Sara & Cariad's Weirdos Book Club - A Complicated Woman by Rebecca Lucy Taylor aka Self Esteem

Episode Date: October 30, 2025

This week's book guest is A Complicated Woman by Rebecca Lucy Taylor aka Self Esteem.Sara and Cariad are joined by Rebecca Lucy Taylor aka award-winning singer Self Esteem to discuss her debut book.In this episode they discuss creativity, surviving capitalism, success, burnout and Blackadder.Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you!Trigger warning: In this episode we discuss fertility.A Complicated Woman by Rebecca Lucy Taylor aka Self Esteem is available here.Follow Sara & Cariad’s Weirdos Book Club on Instagram @saraandcariadsweirdosbookclub and Twitter @weirdosbookclubTickets for Sara's tour show I Am A Strange Gloop are available to buy from sarapascoe.co.ukCariad's children's book Lydia Marmalade and the Christmas Wish is out in paperback here now. Recorded and edited by Naomi Parnell for Plosive.Artwork by Welcome Studio.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sarah Pasco, and I'm Carriad Lloyd. And we're weird about books. We love to read. We read too much. We talk too much. About the too much that we've read. Which is why we created the weirdos book club. A space for the lonely outsider to feel accepted and appreciated.

Each week we're joined by amazing comedian guests and writer guests to discuss some wonderfully and crudely weird books, writing, reading and just generally being a weirdo. You don't even need to have read the books to join in. It will be a really interesting, wide-ranging. conversation and maybe you'll want to read the book afterwards. We will share all the upcoming books we're going to be discussing on our Instagram, Sarah and Carriads, Weirdo's Book Club. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you. This week's book guest is A Complicated Woman by Rebecca Lucy Taylor. What's it about? It's a kind of deconstructed autobiography where the gaps resonate as much as the text. What qualifies it for the Weirdo's Book Club? Well,

she mentions Alanis Morissette and that was enough for us. In this episode, we're We discuss creativity, surviving capitalism, success, burnout and blackadder. And joining us this week is Rebecca Lucy Taylor herself, aka self-esteem. She is an award-winning musician, songwriter, pop star, all-round legend, and this is her first book. Welcome to the show. Thank you. Do we call you Rebecca or self-esteem? Rebecca, please. Rebecca. Do we say Rebecca Lucy Taylor or just Rebecca?

Well, it depends on what you want. Yeah. Welcome to the show, Rebecca Lucy Taylor. Thank you. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me. It's lovely. Very exciting. I'd like to just do this anyway. I like you as people. We have something in common.

Blonde hair. None of us got into drama school. Yes. And it didn't hold us back. No, look at us now. Look at us now. We can inspire people. We have another thing.

Oh, which I was in the book. I was like, look. But it's a bit different. But we went to Sussex University and you didn't. Oh my God. Our roads parked. That's what we met. Oh my God.

What did you do? English literature. I was going to do English lit and film. Of course. You'd have been my crowd. What year there? We'd have been a very dweeby crowd. I think we would have disappointed you.

What year were you? Maybe I would have snubbed you and then ultimately found you. Yeah, you would have quite snubberable at first. You would have said hello to us privately, especially if you joined drama club with us. But then when we saw you out at the honey club, you'd have just pretended. I'd say if she wouldn't have been at the honey club. I'm not as cool as you think there's no way else to go. Concord. Do you think Concord

too? And I want to publicly thank them for letting me defer for quite a few years. Did you keep defer it? Yeah. Because I got the top 5% not me saying this again on a podcast. I said this in every day on every podcast. Top 5% for media studies that year.

Wow. Absolutely. Why would you stop saying that? Well, apparently I don't. Why would you ever stop? It's still one of my biggest see you later. And as we commemorate, Rebecca, I think we can all remember. Have it on your tombstone.

Don't have any. She got the top five percent. Don't mention the Brit Award. Don't mention the Mercury. I did go on them either. But, yeah. It's true. It's still.

That and I was really desperately terrible at maths. And so I was in that lower set. But I managed to get a beat, which was like getting an A star for like in the group I was in. So they're my two greatest achievements. Thank you. Thank you. I think they're the kind of confidences you need early on in your career. Yeah.

So that later on, especially if you're going to something, where you get lots of nose and rejections, you go, no, I am worth something. I'm in the top 5% for media studies. My Donny Darko, I say banged, sorry, come on. The fact that you said your dad put in the book, your brilliant book, you say your dad pulled the car over and said, like, don't go. And I was like, for your dad to believe in you like that, I was like, oh, that's significant that he was like, give it a shot.

It was mad, still. I mean, he's such an un-emotional man. Nothing's dramatic ever, which is why I struggled. And yeah, he was like, don't. And he was so right, you know. Yeah, because I was thinking, I was like, God, imagine if you'd gone. And you'd just constantly be thinking, what if, what if, what if, what if I'd given it a go. Even if you got your degree and done, like, every job, you'd be like, oh, there was a door I didn't open.

Like, thank God that he did that for you. It's amazing. It's amazing. Yeah. It really is. Bless him. But he must have known that that was so important to you that, like. I've never spoke to him actually about it since because you just don't. But he loved music.

Like my dad's still, he'll buy CDs and reads the whole, you know, pamphlets. He's the last man caring about that bit. And so that's why I do. I think it's like early on you want, I just could tell that was a way to bomb with my dad. And I tried through cricket and I end football and stuff. But me, singing and dancing was a bit easier. And yeah, I think he just, I don't know. Really good question.

Let's have him on. Let's call him. Yeah, yeah. My dad, so it was always. After Sussex, I was going to do, you can do a year course to become a teacher because I thought it would be so sensible. I looked into being a supply teacher and it's like £130 a day. It was so much money.

Yeah. So much money. And I remember thinking, then I could do that in between auditions and da-da-da-da. And my dad, who's a jazz musician, just said, never have a backup. He said, no one with a backup ever. He's like, make it work or start after death. And it's such good advice. He was more emotional about it than your dad.

Making work or stop today? But my mum, because then my parents aren't together, obviously, but she was so furious. Of course, you'd be like, that's not an parent to advice. Why would you say that to a young person who has no way of earning a living? And my dad had no money, so it's not like he could lend me any money when I was like pursuing my dreams. But actually it's good to someone to have like even put that as an idea in your head,

don't have a backup when the whole world is going back up first. I'm still trying to find a backup, but that's such a good point. And you do need that hunger and desperation to like get there. But also he was in a band when I met my mom. you know you get married you have to have kids you got a normal job

and the rest is history so I think there was a bit of like do it for me but he didn't say that I just said you should go well it's good because he said it gave it to you without the pressure of

you're doing this for both of us no I didn't even register at the time but I thought I still this is really on my mind at the minute as well like he still was my dad like he's like my peer now

when your parents start to be like on a level with you but he I've always responded well to someone telling me what to do, believe it or not because it's always me trying to figure it out. It's a relief. That's why you want to be an actor, Rebecca. Is it?

Yeah. Because it's so great to have literally someone telling you what to say in another, usually, man, going stand over there and say it like this. Yeah, I can't wait. What a relief. Yeah. I'm really struck. Sorry, we're not talking.

We're off the piece already. This is how the podcast works. Because I'm 39 next month. And I'm like, is this around the time where you start to go oh no one's in charge and oh god it's you and where's mummy you know and i'm looking for it in my manager and i look for it in my relationships and i'm like no it's you it's horrible feeling but i think you just realize you you get more self-aware of like where you've put it like you said a manager or a friend or so and you're like oh yeah i'm still looking for it and and the people

haven't done it like no one but you only get that point by trying by doing that mistake is what i mean you can't learn that mistake you you do it and then you're like oh i see they're not my parent they're not going to fix it it's me but at that time when my dad pulled that car over he was still a parent and they never really told me what to do or anything so it did hear i was like all right that felt i was confident enough then to make that decision which thank god i did i mean so with your book it's really odd to me that you mentioned donnie darko because that's what i kept thinking of in your book because of the non-sequential order and i thought i could do you know what they did after donnie darko when they put it in order i put it in day order and i was trying to work

when the earliest note was, and I think it's 2016, am I wrong? That would make sense if it's there, I think so. Because I think the earliest ones, the beginning of the book is like, I'm nude and in a mood, and it's like, that's when you're born. This is way better than that. But this is where people do PhDs about your book. This is what they'll be saying. This is my PhD about your book.

Yeah, thank you. I'm really enjoying it. It would be like a complicated woman, or Donnie Darko, you decide. That's so, yeah, that tracks. It really does. How would you describe the book? What would you, because Sarah saying it's sort of collection of notes and other things. Yeah, I've sort of been saying experimental poetry prose mashup.

Mashup's never a good thing to say. Deinstruction, fusion, fusion, deep instruction, yeah. In light, I think, you know, I set out to write our normal book, but basically I threw loads of shitter to war for so long. Then one song came out that everyone was like going out. about and then everyone who'd ever like not commission you know not put the play on I'd written or not put me in the thing or not giving me the book deal or whatever every it was then everyone was like here you go and I had I stopped and thought well like this is amazing this is amazing but also like I don't want to be like you know when like some pops I was going movies and they shouldn't

yeah yeah yeah I suddenly thought like you could really if that play wasn't good enough before that song it's on six music loads don't put it on now and the same with the book I was I was like, yes, take, you know, I'll sign a book deal and here we go. But then it, and then it's cold reality of like, takes years and loads of work to be good at it. And it's not that I'm like a perfectionist. I just don't want to be taking the piss. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah.

It took ages. Like, I announced this book and it like, we're like four years later than the book. But I think that's, it's partly probably being a perfectionist, but I think also it's having a respect for things. Yeah. Yeah. You know what a good thing is And so it's not a nice feeling To produce something that's permanent

And then feel that isn't as good as it should Or would have been And books are supposed to take time And also you're busy You're saying it like oh you know I was like I was doing things else It's like you were touring the pop star My life did like explode as well

And I kept being like I had this Honestly that That picture of What's he called I love actually by the in his by the late Right in his book Oh yeah Converse

I was like, that's me now. Like, brilliant. Like, no more me on a tour bus, like, feeling like shit. Like, I'm by a lake right in my book. And that moment never came. So it was sporadic and sort of all over the place. And the book sort of represents that. But I don't want to be one of those people that's like,

it's just like the songs, but it doesn't have to rhyme. Like, but at its source, it was like, oh, a longer way to say what I'm on about all the time anyway. But there's still so much space around so many of the segments. That's what I really like about your structure. Which is why I will not allow the phrase mash-up. Thank you. It's a construction. There it is.

I follow you on social media and you're brilliant with words and you're brilliant with words where you enable things to be sort of like very, very sad and aching, but joyful and funny at the same time. And so what's so nice is the space in between some of those segments means that there is a whole narrative that my brain creates. Actually, so much of it made me want to talk back. And I was like, thank God she's coming on the podcast. because so many of your fans or readers will be just reading it and that will be coming up and they'll have to speak to other people

or I guess side into your DMs. Oh, I've got a story. Do their own post and just tag you in it then you look at it if you want to. Yeah, yeah. In my darkest hour, so I will log in. True Crime Podcasts and imagining your own disappearance. Yes, yes. It made me think of you when I said it really good.

It made me think of me as well. Like how you would be disappeared and why can't. Why? Because I do not listen to anything like that because it scares the shit out. Yeah, yeah. And we had a conversation once with Sarah. I was like, that's why I listened because it scares me. And I was like, I don't understand.

Like, I'm a run away from it. Don't look at it. But I get that some women have a thing of like, no, no, read everything about it, so you're prepared. But it's also just the most compelling story. And I think that's the point that you make is there is no more interesting story than where is that woman and what happened to her. Oh, I would disagree. And it's where is that elf and how is he going to get that ring? and that's me

this was why you wouldn't have been friends with us at sausage no it is not genuinely we get the rings on weekly if we can't find something to what I should tell him should we just get ring in honestly I'm a big ringhead I am yeah I promise you

okay okay but yeah to me it's too scary right at the beginning there's this you're imagining you've been to the cinema to see parasite and it's the day after it's been nominated for an Oscar. That was so funny. You're like, I'm not going to see it because it's been nominated for an Oscar. I was going to go anyway.

But your derision at yourself is so funny because you're writing this book, you know, your mid-30s, it's the day after at one an Oscar. Imagine a woman reading that in her mid-40s, then thinking, I'd like to see the film Parasides. It sounds quite a good film. Several years after it's won an Oscar. I think that's how far I have to have that when I disappear, that she hasn't even seen Paraside.

she's a waste of her last movement she got a deliver room from Gales for four coffees and actually she's in her bedroom guys she got to sleep holding my phone that's where she is we don't need to worry she didn't go out

she was on a different she was upstairs her phone just went out of battery that was all it was no one knows where she is oh she's charged it is fine yeah yeah it took a while to figure out

what to do because I was like well where is she then and then I thought I know exactly what she is and no one No one with the, you know, the hero's journey. No amount of researching what makes a good book. Co-signed off on that ending, but I did. Here we are.

But it feels like it's very you and it's very reflective of your music and the lyrics that you write and why people like what you do. Like I feel like the book is a perfect companion piece to the album. Well, it's great spotting some of the song lyrics in there. And it's like you've seen a famous person in the car. I love that. I know you. Oh, I'm so happy.

Or slightly different permutations of song lyrics as well. Be like, I know you. You're wearing a moustache. I know it's you. You can see where I was, well, smell what I stepped in there. And then when it made it to the, yeah, I like that. I get a kick out of that too. And you think, I think like that's what you're, not that's what why people write.

You don't write for an audience. But that is like sort of the deal you've made with that audience is like, this is who I am. This is the kind of thing I talk about. And so I think the book really. reflects that. That must have been like a nice feeling that you're able to deliver something that like you said rather than sitting down writing proper book inverted commas of like beginning middle end. That's not what this is. Yeah. It felt every time in any art I've ever made when it's like really hard, that's when it's not good. And I just had that realization with the book

as well and that's why I was taking so long because I just thought I've written all, there's so which I've written and Romilly at the publishing brazen was she's just amazing I was like helped me find what it is and the sort of gospels of the same thought processes across the years and which was like that like made it make sense to me and then then I had the boundary I needed and then I got on with it it was wonderful but um like the pop star thing I'm such a fan of pop culture and pop stars and so I've and that was on that was like the direction I wanted to go when I first left the band and stuff so I was like I want to be the biggest artist in the world I want to be you know untouchable rather and Beyonce let's go and then over the years obviously that's embarrassing

and like I'm more of the second I feel like I'm whenever I try to feel untouchable it's just mortifying and stupid and I hate it because that's that's why I've felt shitty my whole life is because the music industry makes you, they certainly like make sure the women make sure you feel like that kind of thing. So my idea has always been like you're in on it with me. And that makes me feel a lot better. And it's helped me back in music for sure. But I, but thank God I'm finding other places to do it and have that connection and find people that really love that. And rather that, you know, my whole music career right from 18 has been like, if only I was this, this and this things would be different and writing definitely doesn't have that there's no there's no you know

do a leap of blueprint that i need to like try try and have like it felt like it came from your heart and that's like that's what good art is right someone went into their heart and was like oh this is what i found and it felt very truthful and some of the lines you were dropping in when it was like oh go on a podcast and talk about sexual abuse in the music industry go on a podcast talk about being mental health and just the way that you're the way I feel like you're kind of lifting the curtain a little bit of like this is bullshit by the way this is bullshit being a woman in

an industry what's that like what's it like oh yeah well let me tell you yeah you got asked that the other day didn't you yeah like literally two weeks ago and I did the wrong response so are women in the interview was like so are women funny yeah and I was actually and I didn't want to shit on her because you never want to shit on the interviewer.

So I just told her how many of my friends were rich. So then I felt like, oh, I shallow answer. Like in capitalism to be like, actually, a lot of us have bought houses from jokes. So I think that's concluded. So who cares if we're funny or not? I think it's a good way to do with it. I actually they're funny.

Yeah. But still part of me is like, I would just love to have a funny answer that would answer. And then no one would ever be asked. But there isn't a funny answer. That's the thing. There isn't. Other than no, they're not.

I hate it. Shut them up. There's a quote on the cover from Dolly. older than him, which is really kind. Ask Joe Lyser basically to do a quote that was like, another woman complaining. I'm sick of it. Awful.

But it didn't get put on because it was like, they worried it would make it all a bit too funny, but I was like, it's perfect. It is perfect. Also, people would know that Joe wasn't serious. No, no, but it's so sets up what the book is saying, really. I can't talk like I talk without going, sorry, I'm complaining.

Like I still have, still not kicked that. I thought about Dolly Alderton reading your book as well because she is so good at having friends and I don't know what kind of witchcraft and magic that is and you are as well. No, I'm not. But you have lots of friends. You mentioned several of them.

But she does also mention lots of not replying. Yeah. Yeah, but everyone still likes you. But also more than one person as a friend. No one messages me. I've got four updates. They're all from Vinted. And that's from the net.

no it's shifted now but also I don't blame people I this is a truly like I talk about it in the book and that you know some of the book is years ago so it's not a new thing it's not like a now I'm really busy thing it's just like I really can't

and I still haven't figured it out I've spent a lot of money talking to someone all the time and weekly who has to listen to me that's why I bear it can't figure it out It's like I, it's the panic, the anxiety, unless I can sort of serve back what they'd like. And these are like people, normal, nice people that aren't really asking for anything. And it's still work, isn't it?

It's weird. I'd love to figure it. I'd love to be someone who doesn't find it all so hard. But then, like, when I did cabaret and you sort of get there day one. And I'm brilliant and met having friends on the job. But because my job's so solo. So whenever I'm in, those like jokes you get when you're forced to be somewhere. And so, you know, I ended up with a really organic, lovely friendship come out of Cabaret that has never been a fear-based thing.

It's like, I don't know what it is. I don't know what it is. The friends I mention in it are, you know, there's the three or four people that are, there's this constant, just, you know, bowel movement chat. And that, I'm good at that. But I think having four of those is a real achievement. That's what I'm trying to say. I do. I've got Carriads and I've almost loser on a monthly basis.

I do get a lot of like, you know, I don't feel like you're being there for me sort of stuff. And I'm like, oh, I am. But I'm also on podcast talking about mental health and music industries all the time. And I do crave this life where I, you know, have dinner parties and things. But I don't know how much I actually want. I think you have to be honest about like the kind of friend you want to be. And I think I think some people want different friendships.

That's the thing. And I think it starts like as you get always. or I think it's trying to value different friendships. Like some people aren't a constant texter and they aren't a like, hey! Or they're not people who turn up for birthday parties, but they have like different skills. Exactly.

And I think you have to get a bit more, it sounds a bit calculated, but a bit more like, well, this person does this. And I do need a constant texter. So that's my constant texter. And this is my voice noter, and this is it. And I think then you have to accept people can't be everything. I love it.

I tell you why I love. And they don't get enough of shout-up. Flakes, flaky people. You love a flake. I love a friend. I promise to flake on you forever. Thank you. Because you're a flake.

Make an arrangement. They cancelled on the day and you go, bang. We'll never see each other ever again. I love you. Same. But that's because game meets game for you. Yeah, I didn't love that. Did you ever have, when I was like, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 times,

I wanted to be at everything and anything. The phone rang I couldn't wait. I was like, why? When did I lose that? out. And my teeth, straight away, I got worse and worse. And then the pandemic really made me shy and love being alone. But I know what mine is. I'm only comfortable with a group of people if they're all looking at me. So I can't bear being in the audience or pub, restaurant, unbearable. Go to theatre. Go to theatre. We can't go to theatre. We can see you in Cabaret, by the way.

That's the other thing we can start with this podcast about. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're amazing. Oh, thank you so much. Oh, time of my life. And that's how I knew you hadn't gone to drama schools because when you posted about it. I was like, can't finish that sentence. I saw you in Cabaret and I knew that time it you got to dance. That's an untrained diaphragm right now.

I was like, where you go? I mean, some people did. I have that opinion, but I really loved Cabaret and I was so upset they didn't let me on stage to dance with everyone. Because it's almost so inclusive because I'm watching everyone have a nice time. When is it going to be the audience's chance? Where were you?

They usually find the famous. Because you don't know when like famous people are in and then that like Sally comes up through the middle and often like those there's two boxes that are like kind of the worst seats in the house but sometimes they'd be like

mega famous in there but you don't know until you're up and that once I popped up and Marina Abramovich was there who was like my reason for being and I was just like what worst performers I did

like overthinking it tried really hard awful she didn't want to come back stage fine she would never want to be a friend is the thing that's the difficulty. Do you know what girls as well? Can I just say, she's a flake. Come on.

She's not going to meet you for coffee. She'd be in a glass box. Yeah. That's what you guys are like that. She never could be able to come. She's sitting down waiting for you to arrive. Yeah. She's meeting all of her ex-lovers and make a knife her. Yeah.

We have another thing in common, the three of us that we need to talk about. I keep thinking you're saying a man's name. There is. It's going to be in it. Guys, it's me. No. I did this deal that I went in for an audition. and he was like, we've got a friend in coming, and I'm nervous.

I went, oh, is it someone I've had sex with? And he was, and he was like, ah. And I was like, ah, why would he bring it up in the audition then? Okay, you can just relax. The three of us, it's never going to be there. Okay. You do Alanis Morissette karaoke. Oh, yes, yes.

Do you? One of our best nights, which we never recrated, is we went with our other friend, Vanessa, from Salsix Uni, and we went into the booth in Soho. This is a long time ago. We screamed it, though. We just sang. It wasn't singing, it was screaming.

And it was like, we've never done it before. And it was like, I think you suggested it. You're like, let's go and do karaoke. I was heartbroken. We were all a bit fucked. And it was like one of the best therapy sessions. Like 10 years worth of therapy in one night. Yeah.

And you were talking about it in your book. And I was like, we've done. It's like, she, I listened to drag a little pill. Like when I was way too young. And all, because our weekends when my dad and brother would play cricket and I would, me and me and my mom would sit there. and I had a Walkman and it was Jagged Little Pill and Fuji is the score.

Oh yeah. Not like 11 year olds to this exists but that's all I listen to it over and over again and I would walk around the perimeter of the cricket pitch because my mum wouldn't let me go out of sight as well by the way and that's all that. And then years and years later obviously I realize like prioritise pleasure especially I was like

oh that's just what she's on about in Jack a Little Pilly that was like it just stayed in me. Llan has told me at 11 years old what to be careful for And yet, and low, here we are. A lot of the lyrics, you can't understand at that age, and I was older than you, but there's the thing about the cross-eyed bear, I know, but I thought she was giving someone a cross-eyed bear.

I visualised it as, you know, just cute. Yeah, I honestly, we used to stop the tape. No, it was a CD, I'm not, yeah, it was a CD, I would to pause it when you could, and wrote him all down phonetically. I wish I could find that. I wish that existed. My phonetic, my full phonetic,

ball of tagging little bell. Because it probably says cross-eyed. Someone who's opened veins like that through her music and enabled other people who can't make music to be able to, you know, rewind that feeling and play someone else's again. I'm not alone, like, not the only one who feels like this.

I had very similar experience with your album, Prioritized Pleasure. I was five weeks postpartum and I'd just done my first gig again, which was just trying to remember who I was. And I wouldn't take my coat off because I was so fat. And I didn't have any material. kept telling them what I was singing to the baby while I changed just nappy, which was essentially putting the word bum bum into songs that already existed.

And on the way home, I was like, I have to remember what it is to feel to be alive. So I listened to prioritise pleasure. And then for weeks and weeks postpartum, I kept listening to you going, see, that's a life. That's someone with a life having feelings that isn't about bum bums. Oh, that makes me so happy. I love it so much. And when I like an album, you know, because your album is a bit like,

I'd say, like jagged little pill or neutral milk hotel where they're like books. that so much is inside it, it isn't just, oh, here's a tune, and this word's repeated a few times, you're properly laying things out. Thank you. It's so rare for you to talk about music like this. I never talk about music. I just say I don't like it, and then that's the end of the pastroo. No, it's not just take that.

It's take that. And then I stopped. I see why you like me then. Yeah. Yeah. But then that's all I listen to. All I've listened to for eight months is the song, Fantasy by Mariah Carey, but the Dirty Old Bastard version, because I love his rap and the crow.

of his voice so much. I don't need any other music. That, that responds to me. That's like me. I go to put music on and then I just put the same, I listen to his podcast, these drag queens and they're like, they just talk about shagging. Which podcast is that? It's called sloppy seconds. This is the only thing that comes to you down is like really in-depth anal sex descriptions. I just feel so much better. There was another great quote from the book, which I thought we'd all enjoy, which is, I want to be fucked like that, but not have to hear about your Edinburgh show. See, these are the ones I'm worried about getting the emails. No, it's perfect.

So many of them. It's perfect. But also, but some of us are married to comedians doing Edinburgh. It was fucking moment. So imagine your choices. Yeah. Imagine your choices then. I read it out loud and I just thought, oh God, there's so many women that would just be like, yes.

Thank you. I don't want to hear about your Edinburgh show. Dolly Alderton's novel, obviously, about a male comedian. Good material. Yes, also about dating a standout. I don't think you get trouble for that. It could be literally all of them. Well, that's the thing that you do get the legal thing back, don't you?

And you change things or you sort of make sure no one, nothing bad's going to happen. It's not really a memoir, but it has bits of memoir in it. And the two waivers I had to get, one was my first ever boyfriend, Sam, because I say that I lose my virginity to him. So I was like, hey, dude. Yeah. So. And then the other one was like a boyfriend I had that was just wonderful. And it was way before I had any, like, mental health help.

and he used to be like you need help and I'd be like no I don't you do and so I sort of apologise to him in the book and I say I'm really happy that you met a woman and he's really

he got married and I don't want to hear about your baby when you inevitably have it and then you went that he got a vasectomy that's so great so then and that so the second waiver was like I can't print that he's had a vasectomy

without his permission I was like hang out of it um yeah how are you how things going I was like, weird one. Well, we keep in touch.

It actually inspired a song because we keep in touch by talking about the new Perfume Genius records every year. Every year, there is one. So all we ever do is text about Perfume Genius. And I do love him to bits. He's amazing. But yeah, this time I was like, weird one. And they were both really lovely about it. Yeah.

I write songs and stuff to, because this is my cheesy one liner about it. But I don't talk honestly in real life. my parents never had conflict I'm terrified of it I'm absolutely appalling at it it's what makes my life difficult but in the songs obviously I can and I can make it sort of broad enough

that no one can really come and start and if they do I'm like how dare you question art you know it's quite toxic sort of the set up I've got but the book was like that times 10 and then when it came to like it coming out and this legal stuff

and I was like oh my God but you just got a not thinking about it in it? It's very, unfortunately, it is very similar to stand-up comedians. Yeah, that's so true. In terms of a repackaging of a thing to entertain other people and it is truth adjacent which is quite hurtful for the people who were the truth version because the public version is

it's not even like, oh, this is my version of events. It's like, no, this is the version of events that I mutated to make it more fun for people listening to it. How do you cope with that? Well, I'm probably going to quit. I'm probably going to quit in much because I've got children The idea of ever hurting them And it's like, I can't stop it

I just don't respect boundaries Everything's material And so there does come a point where you go I don't want to be talking about my Edinburgh show Like when they're trying to eat their breakfast So true I wonder what I'll do It's not yet but I do

I'm in a relationship that I don't want to I want to have a go at You know And he read Started reading the book and sort of had to stop And I was like Ah, okay. That's quite nice and healthy.

My husband, when we met, said he didn't want to be in the stand-up and it was really good for him to just go. It wasn't like, oh, check it with me. I did it. It was just like, you can't talk about our sex life. You can't, this is what I want to be private. And you've got so much history. I've got so much history stuff.

Yeah, true. I'm just laughing at you're like, so he said he didn't want me to talk about sex life. And then I was like, oh, right, okay. But obviously he didn't want you to talk about sex. I'll just talk about sex with other people. That's how we'll get around this. Nothing has ever been. private to me.

Same. Yeah. But sort of nameless enough to get away with it because of how terrified I am to actually say all my major, you know, any big dramas in my life, I just eject to see it out and you know and you don't seem to fit us. But then no one ever knows why I've gone, really, unless they want to get, you know, they want to pick what they can from, what I'm singing about, which I don't think is a very nice trait, right? But it's also how I've coped, you know. Whenever I fall for the clickbait where it would be like

look at this pop star singing about her ex-boyfriend and I'll click on it and I'll go these are such vague lyrics I wanted specificity I wanted how to describe his penis and how weird it was the closest we got

was that fucking scarf in the draw in it exactly what actual revenge here I do hide it a lot there's more than one thing at play a lot of songs aren't Roma you know early on I was putting

like how I felt about platonic things through a basic lens of, but yeah, I don't know what'll happen, because I've started to get more sensitive to the, as I'm becoming a better person, I'm more worried about, unless they've wronged me. That was, that's my price and pleasure was so fun, because I'd had such a shy relationship that I just had, there was no, the gloves were off, I didn't care how they felt. Yeah, yeah, and still don't.

And that's, that's what people recognise and that's what people respond to, isn't it? And that's like, what we're talking about Jagged Little Pill, you're like, so, she's like, I don't fucking care. Yeah, nothing is better for me than someone treating me a bit of shit and me getting out of it. I'm never in better shape. I'm never in better.

I don't drink much. I'm just like, I am Mr. Motivator. Like, I love it. I thrive. Now, the more about my life is sort of calm. The better I do get communicating and I try to be, you know, want to be a spiritual person.

There's less drama. But that's so interesting because that comes, we talk about this a lot of, like tortured artist of like we know that some of our... Not because we are because we read books. Oh yeah, no, no, no. Is it like, because we know

there's been times our life where we produce things because we've been in a desperate state of pain and so there is an understanding of like that pain caused me to go somewhere which made art that was good. But then how do you have a life? So you're not having to do that all the time.

You know, like or you meet someone who's important to you or you have kids or you're trying to make an environment at home that it feels safe. Can you still produce good art? Or healthy? Healthy. A healthy amount of production or life balance.

Yeah, I just think it's really because it should be possible and we've been sold this idea of a tortured artist which is a male 19th century, probably 18th century concept and that's come down through all these other men being like, you have to like write to your fingers bleed, you have to stay in the studio or like you said like Neil Young, treat it like a job. Or being drunk. Did you ever see, Gary Kimmings did a show called Seven Days Drunk a few years ago?

Did you ever see this show? So she got medically drunk every single day for seven days. Now, spoiler, she got really depressed. So she got really, really depressed. After day three, you shouldn't be drunk all the time. She was just drinking cranberry and vodka, and she was having her blood alcohol levels. That sounds great.

It was so interesting because she was like, all of the artists you like. She always makes such fascinating things. So every artist you like was a drinker, was an alcoholic. You know, Hemingway was drinking from 11, da, da, da, da, da, da, all these examples. And so her question to herself was. was am I better when I'm drunk. Yeah. And so at the end of every day,

she had like a showing, a sharing where she made the stuff, she showed the stuff she'd written and worked on that day. And at the end of the week, her audience had to do a questionnaire, and they all said it was the best things she's ever. Oh, my God.

So she was so depressed by day seven. She was just crying all the time. Her eyes were leaking. She's describing this thing where when she sort of came up, she'd realized, oh, I've been crying, but I didn't realize I was lying down. Ugh, I don't know. This is not news I needed to hear because I'm trying to drink one.

What was my point? But I guess my point was then everyone must forgive themselves why they make bad decisions if they're trying to be creative or if they are sad. I think sometimes it's like, of course you are.

That's just unfortunately the mass of this. And also they said it was the best thing she'd ever seen, but that's not including the work she then makes after that show. Yeah, that's so interesting. Like she has a show coming out now which all about climate change is,

yeah, which is on it. Soho, Walsh day. And she did a show about weightlifting, which was, yeah, completely brilliant and about lifting weights. Yeah, but it's a thing of like, If you are someone who's used, if you're someone who listened to Jagged Little Pill because it reached you from a deep place of like, somebody else feels my pain.

And then you spend your teenage and 20s being like, here's my agony. I'm putting it on stage or in music. And then you're trying to like sort your life. Like how do we then? But that's why I think it's important that people talk about this and do have settled relationships and carry on making art. Like that's what we need to them go, yeah, you can still make good art from a place of healthiness. It doesn't have to be obliterating all the time. Well, we'll see. I've got another

album to write. I love how you talk about fertility. And I love the post you did when you were talking on the bridge about egg freezing. And again, I think it's an example of how you share so much and it really helps other people, as well as being incredibly moving. If I could take anything away from humanity with a click of my fingers, it would be the amount of brain space taken up by a woman in her 30s, early 40s, trying to work out what's going to happen and not knowing a definite answer, and just the waste of that and how it actually doesn't even really affect the outcome. You talk about, like, with your, with egg freezing, so part of you should be really pleased because you might not have any if you hadn't done it. But then also quite harsh on yourself, if you had done something earlier, you would have more. Yeah, horrible.

And I only just got money, so that's the only just did it. And it's, I'm literally in the thick of that. I don't know what to do. I don't want to be someone that's like consumed by it. The way I cope before was to be like, it's stupid. Like, what a waste of, you know, your life to just be this thing. And then obviously I've got older and my actual, I've matured and I understand the world much more than like 28 year old me who was like jealous of people. Yeah, it's quite one of your own lines at you.

And I love this line. You have, like, everyone else is having babies and all you've had is fun. You know, there's a part of me that's worried that if I'm, if I did have a baby, am I going to, like, alienate a load of people that felt better from that lyric? But I... Do you remember what happened when Amanda Palmer got had of her first baby?

Do you remember this? Tell me. So Amanda Palmer, so she's always been someone who was really good at asking for money. So before Patreon, or maybe she was the very first person. She was the first one to do a Kickstarter album. It was her Kickstarter. When she announced her pregnancy, because you told me this, because she was upset.

Someone said... Is the, I play, I'm a member of your Kickstarter. Is your music going to get shit now? Oh my God. Oh my God. Yeah. And Amanda Palmer writing back to someone like, what a nasty thing to say to someone. But then that you, as in that that was all of her fears.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm scared, I'm scared. But I'm also like, this is why I'm excited about the book. I'm excited about, I'm three albums in now going like, what, what I'm doing is not trying to. it's a diary you know it's come and listen or read what sense I'm making of my being sentient now

at the moment and then we'll see you know my dementia album that'll be great my you know and it gives because also running along running alongside this like fear of whether or not I can have a baby is aging and like being

it really I tell this story so often but I saw that blur documentary and I was like, why do they look cool? Why does it feel like I can't get to that? Because Damon Albarn sort of is, that's the sort of career. I might have made loads of different things and everyone just go with me on it. And I just realise it's because you just don't see women over 30,

over around now in music, really. I mean, and you do, but like not much and there's a lot of help to not seem that age. I really can't. I struggle to name anyone. Yeah. And people go to me, oh, see, I broke through when she was 40-something. I'm like, but they did put a bag on her head. There's literally a performance where she's got our bag on her head.

Or the wig hit her collarbone. Yeah. So, and I... They made it a gimmick. It was another thing that I'd not even notice. Like, they're saying in the book a lot, like, I just didn't realize I was any different. And to, you know, these sort of posh men that I spent the majority of my time with, and I was like, it's a clock.

There was just this feeling that... And it's coincides with the baby because I've always, you know, I've been in bands with men whose wives or girlfriends have babies, but they still tour, they still get on with it. Their careers do not get impacted at all. And I felt like having a baby equals no career or having a career equals no baby. And that, I've just oscillated between that since 28. Do you know what, though?

It's even worse. It's even worse than that just to add a small spanner into the work. Whatever you intend and think you can control, you can't. Right. Because I was intending to have childcare all the time. I'm the breadwinner and I've worked too hard and then I had a baby at 40 and unfortunately you are not in control

of the kind of parent you just want to become or become. So I've got friends who are absolutely still working we've got a friend at the moment who's filming six months, 13 hour days, partners looking after the baby and it's so amazing what I'm trying to say you just won't know

and you don't know what kind of shitty baby you get. This is the big thing I always say. If you get an easy one, yeah you can go back to work. If it's not an easy one, you can't go back to work. Or you do, but you're at work crying. You're at work crying. Because you can hear them in your dressing room. Yeah. Or if they're sickly or like, you just don't, again, it's...

This isn't helpful advice. No, but it's the thing is that we don't acknowledge enough, which again, because we were so, especially our generation were sold, like, well, you can do whatever you want and you work hard enough. So it's not true because there are things in life like your own health, your mental health, your physical health and children that you have no control over. and you don't really face those things very often in our life we can go about our life being like I'm in charge of what I listen to and what I consume

and what I do and then you hit in the face when somebody dies or someone has you want a baby and you're like oh shit and I didn't have any control over that and the biology of it is unfair because like you're saying men have so many more choices and can have families and can be really happy parents

and be involved in brilliant dads so many choices and if you want to have more than one child you have to do it again that's the so unfair thing it isn't their turn. You have to do it again. Barely recovered from the last. Barely recovered.

I couldn't even, when freezing my eggs, I couldn't believe the... It's horrible procedures. Yeah, but I was also like, you know, I was so resentful. I was like, my body and brain has to go. And you get the same result as you,

if you're with a mind. Yeah. I'm just like looking at him like, fuck you. It was rough. Like I, and because I'm, Because I have to interrogate all my feelings, like, deeply. And poor prick was just sat there like, well, what do you want to do?

No, it's horrible. It's horrible. I can't believe it. It's just not fair. It's just not fair. They just had to also acknowledge it's not fair. And then I'll talk to, you know, I was talking to my mind, I was like, the only way is to find acceptance in it and find what's the good bit.

And I'm like, can't find the good bit in terms of what I want from my life and what I want to do. If I'd been a man, it would have been easier sort of thing. And my friend was like, I don't know, the clones are nice. And I didn't even think that I want men to. It's like, oh. And it's not really about gender. It's just about, I'm just constantly in shock of like, I didn't notice this sooner. I want women to be able to be blaze and let things happen and follow and have adventures and journeys

that don't always have this looming cloud of I'm supposed to be thinking about that as well. I just think it's just not possible. That's like, I don't know, like you said, find the good in it. I think acceptance isn't finding good in something. Find the anger. Hit someone with a stick. Acceptance is just, it is. If you want to have babies, you have to think about it at a certain time.

That's just how it is. Like there isn't a positive or negative. And so I was just thinking, it made me think about Janie Mitchell, because I'm a Janie fan, that she, like, so she broke, I always think about it, she broke up with Graham Nash because he wanted kids. And she still, she was quoted as being like, it would have ruined my career. And then she had a baby, gave up for adoption when she was much younger and then produced her, the greatest album ever.

but the fact that like she now still makes music and made that choice and that she should be from a generation so far away from us do you know what I mean and we are still having this conversation means it's not about there isn't a society there isn't a society that can move this for us it is something we're dealing with that we can't do that make sense like this is a biology thing that we're doing with it then I get very angry about that oh yeah and I'm like no there must be a way there must be away and I'm like it's not going to be in my lifetime but they must be away

I don't, yeah, it's, it is like very heavy. The last album, like, I've really not enjoyed putting it together and putting it out. And because it ultimately felt, I'm proud of it and stuff. And I'm really glad how, and the show is, thank God for the show. But it was such a rush. And I was like, that was a self-imposed rush, but we all know why, you know. But is it also hard following up from a huge success? Also, that.

That was horrible. Yeah. And there's no word to complain about a huge success. Please, come in. Tell us how hard it is. It's so hard, guys, my arm, mom is so successful. I rationally was like, no one, you can't ever have that again. I'll never have that again.

Everyone loved it. Everyone was nice to me. But did you properly enjoy it because you'd worked so hard for it? Like, do you feel like you savied it? It was this weird thing where I was like, yes, I told you, I fucking told you. It was how I felt for a few months. And then it just got punishing schedule-wise that I went a bit mad. I worried about you from your social media.

because I was like, but she was just at a festival because she had a 13th festivals to do a wash-in. But you do need that, people do need to rest in between things. Yeah, I learned, I think I'm still born from that. I've somehow managed to make this album through one of like the weirdest lowest places of my life, but usually I don't understand it.

And that, I haven't understood this one. I still don't know. I'm still kind of in it. Like, I'm like, I feel pretty low. But I think the tour's going to help or whatever, but I can't remember one point is. But following success because a really great place is to be low and then to be given these gifts of praise and newness

and I wasn't expecting this but then you end up high which means there can be four styles where there were fives and intellectually one isn't allowed to be hurt by that four star is very good and everyone, you know, everyone really loves it and they're buying it which they did, you know. That's exactly what happened. It was like five stuff, five stuff. I wasn't quoting it on you.

No, but it is truly, and I remember because I'm not, I like, I could have gone to Sussex Unit, you know, I'm smart. I was like, this can't last, this won't last. Don't be validated by this because then you're still. And then I just didn't. And because I'd just been doing it for so long and there was so much like revenge in me that like that was fun. Rationally knew that also women doing well, they don't let you for long.

We all know that. And I was like, there's no way. There's no way it will. happen again. Even if I make a jagged little pill level brilliance, someone will say it's not good. And, you know, it was warmly to negatively received

by the critics, which I was like, I'm so ready, I'm so ready, and still I was like, ah, I couldn't, I like, it feels like some sort of rumour. But it's how it trick you into thinking that you've failed? I still feel like that. I still get sort of re-packaged back to you as a failure.

But your stage show had such huge response. Yeah, that was, thank God. for that. And then, you know, I know, I know, again, rationally, I've sold the tour out. It's the success. It's still going. Here I am. I'm still going. But I think there's loads of things. It's really, there's so many factors of why this hasn't felt great. And time alive, something after success. Also, just the music industry is like, it's even more stupid than ever. Like, in terms of, you know, it's broken and no, no, the people that broke it still benefit from. It's,

So it's not going to change. And I feel like sometimes I feel like I'm waking up from a cult. And I'm like, why do I? No amount of like good work or that interaction I get from like saying something and coming back. And that doesn't. And then I go, oh, but who's got that handbag advert? You know? And I'm like, oh, well, I guess I'm just not the sort of person.

I'm like, shoot me. Like it's just like relentless. But it's like it's so interesting because you sound like what we always minding about the comedy industry. of like, it's like a rigged hand. Yeah, exactly. And then, like, if things feel like failure, and then because you're all compared to each other, then you're like, oh, well, she's doing this and she's doing well.

I think it's the human brain. That's the fault here. I think it's a system. The human brain can't be rational. And then what you have to watch yourself being irrational, going, I didn't want the handbag advert. But yeah, I'm going to feel like a failure today. But they didn't even consider that.

I don't know. I think it's the fucking capitalist system that has put that in your brain. that's something you should have wanted. I think honestly, if we were pre-evolved, I still would be going, where should she get that mango? Oh, the tree likes her more than me? Oh, does God, is she God's favorite?

Yeah, I still would have it because it's the self-harming nature. I think. I used to get the mangoes. There must be a reason I'm not getting the mangoes anymore. It's because I'm old. If we're not in a patriarchy, it wouldn't be like,

oh, whoever has the most mangoes is the best. It would be like, hey, who needs mangoes? Like, we'd have a different system, And you wouldn't be thinking, oh, I need mangoes. I fully believe the system is what fucks it up more than the brain. Yeah. Well, that's good because then after the environmental apocalypse, you might go back to those times, Carrier.

That is what it's for. That's what it's for. Because I do think it's end of days in terms of any kind of selling music or making anything. We were just talking about, like, why they weren't exist in 10 years? Yeah, it's hard to be, this sounds really old, but to be people who grew up, be people who remember a CD coming out, Alanas Morseyn going to our price to buy it and putting it and that being exciting and to like remember of forgotten world.

Like I always say we have the Victorians. It's like being like, hey guys, listen, the carriages, the horse and carriage was good. It was good. I know this car is fun, but the horses were nice. It's horrible to have witnessed them both. Yes, that's how I feel. You've got too much memory where you're like, there was a time where we cared about. Yeah.

I do say that a lot. I'm like, I was sort of made to believe I could be anything. and also I'm still very stuck in some traditional pressure. Yeah. Yeah. But then I go, it's just songs. Like, just keep doing it. Who cares?

You know, I zoom out enough. And the only way to get myself out of it is to sort of go, shut up, get on with it. And that's it. So there will be another album afterwards, which then isn't the one that follows the hugely successful one. And it puts you in such a very small minority of people who know what it is to,

carry on making work after being really successful because some people just don't. As in they go to write that next book or their next album and they go, you've kicked the ladder away. Like how does anyone make anything else? And I think also it doesn't stop like it doesn't mean you don't continue like you don't play in that playground.

It's like yeah, fuck it. It's rigged and it's pointless and there's all this stuff. But yeah, I want to be here. I like making music. I like making jokes. You're being very wise today, Carrie. I love it. Guys, my kids went back to school. It's really shit. You still do it. Is that what happened?

My kids went back to school. And I can't tell you the zenness you find for all things now that they, someone else has to look after them. Oh, yeah, baby. But I do still think it's important to show up to be like, well, yeah, I'm going to do it. There might not be any point to it, but I was never doing it because it was some magical thing. I was doing it because I wanted to. Yeah.

I wanted to be Alanis Morissette, right? And if the music industry wasn't quite so horrificly broken, I'd have made an open, I'd have made an money from Slow Club to not be so stressed out like I am now about money. For me, like, the best reasoning I have is that fear about money. And that's the only thing that makes me wish I was getting the handbag advert. Are you having to say yes to stuff you wouldn't necessarily want to? And you start to crave the things that I'm, like, desperate for the, you know, the cash, right? Just to make me feel better.

And because you can't get it from the music, you can't get it from, like, playing live. you make it bigger so then that doesn't really make you know it's but it's it's a day you know it's hard to sit and complain because it's still and make a living out of it and it's actually very interesting I think to talk about money and how things work because I'm always fascinated and I think people listening will be fascinated as well it's good to hear people talk about that because you just assume people are then facelessly rich and it wouldn't impact on creativity but actually it does for everyone well I've got that theory is where you know often superseded by people from privileged backgrounds,

but certainly back when it in the sort of indie folk days. And it's like I never understood that there's creatively less pressure and jeopardy on it having to work, which my best work comes from when I go, fuck it's, I want to do this and I'm not pressured, right? So I do often wonder what would happen if I did, you know, O-Maze came around and then I was fine for it. And like, would I make my best work then? I don't, oh, do you need the hunger or that, blah, blah, blah. But I am, like, working class background fear of your physical safety. Like, I don't think I'll ever lose that.

Yeah. But, you know, I'll get nice to shower gels. But it also depends about how you feel about the audience. Because I know some people who still have, and I respect it so much, this sort of death of the audience. Like, it was never for them. So I would have a fear. For instance, like, a bigger room or, like, a bigger tour would make we go,

I know how much they're paying for tickets. I know, like, how much they're paying for everything. You know, they're gas in the electricity. It has to be good now. It has to be good. And what parking costs at that venue and all the levees, that's the pressure, is providing something that's worthy, whereas I know people who just go, oh, they're lucky to see me.

Yeah. And I'm not just saying that's men, that's women as well. No, yeah, yeah. If you can get to a point, if you can evolve to a point of going, they're lucky to see me, I'm just showing them what I've got. God, you've given me some good. That's so true, isn't it? Yeah.

I want to end on one thing that made me laugh out loud that you wrote in your book. Kendall Roy in different historical periods like Blackadder Great So good See I would watch it So this is my ego So succession

Would be like I don't know Maybe that's his Elizabethan But then we take him We could take him back to the 80s We could take him like So here's the thing So I'm going to do a play next year

This David Hair play That was written in the 70s It's about a girl in a band And it took a while To figure out like Why to do that I was looking for the right thing to do next acting wise. And I was like, it's like blackadder.

It's like self-esteem black had her in the 70s. I'm surrounded by men. She's like the most resilient person on that stage. She's the most sort of fucking fucked off person on that stage. But she's the most, you know, she will live on because she has to fucking do this. So it's next year. But yeah, my black had a theory of where I've applied to myself. Yeah, that's such a good idea.

You described yourself as a beautiful shock. So that's how I see you now because I am extremely arrogant went through looking for my birthday on the day, so on my birthday 22nd of May but better than that 22, I really like the number 2 which is when I turned 42

which is the answer to the universe What did I say? This is like a kind of horoscope you can do for yourself in self-esteem's book Be wary of the opinions you respect I could get that tattooed on me You should get that on your arm

Should get that on my arm. Me and Jack Rook just got Chouca Sengue which is each to his own which is the Robbie Williams has got it which is basically saying that I saw you in Leicester Square Oh no

We're Jack Going to the Robbie Williams premiere Because I picked up my tickets after you And do you know what you were saying to your friend You said you were saying You were saying You were saying This isn't even the most exciting thing I've done today

I know What had I done that day? I don't know But obviously I was fascinated So I needed to know what are you done. No, but I loved that film and I love Robbie Williams. Well, I love that film and really... I've seen it three times.

Have you? I went twice, more paid. Did you? And then I met him, I sang with him. Yeah, and I was like, mate, I can't... He was like, yeah, yeah, it's old news to him in the film. And I was just like, it's a genius work. It's so brilliant.

But he's like you because he shares so much of himself and that's a really painful thing to do. That's why you'll be best friends. I'm worried he's going to make you write all his songs, though. Be careful. Okay, and I'm not for it. No, because he would just say that it was him. and they'll be like, how do you know so much about the female experience?

Oh, I see. Yeah, yeah. But don't let him play towards you. That's what I'm trying to say. Have boundaries. That's about. What's the paying? Talk to us and we'll negotiate the price for you.

Amazing music. Brilliant book. I hope it goes really, really well. I think it's like, no one has read it. Apart from, even Wiseman was like, I love the book. I was like, oh, my, that's a cool gang to be in. Wait till the man reads it. I'll hate it.

Thank you so much. I think you can stay here all day. You're amazing. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening to The Weirdo's Book Club. A complicated woman is out now. I'm probably nearby if you look around you. The paperback of my middle grade book, Lydia Marmalade and the Christmas Wish,

is also available to buy now if you're looking for Christmas presents with somebody. It'd be weird if I got it for you. I'd love it, actually. I'd like to buy a copy. Be surprised when you open it. And I'm on tour. Tickets for my show, I am a strange clue, but on sale from sarah pasco.com. i'm going to bradford i'm going to portsmouth i'm going to lester i'm coming to london you can find out

all about the upcoming books we're going to be discussing this series on our instagram head to at sarah and karyad's weirdos book club and let's know what you want us to read and please join us on patreon for lots more weird and wonderful stuff and we are a bit bitchier on there thank you for reading with us we like reading with you