Realfoodology - Rethinking Vaccines: Informed Consent, Censorship, and Medical Transparency | Dr. Joel Warsh

Episode Date: June 17, 2025

255: On today’s episode of the Realfoodology Podcast, I sit down with returning guest Dr. Joel Warsh - aka Dr. Joel Gator on Instagram - to talk about his new book Between A Shot and A Hard Place. I’ve been doing more episodes on vaccines lately, and before you tune out, I just want to say: this is not an anti-vax conversation. It’s about asking questions. Dr. Joel is a pediatrician who started digging into the research for his book and was shocked by how little we actually know. We talked about the lack of liability in vaccine development, the censorship around this topic, and how we can create space for real, open dialogue. I hope you’ll listen with an open mind. Topics Discussed → Why Dr. Joel wrote Between A Shot and A Hard Place → Vaccine propaganda, censorship, and open dialogue → The 1986 Vaccine Injury Liability Act → Autism, risk factors, and vaccine hesitancy → Informed consent and questioning medical norms Sponsored By: → Timeline | They’re offering my audience a 20% discount on all first-time purchases! Use code REALFOODOLOGY at checkout at timeline.com/REALFOODOLOGYGUMMIES → LMNT | Get a free 8-count Sample Pack of LMNT’s most popular drink mix flavors with any purchase at drinklmnt.com/realfoodology. → Qualia | Go to qualialife.com/REALFOODOLOGY for up to 50% off your purchase and use code REALFOODOLOGY for an additional 15%.  → MANUKORA | Go to Manukora.com/REALFOODOLOGY to get $25 off the Starter Kit, which comes with an MGO 850+ Manuka Honey jar, 5 honey travel sticks, a wooden spoon, and a guidebook!  → Paleovalley | Save at 15% at paleovalley.com/realfoodology and use code REALFOODOLOGY → Jaspr | Get $400 off with code REALFOODOLOGY and link is jaspr.co/realfoodology Timestamps:  → 00:00:00 - Introduction  → 00:04:10 - “Between A Shot and A Hard Place“ and Vaccine Propaganda  → 00:06:37 - Vaccine Literature and Potential Unknown Risks → 00:09:15 - Censorship of Vaccine Discussions → 00:18:11 - Autism and the Andrew Wakefield Study → 00:22:56 - Vaccine Liability Act → 00:26:13 - Side effects of pharmaceutical interventions → 00:32:16 - Encouraging Critical Thinking in Medicine → 00:34:59 - Rethinking Doctor Training Regarding Vaccines → 00:39:46 - Viewing Vaccines From a Parent’s Perspective → 00:43:03 - Navigating Vaccine Hesitancy, Patient Transparency, and Autism Statistics → 00:46:03 - The Impact of Autism on Families → 00:49:51 - Autism in  Unvaccinated Children → 00:54:11 - What Surprised Dr. Joel Most in His Research → 00:59:56 - Modern Health Concerns and Life Expectancies → 01:02:10 - Rising Diagnoses and the Role of Informed Consent → 01:08:18 - Challenges in U.S. Research Funding → 01:12:23 - RFK Jr.’s Involvement → 01:15:53 - HPV and the Gardasil Vaccine → 01:19:59 - Advice for Parents Seeking Vaccine Clarity → 01:29:39 - The Importance of Asking Questions → 01:32:07 - Where to find Dr. Joel Warsh Show Links: → Toxins, Over-Sanitizing + Children’s Health | Dr. Joel Warsh Check Out Dr. Joel Warsh: → Between A Shot and A Hard Place → Instagram → X Check Out Courtney:  → LEAVE US A VOICE MESSAGE → Check Out My new FREE Grocery Guide! → @realfoodology → www.realfoodology.com → My Immune Supplement by 2x4 → Air Dr Air Purifier → AquaTru Water Filter → EWG Tap Water Database Produced By: Drake Peterson

On today's episode of the Real Foodology podcast. We should assume that we can make things better, but who is making vaccine companies make vaccines better when they don't have any liability? They have no reason to study it. They have no reason to improve them. They have no reason to make them safer. We have to make them do that. Hello, friends.

Welcome back to another episode of the Real Foodology podcast. I'm your host, Courtney Swan, and today's episode is a return guest. I actually sat down with Dr. Joel Warsh, also known as Dr. Joel Gator on Instagram. I have been admittedly doing more episodes recently on vaccines. And before you turn this off, I just want to encourage you to listen to a different perspective that I haven't had on the podcast actually yet. And the conversation of vaccines is so divisive right now.

You're not allowed to ask questions at all and you have to be pro-vaccine. And if you ask a single question, then you're automatically put in this box of anti-vaccine. Where can we bridge that gap and meet in the middle, right? And learn to just as humans have a conversation and maybe have a little humility over the fact that the science isn't fully settled yet. And this is what I really loved about Joel and his new book that's coming out. He started out on a quest because he's a pediatrician and he wanted to be able to know what the science says. And as he started writing the book and

digging into more of the research, he was actually very shocked to find out that we just actually don't have a ton of research at all. Largely this discussion was how can we start having more conversations around this and how can we actually get the studies done so that we can know definitively what is actually going on. We had an amazing conversation about that. We talked a lot about his book. I think his book is amazing. Listen to the end of the episode and you can find out more information about how you can find it. Any support that you can show the show right now if you're loving it and you're loving this episode, it would mean a lot to me and I just appreciate you so much and thank you

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Joel, thank you so much for coming back on to the Real Foodology podcast. Thanks for having me on. It's good to do it in person. I think last time was probably online. Yeah, mostly everything was online. Yeah. Yeah. Last time we chatted, we did zoom and I'm really making it an effort now to just do everything in person because I think it's so much better. Way better. A lot more travel, but better. I know. I'm a little exhausted by the travel. We were actually talking about that before we started recording.

You and I are both just traveling nonstop for podcasts right now, and it's amazing. It's super fun and really exciting, but it is exhausting too. It is. Well, Joel, okay. You have a book coming out soon, and I want to talk about it. It's called Between a Shot and a Hard Place. If you wanna tell everybody a little bit about why you wrote it.

So I'm a pediatrician, and I practice integrative medicine in my office. And I have been really frustrated with the regular system and medications for everything, really short visits. And as I've gone through my practice, I realized that there are so many people that are interested in integrative medicine, but the one topic that people want to talk to me about

all the time is vaccines. It's the thing I get most questions about in the office, the thing that I get most questions about online, and we could never talk about it. And until recently, I didn't speak about it at all. And I think over the last year or two, things have really changed and people are much more interested

in discussing everything. Certainly the social media landscape has changed to where vaccines are not censored like they used to be. And I think it's really important. I think we need to have conversations. And during the pandemic, I got really frustrated. I got really frustrated with the censorship. I got really frustrated with what I felt was propaganda around

things like safe and effective as opposed to having real discussions about risks versus benefits. And I decided that I wanted to write out what I knew and learn as much as I can about vaccines to give people information. I don't feel like there really are any books out there that write out what I knew and learn as much as I can about vaccines to give people information. I don't feel like there really are any books out there that are unbiased. Everything has a clear narrative and a clear side. It's like pro-vaccine versus anti-vaccine. And I really wanted something that looked at both sides and I wanted to really bring out

what I discuss in the office. And for me, my philosophy in general is inform and don't force anybody to do anything and just provide information so people can make the best decisions for them. I don't force anything in my office. We have people that do all the regular vaccines and the regular schedules.

Some people do a slow schedule, some people don't do it. And I think parents want that kind of information and And they don't want to be told what to do. They want to be provided the landscapes they can figure out what makes sense for them. Yeah. And it's really cool. It's interesting because you and I were talking about this before we started recording. And I just want to reiterate that that really is your stance. And the only reason I'm saying that is that I see sometimes online where people go, oh yeah, that's just like what doctors say, but they're really pushing a narrative

like one way or the other. And you genuinely are just allowing parents to figure out what they want to do. And I actually even asked you, I said, okay, because of, you know, the information that you're putting out there, the stuff that you put in your book, the things, the conversations that you have in your practice, do the majority of your parents end up not vaccinating?

And what did you say? I would say that's not true. I mean, I think the majority do vaccinate. The majority go on a slower schedule at my practice, but they mostly do it. And I think that is not unreasonable if you're wanting to do something, but you just don't want to do all of them at the same time. The problem with the vaccine literature is there are so many holes in the research

and we want to be making risk benefit decisions. We wanna decide how much is this gonna help us versus what are our risks? And we have a pretty good idea about the diseases. We have a pretty good idea about our risks from the diseases. We have a pretty good idea about our risks from the diseases. We have a pretty good idea of how well the vaccines work, but we don't really have a great idea of the risks from the vaccines

and the side effects and the long-term complications. And so I think that makes it really difficult because we're missing a very important piece of information. But as a parent, you don't have a crystal ball. You have to make a decision based on what you know. And I feel like we have to get that information and to get it, we have to have conversations. And vaccines are in the shadows right now.

The conversation's in the shadows. The word has been censored. We can't talk about it. Can't talk about vaccine reactions. But during COVID, some people had reactions themselves and they realized that, okay, well, if I had a reaction to the COVID vaccine, what happens with my kids?

Oh, I've heard about autism. How is that related to vaccines? We're told it's not related, but then I have a friend that thinks that it is. We have a lot of conversations like that. And to get to the truth and what's best for our kids, we have to have conversations and we have to be open to examining the information that we have and have conversations and we have to be open to examining the information

that we have and asking tough questions and trying to move forward. Not necessarily to stop people from vaccinating, but we wanna do it in the safest possible way. We don't wanna harm kids if a vaccine is causing an issue. Don't we wanna know that? So that way we can figure out why, what ingredient in there,

maybe we can take out that ingredient, maybe we can make it safer. We've done that before, but it doesn't seem like we're doing it anymore because the vaccine manufacturers don't have liability. And who's pushing back to look at these things? This is the problem that I have about this entire conversation is exactly what you just said. This has become a no-no conversation. We all watched what happened to Jenny McCarthy and I think it was the 90s or the early 2000s somewhere on there where she just

said, I think this happened with my son. And I mean, she got annihilated. And then ever since then it was like everybody, it was like society just went, okay, we're just like not going to talk about that and we're not going to touch it. And then we saw during COVID again, same thing. I was like, you couldn't even have a conversation. Like I remember I had a really good friend who had a severe vaccine injury

and her cardiologist told her that it was from the COVID vaccine. She got pericarditis, which is inflammation around the sack of the heart. And her cardiologist had a sit down conversation with her and said, you cannot get any more of these because it actually might kill you. And this was from her cardiologist.

And then I would go online and I would try to share this story and my stories were getting deleted. I was getting censored. I was so censored for like three years on Instagram just because I was trying to share my friend's story. That was it. And so this is the problem that I have about this is that why do we have these certain off like it's like these certain subjects where it's just like, oh, no, no, no, you can't even talk about it. You can't even ask any questions because God forbid you ask a question these certain off, like it's like these certain subjects where it's just like, oh, no, no, no, you can't even talk about it. You can't even ask any questions

because God forbid you ask a question and you sow any sort of doubt whatsoever, then that is just like so dangerous. Like I would love to know your thoughts about when we were watching RFK during his, what do they call it? When they were trying to confirm him. And I mean, they were all just standing up there

like Bernie Sanders and, you know, Elizabeth Warren were all like, the science is settled. We know for sure that it doesn't cause autism. I mean, it was honestly truly wild to watch because like you just said, why are we not just for the health of the kids sitting down and going, okay, maybe we've gotten a couple things wrong. We're not saying that every single thing is wrong and every single thing in all of his vaccines are harming kids,

but maybe we are giving too many. You look at the amount that I got in 1984 versus if I have a kid tomorrow and they go on the schedule and it's up to like 78 doses now and I got like five, why are we not going, hmm, maybe that is like a problem and we should all be able to look at it as a society and let scientists and everybody figure it out. Yeah, I mean, it's a big question. There's a lot there.

I think going back to like vaccines are so ingrained in medicine and it's almost like they're a god or they're some like heavenly being that they're like perfect and they never have a problem. And it's such a weird discourse around vaccines where anybody that talks about it, you're promoting hesitancy and you're stopping people from getting vaccines and you're going to kill kids if you talk about this. And so we just want to promote only the most positive, perfect things. And we know that happened during the pandemic because Mark Zuckerberg said it specifically

after he said that they were censoring, were pushing him to censor true information because it promoted hesitancy. And people are starting to see that. They saw during the pandemic safe and effective instead of saying what is accurate, which is based on the research that we've seen, the benefits seem to outweigh the short-term risks.

We don't know anything about long-term risks, but it seems like it decreases mortality and severe disease. So we're recommending it based on that. We don't know anything about long-term risks, but we can't because it hasn't been long-term. So that's what we recommend. Like that is honesty. We didn't get that.

Yeah. We got just do it. And that seems to be the way that medicine has moved over the last 20 or 30 years, just repeating these kinds of phrases over and over again, without really backing it up or without continuing to get evidence. It's just, I don't know, it just keeps big push on us. And again, you say like something like autism, the research is settled. You look at the research on autism, it's definitely not settled.

It doesn't make any sense. When I was going through the research, and I'm an integrative doctor, when I went through medicine and training, I was told the science was settled. That's what I knew. I didn't look into it myself, because why would you? And until I even did the research for the book, I didn't realize what the research actually shows. And when you go through it, you're shocked. You're like, what am I missing? I was so surprised that we didn't have information. I thought we'd have huge studies.

I assumed when I was gonna write that chapter, it was gonna be in most of the great studies that show why vaccines don't cause autism. And then, you know, maybe there is some other research to show that maybe they're related or maybe, you know, we've missed something and things are biased. So I kind of show both sides.

But there actually isn't really anything on vaccines and autism. The only information that we do actually have is on MMR and on thimerosal, which is the mercury component of vaccines, which isn't even in vaccines anymore other than the multi-dose flu. So to say that we know that vaccines don't cause autism doesn't make any sense. You can't say that vaccines do cause autism because you would need research for that. But we haven't done studies on vaccinated versus unvaccinated kids. Even the MMR studies, generally, they're getting their other vaccines. So they're getting the normal vaccines plus

MMR or no MMR. And we get a whole bunch of vaccines before you get MMR. You get MMR at one, but you get the DTaP, you get RSV, you get rotavirus, you get pneumococcus, you get hemophilus, you get hepatitis B, you get all these vaccines in the first year and there aren't studies on that. So how can you say that vaccines don't cause autism based on that? You can't say anything. You could just say, we don't have anything to show that vaccines cause autism. That's why they say it. It's circular thinking.

We don't have evidence that it does, so therefore it doesn't. Which isn't the way that science is done. You have to actually do the research. And I have a master's in epidemiology, so I have done health research in the past. I've done literature reviews. I have a pretty good understanding of how to do it.

And for that chapter, especially, I mean, everything is evidence-based, but for that chapter, especially because of what I'm saying, I wrote out everything. I wrote every single step, every single study. I went through it. I showed all of what I found. And it's, unless I'm missing something, which I don't think I am because I read all sorts of books, I read Paul Offit's book and Peter Hotez's book. They don't have anything else, anything different.

They're basing that vaccines don't cause autism on the fact that these studies say that, but they don't show that question. They don't talk about vaccines. They talk about MMR only. As you all know, I am currently on a fertility journey as I'm hoping to be pregnant by the end of this year. So aging is something that has really been on my mind recently. And I wanted to talk about this supplement that I really love from Qualia called senolytic. It's the first of its kind formula designed to help your body naturally

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comes with an MGO 850 plus Manuka honey jar plus five honey travel sticks, which are my favorite, a wooden spoon and a guidebook. That's ManuCora, M-A-N-U-K-O-R-A dot com slash realfoodology to save 31 percent plus $25 worth of free gifts. That's so interesting. And the MMR one is actually, if I remember correctly, the one that that a lot of parents are saying that they see a significant change in their children neurologically after they get it. Right. Is that the one?

So parents definitely say that the concern around MMR most likely started around Andrew Wakefield's study, and that was in the late 1990s, early 2000s, where he related, possibly, that the MMR might have something to do with autism, and things kind of spiraled from there. And so I think that's why we see some research around MMR, because they were trying to debunk what he had said at that time. But that is the majority of the research that we have. And that doesn't mean that vaccines don't cause autism

because other vaccines could cause autism or they could be at least related or associated with it. I don't know, I'm not saying that they are. I'm just saying it's a ridiculous thing to say that based on the information that we have. And when RFK and other people say these things, they know that too. They have to know it. They've looked at the research for years. I would have been one of those doctors saying, no, you're crazy.

What are you talking about? Vaccines don't cause autism. We know this. It's settled. And that's why they're saying that because they are expressing, we need more information. We need more data. And I've seen depositions where they talk to doctors and they say, well, does hepatitis B vaccine cause autism? No, it doesn't. Does polio vaccine cause autism?

No, it doesn't. Do you have any evidence for that? I don't have any evidence for that. They say it in deposition. See, this is exactly, this is what's so crazy to me. And then there's all this resistance when we have people like RFK Jr. saying, I just want to do the tests to know definitively if it does or doesn't.

Because that's what all of us are saying. All of us are sitting here going, we just don't actually know. Can we please find out? We would love to find out. We would love to have the actual studies because then we can end this debate. Like this is what's so crazy to me is that science is always changing. And this is how you move forward with science. You have a theory, you have a hypothesis, and then you test it.

I mean, this is like grade one science that we learned as kids. Right? Exactly. And it's not science just to say it's settled. That's ridiculous. Especially when you have. Autism rates going up like they are, they're skyrocketing, and you have parent after parent after parent saying the exact same thing. These are parents that are not anti-vaccine. This is a parent who took their kid to get a vaccine and then they swear that their kid was normal quote unquote one day and then had a bad reaction the next day and then had

what they call autism after that. That's important information. It doesn't mean it's right. Just because you get a vaccine this morning and have a heart attack this afternoon doesn't mean it's because of the vaccine. But if hundreds or thousands of people get a vaccine this morning

and all have a heart attack this afternoon, you really should look into that as a possible cause. And, you know, these aren't anti-vax pairs. These are pairs that went to get vaccines. They think that. That's important and valuable information. And there are more and more parents saying the exact same thing. We should listen to that.

Maybe there is a certain genetics or a certain makeup or certain situation or a certain ingredient that's contributing to autism or chronic disease or other things. We should look into that. And if we do the proper studies and we don't find it, disease or other things, we should look into that. And if we do the proper studies and we don't find it and you can be sure that if we do a huge clinical trial on vaccinated versus unvaccinated kids and they don't find it increases your risk of autism, that's going to be front page news of the New York Times. But that's the information that parents want to feel comfortable to do it. Right now, medicine doesn't want to talk about it and they are creating vaccine hesitancy. That is

what's happening. We have the lowest confidence in medicine that we've ever had. It used to be above 70%. This is in like 2000. In most of the studies now, it's under 40%. In a lot of studies, people just don't trust doctors anymore. People are not getting vaccines. They are. We have the highest rates of exemptions. We have the highest rates of kids that are unvaccinated. We have the highest rates of kids that are not fully vaccinated. And that is because people don't trust medicine and they don't trust doctors anymore because they don't want to have these conversations. If you want people to trust it, then you have to listen to what their concerns are.

Look at where the holes in the research are. Try to get that research. And if you don't find a problem, great. Then that's the research that they want to feel comfortable. You don't silence it and say, we don't need it, everything's perfect. We don't have the best vaccines that we were ever going to have in the history of humanity. We want to have better vaccines and safer vaccines and healthier kids. And there's nothing wrong with that.

We should assume that we can make things better. But who is making vaccine companies make vaccines better when they don't have any liability? They have no reason to study it. They have no reason to improve them. They have no reason to make them safer. We have to make them do that. Yeah.

Well, let's talk about that because I talked about this on another podcast, but for those that haven't listened to the one with Bob Sears, there was a Vaccine Li liability act that was put into place in 1986, right? Correct. Which essentially what that means is that if your child is harmed by a vaccine, the pharmaceutical companies are actually not held liable and you can't sue them.

Correct. So it's very, very limited. Basically, you can't sue the pharmaceutical companies for any sort of injury that comes from their products. In the early 80s, there were more and more lawsuits, mostly around the original DTP vaccine, diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, concerns mostly around neurological issues, encephalitis, and multiple companies left the market. There were so many lawsuits that they were concerned they were all going to go bankrupt. And so the decision at that time was we don't, we still want vaccines.

We don't want all these companies to go out of business. So we're going to give them liability protection to stabilize the market. And so they did that. That's what they did in 1986 and, you know, makes some sense, I guess. But the problem is in a capitalist market, the main thing that stops you from creating crappy products and the main thing that makes you make them better is lawsuits. It's making sure that they're safe. And if you're getting sued, then you say,

OK, I better make them better so I don't get sued. But with vaccines, we don't have that. So there's no incentive for them to make them better. Their incentive is find a product that we need or that we want or that somebody wants, get it out as quickly as you can, get it on the childhood schedule, and then you make billions and billions of dollars. Now, not everything about vaccines is bad, right? I mean, we could use more vaccines to protect against diseases. That's a good thing. But the question is at what cost? And when a company

doesn't have any liability, they have no reason to make sure something is safe. They just have every reason to get that product onto the market and they certainly have no reason once it's on the market to reevaluate it, to see if they can make it safer, to reformulate it, to look at the ingredients, to talk about it, to study it. We have to do that. Well, we have to change the rules

and we have to give them maybe some limited liability. I don't know, we don't want them to all go out of business either. Maybe some people do, probably some limited liability. I don't know. We don't want them to all go out of business either. Maybe some people do, probably some people listening to this do, but. I mean, realistically. We need pharmaceuticals too. You know, it's like there's a balance.

Right, we need pharmaceuticals. And it's not, they don't just make vaccines, these companies. But even with vaccines, most people get vaccinated, right? Very few people don't get vaccinated. It's like 99% of kids get vaccines. So it's a pretty big percentage. So the vast majority of people do have some belief in this program, but they're just,

I think the belief is wavering right now. I think they're very concerned because they feel like profits are being put above health. And they're not seeing a discussion around making them better, making them safer. How are these related to problems? How can we improve those issues? It's really just more and more and more.

And that's what we're seeing. The vaccine schedule has exploded and we have a lot of vaccines and that scares parents. When you have to go in on a given day and give your kid four or five vaccines, that's scary for a parent. Doesn't mean that you shouldn't, but it's scary. And if we can't talk about it, then people just don't do it.

Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, it's understandably scary because with every pharmaceutical intervention, there will be side effects for some people. It just is plain and simple. And this is another thing that I would love to see tested, and you had kind of briefly mentioned this this earlier is like certain genetic mutations. Everyone on this planet is born with some sort of genetic mutation. It's just as like how we're made up. Like

I have the MTHFR gene, for example, which is a very common one. Well, maybe if your methylated pathways are not working correctly, maybe there's something there where if you get too many vaccines and you get the aluminum or and obviously these are all just theories. But my point is that we need to understand that because what would cause one person to have an effect and then someone else not have an effect and be totally fine and have no side effects from it. And that's something that we need to know, because maybe there's a way

that we can support the detoxification pathways or whatever it is. Or they avoid that one. Right. How is that controversial? Right. Exactly. We can put aside what we don't know for a second, but we certainly know that there are reactions to vaccines. That's not controversial or pseudoscience or woo-woo. I mean, there are vaccine reactions that people have.

They have anaphylaxis, they get Guillain-Barre syndrome, they get seizures. There are things that can happen, not super commonly, but they happen, right? So we know that. Wouldn't we want to try to decrease those risks if we can? People ask me all the time, like, what should I do for detoxification? How do I know if I'm going to have a risk? Where is the big study looking at all of the genetics? What kind of supplements we could give or herbs or other things to decrease risk or increase detoxification. Why don't we know that we're

giving kids more and more vaccines, but we're not able to discuss how we can do that in the safest possible way. Wouldn't parents be more comfortable if you were like, hey, if you take vitamin D and vitamin C and you do this panel and it shows that you have a low risk for a reaction, then, you, then go ahead and do the regular schedule. But if you have this and this marker, then maybe this is the kid that should go on a slower schedule. It doesn't mean they don't do it,

but maybe they're just higher risk. Like that's not, ooh. The problem is that there's not an incentive for that because then what would end up happening is that then we would have certain kids buy the schedule that like wouldn't be required to get everything. And then that's less money for the pharmaceutical companies. Like, let's just like...

Yeah, and it becomes complicated. Yeah. And then you inherently mentioned that there are potentially some risks. And again, we don't want any sort of hesitancy. So we don't want to even mention that there could potentially be risks. But people are getting savvy to that. And that's not good enough, especially as you added more and more vaccines. The known risks, severe risks are not that great. But if you add more and more vaccines, it compounds.

And if you get one vaccine with a really low risk, okay, pretty low risk. But if you do 30 or 40 shots over a couple of years, then even though it's a low risk, these things add up. And how do these things affect each other? How does that compounding amounts of the metals and other things that you're putting into your body, how does that affect you? Especially for someone who maybe doesn't detoxify well, maybe for the regular average kid, they can get things out and it doesn't build up, but maybe some do. And maybe that's why we're seeing increase in reactions from some kids because you do more.

And you're compounding. You're compounding the issue. These are not crazy questions to ask. I don't know the answers, but the point is, nobody is talking about it and nobody's looking at it. And parents are worried about these things, and we could do research on this. We could look into this,

and we could have much better answers in a decade. This isn't something we're gonna know tomorrow, but we could have a much better vaccine program in 10 or 20 years if we actually ask these questions and maybe we would remove some of the vaccines, maybe we would change up some of the vaccines. I don't know what it would be, but we would have overall healthier kids.

And no doctor wants to give a kid a vaccine that increases the risk of asthma, right? Like you don't wanna do that. You want, you're doing it because you wanna protect kids. So if we could get the information, then for sure doctors would be like, well, yes, let's take that ingredient out that's creating autoimmune conditions. Like, why wouldn't we want to do that? You're trying to protect kids, right? But I think we don't have the data and we

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That's www.drinklmnt.com slash realfoodology. Well, because it's become a religious cult and what happens in a religion and a cult, you're not allowed to ask any questions. You're the second you step out of line with one of the talking points, you're immediately just shunned from the group. And that's what's that is what has really upset me about this, especially over the last couple of years is that where are the curious minds that just want to get to the bottom of all of it? And why are we not allowed to talk about it? Like that is a red flag to me.

If we're not even allowed to ask questions, that is the biggest red flag to me because what are these companies concerned that we will find? And again, we just don't know. Like, yeah, I mean, we can get conspiratorial with it. And but that's the only logical thing that makes sense to be. I mean, the only logical reason why we wouldn't have this research and we wouldn't be able to ask questions because somebody is pushing to keep that information away from being researched. I don't think that doctors would say the science was settled if they knew what the science was. Just nobody talks about it. And I don't know if it's totally conspiracy versus just not knowing. I think we're told something and we kind of go with it. And then you just assume that the person before you knows what they're talking about. But you go through residency,

you go through training, and you're not taught why don't you trust pharma. You're not taught vaccine safety. You're taught here are the vaccines, here are the diseases, here's why we vaccinate, here's the horrible things you might see. You see some of the diseases in the intensive care unit and you're like, okay, these diseases are bad. We don't want those diseases. So, here's a schedule, let's do it.

That's what you know as a doctor. What parents see is autism, autoimmune disease, chronic conditions. They don't really see these severe diseases like doctors do. So you have very different frames of reference. And doctors are worried about stopping kids from getting measles and dying. They don't want to see a kid in the ICU die of haemophilus influenza. They don't want to see you get a really bad pneumonia from pneumococcus and be in the intensive care unit or die.

That's what doctors have seen. They haven't seen it a ton anymore, but they've still seen it and parents haven't. So there's a different understanding of importance. And I think there's a big disconnect there. And we need a bridge between parents and doctors because doctors are worried about one thing, parents are worried about something else and most parents have never seen measles so they're not really worried about it but they have talked to someone who had a kid who had a reaction to a measles

vaccine and so they they wonder do I really need to get that vaccine why do I need to get that vaccine how serious is this disease and those are reasonable questions where you kind of need in both sides of the information to be able to make a decision because measles can be really dangerous. We've seen that over the last year. Yeah, it's not it's not an all or none. It's not so simple. I mean, if everybody just stops getting the measles vaccine, measles is going to come roaring back.

Do you think it will? I was going to ask you that. Do you think it will or do you think we're at a place where because from from what I've read and obviously I'm coming from a very naive place, like I don't know much about it just from what I've read, and obviously I'm coming from a very naive place, like I don't know much about it, just from what I've read, that we know much better now how to treat it. So, but what's happening in at least some of those cases, one of them was confirmed by the parents that it was actually medical negligence. And the kid actually died from RSV, I believe it was, not measles. They died from mycoplasma.

Oh, okay. It was mycoplasma. Yeah. I knew it wasn't specifically from measles. And so to me, there's an opportunity for a larger conversation that needs to be happening right now, which is why are we not also teaching doctors and hospitals how to actually treat the infection in a way that's going to have a good outcome instead of just shaming the parents and be like, you should have gotten vaccinated. And then also, too, I heard, and I think this might have been a rumor, but there was one of them also where they got vaccinated while they were already in the

middle of the disease. And when that happens, your body goes haywire and it's usually not a good outcome. So for the second one, I, that was, I think a rumor at first, and it wasn't actually true from what I read, at least from what the parents said. I think that was like the original part of it, but they decided not, but you shouldn't vacc at least from what the parents said. I think that was like the original part of it, but then they decided not, but you shouldn't vaccinate in the middle of being sick. I mean, that's pretty standard, people do it sometimes,

but that's standard medicine. With measles, so that kid died theoretically of secondary complications to measles. So they didn't die from measles, but they died from pneumonia from being sick, which is a very common cause of death from all these things. So, yeah, so like immune system was down and then other things were able to take over.

Right, which is very common with measles because one of the main things that it does is it affects your immune system. So, it's a kind of a nuanced conversation because that kid from, I mean, I don't know, I wasn't there, I've only seen what I've heard. It seems like that kid probably shouldn't have died. That kid probably should I mean, I don't know, I wasn't there. I've only seen what I've heard. It seems like that kid probably shouldn't have died. That kid probably should have been treated appropriately

and they made a medical mistake, but they got that pneumonia probably because they had measles. And if they had the measles vaccine, they probably wouldn't have gotten measles and they probably wouldn't have died. They might've died for something else. But it's still related to measles in a way. It's not like they didn't die from measles.

They kind of died from measles, if that makes sense. But measles in general is not that deadly. And I think that's where we have to have open-ass conversations. Most people do just fine. Most people, it's a cold. When we used to have no vaccines before, millions of people got measles and only a few hundred died.

Now today, tens of thousands of people die from the flu. So in perspective, it's not necessarily super scary disease, but measles is super contagious. If you don't have the vaccine and you're around people that have measles, you're gonna get measles, basically everybody does. So if people are not vaccinated, the measles is going to come back.

For the vast majority of people, they'll be just fine. But because it's super contagious, a lot of people will get it and some people will get really sick. So you have to weigh, you know, personally, if you're going to get the vaccine, do I fear nature or do I fear the vaccine? And which one do I fear more? Because the measles vaccine works very well.

I mean, that we know. I mean, as a vaccine goes, you get one, you're 93% protection, two, 97% protection. So most people that get the vaccine never get measles. But are you comfortable with the small but real risk of getting a bad pneumonia, of getting really sick, of dying, I mean, it's not a huge risk, but it's there. And it's real and the vaccine can prevent that.

So that's why it's nuanced, It's not so cut and dry. And especially with measles, I think that that's almost one of the most difficult ones because it's so contagious and because it's still around. It's a real decision to make for a lot of parents because it can be scary, you can get really sick and people can die and we saw that this year. And that child, two kids now,

have died from measles, with measles, from a complication of measles, whatever you want to call it. They got measles and they died from something else. Maybe you can call it whatever you want. And I think people get too hung up over the nuances and the fighting and it's like, no, no, it wasn't from measles. Well, it kind of was, right? Kind of was. But either way, a kid died and it could have potentially been prevented. But on the flip side, the question is, how many people that get the measles shot have a complication?

And if you're preventing 300 deaths, but you're causing 500, or you're preventing 300 deaths, but you're causing millions of kids to get allergies or autism or whatever, well, what is the plus minus? That's what we have to figure out. I don't think it's about the disease,

and I don't think it's about the benefits. I don't think it's about the benefits. I think we know that already. The question is at what cost? At what cost? What are the long-term risks? Is it affecting other things? That to me is the question and the piece of the puzzle that's really missing.

Because for me to make an educated decision for myself or a patient, you have to have that information. We don't have it, I don't think. I don't think we have it. Well, and this is exactly what I would wanna know know when I have kids. Like, this is literally what I'm going over in my brain right now going, okay, wow, like really having to outweigh the risks of that. Because two, like what I would love to see the science actually figure out is, okay, is it the they called adjuvants, right, which are essentially like the carriers

of the virus, right? The adjuvants are like help stimulate the immune system. Okay. So I'm like, is it the virus, right? The adjuvants are like help stimulate the immune system. Okay. So I'm like, is it the adjuvants? Is it the actual virus itself that's causing issues? Or is it the things like mercury from aldehyde, the other things that we're finding in shots? I would love to know that because then, you know, neuroinflammation. And then we're seeing all these neurological issues and all this other stuff. Well, what if there's a world in either we take the mercury out or we find a way where we have kids on a protocol afterwards, like, okay, they just got a big dose of mercury. Now, like detox

immediately. How can we get them, you know, get the mercury out of their bodies? But like, we don't know any of this and we don't know actually know if it is. We do mercury is causing issues just in general that it does cause issues in people. We know that for a fact We do know that formaldehyde is probably not a good thing to be injecting But again, is it also the combination of formaldehyde with the virus? Like these are things like as a soon-to-be parent while I'm not pregnant yet, but like hope to be in the next couple of years No surprises here, yeah, guys. But like this is what I would like to know because I want to weigh this out because obviously I mean, there's our precious little babies. Like I want to be able to make the I want to be able to

make an informed consent decision and know exactly what my kid is at risk for whether or not I'm going to do this. Right. And the counter argument that the medical system would make is it's very small amounts and we say it's safe. And that's what they say, and that's what they said with mercury, they said it with aluminum, they say it with formaldehyde, and maybe it is, maybe that's true, but also all these other things that we've seen over the last 100 years that we were told are safe, it gets lower and lower

until the point where it's not safe anymore, like lead. Lead was totally safe, it could be in paint. Not that long ago, point where it's not safe anymore, like lead. Lead was totally safe. It could be in paint. Not that long ago. And then it's not safe anymore. Mercury, well, it's totally fine. Let's just put it in vaccines without studying it. How could that go wrong? And then we realize mercury is maybe not the best for you. And we don't want to have any food. And then they all of a sudden just were like, wait a minute. We have more mercury in vaccines than we're allowing in food. Is that okay? And it's a different form of mercury, but they hadn't

even studied to see if it was safe to eject, not really. And they realized it's a huge amount or I don't know, a huge amount, but more than we're allowing in food. So they started to do research and they never totally found it to be a problem, but they just decided to take it out anyways. And then we have the same discussion around aluminum, where there's aluminum vaccines, we have more vaccines, we have more vaccines with aluminum. They say that it's safe at those levels and maybe it is, but you can't say that aluminum at any dose is safe. I mean, we have safety centers for water and for the air that we breathe. And as we give it more and more in injections, is that a problem?

If there is a higher amount in a vaccine, is that an issue? If you don't detoxify well, is that an issue? I don't know, maybe, but it's not unreasonable for a parent to ask about that and for it to not get shamed because they're worried that maybe aluminum in there could cause a problem in their kids. I don't think that's unreasonable. Yeah, it's not. And we should have these types of answers for parents.

Because you had mentioned earlier that there's never been a higher amount of hesitancy around vaccines and around doctors. And it's because the medical system is not being honest with parents. Like they're basically just, I mean, they're gaslighting them. They are.

They're gaslighting them. They're going, no, no, no, no, no. It's totally fine. It's all settled. Like you don't need to worry at all. There's no, I mean, I've gaslighting them. They are, they're gaslighting them. They're going, no, no, no, no, no, it's totally fine. It's all settled. Like, you don't need to worry at all. There's no, I mean, I've heard that there's literally doctors that say, I had a doctor actually tell me when I was in college that there was absolutely no side effects to birth control and I didn't need to worry about it at all as I'm literally experiencing the side

effects. So it's just, there's so much gaslighting that happens and it's because they say, well, we know better than the patient and we don't want to create hesitancy. And it's this, I'm sorry, but it's quite frankly fucking bullshit. And it pisses me off as a patient because when people are experiencing side effects or like they see that their kid was totally fine, I just watched a video of a woman two days ago on camera telling the camera, I have this beautiful baby boy who has autism. And she was like, you know, he was talking and he was walking and he was doing all this

stuff and then he hit two. And then all of a sudden now he's nonverbal and he's autistic. And I wanted to bash my freaking head in because I just thought like, okay, what happens around too? They get a whole round of shots. So why are we not asking at least like, what did he get injected? And again, I'm not saying that I think definitively that's exactly what caused it. He could also have been exposed to BPAs and glyphosate.

But should we know that? Exactly. If a kid was developing completely normally and then the next day or the next week, there were severe symptoms, and I think autism's many things, and there are different causes, and some people are born with it, and other kids might have some sort of insult

or some sort of exposure. But how could it be a problem to ask that question? You're not saying it was a vaccine, you're saying, okay, what happened this week? What did you do? What happened? If we ask that question for every single kid with autism and we actually studied it really well, we would probably figure it out. Or at least we would know the 10 biggest risk factors, the things to watch for,

the things that are most related to it. And instead we just say, oh, it's just genetics. Oh, we're just better at diagnosing it. Which, oh, this is just, you know, at what point are we going to stop saying that? Is it have to be one in two kids before we start saying that it's just better at diagnosing it. Which, oh, this is just, you know, our path. At what point are we gonna stop saying that? Is it gonna have to be one in two kids before we start saying that it's just better diagnosis? Like you can look around, it's way more than it ever used to be.

Yes, we're better at diagnosing it. Yes, we are more aware of it. Certainly some percentage of it is that. There's no question about it. But we didn't go from one in 250 to one in 31 now and one in 12 and a half boys in California. You think it was one in 12 kids 50 years ago? There's no way that was the way that it was.

And if in five years it's one in three kids, are we going to be like, I guess we're just better diagnosing it now? I'm sorry. I understand if it's low grade autism and there's a lot of people that I guess, I don't know what you would call it like medically, but like passing as like non-autistic if they're on low levels but there are then that's true there were a lot of people that that that were under but but but if we're not talking about that

the severe kids the kids where it's now two-thirds are severe or borderline intellectual disability. You have kids that are stimming, that can't function with their daily, to do the things they need to do daily, that are hurting themselves, that don't have speech, that don't have communication. That's what we're talking about. That is becoming more and more severe. More percentage of autism is becoming very severe. And those people do want help and they do want support and they do want to prevent that if they can.

That is not to say that you shouldn't love everybody, that autistic brains can have super special skills. There are many kids that have the diagnosis of autism that have extraordinary skills. That's not what we're talking about. And that's why I think it kind of needs to be split into two things because I think it's probably more than one thing, but at least it needs to be split into like high functioning or difficult issues because I think that we want it, we want to split those two things up

and support those families that really do want it. Cause a lot of parents do want it, but then all these other families say, no, no, no, no, no. It's crazy. You're shaming people. You're calling it disease. You work with kids that have severe autism. You will not tell me that that's not something that that kid was normal one day and talking like that and then next day they

couldn't support themselves and go to the bathroom and do those things. And we're why are we not recognizing that for a parent and also for that child, that's a really hard life. If they are nonverbal, they're stemming, they're bashing their head in the wall. I mean, I watched or sorry, not watched. I read a post from a mom of a very severe autistic child and the mom literally like essentially wrote in this paragraph that she was like giving up on life because it was so hard on her. It's very hard in some families. It's their whole life. You know, they're going to get services. They're working on physical therapy and occupational therapy and speech therapy and it's extremely

tough. And if there is some percentage of those cases that we can prevent or help or support, why would we not want to do it? Even if it is just better diagnosis, if it's getting more severe and people are having more symptoms, shouldn't we work on that? Should we figure out why one in 12 children are having these issues and two thirds of those are severe and a majority of them have severe communication difficulties?

That's a big deal. It's a big deal. I think it's become so, I don't know, not politicized, but it's like because of vaccines and that being a part of this discussion that there's almost this push to just normalize it. And that way, if it's normal, then it's not because of a vaccine or it's not because of some chemical insult. And therefore, we don't have to even look into it.

And I think that's a huge disservice to our kids as we're seeing this increase. I think we need to split up the conversation a little bit and try to figure out what, if anything, is triggering it for that percentage where it is triggered. And we just go from there. We just are open. I think that's what RFK is talking about. I mean, I don't know why he said he would know by a couple months. Maybe he knows some things that I don't know. But I think that the essence of what he's saying is very important and very real. We have a big issue. We have to get serious about it. We have to look into it. We have to be open. We have to be open to anything being a trigger or root cause and just research it and just get back to basics,

figure out the main triggers and then try to change some of those things. It's not that complicated. Autism is complicated. It's not simple. But basic research is not that complicated. Yeah. Well, and when you look at what we're doing right now, which is virtually nothing, versus like what we're saying that we want to do, I just am blown away that there's not more people that don't have just a simple curiosity about it. I'm very curious and I want to know and I have my own theories about it. Because look, there are also cases of children. There's many cases of children that have never been

vaccinated that still have autism. So I want to know. And actually, I would love to know what your thoughts around this in general are. Like, is it something where maybe the mom has toxic, you know, burden and overload and then she's passing in utero to the baby? We just don't know, right? And I think that's the thing that's so crazy. I mean, just like you said, I've taken care of kids with autism that never had a vaccine. So it's obviously not just vaccines. Of course.

There are many things and there are many, many theories. I mean, certainly genetics plays a part, older age plays a part. And then many toxins and infections are thought to trigger it or correlated with it, but we just don't know. And when you have this huge discussion about vaccines and this huge pushback, wouldn't you think there would be at least one big study looking at vaccinated kids versus unvaccinated kids, even retrospectively, even taking some big database like, I don't know, Kaiser or something and being like, all right, let's get all the unvaccinated kids.

Let's see how much autism they have versus kids that don't. That doesn't even exist. Not even that. Yeah, that's crazy. How can you say the science is settled when you haven't even looked at the big databases that we have and have a study that shows that? It would obviously be published and be front page news if it existed. Well, because Joel, they say that it's unethical to study non-vaccinated kids because it would be unethical to not vaccinate them.

Not retrospectively though. Exactly. I'm just playing the counter argument. But even still, you could still study it prospectively by letting people choose what group they're in. Exactly. They could choose to be vaccinated or unvaccinated and you could follow them. There's no reason why we can't do that. It's not the perfect study because it's not randomized, but it's still good information.

And if you look 10 years from now and kids that are unvaccinated have a very different autism rate than kids that are vaccinated, then the kids with the unvaccinated lifestyle, there's some things that they're doing that are different. That's good to know. And if they're exactly the same, then-

Then we know it's not vaccines. We know it's probably not vaccines, and that's good information that people will say, okay, well, maybe I was wrong. And everybody thought for sure it was mercury 10 or 20 years ago, well, 20 years ago, I guess now. And I'm sure if I was around at that time and doing podcasts if they existed back 20 years ago, I would have thought that too.

They took that out of vaccines, autism rates are still going up. So it's probably not the primary driver. So just because we think something doesn't mean it's true, just because we're, you know, a lot of people are like, oh, it's for sure vaccines, just because you think that doesn't mean it's true. But it certainly is a main suspect in our case here. And we should be at least exploring it and we shouldn't

say that the science is settled until you've actually done a few studies to show that it could be and you could do it, it's possible. You can't say there's ethics, you could do it, there are ethical ways to do it. Yeah, well, in the scientific process is you start taking note, you have a lot of anecdotal things that continue to repeat themselves over and over again and then you have a theory, you have a hypothesis, and then you test and see if it's true. And then you know. And then you can say, for now, the science is settled because then we always learn things

later on down the line. And you know, as you as you learn more, the more you realize how much we don't know, which is also something to like keep in mind with science and to keep you humble is that, yeah, this is what we know right now, but things could always change. Yeah, well, I think one of the biggest issues is that, especially with the medical community, doctors don't actually know.

We don't know, we assume. We're told things and then we kind of take that at face value. I guarantee you, nine out of 10 doctors if they would go read the research themselves on autism would never say it was settled again. I just don't think anyone's ever done it. I think we're just told that the CDC says it. Our establishment says it. We know for sure it's not. There are huge studies. And they don't even know what those studies are.

There's no way that a doctor would look at that research, I think, unless I'm missing something, and they would say the science is settled. They would be like, wait, what? Because that's what I said. Yeah. That's what I said. I thought it was a lot more settled. I thought there was a lot more research. I thought for sure we had big studies because why wouldn't we? But we don't. So would you say that that's the thing that surprised you the most

when you started looking into all of this? Or what shocked you the most? Yeah. No question the autism research shocked me the most. The lack of long term trials, I think that really shocked me as well. Just really realizing that we don't study vaccines after the fact. They're really studied, for the most part, before. They're studied by the companies. They're studied often in biased ways. So most of the pre-licensure clinical

trials don't have a true inert placebo. They're placebo-controlled trials, but they get around it by the placebo being another vaccine. So you have a relative safety. You're studying one vaccine versus another versus against an unvaccinated kid. So it kind of masks their research a little bit. So I think that is quite shocking if you don't really realize how things are studied. And the way that we monitor injuries, I mean, it's really non-existent, right? We have VAERS, which is self-reporting.

So you can report it yourself. A doctor can report it. The company can report it if you identify that it could be a vaccine injury. There are a few other things like the Vaccine Safety Data Link, but that's just a small percentage of the population. It's still medical reporting. And there's some research studies that might be done by individuals, but you have to create a hypothesis, get funding, and do it.

How... Let's say you take the hepatitis B vaccine today and you get thyroid cancer 10 years from now. If that was associated with the vaccine, how would you know? How would you report? You wouldn't think, oh, I got cancer today. Well, the vaccine I got when I was two days old, that's the thing that triggered this thyroid cancer. There's nothing watching it. You have to watch prospectively to see,

oh, wait a minute, kids that are vaccinated have a higher rate of this, why? You can't know those things unless there's something paying attention. And we talked about asthma and allergies and autoimmune conditions and all these things that happen years later There's no easy way

With the current system to identify those things as being related to vaccines or not Because you wouldn't you wouldn't self-report you got asthma because of your vaccine because you wouldn't know yeah Yeah, well and parents aren't even taught really to make this correlation I I just made this correlation a of years ago just because of all the research that I've been digging into in various areas of all of this with health. And there was a connection made for me that all of a sudden, not only are autism rates going up, but autoimmunity is through the roof, or eczema, psoriasis, asthma, allergies in general. And there is a hypothesis that it could be

because we're doing something to our immune systems, making them overactive. And again, I mean, is there science to prove that or have we not studied that either? Well, that's the problem, right? Because just like we're saying, it's correlation. So you wouldn't report that your autoimmune condition had to do with vaccines

because we don't have that kind of evidence. So you don't even know that it is, right? How do you know something 10 years from now is related to something before? It might have nothing to do with that. The only way you could study that is either long-term prospective trials before something comes on the market if they continued, or if somebody does that research, or at least if somebody looks into these things, which there is some research. I mean, the problem is the research is mixed and it's not the best kind of research, but

we certainly have epidemiologic studies. As of right now, if you look at mainstream stuff, they would say, no, we have big studies, these things are not related. But then you can also find many studies that are good quality studies where they say, maybe, maybe this study might show that it's related or this study might show that it's related in this way. So it's not cut and dry and there's two sides to the arguments, but also people are really disincentivized

from doing this kind of research. So it's really hard to get anything that shows a problem if there would be because no one's doing that kind of research because they don't wanna find problems or if they do find a problem, their paper doesn't get published or they lose funding. Most of it is done by CDC researchers and people that are biased. I mean, it's not that CDC shouldn't do research on vaccines. They should. But if the head of the safety for vaccine research does a study on

vaccines and they publish 10 things that show the vaccines are unsafe, they're not keeping their job very long. Right? So that's just doing the research right now. Exactly, and they most likely either have a cushy job waiting for them at Pfizer or they came from Pfizer and they went to the CDC and that's part of the problem and that's a symptom of a greater issue that we're dealing with right now. We need unbiased research from other people

but there's nobody to do that research. Yeah. So I don't know that they do cause these issues but I definitely know that we don't know for sure because we haven't studied it in that way. You'd have to follow people. You'd have to have long-term trials. You have to look at things,

just like we did with heart disease. We had the Framingham study. They studied people, they're still studying them for generations looking at how your lifestyle and different things affect heart disease. And we find all sorts of things that you never even imagined because you have to be following people for a long time to do it. You can't just know. That's why you can't just guess. That's why you can't just say, oh, I think vaccines cause autism. You have to get that kind of research, but you can't say that it doesn't until you get that kind of research.

And when there is this continued discussion around the topic, it's really important that we do, especially as we're doing more and more and more. How many vaccines are we gonna have? 100, 300? Are you gonna come to the doctor and get 30 shots? At what points are gonna stop? And what point are we gonna, so I think that's why we need to stand right now because kids are so unhealthy in general

that we have to look at what could be causing it or triggering it. And maybe vaccines have some part in that. And maybe we can improve that to improve their health at what could be causing it or triggering it and maybe vaccines have some part in that and maybe we can improve that to improve their health because we want to be living to 120 and 150. But we're not we're going the wrong direction right now. Yeah, I don't know if a lot of people know that but we are actually trending backwards now. Forever the narrative around this is that oh we're living longer than ever and you know like

humans have a huge life lifespan now and it's actually we're now reverting back. In fact, I read a statistic that if we don't get a handle on this next generation of children's health, they will actually, they're expected to not outlive their parents, which would be the first generation to not outlive their parents. Right. So, which is insane. Because the first comment, like you said, people says, well, we're living longer. And it's true, we're not living till 40 anymore. You're living life expectancy in your 70s. So that's good. I mean, some of the stuff that we've done is very good. And a lot of that has to do with sanitation and better

health care in general and understanding of disease and not being overcrowded. I mean, water filtration in sewers and all that stuff. So that makes a huge difference. and it did make a huge difference. And most of the infectious diseases plummeted before we ever had vaccines. So most of the deaths had already disappeared by that point in terms of infectious disease, because we were so much healthier, because people were getting calories and they weren't living 300 people in one little building,

or they weren't going to the bathroom in the street. These things make a huge difference for infectious disease and they also understand vitamins. We didn't know what vitamins were back then so you didn't know what to eat. And we don't have the best food but you still get your vitamins these days. So it's a little different world but life expectancy is going back down, chronic disease rates are skyrocketing and so we have to have a little bit of humility, which medicine is not very good at, and say,

look, we're good at some things, we're much better at infectious disease in general, but we're not so great at some of these other things. What have we done in the last 20 years to start seeing these trends go in the wrong direction? And what kind of course corrections do we need to make so we can continue that upwards trajectory? Because we want our kids, again, to be living to 100 or 120.

That's where our life expectancy should be if we keep getting healthier. But if we're doing something that's impeding that health, if it's increasing our chronic disease, if we're now gonna die earlier, we're gonna be on multiple medications, we're gonna be overweight and obese, we're gonna have diabetes,

we need to figure out how we can shift that a little bit so we can help our kids. Who doesn't want that? Yes. And who doesn't want a better quality of life? Like I just was sitting here thinking, you know, almost every single one of my girlfriends that have babies have really been struggling with some bout of like eczema or something with their kiddos and, you know, an asthma and food allergies. And there's just all these things that that my generation is now dealing with

their children that when I was a kid, our parents didn't really have to. I'm not saying no kids had it, but I didn't know anybody growing up that had food allergies or like eczema. Or we just really weren't seeing it in the numbers that we're seeing now. It's exploded. Most of the things are at least three times higher. And even just a couple of decades ago. And that's uncomfortable.

It's not just happening. Like, something is going on. And again, it's not just better diagnosis. If a kid had asthma, you would know it back then. You would diagnose it. They'd be in the hospital. These things we wouldn't miss. If a kid's not speaking, I mean, they

might not have been given the diagnosis of asthma, but they would have had some diagnosis at that point. So we weren't just missing all these severe cases where we have something going on and we have to be okay to explore it. And that's where I go back to saying, again, I don't have a desire for people to get more vaccines or fewer vaccines. I have a desire for kids to be healthier, whatever that means. And if we do all of the right research and it shows that vaccines just protect you

from everything and have zero side effects, great, they can have 10,000 vaccines, go for it. But that's not the reality of what's going on. I have no problem if there's some magic pill you give to your kid and they'll never get sick again. Right, who doesn't? But that's not how things work. There are side effects and risks

and we have to know what those risks are so we can make an educated decision for ourself. Just like if you have cancer and you take chemotherapy, we know that there are risks for chemotherapy, right? Like it's going to affect your immune system and you might lose your hair and all sorts of complications, but people still choose to do it because they want to treat their cancer. Right? So that's informed consent. Some people won't want to do it. They don't want to do chemotherapy. They don't want that. They'll try something else. That's informed consent. They have that right to choose.

That's what we need with every medical product. And just because vaccines have some risks, they're going to have some risks. We're probably going to never have zero risks. We want to know what that is. And then people can decide. And if those risks are truly one in a million and they prevent you from one in 10,000 chance of getting a severe disease, great, then you're choosing that I think that the benefits that way, the risks,

and I'm going to go ahead and do them. But if the risks are kind of even on both sides, or maybe you even have increased risk of some things that you're concerned about, or maybe your kid is already sensitive, maybe they already had seizures, or they have a seizure disorder, and you know that these vaccines increase the risk for seizures. Maybe for you, you're not gonna wanna take that chance to give your kid an increased risk for seizures,

so you won't choose to do it. That's how we do everything else, just not vaccines. I know, and that's what's very, very weird to me. And I mean, I just, I can't help but think it has to do with the fact that, I mean, it's money, in my opinion, and I know it sounds like conspiratorial but and it's hard I think for a lot of people to wrap their brains around the fact that these medical companies these pharmaceutical companies could be potentially putting their

profits over human health and I think it's hard for a lot of people to swallow that. I think that's just the way corporations work I mean I don't know that it's all nefarious and evil I'm sure there are some nefarious evil people but I think for's just the way corporations work. I don't know that it's all nefarious and evil. I'm sure there are some nefarious evil people, but I think for the most part, a corporation doesn't care about you. Why would they? They care about whether you buy their product. That's their job.

Their CEO's job is to make more money this money than last month. They have to have better profits or they get fired. That's all they care about. That's what their job is. Their job is not to make you healthier per se. If that's a side effect, great. You know, but they just want you to take their product.

That's what we have with food. And that's what we have with pesticides and agriculture. That's what we have with pharmaceuticals. We just have moved to this society where these companies have gotten so big that they have so much money and they know how to play the game. They have the best lawyers. They have the best PR firms. And they know how to play the game, they have the best lawyers, they have the best PR Ferbs, and they know how to do everything to shift attention away from the problems with their products and to have everybody just fight with each other and bog everything down with

regulation to the point where we just don't even know what's true anymore. And that's what they've done. They have bought the medical schools, they fund everything, they fund the journals, they fund the researchers, they fund the news, they fund everything that's not because they're philanthropic individuals, you know, they're not like funding, giving free food in other countries, they're funding politicians and the news and medicine and people don't realize like as a doctor you go through med school, you don't realize that your school has gotten multimillion dollar donations from something. You don't realize that the journals

have gotten multimillion dollar donations. They just know what they're doing. And they're not doing it to be evil. They're just doing it to kind of influence things. And if the news organization has most of their funding coming from a big pharma company, you're probably not gonna say something bad about that big pharma company. You're at least going to say something bad about that big pharma company.

You're at least going to give them the benefit of the doubt. And they know that. And that's what they're doing. And they've done that for 20, 40, 50 years. So we just live in this world where we don't even realize that we are so biased. Doctors don't realize that before the pharmaceutical model, there were other models. And we kind of moved to this pharmaceutical model because that's what Flexner had in his report and that's what Rockefeller wanted. I mean, he had the oil and he had connections with the schools and he made that.

They made this be our system and there's a lot of good for it. I mean, science is a good thing and medicine is not a bad thing, but we have a very specific system that has been cultivated for over 100 years now. Yeah. And we don't realize that we're doing something one way, but it doesn't necessarily have to be that way, or it's not necessarily the best way,

or there isn't maybe other ways to think about things. We just think that the American way is the best, that the California vaccine schedule is the best schedule. And it's like, well, other places do it differently. Not everyone has the same. There are many ways to do things. We think fluoride is like the best thing, right? Oh, we should have fluoride.

Most countries don't do it, but we do. That is true. So why do we assume that we're right? Yes. Well, in a lot of other countries have science that they've looked into certain things, like, for example, food dyes, you know, that I've talked about a lot on this podcast. It's like, why are exactly why are we not looking at some of the research that other companies have done as well? And just to be clear, I don't I also am I'm on the same page as you. I don't think that there's like some

nefarious like Dr. Evil, you know, the head of a big pharmaceutical company being like, haha, like laughing all the way to the bank. I just think it's like they're looking at spreadsheets and they're looking at spreadsheets and they're looking at numbers and it's become all about sales and hitting numbers and quotas. And it's like they're not seeing those individual sales as like your mom, your dad, your children.

It's just like how it is. They're doing everything they can do to improve their bottom line. And that involves buying everybody. Having everyone in your back pocket. That's what I would do. If I was in charge of a big company, just think about what would you do

if you had unlimited dollars and you wanted to run, and the only thing you cared about was making more money. You would make sure you make more money. And the best way to do that is to rig the system for you. It's not evil, it's just what you would do. And if we don't want that, then we have to have checks and balances. And when those organizations that were supposed to be the checks and balances

are mostly funded by those companies and people go back and forth through those companies, not in an evil way, they're just funding research. It's not bad. We want that research too, but they're funding it. Why do you think they're funding it? Exactly, because then they can sway the outcome. They can sway the outcome. Why does a pharmaceutical company do the research on their product?

I know it's insane. This is where it becomes a hard part of the conversation because then who's going to pay for it? Where are we going to get the money to pay for these studies? So it's like, I understand that. I understand it, but we also have to understand it. Exactly. It's not evil. It's just, this is the system. And we are in a system that we have gotten to a point where because of the way that society is set up,

these companies are so big, they're bigger than government. They're bigger than countries. They're so big, they have so much money and they know how to play the game and they've done it for long enough. We have to open things up a little bit, shake things up and really figure out how we can monitor and make sure that there are some checks and balances at least, especially when it comes to our health.

If we want to be healthy, we have to assume that these companies don't have our best interests at heart. So we have to do it. Like we need to, and I think that's what RFK is saying, even though people get mad at them so much. It's like, we have to get it. Like, we need to, and I think that's what RFK is saying, even though people get mad at them so much, is like, we have to get these people out of the research and to do real research on what we actually want to find. Like, not just researching what they want us to do.

Yeah, it's like, how can we get past, like, what they want to find and how can we just get the freaking research? Like, just get the actual research and the truth. Like, I just want to get the truth, you know, without everybody else having a say and a sway and, oh, you know, this company wants it to be this certain way. I want to ask you. It can happen. It definitely can.

We just have to get all the corruption out and it feels like a David versus Goliath kind of situation. And I'm very optimistic, but it just feels like we have a lot of work cut out for us. I think it is, but at the same time, I think a lot of it is about recognizing that this is going on because especially in this society now, we have social media, people can get their information out there, it's much harder to be censored.

And even just the threat of being exposed is a huge deterrent and I feel like there's such an awakening in this last year of the reality of all of these corporations and food and pharma, and you have seen such a rapid change in just a few months that I actually do feel like we're gonna have a big change. Like we're not gonna ever stop all nefarious stuff. We're not gonna, I mean, not in the short term,

we're not gonna stop corporations from wanting to make money and doing all sorts of crazy stuff to get around it. But at least we can point our North Star in a better direction and we can fund and we can use our taxes towards trying to get some research about some things to start moving in a better direction. We could do that. It's possible. Yeah, yeah, it definitely is. And that's why I'm so grateful we have R.F. because I feel like he's our he's our north star and like the

finally the first real chance in my opinion that we have to actually get these questions answered and the research looked at. Yeah he I mean he's obviously a controversial figure he's an interesting guy but it doesn't really matter if you like him or you don't like him. Our health is suffering and it's out of control and it's not good. And we need somebody to shake it up and he's going to do that. And you're not going to agree with every single thing he says. And that's fine. What politician do you ever agree with everything they say? That's fine.

But as long as he's moving in a different direction and opening things up and having discussions and pushing research forward, I think that's a good thing. And I hope that he will continue to do that and continue to do what he feels is best for health, because what we were doing wasn't working. So whatever is going to be done is going to be better, I think. Yeah, I think so, too. You know what I was just thinking about, which I just think is so funny about how you were like, you know, he's a polarizing figure and not everyone likes him. And I was thinking about how like when we watch movies

and there's like a known like corporation that's like poisoning someone or there's this company that's taking advantage of people and then you have this like disruptor and like renegade and that's like the hero of the movie. We're literally watching this play out right now, but there's a large portion of society that has made the hero in this be the villain. And we're like protecting the companies. And it's because the companies are lashing out and putting out a lot of propaganda and the news and everywhere else on social media. He has the potential to be the hero.

We'll see where it goes and what he actually does over time. It's one of the most interesting things that I've ever seen in my life. The person who was maybe the most anti-establishment, anti-health medical figure, for better or worse, is the person who's running it a year later. It's so weird. It's so weird to watch that kind of shift, like him and Dale Bigtree,

the superest of fringe people a year and a half ago, they shouldn't have been, but they were. And then now they're, it's weird. It's very weird and we'll see what happens. But I think if people actually listen to what he said, he says a lot of very intelligent things. They don't love him, a lot of people in the medical science because of what they think he thinks about vaccines.

So I think he's got a long way to go in terms of winning people over in the medical establishment. He's going to have to do that if he really wants to make real change. I mean, I think he can, he can push things through, but ultimately he has to win over the healthcare providers and, and he needs to hopefully continue to move that needle forward a little bit. So we'll see how he does with that. He's got a, a pill battle. So we'll see how he does with that. He's got a pill battle.

Yeah, he really does. But he could be the hero in the long run because he's doing what nobody else will do. He's saying what nobody else will say. And even though so many people in the healthcare industry feel like they hate him or feel like he's doing these evil things, they may turn around in five years and be like,

hmm, well, I actually didn't know what the research on autism was. I was kind of wrong about that. Oh, well, he was saying these things. Maybe those are true. Oh, you know, remember that person who was talking about lead all these years ago? Maybe they weren't crazy.

Maybe that person was talking about glyphosate. Maybe they weren't that crazy. Like those people are heroes later. So he's gonna be like an artist or something that, you know, after you die, your paintings become really valuable. It's like we don't recognize the hero until later sometimes. Yeah, that's so true. Wow, that's fascinating. I want to ask you about a specific vaccine, because I get a lot of messages from parents that are dealing with this now later in life,

where they're starting to push it on their kids at like 12, 13, 14. And there's a lot of controversy around the Gardasil vaccine. What are your thoughts? Like, because I know also in the book too, I know that you like peeked inside the syringe and you were, you went down the line and like looked a bunch of different vaccines. What did you find out about the HPV one? Yeah, HPV is probably the most controversial after the COVID vaccine, I would say, around the world. It's controversial because the benefits seem to be huge these days. It seems like there are more and more studies coming out that are showing that it's actually working really well and cervical cancer rates have plummeted after the vaccine.

So that part makes it hard because you're preventing cancer and that's what you hear all the vaccine. So that part makes it hard because you're preventing cancer and that's what you hear all the time. The concern around it is the autoimmune conditions, the side effects that people continually say that they had. After it came out, there was a huge spike in VAERS reports and incidents that people are reporting about all sorts of autoimmune conditions. And there was research done and most of that research

shows that it wasn't related, it wasn't increasing the risk. Again, I don't know how great I would say all that research is. A little bit biased, but that's what it is. And we don't really have anything to counter that. I mean, there are some studies, not so great ones. But again, you have this anecdotal evidence kind of like autism where people are saying something over and over again.

And I've certainly seen patients and had patients come to me after that have big concerns after they got that vaccine. But the science is not there yet because at least as of mainstream, it's still preventing cancer and the risks are minimal and everything has risks, but the risks are low. So that's kind of where we are with HPV, but it's right up there with the COVID vaccine. And all these vaccines have two different worlds. I mean, there's nothing more than the COVID vaccine when it comes to that. You look at one website and it's the best vaccine ever and it prevents death and prevent millions of deaths

and it saved trillions of dollars. And then you look at the next influencer or website and it's the worst thing ever and it's killing everybody and we should pull it. And you're like, well, they both have good research. Which one's right? And that is a big problem with vaccine research because nobody talks to each other. You have two worlds, they both have good research, which one's right? Yeah. And that is a big problem with vaccine research because nobody talks to each other.

You have two worlds. They're completely separate. And they never have debates. They never have discussions. Can never get to the bottom of anything because you have good research over here and good research over here. And they both think the other research is crazy.

How do we divide that gap? Because it's so frustrating. Because I'll tell you, I actually, I was in the other lane of like, I'm so grateful I didn't get the Gardasil vaccine because I was hearing when I was younger, when everyone I knew that was getting it, I was hearing all these insane, like there was a lot of litigations happening. I remember I thought it was going to get pulled at one point. I'm honestly shocked that it didn't because of how much controversy there was.

There's also a lot of stuff circulating now about people getting like severe. I mean, I just saw this kid like a week ago who's severely paralyzed from it. And so there's like, yeah. So anyways. I just think it's so hard because I don't think we have a good understanding of the risks. Yeah.

And that's where it's so hard for me because people always want to know like, what should I do? And I don't know the answer to that. The only thing I can tell you as a doctor is the CDC schedule is the CDC schedule. It's, I have to be humble. It's really arrogant of me, one person, to be like, you should do something that's not the CDC schedule.

A lot of people study that for a long time. That's what they think is best. So that's what is the recommendation. You want to do anything else, that's a personal choice. But when you talk about things like that, I've heard so many stories, everybody I know has heard so many stories about COVID vaccine, about HPV.

So it's hard to know what's true because you read the literature, you read the mainstream stuff and they're like, nah, it's fair. But how rare is it when everyone's heard it so many times? How much do we actually not know? I think that's a huge question. And again, it goes back to a lack of good data on injuries

because I feel like the vast majority of injuries are not reported and are not recorded. And again, it goes back to a lack of good data on injuries because I feel like the vast majority of injuries are not reported and are not recorded. So we really have no idea the scope of the injuries. And so yeah, preventing cancer is good, but at what cost? I don't know. I don't know the answer

because you need to know what the cost is. Yeah, that's so true. Okay, so then just to kind of wrap this up, I guess what would be, I mean, obviously, like parents need to get your book, but let's say, I mean, like, speak to me, I guess, you know, I would be a perfect example. So I'm hoping to get pregnant by the end of this year. And I am, you know, struggling as I've learned more about all of this and had a lot of these

conversations. I'm very much in a place of like, oh my God, like what do I do? Because it's kind of, you know, so what would be your advice to someone who's really struggling with this with their kids? Yeah, the big thing is I think people need to get educated on it. They have to read and if they're really struggling, then they, well, first you gotta find a place

where you feel comfortable talking. I think that's the first key. You have to go to a doctor where they're at least open to having these discussions because a lot of places are not. If you're gung-ho on the CDC schedule, that's fine. You can go wherever you want. But if you are hesitant or you have questions, then you want to go somewhere that you can feel comfortable having conversations.

So that way you can work this out over the next couple of years because we don't know where the research is going to be a few years from now. As a physician, there's nothing that you can recommend other than the CDC schedule. And that's what I tell every parent that comes in. That's the recommendation. If you want to do anything else, that's up to you. We can talk about it. We can come up with a plan and you have to decide how comfortable you are moving through

the vaccines. A lot of parents just want to do one at a time. So we talk about the pros and the cons. We talk about what's most risky, what they're most likely to be exposed to. Some people do vaccines because they want to do them for school, wherever they are. I mean, there are different reasons. So you have to talk that through. But it's really key not to read one source. That's the most important. And that's why I wrote the book in the first place, because nothing like this exists. But at least if you're going to read other things, then you got to read two different things.

You can't just read Paul Offit's book. I mean, it's a great book if you want the CDC narrative. He's a great speaker and it's just really important, but you also have to read other things too. And you have to weigh that for yourself. Nobody has a crystal ball, so you have to decide where you're comfortable with the risks. Do you want the risk from the diseases

or do you want the risk from the vaccines? And I can't decide that for you. I don't know who's gonna be the one kid to get measles and die. I don't know who's gonna be the one kid to get a vaccine reaction and have a severe reaction. I don't know. I mean, most things are rare.

So most kids get vaccines and they're just fine. And most kids never get these diseases, which is great. So at the end of the day, you have to choose what you feel like is best for you. And that's not always easy, but there isn't a simple solution. You have to think about it and come up with a plan and you can work your way through. You don't have to decide everything for the next 20 years. Just first decide, do I want to do any vaccines?

Which one do I want to do first? And then you do that one or you just you follow the CDC schedule if that's what you're comfortable doing. But at least for me, most people are not coming to my office because they're wanting to do the CDC schedule. Yeah. Yeah, it's so interesting. I do want to say it, you know, we don't know this. I know we've talked about this the entire episode, but we say right now that it's rare for a kid to have a vaccine injury

and that I'm looking at eczema, psoriasis, asthma, autoimmune, autism one in 12 in California and boys. And I'm going, are they rare? And I'm literally, like legitimately saying, are they? Like I'm not trying to insinuate anything. That is why I can't answer. That's why when people ask me, I have such a tough time answering the question because the answer hinges on that. Yeah.

And that's why we need to know. If vaccines have nothing to do with those and they truly have nothing to do with those, then the benefits probably away the risks. But if vaccines are amazing, then the benefits are probably away the risks. on that. Yeah. And that's what we need to know. If vaccines have nothing to do with those and they truly have nothing to do with those, then the benefits probably are way the risks. But if vaccines are a major cause or a major contributor or even a moderate contributor to autoimmune disease and eczema and allergies and all sorts of things, a long list of things, even if it's 1% of each of those things, that's a huge risk compared to a kind of minimal benefit right now. I mean, yes, if everyone stops vaccinating, the risk is going to increase.

But as of this very second where you sit, most of these diseases are extraordinarily rare. So the chance that you're going to get it and even if you do get it, get super sick are quite small. So that makes it a really tough decision. And that is why it's really tough for me. And that is why I wanted to write the book in the first place, because I wanted to look into this. And I still don't have the answer to those questions because it doesn't exist.

And that's why if there's one thing that I want from this book, the goal is to get discussion. I want discussion. I didn't have a goal of getting people to vaccinate or not vaccinate. It's to look at what is available and what information that we have and ask the tough questions and discuss

these kinds of things. So that way we can move forward and say, okay, well, maybe we don't know all this information. We need to go get it. I can't answer the question appropriately without that information. I can't answer for you a risk benefit question without knowing the risks. And I don't feel like I know the true risks of vaccines yet. Doesn't mean they are more risky, but I don't feel like I can give you the perfect answer. And my answer would be very different

depending on how vaccines are related to some of those things. Yeah. And let me be very clear with what I just said, because people love to put words in my mouth. I'm not saying that I believe definitively that they are causing all those things. I'm just reiterating and mirroring what you're saying is that we actually just don't know. And I'm encouraging again. Yes, I love, I love that you just said that

that you're not encouraging people to do one way or the other. You just want to open the doors for discussion because the more people that are talking about this and the more that we shine light into this darkness, because right now there's this, it's this like dark, untouchable conversation we're not even allowed to have and it just lives in the shadows. We're never going to get to the truth if it lives in the shadows. So the first step of determining in this is we need to shine a light on it. We need to make it normal and acceptable and safe and okay for us to even have these conversations, because that's how we eventually get to a point as society where it's okay to start questioning these things

and then have real science be done. And that's ultimately like what my goal is with this too. And I hope in 20 years, this is a very different conversation. I'm sitting here and we're talking about the new research that we found and the new study is that we're looking into this, we finally know that it's related to this and it's not related to that. I mean, that's what I ultimately want. And that's where I go back to it, just read or reset, like, I'm not saying it's related either.

I don't know. So I can't answer the question appropriately. And I should be able to answer the question appropriately when I'm giving kids vaccines and I'm giving them 30 vaccines and a parent says to me, I'm concerned, I'm worried about side effects. Should I do this? I should be able to vaccines and a parent says to me, I'm concerned, I'm worried about side effects, should I do this? I should be able to give them a very definitive answer. Here is the benefits, here is the risks,

choose what you think. We don't have that and if we can't talk about it, we're never gonna get it. And if it's so controversial to say, look at the research at vaccines and autism, we need more. We're never gonna get more and I'm not gonna be able to give you a good answer. And it starts with actually just talking about it,

and maybe people proving that it has nothing to do with it. Great, I'm totally fine with that. I'm totally fine with 100,000 vaccines if they don't cause any problems. I have no problem with that. I want to know that for my own kids. And they don't. I mean, honestly, it would be so amazing

if we figured that out, because then it, yeah, if we just found out that it wasn't them at all, then we could just go on with life and not have to worry about this facet of it because there is a concern, like you said, that if we do learn this and then like these disease rates come back and they get high, it's like, what are we going to do? But we're going to have to face that, you know, as it comes. But what an amazing thing to find out that it doesn't, that they're not caused by vaccines. What do we want to know that,

like what if some new disease comes out and we could have a vaccine that could protect you and that would be great and people just don't want to do it because they're too afraid of the COVID vaccine and other vaccines and they just don't take it and then a bunch of people die and your kids die. Like that's not what we want either. I want confidence in vaccines.

I want confidence in the side effects. I want to know that the companies are doing a good job to study it safely. So when the next thing comes out, if we need to take a new vaccine or there is a new vaccine or it's presented, you're going to feel comfortable that the research that I'm presented is research and it's information and I can trust it and I can make an informed decision. You don't know what's coming in the future. We don't know what kind of super bug is going to show up that you have a 50% chance of dying. I don't know, like maybe there will be a vaccine

that will be very useful for something like that. But no one's gonna do it if they don't trust the CDC and they don't trust the establishments and nobody trusts them right now. I mean, how many people are getting COVID vaccines even though it's still recommended? It's like 10% of kids and 25% of adults. It's not very many.

So people clearly don't trust the recommendations anymore. Yeah, and that's a huge problem because you're so right. It's like down the line. Because we need to have confidence in our pharmaceutical companies and our medical system. It's incredibly important. Like you said, if something comes out later down the line, I mean, COVID did a real number on us.

Let me tell you, I already had my concerns and distrust, but after COVID, wow, do I not trust anything that comes out of the medical establishment right now. But what if we need something? It might be different next time. Exactly, and I very much recognize that. And I think that it is a huge concern that we have such low trust in our medical system

because we should be able to trust that we can go to them for good, good, solid advice. Just honesty. That's it. I don't know where it happened in medicine that you couldn't just say, I don't know. There's nothing wrong with saying, we don't know the long-term risks. Here's what we know.

Yes. That's what we need. That's it. We don't need to know everything. We just need to get the best research we can and we need to force companies to get good science and data so we can trust it because otherwise they're going to just bring out some other vaccine for a newborn baby, another one for a two-month-old, another one for a year old. We're going to have vaccines for everything. And at some point that's going to cause a problem. It's not already.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's like, where does it stop? So before we wrap this up, I just want to ask if there's anything in the book or just anything about this conversation that we didn't cover that you feel like is important for people to hear? Um, we can talk about vaccines forever, but I I think to be at the end of the day if we're gonna finish with anything It's it's okay to ask questions You should not feel like you're woo-woo or out there some sort of crazy anti-vaxxer because you have a question about vaccines If you are doing something to your beautiful healthy baby Especially 20 or 30 or something You should have questions about that if you were giving them a pill if you were taking them to a program to your beautiful, healthy baby, especially 20 or 30 or something,

you should have questions about that. If you were giving them a pill, if you were taking them to a program, whatever it is, if you're doing that to your kid many, many times, you should have questions about that. It's not crazy to do that. You shouldn't feel bad about it. We should all be talking about it. We should all be asking questions.

You should feel comfortable talking about it with your doctor. You should feel comfortable doing it if you're going to do it. And we're not going to get there until we open up this conversation. And that is why I wrote the book. I want this conversation. I'm glad that we're having it. I could not do this just even a few months ago. It seems like most people are willing to talk about it.

At least a lot of more people are willing to talk about it. And I hope that people will continue to have these discussions because that's how we will get safer products. Yeah, absolutely. I love that. Just encourage people to have more conversations and ask questions. And with your friends and your family,

you try to open up discussion about this because I think it's been hammered into us for the last five years or so that it is so dangerous to just ask a simple question. And I don't believe that at all. This is how ideas flourish in society. When you open up and you have honest discussions about things, it's not a bad or dangerous thing. You learn something. You do. I mean I started the book with

that with the joke of like vaccines it's like you know Fight Club except it's like Vaccine Club. You can't talk about vaccines. It's like why? The one rule. Why am I a pediatrician not allowed to talk about vaccines? Why do I have to be worried about it? That makes no sense. Exactly. And normalize, like you said, saying, you know what? I actually don't know. That would give me more confidence than my doctor just being like, absolutely not. Like I said earlier with the birth control, if my doctor had just been honest with me and said,

you know what? We actually don't know if that's going to if that's like a side effect or not, then I could have been like, okay, consciously now, like, do I feel comfortable with my doctor not knowing about these side effects? Do I still feel comfortable moving forward with taking this or not? And that's how you actually have an informed consent decision. Correct. I mean, that's how everything else is. And it's not the way that it is with vaccines. And that has to change.

Yeah, absolutely. Joel, thank you so much for coming on. Please let everybody know where they can find your book and also where they can find you. Thank you for everything that you're doing. Thanks for having me on. Most people find me at Dr. Joel Gator on Instagram or X or you could find the book Between a Shot and a Hard Place. You can get it anywhere books are sold, Amazon or theshotbook.com. Thank you so much for having the courage to not only write this book, but ask the questions, put yourself out on the line. And I know that it's definitely becoming safer to talk about it, but it still is kind of

one of those things where you have to have some courage around it. And I just want to honor you and say thank you for having the courage to talk about it and ask questions. Oh, yeah, everyone has their comments on this stuff. Yeah, doesn't matter which side you don't make anybody happy when you talk about vaccines. It's important. You're doing something I think that's incredibly courageous and incredibly important. So thank you so much.

Thank you. Mike Frye. Theme song is by Georgie. You can watch the full video version of this podcast inside the Spotify app or on YouTube. As always, you can leave us a voicemail by clicking the link in our bio. And if you like this episode, please rate and review on your podcast app. For more shows by my team, go to wellnessloud.com. See you next time. The content of this show is for educational and informational purposes only. It is not a substitute for individual medical and mental health advice and doesn't constitute a provider-patient relationship I am a nutritionist, but I am not your nutritionist. As always talk to your doctor or your health team first If you struggle with bloating gas constipation digestive issues yeast overgrowth Well, you may already know about digest this it's the podcast hosted by me

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