding into that craving. But where you do kind of get into an issue is that over time, our bodies, I think the sweeteners in general, if you're not getting calories and sugar, the studies show that it actually messes with our mechanisms as far as when you start eating and your body prepares to get sugar and then it doesn't actually get the sugar, it messes with those mechanisms in the body. So I do think over time it is kind of concerning.

And I think it's better for all of us just to scale back in general and do a little monk fruit and stevia here and there, but then also like have a little bit of maple syrup and coconut sugar and just make sure that you're not overdoing it. That's kind of my thought about it. No, I like that.

And, you know, I think though, most people are kind of hoping though that one of us is going to say, oh yeah, just use coconut sugar instead and that's fine. But I think the message has to really boil down to, it's about reducing. And that's really, I think the only way we're going to find ourselves getting out of this and improving health in the long term is to just cut back on it. And you know what? I am here to say that it gets so easy. Once you're really in that routine and you're not eating it all the time, even now, like if I find myself slipping, like if I'm like having a week where it's just, you know, it's right before my period and I'm kind of going hard on the chocolate and whatever it is, I like hit a point now where I'm like, oh, I can't like,

I physically can't even keep eating it because it makes me feel so sick. So once you really scale back and you're more conscious of how much sugar you're consuming, even if you have a day or two where you're like going hard in it, or at least for me, like I have this like set point now where I can't really go over it. So there is hope and light at the end of the tunnel. You just have to get through that initial like, you know, real hard time with the sugar cravings. Yeah, absolutely. I feel like we kind of got through everything we wanted to talk about. This has been such a great conversation. I feel like I could have talked to you for like two days. I mean, there's just so many things about this that,

you know, we could get into, but I feel like we really hit all the main points in terms of the things that I think can help people get going with, you know, thinking about their sugar and how they can cut back and just the benefits that it can have. Yeah, I absolutely agree. So before we go, I want to ask you a personal question that I ask all my guests. Okay. What are your health non-negotiables? So these are things that no matter how crazy busy your day gets, like you do these as a non-negotiable to take care of your own health? Oh, wow. That's a really good question. So the first is I walk my dog who may be on camera. He was like sitting in the back. We go for a walk every morning and it's rain or shine or sleet or

hail. That's number one. And it's just a great way. We do it before everybody else in the house gets up. And so it's kind of like a great way to just sort of like both of us go out in nature and we have a fairly big piece of property. So we kind of walk around and I just love that. That's just sort of like charges me up and then we can start the day. That's number one. And then number two, I don't go every day, but I have a gym that I go to three days a week where I meet friends who are actually just people that I got to become super good friends with just from working out with them. And so that's my non-negotiable in the sense that now I have this like social accountability to go to the gym

because they're expecting me to be there. And it's just such a great time. And it's beyond just working out now. So I would say those are my like two big ones that I don't ever want to give up. I love that. I have a similar one with walking my dog as well, because it's a bonding experience. We get out in nature, we get sunlight, we move our bodies. And yeah, I love that. Well, please let everyone know where they can find you and where they can find your book. Yeah. So you can find my new book, Sugarless. It's available wherever books are sold. You can find it also on Amazon or Barnes and Noble. You also can learn more about me if you go to my website, drnicolavena.com. And I am on social media at drnicolavena.

Amazing. Thank you so much, Dr. Avena. This was an amazing conversation. I really liked it. Thanks so much. Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of The Real Foodology Podcast. If you liked the episode, please leave a review in your podcast app to let me know. This is a Resonant Media production produced by Drake Peterson and edited by Mike Fry.

The theme song is called Heaven by the amazing singer Georgie. Georgie is spelled with a J. For more amazing podcasts produced by my team, go to resonantmediagroup.com. I love you guys so much. See you next week. The content of this show is for educational and informational purposes only. It is not a substitute for individual medical and mental health advice and doesn't constitute a provider patient relationship. I am a nutritionist, but I am not your nutritionist. As always, talk to your doctor or your health team first.