Realfoodology - Seed Oils Are the Problem with Dr. Anthony Gustin

Episode Date: June 15, 2022

98: I recently met Dr. Anthony Gustin, DC, MS, CSCS, CCSP, CFL1 at a Regenerative Farm conference and learned so much from him in the small time we spent together I had to bring him on the podcast! He is the founder of Perfect Keto & Equip Foods, host of The Natural State Podcast, and author of the best-selling Keto Answers. Former sports rehab clinician turned entrepreneur, amateur farmer, trained in functional medicine and ordered labs and set treatment plans for hundreds of patients. We dive into seed oils (canola, vegetable, rapeseed, sunflower, etc) and why they are so bad for us, the argument for “older” meat and what that means, what a species correct diet looks like and so much more Check Out Dr. Anthony: https://www.zeroacre.com/ https://dranthonygustin.com/ https://www.instagram.com/dranthonygustin/ https://www.instagram.com/joyfieldfarm/ https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-natural-state-with-dr-anthony-gustin/id1341848099 Check Out Courtney: Courtney's Instagram: @realfoodology www.realfoodology.com Air Dr Air Purifier AquaTru Water Filter EWG Tap Water Database Further Listening Achieving True Health and Vitality with Dr. Tyler Jean

On today's episode of The Real Foodology Podcast. Corporations want to make money and they don't care about your health. They're not incentivized to. Why would they? And so I think the more you can just get involved in the food system by meeting with local farmers and buying your food from where you live, that's how this gets better for you. Hey, welcome back to another episode. I am your host, Courtney Swan, and you are listening to The Real Foodology Podcast.

Today's guest is Dr. Anthony Gustin. We actually met a couple weeks ago because we were both in Fredericksburg for this regenerative farming conference. If you guys follow me on Instagram, you know that I went down there to just learn more about regenerative farming. It was with Force of Nature. If you guys are unaware of them and their meats, I would highly recommend checking them out. They have amazing grass-fed, pasture-raised organic meats that come from their regenerative ranch.

It's called Rome Ranch and it's outside of Austin, Texas. I met Anthony while I was down there through a mutual friend and I learned so much from him in the short amount of time that we chatted that I told him that I just needed to bring him on the podcast. This is one of those episodes where I learn so much. I always learn from my guests and I'm always so blown away by everything that I learn in these podcasts. But this one in particular, there's a lot of stuff that Anthony talks about that I have not even thought about in this food space yet. And I really, I love what he's doing right now in the food space. I try to keep these intros pretty short. So you will learn more about what he's doing in the episode.

And more importantly, we didn't really get to go over this, but I want to point this out. So Anthony is involved in a company called Zero Acre, and they're working on trying to provide healthier alternatives to seed oils. So definitely check them out. I'm going to leave a link in the show notes for that. And most importantly, in this episode, we dive really deep into seed oils, canola oil, rapeseed, sunflower oil, et cetera. We are seeing these more than ever pop up in our food. And we really dive into why these are unhealthy for us and why we want to avoid them. We also talk about the feed that we give to our chickens and pigs. So even when they say corn and soy-free, they're actually still getting vegetable oils, which is really not great for them. And we

dive more into that. So let's just get into the episode. Shall we? As always, if you're enjoying the podcast, if you could leave a rating and review, it would help me so much. And I just really appreciate your support. Imagine having a metabolic coach in your pocket that you could access at any point, any time in the day, whenever you want. That's what Lumen is. Lumen is the world's first handheld metabolic coach. It's a device that measures your metabolism through your breath. And on the app, it lets you know if you're burning fat or carbs and gives you tailored guidance to improve your nutrition, workout, sleep, and even stress management. I have so many podcast episodes about metabolic flexibility and why it is so incredibly important for your overall health

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actually met recently at the Force of Nature Regenerative Farming Conference. And I was so excited about some of the conversations that you and I were having that I was like, I need to bring you on the podcast because everything you and I were talking about are things that I talk about a lot on the podcast. So for everyone listening, why don't you give them a little bit of background on you and what you do? Yeah, that's been a tough thing to answer, I guess. Every couple of years it changes dramatically. But my training is as a chiropractor. So I'm a doctor and chiropractor, chiropractic and masters in sports rehab and was doing that for a while and switched to more functional medicine work. And then from that, just was trying to figure out how to help more people.

So launched some businesses that took off. So switch from functional medicine provider to online entrepreneur type person. And then from that, I made a shift recently to be a small farmer. So I have no idea what I'm doing. But that's kind of the brief background. No, but it sounds like you do know what you're doing. And you've done a lot of really cool, amazing stuff. I recently found out that you had started Perfect Keto. And I'm a huge fan of those cookies. Cookies are great. Bars are great. Cookies are great. The Nola bars,

it's one of the last products that I developed. So I was pretty maniacal about the product development and man, those things are crazy. I mean, they're basically like candy bars, but way healthier. So I mean, they're good substitutions, definitely still treats and I prefer people to eat real food.

And I think that's always a caveat or people think I'm some like fake food shill or something. And I mean, I'm the first one to say every single time, like these are treats. These are not real food products, like eat real food. And then if you want to have these on or, you know, if people are trying to make a shift, then it's great, but just thought it's worth throwing that caveat out there. Yeah. And I think this is really important because more than ever, now that health is really getting on the map, um, we're just seeing this influx of all these processed foods. I mean, I went to the, um, natural foods

expo a couple months ago and every year I go, I'm just so surprised by all of this stuff that's packaged as super healthy. And then you turn it around and it's still like all this processed garbage and it's really confusing for people that are trying to eat healthy it's very common i mean expo west what you're talking about is people who don't know it's this enormous warehouse with 10 000 plus exhibitors of all these brands who are showcasing their new products for retail buyers and for the industry and it yeah yeah, I've gone, I don't know, five, six years. And it is a sad scene typically where it's just the latest trend and people trying to sell things as something that they absolutely are not. And generally people don't need us like trying to find a new way to

sell people. Something is generally what the whole thing and that and like most health products are are that as well. I think that there's some really great genuine brands that I love to support that are actually trying to solve problems for people and make stuff that doesn't exist in the first place. But then there's just a lot of, I think, unnecessary stuff going on. Yeah, absolutely. And there's a ton of seed oils. This is really what gets me. So there's a lot of products that are packaged as being super healthy. And then you turn it around and it has like sunflower oil or canola oil. And I know this is something you feel very passionately about. So what is the deal with seed oils? Like why, why are they so unhealthy for us? Yeah. So seed oil, people who don't know

are oils typically made from seeds. Don't have to be, but generally made from seeds, corn, canola, cotton seed, soybean, sunflower, safflower, rapeseed, grapeseed, rice bran. These are the oils that you want to avoid. And the reason why is a couple of different reasons, but generally speaking, all fats are made up of fatty acids. So there's like proteins made up of amino acids. There's a building blocks that make up the fats. And historically humans have eaten certain fats, our entire human history. And now this is changing dramatically with this new fat that we've made. So these are industrial processed fats. So

we can not get these without enormous machinery that costs tens of millions of dollars to press seeds and then refine through this crazy multi-step process with a bunch of chemicals to then get this flavorless odorless thing that never existed in nature and the the biggest thing is one of these fatty acids linoleic acid is very problematic and so we've eaten historically about two to 3% of our fat comes from linoleic acid in a lot of these seed oils, like sunflower, which actually ironically sounds the best. And so it's like, Oh, sunflower, those are both good things. Sunflowers look pretty. It must be a natural thing. Great. And I mean the same with the branding of vegetable oil,

it's like a very good branding play. Yeah. That's why I like co-opting it to seed oil. So it sounds less healthy and yeah, it's just, we're eating now 25% of our calories as Americans from vegetable oils and sunflower soybean, especially our 80% linoleic acid. So we're getting 40 times the amount in these fats than we've ever consumed in human history. That's crazy. Which is not good. I've been talking about this topic for, I don't know, the first podcast I did on it was four years ago. I tried to start a company in this space like seven years ago, but technology wasn't there. But I actually just released in my podcast, natural state, a two part episode with Tucker

Goodridge, who I think is one of the best people in the world, one of the best experts in the world that know about this stuff. And we've sort of broke it down over about five hours of the science on why these things are so bad. And so I can give a brief overview here. And if anybody really wants to nerd out, they can go dig into Tucker's work and listen to the podcast that I did with them. But there's a variety of reasons why these fats are not good for us. So when you're looking at saturated fats, the way the chemical compound looks is basically a squiggly line and they all look the same. And so no matter how long the chain of the fat is, they can all stack on top of each other. And because they can do that, that's why at room temperature, it's a solid fat

because they're all stacked on top of each other. When we're looking at the different types of fats, monounsaturated and polyunsaturated, polyunsaturated just means multiple unsaturated parts of the molecule. So the chemical compound now starts looking a little twisty and bendy. And those things slip and slide over each other, but more importantly, can oxidize very easily. And so I don't know how much background your audience has on, you know, oxidation and flow of electrons and free radicals and why these are not good things, but, um, generally people here in the health space, like, Oh, we want all these antioxidants and oxidation is just something where it basically takes electrons from your body and starts causing some havoc in your cellular processes. And so think about basically polyunsaturated fatty acids, especially from seed oils, like firecrackers in your body,

where like they auto oxidize. So they oxidize on their own. They don't need any special reaction. And then they start creating this chain reaction and creating all this inflammation in your body via this, this process of oxidation. This is just one of many, many, many mechanisms. Um, another thing that I think is really important to highlight is almost all chronic diseases, which is sort of what fascinated me a lot of this, like, why have we had this explosion of chronic disease? And when you start digging into it, every single one has this root of mitochondrial dysfunction so again i don't know where your audience is at but mitochondria these things in your cells that they create all of the power all the energy that powers all of your body and looks like every single chronic disease we're looking at, whether it's diabetes, even obesity, cancer,

neurodegenerative disease, heart disease, et cetera, sort of have this shared thing where you have mitochondrial dysfunction. I used to think in sort of my background with ketogenic diet, that a lot of that was from overconsumption of simple carbohydrates. Your body was taking too much, couldn't process it, all these other, you know, it's very specific things that we don't need to get into the very deep chemistry of it. but turns out that when I'm starting to learn more of now that these specific fatty acids start replacing a lot of the mechanisms in the mitochondria. And again, Tucker and I go into this in depth in my podcast, it can get very dry and nerdy at times, but if people really want to know, um, and your body can no longer make the same energy the same way. Um, so the efficiency of your mitochondria and how it

makes energy that your body can use for all these critical processes starts downregulating dramatically. Wow. Not good. Um, another thing is, so you think about your cells like a big beach ball and the outer layer of that beach ball it's called a phospholipid bilayer so lipid is fat so the outside of all of your cells are made of fat this is one of the reasons why low-fat diets are not a great idea for a variety of reasons they make up your hormones nervous nervous tissue cells, et cetera. So you need high quality fats to have this integrity of this sort of beach ball of your cell. And you have all these receptors and locking key mechanisms and channels on your cell so that the cells can send signals to other cells, communicate, do different things. When you start replacing that phospholipid bilayer with these poor quality fats, it goes from this nice, big, open beach ball sort of shape to

think about like a newspaper crumpled up. So you have all these crevices and you have all these receptors that no longer can be communicating with other cells. And so you start blunting the communication between the cells you know this is like a very oversimplified version obviously but i think it's helpful for people to get more of a visual of how this stuff happens and yeah so that's another reason another one that tucker goes into quite a lot so in scientific journals there are so like when people do research and they say oh here's a study they typically are contained in journals and so when people release research they release it in like thematic versions i was like hey here's this journal with 500 studies about this one topic

there are multiple journal episodes dedicated to the downstream metabolites of linoleic acid. So there's tons of toxic metabolites. And the word toxic gets thrown around quite a lot. And I think people are a little sick of it. But this is by definition toxic. This is killing you, these metabolites. The mechanisms are very clearly understood. There's 4-HNE, 4-hydroxynonxy nonanol, nine ho, 13 ho, et cetera. There's all these aldehydes that are formed

from cooking these specific compounds. And there's thought to be hundreds, if not thousands of these literal toxic metabolites that are produced from eating these oils. So again, the list goes on and on and on i think that's probably enough to start convincing people like okay mechanistically there's a lot there uh this new project that i'm working on it's called xeric or farms we're basically trying to do a lot of what i did in the early days of perfect keto which was create the go-to content database on keto when we first started putting content out, there was nothing that existed. And so like, okay, well let's create sort of like go-to spot if anybody wants to know anything about this. And so we're doing the same thing with seed oils. So I should just published

our first, we'll call our white paper. So we got a bunch of the top experts in the world together and basically made what I consider to be better than a research paper. So that's 40 pages long, a little intense for some people, but talking about all of these things, but also how it impacts obesity. So when we look at obesity, heart disease, cancer, neurodegenerative disease, advanced macular degeneration, all of this stuff, it looks like a primary cause could be this species inappropriate levels of this, these fats that we've never eaten in our entire human history and are not eaten eaten it's like when you look at the curves of for example when we took the data after smoking was out for a while and we put it over incidents of smoking

and incidents of lung cancer it looks very similar when we put together obesity, diabetes, heart disease, and CEDAR consumption. And we have that data again, like I know that correlation is not causation for sure, but that was one of the first things that we saw with smoking that allowed us to go back and be like, okay, let's understand the mechanisms because something here is going on. And the same thing, what we're finding with seed oils is happening here where every time a country introduces these into their food system, rates of obesity, heart disease, cancer, diabetes start going through the roof. And this is something that I took a trip to see this hunter-gatherer tribe

last year in Tanzania called the Hadza tribe. And my friend and I, we've been obsessed with like, what is the root cause of all these chronic diseases? What's going on? I was sort of like getting out of the carbohydrates, the primary thing, because we would see all these people in these villages who were outside of where the tribe lived that were subsisting purely on cornmeal. Really? Yeah, only basically Ugali, which is what they eat a lot there, which is cornmeal.

And they were all very old, very healthy, very fit, beautiful teeth, beautiful body composition. And they were eating a lot of this cornmeal. It wasn't until they started getting into the cities or even like the bigger village where like we saw tubs and tubs and tubs of this rancid weird just like the most disgusting vegetable oils that i've ever seen in my life and they cooked everything in it and then like it's like you'd walk across the street basically.

So these villages that are only eating a golly. So it's basically like you have larger towns that have a little bit more sort of industrial things, roads, power, et cetera. And you have these fringe, no power,

no infrastructure villages that are like in extreme poverty. And then you have like the hunter gatherer tribes as kind of like this spectrum of living and the people again that were only eating the ugali or obviously the hunter-gatherers they both actually had very similar health which was shocking to us like we were expecting that the hunter-gatherers to be like the fittest of the bunch and all this but the people just subsisting on cornmeal totally fine like not a lot of variety of their nutrients not a lot of food overall like their diets were very poor their lifestyle was like completely impoverished but then when you go to the cities and the only thing

we saw change that's not like they were eating tons of packaged food they were just cooking all of their food in these like weird brown tubs of vegetable oils everything and they were now obese on like very unhealthy looking like their skin was not good you just you know you look at somebody you're like okay something like you have a huge inflammatory load everyone and there was very little difference between those two traps and so again i have to say like i that that is the reason why i think this that's why we're pulling together all these crazy reports talking about the mechanism of all these different conditions but overall it to me is pretty

unequivocal again i don't think that there is with with biology it's a complex system you're not gonna have one cause of these things it It's multifactorial. You're going to have primary, secondary causes, things like that. And I think for a lot of health conditions going on right now, uh, seems to me that seed oils are a primary driver. Okay. This is fascinating because I, like you got into the keto space. Um, I mean, I've been talking about sugar for like 10 years now as being the real driving force of cardiovascular disease, diabetes, like you name it, all the chronic diseases that we're seeing. But I actually wanted to ask you about this because I've been seeing, and I know you kind of, I think you're kind of in the carnivore camp a little bit. I'll let you

speak to that. But I've been seeing this trend in the carnivore camp where they're all telling people to start eating honey and more fruits and sugar is not the devil that we made it out to be. And is this partially because we're starting to realize that it's actually seed oils and it's not sugar? Do you want to hear the biggest discovery of our time for promoting healthy aging? Of course you do, because all of us are concerned about aging. There is a class of ingredients called senolytics that were discovered less than 10 years ago, and they are being called the biggest discovery of our time for promoting healthy aging and enhancing your physical prime. Now, when I'm talking about aging here, I'm not just talking

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and use code realfoodology for 20% off. Again, that's Organifi. It's O-R-G-A-N-I-F-I.com slash realfoodology. The way I think about it is that there's the main things we went awry with in health and nutrition. So like, I think of health again, as multifactorial. So like there's, there's nutrition, which I think is the biggest thing that leads to health issues, but there's also stress, trauma, community, sleep movement. Like there's a lot of things that go into the bucket to make up your actual health and vitality. Environmental toxins too. Yeah, of course.

There's an enormous amount of things, a huge list that you could point to. So let's just acknowledge that that nutrition itself is one bucket. And then within nutrition, the way I view it is like there's three main things that are problematic. And then beyond that, you have a ton of nuance for the individual,

but it's refined carbohydrates, sugars, refined grains, like a white flour and refined fats, which are the oils that we're talking about. And when you look at how long they impact people, they, you know, when you consume a sugar if you have if you're wearing for example like a continuous blood glucose monitor you can see the spike and you can see your blood sugar return back to normal and so even if it spikes up to 250 and then comes back down to 80 or wherever you're at like okay like maybe i feel this energy crash and it's like a three-hour thing

if you eat wheat and like refined flour some people have a response some people don't but it can you know there's a lot of evidence that shows it can impact blood brain barrier gut tight gap junctions things like that create gut dysfunction but those areas typically heal within like a week to 10 days the thing with the seed oils and why it can be so problematic is because you eat the seed oil and it gets embedded into your tissues, nervous tissues, cells, et cetera, fat tissue for minimum of two years, up to five years. And so if you keep eating this stuff and eating this stuff and eating this stuff, your body just has no time to get rid of it and so it's a compounding effect that stays with you no matter what basically in until you remove it all completely from your diet and like i'm trying to develop a test right now where people can do an at-home thing to figure out where they're at in that spectrum and how they can sort of

weave in and out of this and i tested myself i'm like it doesn't look great which is unfortunate i'm like i'm trying to figure out like okay like how do i adjust these levels of myself and it's been a journey for me i just find it really interesting and i think within each of those buckets of you know what i think to be problematic or not really like when you take an organism out of its natural environment you're going to have issues and i think like the more you process a food the worse it's likely going to be for humans this is a very simple heuristic that i've had a really hard time finding any counter examples to and so for example that someone just asked me earlier today like what about my

friend who puts flax seeds in her smoothie and loves those? Are those as bad? Like, of course, flax seeds in their whole form are not as bad as, for example, you need 4,000 soybeans to get one tablespoon of oil. And you need a ridiculous amount of processing capacity via machines and all that stuff. And they do this weird thing where they take out the odor. And so when you have, like when fish goes bad, for example, that's polyunsaturated fatty acids going bad. And you smell that fishy smell is actually just poof is going rancid. With the oils, they deodorize them. So that way when they go rancid, you can't smell anything.

That's crazy. So people are consuming rancid oils and they don't even know it. Yeah. And so again, like even if seeds started going rancid, you made some seed meal, like you can smell when that goes bad. You remove that mechanism and there's a spectrum from like okay like i went outside and picked these seeds off of a thing to like i got the seeds in bulk from this industrial farm to all the way to the other end i have this jug of rancid flaxseed oil and so with all this stuff sugar included i think that there's

an infinite spectrum and i don't like yeah i've seen some of the carnivore people like talking about how you should be literally drinking coca-cola which is i think frankly absurd and yeah they play this game generally like i think the same with the crypto community which i support carnivore i'm not a carnivore type of person myself. I think they have a lot of good things that they're trying to popularize. Same with crypto, which big supporter of. But I think like when you start publishing things online that are controversial

and you sort of build this thing on shock and awe, and then you start losing the ability to get like, you keep looking for things that are i think a little ridiculous and i think that that's what's going on with some of this like drink coca-cola because it's good for you now like i think that fruit is a complex thing because we've gone so far away from what fruit naturally is there's a phenomenal book called, uh, eating in the wild side, I think is what it is by Joe Robinson. And she breaks down basically like here's every single plant like produce and, and like vegetable and fruit. And here's how far we've gone away from them, from our historical foods. And then even talks about like here, like with apples, for

example, the smaller they are, the more antioxidants and polyphenols are in the actual apple and blueberries if they're like this then you should look like it's a phenomenal resource i mean it's very dense but we've just manipulated fruit so much to be overly sweet that i think it's tough to say unequivocally like, yeah, humans should eat or have orange juice or tons of whatever, because it's so, it's so challenging. Uh, generally I think like eating locally, eating seasonally is just like a really easy filter to put on people. So they can go, Oh, what can I buy from a farmer's market? And even if it is stuff that is genetically modified and they're getting

these huge melons when they should be super small or apples that are giant when they should be tiny crab apples, they're only getting them for four or three or four months max before they, you know, maybe go to more of a ketogenic diet and then get out of that. And, you know, even nuts is a big one where it's another question I get all the time. Like, well, nuts are high in polyunsaturated fatty acids. Yeah, they are. a there are a lot of reasons why this would make sense in in nature nuts are also one of the only foods that contain carbohydrate and fat in high amounts the only other food is dairy when when do dairy and nuts occur when things should either grow really fast or get really fat. And coincidentally, if you look at equatorial foods and nuts, they're very saturated, almost no linoleic acid. So

macadamia nut, for example, the more Northern or Southern you get in the latitude, you get higher amounts of linoleic acid and polyunsaturated fatty acid, which makes sense for the plant because as it's colder, the plant needs to have certain metabolism. And so it needs these polyunsaturated fatty acids to move around in cold weather, just like a fish in cold water as high in omega-3 because it needs to move its tissues and its muscles to swim. And so a really cool thing that nature has done with, especially mammals in Northern and Southern latitudes, like the more you go winter's there so these nuts drop off the plants already have this it's an advantage for the animals in cold seasons to eat nuts and fall to get fat and we know this mechanistically that especially when you combine linoleic acid from seed oils, nuts, et cetera, and carbohydrate, it is the most fattening combination that you can have with foods.

High linoleic acid, high carbohydrate. I never knew that. But it makes, it makes sense again, from for a squirrel, if it's October and they're chowing down at a bunch of stuff to transiently slow down the metabolism, basically have like a transient diabetic response. So that way it can store all his fat and then doesn't eat it again for eight, eight plus months. Yet what we're doing is eating it all year round.

Yeah. We have buckets and buckets of these nuts and seeds that we're just consuming ridiculous amount. Not even to talk about the seed oils but this is where i think it's just like again there's an infinite amount of nuance and if you look at things from like locally here we have a lot of pecans in texas they only drop very small amount of the year and if i had to go out and bust all the shells up and to get this food myself i'm probably going to expend as much energy as it's going to take to eat the nut yeah they're paying the ass and so this is the

thing that are you going to depend on an enormous industrial pecan farm or now you're getting pounds of pecans for no work like that's never happened in nature ever before even even like squirrels and stuff need to peck through things and get, and get through to eat the nuts. Yeah. They have to work for their food. And also I think what you said, uh, you made a really great point that the difference between these seed oils versus eating the nuts in their whole real form is that we're eating them as nature intended us to eat them with the carbohydrates and everything else in there. Whereas like, if we're just, um, we're mechanically pressing these oils out of seeds that were not really meant to produce oils in the first place, we're messing with our food. And then as a result, of course, we're going to not be as healthy

because we're not eating it in a way that nature intended us to eat it in the vehicle that we were supposed to eat it. Yeah. You think you're supposed to get fat out of a cotton seed? No, I mean, well, and think about soybeans. Like you said, it takes X amount of soybeans to get, well, like a tablespoon of oil. And this is what I try to explain to people. It's the same thing with the canola oil, which is actually rapeseed. And that was a genetically modified seed. And we were never supposed to be consuming that oil in the first place, but it is such a process to get oil out of those seeds. If people knew the lengths that they is such a process to get oil out of those seeds. If people knew the lengths that they had to go just to get oils out of those seeds, it would be horrifying.

Yeah. I mean, there's some videos online. If you Google how it's made canola oil on YouTube, enjoy. It's disgusting. And I think that it's tricky for people because they, you start looking at labels and even all these foods that you're talking about that are trying to be healthy, sunflower, canola, you know, all of these, all of these foods have seed oils in them. Yeah. But I think where it gets people the most are at restaurants where it's in 99.9% of the things that you're eating at a restaurant. And it's generally the worst form because it's the cheapest and they're heating it over and over and over and over again. And it's like out in plastic bottles all the time. It's the worst. And so sorry to break it to people who listen. There's maybe like 12 restaurants in the US that

are very vocal about, yeah, we don't use seed oils. Well, and the problem is, is a lot of times they'll say that they're using olive oil, but they're cutting the olive oil with canola or sunflower or something cheaper. So you're not even usually getting pure olive oil. Yeah. Do you know why that is? Uh, something with like the, the Italian mafia, right? I mean, I'm sure to some degree, but generally

kitchens are very functional functional it's cheaper yes but primarily because i've actually talked to a lot of chefs about this and we're we're a culture now obsessed with liquid fats and we have restaurants that prep a lot and same thing we're talking about before like more saturated the fattest heart it'll be harder at room temp or refrigerated and so if a restaurant's prepping like a bunch of caesar dressing or sauces or whatever and it's pure olive oil pure olive oil actually a significant amount of saturated fat and they put in the fridge it gets hard and they can't use it and so they can't prep ahead of time and it's a pain in the ass for them to be able to prepare for the evening if they don't have a fat that stays liquid at, um, refrigerated

temperatures. Makes sense. But just put the, put the dressing out when you first get into work, you know, like, yeah, but I get it. I get it. There's something else that I really want to talk about. And it's kind of in the same vein because we're still, uh, well, actually I have two questions. One, um, so the, the ratio of omega-6s to omega-3s, is that a concern with the seed oils? And then I also want to talk about how we are still feeding chickens and all of these, um, all of our livestock, basically corn, wheat, and soy, and we're messing with the fat profile in their fat. And so we're now consuming higher amounts of omega-6s. I want to talk about that too. Yeah. So first question, omega-3 to 6 ratio. This is something that has been very popular, especially with the paleo

community. The thing you'll generally hear is like, we used to be like a three to one ratio of omega-6 to omega-3 and now we're like 20 to one so all you need to do is increase your omega-3 or balance out the ratio the ratio is effectively useless and it's the total amount of fat that you have because you're all those toxic metabolites i told you about earlier 4-h and e 9-0 13-0 aldehydes etc if you consume even a one-to-one ratio but you have a ton of the of the fatty acids your body has to do something with them it's not like they cancel out and disappear your body has to process them and processing linoleic acid in particular leads to all of these toxic metabolites and for example i mean one of the biggest things, we don't need to get into crazy tangent.

You should get like Dave Feldman or Tucker Goodrich talk about these topics. But we get doctors generally saying you should eat these polysaccharide fatty acids because they will drive LDL down, LDL cholesterol. So we are like obsessed with heart disease, atherosclerosis, LDL. And this is true. So we are like obsessed with heart disease, atherosclerosis, LDL. And this is true. A lot of evidence shows us, but we don't go to the next step and go,

well, why is that? And what's happening to LDL? And it turns out when you eat these oils, especially high in the linoleic acid, you need linoleic acid to turn LDL cholesterol to oxidized LDL cholesterol. And so you're actually taking the LDL from basically being like a fat transporter in your body to oxidized LDL, which is actually the thing that causes atherosclerosis and heart disease, which again, linoleic acid is required to make oxidized LDL. The people who found the molecule said that. Wow. And so yes yes we're lowering ldl but we're making the literal thing we need to create atherosclerosis and heart disease which is insane uh so that being said again you have that linoleic acid in your body no matter what the ratio is it's the absolute amount not the ratio the ratio is some bogus thing that was like an

observational thing, but totally irrelevant. So just forget about the ratio and lower omega-6. Like eating a ton of omega-3 is not going to do anything. There's some evidence that shows it lessens a little bit of the impact. And I think there's some, some mechanism for that, but omega-3 can also be very unstable and very hard to get. Fish is really expensive and getting really dirty. Yeah. I see. I'm sure you being coast, he's like, you know all about this, but like fish, clean fish, good wild caught fish is very hard to find. I'm not saying people shouldn't eat it, but if people are going to try to balance all their ratios by just eating a ton of fish, it's really challenging right now.

And not tons of populations have actually eaten a massive amount. There's a lot of studies that are starting to come out that show high doses of fish oil are actually really bad for people. So that was the first answer. The second one would be yeah the different areas of our food system so obviously when we go to eat we're getting blasted with these oils and what happens when we eat them again i said that like they accumulate in our body for up to two years the same thing happens in monogastric animals. So we have a digestive system where we have one stomach and most of what we eat turns into what we are. The same thing happens with pigs and chickens,

which we're eating way more of because people think that red meat is terrible for the environment and terrible for health, which is absolutely bananas. But we should talk about that too. Yeah. We record another three hours for that one that and so even pasture raised chickens and pigs are being fed corn and soy and what i've learned recently as of last time we chatted about this because i'm i we got chickens last week we're getting pigs next week at my farm. Even the corn-free, soy-free feeds have sunflower oil, which is one of the worst, and vegetable oils in them. Even the corn-free, soy-free ones are actually probably worse than the corn and soy ones

because now instead of just eating the real food in its real form kernels of it now you're getting the you're processing the oil and feeding the oil to the animals and so i'm in the process right now of basically we're figuring out how to mill our own stuff and i'm going to probably create like a line of feed for farmers who want to do this because i cannot find a corn-free, soy-free, seed oil-free feed, period. Even like the best organic ones, there's nowhere to find this stuff right now, which is insane. And I asked some feed mills, oh yeah, the animals need it.

The animals need the energy source. What are you talking? Animals have never eaten this stuff. When we look at, again again what humans should be consuming what humans should be made of one to three percent linoleic acid there's a study from the tokelauan tribe that's in polynesia they had they ate a lot of pigs and chickens their pigs and chickens one to three percent our pigs and chickens 25 plus percent for pigs 35 plus percent of linoleic acid for chickens this is two times worse than canola oil yeah it's nuts and again i want to like emphasize

farmers are doing their best they just have no idea like i'm the i'm the weird fringe person who's like crossed over from health obsession and this stuff to farming. Farmers are, farmers are incentivized to make money. Like making money as a farmer is nearly impossible right now. And so you, yeah. And we're paying subsidies,

sorry, for corn, wheat and soy. And so it's really cheap. And that's part of the problem. I've seen a couple of farms who are doing it very well, who I actually don't think wheat's a big deal for especially monogastrics. But what about the glyphosate?

I mean, yes, it's organic. Yeah, of course. I mean, caveat with if it's grown properly and not some crazy bastardized grain that is full of chemicals for sure, which is also hard to get, especially now. Yeah. And the couple of farms that I've seen doing things well are using the avenue,

use a decent amount of wheat. I mean, this is the issue here of like, there's a thing called carrying capacity on property. So if I were to raise, I don't know, 20 pigs, even,

which is a very small amount of pigs only on forage, I would need like 500 acres. Wow. That was, that was going to be my next question. Like, why can't we just let them graze? But you need a lot. Yeah. You need to provide them food because they're generally like a wild boar for example is right like the amount of land that they cover to get the nutrients that they need is crazy and the same with chickens and it's like you're also looking at the end end point of the animal very differently so for example chickens the main chicken breed, 99% of what people eat, it's called a Cornish cross. We've developed this chicken over time to get fat

specifically on corn and soy. And if you restrict corn and soy from the diet, they'll get sick and die. Why is that? Cause it has super like certain nutrients that they just need. It now depends on basically the exact amino acid and fatty acid profile of corn and soy to get as big and fat as possible, as fast as possible. They're also, so you, you put like a chicken on a scale and let's say it's six pounds or something. The Cornish crossbreed starts growing these weird connective tissue bundles because it's been, it's been engineered to not have high quality nutrition, obviously, but to get as big as possible, as fast as possible, eating as cheap as possible feed.

And so what actually happens is like the chicken breast for most of the chicken that people have eaten in a Cornish cross is made up of all this like non-digestible fiber, basically. It's not actually like digestible protein that's crazy and it's just because we've been messing with these chickens like they're just genetically we've played this game to try to get them way a lot because that's what we pay for but it doesn't mean that like we've looked at what the actual thing we're weighing is made of i mean this is just crazy and this is an argument for people listening to look for heirloom chicken which i'm seeing more of now but you want to get those heirloom um varieties of hens and chickens because we're messing with even our chickens now yeah i just think chickens are very

this i put out a tweet the other day it was something like my observation of what's needed to make things work on a farm and so for example produce requires a significant amount of water and compost or fertilizer so the plants can grow and there's some things you can do rotating around yeah but generally like you need a lot of water and you need a lot of fertile soil it's an extractive process chickens and pigs man they need so much feed and if you don't feed them they're just like basically small worthless little animals like the the energy input to raise the animals versus what you get out of nutrition is so awful and inefficient

and and also cost it's like if you pay 40 for a two pound chicken that doesn't really have that many nutrients in it it's like i mean, I haven't seen any comparison though. And this is some of the stuff that I want to do at my farm is like, we're getting three batches of pigs, for example, on Wednesday. And we're going to run one organic corn and soy, one corn free,

soy free, CTO free. And then one that has like, we're going to do supplemental protein and we're gonna feed them a bunch of leftovers from my friend's organic juice cafe so she presses out all this stuff yeah and then has all this leftover so we're gonna feed them that and then test their fatty acid nutrients all this stuff afterwards and looking like how big the animals get how long does it take because for a farmer they need to pay the bills and so they need the

animals to get to wait as fast as possible generally speaking because people want the lowest price and the farmers need to pay their bills and so like there's this game this economic game that as a farmer that they need to play by and their rule is that that demand these certain decisions to be made. But I think my hypothesis is that if I can figure out ways where if the chicken is two pounds, but cost $50, but is 10 times more nutritious as a $20 chicken, that's four pounds. Will people pay more for that? I hope so. I think so. And you can eat less of it. This is what people don't understand is that the more nutrient dense your food is, you can eat less of it and be more satisfied. Yeah. That's not a good sales pitch though. People want to eat. I know, but if people want to get healthy, you know, and I'm here trying to spread the truth,

but not everyone wants to hear it. Everyone's like, we don't want to hear that. I totally agree. And I think that we need to find ways where we can grow healthier food with less inputs. And I think that that's why I'm fascinated in this whole farming thing and why I moved out here a couple weeks ago. So I can literally, this is all I've been doing the last three weeks. It's amazing. Literally outside farming. And so I can figure out firsthand, firsthand like what the hell is going on here and why is this whole system broken i'm just kind of afraid like that like i need to like dive in

and do all the things to become the expert uh but yeah i'm i've already found so many really sad things that i'm hopefully going to start sharing a lot more of this stuff and have carve out time because it's a very full-time hands-on job which is great because i'm never on devices anymore and i love it but it's also like if i want to share it and i'm like have to be damn he like sit down and like write content and like be very intentional about it um so i'm gonna start doing that emailing things like that but i'm learning an enormous amount but hopefully we can start figuring out some ways and like getting other farmers interested in more nutrient dense food options

if consumers will pay more and that's another thing i want to test is like i think that the market shifts due to demand and if farmers can make more money by selling a superior product that might take a little bit longer or cost a little more for them to produce, they'll start making the shift over and we'll be able to have a much healthier food base because of it. I love this. I love so much what you're doing. And you talked about this recently on your Instagram and I had never heard this before. And so I'm assuming a lot of my listeners have not. What is the argument for quote unquote, older meat? You've been talking about this a lot where, you know, we're trying to fatten up these

chickens in a very short amount of time. And we do the same thing with our livestock. But I was blown away. You posted a photo just to give people context of two different steaks. And one had this really bright yellow fat on. I've never seen anything like it before. Can you explain what the deal is with that? So it actually, it was just the photo that I had taken. It was the first sentence is a joke. It's

not two different steaks. One's a pork chop. I said it was a hilarious joke, but regardless, steaks by side by side, I have a photo of it by actual steak. Like this stuff looks completely different. One of the things I noticed, i was in europe for a couple months last summer and every like fancy hipster high-end place from france sweden spain portugal was doing this like so typical cattle they're killed at like grain fed is like 12 to 16 months sometimes a little bit older grass feds like 16 to 22 months and this was like eight year 10 year 12 year old what breed it was where i grew up what you know the gender of it all this type of stuff it's like portlandia yeah i mean but like Yeah, I mean, it tastes incredible. And I had like a year old Brahma rooster, year old rooster. When we eat chickens, we slaughter chickens within 40 days of them being born. That's how long it takes for a chicken to get to weight.

So a one year old rooster. That's an old rooster. But it was the most delicious poultry I've ever eaten in my life. And I just think that when you have an appropriate palate for what tastes good, it's generally your body's telling you what nutrients are in it. And when you have an animal raised an appropriate way for a longer time, the same as you can bioaccumulate all of the negative stuff from eating a bunch of seed oils. The same thing happens with fat soluble nutrients and all these other chemicals that we are starting to measure now, phytochemicals, phytonutrients, tabulomics, all this type of stuff. So my hypothesis is that these animals that are

living much longer lives are condensed, raised in a proper way, not eating GMO, pesticide, wheat and all this stuff are much healthier much denser i mean the taste is there unequivocally the cuts of meat look completely different they don't even taste like the same food there's this researcher also that i want to get on my podcast soon you should get him on yours stefan van vliet i i don't think i can share a lot of his data that he's done yet, but this guy is sitting on mountains of data that I think can change the food industry. And a lot of it is about,

he's taking basically a chemical fingerprint of what grass-fed, monoculture grass-fed. So most grass-fed is actually the animals are basically an industrial feedlot that's just eating one type of grass to grain-fed, grain-finished, to a more regenerative model. The animals should be moving around

and having a very biodiverse forage. So they're not just eating one type of grass or eating hundreds of different plants. And he's saying that these three different categories chemically look like completely different foods. He's like, he showed me graphs of like, here's how we determine this and measure this. And like, they are just completely different food signatures, which is wild. That is wild. I mean, so what do we, so what's the solution? So for everyone listening, um, you know, the last hour we've gone over all these like horrible things about our food industry. What let's end it on like a hopeful note. Oh man. Hopeful note is that

farmers are amazing. And there's so many people doing cool stuff in this space. The farming community that I'm starting to get plugged into is like the most hopeful, excited, happy, loving people that I've ever met in my life. And we have people like that trying to make your food better. I think you're in good hands. I don't think you can trust anything that any institution says, unfortunately.

And I don't mean to be that guy after like COVID and everything, but generally speaking, like corporations want to make money and they don't care about your health they're not incentivized to why would they uh and so i think like the more you can just get involved in the food system by meeting with local farmers and buying your food from where you live the better the like that's how this gets better for you and there's an infinite rabbit hole that you can go explore here and hopefully you don't get overwhelmed by all the stuff that i'm

ranting about here the biggest thing is again like if you use eat locally and seasonally you don't have to master it all it's like it's this again this infinite spectrum an infinite journey like i'm learning stuff all the time and I've been obsessed with this stuff for 20 years. So I would say just connect with the food system. I think that there's, there's a huge missing part where even people who care about health and nutrition, when they miss out on the death of the animal butchering the animal and then cooking the animal and like sharing that as a meal it's like there's something lost when that doesn't happen or people like you you don't get the full cycle and appreciation for like local food and this

whole thing that i think should be a movement and hopefully it will be that i want to start doing more about our property as well and i mean realm ranch does this where they do the turkey harvest where people can come out butcher the animal but i want to take another more about our property as well. And I mean, Rome ranch does this where they do the Turkey harvest where people can come out, butcher the animal, but I want to take another step of like, can you butcher it? Now let's cook it on site and show you how to cook all of these things.

And so I think like, whether it's cooking stuff, butchering, hunting or killing animals, going to visit farms, talking to your farmer, going to farmer's markets, like the more you can be involved in the food system,

the more people we have involved in the food system, the more people we have bought into that and aware of that, I think that's how things progress with people's health. And that's how things progress with the actual food system. Like get involved. Yeah. Yeah, that's great. And then I would add one more thing on that.

And this is something I talk about all the time is support people that are producing food in the right way. And more specifically look for regenerative farms. There's more and more of them popping up. Um, and just like you, I left that force of nature, regenerative farm conference, feeling so inspired and hopeful because we met so many amazing people doing really cool things in the food space. And yeah, I mean, there's, I'm really excited because I think there's a lot more people waking up to how corrupt our food system is. And there's a lot of people wanting to change it. And it's going to take a lot of people to fix this problem that we're in. And I'm, I'm excited to see a lot of people doing really cool things. And I consider you one of those people that are doing a really amazing things in this space. Well, thank you. I think that with the Virginia thing, I would give a lot of people doing really cool things. And I consider you one of those people that are doing a really amazing things in this space. Well, thank you. I think that with the Virginia

thing, I would give a caveat of there's a lot of green Washington space. And I think that regenerative doesn't have a defined thing. I think everybody's throwing it out there. The best thing to do the farm is just go visit. And you as a human have enough intuition to like, know when you see it, it's kind of like porn, like, you know it when you see it it's kind of like porn like you know when you see it type of thing like you like okay like this crossed the line here um and the same thing with i think healthy or unhealthy food or ecosystems like your body just knows when the line is like i want to eat from this property versus another one like i've visited some farms here who claimed regenerative and terrible practices.

You go there and like, they do not rotate their animals and like the animals are living on a wasteland basically, and just like very poor conditions, but they make it seem really nice from the outside and they use these fancy words. And so again, like get involved, go visit, you know, if you have kids, go bring them out. I feel like I've never seen kids not love this stuff. But yes, it can be challenging. I'm starting to put together a free resource.

And the person helping out doing this, Kate, she has a podcast about all this stuff. It's called Groundwork Collective. So we're building up a bunch of people. So everything's totally free. So we built a farm finder. Spent a lot of my own money to get get the development going on this um but we've collected i think 2500 plus farms

that people can search by address and so if you want to go find farms near you just go to groundworkcollective.com you can search on there there's been some bugs and some issues but if you have any problems with it just send me a message or email somewhere and happy to point you in the right direction. Okay. Thank you so much for that resource. Um, I want to ask you a question, ask everyone before we go, what are your health non-negotiables? No matter how busy your day is, these are things that you prioritize for your health, no matter what. How long do I have? As long as you want i mean i think all the pillars that we're talking about before all the things that go into health like i probably

have something in each one of those if you were to actually think about the whole person like for me lately i mean it's been nutrition forever but i think that being off the screen and outside more than ever in my life is number one and i've been deliberate about that and like creating that lifestyle over the last couple months especially and i am so much happier and i have so much more energy just being outside all the time. And so I think like there's a couple of choices that when you make them, everything else becomes very easy and you have to make less and less choices. So for example, one person might say, Oh, sleep.

I have this sleep routine and it's like eight hours every night and blah, blah, blah. When doing manual labor all day there's no choice but sleeping eight hours and like deep sleep like that decision is made for you also like i crave normal foods i don't crave anything weird when i have that lifestyle thank you it just is one of these decisions where once you make it and stick to it it makes everything else so much easier at At least I have found that for myself. So that's probably the number one thing right now. I love that. That's amazing. Uh, for everyone listening, where can they find you? Um, I would say just search for my name and it'll come up anywhere. The farm I'm working on, it's called Joyfield Farm. And so you could find that. Instagram is where we're posting stuff right now. And then I have a podcast called The Natural

State and an email newsletter called The Feed that I put out somewhat regularly that I need to be better about. But yeah, that's where I am releasing some of the information now. So if you have any questions, feel free to hit me up on Instagram or Twitter. I'll answer whatever people ask. Awesome. Thanks so much. I'll answer whatever people ask. Awesome. Thanks so much. This was such an informative episode. Yeah, thanks for having me on.

Appreciate it. Thanks for listening to today's episode of The Real Foodology Podcast. If you liked this episode, please leave a review in your podcast app to let me know. This is a resident media production produced by Drake Peterson and edited by Chris McCone. The theme song is called Heaven by the amazing singer Georgie spelled with a J. Love you guys so much. See you next week. The content of this show is for educational and informational purposes only. It is not a substitute for individual medical and mental health advice and doesn't constitute a provider patient relationship. I am a nutritionist, but I am not your nutritionist. As always, talk to your doctor or your health team first.