Realfoodology - Micro-dosing Psychedelics + Healing Your Mental Health | Paul Austin

Episode Date: July 3, 2024

EP. 201: Today’s guest is Paul Austin of Third Wave. This episode is all about microdosing psychedelics, so I guess this is a bit of a trigger warning. If this is something that you don't feel comfortable hearing about, talking about, discussing, then I would skip this episode, because we talk a lot about psilocybin. We talk about psychedelics as a whole, talk a lot about Paul Austin and his work with Third Wave, where their mission is to nurture the emerging psychedelic ecosystem by providing individuals with research-based education, access to vetted providers and membership in their global community, a safe space to ask questions, share experiences and connect with others on a similar journey.  Topics Discussed 07:39 - Paul Austin’s upbringing and origin in psychedelic work 13:45 - What someone can expect when they microdose 17:57 - Microdosing and LSD protocol 21:14 - Mental health benefits 26:58 - Dimming down the fear 28:28 - Unpacking Courtney’s experience and advice for first timers 32:56 - Building your own protocol 35:53 - Growing your own mushrooms with Third Wave 37:14 - The Microdosing Collective and policy changes 42:35 - Clinical research with MDMA and PTSD 44:50 - Old School approach towards drug exploration and psychedelic training 47:57 - How to find resources and assistance 51:03 - Who microdosing is right for 54:25 - Concerns about negative long term effects 56:43 - Connection your intuition with your psychedelic use 58:41 - “Mushroom hangover” 01:00:30 - Dopamine depletion 01:02:31 - Paul’s health non-negotiables Check Out Paul Austin Paul Austin Instagram Show Links: ThirdWave Website  ThirdWave Instagram ThirdWave Mushroom Grow Kit The Microdosing Collective Sponsored By: BIOptimizers Get your free bottle of magnesium breakthrough while supplies last at magbreakthrough.com/realfoodologyfree Qualia Go to Qualialife.com/REALFOODOLOGY for up to 50% off and use code REALFOODOLOGY at checkout for an additional 15% off. LMNT Get your free Sample Pack with any LMNT drink mix purchase at drinklmnt.com/realfoodology  Organifi Go to www.organifi.com/realfoodology and use code REALFOODOLOGY for 20% Off ARMRA Get 15% off your first order at tryarmra.com/realfoodology Check Out Courtney:  LEAVE US A VOICE MESSAGE Check Out My new FREE Grocery Guide! @realfoodology www.realfoodology.com My Immune Supplement by 2x4 Air Dr Air Purifier AquaTru Water Filter EWG Tap Water Database Produced By: Drake Peterson Edited By: Mike Frey

On today's episode of The Real Foodology Podcast. We're still all guinea pigs in this to some degree. We have a lot of longitudinal data, even from ancient times about high dose psychedelic use. We know that the occasional high dose when done in a safe setting is very healthy. What we don't know right now is the sort of pros and cons of taking low doses of psychedelics consistently for a long period of time. Hello, friends. Welcome back to The Real Foodology Podcast. I'm your host, Courtney Swan, and today's guest is Paul Austin of Third Wave. This is an episode all about microdosing psychedelics. So I guess this is a bit of a trigger warning. If this is something that

you don't feel comfortable hearing about, talking about, discussing, then I would skip this episode because we talk a lot about psilocybin. We talk about psychedelics as a whole. Talk a lot about Paul Austin and his work with Third Wave, where their mission is to nurture the emerging psychedelic ecosystem by providing individuals with research-based education, access to vetted providers and membership in their global community, a safe space to ask questions, share experiences, and connect with others on a similar journey. I really enjoyed this episode. As you guys know, if you've been listening to the podcast for a couple of years now, you know that I've been on

my own journey with psychedelics and they have really helped me on a healing journey is what I would like to say, because I think I really ultimately have healed myself. And I think it's a lifelong journey in which I've talked about before, but it really has helped me a lot with the traumatic experiences that I went through growing up as a kid. And so I feel very passionate about this subject. And I wanted to do an episode with Paul just to really dive into the science behind microdosing. And I really believe like he does that microdosing can help a lot of people. I also think there's a time and a place for macrodosing, which is taking more in one sitting to really allow yourself to be immersed with your subconscious and to heal certain patterns in your life, maybe heal traumatic

experiences that you've been through. Now, I do want to say that, you know, if you're on any sort of drugs, especially like SSRIs, definitely consult with your doctor. I don't want anybody to do anything that would be potentially harmful. Make sure that you are in a safe place, that you're under the care of people that can watch over you. Just make sure that you are under the care of someone. I'm speaking to everyone, even if you're not on medication or if you are. So always consult with your practitioners, make sure that you are doing things that are safe for yourself. I never want anybody to get harmed. And of course, this is not medical advice. This is just

Paul Austin talking about his experiences with microdosing, also my experiences. And we're just sharing because they have greatly impacted our lives and we've seen the improvement and we want to share with people. It's also a question I get a lot from people about how do you microdose? So we talk about that. How do you microdose? How do you get your hands on it? So we address all of that. And I think we should just get into the episode because it's a really good one. So on that note, thank you guys for listening. If you're enjoying the podcast, please take a moment to rate and review. It means so much to me and it really does help the show. And then as always, if you want to tag me at realfoodology on Instagram, I see most of your messages and I'm so grateful for the support.

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Paul, thank you so much for coming on today. I'm so excited to have this conversation with you. Very excited to dive into the world of microdosing, the science behind it. I want to hear about your experiences and about your company. So first and foremost, just thank you so much for coming on today. Thank you for having me on, Courtney. I'm glad that we could drop in amidst, you know, you got a lot going on in your personal life and you've just sort of set off on a move. So I'm excited to talk all about psychedelics and microdosing and just see where it goes. Yeah, same. Thank you. Well,

first and foremost, I'm really curious to know about what your personal experience is with psychedelics. How did you get into this space? Maybe you can share a really profound experience that you had. What was your motivation to start your company and get into all this? So I grew up in a community that, you know, whenever I tell people where I'm from, their mind is a little blown that I actually do all this psychedelic work. I grew up in a place called Grand Rapids, which is in West Michigan. And West Michigan is quite traditional. And I grew up in a progressive family. My parents were both Democrats, but they were also very hardcore church people, right? And so every Sunday, we were at church, going to church. I went on mission trips. And it wasn't fundamentalist

necessarily, but it was like we had no other option, right? It was like every Sunday we were there. And so my parents really had a view that was very driven by what they learned from the christian church and the bible and one of the things that came out of that was a deep skepticism of things that were illegal or drugs or altered states of consciousness right and yet by the age of 15 16 i was really starting to step into my more rebellious phase, partly because I was raised in such a sheltered environment. I really needed to figure out what life was like for myself. And so at the age of 16, I found myself experimenting with cannabis, with marijuana.

And soon after I started experimenting, my parents found out that I had been smoking cannabis and they sat me down one sunday after church like incredibly disappointed they could not believe that i would ever do this and my dad looked at me and my dad's a very like sweet kind human but he looked at me and he said you know i haven't been this disappointed since my brother passed away in a car accident right that's That's how impactful my decision to alter my consciousness with cannabis was to them, that they were raised in the sort of just say no era of Nancy Reagan and the war on drugs,

that clearly doing this was just, they could not believe that I would ever do something illegal, much less a drug that was known to ruin countless lives as they believed. And so from that moment on, I came to realize that, okay, if I'm going to continue to become my own person, there's a part of myself that I have to hide from my family for fear of being shamed and guilted and all these sorts of things. And so a few years after that, the same friend who introduced me to cannabis then introduced me to psilocybin mushrooms when I was 19 at the time.

And my first ever experience with psychedelics was interesting, I would say, but it wasn't necessarily like the profound before mushrooms and after mushrooms moment that some folks have. For me, that didn't come until about five months later when I tried LSD for the first time. And when I tried LSD for the first time, not at a microdose, at a fairly high dose, that for me was the moment of, oh, wow, like I can see why people talk about psychedelics in the way they talk about it. I felt this deep connection and reverence to nature. I felt this connection to everything around me, this deep sense of love and gratitude and appreciation. And as I started to

embark on my own healing journey with psychedelics at the age of 19, 20, what I healed from was a lot of the shame and the guilt that had been conditioned into me, both in my religious upbringing, but also specific to drug use. And so my early experiences with psychedelics really helped me to release a lot of that shame and guilt. And they brought me into the recognition that it wasn't necessarily that something was wrong with me, but that in fact, the set and setting, the context, the environment in which I was born into was just not ideal for who I am and who I wanted to become. And so I made the decision when I was experimenting with psychedelics that I would pave my own path, that I would live a more unconventional lifestyle. And so at the age

of 21, I moved abroad. This was like three weeks after graduating from undergrad. I moved abroad. I moved to Turkey where I taught English for a full year. And while teaching English in Turkey, I started to learn about digital nomadism and the four-hour work week and how you could work remotely and you could travel anywhere and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so I moved to Thailand soon after that, where I lived in Chiang Mai for a year. And while in Chiang Mai, I was starting to really get into productivity and flow state and optimization and all these sorts of things. And I listened to the Tim Ferriss podcast at that time. And he had interviewed this

gentleman named Dr. James Fadiman, who had written a book called The Psychedelic Explorer's Guide. And so I listened to that podcast. Jim talked about microdosing. And I thought back to those early psychedelic experiences that I had. And I was like, I noticed that for a week or two weeks or three weeks after those experiences, I was more connected, I was more loving, I was more present, I was more disciplined, I was more mindful. There were all these sort of benefits. And then three, four weeks after some of that would dissipate and some of the old patterns and behaviors would start to come back in. And so when I heard about microdosing, I was like, oh, I wonder if this is a way that I could elongate,

extend that window of neuroplasticity so I can actually feel more present, more connected, more mindful for longer. And so in 2015, I started to experiment with microdosing. And soon after that started Third Wave. And so Third Wave is now the educational platform that I've been building out for the last nine years. And the focus of third wave is how do we steward intentional and responsible psychedelic use in culture at large. And for me, I really believe microdosing is a great bridge for folks who are fairly new to psychedelics. And what I often say is that

the problem isn't necessarily LSD. The problem is that in the 50s and 60s, we were just doing way too much of it. And so if we can actually learn to slightly shift how we approach these substances, they can have tremendous real world benefits for people from every walk of life. So what are you seeing? What can someone expect when they're microdosing? What are some of the benefits that somebody gets from it? So usually I focus on two main things just to keep it really simple for folks so they can understand some of these benefits. One is neuroplasticity, right? And so the neuroplasticity really started to get more attention probably in the last 20 years or so. And it was usually the mindfulness meditation

community that there was some early research done that showed, oh, if you meditate every day for six to eight weeks, your brain becomes more plastic. There's more gray area that's developed in the brain, which makes it easier for you to adapt to new circumstances, to change behaviors, to learn new patterns, new behaviors, new skills. And psychedelics, especially microdosing, have a very similar impact. When you microdose consistently, it increases something called BDNF, brain-derived neurotropic factor, which is a precursor to neuroplasticity. And so what a lot of folks notice is as they consistently microdose, typically a microdosing protocol is two or three times a week for at least 30 days, if not 60 or 90 days, they notice that,

oh, I'm a little bit more adaptable. I have a little bit more energy. My mood's a little bit better. I'm willing to learn new things i'm willing to let go of old patterns and behaviors and step into new ones and so the first main benefit that a lot of folks notice is neuroplasticity and and just overall cognitive function the second thing that i that i often talk about is um is the capacity to be more courageous. And that's because when we're taking these low doses of psychedelics, it down-regulates the fear response from our amygdala. So the amygdala is a tiny almond-shaped size thing that's deep in our brain. It's the reptilian brain. And whenever we are afraid, whenever we have fear around something that starts to get activated. And it can often

prevent us from making the difficult choices and decisions that we know are going to benefit us in the long term. And so when people start to microdose consistently, they notice I'm able to have that difficult conversation with my spouse or partner, or I'm able to take on that difficult creative project that I've always been procrastinating on, or I'm able to take on that difficult creative project that I've always been procrastinating on, or I'm able to have the courage to stop smoking or exercise more or do things that I really think will benefit me in the long term. And so that capacity to be more courageous and really stick up for ourselves and do what we know is best for us is another huge benefit of microdosing. And all in all, now that more and more clinical research

has been carried out in microdosing, those two impacts on neuroplasticity and on courage often mean that people have more energy, they have a better mood, they're less depressed, and interestingly enough, they get better sleep. And I think that's partly because when people start to microdose, they're more active, they exercise more, they take better care of themselves, which naturally leads to better sleep. So those are the two things, neuroplasticity, courage. And then typically the most common reasons people come into microdosing is either because they really want to get off SSRIs, right? They've

been prescribed Prozac or Zoloft or Lexapro or even Welbutrin or Abilify or other mood stabilizing drugs. And they're really just sick and tired of feeling sick and tired and addicted to these psychiatric medications. And so they're looking to low doses of psychedelics to help wean off of that. And I will say, if folks who are listening to this, if that's of curiosity, it's important to do that under the guidance of a medical professional because there can be challenges within that. And then the other main reason people come into it is, and this is for me, they're really interested in flow, creativity, productivity. They want to explore how do I go from being good to being great. And so microdosing can also be a great tool to enhance creativity, to improve communication,

and to just generally sort of get more out of everyday life. You know, so we started talking about this a little bit before we were recording, and then I've stopped you. I was like, I would actually love to talk about this on the podcast. So for microdosing specifically, is there like, I know that there is a specific protocol that people can buy. So I know that like there's practitioners out there that sell pills or little chocolates that you can do for microdosing purposes. If somebody already had mushrooms, so like, for example, I have a mushroom chocolate bar for my friend, would this be something that I could just like take off little bites throughout the day or like, you know, have a little bit in the morning and effectively dose myself that way? Or do you really think that it's more important to have an actual protocol that you do so you

kind of know how much you're doing every day? That's a great question. So like most things, it depends. Typically for those who are fairly new to psychedelics, I strongly encourage a structured protocol, at least as a starting point, because the downside of just doing it haphazardly, like, I got this mushroom chocolate, I'll take a little bit, see what happens. Most folks notice that doesn't have much impact because there's not much of an intention. And so intention is really critical while microdosing, just like with high doses. And so typically what I tell folks is give it a minimum of six weeks. So even through ThirdWay, we have like a six-week group coaching container where folks who are fairly new to this can come into the group coaching container

and we provide sort of structure and guidance in terms of how to navigate that six weeks. If microdosing with psilocybin mushrooms, typically my perspective is do it three times a week, basically every other day. So sometimes it'll be three times, sometimes it'll be four times a week. And then if someone is interested in LSD to do that at most twice a week. And that's because LSD is much more stimulating than psilocybin. And so if folks do the LSD too often, it can sometimes lead to anxiety. And so I encourage folks if they're interested in LSD just to do it twice a week. And that structured protocol then, what we coach folks on is if you're coming into that six weeks,

what's your goal? What's the objective? What's the outcome? It could be to wean off certain psychiatric medications. It could be to have a difficult conversation or repair your relationship with your spouse or your partner. It could be to start a creative project, like a book that you've been putting off for months or years or decades even. And so there can be a way in which utilizing the energy that microdosing provides, because I really look at it as a catalyst, right? We don't want to look at microdosing as a magic pill. In other words, if I take this, it's going to fix me because that's the conditioning that we are stepping out of when we start to work with psychedelic substances.

We really want to look at it as an ally, that this is an ally in my process of healing, growth, and transformation. I have a relationship with it. And at the end of the day, the power still lies within me to make the changes that I need to make. And so I think remembering that and going forward with that is really critical for anyone, especially if they're going from psychiatric medications to low doses of psychedelics, because the conditioning of psychiatric medications is just take this pill every day, it'll make you feel better. And I think that perspective and approach is what's wrong with our whole mental health care system at this point in time. I'm so glad you brought this up. This is why I am such a proponent for microdosing is because it gives you your power back. I feel like I don't want anybody to feel bad about being

on pharmaceutical drugs if that is their chosen path or they really need them. My way of going about things in life is that I have never wanted to go on pharmaceutical drugs. For example, I've always really struggled with a lot of anxiety. And I never wanted to just numb myself out with pills. I wanted to get to the root cause and I wanted to figure out tools and ways that I could overcome it by myself and so that I could truly feel like I actually like healed myself of it right and that's what's so amazing about microdosing is that I feel like it's not doing it for you like the drugs are

just doing it for you they're numbing you out or they're like turning off certain things in your brain whereas the microdosing it's like it it gives you an upper hand and tools to help you really navigate whatever it is that you're dealing with and help you figure it out so that you can make really massive, effective changes in your life. And I love that you brought that up. The metaphor that I'll often use to describe this is like microdosing is like a lubricant for your brain, right? And I won't get too sexual with the metaphor, but it's like, you can use no lubricant and you can make it harder on yourself if it's not as pleasurable and it's not as nice. Or with microdosing as an ally, you can have that

and it's just going to make everything feel smoother, feel better, feel more pleasurable. And so I think I really look at microdosing as that way that, yeah, it's just a lubricant for your ego. It helps the ego to better adapt. It helps the personality to maybe take a little bit more of a step back because sometimes we're so attached to our identity as it is. And we forget that our identity and our ego is often the thing that's blocking us from true growth and true transformation. And so microdosing is often a way to just sort of knock it slightly out of the way. And as you probably know, and as I certainly know, high doses, high therapeutic doses of psychedelics can totally dissolve the ego. And that requires a whole different setting and context in which

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microdosing and something that has helped me a lot is you talked earlier about how it kind of dims down that fear. And there's certain things that we as humans don't do because we're scared, right? We avoid the hard conversations. We avoid certain things. We avoid, you know, doing certain things with our business because we're scared of the failure. But when we can dim down that fear a little bit, I've found personally for myself that it has really helped me to have the hard conversations, jump into the things that I'm scared of because it makes it so much easier because you don't feel as fearful. You almost feel like more empowered when you're doing it with the microdosing. And I found that that really helps a lot. Yeah. It's just like that little bit of, like you called it, an upper hand, right? It just gives you

that little bit of push to take the leap that you know you need to take for your life to really up level. And it doesn't make it feel super intimidating or difficult. And what I will also say is the value of a coach, the value of a practitioner, even the value of a friend who is in your corner who's also supporting you in that process is also really helpful because sometimes, oftentimes we just get in our own way a lot. And so having a third party perspective of what's actually going on for you and how you can utilize this substance to really make a big difference in your life sometimes makes a world of difference in the path of healing and transformation. Yeah, yeah. That's so beautifully said. So I have a kind of a personal question for you,

and I'm curious if maybe this will land for other people. So there was one specific time that I tried to do more of a protocol type microdosing. So just to give you a little bit of context, my experience with psychedelics is that I started out in a party context, just kind of taking them for fun with friends. And I started realizing that I felt very connected to them, you know, and I would have these little downloads even in the middle of like just like a party setting with friends. And so it made me very curious. And I started looking more into assisted therapy type situations. And I've done a couple. I've done a ketamine assisted therapy type situations. And I've done a couple. I've done a ketamine assisted therapy.

So actually I've done a couple of those like assisted meditation ketamine sessions. Ketitation is what we like to call those. Love a ketitation, exactly. And I've also done more like high dose hero doses of psilocybin. I've also done a journey with psilocybin and MDMA. So just to kind of give youocybin. I've also done a journey with psilocybin and MDMA. So just to kind of give you the context. And so then when I started learning more about microdosing and I had a lot of friends living in LA that, you know, everybody is microdosing in LA. I feel like

everybody is what we call LA sober, where they're just like trying to get off alcohol and they're wanting to do mushrooms instead. And so I got connected with someone who got me a protocol and she sent me these pills. And I was like, okay, I'm going to do these microdosing. My first day, I felt them too intensely that I couldn't do work or anything. And then there was another time where I took them maybe like two days later.

And I almost felt like I struggled to even explain what it was. It was almost like my neural pathways were scrambled almost. I felt like I couldn't focus and there was too much going on in my brain and I was having a hard time connecting the dots almost. And if I'm being honest, it kind of freaked me out. And I never had that experience in all the other settings I'm talking about but it was in this specifically microdosing setting

and I'm wondering maybe it was the specific mushrooms I took or is that something with my brain? Have you ever heard of this happening? Good question. I love these types of questions because it's like, what's a good way to describe it? It's sort of like when newspaper folks have like the Dear Amy section and they're like, the Dear Person section, I'm like, this happened. So can you give me the secret to the universe? Exactly. So I'll kind of take a step back a little bit. So microdosing is really what we call sub-intoxicating dose level, meaning it's a dose that you can take where you can still navigate your everyday life, but you just feel slightly enhanced, right? A high dose, a therapeutic dose often has a set and setting that is ideal for it. And that's, I think, how you've done it in the past where you'll have a facilitator or you'll be in a group.

There's maybe a ritual that's provided. There's music. There's intention, right? So there's a context and a set and setting for it. What I'm hearing in your story is you were somewhere between those two. You were more than a microdose, but you were less than a very high dose. And you didn't have the container in which to contain the energy to direct it somewhere. And so probably what happened, I would imagine, is because the dose was just a little bit too high, it introduced a little bit too much chaos and confusion. Because what happens when we take a psychedelic, especially at higher doses, is it interrupts the default pattern of our existence. And the default pattern of our existence is often do, do, do, right?

Go, go, go, execute, execute, execute. And so when we take this psychedelic, it kind of pops us out of that. And if we don't have a really good container for it, then it can sometimes be more chaotic and more confusing than it needs to be. And so that's my sense of probably what happened with you is the set and setting in which you were taking that, what we would call a medi dose, a medium dose was not optimal. And so it ended up leading to more confusion than sort of productive insight. And so my perspective would be if that were to happen again, the advice that I would give you would be to find a comfortable seated position and just meditate for probably 20

to 30 minutes and just attune to your breath. Because if you're feeling that way, if you're feeling a little out of it and confused, that capacity to just meditate and drop in can often help to bring you back to center and make the rest of the experience a little bit more manageable overall. Thank you. That's really good advice. And I'm sure for people listening too, I have a lot, my audience is very curious about psychedelics because I've done a couple podcasts about it and I've been very open about my experience. I went through something very traumatic as a kid and so I've been taking everybody on a journey in the last couple years of my podcast of all the modalities that I've been doing to heal and one of them is

psychedelics. And so I think that's really helpful for people because I know I get a ton of questions about microdosing. So it's also, I was really excited to bring you on the podcast because I really wanted to just lay it all out, really make it easy and accessible for people. So another question that I get a lot is for people that are looking for a protocol to do microdosing, where would they turn to, especially if they're in places like Texas

where it's not as, let's say, legal. Yeah. So if you're in Austin, that would be a little different, but Dallas, Houston, and San Antonio, and most of the South and the West. What's interesting about psychedelics is they're not legal in Colorado. So when you had mentioned you moved to Colorado, I thought that was pretty cool because a good friend of mine who lives in Denver, he's a lawyer, he wrote a lot of the legislation for what's called the Natural Medicine Health Act. So Colorado has now legalized psychedelics, specifically mushrooms, ayahuasca, iboga, and San Pedro. So if you're in Colorado, you can legally microdose. That's no problem.

Pretty much everywhere else, it's illegal at this point in time. Oregon has legal psilocybin, but the way in which you have to microdose is not the way that most people actually do it. So typically the perspective that I give folks is, A, pick up my book. I wrote a book called Mastering Microdosing. So that gives a really detailed perspective and view into all things microdosing. And so if someone is listening to this and they're like, I really want to do a deeper dive into microdosing, they usually say, pick up the book or at least go to our website, thethirdwave.co, because we have guides, we have podcasts, we have a lot of educational resources. And included in that, we have a sourcing guide. And in that sourcing guide, we sort of provide you an orientation about if you want to do this,

how do you actually find the substances or the medicine to microdose with? Because the, I would say, fortunate truth is that although psychedelics are still highly illegal almost everywhere, just like cannabis, they're a schedule one substance federally in almost every state, they're illegal at this point in time. It's also very clear that the DEA and even other, let's say, law enforcement are not that interested in psychedelics. And so what's happened is this basically black market has really grown and developed and come above ground. And so you can now get access to micro doses of mushrooms. You can get chocolate bars, all these sorts of things just by searching online. Now, what you have to be very careful of is that it's a high quality source. And so I think that's what I would

emphasize for folks if they're at home listening to it. One way to control that is by growing your own mushrooms, right? So on third way, we have a mushroom grow kit. You can buy the grow kit, we'll send it to your house and you can grow your own mushrooms. That way, that's the best way to control for it. But another way could be to just find a website. And we have some listed in that sourcing guide that we have on Third Wave that is trustworthy. And that sells potentially supplements, psilocybin supplements or psilocybin chocolates. But again, you just have to be very careful that it is what they say it is because since it is an underground market, still there are folks who

will be like, yeah, we have mushrooms in our chocolate, but they'll put a synthetic analog in there. And in fact, there was just a news story this week that there's a microdosing chocolate bar that people took that led to vomiting and seizures because they didn't know what was in it and so it's really it's really really important that you know where your source is coming from that's why we have the sourcing guide and it's also why a couple years ago we started a nonprofit called the microdosing collective so a woman named Allie Shaper I don't know if you know Allie. She's a good friend of mine. Yeah, I've heard her on the podcast too. Oh, fantastic. Okay. I was going to introduce

you to you if you hadn't met yet because I'd like you to hit it off huge. So Allie and I started a nonprofit called the Microdosing Collective, which is focused on developing policies and regulation for adult use mushroom supplements, essentially, because it is so prominent and popular now. We're really like, we need to help create more consumer protection so folks can do this safely and effectively when and how they want. That's amazing. I didn't know that you did that with Ally Shaper. That's so cool. I don't know. I didn't know that you were involved in that. That's amazing. Ali and I started it in the end of 2021.

And then we had our launch party at the Petit Hermitage in WeHo, West Hollywood, or Beverly Hills, or whatever that is. Sometimes I get my LA geography confused in 2022. And now two months ago, we went to Sacramento and we talked to the governor's office in Sacramento. We talked to other senators and policymakers. So I think it'll still be a few years before we get something fully passed. But I'm really enthusiastic about our approach. I think it makes sense for most people because most folks, when they're microdosing, they don't want to have to be with a therapist or a coach every time. They just want to do it in the comfort of their own home like they would

a supplement. And so we really need to develop more policy and regulation that reflects that desire. Yeah. And how is that going, by the way? Is it looking like we're going to have more legalization? What's kind of been happening with all that? Interesting. So last week, there was some difficult news from the FDA. About MDMA, right? About MDMA, right. The substance that is farthest along clinical trials right now is MDMA, also known as ecstasy for PTSD specifically. And the clinical research on that is outstanding.

It's like three times as effective as conventional treatments for PTSD. However, the FDA has what's called an advisory committee. And that advisory committee lets them know you should approve this treatment or you should not approve this treatment. And they voted strongly to not approve MDMA as a treatment. And I won't go into all the details. That will be a full podcast in and of itself. That decision is not binding. The FDA will make their full decision in August. And we think there's about a 50-50 chance that they will get MDMA approved for PTSD. So if that does get approved, then by 2025, we'll see MDMA rolled out to treat PTSD in clinics across the United States.

If that does not get approved, it will be delayed. I don't know how long necessarily, but it will be delayed. And my philosophy is that psychedelics, when we take them, they sort of encourage what I call a mycelial mindset. And mycelium are like the underground aspects that connect all the mushroom spores, right? And so they encourage this mycelial mindset. And I would say crypto is part of that. Blockchain is part of that. Even what happened in the cannabis space where certain states legalized cannabis well before the federal government has ever touched it speaks to that.

And so I think what's likely going to happen with psychedelics is the vast majority of policy will be at a local and state level. So we've already seen a number of cities like Seattle, Detroit, and Oakland decriminalize plant medicines, meaning it's the lowest priority for law enforcement. And so personal use is, it's not legal necessarily, but no one's going to come after you if you take mushrooms or drink ayahuasca. And then as I mentioned, Oregon has legalized psilocybin and Colorado has legalized all plant medicine. So my expectation is that we'll see either California or Massachusetts go next from a state perspective. And that there will probably be a lot of states that legalize it before the FDA actually legalizes full psychedelics.

And I think that's probably just because the FDA is so corrupt and bought out by pharmaceutical companies. Exactly. And the approach of pharmaceutical companies, as we've already talked about in the podcast, is very different than what we do with psychedelics. Pharmaceutical companies, it's like, we want you to be on this pill for the rest of your life because we can make a lot of money from you as a lifetime consumer. With psychedelics, the intention is we want you to have this experience so you can really

heal and grow and you don't need to continue to be dependent on these drugs for the rest of your life. And so that approach is very different. And so that's the hard thing about psychedelics. Trying to fit in this old paradigm is really what they represent as an entirely new paradigm. And so my true belief is that we need a new paradigm to support psychedelics. Buckminster Fuller, who was a really well-known scientist and inventor in the 50s, 60s, 70s, he invented those geodesic domes and talked about spaceship earth. He talked about how there's no point in fixing a broken system. We need to create a new system that makes the old one obsolete.

I think that's the opportunity here with psychedelics is we really have to re-envision and reimagine what real care, what real mental health, what real healing transformation looks like. And for me, so much of that is about human relationships and being in community. And I think what psychedelics have taught me more than anything is the importance of healing in community, the importance of relationship to other humans, to nature, that that is really where the true medicine is. And psychedelics just help us to remember that oftentimes. That was so beautiful. I love the way that you put that. And what I was going to say is, just kind of piggyback on what you said about the FDA. I was so furious about this last week because it was all over my Instagram feed. I was seeing that with the MDMA piece. And my first thought was, who is paying off this advisory board?

Who are their sponsors? What pharmaceutical drug companies are in their back pockets? And we are at a very interesting time right now with all of this. I feel like all the corruption is really coming to light. I'm seeing this obviously in the food industry. We're also seeing it with pharmaceutical drugs. And it will be really interesting to see what happens in the next couple of years. I'm just praying that there's people on that advisory board that are seeing the long-term effects of this and

hoping that they vote in the right way. Because with the little amount of digging that I've done into this research with the MDMA, it's just absolutely incredible what they're doing for people. Like you said, they're helping them actually get past their traumas, not just numb them out for the rest of their life. They're actually helping them to address them and heal them so that they can really go on and live their lives normally again. Yeah. The clinical research is really profound with MDMA. I mean, conventional psychiatric treatments for PTSD only work about 20% of the time. What they found with MDMA-assisted psychotherapy is that it effectively healed 70% of people

who enrolled in the clinical trials. And on average, those individuals had had PTSD for 17 years. So these, and they're very intense cases. And the protocol is to do MDMA three times in 12 weeks, right? So three times in about three months, you have psychotherapy before and after. And then folks noticed, you know, or the science reflected that, wow, this really helps so many more people heal from PTSD than any other treatment we have available. And it's so different than any other treatment that's currently available that it's, I think,

really hard for the FDA to even grok and understand MDMA-assisted psychotherapy. Because the FDA, they cover food and drugs. They don't cover psychotherapy necessarily. And so what has been central to the efficacy of MDMA-assisted psychotherapy is also the psychotherapy. Well, and I can imagine a lot of them too are coming from the old school thinking that you mentioned very, very early on in the podcast of what your parents said, basically, where they believe that drugs are bad and they're illegal for a reason

and we shouldn't be taking them, they could harm our bodies. There's that very old school way of thinking that thankfully people like yourself, Michael Pollan, are really opening people's eyes. I mean, my dad, my dad last Christmas asked me if I would bring mushrooms home because he wanted to do a microdosing with me. And I was blown away because, you know, this is the same dad that when I was in high school, similar to you, found out I was smoking weed and drinking and was like, what? But yeah, so there's definitely, it's cool. There's definitely a changing of consciousness and more and more people are waking up to this and realizing. But there's also a lot of work to do, which I know you very much feel the heat of that.

There's a lot of work to do. And over the last nine years, I started Third Wave in 2015. I also started a legal psilocybin center called Synthesis in 2018, where we were doing legal psilocybin retreats in the Netherlands. And then a few years ago, we started something called the Psychedelic Coaching Institute. And so for the last few years, I focused a lot of my time, energy, and effort on training coaches, practitioners, clinicians, and how to work with psychedelics. Because I think now that we are where we are, and just to provide a little bit more context on that, 61% of Americans now support legal psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy. This was a research study that Berkeley carried out last year.

And the number of Americans who have taken a psychedelic has quadrupled in the last four years from 2019 to 2023. I think largely because of COVID and the mental health epidemic that resulted from the lockdowns, but also because there's a lot more research and there's been so much work done on desemitization. So the biggest gap to close now is we really need well-trained providers to support people through their healing and transformational process with psychedelics. I think the biggest risk as this continues to grow in popularity is that folks who are new to this work with a provider.

And that could be a retreat. It could be a clinic. It could be an individual, a therapist, or a coach. They work with a provider who is either not ethical, who has a lot of shadow around sexuality, who just doesn't do good work, don't really know what they're doing, just see this as the next opportunity and want to sort of hop on the bandwagon. And so it's really important that individuals who are new to this work with someone who really knows what they're doing. So for that reason, we've started training these practitioners

in what I call the five key elements, which is assessment. How do you assess individuals and how you work with them? Preparation. How do you prepare individuals to have a transformative experience? The facilitation itself. How do you facilitate a really magical experience? Integration. How do you help individuals integrate after a high dose experience? And then microdosing. How can microdosing support that and i think every provider really needs to master those five elements in order to provide ethical care for folks who are fairly new to this and are really looking for deep healing and transformation with with psychedelics that's amazing and if somebody wanted to work with one of your coaches did they just go to your

website yeah so we have a directory of providers right now. And so in that directory, we have retreats, clinics, therapists, and coaches. And so we really believe it's important that we provide a range of options for individuals because some folks will feel okay traveling to Mexico or Costa Rica or Jamaica or even Colorado now to go through a psychedelic retreat. Other folks, they really want to work within the medical system. And so currently ketamine is a legally available psychedelic, as you talked a little bit about with your own ketamine work. And then some folks really want the individual one-on-one attention

from like a therapist or a coach. And so if folks are like, I've been looking for a provider, where do I find a good one? Where do I find a good retreat or clinic or whatever that is? Just go to our website and we have all the providers listed there. And that's a great starting point to get someone going. Is it just me or is colostrum just totally taking the internet by storm? I mean, I'm so happy about it. And it's so interesting how certain things will just become a massive trend. I've been taking colostrum for probably

at least 10 years now or so. My mom got me on it. It's an ancient practice used for immune function. It really helps to strengthen and bolster the immune system. And I will say Armra colostrum has really taken the internet by storm. And for good reason, it is a really good high quality colostrum. I get so many DMs from you guys just specifically asking me if I use Armour colostrum. And yes, I do. I've been taking Armour specifically for almost a year now. I travel with it everywhere I go. I bring the little individual packets with me and I especially take it while I'm traveling because that's when we are most susceptible to getting sick. And you know what's really cool? There's actually a study that's been done comparing the effects of the flu vaccine and colostrum and colostrum performed better in protecting the body from the flu.

Isn't that wild? And this is a peer reviewed study posted in a very well-renowned medical journal. So what is colostrum? It is the first nutrition we receive in life and contains all the essential nutrients we need in order to thrive. Armra is a proprietary concentrate of bovine colostrum that harnesses these 200 plus living bioactive compounds to rebuild your immune barriers and fuel cellular health for a host of research backed benefits. Armour colostrum strengthens immunity. It ignites metabolism. It fortifies gut health. It helps activate hair growth and skin radiance. And I actually have seen all my little, I have all these baby hairs that have been growing since I started taking it and it helps to power fitness performance and recovery. And what's cool is we have worked out a special offer for you, my audience, my listeners,

who I absolutely adore. You're going to get 15% off your first order. So go to tryarmra.com slash realfoodology. That is T-R-Y-A-R-M-R-A.com slash realfoodology, or simply enter code realfoodology, and you're going to get 15% off. Again, that's tryarmra.com slash realfoodology. Armra is A-R-M-R-A. You know, we've talked about this a little bit, but I want to talk about it more concisely. Who would be the best candidates for microdosing? So we talked a little bit about how people maybe want to get off their pharmaceutical drugs. What is psilocybin really best for? Like, for example, for me with my anxiety, do you feel like microdosing would help somebody dealing with depression and anxiety? What are the best candidates for it? So when it comes to, there's two substances that are most common for folks to microdose.

Psilocybin mushrooms, which we've talked a lot about today, and LSD. And I actually, before this podcast, I took a microdose of LSD. LSD is my favorite microdose. And that's because I would say the core difference between psilocybin and LSD is LSD is more dopaminergenic, meaning more dopamine, right? So dopamine is tied to focus, attention, motivation, and even extroversion. And so typically if folks are, I would say, more cognitive, if they're looking for more of a creative push or impulse, then I typically recommend LSD as a microdose.

The challenge with LSD is that it's much harder to acquire, it's much harder to get because it's just not nearly as widely available as psilocybin mushrooms are. And so most folks have to work with mushrooms, right? And so I think mushrooms are great for beginners, great for folks who are quite new to this. Those who have anxiety, I would advise starting with psilocybin and not LSD because LSD is much more stimulating than psilocybin. Those who have depression have been unnecessarized or other psychiatric medications, I usually also advise to start with psilocybin mushrooms as a great starting point. And then anyone who's just generally interested, they're pretty new to psychedelics and they want to start exploring for the first time because psilocybin mushrooms are much easier to access, usually I say start there.

And the caveat here is I'm a big supplement junkie, so I take creatine, I take fish oil, I take lion's mane, I take rhodiola and ashwagandha, I take magnesium in the evening. So I love supplements. And so what a lot of folks are doing is they're combining psilocybin with things like lion's mane or rhodiola or ashwagandha or other herbs. And so typically if folks are like, no, I do want more focus and creativity and energy. I say, well, combine it with things like lion's mane or bacopa or longjack or other herbs that are more yang and yang meaning masculine, right? And if someone's like, oh no, I really want to do more inner work, more emotional work,

more sort of what I'd call feminine work, the feeling and the emotional body and the somatic body. I say, okay, maybe combine it with reishi or combine it with cacao or combine it with damiana. These are other herbs that are a bit, they're all legal and other herbs are a bit more soft and feminine. And so that's typically the perspective that I give for folks. But I know most of the folks who are listening to this are quite new at it. So typically, the perspective I give is just start with mushrooms. Start with 100 milligrams of psilocybin mushrooms to microdose and go from there and see how that goes. And then as you get deeper and deeper into the space, if you want to start to experiment and try LSD or try other psychedelics, you can do that. But starting with 100 milligrams of psilocybin every other day is usually the ideal starting point for most. Just the way that my brain works is that whenever there's something new that we've just really started researching and science has started publishing about and

we've really started diving into, I worry, is there a concern that down the line we're going to be like, oh shoot, we should not have been messing so much with our neuroplasticity in our brain. Or, oh, we didn't realize that it was doing X, Y, and Z to our brains. And while we have all these amazing positive effects, there's also this concern here. Do you have any concerns for that? Well, I think the larger point here is that we're still all guinea pigs in this to some degree, right? That we know we have a lot of longitudinal data, even from ancient times about high dose psychedelic use. We know that the occasional high dose when done in a safe setting is very healthy. What we don't know right now is the sort of pros and cons of taking low doses of psychedelics consistently for a long period of time. And

so usually what I advise folks, and this is what I do myself, is I will go through protocols where for a month or two months or three months, I'll microdose every other day or two times a week or whatever it is. Then I'll also go through phases and times where I don't microdose at all. I take a month off or I take two months off or I take three months off, no problem at all. So I think just having that ability to cycle, having variability mitigates almost all of the risk when it comes to microdosing. I'm not as concerned about are we doing funky things to our brains, partly just because I think there's this thing called the Lindy effect, which I won't go too deep into, but essentially the Lindy effect means that the longer an idea or technology has been

around, the longer it will be around. And so for me, there's something deeply important. And also there's a deep wisdom in the fact that we've been using psychedelics really for thousands, if not tens of thousands of years. And so when I think about it as an ally, I don't really worry that there's too much neuroplasticity necessarily. What I would more worry about is that people become attached or dependent on the microdose and they feel like they have to continue to take it every day and take more of it in order to feel the same way. That is the perspective that we want to step out of. And I think as long as we are out of that perspective and really looking at it as a catalyst for our own growth and not

something that we need to rely upon, then I don't think there's too much to be worried about. I'll say to speak on that, with my own personal experience, I've had moments in my life where I've just intuitively been like, I'm good. It's actually not really working for me right now. I've had times where I was really deep in the work and the mushrooms were really helping me a lot. I was getting a lot of downloads and really feeling like I was getting a lot from it. And then I would just hit a point where I would take them one day

and I'd be like, oh, no, I'm good right now. I've kind of like worked through what I needed to in the moment. I kind of just need to take a break. And so I almost feel like there's this like built in, and maybe that's just my own personal experience, but I almost feel like there's almost this built in, like the mushrooms will kind of tell you when you've done enough for the moment. And then we'll kind of tell you again when you feel called to do more of the work again. And for folks who have never done psychedelics, that sounds a bit insane, of course. That's so true. As many of us know, so much of the art of psychedelic healing is the remembrance of our intuition and the capacity to tune back into that intuition. And so you're so on point in that there will be moments and times and months and weeks when

microdosing will not be aligned. And you'll have that as sort of a hit or a download or an insight. And it's really important to honor that. There'll be other points in time. And I noticed this is especially for me that if I'm in more depressive states, like if I'm just having a hard week or a hard month for whatever reason, microdosing is such a key ally in that process. It can really help me to get out of a rut

and just kind of get my mindset back in a healthy place. But if I'm already in a really good place, I might say, I'm good with microdosing for now. Or I might say on a weekend day, I might go for a hike and take a microdose, a hiker dose, with the intention of kind of creating and brainstorming and things like that. So there are fun ways in which we can still create and play with it. But you're right on

point that it's so important to listen to our intuition and what our body is telling us in that moment about whether or not continuing to microdose is aligned or whether it's actually better just to take some time off. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. So this question actually comes from a friend's experience recently. So I was just recently on a trip and we had brought some mushrooms along with us and had talked about doing them one day for fun. And a girlfriend of mine said, you know, what's really interesting is she said, I'm kind of struggling with the mushrooms right now because I have a great time in the moment. And then she's almost having like a hangover the next day from it. What's happening there? My initial hit is detoxification, right? And I would have to know a lot more about your friend to kind of get a sense of what and how and why. But typically, if folks are feeling really off the next day from a high-dose psychedelic experience, it could be just that there was a lot of energy that was released and there could be a detoxification

that the body is going through. So typically what I advise folks is to take NAC, N-A-C, which is a really great supplement that you can take before you go to bed, which helps with the detoxification process. It could also be, this is the case sometimes that sometimes when folks do psychedelics like mushrooms, it keeps them up much later

and throws off their sleep schedule. So if they're used to going to bed at 10 p.m. and getting up at 6 or 7, and all of a sudden they do a mushroom trip and they're up till 2 a.m., the next day that could have an impact on them because their sleep schedule is totally thrown off and they're just feeling a little off from it. So those are typically the two most common things is a detoxification process or just not great sleep that night because there's so much going on. And so typically what I advise is take NAC, take magnesium. And if it's still happening and you're getting a good night of sleep and maybe mushrooms just aren't for you, maybe there's

something with their individual biochemistry that's happening because most folks don't feel hangover after the next day of psilocybin. Most folks feel way better. They felt the... Yeah, well, that's why I wanted to ask you because I'd never heard that before. I'm curious if there's some sort of like depletion of dopamine and serotonin happening,

like we know what happens with MDMA. And I wonder if maybe some people have a little bit of like a down the next day because they've released so much of that dopamine and serotonin. That could be the case as well, right? It's not as prominent in the psilocybin space as it is with MDMA, but I think that would also speak to the importance of the next morning then to hydrate well, right? With salts, mineral salts with hydration, and then potentially to take- Like a 5-HTP or-

Like a 5-HTP or something like that, that's just going to help to sort of restore the natural brain chemistry. Cool. Yeah, I just wanted to ask you about that because I was curious, your perspective. So we're wrapping up soon and I just wanted to give you an opportunity if there's something that you really wanted to talk about that we didn't address. I think we covered it. I mentioned our training program for practitioners. That's the only thing that I would like come back and double down on that if anyone is listening to this who, you know, you already started the psychedelic path a little bit, but you really want to become more involved with it.

Whether that's as a coach or practitioner or therapist or just support folks who are moving through this. We have cohorts that start every so often and folks can reach out to us if they're interested in learning more about that. And then besides that, I would say for folks who are brand new to this and starting the journey, just to go on the third wave and to check out our newsletter, to check out our podcast, to go through our guides, just to click around. We also have a free private community that folks can get access to. You can download our app from the App Store. And so I think just starting to learn and educate oneself

if folks are interested in going deeper into this, the intention and why I even built Third Wave in the first place was to support that process. And so I would just encourage folks if they do have more questions to go through that and then reach out to me if they need anything. And I'm on Instagram and Twitter at PaulAustin3W and I'm pretty responsive on both

of those platforms. Amazing. So I want to ask you a personal question that I ask all my guests. What are your health non-negotiables? These are things that no matter what, no matter how crazy your day gets, these are your non-negotiables to take care of your own health i mean for me and what's been the case for years is meditation right at least 15 15 minutes is my minimum for a daily practice preferably 20 if not 30 minutes of meditation in the morning is is one of my non-negotiables when it comes to health and i would say the the other non-negotiable when it comes to health is morning journaling. Just having that time and that space to journal from a stream of consciousness perspective,

just to get things out and on paper. I noticed that if I don't do that for a certain period of time, I'll just have a lot of thoughts and rumination that kind of build up in my head. So meditation and journaling are for me the two non-negotiables. I travel a lot at this point in time. I'm very nomadic. So sometimes my sleep schedule gets a little off or I eat very clean and healthy, but sometimes I just don't eat as much,

which is also fine because sometimes I fast. But the meditation and journaling for me are things that I have to do every day or else I quickly sort of fall into a more like, not necessarily great mental health place. I love that. Those are both really helpful with mental health.

I do that a lot as well. Well, thank you so much for coming on. I just want to say that I'm so grateful for the work that you're doing. I think you're really helping a lot of people and you're helping people navigate something. It's really just the wild, wild west right now. People need resources and help with it.

And I love that you have a coaching program. It's really beneficial for a lot of people, I'm sure. So I just want to honor you for what you're doing. And also, please plug your book. Well, I guess you already did it. You've already said what you'd like to do. Yeah, Mastery Microdosing. And just go to thethirdwave.co.

And then I'm on Instagram and Twitter at paulawson3w. And I encourage folks to reach out and say hi, because I really love to hear from folks who listen to podcasts. It's a nice way. I do this work to connect with more humans at the end of the day and to help more humans. And so any opportunity I get to meet folks and say hi, I really appreciate it. Yeah, that's amazing. Well, please go reach out to him, guys, and go give him a follow and check out his website. And I hope you enjoyed the episode today. Thanks so much, Paul. Thank you, Courtney.

Thank you so much for listening to The Real Foodology Podcast. This is a Wellness Loud production produced by Drake Peterson and mixed by Mike Fry. Theme song is by Georgie. You can watch the full video version of this podcast inside the Spotify app or on YouTube. As always, you can leave us a voicemail by clicking the link in our bio. And if you like this episode, please rate and review on your podcast app. For more shows by my team, go to wellnessloud.com. See you next time. The content of this show is for educational and informational purposes only. It is not a substitute for individual medical and mental health advice and doesn't constitute

a provider patient relationship. I am a nutritionist, but I am not your nutritionist. As always, talk to your doctor or your health team first.