Sara & Cariad's Weirdos Book Club - A Plot to Die For by Ardal O'Hanlon with Ardal O'Hanlon

Episode Date: September 17, 2026

This week's book guest is A Plot to Die For by Ardal O'Hanlon.Sara and Cariad are joined by award-winning comedian, actor, writer and star of Father Ted and Death in Paradise - Ardal O'Hanlon.In this episode they discuss Ulysses, Death in Paradise, Tidy Towns, Alan Titmouse, stand-up comedy and murder. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you!Trigger warning: In this episode we discuss murder and murderers.A Plot to Die For is out now and available here.Support the podcast, enjoy ad-free listening and more weird and wonderful bonus content by signing up to our Patreon at patreon.com/c/weirdosbookclubFollow Sara & Cariad’s Weirdos Book Club on Instagram @saraandcariadsweirdosbookclub and Twitter @weirdosbookclub Produced, recorded and edited by Naomi Parnell for Plosive.Assistant Producer is Amy Townsend-Lowcock for Plosive.Artwork by Welcome Studio.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I'm Sarah Pasco And I'm Carriead Lloyd And we're weird about books We love to read We read too much We talk too much About the too much that we've read Which is why we created

The Weirdo's Book Club A space for the lonely outsider To feel accepted and appreciated Each week we're joined by amazing comedian guests And writer guests To discuss some wonderfully And crucially weird books

Writing, reading And just generally being a weirdo You don't even need to have read the books To join in It'll be a really interesting wide raging conversation And maybe you'll want to read the book afterwards Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you.

This week's book is a plot to die for by Ardle O'Hanlonan. What's it about? Finn O'Leary is a celebrity gardener, returning to his hometown of Abbeyford in Ireland, but it's not long before he's roped in to solving a murder. What qualifies it for the weirdos book club? Well, you won't notice how macabre it is because of its chirpy exterior. In this episode we discuss Ulysses, Death in Paradise, Heidi Towns, Adelae, Alan Titmouse, stand-up comedy, and murder. Joining us this week is Ardle himself. You know Ardell O'Hanlon. He's incredible, brilliant, comedian, actor and writer. You know him from Father Ted. You know him from Death in Paradise.

You know him. He's so brilliant. And he joined us himself in the studio. Welcome to the podcast, Ardala Hanlon, and his book, A Plot to Die for. Great title. A brilliant title. Yeah.

And beautiful cover. It's the kind of book, they think, when it's sitting in your house, even, you just keep picking it up. I want to have a delightful time. Yeah, you don't have to read it. Just look at the book. Did your title come first? No, the title came really late.

I was really panicking about a title actually. Because you need it, because it's a detective thriller. You have to have murder or death or something like that in the title and something that gives you some sort of hint as to the kind of theme or the background. And there's a gardening theme, so a plot to die for. I've only just got that. That's where it was good. That's where I was like, oh, gardening. I should have wrote an explanatory note on the cover.

I just kept thinking, what a lot. clever plot. It's a plot. I've thought the play on the word was to die for was the play on words. No, many lords. Yeah. No, but it came really late and it was like, like I had lots of discussions with my editor because I had titled like Bloomin Murder.

Oh, yeah. It's not many of phrase, is it? Blumen Murder. Yeah. And then, you know, just, yeah. We went through hundreds of them and then eventually we sort of settled on the plot to die. That's good. It's a great title. It's great. I love the Irishism. It makes scenes jump off the page.

Yeah. For me, like, writing a book, it's like it's really important of a sense of place. You know, just, and like, you know, Ireland and Britain are very similar in lots of ways, but there are, you know. Very different in other ways. Yeah, culturally. Yeah. Culturally. I mean, even though we're so close together geographically, like, just given our, like the way we developed kind of very differently. Like, we didn't have an industrial revolution, for example. We didn't have the Reformation in Ireland. And these are like massive seismic kind of movements. And we didn't have those really. Like we remained very agrarian like for centuries.

And, you know, so I think we just evolved slightly differently. Can I ask a stupid question? Is Abbeyford a real place? That was one thing I didn't know. No, but it's based on real places. Because the level of detail that you have when you're talking about like the high street and the shops. And I was like, I felt like, oh, either he's done an amazing job of a place that's real or you're sort of protecting a town. Because it felt like a real town.

So if you'd named it, we'd all want to visit it. So it's like you've changed the name so that not hundreds of visitors don't turn up and destroy that. Yeah, I actually did spend a little bit of time. Because, like, so I had two previous novels and they're both set in border towns, which have a different character from this town of Abbeyford. Like they're kind of dower and people are reserved by, you know, by nature. Like just given the proximity to the border. the troubles and a long history of smuggling and everything, you know, people are just kind of, there's an omerta. And, you know, the towns of a certain character as well, just given where

they're situated in the country. So I was looking for something sunnier down to the southeast of Ireland. So there are towns like Waterford, Wexford, New Ross, Enascarty, Kilkenny even. You've played Kilkenny and you know what that town's like. So it's got a lovely river in the middle of it and, you know, lovely public buildings, you know, great history. Anglo-Norming. kind of history. So I was looking for all of that. So it is a composite of a few towns, but I did spend a lot of time just taking photographs of these places and just visiting them hanging out sitting in cafes and yeah. That makes sense because some of the building's descriptions felt so real. Yeah, but when I'm reading books, I don't know about you're like,

I like I want this kind of, I want to be transported. Yeah, yeah. You know, I'm thinking of books like Barbara Kingsolver, demon copperhead or something. Like you've got a real sense of place. You're there. You're in, you're in the Appalachians and, you know, leek, county or whatever and you get a sense of the people and the place. Yes. Yeah, yeah. My favorite Irishism is when someone, just at the beginning of scenes when someone goes, Ah, it's yourself.

That's just such a wonderful greeting, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there was one spelling of, Howia, howia, yeah, all together. Yeah, H-O-W-A-R-Y-A. I spelled that really right. I think it'd be like, you know, you know, the magazine, Hello in the UK. Yeah. Like our version, that would be Howia.

Howia. How yeah. Would it still have an exclamation mark? It would. Not a question, Mark. Yeah. So tell us about it. Tell us about our detective

and what the story is about. Finn O'Leary is his name. He's a celebrity gardener who's had a good career in Britain. He's been on radio. He's got a show on Radio 4, a very confessional sort of a radio show where people ring in with their gardening questions. But, you know, the people who are ringing in

aren't really talking about their gardening issues. They're lonely. And they want to talk to somebody who's a good attentive listener. He's also got a show on TV called Garden nightmares where he kind of helps people with their terrible, massive gardening problems. But anyway, he's at a loose end in his life. His marriage is kind of failing. He's in his sort of early 40s.

And his mother is really sick back home and Abbeyford, this fictional town. So he comes back to Ireland to help care for his elderly mother. And very, very quickly, he ends up involved in murder investigations. Yeah, it's not, I don't think as a spoiler to say, very quickly, somebody dies. Somebody dies. In front of him. He brings his mother to choir back. Yeah.

And it really is sort of almost at the same. second sort of, we meet a little set of characters straight away. Straight away. Straight away. We're in there. Someone has been brutally murdered at the choir. We don't know it's murder at the beginning actually. Yeah, yeah. It doesn't look great. It's a little bit vague, but, you know, people have their suspicions. They do. During a rendition of what the world needs now. Yeah. Carriad, you don't read a lot of crime fiction. I don't. No, I'm scared of crime fiction. This is probably the most gruesome a murder because I was thinking, very mild death. I mean, I used to go. It's quite gruesome. He starts like foaming at the mouth.

But not a patch on the second murder. It's my favorite murder. in literary fiction. But yeah, Sarah reads more hardcore. I would say all kinds, because it's my favorite kind of storytelling. I feel like it's the deepest thing of finding out what happened. All stories are, tell me what happened. People like yourself, they hide information from you. Yeah.

So you're adding together deducing things as you go. And the brain just enjoys it so much. Well, this is what I love about crime fiction, is like when you set out to write a novel, even a genre novel, or even a song, sub-genre novel, because I think this falls into the category of cozy crime. You're still setting out to write the best novel in the world. And you're still kind of, you know, as well as having a ticking clock and all the tropes of crime fiction, you are, I suppose, processing real feelings on the page.

You are covering all your pet themes, your peeves, all of those things. So, you know, you've got these real world themes. I mean, for me, like a massive theme is family and community. we can get on to that in a minute there's a backdrop of this thing called the Tidy Towns Competition which kind of I suppose typifies that almost demented sense of community

that people in Ireland have. So you know you've got and you know this obligation to one's ailing parents would be another theme. You know you've got this mother-son relationship at the heart of it I suppose you're trying to create this like rich community

full of characters that you try to develop as far as possible. Everyone has a story. everyone has a backstory. You know, the town is a history, which is a microcosm of Irish history. It's amazing because actually you as a writer, you do, sometimes you tell us a really interesting fact. Sometimes you are doing a comedian's observation. It's very funny.

It's very funny. It's very funny. It never interrupts it, but you do have, there are set pieces. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which are just observational, you know, whether it's biscuits or traffic lights. And they're two police officers, Valerie and special. There we are. So called special because he's initials at FX.

It's a fancy savior which really made me love. And being low-level famous. You're very, very funny about that. And obviously someone like yourself, you and Father Ted, which is such a huge show that means such a lot to people, I'm sure you have had, just like Finn O'Leary, had the whole spectrum of approaches

from people pretending they don't know who you are. Finn observes, doesn't he, like the people who are most... It's not rude, but never mention anything with this career turn out to be the biggest fans because they're the ones who can't even say that. And I know that position of being a comedy fan And, you know, when you start in comedy and you're talking to someone,

I was like a gig with Norman Love It, who of course was Holly and Red Dwarf. I remember, I loved, yeah, I used to. Yeah, but I had to play it cool. I was like acting like, no big deal, no big deal. And then he just said something, but like, oh God, you know, sometimes people I really love Reddorf.

And I was like, yeah, yeah. I was like, sitting there thinking like, I've watched every episode of like every series more than once. He's lucky you're a professional actor. Yeah, I had to just like call it out. But again, you must have had that with. Yeah. And like for this character, Finn O'Leary, yeah, I mean, there's definitely, I can relate to him.

I mean, all your characters are sort of loosely based on some aspect of yourself. Like you splinter when you're writing into multiple voices. I think this is true with actors, actually, who are great writers. So you are playing all the characters. You are. And as you're writing them, like, you're literally mimicking them. And also, like, even with the stand-up background, you know, you're afraid you're going to lose their attention. So, you know, you will throw in a joke or something, you know, because like, you know,

and obviously on stage you're very exposed and your obligation is to be compelling at all times and if you can bring that into your writing, that's great. But like for Finn, you know, that kind of experience with sort of fame or celebrity, you know, all horrible words, horrible terminology. But it kind of, like, and this is something that I can absolutely relate to,

people will confide in you. People, strangers will come up to you and tell you their life story. I've had murderers recounting in great detail, their murder and conviction and imprisonment. Is this since writing not because they thought you were a priest? No, no, no, no, I just meet lots of murderers. How was that?

How did you cope with that? Well, I mean, I was scared and I tried to get away. This was, you know, someone who had served his time. And he, you know, I just met him at a party and he just told me his experience. And, you know, it's always interesting to hear people's stories. Yeah, yeah. And I remember even like from a very early age, I remember, like, my dad was a doctor at GP, and I used to go and call with him.

Wow. And I remember, like, when I was eight or nine, going to a house where somebody had taken someone else's life, and he was out in bail, and he was under sedation under care of his family doctor. I remember sitting at the table, and, like, I couldn't believe my eyes as a kid, as a wide-eyed, impressionable child, talking to this man across the table, eating the marietta biscuits and drinking the tea. Wow.

Wow. And it's gone, this is a murderer. Yeah. In terms of my closing, early experience for you, I don't think there are many cozy crime writers that are close to real murder. I think, and I don't think... I'm uniquely qualified.

I don't think it's a pejorative term because actually, I think the reason that cozy crime is beloved is because we get to enjoy the storytelling but know that we're in safe hands and it's not going to make us feel really bleak afterwards. They might be happy ends. There might be a love story.

That's what cozy crime means. Yeah, you're not constantly being like, oh, God, this is awful. But I think to some people write it going, We're talking about murder, but we're not going really, but I feel like this is maybe where yours is really pinned into something, whether it's human psychology or a sense of small towns. Yeah. Well, I've got real misgivings about the term. It's a publishing term.

The publishers need to, I suppose, pigeonhole your book in some way. Yeah, they need to force it into the hand of someone who liked something else. It's just an arrow for the book, basically, isn't it? But for me, like, it's just a novel. It's comprehensive. I did set out to write a very funny, entertaining, even romantic kind of novel, you know, and but with this underpinned by these real important themes to me, this notion of family. Like my mother had got quite sick a few years ago and I did, you know, along with my family,

become part of her care team for a while and it was really rewarding and fantastic. And she made an amazing recovery, but I got to know her really well during that time. And I thought this would be the, you know, a good basis for an amateur detective team. And very quickly, like her carer who's called Happiness comes on board. I think happiness is my favorite. Yeah, happiness. I know. That's the feedback I'm getting from a lot of people.

There's something, I don't know if it's like a character who's mysterious. So you know a little bit less from their inner psychology. So you're projecting onto them. But her timing, the whole Dundee, that was a really interesting fact. That's a really good example of the way you just sprinkle information in and we learn something. So it's that Dundee is an insult. In Nigeria. In Nigeria.

Yeah. So she's got a Nigeria background. happiness. She is my favourite character as well. She's very formidable. She doesn't like Finn. She takes an instant dislike to him. That sort of thing where everyone else is so charmed by him. And especially because he's going back to somewhere where he came from and he's now very successful. Of course he's beloved. So it's great to have a character just sort of giving him evil. Yeah. From day one. Like she's moralistic. She's judgmental. She's unimpressed by it.

Also I liked that he's come back to help, but that's still not good enough for her. But it's not good enough. Like where was he for the last few years? You know. She's like fiercely loyal to Maura, Finn's mother. And, you know, they all play a part in helping to solve the murder mystery. And this is kind of like where the whole notion of community comes in. So let me just fill you in on the tidy towns. Yes, yes. Tidy towns is very funny.

It's a real thing. I knew it was a real thing. Of course it is. And so there is, I believe there are things like Britain and Bloom. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Keep Britain tidy and stuff like that. Roundabout of the year. Yes.

That kind of thing. Yeah. But this is, I can't describe to you the scale of. Tidy Towns, and Ireland. So every town village, Hamlet City gets involved. There'd be a committee in every town, and they will fight the death to win the ultimate accolade of Tidy Town every year. And also each county nominates something.

So like if you win your county and then you go on to win... You want to win the national thing. So it's not just about planting, even though that's a big part of it. So Finn is immediately roped into it against his better judgment. He wants the quiet life. He just wants to, you know, reconnect with his mother and his family. and take a bit of a time out from his busy career. But immediately he's roped into the Tidy Town's effort by IFA,

this old sort of friend, sister of his friend, who is a leading light in the Tidy Towns campaign. And she's a local school teacher, and she's very plugged into the community. And so it's about litter collection, so there'll be three or four, like, you know, where hundreds of people get involved and picking up litter during the week. It's about restoring old buildings.

It's about painting. It's about biodiversity. It's about inclusion. Getting all the like sort of the immigrant groups involved, getting all the schools involved, all of those kind of things. So it's a really beautiful thing when you think about it. Like I was a person who couldn't wait to get away from my small town. Don't get me wrong and get away to London and, you know, be anonymous in the big city.

But as you get older, I suppose you kind of do appreciate those kind of things when you have kids and stuff with that as well. They call it the generativity stage in psychology, which is sort of predictable. And it's to do with being a sort of a mammal species. but you're very self-interested into your 30s. And then there's this next phase where it does become about community and connection and society and the younger generations. And all of a sudden, yeah, it makes me want to weep the idea of it being tidy. I know.

I'm like, this is so beautiful. Come and get involved. You live here too. Because it is about taking pride in where you live. And maybe we're a bit averse to that because that can be a bit... I think there's a certain English stereotype of the kind of people who get involved in that. Exactly. A busy body.

A busy body, a vicious, annoying. And I think in Ireland, there seems to be a kind of, there is a stereotype, but there's a warmth to it of like, oh, they're all right. Whereas in England's like, they're a fucking arse. Well, don't get me wrong. There is the bickering and the inviting as well. I did a little bit of research on this. Like, I don't, I'm not really, I'm not involved in that, like, because I'm busy, you know.

But now you've written this book. You're going to be tiny towns frontman for Dublin. But I did talk to people who are very involved in it. And it is hilarious. They told me some hilarious stories. gave me the whole lore of it and the history of it and everything else. And, like, give me a good template for the type of projects you might get involved in during the course of a campaign. And, you know, you do have the bickering and the infighting.

You also have the rivalry with neighbouring towns, which, again, is a little subplot in my novel. Like, there's a little bit of sabotage. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is kind of important. But it just provides this kind of, for me, it's a colourful backdrop. It also, you know, makes it distinctively kind of Irish. It gives you that sense of place again. and it gives you that kind of engine, like, where there's like, so you're not just trying to solve the murders, murder's plural.

Yeah. Yeah, don't worry, guys, there's more than that first one we mentioned. In real time, but you're also, you know, there is a bit of it, there's a bit of pressure like, you know, because the judges arrive anonymously. You don't know when they're going to come to your town. It's like the Edinburgh Comedy Festival. Yeah, exactly. You don't know. You don't know.

So you better, you know, you better be on your game all the time. Yeah, yeah. And sabotage is the last thing you need. With the gardening stuff, because the character reminded me slightly of Deermid Garvin. Deer Midgarvin, yeah, who would be an Irish gardener. So he reminded me a bit of that, but he wasn't like an inspiration for it. But there's a lovely Anna Titmouse joke, right?

Right off the bat. But Deer Mid is an Irish gardener who does lots of stuff over here. Yeah, he'd be quite well known, I think, in gardening. And he's quite like, he's a bit of a dish to the older ladies. And he's a bit like, you know, he's kind of relaxed about the garden. He's like, it's got a different vibe to it. He's a lovely man. I actually know him.

And he was a little bit of an inspiration in some ways. But so is someone like Gordon Ramsey. Imagine if Gordon Ramsey, you know, was a gardener and he goes back to a small town in Scotland. But do you like gardening? Because the level of knowledge, I was like, this is like hardcore because I like gardening. That's why I was like, oh, this is like serious gardening knowledge. I mean, I'm not good at gardening. I'm good at Googling.

Oh, okay. I have a great interest. I love the world around me. love the outdoors. And as I get older, I spend more and more time outdoors and tramping around the place and looking at things and I'd love to know the name of that. But I don't know that stuff. So, you know, that was part of the pleasure of writing the novel as well, was getting to know a little bit about that kind of stuff. Now, I do make a disclaimer at the end saying that, you know, any mistakes are my own. And I'm sure there's stuff out of season in the novel and all that.

I've never grown that quickly. Yeah, exactly. So I am expecting some very angry letters. Yeah. Well, there's people who take it seriously are gardeners. No, gardeners are not too busy to get hungry. Maybe they're calm? No. Is they always recommended a stress relief going to do gardening? That's why they need to do it because they're stressed people.

Gardner are the kind of people. They love to write a letter. Do you think? Yeah. Yeah. But this guy is kind of, he's kind of like he's a good listener and he's, you know, he's an observer and he's a thinker, but he's, and he doesn't want to get involved in crime solving or anything like that. Yeah. So he's dragged into it.

Which is what we want in a, in a. a hero in this kind of novel, don't we? We don't want them to be keen for it. That would be very distasteful. And whereas Ifa is like she's a force of nature. She's impulsive. She's rash. She's kind of funny.

She's, you know, she's a great foil to him. And they have this kind of, kind of, I suppose it's sort of a will, they won't this sort of a thing going on. And I think I don't want to spoil anything. But, you know, I really love their relationship. Also, they have this backstory of very similar to Carrie Ad the little sister of the best friend. I think that instantly carried up, married him. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, I liked that the setup was very, because I got up in North London and everybody thinks London, oh, London's huge, but actually it's a collection of villages, and it reminded me of that thing of when you go back. Like, I can't walk down the high street with bumping into someone I went to school with or someone's mom, who knows my mum.

And that's what I thought you captured very well of Abbyford, that feeling of like when you return somewhere and how much a community instantly like pulls you back into it even if you've been gone like 20 years. Yeah, yeah. And that's something that I try to track a lot of the time. Like what was the relationship between that family and that family

and that person and that person? And like those people will recur now in the next novel. There will be another. This is one of three. Well, it's definitely one of two. I mean, I've started a second one. And, you know, ideally, yes, there'll be a third. And who knows?

Yeah. But so, so yeah. So some characters will recur. They'll all be there in the background. You know, they're all absolutely established Abbeford citizens. And then some people will come to the fore a little bit who might have been only peripheral in the first novel. Oh, yeah. And I love that world building.

Yeah, yeah. You've done that so well. It's very exciting. And it means, I guess, when you're writing, you can, if you have ideas and think, oh, hang on, that's not for this one. That's for later. Yeah. Yeah. Can we talk a bit about death in paradise?

You make such a funny joke at the beginning when the characters watched death in paradise. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, the metanus of that of like, yeah, you being on that show and that obviously being, again, using the term very loosely, but a cozy crime situation. So Richard Osmond never has the Thursday Murder Club watching pointless. He should. House of games, yeah. But it's like, you know, I always love crime fiction from an early age.

And it's like, you know, you want little Easter eggs like that, you know, kind of in there. And it gives you a nod as to the type of, you know, people they are, you know, his mother. and happiness watch Death and Paradise. You know, Finn doesn't want to watch it, but he has to watch it because they're watching it. Yeah, and they write down who the murderer is at the start of the show to see who gets it right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But yeah, so when you were doing that show, did that kind of, again, inspire you, you know, when you're doing those regular plots and you're doing those crimes, seeing it, are you kind of like thinking. So Death and Paradise have a different sort of different crime every episode. Yeah. So you were seeing structurally in every script,

exactly. This is what you show, this is what you don't show. This is your denoumon. like that structure over and over again. Yeah. So exactly. So it was around that time that like I was having the conversation with the publisher about writing this type of novel.

Like my previous two novels, I can't tell you like they were so bleak. They were so nihilistic. Like to the point of, you know, I mean, I wouldn't recommend them. But did you think you maybe had to get them out of your system first? Kind of. I mean, I love them. Don't get me wrong.

I mean, the first novel I wrote was just a very, very bleak kind of. you know, coming of age story, a very troubled young man growing up in the border region. Is that where you grew up on the borders, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, with the spillover of the troubles, the kind of almost desensitization to violence, toxic masculinity. So it was really all, it was, that's the territory this was in. Now, for me, it's really funny, but really bleak.

Yeah, yeah. And then my next novel was 25 years later, and that was again set in that region. It was post-troubles. It was, but there was a big crime at the heart of it. So that's where my publisher, or this other publisher, Simon & Schuster, came to me and said, listen, we loved Bruhaha, your last novel. Clearly, there's a crime novelist trying to burst out of that. Would you be interested in writing a crime novel?

Can it be not in the border? Have you looked down south? Can it not be as savage and bleak and viciously funny as that one? Kill Kenny's nice in the summer, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's interesting then. So did you already have an idea or was that the gem of, okay, now I'm going to start thinking about this? Well, it was like, so I was doing death and paris.

I did four kind of series of that or, you know, two full series, two-half-sum. That's film in Guadeloupe in Caribbean, French Caribbean. I had to turn down an episode of Guadaloupe. I think it was two weeks in Guadalupe, but it was like during one of the lockdown periods, I had like a six-month-old old baby and a three-year-old, and they rang and they were like, you'd have to go and base like four days. And I had to say no. Because it's literally the best job in the world for a guest actor.

No. For like, you know, for like, you know, I was like, I can't. You know, and it was just, everyone's too young. Babies are too young. You were being so thoughtful to your husband. I was saying, just go. He looked at me like, I used fucking kidding me. Like, it was just a really bad.

It would have been so bad. You're listening to death in paradise. I wish I, yeah. But then I got to do. I know, but then I got to do the one in Cornwall. Oh, right. Which I was like, oh, actually had a lovely time. So you had to live out there for quite a long time.

So I had to live out there for quite a long time. And all the time you'd be doing these kind of, you know, it was all about the plot. I mean, it was, like, let's be fair, like it was never about characters, really. It was about the ingenious murder mystery at the heart of it every week. And while I was there, you'd always be trying to think of a murder, of interesting murders. And sometimes you'd go to the producer with it, listen, what about it? Did you?

Yeah, you would. Like, you'd be trying to think if I was writing an episode, what would my murder be? And so then when it came to writing sort of a more formal kind of murder mystery novel, I was thinking my first thought was actually an actor. working on, working as a as a fictional detective in a series set in the Caribbean. That's how I imagine the boy. And then a real murder

happens on set and then he ends up having to solve the real murder. So I thought that was a pretty good idea. But then I thought it was a bit too close to home. And then I came up with the idea. A court case coming in. But then, you know, you're still trying to kind of think of a character that's not a million miles away from where you are. So as you can write about sort of the kind of things that interest you, this notion of this relationship with fame and things like that.

And so I'm So I came up with this idea of the celebrity gardener. And I really liked that from the start. And then when I got the, when I got the connection with the mother thing, then it was all beginning to lock into place. And I did have a murder that I thought about five years previously. It's the second murder, which I love. And I thought I'd never read that in fiction before.

And so I sort of had a mile so I need to get to that at a certain point in the novel. And I sat down and I really, really plotted it out. I think you have to with these kinds of things. You can't just see what happens or what a character might do. You have to seed so much stuff, don't you? You have to, like, so much stuff has to be planted early on to come. I think people who don't plan well enough, they get three quarters the way through. Yeah, and you can't wait up.

And then they realize, oh, my scaffolding, like, yeah. I know, yeah. And I did that. Like, and I hadn't done it with my previous two novels, like, where I really sat down for a few months before I even committed to writing the novel. Like, it was like, I don't know if I can write a crime novel. Yeah. You know, so I actually. Because if you really like something.

Yeah, it's hard. I think it is hard, isn't it? That's how I feel about fantasy. I'd love to write a fantasy novel, but I love it. too much. Well, that's what I felt about crime fiction. Because I've always read it since I was a kid, and I have too much respect for crime novels to assume that I can write one.

So, you know, now, the publisher was very encouraging and said, you definitely can write one. And I believe... Pound signs in their eyes. Well, you definitely can. Look, it's here. You did it. Paradise.

Yeah, you did it. Yeah. But then it was hard. Like, then it was kind of like, but can I write, can I eliminate the gore and the explicit sex and the profanity and the jeopardy that was very much part of my previous two novels? Like, am I actually capable of restraining my darker impulses? And I just know if I was.

But then when I start writing it, like, I never had such fun writing anything. It's such a fun book, Addo. It's such a fun read. That's what we were texting each other the minute we started. And I'll say that for anyone listening. Your book is definitely there. The second you started, you're like, oh, Ardo isn't just really funny on stage. She's going to give me this most entertaining story.

Like, in the end, you know, I'm not as cynical as I thought I was. Oh, you do think you've changed? Or maybe you've changed. And I think sometimes as writers, like you said, there's stuff that you have to come out. And obviously growing up in the borders, living with that shadow, that was obviously something that needs to come out.

Maybe you've got to a time in your life, you're like, well, I can, I don't need that. There's a big element of that. Yeah. Absolutely. And as I say, like, you know, I ignore the term cozy crime. Like, for me, that's not even a factor.

Like, it just, you know, Jane Austen didn't have gore and profanity. She's very cozy. She's very cozy. Drawing room coming. Yeah, yeah. What's your writing process? Like, are you someone that's very disciplined?

Do you just sit down at a desk 9 to 5? Or do you have to like trick yourself to turn up at the desk? I was pretty good with this one. I was pretty good. Like once I committed and I dove in, took a deep breath and, you know, like chain myself to the desk. You're not always writing. Obviously, you're distracted and you're, you know, doing everything else.

Yeah, Googling plants. Yeah, and you're racked with self-doubt. Like, this is the thing which most comedians I know suffer from, like, more than any other species, is the self-doubt. Yeah. And that absolutely. Yeah.

In the quiet of you and a, yeah, a computer writing. So there's no substitute for, like, discipline, for hard work, for rewriting, rewriting endlessly. And particularly with the crime novel, you know, finding the threads and going back over it and refining it and refining it, million times. So you've got to, for every potential suspect, you've got to be really careful and you've got to go back over it a million times to kind of make sure that it's plausible. They have a good justification for it. They have, you know, you've planted little, you know,

that if you reread it, you kind of go, oh, yes, definitely it was him or her that did it. Because there are some really, really gripping, very, very successful crime thrillers, which the ending is so disappointing because while everything's really plotted and you didn't guess it, you also go, well, that's just not realistic. Oh, I see. Yeah, yeah. It just sort of like then deflates and you go, yeah, I was. I did, you know, go to bed three hours later because I wanted to find out what happened. And then I found out what happened and thought, well, that's not, no one's like that.

Not single person's ever been born. Who thinks like that? Yeah, well, I was talking about romances. Romances do the same thing. So it's like, well, they won't, they will, they won't they? And if just at the end, they do, you're like, oh, like you, that ending where everything's tied up is, I've never really thought, I think, because I don't read crime. So when I read it, I'm not, and my husband's, and my husband's, the same, he's obsessed with crime and detective stories. So he's looking like, oh, him, him, him, oh, this.

I'm just like, oh, okay. They said it wasn't them. Oh, well. It's being aware where someone shows your eyes. So when you're watching it, I've got better. And the director says, you know, just at the corner of eye, the honey jar's got lid off. And they do it. And so what happens when you consume a lot of it?

You go, oh, that's interesting detail. Didn't put his keys back in his pocket. Which, yes. Which you do is. I did actually in this one. I was like, oh, that is suspicious, actually. Yeah. They're trying to make me think that's suspicious.

It's definitely not them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you're constantly doing that. And we do it and stand up all the time. You plant little landmines at the beginning and you detonate them all towards the end. And the payoff, multiple payoffs. It's the real pleasure of a stand-up show, you know, particularly a nicely constructed one. Yeah, yeah.

And you're doing exactly the same thing with the novel. Like you're planting little seeds all the way through. And then hopefully at the end, like you have a kind of various payoffs. And then, you know, you have the ambiguity at the end, which, hopefully we'll kickstart the next novel. Yes, yes, yes. With them, because you're in a play at the moment, and obviously some days you've got two performances like today,

so I imagine that writing's out. But can you sometimes, or if you were doing stand-up, write in the daytime and then perform in the evening? Or is it one thing or the other? Yeah, I'm not brilliant at that. Like, I did take a lot of time off to write the novel. I didn't do stand-up for a good six months, particularly when I was writing that.

In fact, I did a, like, I completed a stand-up tour at the end of March, which kind of started the previous autumn. And that was a tour that was actually scheduled to start a year before that. But then I was under pressure to write the novel. And I'm at that age now where I just don't want to split myself in two. You can't do it anymore. So I actually kicked the stand-up tour a year down the road, which was the best thing to do for everything. So I got the novel written and then I was able to devote my entire attention to the stand-up tour.

And I think I'm better like that. Are you a big reader as well of like other stuff? And can you do that when you're writing or do you find it like again? I can. I mean, I read a lot. And you mentioned Barbara Kingsolver earlier. Yeah. She's got a new one coming out.

She has been no one. I find, I find her books much scarier than a crime novel because she makes me feel so much because everything feels so real. Yeah. It's visceral, isn't it? But that's what you want in a novel. So you want the sense of place.

You want the great writing. But you also want to know, learn something I feel like. And, you know, she'll give you an app. absolute crash course on what's going on in contemporary America, you know, particularly the opioid kind of epidemic, you know, in Demon Copperhead. And this new one's about sort of body autonomy and abortion. It looks just why I'm scared of it. Not every novel, but like a lot of novels, like you do want to be moved or changed or transformed in some way. And I think novels do that as well as any other medium. They do, but sometimes, and maybe I'm worse since I've had kids,

actually. I'm sleep deprived and I've got small kids. You know, you're just much, I'm skinless. Yeah. And so there's an amazing book that I started reading but it's about domestic violence and it's like, yeah, I just can't spend any

I can't open that and go there. And I remember the demon copperhead I was pregnant and there was a scene where she couldn't get to her baby and she was breastfeeding and again, you're domestic violence

just a bit abusive and I'm like, yep, that's going in the freezer like talking in the freezer like that's right from place. Well, I find like, particularly with the crime novels if they're too formulaic,

I don't like them. Yeah, you can see it. Rain doesn't want them once it's, sees the pattern. It's like, I can see the buttons you're pressing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And if the characters aren't kind of, you know, if they don't have enough dimensions. And, crucially, if they're not funny. Yeah. I can't read anything that's not funny. Like, a novel for me, like even the best, like, so-called best novels, like, if they're not funny, they're rubbish.

Yeah. Have you ever read Udice? I have, twice. Yeah, Udice's is funny. Twice. It's hilarious. Well, you have to read twice because you, like, you have to read 100 times because you don't get most of it. In fact, I skip a lot of it. Which is fine. You do what you like. But even the early chapters are just really funny. Do you think the stand-up influenced the book?

And you said you wrote the book and then you moved the stand-up tour. Do you think the stand-up was strengthened by writing in that way? You're a very, very structurally good comic. You always have been. There are people like you, Alan Davies, like your shows, exactly as you say, you're never like, oh, and at the end, I put my funniest story. It's, as you said, that that's the story. I really do love a structure's stand-up, however.

I get quite sad. It makes the audience feel clever. But when a stand-up, you know when they say one joke and they go, thanks so much and you're like, what? That can't be the ending. I was waiting for you to like wrap up the theme. I get really cross if there's not like something that like parks you out of the room. And there wasn't a big closing number that gave you goose pimples as you wept

and had all of the musical motifs of everything else in the show. Sometimes they do like one joke. They just did a song. Yeah. I definitely think they feed off each other. Yeah. I mean, for sure, like when I was writing. In the novel, I was very, I was definitely using the skill set that you have as a stand-up.

Like definitely in terms of the planting the little landmines. And how does it work the other way around? I guess it's just that love of language, which I think I've always had and which I've always tried to imbue my stand-up with, like, just a delight in word and word play and, you know, a sentence generation. Which I think, you know, so I think it's all part of the same process. I think with stand-up, you're trying to distill everything down to its very essence, to its comedy essence. And you're kind of doing the opposite with a novel.

You're trying to be comprehensive and look at every single idea from multiple sides, you know, every facet of every idea. So, and you're trying to create this universe and you're trying to hold that universe in your head. So, I mean, it's different. And I suppose, I suppose what's brilliant is, I suppose, like, doing both. I mean, I mean, you know, some days you don't have the attention. You can write something during the day and you can perform it at night. Yes. You get the immediate gratification. It's such a joy. It's a dopamine hack.

Yeah, yeah. It is a little bit. And it suits people with short attention spans. And what happens is you get this intense focus just before it. And actually, sometimes you've had a great gig, some great creativity afterwards as you get the sort of neurochemical reward. Yeah. With writing, your brain doesn't have the dopamine. No, it's just endless, by yourself. helps your thing. It's, that's the bit that can really feel. Oh, God, yeah. It's such a lonely process and it's so different to stand up, as you said, because that's lonely, but there's this fucking room of people there with you. Also, you're just forced to do it. There's no, I mean,

they, but the people keep going, woo-hoo. You're on the poster. Yeah. You just have to go on at half-eight, whether you like it or not. But I find what, like, you know, when you're writing stand-up, you're, you know, it's incredibly frustrating because it's more like poetry, I think, stand-up, isn't it? And our aphorisms even, like you're trying to just condense everything. compact everything down to this little thing, this perfectly formed few sentences. And I think with novel writing, when you get into the flow state, which is amazing, and like it's the best part of writing, much better than when the book comes out or when, you know, whatever happens to the book or whose hands it gets into.

I mean, it's just when you get into that state, it's an amazing feeling. Like there are times when I go hours where I'm just, I can't keep up with my own thoughts. and it's just coming. And it's almost like I'm a channel for some other force. And it's a powerful thing. Some people feel that. I mean, with the artist's way, that's how, is it Julia Cameron? That's how she describes it as people, it's a godly thing that works through you.

Yeah. And that doesn't happen always. And like I, like, you know, like most people, I've had more failures than successes. It took me 25 years to write a second novel. I had a massive failure in between times. Did you? with a novel, yeah, which ended up in the bin and had to pay back the advance.

Which is really, really difficult, not just the financial aspect, but confidence-wise and a waste of time. Absolutely. And it took me 20 years to get the confidence back to try another novel. You know, even though I had great success with my first novel.

Yeah. Was that one, the middle one, should we say, was it a follow-on again? Or was it something completely different? It was, so I wrote the first novel Talk of the term back in 1998. Wow. And it was commercially and critically

a big success for me. which, you know, first novel comes out in a splurge in that flow state. I didn't even remember writing it, to be honest. Yeah, honestly. And it was just this stream of consciousness by this very damaged young man. So I was spoiled with the reaction and everything else. I was in a two-book deal at the time. And then I was under pressure to write the second book.

I was, you know, getting on ground as a stand-up at the time. And I was beginning to act as well a bit. And, you know, I was busy. And my head was being turned, left, right, center and I just wasn't able to settle down and on an idea for a start. And that calm you need for writing when you need it to be a bit peaceful. And I was having kids. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And everything else. And all those things. A million things going on my life. It was just that busy period, mid-30s kind of just going nuts. I was probably close to a breakdown, to be honest. And then you're trying to write this novel. And in the meantime, my editor changed. The new editor wasn't really into me or into what I was trying to do.

I didn't know what I was trying to do. Because on two sides, you didn't necessarily, weren't in the right place to write a second novel. You just couldn't actually have to. And so you have them and they have you. And neither of you have met through passion. Exactly. Exactly. And then, you know, the tone changes.

When you leave it for four months, five months, you go off to do a little mini tour or whatever or a TV job, an acting job or something. And then you come back to it and you kind of go, you know, you're not picking it up from the same place. But you're a different person as well. Someone says, like, whenever you should approach the desk every day. I read some of it because you're approaching it. You're different every day. But if you get that gap, then you almost don't recognize the person who wrote that.

You're like, who thought these things? Exactly. And I also knew shite from day one. You know, so when the time came, publisher said, listen, you know, it's rubbish. And I went, yes, it is. And then I ritually burnt it in a bin. Did you go outside? Did you go outside?

Yeah, you're checking. Yes. They ruined the new house. Yeah, yeah. You just had the kids. dance. So you go outside and you put it in the bin. I put it in the bin and I set it on fire and I danced practically around the fire.

Did that feel, you felt better? Oh, I felt a million times better. Relief, just sheer relief. It's gone. It's gone. Sheer liberation. And it was fantastic. But as a result, I said, okay, well, that was sobering.

And until, I didn't say I'm never going to write again. I said, until I have a very good idea that I can absolutely commit to and finish. Because I didn't finish that novel. I never finished it really. I'm not going to write again. And then that took me about 20 years. And then suddenly I thought, okay, I think I have an idea. And that was my second novel then, which was written around five years ago.

Wow. It's almost like you needed life to, you know, that wave to get you there to a time where things were a bit quieter and like just karma. Your kids are older. But it raises an interesting question. Like, you know, how many novels is there in a person? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And how much life do you have to live? to that that's where you store up

that's where your brain is constantly the well the well is full being really busy workwise is amazing and a privilege and success is fantastic but it really depletes all the batteries of being in the world in any other way apart from bookcue signings premieres or on stage the observation as well I think like when you're writing something and again I think the first thing you write often does

you know just like appear but when you're when you're writing you're kind of in that observant stage. And then when you're, like you said, when you're being successful, you're not observant, you're participating in everything. So you're not getting that moment where you're like, oh, he's interesting. That's interesting. You're just so in life that I think you need, like you said, you need time to be away from it.

I think the second creation, whether that's album, Edinburgh show. It is the harder one because the first one you make with no awareness of audience. Yeah, you don't know what you're doing. It's just everything you've got to say. And no expectation. Yeah, nothing. And who cares about success. You've got this thing and you need to say.

Oh my God, that's the purest reason to make anything. It's cake painting. It's something like that. Critically, it's been told, oh, he's a good writer. I think that's harder than being told you. So hard. So hard. Because if everyone hates you, you have this brilliant place to prove them wrong with your next one.

Okay, I've got my feedback, all my one-star reviews. They hated it for this, isn't that. Well, you can get better. You can be like, right, I'll get better. And you have the anger. I think there's quite a dynamic, I'll prove you wrong or I'll be better or look at me now. Fire, the fire. Yeah.

Which you can't, I think it's really hard to get if everyone thinks you're delightful. Yeah. You're really are. This is going to sound patronising a proper writer and separate from all of your other things. The more you talk about it, that's what's really clear. Because there are some people, and again, I don't mean to denigrate anyone, and obviously I'm not going to name them. There are people who are famous in the public eye.

We'll put it on the Patreon. And they still work hard. You know, writing a book is still a slog. Yeah, yeah. But it's not because they love literature so much. And there's a story they were burning to tell. It's almost much. Yeah, yeah.

And also some people love reading those books. So it isn't really. People should just read anything. Well, I agree. And then, you know, when it comes to this, third novel. So people could say like, oh, you're writing cozy crime. You're just trying to cash in on the Richard Osmond phenomenon. And I would challenge that. Because for me, like, writing a novel is massive personal investment. You are exposing your soul on the page, as we do in stand-up as well.

I think, like, this novel is actually my most personal in terms of, which is incredible thing to say, because it's so fluffy and funny and, you know, romantic or whatever. And, and, you know, romantic or whatever. It's like you reveal so much more of yourself in fiction than you do a memoir. I was being asked to write a memoir, which the last thing I would do as a private person. But I think what you can do with a character like this character, Finn O'Leary, the Celebrity Gardner, you've got this degree of separation. You've also got plausible deniability. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I think that's what we do in writing fiction. You are, you know, it's your worldview. perspective, it's your, you know, it's your, like, concerns, it's your take on everything, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. And it's all there in the novel. You pour it into the novel. Now, obviously, you, you try and edit it and, you know, you don't want to bore people to death. But, you know, you do put an awful lot of yourself into it. So, in a sense, I wouldn't say, that's my memoir. It's cozy crime. But it's more honest, because a memoir, even the fantastic ones, you can't really distill down who you are as a narrative because people contain multitudes.

So it makes much more sense what you're saying that actually fractions of a person in lots of different characters of different genders and different ages is much a much truer representation of who a person actually is because it's never one person, is it? As you say, as you said earlier, Carrie had, we're different. You know, that Herman Heston of a river that every time you step into it, it's different, a different composition. Well, I love that. I love that.

It's like, that's a true autobiography. There are managers of fictional characters in a place that doesn't exist. Exactly. But that's more revealing. Yeah, yeah. Ardell, thank you so much. The book is called a Plot to Die For. It's brilliant.

And what good news that you can read this one? There's another one already coming. He's already on it, okay? So you can find out more about Abbeford. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you. Real pleasure. Thank you for listening to The Weirdo's Book Club.

A Plot to Die For is out now. And sign up to our Patreon for the chance to win Assigned Cocker. And we have another show coming up at the Cheltenham Literature Festival, October 15th. My new kids' book is available for pre-order Lydia Marmalade and the Christmas Adventure, if you like your kids' regency themed and fun. And all of my gigs are listed on my website. I've got gigs coming up to Christmas. You can find it on Sarah Pasco.com.

You can find out all about the upcoming books we're going to be discussing this series on our Instagram at Sarah and Carriad's Weirdo's Book Club. And please join us on Patreon for lots more weird and wonderful stuff. Thank you for reading those. like reading with you.