Realfoodology - Wait, There’s More Than One Microbiome? with Ara Katz of Seed Probiotics

Episode Date: February 16, 2022

81: Ara Katz is the co-founder of Seed probiotic - a probiotic that is changing the game.We break down what a probiotic actually is, we talk about the microbiomes you have in different areas of the body - did you know your mouth has one and there's even a microbiome in the vagina? We address what a prebiotic is, what makes Seed stand out, the impact these antibacterial soaps, sprays, gels etc are having on us and so much more! Show Note/Links: https://seed.com/ https://www.instagram.com/arakatz/ Link to the ISAPP recommended catalog for researching strain-specific studies. Oregano oil: Oregano contains compounds called phenols, terpenes, and terpenoids. Carvacrol is the most abundant phenol in oregano, and has been shown to stop the growth of several different types of bacteria. http://www.eurekaselect.com/article/42408 Different species of oregano are among the most studied herbs, and essential oils (EO) of oregano are widely recognized for their antimicrobial activity, in addition to their antiviral and antifungal properties. Studies have also demonstrated that they can be potent antioxidant, anti-inflammatory, antidiabetic, and cancer suppressor agents. https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmicb.2018.02329/full Oregano oil is a well-rounded broad-spectrum antibacterial agent since it covers both gram-negative and gram-positive bacteria. https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmicb.2018.02329/full Important to note: Oregano has a long history of use as a traditional herbal medicine in humans, however, it still needs to be used with caution and it may not be appropriate in all cases. Potential adverse effects include toxicity, skin irritation, medication interference, and more. It’s also important to note that there is lack of evidence for its use during pregnancy / breastfeeding. There is not sufficient research around its safety and tolerability during pregnancy or breastfeeding. Consult your medical provider before use.  Many of the antimicrobial and antibacterial effects of oregano oil depend on its species, mode of extraction, concentration given, etc. Because oregano oil can have very strong antimicrobial activity, taking it for too long a period could negatively impact the microbiome; as such, long-term use is discouraged.

On today's episode of The Real Foodology Podcast. Probiotic is a live microorganism that when it's administered in an adequate dose, confers a benefit to the host. Well, hello. Welcome back to another episode of The Real Foodology Podcast. I am your host, Courtney Swan. Today's episode is all about probiotics. I know that we recently had another episode with a co-founder of an incredible probiotic company, but this is another one that you are not going to want to miss. We go over a lot of different

stuff that we did not cover in the first episode. On today's episode, I interview Aira Katz, who is the co-founder of Seed Probiotic, a probiotic that is changing the game. Chances are you've probably heard of Seed. Maybe you even take it already. I know it is super popular amongst my Instagram community. Just by listening to her talk and listening to her interview, you understand just how much of the research that they dove into and continue to stay on top of while formulating their probiotic. We break down in simple terms, just what a probiotic actually is. We talk about microbiomes in different areas of the body. Did you know that your mouth has one and there's also a vaginal microbiome? We dive into that. We talk about what a prebiotic is. We talk about what a synbiotic is, which is what seed is,

what makes seeds stand out. We also dive into the impact that all these antibacterial soaps, sprays, gels, et cetera, are having on us and our health and our body. And we really talk a lot about antibiotics and the impact that they have on our health as well. With that, let's just dive into the episode. I hope that you enjoy it. This is really exciting. Organifi now has kid stuff. They just released two kid products. One is called Easy Greens, and it's a refreshing green apple juice where kids will never know that it's packed with veggies. And the other one is called Protect. It's a delicious wild berry punch like the Kool-Aid that we used to have as a kid, but without any sugar. This is really exciting. And if you've listened to the podcast for a while, you know that I'm a huge fan of Organifi and most specifically

because every single product that they make is glyphosate residue free. So you know that you're going to be able to give these powders to your kids and know that they will be able to consume them safely without any glyphosate in it. So let's break down each one. The Easy Greens is a nourishing and delicious blend of superfoods and veggies that provides essential nutrients, probiotics, and digestive enzymes to bring balance to kids' growing bodies without fillers, additives, or junk. It helps to fill in nutritional gaps, aids in growth and development, supports digestive health, has a rich micronutrient profile, and includes digestive enzymes. This would be a great way to sneak in greens for your little one without them actually knowing that it's healthy for them. And the second one, which is the wild berry punch similar to Kool-Aid, is called Protect, and it is

to support your child's daily immune health with food-derived nutrients that work to strengthen their body's first line of defense. I know just through girlfriends of mine that have children that when your kids are going to school, going to daycare, they're coming home sick a lot more often just because they're getting exposed to different kids and different viruses when they're out in the world playing with kids. So this would be a great way to help to support your little one's immune health.

It's organic, and it's also made with real whole food ingredients. It immune health. It's organic and it's also made with real whole food ingredients. It has a delicious berry taste and it's low sugar and it's gentle enough for kids to take every single day. And I really love the ingredients in this one. It's orange and acerol cherry, which is a powerful source of vitamin C and antioxidants, astragalus, elderberry, and propolis. These are all really great for overall immune health. If you want to try the products that I talked about today or any of the Organifi products, go to Organifi.com slash realfoodology and use code realfoodology for 20% off. Again, that's Organifi. It's O-R-G-A-N-I-F-I.com slash realfoodology. Do you want to hear the biggest discovery of our time for promoting healthy aging? Of course you do because all of us are concerned about aging. There is a class of ingredients called senolytics

that were discovered less than 10 years ago and they are being called the biggest discovery of our time for promoting healthy aging and enhancing your physical prime. Now when I'm talking about aging here, I'm not just talking about on a superficial level, wrinkles and saggy skin. I'm talking about energy, joint pain, your ability to show up for your life, cognitive function. I'm talking about the real effects of cellular aging on the body and what it does to our body as we age. Now, as we age, everyone accumulates something called senescent cells in their body. They cause symptoms of aging, such as aches and discomfort, slow workout recoveries, sluggish mental and physical energy associated with that middle age feeling. They're also known as zombie cells. They're old and worn out and not serving

a useful function for our health anymore, but they're taking up space and nutrients from our healthy cells. Much like pruning the yellowing and dead leaves off of a plant, qualia senolytic removes those worn out senescent cells to allow for the rest of them to thrive in the body. And you just take these supplements two days a month. That's right. Just two days a month. Qualia Synalytic is an amazing product that helps to remove these senescent cells. And if you want to hear more about the product and more about these senescent cells that affect aging, go back to the episode that I did with Dr. Greg Kelly of neurohacker. So you can dive more into the details of all of it. But the formula that

I'm talking about qualia senolytic is non GMO. It's vegan, it's gluten free, and the ingredients are meant to complement one another, factoring in the combined effect of all the ingredients together. If for some reason you don't like the product, you're not feeling the effects of it, it also has a 100 day money back guarantee. If you want to resist aging at the cellular level, try qualia senolytic, go to neurohacker.com slash real foodology for up to a hundred dollars off and make sure to use code real foodology at checkout for an additional 15% off. That's neurohacker, N E U R O H A C K E R.com slash real foodology for an extra 15% off your purchase.

Thanks to neurohacker for sponsoring today's episode. So, well, let's just get started. Why don't you tell everyone a little bit about you and seed and what it is? My, my name is Ara Katz. I'm the co-founder and co-CEO of Seed Health. And we work in the invisible world of microbes, which means mostly bacteria. But our kind of official mission is to pioneer the applications of microbes for human and environmental health. And to put that in kind of earthling terms, that means looking at how you can use, again, mostly bacteria to impact all kinds of aspects of human health, everything from GI and kind of gut-related conditions and certainly benefits and endpoints, all the way to thinking about how you can use microbes to even make novel food ingredients, to pediatric health, infant health, maternal health, vaginal microbiome work, oral microbiome, so thinking about microbes of the

mouth, skin microbiome, and then on the environmental side, thinking about, you know, how we apply, and our first two tracks of research are looking at probiotics for honeybees and for coral reefs. So really looking, you know, at all these ways that we can harness kind of the potential of bacteria to impact the health of, you know, all living organisms and ecosystems and ecologies, I'm sure we'll get into, mostly in the form of probiotics in the more scientific definition, not the United States grocery store definition, which I'm sure we can get into too. But more than just our research, you know, in our innovation work, we also really spend a tremendous amount of time educating and using the microbiome and microbes as kind of this new lens

through which we can really understand our bodies and probably most applicable to today how we use the under these learnings and and what's so fascinating about microbiome is that so much of the research and what we understand and of course food and diet being so central to this is that we we spend a lot of time educating and being able to translate these findings and what we're learning about this world of microbes that also live within us and reside in on around us, and how that informs the choices we make every day. Because it really is revolutionizing medicine, science, health, and certainly just like our lens on the world, which is really exciting.

Yeah. I mean, that was the biggest thing for me when I found out that we were more bacteria than we are actually human. I was blown away. And also it just made me realize how, um, how much more, how important this is and how we really need to be paying attention to all the stuff that we're spraying, all the antibacterial soaps and gels and all the stuff that we're doing. I mean, it's, we don't, I don't even think we know the full ramification of what we're doing right now. Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, we're, we're not more, we're, we're about 50, 50 by one of the last science, scientific papers counts. That's a, that's a stat that gets a little bit sensationalized. Where it comes from was that there was a sense that there was a 10 to 1 of microbes, not just bacteria, to human cells. The last paper that we reference a lot is from the Weissman Institute

in Israel that put us at about 50-50, which is still extraordinary to think you're half human. And then another stat that gets a little bit sensationalized but is interesting, which is still still extraordinary to think you're half human um and then what's another stat that gets a little bit sensationalized but is interesting um but shouldn't be kind of maybe overhyped is that our microbial our microbes express about 99 percent like 99 times the amount of genes than our human cells so like genomically there's a lot more genetic material from microbes, which is like a significant amount. The difference is they're not really one to one, right? Like human genes code for really important things. And certainly, I think there's ones you wouldn't want to live without. Whereas microbial genes, you know, are obviously important, but just different.

Yeah. Oh, that's interesting. Okay. Well, thank you for correcting me on that. I had not, I had heard the more sensationalized version of that. So you, I want to clarify this for people, for people, you kind of touched on it a little bit, but I want to talk about this more because I don't think that a lot of people understand this entirely. So when we talk about the microbiome, generally people are talking about the gut, but what people don't know is that we have a microbiome in our mouth, in our vagina, our skin has its own microbiome. Can you talk about that a little bit? Absolutely. So I think, you know, look, rightfully so, because the research so much started in the gut and of all the ecologies and all the ecosystems that are microbiomes of the body, the gut is the most diverse. It probably is the most cross-functional,

which I'm sure we'll get into too. And it's where so much of our early understanding of microbiome started. So you are correct that the actual human microbiome is the community of microbes that live in, on, and around us. Not even the ones ones like there's something called an exposome too, which is like kind of this microbial cloud that's as distinct as your fingerprint. You know, it's kind of like for anyone who believes in auras, it's probably the closest biological explanation for one. But absolutely you are right that then within the human microbiome, that huge community, which some scientists put at around 100 trillion microbes, you know, about 38 trillion of which are bacteria. We then have the nasal microbiome, the oral microbiome, so then the nose, the mouth. In a COVID world, I think we've become really aware of some of these other ecosystems, which we were before. The skin, the vagina, the belly button, the eye, the optical microbiome, the ear.

And even, by the way, there's a nipple microbiome. There's certain tissues that they're starting to discover have their own microbiome, there's some early evidence to suggest that the brain may or may not have microbes, which is something that's still being kind of looked at. Then there's, of course, the, like, from a pregnancy perspective, there's a lot of, you know, dispute in science as to whether or not there's a fetal microbiome or whether or not the womb is sterile. And so each one of those ecosystems, which is most important to take away is that they're totally different, which means that, you know, there's like 700 species of microbes in your mouth that are totally distinct from the species that you find on your skin. So if you think about like the environment, you think about like a desert, and then you think about a rainforest, and you think about like a tundra, and then you think about all these different like,

you know, ecologies that, you know, different biomes, our bodies are truly no different, which is really interesting. And each one is so distinct. And so the gut, yes, people just say when they say microbiome, typically today, they mean just like gut health or gut microbiome but really actually all these other fields are emerging and that are incredibly impactful and important and to your point about like the things that were that we've learned about the environment and the way we live in a modern society each one of these microbiomes is impacted very differently there was just an article this past weekend, a huge study that came out around the effects of climate change on preterm birth. And preterm birth is directly impacted by the vaginal microbiome or that they are, of course, the vaginal microbiome plays a role in preterm birth. And so you can just see how, and of course I could get into skin and

laundry detergent and cleaning products and obesity. And, you know, there's all kinds of correlations that we're starting to see with each of these microbiomes, not just the gut. Yeah. So what I'm curious about is when you take an oral probiotic, does that just help your gut microbiome or will those bacteria strains also help the other microbiomes around your body? Or are there specific strains you should take for a specific area, like different microbiomes around your body? Or are there specific strains you should take for specific area, like different microbiomes on your body? It's a great question. I mean, kind of like what we did with microbiome, we should probably just define what a probiotic is first. Because it's a term that is so misused and misinformed. And then I think also really important to denote, I don't know how much of your audience is US versus overseas, but in the EU and other places in the world like Japan and Australia,

there's a very stringent definition and a regulatory around the use of the term probiotic and it's a very specific and very protected and stewarded term. In the US, unfortunately, it is not a regulated term. Hence, of course, the probiotic tortilla chips, chocolate, pillowcases, and all kinds of home cleaning products. And so, you know, it's hard. So it's even doubly confusing when you're standing in front of that aisle, because now you're standing in every aisle and you're seeing the term probiotic. And what it really means, which was defined actually by a panel, a UN WHO panel that started in 2001. And then the definition was revised again in 2011, which was led by one of our chief scientists, Dr. Gregor Reed,

states that a probiotic is a live microorganism that when it's administered in an adequate dose confers a benefit to the host. And if you unpack that, live meaning it's a live microbe. So there's a lot of things, a lot of skincare who say they're probiotic skincare. For example, they're using lysates, which means that they're dead bugs, essentially dead microbes. Live meaning also, and there's obviously a lot of variability in how people interpret this, but that you can demonstrate some aspect of survivability through the body. Then, of course, the notion of an adequate dose, which means that it's been studied in some sort of clinical setting to establish a dose of how much should be taken. Again, another loophole that a lot of, because it's not regulated in the U.S., companies just add microbes to say something's probiotic with honestly no specificity as to which strain of bacteria, nor how much.

And then, of course, confers a benefit to the host, which is that's you. In this case, a human, although it could be a dog, it could be, you know, other organisms. And that means that it has some sort of biomarker that's been measured to confer and an endpoint that's been measured in some sort of clinical work. And so when you put that all together, you know, probiotics are a pretty serious field of science. When it goes through FDA trials, they're called live biotherapeutics. But when they're sold as consumer and under kind of more of the consumer health umbrella, uh, or regulatory band, it's called a probiotic, at least in the U S. And so that's what a probiotic is. And so just to unpack that in terms of your question, every, like putting all probiotics

together is like, it would be like saying to you, uh, I like food with no further specificity or like plants with like absolutely no specificity of like what it is, which one, what are you talking about? A bag of chips? You're talking about like a pepper, you know, it's like there's thousands and thousands of strains of bacteria. And so what strain is it? How is it being in? How much, how much is somebody consuming of it? What is the delivery method? How is it going into the body? Is where, where is it being, how much is somebody consuming of it? What is the delivery method? How is it going into the body? Where is it getting to in the body?

And what was it studied for to have an endpoint for? So it's very hard to answer your question with this like blank canvas approach because every strain is very different. Now, a lot of the early research research kind of like why microbiome means gut health so much of the early research in the field was around gi and like localized benefits in the gi system particularly related to digestion because a lot of the early research came out of relics these a lot of the strains that were kind of relics of the dairy industry um and so a lot of and of course it was very easy easier to study stool than it is to like go inside

the body so there and so a lot of the early research and and the most robust amount of research has been done on like digestion so everything from the strains that have been demonstrated to reduce antibiotic associated diarrhea all the way to some of the strains for example that we work with that have been noted to very specifically trigger, for example, the neurotransmitters that triggered motility that help with like moving stool along, for example. And so every strain, I would just say the specificity really matters. It's kind of like, you know, if you go back to like sixth grade bio and you remember the taxonomies, it's like a lot of brands don't even tell you what strain it is. They just say the species, which is the equivalent of like having a dog and not knowing it was a, you know, a poodle, which would be strange. But I would say the specificity matters. And then

to your question of can they have an impact, can oral ingestion of a probiotic supplement have an impact beyond the gut? There's, I think one of the most interesting things is that there's a number of strains. I mean, certainly there's a lot of sensationalization around this, right? Like a lot of people say, take this probiotic for skin health or take this probiotic. I think one of the areas where I think we really feel that the oral supplementation of probiotics has been the most inflated is for women, especially has been around the idea of vaginal health and the idea that oral supplementation of probiotics and how that could work even geographically and and there and there's some evidence to suggest but i think we feel that's one of the looser areas that

have been suggested around like uh where or an example where oral oral supplementation may not be that impactful. However, there are very specific axes. I think one of the interesting parts of the gut microbiome that's so exciting is that, you know, I feel like every day there's some new axes we're starting to understand. So there's like the gut-lung axis. And so understanding the relationship between the gut and our respiratory system, for example. There's the gut-brain axis, which is another area that the research is incredibly exciting and promising, but certainly from a consumer and opportunism perspective has also been a bit overinflated, but of course, nonetheless, incredibly important when it comes to food, really, really important for sure.

And then there's the gut-skin axis. So there are certain things for which ingesting a microbe would not have an impact on very specific skin conditions. And then there's areas, for example, things like eczema, psoriasis, atopic dermatitis, where there's really promising strains, specific data around how that specific microbes, when ingested orally, can dampen specific inflammatory responses responsible for some of those flare-ups and for some of those conditions, those topical or externally expressed conditions. We have a couple of strains in our formulation of our adult symbiotic that include, for example, strains that dampen that inflammatory response. And then there's the gut-liver axis, which is another really interesting area for us because that is the axis by which a couple of the strains we work with impact cardiovascular health,

in this case cholesterol reuptake into the body. And so on the gut-liver axis, there's microbes that can work to dampen and actually reduce the reuptake of circulating cholesterol. So that has obviously cardiovascular benefits. And then, of course, even though it happens in the gut, there's probably very relevant for any conversation around nutrition or diet or, you know, is that, you know, the gut also is responsible for and there are now certain microbes that we've started to see that increase the metabolic activity for synthesizing, you know, very specific vitamins, for example, and compounds that your human body cannot make. So like specific B vitamins, vitamin K, for example, which your human body is incapable of making, but has to be made by microbes. And so there's specific microbes that we're starting to now study that can increase that activity, meaning increasing the endogenous production of those

vitamins and really specific and important compounds. So that does happen in the gut, but of course that has implications. And of course, some of the short chain fatty acids that your gut metabolizes also from food also has implications, you know, way outside the gut and really has systemic benefits. So both microbes that can work on the different axes and have an impact internally and systemically, as well as what your microbes do with certain compounds that then have impacts around the body as well, which all can be and are starting to be seen to be influenced by not just your resident microbes, but the ingestion of or supplementation of very specific strains of bacteria. Wow, that's fascinating. I actually

haven't even heard that yet. A lot of what you have been talking about today, I'm blown away by, which this is my favorite part about podcasting is I learned so much. That's fascinating. So as a non-scientist working in a life science company, I get to learn a lot every day too. I of course have a lot of domain expertise now in our world, but honestly the science moves so quickly and there's so much, there's kind of always more layers of depth to it. So I feel the excitement that you do now on a daily basis, truly, because it's such an exciting field. Imagine having a metabolic coach in your pocket that you could access at any point, any time in the day, whenever you want. That's what Lumen is. Lumen is the world's first handheld

metabolic coach. It's a device that measures your metabolism through your breath. And on the app, it lets you know if you're burning fat or carbs and gives you tailored guidance to improve your nutrition, workout, sleep, and even stress management. I have so many podcast episodes about metabolic flexibility and why it is so incredibly important for your overall health and longevity. And now thanks to Lumen, you can actually see in real time your body's ability to efficiently switch between using different fuel sources like carbs and fats. There's preferred times to use each and how well you can switch places between burning

carbs versus burning fats will tell you a lot about what is going on in your metabolism and where you are in the metabolic flexibility spectrum. All you have to do is breathe into your lumen first thing in the morning, and you'll know what's going on with your metabolism, whether you're burning mostly fats or carbs, then lumen gives you a personalized nutrition plan for that day. Based on your measurements, you can also breathe into it before and after workouts and meals. So you know exactly what's going on in your body in real time. And lumen will give you tips to keep you on top of your health game. Why is this so important? Your metabolism is your body's engine. It's how

your body turns the food you eat into the fuel that keeps you going because your metabolism is at the center of everything your body does. Optimal metabolic health translates to a bunch of benefits, including easier weight management, improved energy levels, better fitness results, better sleep, and more. Now this is a really cool feature too. It can actually track your cycle as well as the onset of menopause and adjust your recommendations to keep your metabolism healthy through hormonal shifts. So if you want to take the next step in improving your health, go to lumen.me and use real foodology to get $100 off your Lumen. That is L U M E N dot M E and use real foodology at checkout for a hundred dollars off. Thank you so much to Lumen for sponsoring this episode. Did you know that most cookware and appliances are made with forever chemicals?

Yes. That means your nonstick pans, your air fryers, your waffle makers, your blender could possibly have PFAS, and yes, even our beloved crockpots and pressure cookers. I have actually been talking about this for so long. Back in 2006, my mom came to my dorm room and made me get rid of all my nonstick pans because she was concerned about me being exposed to something called Teflon. Teflon is a coating that is used on nonstick pans and a lot of these appliances that I just named. So I've avoided Teflon. Teflon is a coating that is used on nonstick pans and a lot of these appliances that I just named. So I've avoided Teflon, nonstick, PFA coated appliances, pots and pans, you name it, for a very long time. And the only option for a very long time was just stainless steel pots and pans. So I was really excited when a company like our place came out because they started creating really beautiful cookware and appliances that are like pieces of art.

Every appliance that I have from our place, I legit want to store it on the counter. And I'm the type of person that does not want anything on my counter because I like it to look really just clean and minimal. But I'm so obsessed with all the our place products that I have so many of them displayed on my counter because they are legit pieces of art. Our Place is a mission-driven and female-founded brand that makes beautiful kitchen products that are healthy and sustainable. All their products are made without PFAS, which are the forever chemicals, and also made without PTFE, which is Teflon. If a company is not outwardly stating that they don't use these chemicals,

then if they are using nonstick coating on their appliances, they are absolutely using forever chemicals. And there's been increasing global scrutiny for their impact on the environment and our health and recognizing this impact. The EU plans to prohibit PFAS by 2025. Our place has always been PFAS free and they offer durable toxin free ceramic coatings, ensuring a healthy, safe cooking experience. And let me tell you, you guys, they are changing the game with non-toxic appliances. They have a blender, they have an air fryer, they have a crock pot, not to mention they're amazing always pan. They have a perfect pot, which is just the perfect size for soups. And they also just came out with a cast iron that I'm loving as well. And I more recently replaced all of the bowls and plates in my kitchen because I really needed an

upgrade. My other ones were so old. So I got some from our place and they are so beautiful. The ceramics are beautiful. The colors are amazing. Like I said, everything is like a piece of art. If you want to try any of the products from our place, go to fromourplace.com and enter my code realfoodology at checkout to receive 10% off sitewide. That's fromourplace.com, code realfoodology. Our place offers a 100-day trial with free shipping and returns. Yeah, it really is. Because like you said, I mean, I feel like more than anything else, this field is exploding right now because we have really started to understand the impact that it has on our health. And it's exciting that we're learning all this cool new stuff. So what are some ways outside of taking a probiotic that people,

let's take it two different routes, either ways that they are destroying their microbiome and then what are ways that they can support it? Sure. So, you know, so I think destroying is obviously like a really, a term that I would just put very large air quotes around because I think, you know, again, it's another area that gets a bit sensationalized in certain ways that without any kind of the nuance added to it, but, you know, there's some really big ones. The indiscriminate use of antibiotics is really important to consider. There's about 251 million prescriptions of antibiotics written every year in the United States, over half of which are for things that have no bacterial origin. And the overuse of antibiotics is really challenging for a number of reasons. So first from like an individual perspective,

of course, you know, particularly for broad spectrum antibiotics, it's kind of like nuclear bombing, you know, your gut pretty consistently. And there are a lot of people who are on pretty consistent regimens of like antibiotics, multiple courses per year. And so it's not that one once in a while, particularly look, antibiotics will save your life in the right moments. And so it's not that one, once in a while, particularly look, antibiotics will save your life in the right moments. And they're one of the greatest inventions that I think of modern medicine. So I'm not, you know, and, and, and certainly there's lots of antimicrobial compounds also in, in, you know, everything from oregano oil to all, you know, all kinds of food compounds too. So, you know, antimicrobial itself is not just something that comes from medication, but certainly taking a beet and or not just using them more prophylactically or

preventively and making sure they're needed is something that I would say is incredibly important, both for your own gut, which we are actually, we have an interesting trial going now. And there's a lot of people who've been looking at the impact of the, or the, the recovery time of a microbiome, of some, an individual's microbiome and the presence of broad spectrum antibiotics. And, you know, it's not as, I think, again, it gets a little sensationalized because you do see a rebound effect. But of course that, that rebound and that resilience has to do with so many other factors like diet, nutrition, any other underlying, you know, comorbidity, other, you know, other things that are going on with somebody. So I think it's more the volume of how much they're being abused.

But then of course, the biggest problem with antibiotic overuse is antibiotic resistance, which is that now that our antibiotics are starting to not work. And I think that poses a much greater threat. Some, I will not be the doomsday podcast, but I would say some say that maybe our downfall as humans. And so I would say that that's probably not just for yourself, but also the overuse is something that then creates and trains these, you know, microbes to be more resistant and therefore not work across the population. And so as they're intended. And so, of course,

that has other big problems for us down the road. I'd say, you know, and then of course, just staying on the antimicrobial track, I think there's, you know, and this is a really nuanced part of the conversation, particularly with COVID, which is, you know, I think we've had over a century, if not more, of pretty much being fairly obsessed with killing all bacteria and all microbes. You know, you can go back to ads from like the earth of 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, particularly like house cleaning ads, and you know, even that women's health, vaginal health adds back to the 50s and 60s that you couldn't you couldn't believe existed at that time. Yeah. Of the notion of killing all bacteria, particularly from the place of hygiene, odor, you know, a lot of puritanical rooted ideas of what being clean and what that meant was. And of course that created, you know, industries that really loaded both foods, our cleaning products, our homes and our lives. The way we, the way we thought about oral microbiome

as like killing entire ecologies. If you think about it, it's not dissimilar to what we've done to the environment, right? Like everything, you know, pesticides have, you know, analogies with the way we've thought about everything from skincare and treating acne to treating, you know, pesticides have, you know, analogies with the way we've thought about everything from skincare and treating acne to treating, you know, to mouthwash, right? And so that in itself, this notion, and certainly having decades and decades, now centuries, of a history of just killing all microbes has had a cumulative effect. There's a great book by one of our advisors called Missing Microbes, which is this really looking at tracking the correlation of how over time between a lack of fiber in our diet, which I think is one of the next ones I could call out, plus obviously all the things I just mentioned like antibiotics and the antimicrobial and hygiene obsession has correlated with a real

drop in the diversity of the ecosystem of our gut specifically. And as that, you know, it's kind of sometimes referred to as the climate change of our insides. If you think we've lost, you know, what is it, over 60% of the species of just birds in North America, very similar things have happened, you know, within our gut. And so with less diversity comes less resilience, right? Comes less ability to tolerate all the things that happen out in the world and the information and stressors that come in every day. And they've correlated that now with the rise of autoimmune conditions,

asthma, of course, all of these non-communicable diseases, type 2 diabetes, and of course, these things that are now killing us more than communicable diseases are, which is we used to die of things that were contagious. And now we die of things that are not contagious. And that's been highly correlated with the drop in diversity and certainly certain aspects of our microbiome changing so much over time. But so we have kind of like antibiotics, the kind of notion of antimicrobial, which for people who are always asking me the question, like, well, we've been hand sanitizing for two years now, and isn't that killing all the microbes on our skin? And, you

know, the truth is it's like look when we started washing our hands before surgery people stopped dying in surgery so you know it's you have to find the right balance think thankfully the microbiome of the palm and the hand is not really a very diverse environment already to begin with um and truthfully, the, the, the, the, the cost benefit of, of having clean hands, um, in general, uh, as it relates to the spread of disease and germs, um, is probably more better than whatever you're doing to your skin microbiome for the little bit that you're using, you know, hand sanitizer over the course of your life. So, but of course there's again, nuance and that's very, always hard to understand that. Yeah. And so, and then, and then I think there's other things, you know, that, that really start to tie in things that are lesser known.

So there's certain sugar replacements can be really impactful to the gut microbiome. A lot of the sucraloses and aspartames and things like that, that are, that are often used to replace things in foods um can be really damaging to the gut microbiome um a lot of people don't know but like antacids and pepsids and tums those can be can be quite impactful um particularly again because people uh pop them there's a lot of over a lot and we have so many digestive issues in our culture, or certainly in Western culture, that those get quite overused. And then also NSAIDs, so non-steroidal anti-inflammatory. So we kind of pop Advil like it's nothing, too. And those also have a damaging effect on the microbiome. So I think being mindful of medicines, not just antibiotics, I think is something to be thoughtful about. And obviously any other strong, really strong antimicrobials. So of course, for people who are more functional, integrative, alternative,

and who veer more towards the organic or natural world, like even things like oregano oil are incredibly powerful antimicrobials used sometimes in, you know, agriculture or livestock as a replacement for real antibiotics. So, you know, I think sometimes people think just because something's like from a plant, it couldn't possibly be as strong, but actually it really can be. Garlic too. Garlic too, right? Yeah. Raw garlic. Sure. Yeah. You know, right? Raw garlic. It's always a cost benefit with that because, of course, inulin is also a great prebiotic, which has a prebiotic effect in the gut.

So with garlic, I would say it also depends how you're consuming it. Whereas oregano usually gets consumed in the oil for that purpose. Absolutely. Well, I had a question there actually for oil of oregano, because I, this is kind of a newer concept to me when I started posting about oil of oregano saying, you know, I'm taking this while I'm sick. A lot of people were writing me saying like, oh, wait, are you sure? Like, I heard that that kills the whole microbiome and it's really bad for you. And, you know, so what, what really is the answer there? Like, should we take it when we have a virus or is it too powerful? You know, antibacterial won't do much, I think, from a virus perspective.

Yeah, sorry. I meant more. Yeah. So look, the truth is I have not dove into the literature, nor has our team to really derive like what would be a good dose of oregano oil at a given amount of time. Like, you know, it kind of goes back to the probiotics question, which is, well, how much, how long, when in the presence of what symptoms and would you know that it's bacterial or viral and would that do anything? And I think, I do know it has been studied. I just honestly have not dove as deep

into the literature on that to really understand the specificity. Yeah. Other than just to say that it is used as an antibiotic, a broad spectrum antibiotic. And I know specifically in like livestock and certainly in other areas. But it's strong. So I think because it's natural, people just like literally just like keep dosing it into their mouth, you know, like every day for like six days and being like, it's work, you know? And, and so it is a little bit hard, but I would say I would veer on the side of caution with things that are indiscriminately antimicrobial. Um, when particularly when, if you, when you don't have all the information about what you might be experiencing, um, my guess is that for a fairly healthy person with a fairly resilient microbiome and good immune system generally, and it's just a, it's probably not

hurting you. I just, I can't speak to the exact benefits of it in terms of dosage and how long, but we're happy to get back to you and put it in the show notes. Okay. Yeah. I was just more curious because that's kind of a newer concept to me. And so I figured maybe my audience would want to know. So you also touched on prebiotics, which I wanted to talk about because I feel like, um, these are probiotics. Everyone by now kind of knows about them. Like you said, you can see it, you can find them in drinks and chips and everything else, but prebiotics, I feel like aren't really talked about a lot just yet. Can you explain to people kind of how they can get prebiotics, what they are exactly and why they're important? Absolutely. So, so unlike probiotics, which, and I think they actually get, um, conflated quite, quite a bit. Um, you know, prebiotics are not, uh, are not microbial. Um, they, and, and you know, the, what they, what they, they kind of function in two different ways, which is kind of interesting.

I think a lot of people who know what prebiotics are kind of think about it in the first way. But they function either as a food source for microbes in your gut, meaning they help microbes proliferate, or they are a compound that microbes can metabolize into something else that is beneficial for the body. So a great example, there's obviously like fiber-based prebiotics where you, you know, of course, you know, hear about from like a lot of the food sources of prebiotics. There's non-fermentable plant compounds. Those are, those function as prebiotics, which is like a great example in our adult product, our DSO1 symbiotic. The prebiotic in that, in our symbiotic is sourced from the skin of Indian pomegranate. It's a compound called

punicalgin. That's a great example of a non-fermentable plant compound, which means that, and for people who are on low FODMAP diets, it's important to know because a lot of the fermentative prebiotics can be quite GI disrupting for people who have specific conditions or have to be on specific diets.

But non-fermenting plant compounds are interesting because polyphenol, in this case, punicalians, obviously there's polyphenols. Ours happens to be biotransformed or metabolized into something called urolithin A. So like they get turned into things like short chain fatty acids, which then have other benefits throughout the body. And so there's a couple of different forms of prebiotics. And then I'd say one of the most interesting ones for any moms or parents in your audience are, there are others like HMOs, which are these human milk oligosaccharides, not to be confused with insurance groups for healthcare offerings, which are human milk oligosaccharides,

which are the carbohydrates, about a third of the carbohydrates in breast milk are not actually digestible by the human body. They are purely a food source for the infant's developing microbiome. So you can look and think about how human breast milk evolved, which is incredible. And I could go do a whole episode with you on the nipple microbiome and the microbes that evolved in the nipple and the microbes that live inside the baby's mouth that go back into the nipple that help digest lactose like i it's incredible wow but the hmos are not like the first prebiotic um really is the hmo that comes from breast milk um and those are uh those are really interesting those are um oligosaccharides. So they're different,

you know, different obviously forms of prebiotics, but they're very often conflated with kind of like microbiome, but health prebiotics are sometimes only thought of as fiber, but actually it's not just, which is one form for sure. But obviously there's these other kinds that I just mentioned, which are these really interesting plant compounds that don't ferment and are good for people with on fab loaf, you know, low FODMAP diets, as well as obviously things like HMOs, which are breast milk, which is really the OG prebiotics. Yeah. That's fascinating. So let's talk a little bit about seeds. So, um, first of all, there's so many different probiotics on the market. How, how does one find a really good high quality probiotic and what does, uh, what does seed do differently that kind of makes you guys stand out?

So, I mean, there's a, there's a few different things. I mean, to how to find, I mean, it's, it, the answer is in a, in, in a, in, depending on where you are in the world and depending on like what regulatory system you're within, you know, it's a hard question because there really isn't a lot of transparency required of most companies. And it's really hard to know what is actually in something. And I think there's been a lot of studies to show that even what's on the label is very rarely often reflected in what's in actual product and what you're consuming and whether or not that's consistently in the product, which I think is, of course, another problem of kind of the, not the under-regulation, but certainly the under-enforcement of specific regulation, which of course is a problem in more in the U.S. than in other places. And so, you know, the first is of course the strain specificity, which I think is just really important, which is, you know, there are just a lot of companies and brands or products that often just add in a microbe or just say that by having a

microbe in it, it is a probiotic without any of the burden of having to have the evidence for that. And so the hard thing is that, look, most people aren't going to go look up on PubMed and figure out whether or not the study's real and whether or not it was done. How was it done? Where was it done? Was it just done by the contract manufacturer? Or was it done in an academic setting? Like, you know, there's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of nuance even to the things I'm saying, because a lot of those, you know, of course, a lot of companies, brands have gotten really smart. And now they say this study, you know, very few people can go into a scientific study and then say, well, was this the right dosage? Is this the right strains? How was

this conducted? Was it randomized control trial? Was there a placebo? How was this, you know, what was the, how was the data analyzed? Who analyzed it? Was it published in an academic journal or is this a study that, you know, and so there's so much nuance to that. And so, you know, the, the, I can tell you like a lot of the things I would look for, which are, which, which strains, there's a catalog online that's put out by ISAP. So if you do know the strain, you can actually look up whether or not it was studied by a third party, which I think is important and happy to send that to you again for your community. And then, you know, and I think there's, look, there's one thing that consumers are, well,

maybe not every consumer can read a scientific paper, is they're savvy, right? Like there are other cues that you can really pick up on, you know, who, how is the company speaking about these things? Does it feel that they're using language that has integrity? That's not too sensational. Are they making any disease claims? Are they using language like IBS? Are they using language like, you can't even say constipation. I mean, you can't, I mean, that, I mean, you have to be, that is, that is, those are areas in the U S that are very clear. And we see things all the time and we're like, wow, I want to be on the other side of that lawsuit. And also, who wants to mislead people?

And look, I would say, look, a lot of my, I don't want my skepticism to come off as I think any of this is malicious. I think very few companies have put in place a lot of the rigor, um, and I think the accountability that we have, but obviously we work the level of science and scientists that we work with is something that we feel. Um, and also of course, the, the way that we really wanted to show up in the world with a kind of accountability, I think is something that was missing in this industry. Um, and continues to be something we really would love to steward and inspire other companies to do better, um, with, and that goes across, that's just that, not just probiotics, but I think there's a lot of

areas of health and wellness where you have people who are really susceptible to not, and don't fully understand certain things and therefore are buying products that, that may or may not have, you know, the evidence and, or the accountability for what they're saying. And so, you know, I think there are certainly the things you can look for in the label. You so, you know, I think there are certainly the things you can look for in the label. Um, you know, we, when you asked me what we do differently, I mean, there's lots of things, everything from, you know, the way that we obviously continue to contribute to moving science forward. Right. So, uh, a lot of people just licensed a lot of strains, put them in a product, make the claims that the contract manufacturer said was you could say,

and, you know, they're off to more spending their time on branding and um and commercialization and certainly that's a part of what we do because we are a business um but we we have you know our product that is our dso1 daily symbiotic is in four clinical trials right now um looking at really novel other areas of impact um we're always further characterizing how to have more specificity and really fully understand the impact of something. So for a great example is like a lot of people use CFU. You know, you see that big billions number. And really that doesn't mean much because CFU just says, okay, these are the colony forming units that were there at time of manufacture. What you don't know is which one of them are active.

And then I think one of the next papers we're going to be publishing is not only are they active and surviving at different time points, which means that they survive on the shelf for a particular amount of time. We have survivability data actually beyond the shelf, all the way through an ex vivo system that demonstrates 100% survivability into the colon that has to do with our delivery system and the way our capsule and capsule works and the protection that it offers through digestion. And so we've been able to demonstrate the survivability, which we just published in the paper. And then the next thing that we're really excited about that's going to come out in a paper

soon is, well, now that we know they're surviving, do we know about what are they metabolically doing? Are they, are they still metabolically active? And I would say like, you know, when you think about companies that are pushing forward that, that kind of specificity, like that's the kind of things. And by the way, I look for that in other areas of my life, whether it's buying technology or buying something for my child. Um, those are really important, you know, cues that, you know, there's a company that also

really wants to be doing great science and really thinking about what the future of a field could be so that you can make a greater impact in health. And so, you know, those are certainly things, I think the testing, of course, the clinical work company that's actively engaging in academia, publishing, putting things up for peer review. I mean, I think these are cues of companies that I think are following a little bit more of like the life science and the rigor that I think the scientific community expects from companies that would like to expect more from the companies that are kind of less regulated. And so those are a few of the cues. And then, of course, look, the greatest, the greatest, the greatest thing to look for and to understand sometimes, which, you know, is outside of clinical work and really outside of science is,

you know, is it effective and does it help you? You and, and sometimes look that that's nuanced. That's a whole other episode on everything from placebo effect to the fact that people change 20 things in their life at the same time often, but overwhelmingly, I think you start to have an understanding, particularly at scale of when some, a product or an innovation or, you know, a specific strain, depending on what you're studying, is just very effective for people. And I think that we've, you know, we don't share testimonials, but obviously the efficacy of what, at least of our first product and what we've built, has been well established, even just anecdotally through the amount of people that respond and obviously how quickly this product has scaled, which obviously we're incredibly proud

of, but more importantly, just really care tremendously about continuing to steward that when, you know, when people write to you every day about their health problems, you can't help but feel so much responsibility to not just, by the way, continue to do what you're doing, but also to figure out how you can then, could that help more people? That's the first question. But also in science, what you're always looking for is why is it doing this? And so a lot of our trials and a lot of our work now is trying to unpack the things that people tell us to understand mechanistically, like how could this intervention, even though it wasn't something we studied to begin with, be impacting so many people who have X. And when you start to understand that, you can then start to think about like, well,

what would that mean for another product or how, what would that mean for a way that we could then make that available to more people who experience X, right? So I think that that's something that's really interesting and we're really proud of. And then, you know, I could rattle off all kinds of things like whole genome sequencing and a million tests that we run that we certainly don't have to, that I think are really impactful. And of course the strain selection. And as I mentioned, we have a really interesting and novel delivery system and prebiotic. But I think the fact that of course we engage in peer review science and with some of the greatest scientists working in microbiome in the world, I think is something we're really proud of, but also something we work

vehemently to protect every day. Yeah. That's really important. I mean, and the product speaks for itself. I have to tell you, I recently did some posts on my Instagram about probiotics and almost every single reply was people asking me what I thought about seed because they loved it. And I was like, wow, this is incredible. I had, I mean, I can't even tell you how many people were writing me about it because they said that they loved it. So I was blown away. I was like, wow, that's great. That's great to hear. And look, I mean, look, this is where like my team's always like, you're the worst salesperson. I mean, look, there's responders and non-responders to everything. And I think what you owe, what you

look for in science is, you know, what could work today, where we are today from a scientific perspective, um, before of course areas in the future where there'll be a lot more personalization, but you know, what, what could work across the greatest, across a heterogeneous population at the greatest, with the, with the greatest number of responders. And of course there's always non, I mean, look, there's people who die of Tylenol every year, right? Like there are things that there are non-responders too. But for the most part, I think we feel really confident that the impact that DSO1 has had, and we're going to be launching our pediatric product soon too, which has a similar rationale and similar approach to it. It's also a symbiotic.

We just finished up a really interesting clinical trial there that we'll be publishing also. You know, I think it's just very rewarding to hear what you just said, but, you know, obviously we get it every day through our care channels and other channels. And that is, of course, you know, what gets lost a little bit when you talk about science is just like the human part of this, which is, and you probably hear it all the time from your community around food, which is just that, you know, when you find something that works, whether it's a specific diet or a specific product, it can really change your life because, you know, your body is such a big part of how you live and operate and do the things you want to do every day. And of course, digestion is something that too many, particularly people in Western culture, just really suffer from everything from mild bloating all the way to

like full-blown IBS and GI conditions that really just like disrupt their lives. And so it's very exciting and rewarding for us to do what we do. Yeah, that's amazing. Can I ask you, what is a symbiotic? You've brought that up a couple of times. Oh, sure. So symbiotic is really, there's a couple of really formal definitions that were, um, drafted by ISAP, which is the international society, um, scientific association of prebiotics and probiotics. Um, and there's a couple of different kinds.

I mean, essentially the most simple way to understand a symbiotic is if it's a probiotic and a prebiotic together. But there's a couple different kinds. There's complementary, which just means that they're included together. But when they go into the host, they behave a bit differently than what you would call a synergistic symbiotic, which means that the prebiotic that's included is selectively being used by the organisms that are actually in the probiotic formulation. And so they both work just in different ways. And so there's a couple of different kinds, but essentially symbiotic is purely the combination of a probiotic and a prebiotic together. Okay. Interesting. So I heard this recently,

that the majority of the probiotics that we have on the market available to people are just a couple of strains that kind of everyone uses. And we're still trying to figure out, and please correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm still trying to understand this, but we're still trying to understand what exactly the strains are that we need that really support our health. Is that true? I mean, it's look, it's, and I'm always weary to say anything that's like so reductive, right? Because there's just, there, there are, are you talking about companies from Europe? There's, there's 24 strain formulations that I could walk down the street to Whole Foods and look at, you know, and find right now. You are right that many of, there's a lot of redundancy in the formulations that are used currently. I would say, and let's just say in the US probiotic

market. Yeah. I would not say it's just one or two. I think at this point it's more. I would say there's more variability in the fact that they're not used probably in the right dosages, nor do they have any delivery system, nor are they necessarily tested with kind of rigor. And a lot of them are made by the exact same contract manufacturers that are licensing out to the same people. And certainly I think I would say a lot of those companies are not doing their work to also discover and identify new strains or new mechanisms of action. But I would say that there are some companies that have put together some really interesting formulations that have been well studied and well characterized, even in some of their own clinical research. And that is more than one or two. But from like a very mass perspective, if you're talking about oral supplementation, yes, I wouldn't say that the landscape is like full of innovation. Yeah. But I would say that, you know, some of them, again, have been those are those are the strains that have probably been around the longest that have the most efficacy in things like antibiotic associated diarrhea, some basic digestive endpoints and outcomes, which is really where the field started, which is why now there's probably like 10 plus years of research on some of those, you know, and and then, of course, you know what what we, there's also the whole world of like, well, what you don't know and, or somebody attributes a benefit

in their, in their, uh, body or, um, a health outcome to taking it, but they also change their diet on the same day. And so there's of course that variability too, but yeah, I mean, it's, look, it's not, it's not a field that is, has, has been a, uh, it's, it's been much more a field of more opportunism. And then, of course, the strains that are used in things like kombuchas and kimchi and fermented foods are foods that are very good at lactic acid fermentation. But very few of them are controlled for dose as well as, you know, are necessarily the strains that were then used to see an endpoint in a host yeah i'm going back to our initial definition so they're very good at fermentation and they're selected for that um now the metabolites or what comes out of lactate acid

fermentation could be very beneficial for you so like i'm not saying you know i wouldn't say don't eat kimchi or i wouldn't say don't drink kombucha, particularly if you can find ones that to it too. And of course, when scaled up and sugar and made more affordable and, you know, mass produced, of course, you get a lot of corner cutting and other stuff so that it's really hard to say. You'd have to look at each product kind of individually to know when you kind of get out of the oral supplementation world. But yeah, it is hard to look at. It would be very easy for me to say like, oh yeah, they all suck. Ours is the only one. You know, there's a lot of people working hard to think about the future of the field. I would

say maybe not as much in the US, but certainly in places like Europe and places like Japan as well, where there's really interesting research. And then to your question about just like, should you be taking this for your overall health? I just go back to the definition, which is like, well, what for what? It's like, you wouldn't stand in CVS and like, take, you know, pep, you know, pepcid for headache. So like, what, what are you, what are you overall looking for? And if it's in general, like just generally improved digestion, you know, I do think there's strains that have been studied that really, even in an otherwise healthy person could, you know, offer digestive benefits that what we hear a lot from people who are very generally

healthy and didn't really were like more skeptics is, wow, I didn't, I thought I was pretty healthy and everything was going okay. And I didn't realize like my digestion could feel like this, or I didn't realize like my poop could be this good, this great. Or I didn't realize that I actually felt a little bloated after I ate. Now I feel great, you know? So, so, you know, you, you hear anecdotally a lot of different things, which makes sense when you go back and look at the, the end points and what a strain's been studied for. But I would say overall, like, you know, you wouldn't take a strain that's been studied to dampen the inflammatory response on the gut-skin axis for pooping better. Yeah. So I think it just depends on what you're really,

what the outcome you're looking for. Yeah. So it sounds like people need to do a little bit of research if there's something specific that they're trying to target, that they need to just research the strains that show improvement in those areas. Exactly. And look like anything else, and you probably see this with diet all the time. Um, sometimes particularly for yourself and for your own body and depending all the other factors, all the other lifestyle factors that we talked about, um, you know, exercise, hydration, I mean, you know, all these things, I mean, sometimes it is just a matter of experimentation and figuring out what works best for you. Absolutely. You know, you can't, there's, there's, that is of course the greatest challenge in human health is that we

have our own experience, our own genomes, our own life, lifestyles, or, you know, so many other factors that, um, uh, that have an impact on whether or not something quote unquote works. Yeah, absolutely. And I'm so glad that you brought that up because I talk about that a lot. I'm like, everyone ultimately needs to figure out what works best for them, you know, and it's trial and error. Absolutely. And look, science, you can look, of course, like I think there's certain companies like ours that look, want to first understand something from a scientific perspective before it's represented um and we think that there's a lot of rationale for particularly when you can demonstrate again something in a heterogeneous population meaning you can demonstrate that

something works across a really despite your starting microbiome despite all the people think people will tell you about personalization and gut poop testing and you need this and that, like, you know, we were really interested in like how these things work. Um, because I think when you can understand mechanism and then you can really test for specific end points, um, you can be really clear and at least have a lot of clarity that at least in a specific setting against placebo, you were able to demonstrate X, right? And that's really important for us. But for a lot of people, they're just happy to just say, well, I'm just going to try all this different stuff. And that's, you know, look for someone's individual life. That's sometimes a really viable protocol to figuring

out what helps them. And, you know, I'm sure you deal with this all the time, which is that particularly in the autoimmune communities and people who are really suffering, you know, you'll kind of just try anything because, because quality of life is so compromised. And I, and look as, even though we're a science company, we have a tremendous amount of empathy for that because you really, and I think the microbiome ends up being a place that a lot of people discover closer to the end of their journey sometimes um or or they are like oh my god it was my gut you know it was my gut and all i had to do was this this and this and so you know i i think um it it it's so complex but also it does that I don't want that to be heard as, and that means

every single thing needs to be personalized because that's not, that's the other extreme of it. Um, there are many things that work, you know, across large, large populations. And I think, um, it is just finding about what is that plus diet and other, of course, so many of the other factors that we talked about. Yeah. So is there anything else that we haven't covered about probiotics or gut health or anything that you think is really important that people know? I mean, I think, um, I think just going back to when you asked me about other things that are important that could impact our microbiome, I think we didn't really talk that much about alcohol and stress. Um, but I think that, you know, I can definitely tell you that like, you know, something like alcohol, like directly affects, you know, the integrity of our intestinal barrier,

um, and can lead to all kinds of increased permeability, which I'm sure you, you've talked about in your terms of leaky gut. Um, but it also can lead to a lot of, you know, dysbiosis in the gut, um, and a lot of, uh, pro-inflammatory markers. And so I would say just, you know, I don't think a lot of people think about alcohol in the microbiome as much. And so I would say that that's one that if you needed another reason to not drink as much, that's probably a really good one.

I'd say stress. Stress can actually, like actually within, they've done like really interesting, there was a study a long time ago and don't quote me on the actual protocol, Stress can actually, like actually within, they've done like really interesting, there was a study a long time ago and don't quote me on the actual protocol, but I remember that they studied the microbiome of people in crowded elevators and you could see even in a crowded elevator, the microbiome respond, which was kind of fascinating. But stress does induce changes and, you know, everything from neuroendocrine signaling and

certainly it can alter like even just GI motility. Like you can see when you're stressed, like you have harder time pooping. So absolutely. I think the impact on stress hormones and certainly just the understanding that like stress doesn't just impact your human parts, but it actually impacts, uh, your microbial, uh, parts too, which I think is important. Sleep, um, your microbiome has its own circadian rhythm actually, uh, which is kind of fascinating. Um, and, uh, and, and very much really needs that, that time, um, to both manage stress levels, but also, uh, to, to, to find, you know, one of the things about an ecosystem and microbes is that they're always trying to get back to homeostasis. you know, one of the things about an ecosystem and microbes is that they're always trying to get back to homeostasis. You know, they're trying to kind of stay in that balance.

And so sleep is not, again, not that you need another, if you just, not that you, that's a new idea, but if you needed another reason why your sleep is important, it actually is important for your gut microbiomes. And then a couple, you know, fun ones or one fun one is pets which is that having a dog for example increases your microbial diversity um so you know and they and i would say lastly just time in nature which um also has been shown to increase your microbial diversity there's other neuroscientific reasons for being in nature and being outside and sunlight and you know all kinds of other um rationale for that. But from a microbial perspective, uh, having a pet is a good thing. Um, you know, because you're,

you're basically just like exposing yourself to these new microbes and training your immune system and it creates kind of more resilience, which is great. Uh, and then obviously the being outside kind of has a similar, similar impact. Yeah. I mean, that's great. Cause I was actually going to be, my last question is how to, how do you create a more healthy, diverse microbiome, which you just answered beautifully. I would, I would say yes, other than, but I would say all of those. And if I could put like a large number one, it would be, it would be diet and nutrition and yeah um and nutrition and really diversity of plants and um a lot of the other things that we spoke about for sure yeah because that really is

i mean the the american gut project which is one of the largest like citizen science projects done in human microbiome demonstrated that you know the diversity of plants and even in a given week correlated with, um, an increase in diversity in your gut microbiome. And so, um, I kind of can't underscore enough, like the impact of, of food. Yeah. Food is a really important one. And, and, you know, kind of the foundation of all of my conversations on this podcast. What do you think about sugar with a microbiome? I mean, you know, look, it depends what, I mean, not all sugar is equal. Yeah. I think, you know, of course a lot of, particularly in fruits. I mean, I would say for the most part from a, from a microbial perspective, usually the guidance is to be low in sugar preservatives and, you know, processed foods and additives in general,

which is probably again, nothing new that anyone in your community has not heard. As I did say before, though, there are some sugar replacements that are bad for the microbiome too. So just to be mindful of those, but for the most part, like I think, you know, like blueberries and dark berries and these things that are highly, you know, polyphenolic berries all the way to, of course, some of the more dense nutrient dense fruits that of course have sugar, but you're consuming it with fiber. So it is very different than saying like eating candy. But yes, for the most part, like I think from a microbiome perspective, the guidance would be exactly the same as probably people who are eating and aspiring to more healthy lifestyles in general, which is keep as low as possible and refined sugar and processed foods.

Yeah. Well, before we wrap up, I want to ask you a question that I ask everyone on my podcast. What are some of your health non-negotiables? These are things that you do to prioritize your own health. They can be lifestyle, diet, whatever it is, things that are really important to you that you make sure you always do either on a weekly or a daily basis. This line are so boring. They're so big. They're so basic. I wish I had like some great, you know, biohacker example for you. I mean, the, the, the first is, I think, and I know this sounds really silly, but people don't talk about it enough, is like water intake. Yeah. It's important. I think hydration is something that is like, it's kind of overlooked and actually pretty important. And it has impact on like all the things, you know, a lot of the GI

health, of course, a lot of other areas. I think sleep, you know, is something that I'm always aspiring to be better at, but is something that I've like really, I mean, really, really prioritized. I had a rough first few years with my son sleep wise, and I really understood, you know, I mean, I understood the science even before that, but you know, when you live through like chronic disrupted sleep, like you really start to understand like even just the cognitive stuff that comes up and and i really um it really was like a wake-up call of like how incredibly important sleep is um and plants i mean those are i mean it's again i'm it's so boring it's important i think plants are extraordinary like sometimes you know i'm like one of those

like in some of those movies where the 13 year old gets like really smoked weed and like looks at like a, a, a vegetable up close. He's like, this is the most amazing thing you've ever seen. But like, I really, I think plants are, I think plants are extraordinary. Plants, nuts and seeds are like, if you, and when you start to understand the biology of them and how they evolved and what they do in our bodies. I think there's just like there, if you can appreciate them, I think that it also creates a different relationship to them than like what we grew up with, which is like eat your vegetable, you know, which is like,

so that you can get dessert. But I think if you can start to look at them as like kind of what the extraordinary things they are, I think that, um, I think that, that those three things end up, of course, being like a really important part of my life. And also, you know, I think a lot of the things that are fancier that I've tried are harder to stick to, um, because they're not so simple. And so I think sometimes simplicity is really, really important, but those three things and exercise are non-negotiables for me. Like you moving your body and like I cross train and I do yoga, but, um, but I, uh, I think, I think moving your body and, um, both for cognitive function, um, and of course all the other regions and even for your microbiome is like, those things are like, are

kind of non-negotiables for me on like a weekly basis. You know, of course I try other cool things and I read science all the time. I'm always like curious, but for the most part, those are, um, you know, and, and obviously outside of that, just, you know, whether it's meditation or just like some space and time, particularly away from my phone, um, is something that like, I just think for clarity and general, like presence is really important, but for the most part, like that's, um, those are the big ones. Amazing. So for everyone listening, where can they find you and where can they find Seed? Sure. You can find Seed at seed.com. Uh, if you want to see our, um, our, our, the DSO1 and, um, consumer products that I mentioned, if you want to see all of our research areas, you can go to seedhealth.com. And if you want to see and learn with us every day, one of the things we love to do is translate

science and make it kind of cool and accessible and kind of fun and hopefully not trigger anyone's sixth grade biology PTSD, which is at seed on Instagram, which is you can kind of come learn with us every day. And I'm at Eric hats on Instagram. Amazing. Thank you so much. I learned so much in this interview. I really enjoyed it. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for your great questions. Thank you. If you liked this episode, please leave a review in your podcast app to let me know. This is a resident media production produced by Drake Peterson and edited by Chris McCone. The theme song is called Heaven by the amazing singer Georgie, spelled with a J. Love you guys so much. See you next week. The content of this show is for educational and informational purposes only. It is not a substitute for individual medical and mental health advice

and doesn't constitute a provider patient relationship. I am a nutritionist, but I am not your nutritionist. As always, talk to your doctor or your health team first. Thank you.