Realfoodology - Farmed Seafood, Sustainable Aquaculture + Mercury Levels In Fish | James Arthur Smith

Episode Date: November 29, 2023

EP. 173: Check Out My new FREE Grocery Guide! In this insightful episode, we delve into the intricacies of sustainable aquaculture and overfishing with our guest, James Arthur, co-founder of Seatopia. We tackle issues of bioaccumulation and toxicity in farmed fish, and the health effects. We highlight sustainable fish farming methods, the importance of sustainable seafood, and the need for marine life protection. Join us as we explore nutrition, sustainability, and ocean conservation. Topics Discussed: 02:11 Conversation About Sustainable Farming and Seatopia 06:54 Conversation on Farmed Seafood 13:52 Utilizing Alternative Methods for Healthy Fish 22:59 Mercury Levels in Ocean and Farming 34:27 Sustainable Farming and Appropriate Species Diet 38:42 The Importance of Sustainable Aquaculture 43:36 Sustainable Aquaculture and Farming Practices 48:38 Bioaccumulation and Toxicity 01:00:01 Education, Sustainable Farming, and Seafood Awareness 01:11:30 Finding Seatopia Check Out James Arthur Smith: Online Instagram @seatopia  https://seatopia.fish/ Sponsored By: Organifi www.organifi.com/realfoodology Code REALFOODOLOGY gets you 20% Off Wildway Code REALFOODOLOGY will give you 20% off your first order https://wildwayoflife.com LMNT Get 8 FREE packs with any order at drinkLMNT.com/realfoodology ARMRA Colostrum tryarmra.com/realfoodology enter REALFOODOLOGY to get 15% off your first order Seed's DS-01® Daily Synbiotic seed.com/realfoodology Use code REALFOODOLOGY for 30% off your first month's supply of Seed's DS-01® Daily Synbiotic Check Out Courtney: Check Out My new FREE Grocery Guide! @realfoodology www.realfoodology.com My Immune Supplement by 2x4 Air Dr Air Purifier AquaTru Water Filter EWG Tap Water Database Produced By: Drake Peterson Edited & Mixed By: Mike Frey

On today's episode of The Real Foodology Podcast. To give reference on the issue of bioaccumulation and toxicity and how it works, if you're just eating sardines and anchovies, probably not accumulating a lot. But the way that some of these chemicals move up the food chain, getting stuck in the fat tissues or the muscles, when you get further up the food chain, whether it's a tuna or a swordfish, or give you an example of a shark or a whale, when whales wash up on beaches, the levels of mercury are so high that it is considered a biohazard. Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of The Real Foodology Podcast. I'm your host, Courtney Swan, and I'm really excited about today's episode. I sat down with a co-founder

of a company called Seatopia. I reached out to Seatopia because I was so excited about what they're doing. I have been telling my audience for the last 10 years or so to avoid farmed fish, and for very good reason. We dive into all the complications and all the issues that we see with conventionally farmed fish. It's very similar to factory farming meat. The antibiotics, the hormones, the awful living conditions, not fed species appropriate diets. We go more into it in detail. But when I found this company, Seatopia, I was very excited about what they're doing because they are a company that

connects their members directly to artisan aquaculture farms that raise fish from non-GMO eggs, nurtured in low density, antibiotic free conditions, fed microalgae based oils and innovative protein alternatives for fish meal, like fly soldier larva and mycelium protein. It's so amazing because they do all the grunt work for us. They go and they find these amazing farmers around the world that are doing right by our health. As we know that traditional conventionally farmed fish is not good for us. And I still stand by that. However, there are farmers that are doing it right and creating really good healthy fish. And what's amazing about this is that it's a win-win because it's also really good

for our environment and helping with a big issue that we're dealing with right now, which is over fishing our oceans. It was such a pleasure to connect with James Arthur and hear him speak about this. He is so passionate about it, as you guys will hear in the episode. And it's really filled with a lot of hope because I didn't even know that farmers were doing this. So it's really exciting, and I'm very excited for you guys to hear this episode. Oh, and please don't forget to check out the show notes for a link if you guys want to try Seatopia today. As always, I hope you guys enjoyed the episode, and if you are loving the podcast, you want to take a moment to rate and review it. It means so much to me, and it's really helpful to the show.

And of course, please tag me at realfoodology on Instagram. I see all of your posts. It really means a lot to me. Thank you so much for your support. I wish that I could hug and personally thank every single one of you guys because it really does mean a lot to me and just know that I see you and I'm so grateful. I have been a longtime supporter and lover of Organifi and I'm so excited to announce that they are rolling out a special product line just for kids. They're committed to delivering the same level of quality nutrition and a yummy experience even picky kiddos will love. To kick off this line, they're going to be launching a Kids Greens called Easy Greens as well as an immunity product called Protect.

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and vanilla bean espresso. Personally, my favorites are the coconut cashew, the banana nut, and the dark chocolate sea salt. Oh my God, they're so good. Honestly, I'm probably about to go have a bowl right now because now I'm craving it. If you guys want to check out Wildway, please go to wildwayoflife.com and use code realfoodology. That's W-I-L-D-W-A-Y-O-F-L-I-F-E.com and use code realfoodology and you're going to get 20% off. Thank you so much, James, for coming on today. I'm really excited to have this conversation with you. In our emailing back and forth, I really loved what you wrote me and just saying like, you know, I appreciate your, I think you said like humility and open-mindedness and willingness to reconsider

the narrative around farmed seafood. And that's actually why I wanted to bring you on because when I first started diving into farming of seafood, I was horrified by the different practices. One most notably that really stuck with me was that the farmed fish that I was horrified by the different practices. One most notably that really stuck with me was that the farmed fish that I was seeing, at least like the farming practices that were being used, the fish were so sick that their skin was gray. So they were feeding them dyes to dye them pink so that they looked healthy.

And we'll dive into all of this, but that's why I wanted to bring you on because I know the biggest question that I get from people when I talk about farmed fish and I talk about all the devastating health effects, people say, well, what about the fact that we are overfishing our seas? And what about the microplastics? And, you know, both sides, there's a lot of concern. So I really want to dive into all that with you.

And I'm so excited to have you on today. I'm so happy to be here. It's so much to discuss. Some of the things that you brought up already, I want to dive in and address each one of those subjects because it is really important to get more detailed information about these subjects. But the bigger picture, yeah, we have to change our relationship with the ocean. We can't simply continue to extract more seafood.

There isn't more seafood. The gross production of the gross capture plateaued in 2002. And since then, there's not been like a new well of oil to mine in the ocean. We're not going to find more seafood by going further offshore. We're already using the technology that was developed for maritime warfare to find and capture fish. What we need to do is apply the same sort of thinking that we've applied to growing food in other areas and do it well. And I think the confusion is that there's a difference between factory farm chicken and beef, which serves a purpose, but is not necessarily the goal isn't to produce the healthiest, cleanest food. And that is a lot of what's happening in aquaculture, especially some of the first farms that really commercialized were owned and operated by the exact same conglomerates that own and operate large industrial scale cattle and chicken farms. They're using the same methodologies,

but that doesn't represent the entire category. And my comment to you was that, yes, we need to be more mindful and apply deeper consideration to how food is raised. But to dismiss all farm seafood doesn't actually help cultivate and foster better farming practices because there are fantastic farms out there that are endeavoring to be part of the solution on the blue planet. And really, because of the principles of aquaculture, not utilizing irritable land, not using fresh water, the feed conversion ratio, the fact that fish float, they have swim bladders, so they don't have to expend energy just to stand. They are very efficient and is potentially one of the most efficient forms of food production on the planet. Not surprisingly, it's the blue planet and everything evolved from the ocean.

It's just how do we cultivate fish for a segment of people who care about the nutritional value? And that is something that isn't really talked about when you're looking at commodity production and commodity supply chains. But it definitely exists. The nuance here is what's really, really important. And I think too, maybe when I first learned about all this, this was the only way that fish was being farmed. And then I think people like myself and other people who are passionate about this caught on to what was happening in this industry and are now creating solutions to that. So let's dive into why are farmed seafood practices not all created equal? So what's happening in, let's say it's basically like factory farmed fish versus what Seatopia is doing. Okay. So I'm just going to try to address

some of the points that you brought up. You brought up a point about fish being unhealthy and needing dyes. And generally that is a talking point that stems from Norwegian salmon farms that are utilizing different colors and whatnot to make the fish a bright orange, a salmon color. I think it's first important to note that all salmon, wild or farm, their skin color varies entirely dependent on what they're consuming. In fact, there are multiple rivers around the world that are renowned for having white salmon. There's ivory salmon. There's the silver salmon. There's a white salmon river. It's something that in the artisan fishing world,

some of these fish are highly prized. So if salmon are in an area where there's not a lot of shrimp and crabs and other feed elements that have astaxanthin in their diet, natural red algae being consumed by other organisms that are then turning red and then affecting the red color of the salmon, then the salmon are going to be white. The white salmon river salmon generally were eating other fish and squid as opposed to eating things that were bright red. So it really is dependent on what they're eating. And in a farmed environment, you can choose what to feed them. So astaxanthine is a red algae that causes a lot of things in

the food chain to be red, like flamingos. And in salmon, it generally has to do with the red crabs or the shrimp that they're consuming. And when you feed astaxanthine, it's actually a supplement that I take as an individual. A lot of you feed astaxanthine, it's actually a supplement that I take as an individual. A lot of people take astaxanthine. It is really good for us. It's an antioxidant. And it's also really good for a lot of organisms. And including real astaxanthine, marine derived astaxanthine in the feed of salmon is the best example of providing a well-rounded healthy diet that also imparts color in salmon. There's other ways to do it.

There are people that are utilizing low quality ingredients like commodity GMO soy and corn and red dye in order to affect the color. And they're selling those to markets that aren't asking deeper questions. But I absolutely can point you to farms that are utilizing marine derived astaxanthine and blue-green algae for omega-3s and soldier fly larvae. And this is an example of good feed components that are focused on creating healthy fish that don't need antibiotics or hormones. And yeah, so the difference is just like,

what is the objective? Is the objective to sell it to people who don't ask deeper questions, or is it to sell it to people who are looking for the absolute best food? So seafood, once upon a time, was so integrated into our DNA that it just works for a lot of people. Myself, personally, when I'm eating clean, healthy seafood, it just feels so bioavailable. The omega-3s and the proteins just digest and I feel light and strong and vibrant.

Other people, they need some red meat and that's fine. But it just so happens that for me, fish works great. And when I'm eating really healthy fish with healthy feed, it's the superfood that I want. And I'm endeavoring with Seatopia to connect individuals looking for superfoods from specific farms that are optimizing for omega-3 levels, omega-6, omega-3 ratios, just clean proteins and certified clean. We provide a certificate of analysis on every product that quantifies to the parts really in the presence of heavy metals and other toxins. And that data allows us to not only verify what the farms are saying goes in it and hold them accountable, but also provide consumers

with the knowledge that, hey, if I want to eat clean seafood, I can actually just like with my whey protein or my collagen, I can, or coffee, anything. If you want to choose something that has a certificate of analysis and eat that level of cleanliness, you can. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, you brought up a couple of other great points and I just want to give people like a full picture of why I am generally concerned of farmed fish. And if you're not careful of the sourcing, you brought up, you know, a lot of these fish are getting antibiotics and hormones because they're, you know, it's very similar, can be very similarly compared to factory farming, you know, given antibiotics. Yeah. Like given antibiotics and hormones because they're, you know, they're all crammed in a smaller space generally, you know, not always. And so, you know, the tight quarters, they're getting sick.

And then on top of that, the feed that they're often getting are from what I've read is like genetically modified corn pellets and like just random stuff that they shouldn't be eating anyways. It's not a species. Yes. Like not a species appropriate diet. Yeah, for sure. It really stems from feed, I think. Yes, environmental concerns are a thing. If you have too many living creatures in a tight space, it can create unhealthy environment. But if you start with clean feed, they're going to have a more robust immune system. And that is, I think, the key thing is the foundation of clean feed doesn't necessitate the preventative antibiotics. If a feed has a bunch of ingredients that are not, let's say, highly digestible according to the organism's diet and life cycle, and it causes inflammation, and it's then more

susceptible to immune compromises, that's where disease then spreads through an entire population. But if you give them the healthy feed that is in accordance with their natural diet, that's also sustainable and scalable feed source, then you're actually building a healthy population. And I think that's the main differentiation. There's to credit to the intentions though so aquaculture wasn't created with the intention of creating crap food you know it was created because it's super clear the writing's on the wall we can't find more wild-caught seafood if everybody in the world only wanted to eat wild-caught salmon

we would deplete the entire population in less than a season it's just not feasible so how do we eat a food like salmon that is so fantastic and protect the wild salmon so that in the future there is still this beautiful treasure right like i appreciate recreational fishing at some like spearfishing it's something that I want my children to be able to experience. But if we continue putting pressure not just on extraction, but also the pollution that we've been doing, there's a finite end. There's a lot of very doom and gloom outlooks on the future of the oceans and wild seafood and biodiversity if we don't change things dramatically. And aquaculture is intended to be a solution to mitigate pressure on the wild stock. That said, we have to do it right. And

some of the first farms, what they did was they took native species, captured them small, fattened them up, and then harvested them. And then figured out how to spawn them and raise them from eggs and tried to fatten them up on just ground-up baitfish. And ground-up baitfish seems like a great thing. But if you're now producing more fish, because in the wild, a salmon might spawn hundreds of thousands or millions of eggs, fingerlings, and a small percentage of those are going to make it to maturity. But in a hatchery, you could potentially have a survival rate that has 90% of those surviving. And now you have a huge influx of the population and you're still extracting feed, forage fish, sardines, anchovies, anchovetas, and grinding them up and trying to feed them. You're now feeding a much larger population from an already under over-pressured bait or source of fish that is not a sustainable or scalable

solution to feed the world without degrading an entire base level of the food chain that the forage fish so about 15 years ago or even less actually about about 10 years ago, people started talking about changing the feed of aquaculture from forage fish to alternative sources of protein. And there was even a big push from the UN and the FAO for aquaculture, which is acknowledged as a solution to provide a better feedstock. And they found a way to put less pressure on the ocean, but they did it in the form of commodity soy and corn. And there's an abundance of that. So large industrial scale farms were able to lower their feed costs significantly by just feeding them soy and corn.

But when they did that, they saw increased inflammation in the stomachs and increased likelihood of disease and outbreaks. And so with these weaker fish, they had to give them preventative antibiotics and hormones, and that started a whole other thing. Now we're kind of in phase three or 3.0 of fish feed where marine biologists are saying, well, clearly we need to have the right ratio of omega-3s, not just omega-6s from the soy and corn. And the original source of omega-3s that fish get is not... Fish don't produce omega-3s. A lot of people think that omega-3s come from fish.

They're actually coming from algae. And so the base layer of that trophic food chain is these micro-algies that are producing omega-3s that are then being consumed by smaller organisms, and then they bioaccumulate into those salmon and other species. Feeding the algae oils directly to the salmon is getting them a lower trophic level, direct access to those omega-3s that they're looking for, and bypassing the bioaccumulation of any other toxins that were in those anchovies or anchovetas. Because unfortunately, there's also a lot of mercury in the ocean today. Mercury levels have increased over 300% in the ocean since the industrial revolution. And that is accumulating in fish

because of coal fire plants and industrial runoff from agriculture. The levels of mercury in small fish are accumulating to the point where tuna and swordfish are not recommended to be eaten on a regular basis. If you ask any nutritionist or the FDA, the recommendations to avoid large tuna and swordfish, especially if you're a woman or a breastfeeding mother, you should not even consume it. But if you are eating those salmon that are fed with the low trophic diet directly at the algae level, they're not getting that bioaccumulation of all those sardines and anchovies and coming up. They're literally getting a hundredth of the exposure of those mercury levels. And we're able to quantify that with the certificate of analysis. So it's really interesting to see what happens in a controlled environment

where you can control the inputs for an expected outcome and really cultivate for better outcomes. Some farmers that work... There's a great story of Dan Barber challenging his local farmers to farm for taste, not for just size or color. Farm to get the best taste. And the same sort of thing is now happening in Outgold where it's like, how do we farm for the best nutritional value, the most superfood, the right balance of the omega-3s, the most healthy fish possible is something that is... It would have been nice

if we started in this direction, but it took a while for the evolution of the farming practices to get to this point. I'm officially declaring it hot chocolate season. I cannot believe it, you guys, but the time is here. It is time to get drinking our hot chocolate again. My personal favorite hot chocolate is Element Chocolate Salt. Hear me out because I feel like every time I introduce this to people, they're like, ew, what? Why would you drink chocolate salt electrolytes? I'm telling you guys, do not sleep on this. It is so freaking good. It basically tastes, I mean, it does. It tastes like a salty, sweet, hot chocolate when you add hot water to it. Now they every year come out with limited edition chocolate salt flavors. The

chocolate salt is always on the menu. They have that all year round, but during this time, they introduce different varieties of it and they're bringing back the chocolate medley for a limited time. So there's 10 chocolate mint in there and then they have two new chocolate flavors. The chocolate mint has been around for a while, but they're also introducing chocolate raspberry and chocolate chai. I just tried the chocolate chai the other night. It is so good. Just imagine a salty, but sweet, but also sugar-free hot chocolate. And then imagine if you added chai to it. I'm going to try the raspberry tonight. I'm so excited. I have a friend who just taste tested it and said that it was unreal. Gave it a 10 out

of 10. So I'm going to go with 10 out of 10 for the chocolate raspberry. So excited. If you guys want to get the element chocolate medley, it's available for a very limited time. And if you use my link, you're going to get also a free gift with purchase. So make sure you go to drinkelement.com slash Courtney Swan. That is drinklmnt.com slash Courtney Swan. Not all probiotics are created equal. I cannot stress this enough. You cannot just go to the grocery store or Whole Foods and buy any probiotic off the shelf. It is so incredibly important that you are getting a good high quality probiotic. The reason not all probiotics are created equal is because a lot of these probiotics or the good gut bacteria that need to populate our gut never actually make it

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beyond the gut, and proprietary engineered two-in-one capsule that I was just talking about that protects probiotics through digestion to ensure delivery to the colon. It's really cool. If you actually take the green cap and you open it in your hand, you will see another capsule pops out with some of the supplement in there as well. And this is what I was just talking about. I actually did this on my stories the other day. It's really cool. If you take the green capsule and you pop it open in your hand, another capsule will pop out of it. It's really cool. So when I say that there are systemic benefits beyond the gut, what does that mean? It's including gastrointestinal or GI function, skin health, heart health, gut immune function,

gut barrier integrity, and micronutrient synthesis of vitamins B9 and B12. Gut immune function is not boosting the immune system. It is about supporting the crosstalk between your intestinal cells and your immune cells. Many people see improvements in digestion within 24 to 48 hours, which can include bowel movement, regularity, and eased bloating. If you want to start a new healthy habit today, visit seed.com slash realfoodology and use code realfoodology to redeem 30% off your first month of Seeds DS01 Daily Symbiotic. That's seed.com slash realfoodology and use code realfoodology. Yeah. I mean, it's a sad reality that we have to get to a place where, you know, the fish are getting so sick that we're like, oh man, we got to turn the ship around and do it another way. You know, I mean, but what you just mentioned

is an incredible upside of farmed fish. I know another thing that's a really big concern is I'm seeing now that there are reports that we're eating a credit card sized amount of microplastics every, I think it's a week now. And a lot of that is coming from our oceans because they're finding microplastics in the fish. Not to mention the mercury levels that you brought up, heavy metals, pesticides, like all this stuff that's getting dumped into our oceans, we're getting exposed to. And this is a great way. Yes. Oh my gosh. Yeah, the PUFAs are really bad too. Or sorry, the PFASs. It's PFASs.

But yeah, so these are all really big concerns. So how in farm fish environments, how are they not getting exposed to it? I know you said it's in the feed, but also where are they exactly located? How are they not being exposed to this water? Yeah. but also where where are they exactly located how are they not being exposed to this water yeah well it's we work with farms all around the world some of the farms are not even in the ocean we work with some farms that are on land land-based farms that have zero exposure to uh the the concerns of

let's say microplastics that are in the ocean, you still have to be conscientious of what's in their feed, right? So is the feed using any sort of ground up fish meal or is it using the soldier flies and the algae? But even with the fish meal and fish oil, modern centrifuge technologies are able to filter out things that are naturally occurring in those fish. So if you look at some of the studies of heavy metals in farmed fish versus wild caught fish

that were done in the 2000s, there was a lot higher levels of heavy metals in farm fish because they were grinding up the wild caught fish and getting that concentrated exposure. The industry took note of that and developed centrifuge filtering technologies to actually filter out the toxins and the heavy metals from the oils. And that results in a much cleaner feed. And so the most recent studies that have come out of Norway, not on all commodity stuff, but on the stuff that's utilizing the best in class feeds and oils are showing significantly

lower levels of heavy metals and toxins in the farm fish than their counterparts in the wild. So it really depends on not only the feed, but also the environment and what you're comparing it to. So if we look at, for example, a fish that is in Hawaii, for example, there's a... Let's just use an example here. I'm in Costa Rica right now, visiting a farm here in Costa Rica. It's super clean, beautiful water here,

but you still have exposure to runoff from rivers and you still have exposure to the Pacific gyre, so plastics that are in the ocean. But are those fish foraging and consuming other organisms or are they eating a controlled feed? And if they're eating a controlled feed, then the exposure is going to be significantly lower. So in the case of these fish, they're not foraging.

They're literally in these huge open ocean pens in 150 feet deep of water being fed this controlled feed. As long as the feed itself is clean, they're not being exposed to a bioaccumulation of microplastics or whatever's in the water. So that's the main differentiation is, is it filter feeding in the ocean or eating through the food chain in the ocean or is it being fed? So if you look at oysters, for example, farmed oysters are filter feeding in the environment. And that is where you have to be very conscientious of what is in that environment because they

are filter feeding, they're literally cleaning what is in the ocean. In fact, oysters and mussels have been proposed to be used in bioremediation of environmental environmental toxic toxins like radiation. So there's been proposals to use shellfish in the Fukushima area to help filter the radiation. And then I don't know exactly what they would do with those oysters or mussels. Hopefully they don't feed those, but they are going to be pulling that out of the environment. So it really comes down to what is the environment. And so we're working with farms that are either in hyper clean areas, like up inside of the Sea of Cortez, not exposed to industrial runoff, not exposed to the Pacific gyre inside of fjords. And then everything is being fed a diet that goes

through this sort of GSO 1000 production cycle to ensure that there's no parasites, there's no heavy metals, and that results in just a cleaner input and a cleaner output. That's amazing. So I'm curious just from a species appropriate diet standpoint, why not in these farms also just, I don't know how else to say it, like grow their own like sardines and these smaller forager fish in these environments for them to feed off of?

Yeah, no, that's a fantastic question. It's something that is being worked on in a lot of pilot projects. The growing algae seems to be a more efficient way to do it as opposed to growing an entire fish, but there are some people that have been looking at that. I think it's really an economic thing. It seems more efficient just to grow the proteins in the form of mycelium or soldier fly larva or there's even some yeast proteins that are being grown.

And then on the other side of the oils, just growing the algaes. But another interesting thing that is happening in aquaculture is introduction of what industrial scale farms would call complexity, but a farmer might call biodynamic principles. So in aquaculture, we call it integrated multi-trophic aquaculture, which is essentially the pairing of symbiotic organisms. So one of the complaints that people have about fish farms is that the fish poop is creating a toxic environment in the benthic seafloor. So just like a cattle farm, if the cattle are all just standing in one place, all their

poop is going to create this toxic environment. But when a cow is roaming in the pastures, it's actually distributing that manure in a very healthy way that can actually revitalize environments. The same thing happens in the ocean. In nature, there's no such thing as waste. Everything has a symbiotic partner. So one of the challenges here is that fish poop. And here's another challenge. Seaweed and mussels can't grow in the open ocean because when you go way offshore, there's not enough nutrients in the water. So you have fish farms that create all this extra nutrients. And then you have shellfish and kelp that need nutrients well you pair them together and you create this really beautiful synergy the fish poop becomes feed

in large form and small dissolved form for shellfish and kelp and the kelp and shellfish are cleaning the environment and that sort of synergy or or multi-trophic integration is one example another example is cleaner fish in the wild sea lice are a thing it's not like sea lice were invented by fish farms or only happen in fish farms sea lice are organisms that are in the wild swimming around attaching themselves to other fish and then trying to eat them. Well, cleaner fish are fish that have developed symbiotic relationships with organisms like salmon and sharks and all these other fish.

And they are communicating with these larger fish, they come up to them and the cleaner fish will remove those sea lice. So introducing things like lump suckers or wrasse into a salmon farm creates the opportunity for these two organisms to cohabitate. And the salmon will literally come up to the lump suckers and the lump suckers will clean and eat those off of them. So there's all these beautiful evolutions in our understanding of how to work with nature and replicate what nature did as opposed to try to control nature

like a monoculture crop that has no insects, right? The control and monolithic approach to farming is what gives aquaculture a bad name in the same way that control and monoculture of corn or cattle is what gives that sort of agricultural crops a bad name. But it's not like all farming is bad. Yeah. Okay. This is so fascinating. And it just reminds me once again, that, you know, whenever I talk about regenerative farming on this podcast, I'm always reminded that, you know, as humans, we can be, we can be so naive and so inflated to think that we know what's best and that we need to control this environment and we don't need insects and we don't need this bacteria and this little bugs or whatever, Completely negating the fact that you just said so beautifully that nature works in this symbiotic cycle together.

And these tiny little things that we don't even understand why they're in the ocean and what they're doing. We're starting to slowly understand that they have a purpose. And it's so freaking cool. And it's such a good reminder. And it's, it's also, it's refreshing to hear that the aquaculture is not only noticing this, but also working on figuring out how to find that symbiosis in these controlled environments, because that's my biggest, that's my biggest beef with it, you know, and why I've been such a proponent for wild caught fish is because there are all these things working in nature, essentially invisible to us that we don't even know why they're there, but they actually serve a great purpose. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. No, I'm a big fan of

wild. It's just that I don't believe that we need more pressure on wild capture fisheries. 100%. We need to develop a new relationship with the ocean and it's not like more wild capture we don't need more people saying i want only want wild capture my belief my belief is that in order for our children to have a chance to enjoy recreational fishing or even seeing these organisms we have to develop scalable, sustainable, regenerative relationships with the ocean. And it exists right now. Have you seen the film, The Biggest Little Farm?

Yes. I cried so hard in that movie. It's a wonderful film. The highs and lows of their experience are so emblematic of the humility that it takes to learn and trust and persevere. And the same thing is happening with aquaculture. It's just that, you know, aquaculture is not actually that evolved in a historical sense of, you know, we've been in, let's call it commercial scale farming on land for hundreds of years longer. Literally the first salmon farms were developed in the 70s.

Wow. Yeah, so it's not that far along. This is a very new thing. So there have been farms that have existed for years, but it was more like ranching. So like ranching of farming in Hawaii goes back many, many centuries and in China, even further back. But commercial scale operating of hatcheries and breeding fish and raising them from eggs and cultivating not just some of these highly resilient fish that can go in and out of freshwater to brackish water and saltwater. Some of those really hardy fish are kind of easy, but pelagic fish that have to live in hyper clean, super beautiful water to create an environment where these sort of fish can actually be raised and

cultivated requires a lot more finesse and technology at least initially in order to create those clean environments but the the examples of regenerative Farms that I'm seeing today are so exciting in the vein of that biggest little farm. There are farmers today who are truly passionate about developing regenerative relationships with the ocean that are voting every day for better relationships as opposed to more scale. The option to just use low quality feed and sell to big buyers and send it to Costco and to China, there's a huge market for that. But there's a much smaller market. What we're trying to cultivate and foster is people demanding the sort of multi-trophic integration, the best examples of recirculating aquaculture systems using

the best feeds. Guys who are not just raising Branzino, but also on the same farm taking some of their highly valuable water, land concession and saying, okay, we're going to use a third of it for fish, a third for shellfish and a third for seaweed. And I'll tell you what, they're not getting nearly the same return on investment cash-wise on utilizing two-thirds of their entire concession for shellfish and seaweed. We have to develop brand value and support the farms that are making those investments, those sacrifices to create better farming practices. Because instead of doing 100% fish by utilizing two-thirds the entire concession for shellfish

and seaweed, they're creating an environment that increases biodiversity in the ocean because those shellfish farms and those oyster farms and the seaweed farms create habitat for a myriad of other species. And they're sequestering carbon out of the ocean, offsetting ocean acidification, and cleaning the water so that in many cases, these sort of multi-tribal farms have cleaner water on the downstream than on the upstream side. So literally the current that was entering the farm is dirtier than the current exiting the farm.

And those examples of regenerative aquaculture need to be celebrated because they're farming at higher operational complexity. I do believe that in the long term that they will see and reap those rewards, but it's sort of externalized at the moment, right? Until we start placing value on those brands and really celebrating those farms and those farmers and those biggest little farm stories in aquaculture, it's going to be hard to convince more farmers to make that bet, those sort of farms, especially if we're just saying all farm seafood is bad and only choose wild caught.

When the reality is there's so much nuance in the same way that we need to ask who is the farmer that's growing our beef or our chicken or our tomatoes and what are their farming practices? Are they using no-till? Are they using fertilizers? Are they practicing? What are they doing? Who are they? Where are they? When was it harvested?

Those questions that we ask at the farmer's market, we should be asking of our fish farms as well. And if you are going to choose wild-caught, ask the same questions too. Where? When? how? Because I'll tell you what, there's a lot of problems with wild caught seafood that people aren't really talking about. And a lot of it has to do with the pollution that we've continued to put in the ocean. And then the sustainability is another issue. The biggest issue is the microplastics,

the mercury, heavy metals, forever chemicals. DDT is another one. I mean, we dumped lots of DDT in the ocean. I mean, I spent a lot of time in Los Angeles, in Santa Monica Bay, and there's these wonderful fish that you can catch in the deep water environment where you just drop a hook down with some bait on it and you pull it up and these cute little red little rockfish are on there. And there's a lot of them, but they're swimming in these deep canyons where the government just disposed of millions of gallons of DDT in the 1980s and 1970s. And it's down there leaking and they don't have a good way to clean it up. Heavy metals are accumulating in these channels. If you're catching things like, let's say, flatfish like halibut or flounder or sand dabs in an environment just downstream from a river right after it rains, the first rain

of the season or an environment where you have a lot of toxins, that sounds kind of gross to me. Parasites is another issue. Parasites are super common, especially things like wild salmon are almost never consumed raw because of the parasites that are in there. Swordfish are notorious for having huge parasites in there. Yeah, parasites, heavy metals, plastics, DDT, the forever chemicals like from fire retardants that are just, they're there, they're bioaccumulating. To give reference on the issue of bioaccumulation and toxicity and how it works. If you're just eating sardines and anchovies, probably not accumulating a lot. But the way that some of these chemicals move up the food chain, getting stuck in the fat tissues or the muscles, when you get further up the food chain,

whether it's a tuna or a swordfish, or give you an example of a shark or a whale, the accumulation levels are so high that when whales wash up on beaches, they are considered a biohazard. Not just like, oh no, stay away, there's a stinky whale the levels of mercury are so high that it is considered a biohazard and that is unfortunately a stark and horrific example of what we've done through pollution that we are literally created toxic bombs in our majestic top of the food chain predators like like our sperm whales and and humpback whales and the largest mammal to ever roam this planet the blue whale and when these beautiful majestic creatures die it's the they're they're toxic because of all of the chemicals that we've that we've discarded into the ocean that have

bioaccumulated through what they've been consuming. Is it just me or is colostrum just totally taking the internet by storm? I mean, I'm so happy about it. And it's so interesting how certain things will just become a massive trend. I've been taking colostrum for probably at least 10 years now or so. My mom got me on it. It's an ancient practice used for immune function. It really helps to strengthen and bolster the immune system. And I will say Armra colostrum has really taken the internet by storm. And for good reason, it is a really good high quality colostrum. I get so many DMs from you guys just specifically asking me if I use Armour Colostrum. And yes, I do. I've been taking Armour specifically for almost a year now.

I travel with it everywhere I go. I bring the little individual packets with me and I especially take it while I'm traveling because that's when we are most susceptible to getting sick. And you know what's really cool? There's actually a study that's been done comparing the effects of the flu vaccine and colostrum and colostrum performed better in protecting the body from the flu. Isn't that wild? And this is a peer reviewed study posted in a very well-renowned medical journal. So what is colostrum? It is the first nutrition we receive in life and contains all the essential nutrients

we need in order to thrive. Armra is a proprietary concentrate of bovine colostrum that harnesses these 200 plus living bioactive compounds to rebuild your immune barriers and fuel cellular health for a host of research-backed benefits. Armour colostrum strengthens immunity. It ignites metabolism. It fortifies gut health. It helps activate hair growth and skin radiance. And I actually have seen all my little, I have all these baby hairs that have been growing since I started taking it. And it helps to power fitness performance and recovery. And what's cool is we have worked out a special offer for you, my audience, my listeners who I absolutely adore. You're going to get 15% off your first order. So go to tryarmra.com slash realfoodology. That is T-R-Y-A-R-M-R-A.com slash realfoodology or simply enter code realfoodology and you're going to get 15% off. Again, that's tryarmra.com slash realfoodology. Armra is A-R-M-R-A.

I mean, it's so devastating. Yeah, it's really devastating. And this actually gives me a lot of hope because for a while there, I was stuck in this conundrum, if you will, of not really sure what to encourage people to eat because reading about the microplastics and everything we were just talking about in wild caught fish, but then knowing what I knew about how farmed fish, fish was grown, for lack of a better word,

I was like, where are we gonna eat our good healthy fish? Because we know fish is really good for us, but it's like, okay, do we do the mercury or do we do the dyes and the antibiotics and all that? It's really tough. So I'm really, I'm so happy to hear that there's other places doing this. So you mentioned that there's some farms that you know.

So let's say people listening, first and foremost, where do we find these farms? I know. So let's say people listening, first and foremost, where do we find these farms? I know Seatopia is a great resource. So how do people find this better farmed fish? Well, if you go on the Seatopia website under sourcing page, we have a list of all the farms that we work with. And when you order Seatopia, you can scan the QR code on every single product and it'll tell you exactly which farm it came from. It'll show you videos of that farm. It'll tell you about the feed that they utilize. The level of detail and transparency is complete. So that's one way to do it. But I'll just celebrate a couple of the farms that we work with, for example. In upstate New York, there's two land-based farms that we're working with, one growing

coho salmon called Local Coho. There's another farm in upstate New York called Hudson Valley Fisheries growing steelhead. Both of those land-based farms here in the United States, raising fish on clean feed, producing a really great quality product. We also work with farms as far away as New Zealand. In New Zealand, there are some of the best king salmon farms in the world. So king salmon, there's multiple species of salmon. King salmon, Chinook salmon is by salmon, there's multiple species of salmon. King salmon,

Chinook salmon is by far the most revered species of salmon. It's oftentimes the largest and the highest fat content. If you are familiar with eating salmon that tasted dry, it's not king salmon. It's something else like chum salmon or pink salmon, some of these low fat content salmon. Very, very, very different eating experience and very different cost structure as well. Just because it's Alaskan salmon doesn't mean it's king salmon. The New Zealand king salmon farms are some of the best salmon farms in the world raising fish with great standards in deep water, open ocean pens. There's some farms also in land-based farms growing fish in the glacier fjords. So there's some great farms there.

We work with some farms in Norway. We work with some farms in Peru. We work with an amazing scallop farm in Peru raising scallops in these hanging lantern baskets that are literally sequestering carbon from the ocean to create this calcification of every single shell and filtering water in a super clean environment. Yeah, that's a great example of a really cool regenerative farm. We work with some shrimp farms that are in South Vietnam in a region that previously had been deforested for industrial scale shrimp farms. And now there's this NGO that is partnering with these smallholder farmers, often female owned small farms, that pays them a premium to reforest

the mangroves and release native black tiger shrimp into these mangroves. And they don't do anything other than let them in and then the tide fluctuates the amount of water that's in there. And when the water comes in at high tide, they stop it. And then when they need to harvest, they let them out. And they're harvesting these basically quasi-wild because they're not even feeding them. They're just letting these native black tiger shrimp roam in these reforested mangroves. And these mangrove reforestation black tiger shrimp are just incredible. They're

so delicious and it is so cool to be supporting this sort of reforestation effort. What other farms we work with? We're working with some farms here in Costa Rica and in Panama where we're headed next. Yeah, all around the world, our goal was to not necessarily just work with the most local farms but to find the very best farms in the world and really celebrate those stories. Because we're at this critical evolution in aquaculture. The beef industry was at this base maybe 15 years ago, where people didn't know about regenerative practices or grass-fed, they really just wanted USDA prime. And that was all they knew. And little by little, people started learning about grass-fed and fed and pasture raised and regenerative practices

and started asking for specific farms by name. If you know the name of Snake River Farms or any farmer that you've become familiar with that is implementing regenerative practices and you're paying for those practices and that brand, you're supporting a change that is very different from corn-fed USDA farming practices. And the same thing as what we're doing with Seatopia is educating people to look for specific farms that are implementing certain farming practices. And those farming practices are things like recirculating aquaculture systems or RAS or multi-trophic integrated aquaculture and algae fed fish. And those practices are what is changing the entire supply chain and was changing demand and is helping create a better relationship with the ocean.

I mean, this is incredible. And I'm so grateful for companies like Seatopia that are finding these farms and allowing the consumer to be able to put their money where it counts, you know? Because this is, like you were saying, it's so important that we put our money into these farmers or, you know, fisheries, whatever you want to call them,

that are doing right by our health. Because the more we put our money into that, the more we encourage this to continue on. And, you know, hopefully we'll see more of these practices continue to happen, you know, because as we demand better, we get better, you know, with our food. Yeah, it's really, really amazing. We are voting every single day with our dollars, right? So whether you're using an electric car or a gas guzzler or three meals a day, what are you eating? What is your clothes made out of? All of these things make a difference. Food though is so important because it's seven days a week, three

times a day, consumable good that has ripple effects all around the world. And the farms that I named, like some of these farms, you can go and buy from some of these farms directly. Like if you're in upstate New York, you can go to the farmer's market and buy from Hudson Valley Fishery. You could buy from Seatopia as well. And we have these variety boxes and you get different fish from different farms every month.

But the goal here is to foster education and demand for better farming practices. That's incredible. Well, is there anything else that we didn't cover that you think is important for people to know? I think it's fun to also know that for every single order that we do at CW, we're also planting kelp

and not just kelp that's being harvested for food or biofuels or whatever, literally just planting kelp, and not just kelp that's being harvested for food or biofuels or whatever, literally just planting kelp to help reforest our natural kelp forests, our kelp beds, which are critical nurseries for myriad species. I think that's really important to know that there are these sort of out of sight, out of mind lungs of the ocean, like kelp, like mangrove forest, that are really creating incredible amounts of oxygen for the ocean and the nurseries for myriad species that are really important to protect and for us to revitalize. And I think it's also important to think about if you are going to be eating wild-caught seafood, just think deeper about the scale of the farm or the fisheries that you're working with.

Just because it's from Alaska doesn't mean that it's truly sustainable. the British Columbia Fishing Organization, Alaska Fishers, because in Alaska, they're catching pollock during part of the year. And the bycatch of that pollock is salmon. And those are salmon that normally would go back to BC. And so BC salmon numbers are down as the Alaskan fishers are up. So there's a lot of nuance. And I guess what I'm saying, if you are interested in wild caught seafood to try to work with smaller individuals,

and there's a big difference between line caught and a single hook and line. So if you're catching, the romanticized idea of catching a fish on a hook and line is very different than industrial scale long liners, right? Long line fishing, which happens a lot where we're at right now, I've been visiting this farm and we're seeing these long line fishers go out and they literally put a line in the water that's like two miles long with baited hook every 50 feet. And those lines just sit and soak in the ocean for multiple days and if a turtle comes along and picks that up it's going to die on the hook before somebody comes along

that and pulls in that mile-long line and the same thing with sharks and swordfish and sailfish it's an indiscriminate way of catching fish and it's very difficult to discriminate and selectively catch fish on an industrial scale. It's just almost impossible. You know, persaining like giant nets that catch everything are notorious. And it's also worth noting that I think the number was like 70% of all of the microplastics in the pacific ocean came from wild-caught fisheries so the wild capture fisheries are losing their nets or their nets are breaking or discarded and that is the plastics that's in the ocean that's ending up in fish so yeah it's complicated the dumping of trash ending up in fish. So, yeah, it's complicated.

The dumping of trash and, I mean, over the years, the accumulation of masks and, like, there's just, there's so much stuff that's getting dumped in the ocean right now, which is really upsetting. So much. Grocery bags. The data is really clear on what the majority of that is. Like, if you go to the rivers and whatnot,

you see, like, in Guatemala, like all the like trash coming down the river, sure. But in the Pacific gyre, majority of it is fishing nets from wild capture fisheries, you know, from Alaska to Japan to, you know, it's all just all their nets that get lost. I think the unreported nets are hard to quantify, but the reports of the number of nets that get lost or tangled and discarded, it is baffling how much of that just ends up just adrift. And then it somewhat continues killing fish for years while it's just floating. Exactly, because they're getting stuck in it. And oh, God, it's absolutely, it's like heartbreaking when you think about it.

You mentioned kelp and I saw a documentary recently, which I'm actually having a hard time remembering which documentary it was, but they went into extensive detail, the importance of kelp in the ocean. I believe one of the things is that it kind of acts like how trees act, you know, clean the air, right? The kelp cleans the ocean essentially, right? Absolutely. Right. And we're harvesting it for food, but also a lot of other materials. So I just wanted to point that out that it's incredible that you guys are also planting more kelp because that will really help clean the ocean. It is such an incredible species. Kelp in many ways is like the lungs of the ocean, these kelp forests. In the temperate zones,

the kelp forests are not only pulling dissolved particles of nitrogen and other things out of the ocean, they're also creating oxygen, they're sequestering carbon. And there are these nurseries for all of the little fish and sharks and everything that needs somewhere safe is going to end up finding a place in these kelp forests because those are the nurseries. And we unfortunately saw a lot of kelp forests die off in a massive die off during the last El Nino as the water temperatures got warmer um either they just weren't able to tolerate the warmth or their natural predators were uh there's a a species of sea star that feeds on sea urchins. And these large sea stars just melted in the last El Nino in the Pacific Northwest.

They just disappeared. And then the sea urchins were just in abundance and just decimated kelp forests. So we had this huge loss of natural habitat and thus biodiversity and thus shoreline protection and less carbon sequestration, thus more ocean acidification. It's a vicious cycle. But the cool thing is, and why I'm still optimistic, is that the ocean is incredibly resilient. The ocean has been around a lot

longer than we have. And when we just protect it and give it space and we allow it to do what it can, the bioremediative potential, the regenerative potential of the ocean is baffling. It's incredible. Marine protected areas, when we create an area where we're not going to go in there and fish and zero extraction and it comes back tenfold so quickly, we just need to do more of that. Like marine protected areas, planting kelp, mangroves, coral, like these cities of biodiversity are just factories for really like regenerating the ocean. When we protect them and give them the, the, the chance to, to, to operate all the intricate complexities that we don't even understand all the symbiotic relationships that, that

they are cultivating. Um, yeah, the ocean can bounce back. We just need to try to mitigate pressure, give it a chance to recover. Yeah, like just learn as opposed to trying to control if we can. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's a beautiful note to end on. And it gives us hope that, and it's a good reminder, you know, that like you said, the ocean is resilient. I say this all the time about the body. It's very similar that as long as we take care of it, we nurture it, we give it the tools to do what it needs to do and what it was designed to do, it will be fine. It's resilient, but it's about taking out the things that are harming and adding back in and allowing it to do its thing, you know, adding back in the

things that help it. So. Yeah. And good rest. Yes. Yes. We all need that. Yeah. Rest and breath and good, good fuel for sure. Yeah. Well, I want to ask you a question that I ask all my guests and it's a personal one. It's, um, what are your health non-negotiables? So these are things that you either do daily, maybe weekly to prioritize your own health. Oh, I mean, there's quite a few. Probably the most unconventional is just jumping in the ocean. It's a non-negotiable. I have to jump in the ocean on a regular basis. There's some sort of reset when I go underwater in saltwater, just my system relaxes. And I also think there's something that hasn't been fully quantified yet, just breathing the oxygen that's at the sea level, like in the surf.

Because when waves are breaking and it's all those little bubbles, it's just, I feel like something about being at sea level and just the creation of that oxygen, breathing that oxygen and just submerging in the ocean. That's a huge thing for me that brings vitality to those, you know, just the feeling of being alive. Those negative ions that you get from the waves. 100%. Huge part of it. Yeah. Yeah. That's a big one for me. And obviously, sleep and drinking lots of fresh water.

And for me, I just like to be able to know that I'm eating really clean food. I try not to ever eat non-organic food, essentially. I just think of it like the quality of the fuel that's going in is really important. And jumping in the ocean for me, I don't know. That's just my thing. I love that. I actually, I live in LA and I lived on the east side for a really long time. And during COVID, I felt this really deep, like almost like soul calling to be closer to the ocean.

And I moved to Santa Monica like two years ago just simply because I felt like I needed to be in the ocean around it all the time. So I feel you on that. Yeah. It's something, there's something very healing about the ocean, especially certain areas that you go around the world. The ocean just feels like, it feels healing. Absolutely. Absolutely. And even those places like Santa Monica is nice. You know, you walk on the beach, you know, but sometimes a little cold. What is it? I don't know why, but there's this thing that says, don't go in the water. It's too cold today.

You don't want to get sandy. There's always this like little voice that says it's not worth it. And then it's totally worth it when you do it. You just have to push through and go. I know my boyfriend and I were actually walking on the ocean the other night or like along the beach and I was fully in like workout clothes and I looked at him and I was like, I want to jump in the ocean so bad right now, but I don't want to be like sopping wet walking back to the car. And I almost did it, but I didn't do it. But I was like feeling this like pull. I was

like, oh, I mean like workout clothes and a sweatshirt. Like, I don't know how this is going to work, but I should have done it. Yeah. Next time. Next time. Okay. I love it. Next time. Well, please let everyone know where they can find you if you want to be found and also

where they can find Seatopia. Just Seatopia is good. I think I am on LinkedIn. I'm not super responsive on this stuff. I have a personal social media, but don't use it too much anymore. Seatopia though, at Seatopia. We're pretty responsive on there. Our URL for the website is seatopia.fish.

And yeah, you can find us there. Or I think we have YouTube at Seatopia as well. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time. I really enjoyed this episode. It was really informative. It's cool. Absolutely. My pleasure. Thank you so much for taking the time. And like I said before, the humility to look at this when we've been told and shared these sort of soundbites that farm fish is bad and to actually come back and look at it with

open eyes. I really commend you for that. And I appreciate you taking the time. It means a lot to talk to people in your position that are willing to learn more and dive deeper. So thank you. Thank you. I really appreciate that. Well, I consider myself to always be a student, you know, because at the end of the day, I just want to know what's right, what's truthful, how we can do the best we can do. And I remind my listeners of this all the time. We do the best we can until we, you know, have better knowledge and then we do better. You know, we do better once we know better. And how are we going to do better without learning, you know? And so it's constant, especially with the nutrition and the body and how we're farming.

And I mean, we're learning as we go, you know, and we have to realize that none of this stuff is really set in stone. We're all learning as we go. Yeah, absolutely. And what works this year might not work next year. You know, our bodies continue to change. The scenarios change for sure.

Yeah. Yeah, cool. Well, thank you so much. Appreciate you. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of the Real Foodology Podcast. If you liked the episode, please leave a review in your podcast app to let me know. This is a resonant media production produced by Drake Peterson and edited by Mike Fry. The theme

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