Realfoodology - The Truth About Raw Milk, Fats, and Fertility | Sally Fallon

Episode Date: February 11, 2025

232: In this episode, I sit down with Sally Fallon Morrell, founding president of the Weston A. Price Foundation and author of Nourishing Traditions. Her book was required reading in my master’s nut...rition program, so this was a special conversation! We dive into ancestral nutrition, covering raw milk, healthy fats, and real foods that support fertility and overall health. As I navigate my own fertility journey, I was eager to learn what foods best promote conception and a healthy pregnancy. We also discuss the baby formula vs. breastfeeding debate with a compassionate and informed approach. Sally shares advice for moms who struggle with breastfeeding and natural alternatives for those who need them. Topics Covered: Why raw milk is beneficial The truth about healthy fats & butter Diet’s role in fertility & pregnancy Baby formula vs. breastfeeding Regenerative farming & traditional food prep Sponsored By: MANUKORA  Go to Manukora.com/REALFOODOLOGY to get $25 off the Starter Kit, which comes with an MGO 850+ Manuka Honey jar, 5 honey travel sticks, a wooden spoon, and a guidebook!  LMNT Get your free Sample Pack with any LMNT drink mix purchase at drinklmnt.com/realfoodology BIOptimizers  For an exclusive offer go to bioptimizers.com/realfoodology and use promo code REALFOODOLOGY Pique Get 20% off on the Radiant Skin Duo, plus a FREE starter kit including a rechargeable frother and glass beaker, with my exclusive link: Piquelife.com/Realfoodology  Paleovalley Save at 15% at paleovalley.com/realfoodology and use code REALFOODOLOGY Timestamps: 00:00:00 - Introduction 00:05:53 - Sally’s background and journey 00:08:28 - Bone broth and chicken soup benefits 00:11:03 - Baby formula, hormones, and cholesterol 00:14:40 - Infertility and nutrition’s role 00:17:23 - Fertility diet, low-fat myths, and subsidized foods 00:20:31 - Why eating fat is essential 00:23:37 - Commercial vs. regenerative farming 00:24:50 - Baby formula vs. breast milk 00:27:07 - How to support breast milk production 00:30:02 - Raw milk vs. grass-fed milk 00:31:42 - Fermented foods and gut bacteria 00:35:31 - Baby formula industry and lobbyists 00:37:45 - Homemade baby formula alternatives 00:39:20 - Why women struggle with breastfeeding 00:41:50 - Epidurals, fentanyl, and birth interventions 00:43:48 - Weaning foods, salt, and electrolytes 00:46:29 - When and how to introduce foods to babies 00:49:49 - Best first foods for infants 00:51:01 - Raw milk myths and lactose intolerance 00:54:02 - Common myths about fats 00:57:32 - Beef tallow, palm oil, and healthy fats 01:00:01 - Concerns about high-meat diets 01:03:45 - Debunking raw milk misconceptions 01:09:02 - Environmental impacts of farming 01:13:24 - Sally’s hopes for the future of nutrition Weston A Price Foundation:  Website Instagram Podcast  Sally Fallon Books  RealMilk.com NourishingTraditions.com Check Out Courtney LEAVE US A VOICE MESSAGE Check Out My new FREE Grocery Guide! @realfoodology www.realfoodology.com My Immune Supplement by 2x4 Air Dr Air Purifier AquaTru Water Filter EWG Tap Water Database Produced By: Drake Peterson

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Starting point is 00:00:00 on today's episode of The Real Foodology Podcast. Our nutrition decisions are being made by accountants. They're not being made by people who care for babies. Hi, guys. Welcome back to another episode of The Real Foodology Podcast. As always, I'm your host, Courtney Swan, and today's episode is with Sally Fallon Morrell. She is the founding president of the Weston A. Price Foundation,
Starting point is 00:00:22 and she also wrote a book called Nourishing Traditions. I was really stoked to get to be able to sit down with her. Not only do I love the work that Weston A Price is doing, side note, if you don't follow them on Instagram, I highly recommend doing that. They also have an amazing podcast, which is full of all the information that we go over today and so much more that I didn't even have time to cover. But I was really excited because she is the author of Nourishing Traditions, which was actually a book that was required reading for me during my master's program in one of my nutrition classes. So it was really cool to be able to sit down and talk with her, pick her brain.
Starting point is 00:00:59 We talked about a lot of things that I've talked about in passing on the podcast, but I've never really dove into. Things like raw milk, why we should be eating more butter, what healthy fats she recommends, and just overall, what does a nourishing, real food diet look like that our ancestors ate, and also a diet that promotes fertility, which you all know that I am on my own fertility journey, hoping to get pregnant later this year. And so we talked about what foods I should be eating that will promote fertility and hopefully a healthy pregnancy.
Starting point is 00:01:34 We also talk about baby formula. I do want to say, I said this in the podcast, I want to reiterate this again, I know the topic of baby formula and breastfeeding is a really sensitive topic, and I know it's extra sensitive when it's a woman who doesn't have experience breastfeeding and being pregnant yet. I get a lot of heat about that from women who have gone
Starting point is 00:01:59 through the experience, and I know, and I want to recognize that obviously I have not been through that yet, and I recognize that there are things ahead of me that I will not be able to predict, and I have no idea how I'm going to handle it when I'm in that moment. But I do just want to remind you that try not to take on any guilt or shame with the information that you hear in this podcast. If you are a mom and you're past the breastfeeding formula phase and maybe you did things that you wish that you could change now.
Starting point is 00:02:26 Look, at the end of the day, we're all doing the best that we can with the information that we have at the time. And when we know better, we do better. And I believe that this information can help a lot of women, including myself, who have not been down this road yet, who have not been down this path. And if I can help any moms going down that path
Starting point is 00:02:46 and give them as many resources as possible to have a healthy pregnancy, to have a healthy baby, to navigate if they're unable to breastfeed. And also, to be honest, I want to be a proponent for breastfeeding if you can. Because I think it's the healthiest thing that we can do for our babies, and if we can. It was an incredible episode. I learned things that I had never heard before,
Starting point is 00:03:23 and she's just an amazing woman, and I'm totally in awe of all the work that she's done, and I just think she's incredible. So I hope that you love the episode. If you want to take a moment to rate and review it, it means so much to me. It also really helps the show. And if you're loving this particular episode,
Starting point is 00:03:39 if you want to tag me on Instagram, at realfoodology, I try to get to all of your messages. I see most of them and I just want to say thank you so much for the support. I love you guys and I hope you enjoy the episode. Thank you. I am a huge fan of manuka honey. In fact, I've taken it for years because of its antibacterial
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Starting point is 00:04:12 The bees collect nectar from the Manuka tea tree and the honey they produce contains three times more antioxidants and prebiotics than regular honey. Not only that, but Manukura honey also contains a special antibacterial compound called MgO. Every single harvest is third-party tested for MgO, and you can even scan a QR code to see the results for yourself.
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Starting point is 00:05:09 Artificial additives with refreshing flavors like citrus salt and raspberry salt There's something for everyone and for my sparkling water lovers element has created a sparkling water called element sparkling I'm so excited about this product with the same trusted electrolyte formulation you love now in a refreshing about this product. And if you're an element tea insider, you have first access to element sparkling, a bold 16 ounce can of sparkling electrolyte water. Sally, thank you so much for taking the trip to come up and talk to me today. Oh, you're so welcome. I'm so happy to be here. Oh, good.
Starting point is 00:06:00 I'm so excited. So I was telling you before we started recording that I, I'm so excited. So I was telling you before we started recording that I'm so blown away that I'm sitting here right now talking to you, because I read one of your books as required reading in one of my nutrition classes around, it was seven or eight years ago now. And I'm so grateful for the work that you've done. Thank you. Yeah. So I'm curious, before I start getting into all the questions,
Starting point is 00:06:24 how did you get into all of this, and how did you get to a place where you wrote a book called Nourishing Traditions? How did you come to all that? BD Yeah, I don't know. It just sort of happened. I feel like the universe is kind of tugging on me. You need to go this direction.
Starting point is 00:06:40 So I got this idea to write a cookbook putting Dr. Price's, Weston Price's discoveries So I got this idea to write a cookbook, putting Dr. Price's, Weston Price's discoveries into practical form for the American audience. And I had never written a book. I didn't know what I was doing. My kids, oh yeah, mom's writing a book. But I just persevered and felt that I should continue this. And of course, couldn't find a publisher. I had to self-publish. Wow.
Starting point is 00:07:08 Is that because they didn't like what you were writing? Yes. In fact, my co-author, Mary Enoch, had been told by someone in the publishing world that we won't publish a book that doesn't promote canola oil. That's what she was told. Oh my god. I can't believe that.
Starting point is 00:07:27 And I have a box of rejection slips, but a lot of them were very nice saying, gosh, this sounds so interesting, but we can't publish it. Well, I'm up to 850,000 books now. And even my kids say, you know, mom, you actually did it. So you did it. So it started off very slowly and I didn't know about marketing, I didn't know what I was doing, but it was definitely word of mouth that spread the idea about the book. Yeah, well, and then there's people like me now
Starting point is 00:08:00 that are taking nutrition courses. I got my Master's of Science in Nutrition, and one of my classes, actually, I think, now looking back, I think I had two classes that it was required reading, and they would have us read different chapters. And back then, I was pretty well-versed in real food, so I created my brand called Real Foodology,
Starting point is 00:08:20 because I felt like the basis of all of everything I was talking about was real food. Right. And when I read your book, you put a couple things on the map for me, things like bone broth, I remember. You had a whole chapter about how nourishing it is. And I want to dive into that too, but you were the first person that really put that on the map for me. And the way that you wrote in that book, it really spoke to me
Starting point is 00:08:40 because it goes back to our really primal, innate, what we know to be true about health and what we should be eating. And you just did a wonderful job with writing all that out in her book. Thank you. Well, my mother was from the South and the Southerners were still making chicken broth,
Starting point is 00:08:56 even back then. So she made chicken broth and she talked about how good it was for you and it was good for your skin, and it helped you sleep. So that's where that came from. You know what, you just reminded me, too. So there's a little story that you tell, or I don't even know if it was a story,
Starting point is 00:09:15 but you were explaining why mothers give their children chicken soup when they're sick. And I still tell this to this day to my friends. I think I've maybe even shared it on the podcast before. Will you share that with the audience? Why is that a tradition that when you're sick, they give you chicken noodle soup? Well, I don't know why they had that tradition,
Starting point is 00:09:32 but what I love about these traditions is that they're validated by science. And if a nourishing tradition is validated by science, we can pretty much count on that. So we know there's a lot of glycine in chicken soup, and that's very important for detoxification. It supports the liver and detoxification. And that's what getting sick is.
Starting point is 00:09:56 It's a detoxifying process. It's not something we should fight. We should kind of go through it. But the chicken broth really supports that process that's going on in your body. we should kind of go through it. So all of the amino acids that you need for healthy joints and healthy bones are there in the chicken soup. OK, and yeah, there was another piece of it, too, that I thought I remember reading in your book, that the minerals in the bones go into the broth?
Starting point is 00:10:36 Was that... Yes, they do, although we were disappointed to find out that there was very little calcium in the broth. So what's in the collagen and the connective tissue is not bone, it's connective tissue, and there's not a lot of calcium there. But there were a lot of other minerals, for sure. OK, well, still, I mean, that's amazing to know, and I just thought it was an interesting thing that I read in your book,
Starting point is 00:11:00 and I told a lot of people about it. OK, so I want to talk about baby formula because this is a really hot topic right now. Yes, it is. And there's a lot of people arguing back and forth about this. And there's also, I have a lot of concern because out of all of the conventional formulas on the market on the shelves,
Starting point is 00:11:19 you can't find a single one that doesn't have canola oil, safflower oil, sunflower oil, one of those. What is your biggest issue with the formula that's available right now? Or all of your issues? DL If you go out and buy what they call a milk substitute for animals, for cows or goats or whatever, the third ingredient in that formula is animal fat. It says that right there on the label.
Starting point is 00:11:43 One, two, three is animal fat. And that's because the vets know that these animals will not grow normally if they don't get animal fat. The growth in mammals, and that includes human mammals, requires cholesterol and vitamin A, and you get that from animal fats. Now, there is no cholesterol in human baby formula. There's no animal fat in baby formula.
Starting point is 00:12:08 And this is just the time when babies need that cholesterol. Mother's milk is very rich in cholesterol and contains special enzymes to ensure that 100 percent of that cholesterol will be absorbed. The baby can't make cholesterol, and the baby can't make vitamin A either. And these are the two critical vitamins for lots of things, but mainly for hormone production. Now, we think babies don't produce hormones, but they do. And the testosterone levels in a little boy
Starting point is 00:12:40 are supposed to be, for the first six months of life, as high as those of an adult male. They're just as high as a man, okay? But if the baby can't make that testosterone, he won't make it. And that six months of testosterone primes the baby boy to express male characteristics at puberty. If he's getting formula, this is much less likely to happen. Why doesn't the formula industry put whole milk into the formulas?
Starting point is 00:13:12 They're all made with skim milk and vegetable oils. Why don't they do that? And they vowed they will never do this. Because they don't want to waste the butterfat by giving it to babies, when they can get five times more for that butterfat by putting it into ice cream. So our nutrition decisions are being made by accountants.
Starting point is 00:13:38 They're not being made by people who care for babies. And something about cholesterol, too, because I think this is important to note, because we vilify cholesterol like crazy. We need cholesterol in order to create testosterone and make testosterone, so that's why they need it. And estrogen. Yeah, and it's also really good for the brain.
Starting point is 00:13:55 It's essential for the brain. It's essential for the digestive tract. You need a lot of cholesterol in the cells lining the digestive tract. And babies, you know, they're very, their digestive apparatus is just getting started, and they can't make a lot of these things. That's why they're in the milk, and that's why cholesterol is in the milk. There's a reason for it.
Starting point is 00:14:18 And so when you do skim milk, it's not going to have as much cholesterol in it? It has no cholesterol in it. So we're giving babies skim milk, it's not going to have as much cholesterol in it. BD It has no cholesterol in it. OK. So we're giving babies skim milk, vegetable oils, and the wrong kind of sugar, and a lot of artificial vitamins, and no wonder we're getting stupider, no wonder we have widespread digestive problems in our children.
Starting point is 00:14:40 And we're also dealing with infertility like crazy. Exactly. My generation, it's also something I want to talk about is with my generation, I mean, women are. They're crying to get pregnant. Crying and trying to get pregnant. I mean, I have so many friends that are going through IVF right now and they're early 30s. Yeah, I know it's sad.
Starting point is 00:15:00 We've had many gals now see the female can kind of recoup more than a male can, and we have so many gals who've gotten pregnant by getting on our diet. Raw milk, egg yolks, butter, lots of butter, cod liver oil, they get pregnant. But nobody's telling them this. There's a lot more money in IVF than in healthy women. You could be eating all the right foods for your New Year's resolution, but if your body isn't properly breaking them down, you're literally flushing money down the toilet. That's where Maszymes from Bioptimizers comes in.
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Starting point is 00:17:35 All the foods we need for fertility have been demonized. All the foods that traditional people that Dr. Price studied and lots of seafood as well. There's no money in them, you know? There's a lot of money in processed food, and they don't want to use expensive ingredients in processed food, so they use seed oils, sweeteners. Yeah. They use a lot of things that we're subsidizing with farmers, too.
Starting point is 00:18:00 And so that's why it's cheap, and we have a lot of it, and it's super accessible. And it would be so easy for us to subsidize butter. Do we really want to have a healthy, prosperous, robust nation? We should be subsidizing butter. And we should be warning people, especially moms, against low-fat foods, skim milk, all this kind of skinless chicken breast. That's one of my big peeps.
Starting point is 00:18:30 I have such beef with this because I'm sure you know about this, but there was that study that was done in the 1970s with these Harvard scientists, and they got wind that it was sugar that was actually leading to heart disease and heart attacks. And the sugar industry, this sounds like conspiracy, but it is literally true. NPR wrote a piece about this.
Starting point is 00:18:50 They got, the sugar industry got wind of this study and the results that they were going to publish. So they pay these Harvard scientists off and it wasn't even that much money. It was like the equivalent of like $50,000 this, you know, in 2025 to say that it was fat instead of sugar. Yes. And then this was around the time when I was young,
Starting point is 00:19:11 I was probably maybe, well, the 1970s, I was not born yet. But I remember there was Q, the low-fat diet, when I was young, because all my mom's friends remember were eating those snackwell cookies. Do you remember those, the low-fat? No, no, no. God, and then it's still to this day. People are terrified of fat. my mom's friends remember were eating those snack well cookies. Do you remember those? And then it's still to this day, people are terrified of fat.
Starting point is 00:19:35 Well, there was a study in the early 2000s, the man was named Chavarro, he was at Harvard and he wasfat dairy products, they got pregnant. Wow. Have you heard about this study? No. Has it been published? Has your infertility doctor told you about this study? No.
Starting point is 00:19:54 And then they said, well, if you got pregnant on a full-fat diet, when you get pregnant, you can go back to your low-fat diet. Why would we do that? Don't you think that the same diet that helps you get pregnant would be the diet that helps you stay pregnant and develops a healthy child? Not only that, but anything that promotes fertility, in my mind,
Starting point is 00:20:13 means overall well-being and vitality in your body, because your fertility is a marker of where your overall health is. Absolutely, and that's what the study showed, but who knows about this study? Except us. I know, and it's so maddening. So let's clear this up for the audience. Eating fat is healthy for you, and does it make you fat? Animal fat actually helps you keep the weight off.
Starting point is 00:20:38 It normalizes your fat. If you're too thin, it'll make you a little heavier. But animal fat supports thyroid function. That's really important to know. Butter is the most healthy food that you can eat for your thyroid gland because it contains vitamin A, which you can't make thyroid hormones without vitamin A, and it contains iodine and it contains butyric acid, which is something else important for thyroid function. And butter will help you keep the weight off.
Starting point is 00:21:08 S1 That's really interesting. There was a, I don't think it was an actual study, but there was something that was reported that has been recirculating recently, and we actually read this in one of my nutrition classes when I was in school. There was a farmer that tried to fatten up his pigs with coconut oil. Do you know about this? DL. Well, it was actually a USDA study. S. It was.
Starting point is 00:21:32 DL. Yes, and they didn't publish it, but my colleague, Mary Annick, knew about this. They were looking at how to fatten pigs. If you gave them whole milk, they wouldn't get fat. If you gave them coconut oil, they wouldn't get fat. If you gave them butter, they wouldn't get fat. But if you gave them skim, they wouldn't get fat. If you gave them coconut oil, they wouldn't get fat. If you gave them butter, they wouldn't get fat. But if you gave them skim milk, they would get fat.
Starting point is 00:21:50 And canola oil. Oh, is that right? Well, there you go. And the pig is very much like the human being. It's an omnivore. We have very similar digestive tracts. Isn't that so fascinating? So in the old days, what they did with milk
Starting point is 00:22:03 is they made cream, butter, and cheese. They didn't want the skim milk. They knew it was garbage. And that was given to the pigs. The way from making cheese and the skim milk was given to the pigs, and that fattened the pigs. So it was a nice synergy all on the same farm. Now we've got the pigs in South Carolina and the dairy cows in Wisconsin, and you can't do that.
Starting point is 00:22:27 Oh, that's so sad. I hope that, I hope there's a world in which we can get back to. To real farming and support of real farming. The problem is that they would deny this, but the Department of Agriculture actually follows a Marxist agenda of industrial farms. And they would say, oh no, it's just efficiency.
Starting point is 00:22:50 But it's not more efficient, it's just what Karl Marx wanted, the big industrial farms. Animals as units of production. And they sneer at small farms. Oh, these are just like museums. Okay, we can have a few of them so you can see what it's like, but we can't feed the world at small farms. Oh, these are just like museums. Okay, we can have a few of them so you can see what it's like, but we can't feed the world with small farms. We can feed the world with small farms.
Starting point is 00:23:11 And that's where we need to put our support. But I don't think that's gonna happen with the mindset of the Department of Agriculture. Their mindset is sell grain. That's what we're here to do, sell grain, sell grain. So they want you to grain feed your animals. They don't want you to pasture feed your animals. And they don't want you to give skim milk to your pigs.
Starting point is 00:23:29 They want you to give grain to your pigs. And they want to give you all of the leftover remnants of whatever is coming out of the industrial food out of all the factories. They want to give all the remnants of that to the livestock animals. Yeah, they give it to the cows. So the cows get potato chips.
Starting point is 00:23:46 I saw they also get candy bars and expired bread that they pull off the shelf. I mean, it's really sickening what's happening right now. I'm really tired of this narrative that we have to feed the world. Well, there's a surplus of food here. What we need to do is even out the food production, keep it local so you aren't dependent on the big transportation train. But that's everywhere they go, they push industrial agriculture
Starting point is 00:24:18 at the expense of local farms. Would it be possible if we were to go back to smaller, more local farms. Would it be possible, if we were to go back to smaller, more local farms, to not only make sure that we fed our local communities, but is there a world in which we could appease the government and feed the world in that system while also doing the smaller local farms, or is that just not possible? Well, we can feed the world with small farms. We're not feeding people now, they're starving.
Starting point is 00:24:44 That's why they eat so much. You know? Exactly, they're nutritionally deprived. Yes, so, but in quantity as well as quality, we can feed the world with small farms. I want to go back to baby formula for a second, because I don't want to leave the mothers listening hanging. Because I'm sure they're listening to this. And my audience is very smart and they keep up with all this.
Starting point is 00:25:02 So a lot of them, this is not new information, but I think the cholesterol thing might be new to them., so a lot of them, this is not new information, but I think the cholesterol thing might be new to them. Because not a lot of people are talking about that. DL And the fact that these little boys have such high levels of testosterone, they're supposed to. I said that the other day at one of these discussion luncheons, and people were shocked, they didn't know it.
Starting point is 00:25:23 CA It explains somewhat of what's going on right now. I think there's a lot of different things going on. There's also astrazine. Yeah, all of the pesticides and plastics and things, of course they are a factor. But the biggest factor is that we're not feeding these babies right, starting from the womb to, well, all through their growth period. And does breast milk contain, it contains cholesterol, right? It's very high in cholesterol, to all through their growth period.
Starting point is 00:25:45 And does breast milk contain, it contains cholesterol, right? It's very high in cholesterol and it contains enzymes that ensure that the baby absorbs all the cholesterol. So I would argue that, well, this just doesn't even need to be said. When I hopefully become a mom, I am going to fight tooth and nail to breastfeed and I really pray and hope that I don't have a problem with it. I also want to be sensitive and acknowledge that some women really struggle with it. I think it's a lower percentage than we've been told. I think a lot of women want to go back to work sooner or it's a really hard job and they don't want to do it anymore.
Starting point is 00:26:20 And I say this just point blank fact, I'm not placing judgment. I am totally a firm believer and you do whatever is best for you. and I say this just point blank fact, I'm not placing judgment. I just want women to have full informed consent because I think women are being told that formula is exactly the same as breast milk, we're also hearing, fed is best, which really bothers me. Because there's this narrative they say now, anytime you try to talk about formula and say that breast milk is better for you, they say, well, fed, a fed baby is best.
Starting point is 00:26:54 And I always say, fed is the bare minimum. Yeah, just keeps them from crying. Bare minimum here. And do we want the bare minimum for our children? Because I want my child to be thriving. from crying. and my daughter-in-law, she's just a wonderful girl and big breastfeeding advocate, and she's struggling. She had to supplement, and she's supplementing with our baby formula, which the recipes in Nourishing Traditions and on our website, and I would say that at least, that thousands of babies have had this formula.
Starting point is 00:27:42 And it's based on the next best thing to mother's milk, which is raw milk from another species. And that's what people did all over the world for thousands and thousands of years. So it's based on raw milk and we add things to it that bring it more in line with what's in human milk. We add extra whey, human milk is very high in whey. We add cod liver oil.
Starting point is 00:28:06 We add some cream because mother's milk tends to be higher in fat than cow's milk. And the babies just thrive on it. And this formula has been a lifesaver. And it's also been a lightning rod because we've been heavily criticized for promoting raw milk for babies. Well, breast milk is raw milk.
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Starting point is 00:29:54 off your first order and experience a coffee that nourishes your body and mind every single day. The criticism for raw milk is really interesting to me because all of our ancestors drank raw milk. They did, yes. We've been drinking raw milk as a species since the dawn of time. They weren't drinking raw milk from confinement dairy, so they always picked the best cow and put her on grass, and that's the milk they used for their babies.
Starting point is 00:30:19 Yeah. And that's the thing, with a lot of this stuff in nutrition, there's always going to be caveats, right? I mean, would I advocate for somebody to get raw milk from a factory farm? No. In fact, I would argue that's incredibly dangerous. And I would be with the anti-raw milk people on that team, on that part of it. However... But I will say, I will say, one of my boys, I couldn't get... Well, this is California, you could get raw milk, However.
Starting point is 00:31:04 But what people don't realize is that there are so many components in raw milk that they're anti-pathogenic. In other words, they kill pathogens. They keep you from absorbing these pathogens. And because, you know, cows and goats are dirty and so are humans. They once tested raw milk in a milk bank in China and the milk was loaded with pathogens. are dirty and so are humans. vilifying pathogens. And I know you talk about fermented foods in your book. Not all pathogens are bad,
Starting point is 00:31:49 and I'm probably going to get heat for saying that. BFL-Vilifying bacteria, yeah. Not all bacteria are pathogens. Well, yes, sorry. I meant to say bacteria. But what I'm saying, yeah, not all bacteria is bad for you, in fact, we know that our gut is full of good and bad bacteria, and we need both of those to live in symbiosis.
Starting point is 00:32:05 Well, the paradigm about bacteria has completely changed in the last 30 years. of good and bad bacteria, and we need both of those to live in symbiosis. And have a functioning system. DL Well, the paradigm about bacteria has completely changed in the last 30 years. Thirty years ago, all bacteria were bad, the human body is sterile, and bacteria attack us and make us sick. And now we know that a healthy person has up to six pounds of bacteria in their guts,
Starting point is 00:32:27 and these are, as you say, a symbiosis of good bacteria and some that are considered not so good. But we need these in our digestive tract or we won't be healthy. And all, literally all traditional cultures had fermented foods, some really high fermented foods sometimes, really stinky fermented foods. And they ate them every day, really high fermented foods sometimes, really stinky fermented foods. And they ate them every day, and this replenished the bacteria in the gut.
Starting point is 00:32:50 Yeah, and so not all bacteria is bad. And I get it, I actually just finished watching this show. Have you ever watched Yellowstone or any other shows, like 1883? No, no. It was interesting because it really reminded me of what humans have been through to get, like our ancestors and what they went through to get to where we are today. And it really did give me this perspective of, I felt a little bit more empathetic to
Starting point is 00:33:17 that narrative that we have now in 2025 because I get so frustrated when we're talking about stuff like this because I feel like the conversation and the narrative hasn't been updated to where we are, what we know now. But I get it, because back then, when they were, so the show 1883 is about them taking the Oregon Trail, essentially, and traveling up through America. And they were in covered wagons, and the smallest cut could kill you. Yes, right, right.
Starting point is 00:33:46 And so it just gave me such a different perspective of, okay, I understand why there's so much fear, because not even that long ago, something as simple as a cut could just completely take you out. Well, and also, our cities were absolutely filthy. Yes. They were up to your eyeballs in horse manure.
Starting point is 00:34:04 Yes. There were no sewers. There's no good water. And even the lakes or, you know, rivers they came across had pathogens in them and they're trying to bathe in that and then they could get an infection from that. And we were dumping sewage in Lake Michigan, for example. The water for Chicago came out of the same place they were dumping the sewage.
Starting point is 00:34:23 So it took us a while to learn about sanitation. And once you get a lot of people living together who are not moving across the landscape, then you really have to understand about sanitation and take steps to protect yourselves. Yes, so I, like you, I understand why people were afraid of germs. Yeah. Because they had too many germs, I guess.
Starting point is 00:34:45 But now we went too far in that direction, and now we realize we let our kids play in the dirt and we don't want to be too clean. And why is this important? Because I do think we kind of, we had amnesia about this during COVID because everybody was sanitizing everything to high hell. Why is that important for our immune systems?
Starting point is 00:35:06 Because I guess there's a lot of discussion about this, but it kind of primes you, gets your body used to dealing with all of these things. And also, many of them, most of them were good for us. I think it also doesn't it just make your immune system, it's like a workout for your immune system. Oh, I wanted to ask you about this, about baby formula. I read recently that lobbyists for big formula are lobbying against paid maternity leave so that women are forced into the workforce sooner
Starting point is 00:35:45 and made to rely on formula. Why am I not surprised? I'm not surprised by this either. Yeah, I mean, this industry is so evil. And all the push for breastfeeding has died back. When my daughter-in-law was in the hospital with the baby, they said, well, now we can give them some sugar water or formula at night so you can sleep.
Starting point is 00:36:12 And my son, one of the things I said to him, when you go to that hospital, you do not take that baby out of your sight. You have him in your eyes all the time. So they take the baby to the nursery and he said, you know, she had pumped milk for the baby, but everybody, all the other babies in the nursery were getting formula. And this is so you can, we're helping you so you can sleep at night. But I tell you, the hospitals are pushing formula.
Starting point is 00:36:42 They are. Yeah. They tried to stop that, you know, to make it illegal, but they're pushing it. I believe some of the hospitals have contracts with those companies, right? Yeah. Because I've also heard, I've had a lot of people write me on Instagram saying that not only were they pushed formula on,
Starting point is 00:36:58 the formula was pushed on them in the hospital, but many of them started getting samples in the mail. That's HIPAA. That's your privacy, right? Yes. They can't share with your next-door neighbor, but they share with all the companies. And how are they getting these addresses?
Starting point is 00:37:15 Is it through their doctor? Yeah, it all goes into Big Data System, and if you're selling formula or adult diapers or whatever, they know which ones to send these to. I mean, it's insane. or adult diapers or whatever, they know which ones to send these to. I mean, it's insane. Because I had some women write me saying, they had just found out they were pregnant, This is all shared. Wow, that really should be illegal. If a woman is struggling to breastfeed,
Starting point is 00:37:47 your first thing would say, or you would tell them to make the formula, correct? Well, first I would say, you know, keep trying. Yeah. But the baby has to be fed, of course. You don't have much time. So I would make the formula and give it with something called the lactate, which is you put the formula in this little bag and the baby takes the formula through a tube while he's breastfeeding.
Starting point is 00:38:12 So you're still getting the stimulation of the breast. And a lot of times you only need to do that for a few weeks and then you don't need that anymore. Okay, interesting. And I want to ask you too, because— Are women told this? No. Even if you're giving formula, you should be giving it in this way so that you're still
Starting point is 00:38:32 breastfeeding. I've heard this, because I've had women tell me before that they, for whatever reason, they thought that they could just give them formula for a day or two, because something happened or whatever. And then they stopped lactating. And then they stopped making the milk. You have to have that constant stimulation. And this is a wonderful little gadget.
Starting point is 00:38:50 Again, nobody tells you about it. I was very fortunate to have a pediatrician who did tell me about it, so I could keep nursing while I was giving the formula. That's amazing. I think a lot of women don't know that. There's a lot that women are not told. Yes, exactly. And it's really frustrating.
Starting point is 00:39:07 Well, I do have a book called The Nourishing Traditions of Baby and Child Care. And so it's all in there. Yes, highly recommend anyone listening, if you're a mom, if you plan to be a mom, or if you're a dad too, buy it and read it and check out, because there's a lot of amazing information in there. So I mentioned this earlier, but I want to dive a little bit further into it
Starting point is 00:39:28 because this is also not told, I think, to a lot of women. I think there's a couple different reasons why. What are the main reasons that women do you think are struggling more with breastfeeding now? Well, one could be thyroid problems. The thyroid is very much involved in milk production. It could be other hormonal problems. It could be their basic nutrition. But a woman who's struggling, she might want to take some
Starting point is 00:39:53 desticated thyroid, that might help. You know, up the fat-soluble vitamins, up the butter, get all these good fats to help you produce milk. OK. Do you think the lactation cookies and recipes that people make, does that help with milk supply? I don't know what they are, but there's also galactagogues. I love that word.
Starting point is 00:40:16 Galactagogues are herbs that help you produce more milk. OK, amazing. Quite a few of them. I've also been heard, too, that sometimes people will not be aware that their kid has a tongue tie and that can affect. You know, I never heard about tongue tie when I was having my babies. Nobody had tongue tie. I don't know what's going on here.
Starting point is 00:40:37 It's like the tongue is not fully developed or fully separated from the floor of the mouth. We did do an article about tongue tie in the Weston Price Foundation Journal. There's a big question of whether to cut or not to cut. Yeah. Don't have easy answers on this. Yeah. I wonder, and this is just theoretical and just where my brain went,
Starting point is 00:41:09 I'm wondering if that's happening because we're not as nourished as we once were. It could be, yes. It could be. And we're not giving the babies the building blocks to do everything it needs to do. You know, it's interesting. The baby's hand starts out as a paddle, and then the fingers separate. And what causes the fingers to separate is testosterone. So possibly if a mother is in a too estrogenated environment, the tongue is just not going to separate. That's really interesting.
Starting point is 00:41:35 That's just a theory. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting to explore all of this, right? I mean, we have to ask questions, right? And go down every avenue. But I think the diagnosis of tongue tie is given kind of glibly, you know, it must be tongue tie, and go down every avenue. But I think the diagnosis of tongue tie is given kind of glibly, or it must be tongue tie, and not necessarily so. There was also another thing that I heard that I like to share this every opportunity that I can,
Starting point is 00:42:00 because I heard this from a guest of mine a couple years ago, and I was horrified because I'd never heard this. If you do not explicitly say, if you decide to get an epidural and if you don't say that you don't want the fentanyl in it, they give you fentanyl in there and they don't tell you. Did you know this? I did not know this. Isn't that crazy? Yeah. I was horrified.
Starting point is 00:42:15 I had a guest on my podcast that told me, and I've since confirmed it with several people. She was. So if you, and you can request to not get it. And I don't understand why they're doing this. I know, I don't understand either. to not get it. I know, I don't understand either. And then get this, so then the babies are coming out
Starting point is 00:42:35 and they're a little messed up on the fentanyl and they're not latching right away. or, oh my gosh, there's something wrong with my kid They didn't tell her that it was from the fentanyl. because nobody told her to also, what do you call that, pump? By the way, the breast pumps today are great. They've been much improved and you can pump and give your milk to a premature baby. There's no reason why you can't give them formula. I have a friend that had a really cool mobile one that she would just put in her bra. And then it would sit in her bra, which was really cool. Yeah, they've done a lot of amazing things with all of that,
Starting point is 00:43:28 which is cool. And I really have to take my hat off to moms who do this, who understand how important it is. You know, there's this saying, food before one is just for fun. It's just that it's just so wrong. Food before one, everything about their future life depends on it. Say that again, because I've never heard that. Well, that comes from the baby-led weaning folks, which I'm extremely opposed to.
Starting point is 00:43:58 Food before one is just for fun. And, you know, baby's weaning foods, that's a very important choice you're going to make. These need to be very nutrient-dense, high-cholesterol foods. We recommend egg yolks and pureed liver as the first weaning foods for baby, because baby will get everything she needs from those two foods. And you put salt in these foods. Another big problem we're having is the pregnant moms are not getting enough salt, the nursing moms are not getting enough salt.
Starting point is 00:44:32 Salt is essential. It's essential for just everything, digestion, the brain. For the electrolyte balance, sodium, potassium. So I have to tell you a funny story. My husband, this is a while back, was in the hospital and in the hospital they give you saline. That's the best thing about a hospital, is you get the saline drip and you might get as much as 10 teaspoons of salt per day in that drip
Starting point is 00:45:00 and it helps you. The recovering body needs salt. And then when you leave the hospital, they tell you to go on a low-salt diet. Like, we want to see you back real soon, OK? Yeah, exactly. See, one of the very good things about living in the modern world is that everybody has access to salt, and it's cheap.
Starting point is 00:45:20 Now, it might not be exactly the right kind of salt, we recommend unrefined salt. But everybody has salt today. Of course, they're trying to get people not to eat salt. But you absolutely need a teaspoon and a half of salt per day. And in 1900, people ate three teaspoons of salt per day. And they didn't have heart attacks and stuff like that. So we need salt.
Starting point is 00:45:45 We shouldn't cut back on salt. I actually have salt in my water here right now. Yeah, I do too. I love that. Yeah, it's interesting. Fun fact, if you're not eating a ton of fast food or eating out a bunch or eating a bunch of processed packaged foods, you're actually probably not getting enough salt.
Starting point is 00:46:03 And this is why people crave, we call them the pornographic foods, you're actually probably not getting enough salt. That's true. And this is why people crave, we call them the pornographic foods, because they're on the puritanical diet and not eating enough salt. And then they go right into the arms of the pornographic foods. Oh, God. So why not just this pure wholesome diet that contains salt and fats and all the things that satisfy us, and then we wouldn't then you just don't want that junk food. Yep. So we talked a little bit about introducing foods to babies.
Starting point is 00:46:32 When and what age? I actually just had somebody DM me about this. OK, it's a big debate about this, and I've written about it. So people have studied when weaning foods come in, and it's anywhere from one to six months. Even at one month, some cultures do this. No culture does exclusive breastfeeding after six months. And there is a reason for this.
Starting point is 00:46:55 Breast milk is not very high in iron and cannot satisfy the baby's requirements for iron after six months, and the baby will become anemic. And you don't want your child to be anemic. That's not a good thing. And babies who are an who want to be heroes and exclusive breastfeeding, but it's not a good idea. So you start anywhere from four to six months.
Starting point is 00:47:32 If it's a very robust, hungry baby, you can start at four months. But by six months, they need that egg yolk. S.E.R.S. So, OK, by six months, give them the egg yolk and the liver. Yes. So, OK, by six months, give them the egg yolk and the liver. Yes. And I would assume you just want to chop it up really well and make it almost into like a... You puree. OK, yeah.
Starting point is 00:47:51 Now, the baby-led weaning, and I have to say, moms, please do not use that book. It is a horrible book. And they say, well, you don't have to make purees. You do have to make purees. You either make purees or you chew the food, which is what traditional moms did. book and they say, Or I'm assuming if people are not making their own purees, they're buying the Gerbers or the, I know. Tell us why not do that. The baby food today, I mean in the old days you could buy egg yolks and liver and meat and things like gizzards pureed in jars. And that's what we need to go back to. the baby food companies to do this. Because let's face it, not all moms have the resources to puree or the time.
Starting point is 00:48:48 But what are our babies getting? They're getting basically fruit either cooked in plastic or aluminum. And this is high sugar. It's just like giving them sugar cubes, but with the additional aluminum and plastic. And glyphosate. And a lot of those baby foods are coming back really high in microplastics, sugar cubes, but with the additional aluminum and plastic. And glyphosate, and a lot of those baby foods are coming back really high in microplastics,
Starting point is 00:49:10 which I think you might have just said the plastics, and also heavy metals, which is really concerning. It's horrible the way we think we should be feeding our children. And we're reaping the whirlwind. These children are so unhealthy. You know what my mom used to do with my little brother? We were 10 years apart, so I actually remember this. When I was little, she would puree his food and then she would make a huge batch of different flavors and she would put them in ice cubes and freeze them. I did that. Yeah. My mom was amazing. She made everything from scratch for us. Yeah. It was pretty cool. You're very lucky to have a mom like that.
Starting point is 00:49:47 I'm very grateful. So what would be the first, so the first food would be to introduce them, egg yolks and liver. Yes. And what would be some other foods that would be really good, maybe like avocado? I'm not actually a particularly big fan of avocados for babies. There's, they're pretty high in, what's that? I'm not actually a particularly big fan of avocados for babies.
Starting point is 00:50:07 What's that? What's the thing in spinach? You can do mashed banana, add some cream to the mashed banana, a little salt. Oh, your baby will just love that. to the mash, put down a little salt. breastfeeding, you give them raw milk. Good for you. But the proteins in milk are very fragile. They kind of get untwisted and warped. And the body says, oh, this is a foreign protein.
Starting point is 00:51:31 It has to mount an immune response. And they basically have reactions to these proteins. And sometimes anaphylactic shock. One of the things they don't tell you is there's between 20 and 30 deaths. This is not illnesses. Deaths from anaphylactic shock to pasteurized milk per year. I never knew that. Yes. And there's no deaths from raw milk.
Starting point is 00:51:56 They say there's been three deaths in the last 30 years, but they're making these up. We know that there weren't any deaths. But also, I would argue three deaths in the last 30 years is a pretty decent track record. Every human life matters. Compared to 20 to 30 deaths per year from anaphylactic shock. Exactly. And so what's happening is the consumption of pasteurized milk
Starting point is 00:52:18 is relentlessly declining. It gives the kids a stomach ache, so the parents don't give it to them. And you wouldn't either, of course. And then they find out that the babies can tolerate raw milk. The children love it. They digest it. They calm down. They're fun to be with.
Starting point is 00:52:36 They're not having temper tantrums all the time. And once a parent learns this, no government official is going to dissuade him. Yeah. Is it true that most of us are not actually lactose intolerant? And once a parent learns this, no government official is going to dissuade him. Yeah. Is it true that most of us are not actually lactose intolerant? We're just not consuming the right type of milk? Yeah, I would say we're pasteurization intolerant because we can't tolerate these warped proteins.
Starting point is 00:52:57 It's really interesting. And you know, pasteurized milk today, in the old days it was 160 degrees. Today it's 284 degrees. That's above the boiling point. You can't do that in your own kitchen, on your stove. You can't get the milk that hot. But they rush it past superheated stainless steel plates. So it's an extremely violent process
Starting point is 00:53:18 and very high temperatures. One of the things they don't tell you is that the largest outbreak of foodborne illness in human history was from pasteurized milk. Really? When was that? In the 1980s, mid-1980s, about 200,000 people became sick and there were some deaths. And that was when they were consolidating the dairies
Starting point is 00:53:46 and confinement dairying. And so what did they do? They didn't go cleaner, they went hotter. They thought, well, we'll solve this by going hotter because pasteurization is not enough. and I want to talk about fat. along with all the sugar and the antifreeze and all the stuff that's in ice cream. Or they're getting margarine and they're not even getting real butter. Yeah, or spreads.
Starting point is 00:54:31 People don't eat margarine anymore, they don't admit to it, but they eat the spreads, the healthy spreads. Which, in my opinion, is basically margarine. It is margarine, yeah. But it's just a new branding of margarine. So what are some common myths about fats? Well, fats make you fat. And when you look at these traditional cultures, let's look at the Eskimo, that's always what comes to mind.
Starting point is 00:54:50 Their diet is 80 percent of calories are fat. They couldn't survive without that fat. They're very slender people. They look chunky because they're wearing a lot of clothes. But they're slender people. And even if you go down to something like the tropics, one of the most prized foods was the pig fat. And they saved all the pig fat and cooked it with the meat. And they put the fat in these kind of tubs made of banana leaves,
Starting point is 00:55:18 but they saved all the fat. Australian Aborigines, they hunted animals at the time of the year when they'd be fattest. And if an animal wasn't fat, it was rubbish, and they threw it away. They wouldn't even eat the protein? No, they would just throw it away. It's no good. Because they understood that if you ate protein without fat,
Starting point is 00:55:35 it would be bad for you. And there is a real scientific explanation for this. When we eat fat, the liver releases vitamin A, because we releases vitamin A because we need vitamin A to use the fat. And so, if you're just eating lean meat, you rapidly deplete your body of vitamin A, and then you really get sick.
Starting point is 00:55:59 They call that rabbit starvation or rabbit hunger. So they always ate the meat with the fat. And that's what we don't do. So we throw the skin away from the chicken or cut all the fat off the meat. You can't even get a good steak anymore because they cut the fat off. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:56:16 Or if you get the fat, it's usually grain fed and it's not. Well, that's better than no fat. Definitely better than no fat. But yeah, we want grass fed animals. and it's not? Goose fat is our best source of vitamin K, which we now know was Dr. Price's X factor. It's a very important vitamin for putting calcium and phosphorus in your bones and teeth and keeping it out of your soft tissue, like your arteries.
Starting point is 00:57:00 And the best source of that is goose fat. And I have a dear friend, very beautiful friend who grew up in Denmark, and she said, oh yeah, we ate goose fat on our toast. We spread our toast with goose fat. Or could be duck fat. I've never tried it. Oh, OK, you haven't tried it. Or it could be duck fat.
Starting point is 00:57:16 Or chicken fat. And we should not be taking the skin off the chicken. We should be eating the skin. And then you take the fat that goes into the pan and make gravy out of it with your broth. And that's a delicious, healthy meal. Yeah. Oh, this is making me hungry.
Starting point is 00:57:35 Do you like beef tallow? We're just talking about beef tallow. There's a chain, I think it's called steak and shake. I actually just posted about this today. Yeah, and they've switched back to tallow. I think it's called steak and shake. And they've switched back to tallow. But we're, insider scoop is that they are not using 100% beef tallow. I'll show you the photo afterwards. I posted it on my Instagram and apparently it has BHT and TBHQ in it.
Starting point is 00:58:25 This is fine oil. And that's because the soybean industry has created this whole thing about monkeys and jungles and stuff. OK, so is that not true? Because I was just about to say... I don't know if it's true, but any agriculture is going to displace animals. Mm-hmm. That is true. Well, because any time I've posted about palm oil,
Starting point is 00:59:01 I get an uproar back, the jungles were concerned about the rainforest and I'm not throwing shade, I just, a lot of people talk about it. Well, do you want people in Africa to farm or do they want them to import soybeans from the US? Because if they're farming in Africa, they're getting rid of the elephants, but they get rid of some of them. Yeah. I mean, there's always going to be death, and no matter what farming situation you're in, it's just a civil life.
Starting point is 00:59:30 They reckon that for every acre of grain that's cultivated in the United States, 300 animals are killed. Oh, it's so heartbreaking. It makes me sad. So you can't farm without creating death. But that's exactly, that's it. That's why, in my opinion, the vegan diet is a fallacy, because there's death no matter what. Exactly. without creating death.
Starting point is 01:00:02 horrible ways to, yeah. What are your thoughts on the various dietary trends in this healthy world? So there's keto, paleo, where does this traditional foods approach fit into this modern dietary? My big concern about these high meat diets and even the Atkins diet is that they don't have enough fat. Yeah. And they're eating 30 to 40 percent of calories as protein,
Starting point is 01:00:27 and no human diet was like that. They were no more than 20 percent of calories as protein. So these diets really need more fat. They need some carbs. You do need carbs. You need at least 50 grams of carbs per day for your thyroid gland to work. So these are kind of artificial diets. And I challenge you to raise a child on one of these diets
Starting point is 01:00:53 because they will rebel. If you raise a child on really delicious food and give them mashed potatoes and put butter on their carrots and make gravy, they'll eat that food. So I always say that the test of whether a diet is healthy is, will your children eat it? And eat it in the face and the teeth of all this processed food out there. Another thing that very much concerns me is the use of protein powders, protein shakes
Starting point is 01:01:22 and oh, we need more protein. No, we don we need more protein. No, we don't need more protein. These diets are very hard on the kidneys and very depleting of vitamin A. I think we're getting too much protein, actually. Such an emphasis on it. most Americans was scared of fat when I was younger because I thought it was going to make me fat. And then when I realized that it was actually really good for me
Starting point is 01:01:55 and healthy for me, there was kind of this journey of me learning, oh, I should actually be eating way more of it, like butter and tallow and olive oil and avocados. Although the avocados. It's not that I don't eat avocados. I'm not sure it's the best food for babies. Yeah, OK, that makes sense. And that really changed everything for me, because I started focusing, I started building my meals specifically around meat and good, healthy fats first, and then I would build in the vegetables and whatever else. And carbs, it's OK.
Starting point is 01:02:22 And I think that's good news for most people. You don't have to have a weird diet, kind of a manufactured diet. In my case, my problem was hypoglycemia. I'd get these blood sugar crashes, and of course I ate a lot of sugar when I was a kid, and I'd get these blood sugar crashes where you're ravenously hungry and you have allergies. I was a kid. Every meal, I wouldn't get low blood sugar. So to me, it was just survival that I had to eat these fats. And they taste so good.
Starting point is 01:03:10 They do, yeah. And they keep you full for a long time. I don't really snack anymore. And in spite of a lot of mistakes I made in my diet, I never had a problem getting pregnant. Mmm. This is amazing. I'm getting married in June,
Starting point is 01:03:25 and I'm hoping to get pregnant very soon afterwards. So this is, this episode is very timely. You're, you both need to eat these good fats. Yes. Oh yeah. He's on, I've completely uphauled his, his whole diet and he's eating very healthy now. Oh, good. And feeling good.
Starting point is 01:03:39 Yeah. Yeah, it's exciting. Lots of oysters. Yes. So, okay. I thought this was kind of oysters. Yes. So, okay, I thought this was kind of interesting. I've actually never done this before, but when I was preparing for this podcast, I put in something in Grok, and Grok gave me back some questions that I think are really funny.
Starting point is 01:04:01 I don't want you to answer all these questions, but it was just, I talk a lot about the current I think you're really funny. I don't want you to answer all these questions, but I talk a lot about the current landscape that we're in right now and how we're getting so much pushback. There's this battle between the traditional allopathic conventionally trained doctors and RDS and scientists, and then there's the people in our world that come from the more, you know, we're looking to the past, we're looking to the traditions, we're looking to go back to the way that our ancestors ate. And it was really interesting.
Starting point is 01:04:33 I wanted to just name some of these, and I'm curious what you think about this and what you would say. So one said, isn't advocating for raw milk consumption irresponsible, considering the health risks and legal bans in many places. Well, let me say, there is no law against purchase, possession or consumption of raw milk anywhere. So you as a consumer are not breaking any laws.
Starting point is 01:04:55 Really? What about all the Amish that are getting their raw milk taken and confiscated? Well, it's not the drinkers that are getting it confiscated, it's the people selling it. So in some states there's laws against selling it to the public, and that's what we're fighting against. But there's no law against purchase, consumption, or possession of raw milk. What does that tell you?
Starting point is 01:05:18 That tells you it's all about the economics, it's not about the health. So what was the other part of it? It's not about the health. So what was the other part? The other thing is you have to realize the governments, the local governments, the departments of agriculture, they are lying. They exaggerate. an example. A few years ago we had a cow share program in Wisconsin, it was the first one, and the Department of Agriculture hated it. And there was an outbreak of foodborne illness, and some of the people who got the foodborne illness had drunk this raw milk, so they immediately
Starting point is 01:05:54 shut him down. But there were people who got sick who hadn't drunk his milk, and the people who were customers did a little survey and they found out that 100% of the people who were customers did a little survey and they found out that 100% of the people who got sick had eaten at a local restaurant. Wow. Okay. So it was obviously the local restaurant, but this is still in the books as something caused by raw milk.
Starting point is 01:06:19 And there's lots of cases out there. I mean, the first thing you need to do when you have an outbreak of foodborne illness is to test the water. But they never do that. If some of the people were drinking raw milk, that's what they blame it on. So you have to be very careful of the statistics they're using.
Starting point is 01:06:37 If they were... I mean, we looked into all these reports, and we found that 100% of them didn't show that pasteurization would have solved the problem. So, you have to be very careful. They say there's been three deaths in the last, I think it's 20 years. But we know that, well, two of them,
Starting point is 01:06:54 we know there wasn't a death. One of them was just made up. Well, they're both made up, and I don't know about this third one, but these people are lying. Yeah, and they're creating a lot of fear. And that's, of course, that's how they do it. That's how they control people, about this third one, but these people are lying. And they're creating a lot of fear. And that's of course how they do it.
Starting point is 01:07:15 That's how they control people, is they make them afraid. Why do you think they're going so hard after raw milk? One is the dairy industry that has very narrow profit margins. And they pay the farmers practically nothing for their milk. The dairy farmer today gets the same price he got in World War II. And they don't want to have to pay that farmer more, because that farmer can get $5 to $25 a gallon for his milk if he sells to the public. And the dairy industry does not want to compete with that. So that's one reason. But I think the other is the grain industry because the raw milk is they're not using
Starting point is 01:07:54 a lot of grain. They're pasture feeding and because it's less expensive for the farmer to do it that way. So I also think it's the grain interests. I wonder, too, if there's also some sort of pushback there with the local farms, because in my opinion and in my experience, one, you can only really get raw milk from local farms. And I also think, my opinion is that it's much safer
Starting point is 01:08:20 to get raw milk from somewhere that was close to you versus having it shipped across the country. Right, right. And it kind of necessarily needs to be a local thing. versus having it shipped across the country. Right, right. And it kind of necessarily needs to be a local thing. I'm glad this is regulated on the state level and it is. It's basically local farms. farmer. Yeah, we're not going to change this system through the government. I'm all for Bobby trying and we might make some changes, but this is going to change on the grassroots level. Yeah, literally the grassroots level. Yeah, I love that. I mean, we're trying.
Starting point is 01:08:55 We're, I feel like a lot of people are waking up and we're all trying to demand better for our food. Yes, and for our children. So what's another one of these? I mean, I just want to preface this by saying that I was horrified by all of these, and I don't agree with any of them. Another one said, in an era of climate change, how can you justify promoting diets heavy in animal products which have a significant environmental footprint?
Starting point is 01:09:18 I cannot, with that narrative, that regenerative farming, we already know, you need animals and regenerative farming, and regenerative farming reduced the carbon footprint because it pulls the carbon out of the atmosphere back into the soil. Well, first question is, is there any climate, is there global warming? There's climate change, yes, because the climate's always changing, it goes in cycles. I mean, we had a warm spell in the medieval warm period, I think it was from 1100 to 1400,
Starting point is 01:09:42 where they had grapes in Denmark and cows in Greenland. I think it'd be nice to go back to a warmer climate, frankly. By the way, we do have more carbon dioxide in the air today, a little more, and the plants are growing more. We have more growth of plants today than we did 30 years ago. Interesting, I haven't heard that. Yeah. It's fascinating.
Starting point is 01:10:07 So, a little push for membership in the Weston A. Price Foundation. If you had been getting our journal, you would have read a series of wonderful articles challenging the climate change narrative. Okay, I need to read that. I'm a huge fan of Weston A. Price and his work. We studied some of it in school, too, for people listening who are not aware of him and his work,
Starting point is 01:10:26 can you give just like a little synopsis? Yes, so Weston Price, back in the 30s and 40s, he studied traditional people, healthy people, and what their diets were, because he wanted to answer this question. What is a healthy diet? I mean, people today don't seem to know. And that's where we get our principles that we teach. These diets were very rich in nutrients
Starting point is 01:10:47 that we get from organ meats and animal fats. And everything they did in their diets was aimed at maximizing the nutrients and maximizing the assimilation of the nutrients from their foods. So, for example, they didn't just eat wheat. They soaked it or they made sourdough bread. And these are processes that break down all the harmful things in the grains
Starting point is 01:11:10 and that help us assimilate them, the good things in the grains. So the Weston A. Price Foundation is a membership foundation. We publish a journal. We have a huge website. Please visit the website and get familiar with it, westonaprice.org. a huge website. We set that up in 1999. At that time, there were probably 30 sources of raw milk in the whole country. Now there's over 3,000.
Starting point is 01:11:55 There's an interactive map. You put your zip code in and you can find the raw milk near you. And descriptions of the farms and what they did. We don't judge them, we just tell you this is what they do. And when we started, there were 27 states that allowed the sale of raw milk in one form or another. Now we're at 47. So we just have three states to go. What are the three states? I think we've got good legislation in Hawaii this year, and Nevada. Those are the only three left. CAITLIN I didn't know that you guys had that many states that were...
Starting point is 01:12:30 DR. CARDENAS-CHAFKIN Yeah, so we're almost there, and then we want to, of course, liberalize things in a lot of states. CAITLIN OK, I have one more question for you. I just wanted to read, you don't need to answer this, I just want to laugh at this, because these questions were just, it's just funny to me how backwards so much of our narrative is around nutrition. So this one was talking about butter and it says,
Starting point is 01:12:51 do you think promoting high-fat diets is reckless in an obesity epidemic? Which is so funny because we know already that butter doesn't make you fat. Well, yes, butter consumption has gone down, obesity, heart disease and cancer have gone up. So it can't be butter causing these things. Yeah. In fact, I think low-fat diets actually promote obesity. Yes, they do, because you're hungry all the time. Exactly. And you compensate by eating a lot of carbs and a lot of seed oils.
Starting point is 01:13:19 We know that seed oils cause obesity. Yeah. So my last question is, what are you hopeful for in this whole movement? Are you feeling hopeful that we are going to be able to change this around? Well, yes and no. There's definitely change, very good change. Slow, it's a small group of people.
Starting point is 01:13:42 What we have going on is what I call the natural selection of the wise. The wise who wise up and eat real foods, cook for themselves, feed their babies right. They will survive and have more children. Whereas, and this is nature's ways, not me saying this, it's nature saying this, those who don't will not survive and will not reproduce. We're already seeing this with widespread infertility, as you know. So this is what I call the natural selection of the wise. It's a slow process.
Starting point is 01:14:16 It will take several generations. But eventually, we will have a healthy population again. MS. FITZPATRICK-STAMPTON Wow. It's heartbreaking when you think about it. Yeah. Well, by the way, members of our foundation receive a lot of really helpful little trifolds that you can give to people.
Starting point is 01:14:37 We have one on butter, we have one on cholesterol. Why cholesterol is so important. So we have one on grains, one on the V word, vaccinations. Oh, I just did an episode. Actually, the last episode that I recorded here in D.C. was with a woman called Alexandra. She has a website called Just The Inserts.
Starting point is 01:15:00 And she's amazing. If you're not aware of her work, I would highly recommend checking her out. She wrote a book about this. And it's called Just the Inserts. And the reason she called it that is because she is taking the information from the vaccine inserts themselves and just sharing it with the public and just saying, hey, this is what the inserts say.
Starting point is 01:15:19 And they believe a lot of stuff out of the inserts too. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, when you eat this way, you don't need to vaccinate, even if vaccination worked. You don't need to take that risk with your children, because this is a diet that creates health. Yeah, it's amazing. Thank you so much for all the work that you're doing.
Starting point is 01:15:40 Thank you for having me. Thank you so much for your time today. Please let everyone know where they can find you personally and your books. Okay. So my blog is nourishingtraditions.com. And I do have on that blog a series of articles called Bringing Up Baby, where I talk about my least favorite book in the world, Baby Lead Weaning. And then the Weston A. Price Foundation is westonaprice.org.
Starting point is 01:16:07 And that's got a huge website where we'd love to have you as a member. We're in a big membership drive right now. We have a conference every year. This one will be in Salt Lake City in October. We have lots of information. We have a wonderful podcast. Our podcast is where I think we're at,
Starting point is 01:16:28 15 million downloads now. And people just love Hilda, our podcast lady. And then our third website would be realmilk.com if you're looking for raw milk. Also a lot of articles about raw milk. And of course you can find a farm near you or a store near you where you can get raw milk. Isn't it interesting?
Starting point is 01:16:47 In California, you can go into any health food store and get raw milk, and people aren't dying like flies there. That's a great point. Everyone I know is buying raw milk from Erwan. Oh, yeah. And they're all still here. Yeah, they're still alive. Thank you so much.
Starting point is 01:17:01 Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening to the Real Foodology podcast. This is a Wellness Loud production produced by Drake Peterson and mixed by Mike Fry. Theme song is by Georgie. You can watch the full video version of this podcast inside the Spotify app or on YouTube. As always, you can leave us a voicemail by clicking the link in our bio. And if you like this episode, please rate and review on your podcast app.
Starting point is 01:17:21 For more shows by my team, go to WellnessLoud.com. See you next time. The content of this show is for educational and informational purposes only. It is not a substitute for individual medical and mental health advice and doesn't constitute a provider-patient relationship. I am a nutritionist, but I am not your nutritionist. As always, talk to your doctor or your health team first.

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