Realfoodology - Is Your House Poisoning You? Navigating Toxic Mold, Landlords, and the Law | Kristina Baehr

Episode Date: April 28, 2026

297: I’m joined by environmental toxin attorney Kristina Baehr to unpack a topic that’s far more common - and serious - than most people realize: mold exposure and how it can impact your health, your home, and your rights as a renter or homeowner. We talk about how mold affects the brain and immune system, why it’s so often missed or dismissed, and what to actually do if you suspect your home is making you sick. Kristina also breaks down the legal side of these cases, including tenant rights, landlord responsibility, and how litigation can create real change. If you’ve ever dealt with unexplained symptoms, water damage, or just want to better understand how your environment impacts your health, this episode is a must-listen. Topics Discussed: → Mold & Its Impact on the Body → Identifying Mold in Your Home → Mold Testing & Industry Pitfalls → Tenant Rights & Legal Protections → What To Do If You Find Mold → Why Mold Is a Growing Problem → Education, Awareness & Systemic Change Sponsored By: → Ogee | Thanks to today’s sponsor, Ogee: A higher standard for beauty. Go to https://ogee.com/REALFOODOLOGY and use code REALFOODOLOGY to get 15% off certified organic makeup that performs like luxury. → Just Thrive | Get your health in check and save 20% on your first order at https://justthrivehealth.com/REALFOODOLOGY → PaleoValley | Head to paleovalley.com/realfoodology for 15% off your first purchase. → Beekeeper's Naturals | Today, Beekeeper’s Naturals is giving my listeners exclusive extended access to their Memorial Day Sale: Go to https://beekeepersnaturals.com/REALFOODOLOGY or enter code REALFOODOLOGY to get 25% off your order. Timestamps:  → 00:00 - Introduction → 02:30 - Why mold is more common (and dangerous) than people realize → 06:15 - How mold affects the brain, immune system, and overall health → 11:40 - The legal side: tenant rights and landlord responsibility → 18:00 - Feeling stuck in a lease and navigating unsafe living conditions → 24:30 - Litigation, accountability, and changing the system → 32:00 - Environmental toxins, public health, and bigger systemic issues → 40:30 - Personal mold stories and long-term health impacts → 50:00 - Misdiagnosis and why mold is often overlooked → 59:40 - Finding mold in the home: where it actually hides → 01:06:00 - The emotional impact of your home not being safe → 01:12:00 - What to do if you suspect mold (first steps) → 01:17:00 - Mold testing mistakes and how to find the right assessor → 01:23:00 - Neurological symptoms and cognitive effects of mold → 01:28:30 - Why mold is a growing issue in modern homes → 01:34:00 - Construction flaws, HVAC issues, and hidden risks → 01:36:30 - The role of education, awareness, and misinformation → 01:40:00 - Final takeaways: using the law to protect public health Show Links: →⁠ ⁠realfoodology.com⁠⁠ Check Out Kristina: → Instagram - Justwellaw Check Out Courtney:  →⁠ ⁠LEAVE US A VOICE MESSAGE⁠⁠ → ⁠ ⁠Check Out My new FREE Grocery Guide!⁠⁠ → ⁠ ⁠@realfoodology⁠⁠ →⁠ ⁠⁠PEOPLE VS THE POISON - Sign up now!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ → ⁠ ⁠www.realfoodology.com⁠⁠ → ⁠ ⁠My Immune Supplement by 2x4⁠⁠ → ⁠ ⁠Air Dr Air Purifier⁠⁠ → ⁠ ⁠AquaTru Water Filter⁠⁠ → ⁠ ⁠EWG Tap Water Database⁠⁠  Produced By: Drake Peterson

Mold grows exponentially. You want to find a mold assessor who is actually looking for mold. There is no industry standard that allows you to test while air purifiers are going. What industry would allow that? Of course not. They run an air scrubber and they tell the person, oh, no, we cleaned the air. And then they test it and it's safe. It's outrageous.

It's really dangerous. And it really affects your brain. And it affects your immune system. It affects every system because it attacks the immune system and create systemic inflammation. and that cascades in all these other ways. In Texas, a certified mold remediator must have a protocol from a certified mold assessor. The danger of that policy to all of us. I am very excited to bring our lawyer on.

And I said in my last episode, actually, that we were going to bring our mold lawyer on to talk about everything that we've been through. And also, my purpose in doing all these Instagram videos and podcast episodes is just simply to help other people navigate. this. When I first share that we found mold in our house, I don't think I've ever gotten so many DMs from people ever in my life. People want to know how we found it. What made us want to start testing for it? What do you do when you find it? What do you do with your landlords or the builder if you own the house? Like people have so many questions about all of this. And you and I have had

many conversations because we got connected through a friend that I have a unique, I'm in a unique position where I can help a lot of people navigate this. And this is the Wild Wild West out there right now. So my main mission in sharing everything about this is simply because I want to be able to provide as many resources for people's possible in order to help them navigate all this. So first of all, Christina, thank you so much for coming on today. I'm so glad to be here. Yeah. We have so much to talk about. We have so much to talk about. Also, Hector is in the sidelines and may interject a couple things here and there. I just want to point that out because he was also very greatly affected by this, obviously living in our moldy home. And you and I, just to be frank, we're talking about this before

we started recording, that I released a solo episode where I was, I'm trying to be very careful about what we're sharing right now because of the precarious nature that we are in, currently in the situation with our landlords. And we can maybe kind of go into some of this. The beauty of having my lawyer on here is you can tell me what I can and can't say. I can tell you what you can and and say, but ultimately you're here to tell a story. This is what happened to you. You're making a difference in the world by sharing what happened to you. And that's what I'm trying to do too. Something happened to my family and it changed my life and now I want to help other people. And it's this deep desire to have awareness.

I got to testify in my own trial. And I was asked, why are you bringing this case? And I looked at the jury and I said, because I want you to know. I didn't know that this could happen to you. I didn't know that your house could make you sick. And of course, it was a long, you know, six years ago now, and mold has been more in the news and there have been more celebrities and all the things. But at the time, my husband and I have five Ivy League degrees. And we had never heard the word staccubotris, which is a dangerous black mold that had engulfed our house.

we didn't even know that that could happen to you. So that's why I'm here. That's why I share my story with anyone who will listen because I want people to know that this can happen to you. And you can get better. And litigation is one way to share your story and it's one way to make a difference. But it's also litigation is not a last resort.

I understand there's this hesitancy of, you know, the law is greedy. There's this idea, especially in Texas and in conservative circles, that litigation is greedy. Trial lawyers are greedy. You see big billboards. It's a greedy thing to bring a case. No. It's a brave thing to bring a claim because the justice system is there to enforce the safety rules.

And if people aren't brave enough to bring the claims, and if lawyers aren't brave enough to litigate them, then the bad actors are going to continued the bad acts because the justice system can't do its job. So it's not, it's, I was pushing back a little bit before we went on air that litigation is not a last resort. It's not, oh, we were forced to. No, it's, it's a way to, um, to take control of your own narrative and to make a difference for the next person. Yeah. And I do want to clarify, because you're right. You brought up a really great point. as you said, you know, I shared in our last episode that we felt our hands were forced into this litigation for the monetary reasons. And just to be very frank, the conversations that my husband

and I were having the last couple months were very much, in fact, I will never forget this. This is one of the things that was like imprinted in my brain, is that my husband brought up a really great point because we were having all these conversations about how do people, how do normal people that are just living paycheck to paycheck actually get out of situations like this. And Hector, my husband, goes, what would we do if we were on Section 8? He goes, what do people do that are in Section 8 when they get into a situation like this where they find this toxic black mold in their home and they do not have any other option? Because thank God, my husband and I had friends that we could go stay with for a little bit.

We had the monetary resources to go pay for another Airbnb. We were able to get out immediately. someone commented on my video yesterday about the podcast and said, I wish I could get out of my moldy home, but I can't. And so we started having all these conversations about, you know, Hector more so than me, only because I've been going through so much that I'm like, there's only so much I can put on my plate right now.

But Hector's like, I want this to be my next mission. Like I really want to create more resources. I want to change the law around this. I want to be able to really help people and fix the laws around this because we were finding every single, step of the way that we were hitting these roadblocks. We were like, oh my gosh, how is this not more protected by the law? And how are we not more protected by the law in these situations? So it was not my intention in that last video, and I just want to clarify, was that we're not

greedy and looking for money. It was simply because in the beginning stages of going through this, we were looking at this huge Goliath of a situation where we were like, oh my gosh, my mom is battling cancer, was about to die. We knew that it was like, you know, you know, a month or two away. I'm pregnant. We were having to move again. So it was just the thought of having to get in a lawsuit. We were like, oh my gosh, do we have to do this right now?

But I think it was meant to be in this way. And I've said this many times to Hector that even though we were resistant to doing litigation in the first place, because of everything I just mentioned. And I think it was meant to be this way because I think it's meant to raise more awareness. And I think it's going to help more people. and to what Hector was saying is that hopefully maybe it will get enough attention that we can change some laws around it. I don't know. The law is already projecting you. Okay, let's go into that. So explain more. How? Well, in Texas, we have a law called the Deceptive Trade Practices Act. That means that a company, an individual, cannot engage in unconscionable conduct. If they engage in unconscionable conduct, you can bring a claim.

and you can sue them for the unconscionable conduct. And then if you win, even $1, you can get your attorney's fees for pursuing the deceptive trade practices claim. That's a wonderful law. It's meant to protect you. Now, you didn't know that you had that right. Hector's saying, we should change the law. I don't need to change the Deceptive Trade Practices Act.

I'm very happy with it. I'm going to trial on Monday. And I'm asserting the deceptive trade practices claims. And I talked to a lawyer. I don't need to mention his name, but I talked to him today. And I said, you know, he's offering me a low-ball offer. And I said, listen, at trial, I'm going to present the case. And if I get even $1 for my client, I get my attorney's fees.

And let me tell you, last time I presented my attorney's fees, the jury tipped me on the attorney's fees. Because I was there doing a good job. I asked for, I think, $330,000 or something. and the jury gave me $350,000. Wow. They tipped me on the attorney's fees. So I'm not asking for outrageous fees.

I'm just asking for my time. But the law in Texas is created in a way to protect you. We're bringing the DTPA claims and we're winning. And then, of course, if the other side says, well, injury, causation, shm-ma, you know, I'm like, causation, schmarsation. I might lose injury. I still have a claim.

We still have a claim under the Deceptive Trade Practices Act. So, you know, go pound sand. I'll see you at trial. And what's a jury going to do? So here's the issue on Monday. The landlord has a policy that it will not use the word mold. Now, think about this. There are 33 million apartments, apartment units in the United States.

Most of them are owned by institutions like investors, non-private owners, right? So those investors are incentivized to cut costs and cut corners. If we don't use the word mold, then we don't have to hire a certified mold assessor. We certainly don't have to hire a certified mold remediator because in Texas, a certified mold remediator must have a protocol from a certified mold assessor. But we can avoid all that by not using the word.

What is a jury going to do with that policy? Yeah. The danger of that policy to all of us. Imagine 33 units. Mold grows exponentially. So if we don't use the word and we don't address it and we don't remove it and we don't use certified professionals,

that's going to grow in all those units. It's going to put our kids at risk, our grandkids at risk, our college kids at risk. Right? Who's in apartments? The elderly, babies, new families. all of them at risk, because we are so concerned about our bottom line that we're not going to use the word, what's a jury going to do with that? I guarantee you I'm going to get at least one dollar

under the Deceptive Trade Practices Act. And if I get $1 under the Deceptive Trade Practices, then we get our attorney's fees and our client gets recovery. Because I, you know, whatever the amount is gets added together and then there's a contingency fee. So let's say I only, get attorney's fees. My client still gets 40% of that. Yeah. So, you know, I wish this could go live today and I could send it to the opposing counsel, but game on, dude. Game on. I'll see you, I'll see you at trial on Monday. I love it. This is why you're a lawyer and I'm not. You know, so people come to me and they're like, you know, I want to share, can I share a little bit about our conversation. You know, when we met, we were meeting as friends. So I wasn't

your attorney at the time. But you were lamenting, I can't talk about it. And this thing happened. Because the landlords are screenshoting everything that I was posting on my Instagram and then emailing it to us. You were feeling pretty defeated. Is that fair to say? Oh, 100%. Yeah. And I think in that conversation, I got. riled up because I was like, no way. No way. This is an injustice that happened. There is a remedy in the law. This is what the law is for. And this is what speech is for. Let's go out and talk about it, right? Because if we don't talk about it and if we don't bring the claims, then the bad actors are going to continue to do it. And the law is about, so the law is about two things, tort law.

And this is tort law because this is a negligence claim. Deceptive trade practices is sort of tort law. But there are two purposes. One is to compensate the victim, which is what you're talking about. But number two is to deter the bad conduct in the first place. So when courts have written about the purpose of tort law, it's about both of those things. So I get to look at the jury and say, what's it going to take? What's it going to take for them to change this policy?

policy. If you give them 100 grand, are they going to change the policy? How about a million? How about $2 million? 50 million? What is it going to take for this company to start using the word so that we can protect the people in their units? The jury has a chance. This jury is empowered to make that decision. And what a beautiful country we live in that entrust the safety to the people. You know, I'm not only conscious of what I eat, but I'm also really conscious of what I put on my body as well. And that includes skin care, body care, as well as makeup. So when I found OG, I was very excited about them. This is organic makeup that actually works like skincare. And I've been loving their crystal contour collection, their foundation, and their concealer. Honestly, I've been

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real foodology. That's just thrive health.com slash real foodology. Be the best you with Just Thrive. When we talk about the laws that we wanted to change, which maybe you can help us understand, part of what was making me feel so defeated in this situation that we were in was there were some laws in place to where we weren't legally allowed to leave our lease yet, even though we had the test showing that we had staccubotris. So this is where Hector and I were pulling her hair. out and when I met with you is when I was really feeling defeated. Because I feel like I couldn't talk about it because the landlords are screenshotting everything that I'm posting about on Instagram and sending it to me.

And then also saying that they're going to sue me for defamation, which like how. Anyways. And we felt like we were stuck in this lease where we had to legally give them seven days to remediate or do something about it. And then if they didn't, then we had to give them another seven days. And he and I are looking at the calendar going, okay, we're getting really close to, because we found it in January and then we were getting really close to February where we were being told that if we didn't pay February rent, that they could put an eviction

notice on us. And we didn't want an eviction notice on us. And so then we're looking at this house that we had moved out January 6th. They're dragging their feet on doing anything because they obviously didn't want to do anything. They were also fighting us and saying that there was no issue. And so we were really feeling like the law was not on our side because then we had to pay February rent for a place that we had not lived in since January 6th. So you always want to pay rent. You always want to pay rent because you don't want them to be able to use

the non-payment of rent against you. But you're looking at that law as not in your favor. I look at that provision as in your favor. You get to give them notice, you give them a chance to remediate it. If they don't remediate it, you get to send them a termination, that says it's not safe, you haven't remediated,

I get to get out. So, you know, they could still send you an eviction notice, by the way, even now. Bring it on. I hope they listen to this episode. Bring it on. File the eviction notice. That's retaliatory eviction.

Okay? I'll use it in our case. Great. Please do. So, you know, I did have a client who was, who is this amazing client who had cancer, and she did tell her landlord and she wanted to get it remedied, right?

So she gave notice properly. And they always paid, their mom helped with a rent because they were still in school, both of them, sisters. And the mom paid always in the first week of the month, but not necessarily the first day, had paid the first week of the month

now for probably many, many months. He never got it the first day, never cared, never commented. This time. Of course. On the second day of the month, he posted an eviction notice. That's crazy. How is that even...

And I had told her, listen, he can't evict you because you're moving out. You told him you're moving out. He's not going to evict you. He evicted them anyway. But it was a retaliatory eviction. And then I got to use that in the case against him. Because, you know, my message to landlords is,

is if you want to evict my clients because they reported mold, go for it. You're inviting a lawsuit. Why would you do that? Most of my clients like you just want to get out of their leases. Let them out of their lease. They'll go on their way. But if you fight them, you don't let them out of their lease and then heaven forbid you serve an eviction notice, game on. what is a jury going to do with that in Travis County? So I think that they're, I'm just a little bit more aggressive in that, you know, you send them the notice, you get, give them a chance to fix it, and then you send them a letter and say, I'm terminating my lease for health reasons. Now, if they, if they evict you, or if they send you to creditors, that's on them and that

all becomes part of the case. And then if we were, so if that happened. and then we were, and then we won the case, would we be able to reverse that eviction on our record? Yes, that would be a retaliatory eviction. Okay. Now I understand that. In that earlier case,

lo and behold, I fought it, right? I went to court. I said this is a retaliatory eviction. And they dropped it. They dropped the eviction. And then we sued them, you know, we had a case pending in the district court. Yeah.

So, but that's, landlords, and this is why I'm here. This is why I do what I do, because I want to change the incentives. Landlords proceed at your peril. We're going to give you a chance to do the right thing. Our tenants almost always give you a chance to do the right thing. But if they're sick, if they're pregnant, let them out of their lease.

This is not rocket science. Yeah. And since we have been bringing these claims, landlords have been letting people out of their leases. And that's, you know, for the good of everybody. Because that's what the law does. That's what these cases do. They change the incentives. And that's what the law is for. Okay. That's good. And I understand, now I understand this a little bit better. I was very nervous about some of that. I just, because, you know, admittedly, I'm the type of person. And I think there's also a, what is the word? Pregnancy brain is just,

really fun. I forget so many words. But there's this preconceived notion that suing is greedy. And we said this earlier, right? And I have that too where like, I don't want to just be suing to like make money or, you know, and Hector and I talked about this in great detail before, before, I mean, it got, it got so out of control that we felt like our hands were forced into it. Because to your point, what you were just saying, all we ever wanted was out of release. That was it. Like, we laugh about it now because we're just like how, the, the way that they escalated this to the point that it is now, in the beginning, the conversations that we were having with my dad were just like,

we just want to get out of the lease and get our security deposit back. We want to move on with our lives. My mom is sick. I'm pregnant. Like, we're not looking for anything. And now we're like, oh, to what you're saying, game on. Like, you made our lives a living hell the last couple of months.

And we fought tooth and nail desperately trying to settle with them in every step of the way. They were trying to nickel and, dime us. They didn't want to give us a security deposit back. The very first time they wrote us back, they wanted us to pay. So this is in January when we were like, please just let us out of our lease. We'll take our security deposit back and we'll just go on our way. That's it. What you just said, we gave them so many opportunities to do the right thing. And they wanted us to pay February rent and we'd already paid January rent. And then they also wanted to take our security deposit.

And we were like, what is going on here? What do you mean? We found stachibotrous, which is one of the most toxic forms of black mold in your home and you're acting like we did something wrong to you and our only what we were guilty of was moving into your moldy home how is that okay but the law protects us we don't need a new law i mean i i know that there are some people who are trying to get better laws okay fine but i'm going to i'm working the system i have and the system i have says that if they don't give you your security deposit back because you complained of a health hazard that's wrongful withholding of a security deposit. Trouble damages.

Attorney's fees. Bring it on. That's going to be part of our claim. Bring it on. Like, you know, unsolicited advice to landlords don't withhold a security deposit because someone complained of a health hazard. Bad idea.

This is not rocket science. It's true. And if you do that, someone's going to bring a claim. Yeah. They say this with doctors, too. I'm a huge, you know, proponent of wonderful doctors. I've had great doctors in my life.

There are actually studies that show that the doctors who make a mistake and say they're sorry don't get sued. So you're told never, you know, landlords might be told, and these landlords have counsel who are giving them clearly bad advice. But they're told, you know, don't say you're sorry. don't accept responsibility, whatever. But it turns out when you do that, when you take responsibility, when you have accountability, you don't get sued.

Yeah. You know, I have this huge case in Hawaii against the United States. The United States Navy had a fuel release right next to the water source in Hawaii. The water went right into the wells for people. Now, there was a way to do that right. Because accidents happen.

They should have said, stop drinking the water. There's a risk. We had this huge fuel release right next to the well. Just don't drink the water for a little while. Let's see if we can sort it out. Instead, didn't announce the fuel release to the people. And when people started smelling fuel in the water, the United States Navy held town halls around those neighborhoods

and told them, we don't know where the smell is coming. were investigating the source. As if they didn't know that thousands of gallons of fuel had gone into the water well from their own fuel release just a week before.

Oh my God. Okay? People mobilized. They were furious. Why? Not because there was fuel in the water. There's been fuel in the water before. Because the Navy lied about it.

Because they didn't disclose it. That's why. Well, it's so messed up because if you were to disclose it and say, hey, we did this, then people know. That's why it all comes back to the whole notion of informed consent that I hammer in all the time, is that when people know about something, then they know how to go around it, right? So like, if I knew that that was in my water, then I would not be drinking that water. It's so simple. And, you know, when this is not rocket science.

So if you depose, you know, I got to depose all of those officers or some of them. And you ask anyone, do you agree that the government should provide safe water? Yes. Yeah. The government must provide safe water to protect all of us from mayhem, illness, and even death. True? Yeah. Okay.

Number two. If the government contaminates the water, it must tell us right away. so that we can protect ourselves and our children for mayhem illness, cancer death. Right? Yeah. It's not rocket. You know, during, this happened on the island of Oahu in November 2021.

And while the government was providing safe water, because ultimately they had to obviously stop use of the water once people were vomiting. They literally let people get sick. So people had welts, they had burns, they were vomiting. they had acute poisoning symptoms. So after that, they were like, oh, okay, you're right. It was the Department of Health of Hawaii

that tested the water and found the elevated levels. And then the government had to admit, oh, yes, there was a fuel release. Sorry. So once they said, sorry, there was a fuel release. They had to provide these gallons of water. And they brought in, they called buffaloes of water. So some of those buffaloes got contaminated.

How? with Legionella or some bacteria. But you know what's interesting? They immediately warned the people. Well, maybe because they learned their lesson. This Buffalo had, you know, has XYZ bacteria. So, you know, stop use of that. That's what's supposed to happen, right?

Yes. But that's not what they did when they spilled, you know, tens of gallons of jet fuel into the water. Is that case still going on right now? Are you allowed to share? Still going on. And where are you out with it right now? We had a trial, and the judge issued damages to some representative clients.

That's called a Bellwether trial. We did that. That was in May of 2024. The judge took a long time to issue her order. So that was released in May of 2025. It took a whole year. In that order, she issued damages. Well, and I'm not disclosing anything that hasn't been disclosed on the docket,

but the United States has settled with plaintiffs from the area for less than the judge's lowest number that she issued in her order. So her lowest number was 37,000. The government has settled with residents for 27,000, which I find to be just outrageous. I understand why people have taken it. It's a take it so long, right? But I'm angry. I'm angry with the United States government because they are charged with doing the right thing.

And I'm angry that they have not given anybody so far a number that's within the judge's range. Yeah, that's crazy. Because the judge's range was, it was 37 to 110. Don't quote me on the exact number somewhere in there. in that range. And to my knowledge, because it would be on the public docket, the government has not paid a single person

the amount that the judge awarded. So for that reason, we have to go back to trial. So the judge has issued, has ordered us to go back to trial. We have six trials scheduled. And I'm going to be going back, and we will try these cases until the government pays the rest of our clients, because some of them accepted the offer, the rest of our clients, what they deserve and what has been ordered.

And this is what the law is for. And I worked for the United States. It was the greatest honor of my life to say Christina Bear for the United States. It never got old. You would make your, you know, you'd go to court and you'd make your announcement. So last week I got to go to court and say Christina Bear for the service members. That's awesome. And I made an argument just for our service member clients because the government is claiming

that they don't get to recover with their families because they were in the service. And they're claiming that their injuries, which was, by the way, poisoning at home and acute poisoning while they were bathing their littles, was incident to their military service. And it's an incredibly important issue. it's likely going to go up to the Ninth Circuit and maybe the Supreme Court. But I got to go in front of this judge and make the best argument I could that when you're naked in your shower and when you are washing baby bottles, you are not on military orders.

Yeah. And you should be entitled to recover with your family. And it was just, it was such an honor. Yeah. Wow. You'll have to keep me updated on that court case. And I'm sure people want to, yeah, want to pay attention to that. Oh, man. All, yeah, this is just hearing these stories, just, they make me sad. It's crazy. But also to your point, it's great that we have a law in place that can actually protect people. And hopefully the law will win on their side in this particular

case. Think about how brave they were. Thousands, thousands. of military service members and their families said, never again, this stops with us. Yeah. And when we filed the case, we thought it might get dismissed under something called the discretionary function exception. And there were a lot of ways that this case could have gone south

because there has never been that we know of a successful environmental injury case against the United States. And the government admitted negligence. And so we were, these families prevailed. So thousands of Americans stood up together, united, and they united with the people of Hawaii, which was also really beautiful. So the people of Hawaii supported these military families

because they wanted, they wanted to shut down the Red Hill facility. So that's a great example of what the law is for, because when we brought the case, we brought it all to light, and it was all public and put down, there was a movement. And the Hawaiian community, the Oahuahua water protectors and the military families marched

and petitioned and demanded the shutdown of the facility, which was something I couldn't do with the lawsuit. My lawsuit doesn't allow for a recovery of shutting down the facility. But it was part of the broader effort. Do you see? And because we brought the claim,

because we brought it to national attention, because we talked to anyone who would listen, the government shut down that fuel facility, and it can't hurt people anymore. So all I keep thinking about when you're talking about this is the rally that we have coming up April 27th of the people versus the poison is what we're calling it, which is essentially the reason why we're doing that on April 27th

is the day that the Supreme Court is taking up the Bayer-Monsanto case, and we're going to show up on the steps of the Supreme Court as Americans and say, do not agree to this. We do not agree to be poisoned. We do not agree to allow these chemical companies to have a liability shield that protects their products and the people from being able to hold them accountable for it. And I'm really hoping that something comes out of this. It'll be really interesting to see what happens. I will be there. You will. I will. I will be there. I have my three-minute slot. I'm very excited. Oh, you're speaking. I'm speaking with you.

And I'm really fired up so any listeners should come and hear. But I'm giving the legal perspective. Because, you know, the government in the Hawaii case, their argument is immunity. They're immune for claims from the service members. Yep. Well, if they're immune, then they have no incentive not to do it the next time.

Right? Yeah. The justice system is meant to change the incentives. And I think one thing that people don't know, and I didn't know until recently, is this notion of a jury trial for civil claims is actually new to our country. When the founders were coming here from England, in Great Britain, they have jury trials for criminal cases. But our founders said, no, we want the people to decide the civil claims. too. Yeah. So this, the notion of what is safe and what is not, what is reasonable and what is not, what is unconscionable and what is not, is entrusted to the people, to a jury of your peers.

So I find that what Trump did is unconstitutional. It is. It's contrary to the intent of the founders who created the jury system. Yeah. And if we grant bear immunity, who's next? And this notion that we have to grant immunity because there's some perceived national security threat is crazy. You know what's a national security threat? A sick people. Right? We cannot be mission ready if our people are sick. And that's true in the military, but it's also true for the entire country.

There are national security threats right now. We are at war in Iran. We cannot afford to have a sick population. We need to be strong for our economy. We need to be strong for our army. You know, the army is the people are our greatest asset. That's their motto of the army. If that's true, if the people are a greatest asset,

the people cannot be sick. I know. This is what I don't understand and how this is not fully gotten. It seems like Trump gets parts of it, but how is this not fully gotten to Trump's understanding? When you look at the stats, between 17 and 24, ages 17 and 24, 74% of those young males are ineligible for military service. 74% you want to talk about a national security threat.

And then you talk about the fact that we're literally in war right now. And we have less than 30% of our population that is even fit for military service. It's concerning. And it's because they're all sick. It's because we are sick as a nation, and we are doing this to our people. And then we're allowing these agrochemical companies. And, I mean, there's so many other companies that are involved, but we're allowing these corporations to care more about profit than human health.

And we need to tamper them down. Yeah, it's going to be really interesting what happens with this rally. Can I tell you about my client, Bo? Uh-huh. Bo was 18, and he got to go to court and testify to the judge. about this Hawaii case. And the judge really liked him, I could tell. But also, he said, I am here for all the teenagers.

I am here for all the kids. I represent the kids. But he developed, what is it called when your hand twitches? Oh, God, I'm not the person for this right now. My pregnancy is right now. Like tremors. He developed a tremor while he was drinking the toxic water. and he told the judge all I ever wanted

was to join the Navy like my dad. Oh. And now I'm not eligible to join the Navy like my dad. So the government, he still wanted to join the very entity that poisoned him that prevented him from serving. You know, I told the judge in closing,

this is a patriotic exercise. these service members, these families, we are here for all of us. Yeah. They are here for all of us. They believe in this country. They want to hold the country to the standards that the country has agreed to follow.

And the same is true of this poison versus people mission. Yeah. We want to hold the United States government to the same standard. that it has already agreed to be held to. We want to hold these companies just to follow the law. I mean, we're just asking that they follow the law.

And by granting them immunity, you're giving them a free pass in every respect. It's very upsetting, and I think it's unconstitutional. It's very, and it's contrary to our national security. And whether you're red, or blue or purple, you should care about this because it really matters.

To conservative principles, to liberal principles, we are not Republican or Democrat. We are human. And we need to be talking about this and what it's doing to our country. Yeah. And look, it affects all of us. The fact that it even is being put into a specific political camp, in my opinion, is ridiculous. I mean, there's only, there's one side that's propping it up more, but we should all as

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Certainly, certainly never on a mass scale like this. There might be a case here or there that I'm missing. But the reason is because, one, service members are afraid to bring claims and their families. They don't want retaliation. This conduct was so egregious

that they, you know, people, people had to bring a claim. Or, you know, similar to, This is similar to your story. They felt compelled to bring a claim because it reached the threshold that we need justice here. So that's another reason.

But there are a lot of provisions that protect the United States government. There are a lot of immunities. And thankfully, I had just been working for the United States. So when I saw that the government admitted that it was human error that caused the fuel release, human error is negligence.

And I thought, okay, I have a claim. I can come and do this and I have a claim. And I rallied to file the first complaint because I knew that I could draft a complaint in a way that would survive the immunity challenges or I hoped I could. And we did. The government didn't even assert immunity

for the entire case. They're asserting immunity for the service members. But that in itself was a win. And one reason, one reason, I think that there was that win is because our clients won the war of public opinion before they even entered the courtroom.

Because, you know, that island, they were there, they saw it, right? I mean, this was a, this was a colossal failure on behalf of the United States government. And I think by admitting, and it was really interesting to watch their legal strategy change over time.

because in the beginning their legal strategy, I think, was smart in what I would have done, which is, we're so sorry this happened. We admit that the Navy was negligent and that there is recovery here. And that first brief that they filed was really beautiful. The opening paragraph said something like that. And, you know, when I used to represent the United States, I would show up to mediation with someone in uniform who said, I'm sorry for what happened to you. Not like necessarily, I'm sorry that there was negligence or whatever,

but just I'm sorry for what happened to you. And man, if the United States had had someone show up in uniform and say, I'm sorry, but that intro paragraph was kind of in that incline. But do you know at trial, they had the audacity to take the position that people weren't actually sick. It was psychosomatic. Oh, wow. Our landlords try to do that too. They said there is not enough fuel in the water to make people sick.

That was a position that they went into trial with. So, and I, I was really upset because, especially at the time that I was going through this, I was sick myself and I was going through my own journey. And the defendants in my own case were saying that I was psychosomatic. So I was really offended that they took that position for our clients. And I called them out on social media and I, you know, I called out the name of their expert. Because if you, and I'll say it again, because I really believe it, if you hire an expert to say that a historic event didn't happen, that there wasn't enough fuel in the water to make

people sick when you know thousands of people got sick according to your own documents, what is that expert doing? How is that expert credible? So it was really interesting to see how the government experts were. Some were credible and some were not. But that one, to say there wasn't enough fuel in the water to make people sick. But here's the thing that I've learned in retrospect. What a gift. Because it's so wrong. And the judge really didn't give it credence. The judge found that every single one of the Bellwether Trot members, every one of the representative clients were sick.

So they were just taking themselves in deeper. Yeah. And over time, I've been able to have more distance in these cases. They're doing a job. And I disagree with their strategy. but that was the position that they chose to take a trial, and they lost on that issue. I wanted more damages.

I didn't get as many damages. And so that's how litigation goes. There are ups and downs and things in your favor and things that are not. And I'm working on my own nervous system to not let them put me in a box. Yeah. Well, it's really hard.

There's emotions that are high in situations like this. I mean, with our particular situation, with our landlords, I remember, you might have even said this too, but I have a very close girlfriend who's a lawyer. And early on, she said to me, she goes, I know it's hard to not take this personally, but you got to remember that a lot of this is just the strategy from their lawyer. And they may not actually be feeling this way and that this is just their strategy. And she's like, if you can hold that, maybe it won't affect you so much because it was really affecting me. In the beginning, I was, I don't think I've ever been so mad in my whole life, actually. I was full of rage with their initial reaction back.

Was like, what do you mean you're acting like, this is not a big deal? I'm pregnant. And we just found the most toxic form of black mold in our home. What do you mean you're going to tell me that I'm crazy and that I can't leave the home? I was beyond myself with rage. Well, especially, you know, there's probably a part of you that, says, I have a master's degree. Yes.

I have a master's degree. I have spent the last 12 years, however many years, advocating for purity in our environment, in our food, in our, you're going to call me crazy? Yeah. And, you know, there was a part of me that was like, in my own case, I have two Ivy League degrees. You're going to say that I just made this all up in my head. And then when we got to trial, the opposing counsel at the closing argument in my own case

pulled up the diagram of my house, which we'll do for you too. And it showed all the mold results throughout the whole house. And it was our demonstrative. And he showed it to the jury and he said, I'm not going to tell you that there's no mold in this house. We've been through three years of litigation, dude. All of a sudden at the end of trial, you're like,

oh, yeah, there is mold. What? So, you know, sometimes those, their, whatever their position is ends up, they end up, you know, changing it. But what I've learned is, what a gift. Yeah. I mean, what a gift. The other day I showed there is this, there was this deposition where I have this really smart opposing counsel. But male, incredibly arrogant.

associate, young, who deposes my client and says, well, women have stress at work, right? And women have sick kids, right? And women have health challenges, right? And went through all these things that happened to women. And then said, but you think it's stress that causes ectopic pregnancy or something like that. So we showed that clip to a focus group. Focus group just lost their minds. Yeah. They lost their minds. I'd be pissed. So, you know, I embrace what these bad actors are doing to you. You can kind of take a step back and be like, all right, let's see what the jury's going to say about that. You know, let's see what a jury's going to say about the security deposit that you don't have back. Okay. Or, you know, we'll get to mediation and hopefully we'll resolve it

beforehand. But I'm just, I'm learning to see some of that stuff, first of all, to take it less personally, and then to see it as a gift. Yeah. And I also want to tell you that anger is in some ways the foundation of justice. There is, in fact, righteous anger. Oh, yeah. Jesus came in and turned those tables over. And during jury selection, I ask people, you know, is anger ever a good thing?

When is anger good? Well, anger, communal anger, has been the source of a lot of good change over the years. So anger itself is not bad as long as it is used and transformed into action. And in a way, that's what you're doing. You are angry. And that's your body telling you that, whoa, there are boundaries that have been crossed. And now you get to use that anger for the good of all of us.

Yeah. So this doesn't happen to people again. I mean, that's, you know, another thing that Hector and I've talked about that we felt like our hand was forced into this. But now, looking back, had we just gotten out of our lease in January and they'd given us her security deposit back, we would have gone on our way. Through this whole process, we have learned that these landlords are not taking this mold situation seriously at all. And had we done that, chances are they probably would have just got another tenant in there that would have also been. poisoned by mold and they may not have had the resources to move out. They may not even had the, how do I say this in a way where I'm not trying to put them down, but mold is so new that they may not

have, may not have had the education to even know that the symptoms and everything that they were dealing with was mold and they would have never even known to go down that path. So my point is that I think this all happened for a reason and now hopefully we're saving another family from moving in there and then also getting poisoned. Courtney, you continue to think about this case, but don't you see the impact you're having beyond this one apartment? What do you mean? Well, even one case is symbolic because when you talk to a jury, you know, I got to do

that in a case last year and I told jury, you know, this is about more than just this case. what is the message that you want to send? And by the way, that is perfectly legal. There's case law that says that I can say exactly that. What is the message you want to send to landlords in this county or this country or this, you know? And so it's not just about saving the people who are going to move into your particular unit. It's also saving the people down the street. or raising awareness, you know, so that there are going to be people who hear your story

who think, wait a minute, I noticed that and now I feel sick. Maybe so many people have come to me and said, I heard your story. CNBC did a story on my family, and I just got a thousand calls right away. My firm had just opened. but so many people said, I didn't know there was a problem until I heard you. And then I went and tested. And imagine, I mean, you have so many followers

who are doing exactly that right now because you're willing to, you're willing to share it, you're willing to hold your landlord accountable. You're doing that for all of us. Yeah. It's not just about this one landlord. Oh, of course not.

I just was thinking about the direct downstream. of it. But absolutely, I mean, that's why I'm sharing it publicly. It's why instead of just doing this, you know, silently I'm sharing about it. I'm doing a ton of episodes about this and bringing on various mold experts because we didn't know what we didn't know. You didn't know, you didn't know until you went through the same experience. And now that we've learned so much, we're like, oh my gosh, we have to share this because so many people could be struggling and have no idea, which actually brings me to, I want you to share your story because I remember specifically you talking about how seeing, you saw the differences in your children. You felt it too, but also

seeing the differences in your children and then seeing how they were acting once you got out of the house was really pretty amazing to hear. Very sad, but just the story of it is people need to hear it. Well, I was sick for years and couldn't figure out what was wrong with me. And I went to doctor after doctor. Great doctors, by the way. But my doctors didn't know to ask about the environment. So, finally, you know, they said reduce stress in your life. You're a partner at a big law firm doing international trade relation work and you have four children. That's not sustainable, right? So you must switch jobs and reduce stress in your life. So how many women get that message, by the way? All the time. But, you know, I did that. So reducing stress is good. I went to the

government. I had every other Friday off. I spent more time with my kids. I was gluten-free and sugar-free and dairy-free and I was exercising more. And I felt worse. And then they sent us to go work at home during COVID. And then I couldn't see street. And I didn't know what was wrong with me. I knew something was very wrong with me. And I thought about driving into oncoming traffic. And I thought, something's wrong with me. And finally, I went to a concierge doctor who gave me a litany of test. Her name is Dr. Picardo of Resilient Health, saved our life. One of those tests was a mycotoxin test.

And I was testing for everything. Is it from my time in Africa? Do I have malaria still? Do I have ringworm? Do I have West Nile disease, right? And my mycotoxin test was very, very high. And she said, go test your house. and I said, test for what?

I was not in this community. I did not know who Courtney Swan was. I mean, I had never heard any of this before. What do you mean? Test for what? And a mold assessor came in and told me that actually my house was fine. He literally walked around and was like, looks pretty well constructed.

I think you're fine. You took an air sample in the middle of the room. You're good. But I had a different mold assessor who had, I had canceled on because I got the other guy sooner, and he didn't get the message I'd canceled. He shows at my house. I'm in my pajamas.

Again, his name's Tim Taylor, saved my life. He walks in, and I was like, well, I mean, as long as you're here, you might as well look around. He sits down on my living room couch. Who sits down on the living room couch with their, like, maintenance guy? What's going on? And he's like, tell you about your family.

I'm like, what? So, but, you know, I'd been reading about mycotoxins and thought maybe there was an issue with my older daughter and he said I often find it behind the wall of the kid most affected and he took a flashlight to my daughter's wall and by the way now I know that that is actually the standard protocol that's what mold assessors are supposed to do they are trained to interview their clients first because often they find the mold according to the symptoms of the people in the house It is related to health.

Their job is to determine habitability and to find the health hazards. So we opened that wall. It was full of black. It was stacobotris. And cleaned it up. Husband says, we're good. And I just thought, if it's there, where else is it? And I had an expert come.

There was a flashing problem at the roof. the roof had not been flashed properly. And one of the experts said, I think you have an HVAC. I think you have a humidity problem. And thankfully, eventually an HVAC guy, Les Wallace told me that my HVAC itself was creating humidity in the walls.

And so there was humidity throughout the house in the walls. In the kitchen, we found thick chytomium right behind the kitchen cabinets. So it was, by the time I left, I had a tumor. I could not function. I was shaking. I remember not being able to get my heart to stop beating fast and thinking maybe I was going to have a heart attack.

Dr. Womack is this wonderful doctor who came alongside me at that time. She's the one who discovered that I had a tumor. and we slowly started putting my health back together. But, you know, when we were in that house, my two-year-old son was running into walls. He had, and everybody was in therapy, by the way. Like everyone was in therapy, speech therapy, occupational therapy, handwriting therapy, vision therapy.

I just thought I was super mom during COVID, recognizing that all my kids had all these extra needs all of a sudden. Well, I guess, I mean, I guess I'm, You know, I'm just a very resourceful mom who's always going to find the best thing for her kids. And I didn't recognize that there was a root cause. And we have been unraveling those health issues ever since. We have, two of my kids have pans. So what is that, you know, how do we address that?

But also try to encourage them to live a normal, healthy life. because you don't want to make healing a full-time job there. So how do we, you know, get to some semblance of normalcy? And we finally just moved into our safe house. We finally were able to buy a house. And now it feels like we're home again. Oh, good. And you know, it's funny, I'm friends with these women CEOs,

and we were having lunch. And I said, I just feel so motivated with work. I'm like ready to go out there, talk and get out there in the world. And they looked at me and said, of course you are. I was like, what do you mean? You're home. And when you feel like you're home, then you can actually look up and like, okay, there's the world out there.

But when you are running from place to place, dealing with sick kids, dealing with sick yourself, and for me, dealing with sick clients, it's overwhelming and it's fight or flight all the time. And I just encourage all of us and our clients to kind of find home, whatever that is. Maybe it's not a literal home, but like, can we get back to center so that we can move out in strength? You just put into words exactly how I have been feeling since January. And I'm so excited that we're moving into our new home in two weeks because I have never felt more unstable in my whole life.

Oh my gosh. I'm so happy that you finally have that feeling because it is, unless if someone has been there, I don't think you can truly communicate it to them. But it is so, it's so destabilizing. Like I just have felt chaotic in the last couple months. What was it like for you to learn that your home was poisoning you? That's a great question.

You know, I don't think that I had, I would be curious to know what Hector's feeling was. Let me explain why. Is because when I figured that out, my brain works a little bit differently in the sense that I have been trained for the last 20 years or so because of the work that I do and because of the interviews I do and everything that I talk about and I learned about, I knew that mold toxicity was a potential. I had just never been through it personally. I've heard stories, I've seen friends that go through it, I've talked to doctors about it. So I don't think I had as much of a visceral reaction. In fact, Hector and I, basically every home that we've been in, he was joking that I have like an eye for it. Anyway, so my point is that for me, I was like, oh, this makes perfect sense.

Now I felt relieved, if I'm being honest, because I was feeling really intense symptoms that I didn't know where they were coming from. And I had my midwife telling me, this is not normal. You should be past this point in pregnancy. And the symptoms that you're having are not traditional pregnancy symptoms, is what I was told. And so I was going, what is going on with me? And so for me, when I found out I was actually relieved. Do you remember how scary COVID was when in the beginning you were wiping down your groceries? COVID was everywhere.

Where would you be exposed to it? you were scared to go out, this is the reverse. You're scared to be home. Yep. Where is it? And we, during COVID and for those of us who live through that, home is where we're supposed to be safe. Yeah. So now home is unsafe. Now what? There was a feeling of that. After we found out and there was the initial relief that I had of like, okay, now I know where my symptoms are coming from and I know what to do about it, then there was that fear that Hector just mentioned it. I'm going to reiterate it really fast because Hector doesn't have a microphone and I don't know how much that got caught on, but he basically was saying that it was terrifying because there was a invisible enemy in the home.

Where is it? We couldn't initially find it because we just found it in air samples. And then there was this fear of is it in every room, what room is it? Do we need to be avoiding the whole house? Is it on our furniture? Is it on our clothes? And then, yeah, and then I was sharing that fear with him as well where we were going, oh my gosh where is it in the house where was it in the house and we were living there and then me

being pregnant was a whole other thing that you know i've been working through um being concerned about being exposed to my to my baby so yeah it was yeah scary and then and you think about it like being in your home is just concerning so your story is what made you really want to get into this and then you started you created your whole law firm around is it around mold specifically or just environmental toxins. Environmental toxins. Okay. I was just going to take a case or two.

At the time, I was so sick, and I just kind of wanted to work part-time and be with my family and, hey, you know, this happened to us. Maybe I can help a family or two. And that first week, CNBC to the story, my 13-year-old had created a website. I got a thousand inquiries. Wow. And I remember them coming through my email, and they were just, you know, like this. And I was like, how do you create, how do you have intake? How does a firm have

intake? How do they deal with these inquiries? You know, what system do you need? What people do you need? And one of those calls was from Jamie Simick, a very brave woman in Hawaii who saw the story. Someone had given her the story and she watched it. And she was like, that's what I need. And she didn't even know that I had just left the U.S. Attorney's Office. So unbeknownst to her, I was really the perfect person for that, for that Red Hill case, because I was sick myself. I understood it. I knew what they were going through.

And I knew how to, I knew how to litigate. And I was willing to. I was willing to. And of course, I think I was naive in a lot of ways at that time, too. I was just like on this crusade. But I'm still on the crusade four years. and now my vision is so much bigger because when I was sick, lawyers did not return my call.

And, you know, there's this guy here in San Antonio who does wrongful death cases. And I emailed him and he has mold on his website. I emailed him. I found his like direct email. I called him. I called his office. No one returned my call. Not even a call back to say, hey, he's not taking case.

or he's not interested in your case or I was a fellow lawyer I was in a USA reaching out and I was sad and rejected and mad and I thought you know what he can have all the dead people I'm gonna I'm gonna litigate claims for people who are alive and if you call our office no matter where you are in the country we return the call even if you don't have a case We have an option for a resource call, and we'll tell you how to find a mold assessor, and we'll send you the resources I wish I had known. I have this vision that everyone in this country who is poisoned at home should have a number to call.

And that's what we're working towards. I mean, currently, everyone has a number to call. They can call our office. But we want to find lawyers in every state, and we currently have half the states covered. And it can be mold. It can be toxic water. it can be gas. We have some very sad gas cases, right?

It can be carbon monoxide. There are a lot of different forms. Way is, sadly, that your house can kill you or hurt you. So if you're poisoned at home, we want to have a number of call. Yeah, that's really helpful. And obviously, we're going to put your website and everything in the show notes because that's, I would say, the number one biggest question that I get from people in my DMs. Well, actually, I would say that actually, it's a second.

one. The number one I get is, and I want to hear from you, actually, your answer is, how did you know to test for mold? Is the first question I get, and I'm getting, I'm just getting bombarded with DMs about this. And then the second one is, okay, I found mold now. What do I do about it? Who do I call? So what would you say, what are you seeing with most of your clients? How are they, how are they even knowing to test for mold? What are they seeing in their homes and then maybe in their symptoms as well. Well, I get egregious cases. These are landlords who turned a blind eye.

People got very sick. And, you know, they connect the dots maybe because they can see it. There's a leak that hasn't been fixed, et cetera. So that's a very common case for me. But just in general in the country, if you're worried about whether your house is mold, oh, my gosh. Whether you're worried or not. Do a test.

Why not? Just make sure you're living in a safe house. Almost every house has like some problem that is either a problem now or could develop a problem. So, you know, whether it's through negligence or not, right? You might have, maybe you didn't water your plant very well and it spilled, right? What not every case involves negligence. But a lot of houses have an issue, one issue or another. So have someone come and test and,

fix the issue before it becomes worse. Any sort of water damage can develop mold. So we want to make sure we address water damage right away. If there's been a leak and you haven't addressed it right away or it's grown over time, test it. Well, first of all, remove the water damage because you always want to find the source of the mold. But you want to remove any water damage,

whether there's mold or not, so it doesn't grow mold. But if you have mold, make sure that you have identified the source, stopped the source, and importantly, do a full inspection of your whole house. Yeah. Because if you're, you know, we could have stopped at my daughter's room. And in fact, the remediation company was like, well, you're done. You're good.

So. And it was everywhere in your house, right? It was, well, the thickest amount was in our kitchen. Oh, yeah, that's right. you said that. So if we had, and we ultimately ended up removing the bricks on our house, but I don't want to scare the listeners because not every house is as bad as mine. It's, and don't turn a blind eye to it because almost always it can be fixed. And almost always, you can stop a problem before it develops. So you want to know what

you're dealing with. If you're in a house that is making you sick, please leave the house for any period of time. I have a client Brooke who died at 31 in the house I told her to leave. Why? She was waiting for the HVAC guy to come fix it. It was their problem. They hadn't fixed it. She had asked multiple times.

They knew there was a problem. They hadn't fixed it. She was very upset about that. This was her first house. She was not going to leave until they fixed the problem. They don't get to determine whether she leaves her house or not. You can see why she felt that way. Yeah.

And she died. From what? What was the, obviously from the mold, but what is it? She had a, she had a, I think it was a cardiac event. Yeah. So, you know, mold attacks the immune system. So look, had she had heart issues probably, right? It's not, I'm not saying it causes death for everybody.

Yeah. But whatever someone has, whatever's lurking there, if you attack the immune system, if you create systemic inflammation, it's going to trigger that thing. If you're inclined to EDS, right, it can trigger EDS. It can, the genetics may load the gun, but the environment pulls the trigger. So just get out for a little bit, clear your head, and make a safety plan because you may think that you can't afford to leave. And that may be true.

but you also may not be able to afford to stay. And if you stay and get sicker and sicker, then sometimes you can't work and then you can't earn income for your family. So these are not easy questions, especially for my military families. And I just always want to give the caveat that it doesn't have to be immediate.

Make a safety plan so that you can move in the direction of safety. Maybe right now you can only get air purifiers, okay? Get air purifiers and then make a plan. But if you come to me and you tell me that your kids have been hospitalized multiple times because of your house, I won't even take your case. Yeah. Because the jury's going to look at that and say you're putting your kid in danger, right? At some, I have clients who have lived in a tent in their backyard. I know that sounds extreme, but for that client, that's how they got well.

Hector said, how do you know which test is the right one to do, which is snake oil, what's not? So if you reach out to my office, I'll send you some resources for how to find a mold assessor. But the question that I want to ask is, is this a mold assessor who works with sick families? Because if they work with sick families, they're actually trying to find it. I had a mold assessor coming to my office. I will not mention their name, but they were coming to clear the office. I called them clearance testers. They took an air sample right at my desk while there were six air scrubbers running around the entire office space,

including an air purifier in my room. They didn't even turn them off. You're testing the air. With air scrubbers going? I mean, and I looked at the man and I said, you know, I don't think you're going to get an accurate result because you have an air. I was very calm.

And he looked at me and he said, man, this is industry standard. Wow. The level of rage in Christina Bearer with this like man telling me what industry standard is after I have dedicated this overeducated mind for four years to understanding the industry standard, there is no industry standard

that allows you to test while air purifiers are going. What industry would allow that? Of course not, right? Of course not. And there's another man standing at my door who looked at me and he said, ma'am, we've been doing this a long time and we know what we're doing. But here's what's upsetting. He's right.

They have been doing it a long time. And they know exactly what they're doing. They are coming in to clear a space whether it's safe or not. And so most most And if they're working for the landlord Exactly. If you are living So your first reaction is going to be, hey, you're going to ask your landlord, can you hire

someone to test? Don't do that. Because those testers are clearance testers and they're going to come in the room and they're going to clear it. They might even, I've heard this has happened in my cases. They run an air scrubber and they tell the person, oh no, we cleaned the air. And then they test it and it's safe.

They did this to us. The landlords literally did that to us. I mean, it is, it's outrageous. So you want to find a mold assessor who works with sick families and is actually looking for mold. And then they're going to come in and they're going to do a full home assessment. And they're going to do what Tim Taylor did. They're going to take out a flashlight. And please ask them to look in the HVAC because that is what is often missed.

Some of these mold assessors say, well, I'm not, I'm not licensed. Well, find someone who's licensed because you've got to check your HVAC. And so often the HVAC itself is just pure black. And it doesn't matter, you know, you might not have water damage and you could miss it if you don't look directly in the HVAC. So this is what HVACD and I learned was that a lot of these companies will come in and they'll just do an air sample. And we also learned, correct me if I'm wrong, but we learned the very first test that we did because we didn't know any better, we just did an air sample. But the stacobotris actually came back in the air sample, which is why the guy was freaking out. about the mold assessor that called us because he said if stackey botchrist is showing up in the air you have a

really big problem is the way that he described it to us because you don't generally find it in the air but obviously you can because we did and it would maybe explain why the other tests that our landlord did where they didn't find it because they one they were actively trying i think not to find it and also it was a lot of it was behind our shower and from what hector and i understand is that we had our shower running every day. So we were getting it wet. And by the time our landlords went into test, we hadn't been living in the house for three or four weeks.

And so the shower wasn't wet. And it probably wasn't kicking it all up in the air, is what I'm understanding. So what we had to do is we had to find somebody, what you just said, who was willing to actually go look in the HVAC, and he can also look in the walls. And actually, our guy didn't do this, but he was telling us that, like, what they can do, which some companies were saying that they wouldn't do this.

But again, he didn't do this in our house. But what he was saying, if he felt like he needed to, is that he could put like a tiny pinhole. You know, he doesn't need to knock down a wall, just a tiny pinhole just to get a little camera in there to see in the walls. And when we were looking for somebody that could actually find the mold for us, we called multiple companies because many of them said, oh, no, we don't go in the HVAC and we don't look in the wall.

We just do an air sample. And we were like, we need you to find it. So for those companies. You know, I got that guy at deposition, I ask him, you know, that mold assessor who tests the middle of the room, I say, where is mold usually found in a house? In the walls? They'll always tell me in the walls, usually behind a wall. In the HVAC.

Or in the HVAC, but usually they'll tell me behind a wall. Well, if you're looking for mold behind a wall, are you more likely to find it in the middle of the room? Exactly, exactly. Or closer to the wall. And, you know, they kind of give this like sheepish look at me close to the wall. Which, by the way, when you're sleeping, and this is how I tested my new house to make sure it was safe, I asked wonderful mold assessor Josh Rashall to take air samples right at our pillows, which is close to a wall.

Do you see? Yep, yep. The wall's behind me farther away, but the air sample close to the wall. is what found one spore of stacubotris in my daughter's room. Wow. Only one spore opened it up and it was completely black. Wow. So, but her head was by that wall for, corny, eight years.

Eight years. Eight years, her head was by that wall. Oh, that makes me sad. And, you know, the NIH has recognized now that mold causes cognitive harm. Yeah. What happened with your brain? I know. And so, you know, same thing with my head was by a wall, right?

My son's head was by a wall. But my two kids were most effective. They happened to be, happened to be sleeping next to the two flashing defects that were allowing water to penetrate into their respective wall. Now, of course, the whole house was toxic and the kitchen was toxic. toxic and all that, but it's not interesting. Yeah, that's really interesting. So we don't, it's really dangerous and it really affects your brain and it affects your immune system and it affects every system because it attacks the immune system and creates

systemic inflammation and that then cascades and all these other ways. Well, can't being exposed to black mold make you go crazy? Well, that's, I mean, when you're asked crazy. Yes. It causes neurological damage. It causes neurological damage. Causes the word finding that you're talking about, right? It causes short-term memory loss.

But mostly, and you can see this on QEGs, mostly it causes this fog. And it makes you feel slow. Like you're living a little bit in a daze. and you can't respond quickly. So I would be at an oral argument and I'd be asked a question. I couldn't answer fast enough. Yeah.

I felt dumb. And I'm usually a smart person. I was a smart person. So I was used to talking to smart people and talking fast and they're talking fast and understanding it all and kind of like, and then all of a sudden I felt dumb. But I say that what I lost in brain power

I gained an empathy. And now I have a superpower of connecting with sick communities and sick families that I didn't have before. But it is sad to see your brain change. Yeah. And it affects, it's going to affect you long term. You know, I'm not saying you personally, but often it's people who have,

especially, you know, eight years sleeping next to acupunctris. Oh, I know. It makes me sad. How big is the mold problem in the U.S. right now, do you think? huge, but here's why. Because we have those landlords saying that they're not going to use the word mold. That's their policy. That's the policy of all these military housing companies, too. And it's the policy, let me understand. Is the policy for just standard personal owners, landlords? Are you talking more about in the, what's the word for it?

I'm talking about apartment complexes and housing complexes. And big companies like lend lease and Balfour Beatty and Michaels, these are just some of the companies I've sued. You know, they're very big institutions and Grey Star, big housing companies. And those big housing companies often have a policy not to use the word mold. So there's one military housing company that I, I have not sued, actually, but they would replace the word mold with a number.

So none of their housing records had the word mold. Well, that was really convenient because in military housing, you're supposed to give the new tenant a seven-year maintenance history. And the whole point of the seven-year maintenance history was to identify safety concerns. And really to identify mold, right? Well, lo and behold, I don't have a single client who's gotten a seven-year history that discloses mold. Maybe water, maybe a leak. But how about an entire wall full of mold

because it's saturated to 90%. I had a landlord tell one of my clients, a military landlord, this is Belford Beatty. I'm not afraid to use names. It's true. Water was coming out of a socket. Socket. She has toddlers, a toddler.

They literally told her, that the solution was to remove the socket, protector, and let it air out. We took pictures of the water coming out. We said that was one of the few times where we really said, you've got to leave now. This is not safe. This is really not safe because your kid could. Exactly. I mean, this is a fire hazard, right?

Yeah. Anytime you have water and electricity, you got to get out. So for her, our inspector did say get out right now. Otherwise, we talk about a safety plan and time and whatever. but she then went back to the housing company and she showed them our pictures of the water coming through. I could see it. And they said, no, no, it's, we haven't identified any mold.

So you need to stay in the house. They wouldn't give her alternative living. Well, they haven't identified the mold because they haven't looked in the wall. The mold's behind the wall. Of course it's there if there's water coming out of the socket. All of these houses have in that particular neighborhood have walls that are saturated with water

because they put on these metal roofs and they didn't add the appropriate ventilation. So you're in humid, you know, and they added an HVAC so you're in humid Florida, the walls are condensating and literally dripping. And ceilings are falling down in those houses. Literally ceilings are falling down. And you know what they did for the ceilings?

No, what? Well, you know that what's the first thing you're supposed to do if there's wet material? You want to get rid of it, right? You remove the wet material. Yeah. Because you don't want it to fester and become mold. This is like... That's like...

Not run of the ones. Yeah, exactly. So rather than removing the wet materials, they put these wooden strips like shiplap, painted the same color as the ceiling. Oh, no. And just locked it in. hold the wet ceiling in place

so that it wouldn't fall down on these families because so many houses had, so many ceilings had fallen in. That was their solution. They went around every one of these houses and they put in the shiplow. That's great. This is Balfour Beatty.

That's what they do. So if you have landlords, if you said, is there a mold problem in our country? Yes, because you have landlords like that. And there was a time in our country when lawyers weren't bringing personal injury claims for mold. And that's because they weren't covered by insurance. And there's still an exception in these insurance contracts.

And I say, like, okay, see you on Tuesday. I just bring the claim anyway. But there were lawyers who were not bringing these claims for a long time. And don't you see what happens? When there's a season, even, of no claims being brought, then the law is not being enforced. then there's going to be, you're going to turn, you know, more landlords turning a blind eye because that's their incentive.

Or more contractors or builders who don't care about mold because, you know, no one's holding them accountable for that and their insurance company doesn't, you know, cover it. And so they don't worry about it. And so there was a season where builders and landlords didn't worry about it. And my firm is here saying start, worrying about it. Start paying attention because you have a duty to pay attention. You have, you have an obligation to build safe houses. People have the right to expect a safe house.

When they buy a house, people have the right to expect a safe apartment when they rent an apartment. And in order to provide a safe apartment or build a safe house, you have to pay attention to the environment. Are newer homes more likely to have mold problems than older ones? Yes. Why is that? Because it's in part building material, but it's in part these new industry standards or incentives to create very tight homes. Oh, yeah.

So my home was built with spray foam. Well, if you're going to have spray foam, you need to make sure that that HVAC is exactly properly sized and it has extra dehumidification because otherwise the moisture is going to grow into the spray foam, which is what happened in my house. And that's happening in so many houses because the HVAC companies aren't properly trained. They're putting in HVACs that are not properly sized. They're not adding the dehumidification that's required. And then they're building these toxic bubbles.

And they're putting them up so fast. And so the house may be fine when you buy it, but two years in, there's mold in every wall. because it's condensating. And the problem in those houses that I have is even if it's something innocuous, like a toilet leak or something, well, it's going to become toxic because that house doesn't let the house breathe and it's not bringing enough air in from outside most of the time. So if it's not allowing that toilet to dry and it's keeping that air,

from the house inside, then it's going to become toxic that much faster. So I have a problem. It's not just the HVAC, but it's anything else that happens in the house. You buy a new couch and there's VOCs. Well, if the house isn't breathing, then you're in this toxic bubble or a bubble that can become toxic really fast. What you have is, especially in Texas, you have contractors who are not supervising their projects very well. So in my particular house, for example, the roofer was not there at the same time as the mason, and they need to be there together to build the chimney because you put brick and then you put metal,

and then you put brick and metal, and that's how you waterproof a chimney. So they didn't do that. The roofer told my landlord, and not my landlord, the builder and the foreman. The mason built the chimney without me. It's not flashed. We have to redo it.

the foreman told him, rig it. And so on the outside, it's rigged. So Bob, my lawyer, has that roof or deposition and says, okay, did you know that rigging it the way you rigged it, which was rigged to pass inspection? That's fraudulent, right? That's concealment. That's deceptive.

Did you know that that was going to cause water intrusion? Yes. Did you know that water intrusion? causes water damage? Yes. Did you know that water damage causes mold? Yes. Did you know that mold hurts people? Yes. You just poison this family. Oh, there needs to be more education. You didn't mean to, right? But that was the foreseeable result of rigging the chimney. The foreseeable result of rigging the chimney was that this little girl in this pink and white room that was pink when we bought it would get sick. And you knew that. And that's what the law is for. I don't think

that my builder, my builder's a nice guy. I never use his name. Really nice guy. He didn't mean to poison my family, but he made choices that poisoned my family. And part of bringing the case is education, I don't think that roofer is going to make that kind of shortcut again. this family got really sick. I don't think my builder is going to use spray foam like that and an H-Fact that didn't dehumidify. I think he's going to be more careful. And that's what the law is for.

We want people to be more careful. You know, we want caution. We want, I want you to assume that the water is not safe. It's before you tell them it is safe. I want you to exercise caution. I want you to be safe. And that's what it is all about. And when contractors are cutting costs and cutting corners,

they are making all of us less safe. Hector's asking, what do we think the solution is to this? I think the solution is education. And you talk about this a lot on your podcast and in your messaging, but you educate about where the money goes. And there was a season here in our country where all the money went to influencing the CDC and others to say that mold didn't make people sick

or that mole didn't cause brain damage in particular, right? Or hemorrhaging like we saw with babies. And there was a man named Bruce Kelman who was an expert, for the defense, who wrote a book, I mean, wrote an article for ACOM, didn't disclose his conflict. That article was then withdrawn, but the Manhattan Institute paid him to make this article that had been withdrawn into a paper for the chambers of commerce, for the laypeople. And in that, he said that mold illness was junk science. He used the word junk science.

Well, that paper has been used in every litigation ever since by the defense. And think about this. There's a generation of lawyers, a generation of judges, and a generation of contractors, and a generation of doctors who were all taught, according to these defense experts, that mold illness was junk science. Yeah. So I think educating about the real health impact of mold, and that it does cause brain damage, and that it does cause immune problems, and it does cause autoimmune problems.

problems. And it does cause cancer and it does cause death. Well, now, now I think people are going to start paying attention and start being more careful if they actually believe it. And I think sharing your story, sharing my story is part of that. Bringing our voices to the narrative, it's harder to call me crazy when I have two Ivy League degrees. So I actually thought that I was kind of going to be immune from the crazy accusation, but I wasn't. Fine. Bring it on. You can call me crazy. you want but I'm going to lend this influence this education I have to this to this effort to this education effort and I and I hope that that will that will make a difference but let me end with this there may be lawyers who don't believe it judges who don't believe it

Western doctors who don't believe it because they were influenced but you know who does believe bit, the people. When I do focus groups, when I go and pick juries and I say, how many of you believe that mold causes harm? Every one of them raises their hand. How many of you believe that mold causes brain damage? Every one of them raises their hand. Can mold kill you? They know it can because it's happened to them or someone they know. So I have great hope in our country that this will change. because as long as we can present these cases to the people and we can allow the people to enforce the safety rules, the incentives are going to change.

And people are going to be aware, and there's going to be accountability. And that's what the law is for. I love this so much. This is why I wanted to bring you on because we really wanted to drive that message home that the law is on our side and we're using it to our advantage

in order to hopefully create changes that actually really protect people. and protect their health because we live in a time where many of us are waking up to all of these issues, for example, the glyphosate and we're waking up to mold and we're waking up to all this stuff that's been causing harm that, you know, just humanity, we didn't know all these things. Now we're learning and we're doing better and we need to make sure that the law is catching up and protecting us from all of this and we're fighting hard to make sure that happens. Thank you so much for coming on. This has been amazing. Okay, please. Yes, please let everybody

know where they can find you. I also just, I wanted to share this too just really quickly. I think you already know this, but I don't know if you remember. Well, the reason that I reached out to you about my mold case was because I posted on Instagram that we were having an issue. And I got bombarded so much with your name. I got emails from friends. I got text messages from friends. I got so many DMs from people that were like, you have to reach out to Christina Bear. She's a badass. And what she's doing is exactly what you were talking about. And so I just want to say the people love you.

Oh, thank you. And they know that you're doing really good work. So thank you so much for the work that you're doing. And please let everybody know where they can find you. And we'll also put your website in the show notes too. You can find us at well.org. And the best way to reach out directly is through the website. You can put a submission in there and we will call you back.

If you reach out to us, you will have a call if you want anywhere in the country. That's my guarantee to you because I want you to have a number to call. And we're raising up an army of lawyers. We have about half of the states covered. If you have a viable case from another state, we will try to find you a lawyer. And we can do that through our central office. And then, of course, in Texas, we're taking all the cases. Deceptive trade practices claims.

Here we go. Thanks. Yay. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you so much for listening to the Real Foodology Podcast. This is a Wellness Loud production produced by Drake Peterson. Themesong is by Georgie. You can watch the full video version of this podcast inside the Spotify app or on YouTube. As always, you can leave us a voicemail by clicking the link in our bio. And if you like this episode, please rate and review on your podcast app.

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