Sara & Cariad's Weirdos Book Club - Beyond Black by Hilary Mantel with Mike Wozniak

Episode Date: January 4, 2024

This week's book guest is Beyond Black by Hilary Mantel.Sara and Cariad are joined by critically lauded comedian and actor Mike Wozniak to discuss touring, mediums, the occult, and Princess Diana. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you!Trigger warning: In this episode we discuss murder, child abuse, eating disorders and abortion.Beyond Black by Hilary Mantel is available to buy here or on Apple Books here.Listen to Mike's podcast Three Bean Salad hereTicket for the live show on Thu 25 Jan at Foyles, Tottenham Court Road are available to buy here.Sara’s debut novel Weirdo is published by Faber & Faber and is available to buy here.Cariad’s book You Are Not Alone is published by Bloomsbury and is available to buy here.Follow Sara & Cariad’s Weirdos Book Club on Instagram @saraandcariadsweirdosbookclub and Twitter @weirdosbookclub Recorded and edited by Naomi Parnell for Plosive.Artwork by Welcome Studio.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Sarah Pasco. Hello, I'm Carriad Lloyd. And we're weird about books. We love to read. We read too much. We talk too much. About the too much that we've read. Which is why we've created the Weirdo's Book Club.

Join us. A space for the lonely outsider to feel accepted and appreciated. A place for the person who'd love to be in a real book club, but doesn't like wine or nibbles. Or being around other people. Is that you? Join us. Check out our Instagram at Sarah and Carriad's Weirdo's Book Club for the upcoming books we're going to be discussing. You can read along and share your opinions.

Or just skulk around in your raincoat like the weirdo you are. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you. This week's book guest is Beyond Black by Hilary Mantel. What's it about? It's about a psychic called Alison who's haunted by spirit guides and her assistant Colette as they navigate life on the road in 1997 suburban England. What qualifies it for the Weirdo's Book Club?

Well, most of the characters are horrible ghosts. In this episode, we discussed touring, mediums, the occult and Princess Diana. And joining us this week is Mike Wozniak. Mike is a critically lauded comedian and actor. Catch him live if you can or listen to the very, very funny three bean salad podcast. Trigger warning, this episode contains mention of murder, child abuse, eating disorders and abortion. Hi, Mike. Hello.

Hi, Mike. We're really excited to talk to you and see you. I'm excited to talk to you. see you. But not about the chatting. Well, this is the most sort of trepidations I've been about doing a podcast, I think. Why? Are you intimidated? Do they feel like an exam? Are you scared of us? Correct me, if I'm wrong, if I'm wrong, I think you've both got English literature

degrees. Correct. The same one. Right. Yeah, sort of Bright and Sussex type of business. Yeah. You've been listening over the past 15 years. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's gone in. I don't have that. The last time I've formally studied. Oh, you've got a little medical degree. Yeah, just a tiny medical degree. We didn't cover contemporary fiction. Did they not? That's the problem with the NHS. They need to cover this stuff. They need to. I do think I've formally

studied literature since GCSE. But you are very clever. I pretend to be clever. You've got clever sounding voice and a mustache. I know, but that's it, but that's the middle-aged man's trick, isn't it? Most readers wouldn't have official qualifications in reading, but you wouldn't think,

oh, that precludes how they feel about a book or their thoughts about a book. Oh, no, that's true. I'd agree with that. But whether or not anyone... Thank you for agreeing it, Mr. Dr. Wighton. Whether or not anyone necessarily wants me to add my tuppence in. We want your tuppence. Okay, but even GCSE level, you see, my sister.

Yeah. Is she more the English-y side? Well, she also did English literature at university. Right. Could we book her for a different episode? Yes. So she, twin sister also meant that basically I, as a teenager, just copied her homework. So even at the age of 13, I wasn't engaging fully in the process.

Okay. So I've not developed my... How near does she live? Can she get here a couple minutes? Yeah, yeah, she's up the rose. Okay, okay. So she... I think this is what's good about adulthood.

Because what you've just confessed is that you were able to sort of, you know, like a goose, fly behind someone. Yeah. In the slipstream of your sister's intelligence. Exactly. Whereas now it's time to flourish by yourself. Now it's time for you to be open

and realize that everything you've got to say is valid and people do care. Yeah. We care. If you want to suddenly... The solo goose gets cooked, as they said. The worm. The worm. I'm misremembering it.

Solo goose gets the worm. Well done, goose. Happy Christmas. Goose to Waterstones. Buy something they like the look of. Learns a bit about themselves. Maybe is able to buy it just off points. Yeah.

But paperback, not hard back, because he's got wings. Yeah, yeah. Or tiny goose feet. Also, if you, at any point, you want to just break out into, like, medical lingo to make yourself feel confident again. Oh, right. And then have me and Sarah agree, like, oh, we don't know what you're talking about. So, like, the balance is restored.

also I think there's probably been advances in medicine since you were practicing, isn't there? I certainly hope so. Yeah. It's been a while. No more leeches. Not anymore. It's leech it or chop it off. That's why I couldn't remember.

They shouldn't let go goooses become doctors. No. Goosees? Let's go goooses. Let's try and bring that back. I would love to start Mike by asking Carrie out a question, which is why did you pick this book for us to read? Well, that's a bit of a tricksy question. I didn't quite pick it.

It was on our list of books. So we have a list of books that we think would be good. But you put it on our list? No, I offered Mike three. Oh, no, I mean you would put it on our list originally. Oh, originally, just because Hillary Mantel. We love Hillary Mantel. We fucking love Hillary Mantel.

Yeah. But you're not going to give someone Wolf Hall for this podcast. That's harsh. And you're not going to give them place a greater safety. We would, which is the first Mantel I read. And I think still probably my favourite. And that is a hefty, hefty type. It's about the French Revolution.

I've not read that one. It's huge. It would be cruel. And so in my memory, Beyond Black, was the lighter of her. Oh, I see. So it was a length thing. I was like, oh, it's a bit lighter. This is a mental novella.

Yeah. And also I thought lots of people haven't read this one or haven't, aren't familiar with it because they're mostly familiar with the Wolf Hall trilogy. She won the Booker Prize. She was like the John Kearns of Literature. Yeah, she kept winning. She said that. She referred to herself as the John Kearns of Literature.

This was also long listed for the Book of Prize. Everything she touches turns to gold. So I actually gave Mike a list of three, and I something about this, I thought, oh yeah, Mantel and the psychickness. I don't know. I thought, well, I think Mike would like that. So that's what? I can't remember what the other two were now, but I wasn't instantly drawn to this one. Oh, well, that's good.

Have you ever read any Mantel before? Only Wolf Hall, that's it. What is your first response? The very, very first impression. Yeah. Well, to be completely honest, the very first opening, the sort of prologue bit reminded me, it sounds. a bit narcissistic reminded me of starting stand-up. Oh, yeah, going to small towns.

It was quite visceral. And not just small towns, but the fact that she, Alison, focuses around these sort of dormitory towns around London. That's such a good comparison. It's kind of phase 1B of stand-up. So phase one, you're doing these, properly in the middle of a huge city, doing a tiny little open-mic thing.

And then all of a sudden there's this opportunity, you could do the middle spot for 20 quid in fleet. You know, and you'd go there, but it would be, there'd also be a quiz going on on the same night in the pub in Fleet. You'd be performing on the sort of space between the Strongbow and the extra cold. Guinness, there's a fruit machine that's still on.

The venue manager comes in and says to you, nice to have a woman. I don't know how they'll like it, but nice to have one. Exactly. Because they say that to you, Mike. Exactly, I'm sick and tired of that. All that's going on. And you know that Fleet has definitely got a serviceable art centre.

There must be one. So why are you here? That's not where the gig is. So it's that. We should say Alison is. is a psychic medium. Yes. And that's what she's doing.

She's going around doing, um, get psychic. Are we assuming the listeners might not have read the, we ask, because not everybody, everyone has a time, as you know,

to read all the books. Okay. What we hope is that people listen to think, oh, I would like to read that. Okay. But I'm just telling them, so why it's like stand up

because she is also on a circuit doing psychic shows. I love, and nervous before she goes out. I mean, looking at the audience to think, you know, who are they? Yeah, the trade,

if they're called. Although one thing, yes. I was troubled. about, I'll just be honest. I found a lot of this book troubling on a reread. Oh, on a reread so many years later.

Yes, there was a few things that definitely come up. The travel card I found in there was 2010. It came out in 2005, yes. I think I must have read it in 2010 and didn't remember a single word. Right. She's scary, isn't it? I tell you, I remembered 100% the opening

because it's set in Potter's Bar, which is where I went to school. And she describes Potter's Bar as a kind of hellhole. And I clapped immediately. I was like, yeah, because starting, the way she describes Potter's Bar is, yeah, 4 o'clock, light sinking over the orbital road, tea time in Enfield, night falling on Potter's Bar. It makes it. More abandoned fridges than people on the streets. I thought she was very judgmental of the people of Britain.

Fair plate to Potter's Bar personally. I think she did well on that. Really? Yeah. There were times where I couldn't, you know with an author where you think, do you really think that? Or does your narrator or your character think that? Yeah, does Alison think that? Does Hillary think it?

Yes. And there were several things where I was like, it may be really fascinated about Hillary and Mantel going, oh, you really do hate the common man and woman. I know what you mean. Yeah. I didn't know much about her background, though, her early life. So I didn't know if she had a privileged upbringing.

It's a bit of a mix, actually. Yeah. And she had quite difficult childhood, I think, equally. she had her own what she thinks was sort of psychic experiences. She believed in ghosts. And at the back of the book, there's a short interview of her in my one, and it says, she says, the good thing about being a writer is you take your bad experience

and make them pay. Oh, wow. Yeah, which may be, and obviously there's lots and lots of bad experiences in this book. And again, it makes you think, oh gosh. Yeah, I sort of hope it isn't autobiographical. Yes, I really hope that. Really deeply. Yeah, because Alison is, I think Alison,

so Alison is a genuine psychic in this. story in that she really can speak to spirits, but her spirits are horrible, horrible, foul fiends, she calls them, who are the old men who have died, but essentially what we discover used to hang around to her mother who was a prostitute and hang out of the house with her and potentially molested her as well. But this is all dealt with the very, like, not, you know what I mean? It's not in that kind of, like, that doesn't come out, that takes ages to come out.

It's drip fed, isn't it? It's drip fed and even it's. And even it's never confirmed, Allison can't remember. So there's a lot of stuff about memory and struggling to like, what does it mean with the past and the past, literally haunting you. And also it's important to flag it is a comedy. Yeah. Because so it's a very black, dark comedy where there are some incredible jokes. Well, yes, the background is horrific.

Yeah. And I think every single trigger warning. Yeah. Trigger warning. But like you, like you, I didn't remember. but any of that being there. Well, I think I enjoyed it the first time. I think it's a novel that we've moved into a different time.

So in 2005, I would have read this very differently to now. I think young people are psychopathic or much less empathetic. That's what I think it is. I think in my 20s I read loads of stuff where awful things happened and none of it touched me. And now I'm... I think you just don't quite grasp it. Like I didn't quite grasp how awful her Alison's childhood was. I was rereading it.

That there's a bit, there's a... So we should say she gets an assistant called Collette. who is very unsympathetic to everybody, and their relationship is basically the core of the book. But when they do talk about what happened to Alison, Colette kind of makes a joke and is like, your mum had you molested and she sounds like she sold tickets to it. And then they start talking about something else.

She's another abuser, basically. She does become that way, doesn't she? Did you like Colette to begin with, Mike? I was suspicious of Colette. You're definitely meant to be, aren't you? To begin with. There was this odd thing where, in the opening, the first time you meet Colette,

when they're quite well established in their relationship. Colette is already physically disgusted by Alison's physical appearance. Allison is much bigger than Colette. Colette is described as, you know, bird-like and skinny. And Allison is much bigger, and there's a line that Allison says she's a size 20, and Colette's like you're a size 26, and you are embarrassed about it.

And the weight is a huge issue with both of them. Yeah, so she can be scathing. And she's also openly skeptical about the whole thing they're doing, even though at no point would Alison ever admit there's anything to be skeptical about, which would sort of chip away at a person a fair bit. And there's also this thing, which again has got sort of showbiz parallel, where... Yeah, because she's kind of a manager.

She's Alice's manager. She's sort of infantilised a little bit by her. Even if Alison suggests a drink in the opening... She says, no, no, what about this drink? don't have a tea or a coffee, have a G&T or whatever. There's the little bits of control. Do you have someone that goes on tour with you? That always chooses my drinks.

Because it's lovely to have someone to take that response with it. I once did a support for Catherine Ryan when she played Colchester because then my family could get in for free. And so it all worked out lovely. And when we got in the car back to London, we all had a can of gin and tonic next to us in the car. Oh, nice. And I was like, oh, this is how you live, Catherine Ryan.

Isn't it? Little can of Marks and Spencer. You don't even have to think, do I want a gin and tonic. Just drink it. Just drink it. You've got one. Don't think about what happened. And you can get to, I mean, I go solo,

partly because I think I will just completely lose my marbles otherwise. But you can't be very easy as a performer to just let everyone sort of do everything for you, guide you here and there, tell you what you're doing, when. As you become more successful, there's more people. These things can be, skills can be stripped away, I think. Yeah. Who can you want to take that from you? They have a really interesting relationship in that.

Coerce of control is at play, controls her food, is constantly at her about her weight. But also, Alison, as you said, lets her sometimes enjoys it. And my question for everyone was like, what is changed at the end of this book? Because they are together for seven years and it becomes extremely destructive. And I sort of feel like Alison gets something from this relationship, but, you know, not really a spoiler, but like her life changes. She kind of changes how she is a psychic.

But Colette seems to come into her life, spend seven years telling her she's a piece of shit, and then goes back to her life. At the beginning, I thought Colette was fantastic because she was so organised. Yeah, she's really skilled. She does allow, you know, at the beginning it seemed like she was an enabler to Alison, and then it became abusive. I don't think she was a very well-rounded character. I didn't think she was necessarily real because her voice at their end just seemed to be to criticise Alison.

It didn't seem like there was a real person there. This is what I find interesting is that, that you say, the reason they get on is Colette comes in and basically sort Alison, you know, she can't book her gigs, she can't do her email, she can't do her taxes. She's not monetising her work properly. She's not doing her fat return. Having all of that stuff taken away for you. So Collette comes in, sorts it all out and there's a bit where they're very happy and they buy a house together. Well, Alison's very lonely. So she's sort of buying Collette. She sort of wants company. Yeah. And a live person. But this is what's into, I think Colette is very. is very critical and horrible to her, sort of in this world.

So you can hear Colette being horrible. But Allison is actually very manipulative and kind of uses Colette to get, at the end, I was like, Alison has benefited from this relationship. And the whole time, there's lots of Alison not saying things to Collet, but making decisions about Collette. Does that make sense? That Colette will be like, oh, you're disgusting, you're overweight, I hate you. And Alison won't say anything, but she'll be like, I sort of don't need you anymore.

And I've kind of got what I need. And then they kind of break up. And at the end of it, I was like, I found Colette really believable, but I was, I was frustrated that she just went back to her, she went back to Gavin, awful Gavin. So do you think Alison, because this is, I think Alison has more power than she lets on. That's interesting.

Okay, so, because that, okay. So Alison dies at the end. What? Do you think she died at the end? I didn't, no. Do you think she died at the end? No, I think she dies at the end. Where do you say that?

When the lorry overtakes them and there's like, it's a bleak, but she dies on the, on the, on the, on the, in the car happy with two ghosts. I didn't get that. I don't think she does. She puts her foot down to overtake in the fast lane a massive truck and she's half hidden by the spray. Then it stops.

Oh, okay. I think she dies. Yeah, maybe you're right. I've just realised one of my favourite things is someone revealing to me that someone was dead at the end of the same thing. It's such a sweet move. I think I'm going to start doing it willy-nilly. Yeah.

Yeah. For all kinds of stuff. If it's in the Barbie movie, oh, it's sad she was dead all along, isn't it? I didn't get that. But now you say it, I think you're right. I think there are so much in this book, which is oblique, if that's the right word,

opaque. She tells you mystery, and I think this moment is very similar. So it's a happy ending, but is a happy ending of her passing over. Yes, but that's what I mean is Alison gets what she wants at the end. And I don't think...

Death with cake? Yeah, and like she gets nice ghosts. She gets rid of her fiends, these horrible men that have haunted her, life. She gets the old lady ghosts. And she gets her memories, doesn't she? She gets her memories and she discovers what happened and she sort of processes it. But I feel like

Alison, that character really moves and yet I feel like Colette doesn't and that's sort of, I feel like Hillary's saying that's kind of like what's her judgment on a woman like that? Yeah. Actually, you never want anything and so you end up going back to where you started.

Yeah, but that's why I found it real because I was like, there's people in life that want to change and people that don't and Colette. doesn't want to be changed. Don't do the work, as Lou Sanders would say. Don't do the work. Don't do the work. So do you think Alison got rid of Colette in the end?

Because she is very passive in the relationship. I think that she is passive, but I think by the end. Like a breakup when someone knows that they want to break up. Yeah. And they don't break up by saying, I think, we're having problems. They break up by continuing the habits that are irritating the other person. So that they leave. Yeah.

She becomes, she does kick it over to this, she crosses the line with Colette, doesn't she? And becomes, like, it is unbearable. And then when she takes in that, the homeless guy, all of that, she knows is, knowing full well that Calais will not be able to handle that. And she also is watching Colette all the time. Like when she sees her with Gavin and the phone calls, she, you know, she says, she can read read her mind. I think Alison knew she needed Colette, Collette came, sorted her life out, helped her.

and then she realised, oh, Colette's not going to get rid of Morris. I have to get rid of Morris. And then I think, yeah, I think Alison has more power than she lets on. But I still think Colette is quite a horrible character. To bring it back to Alison's size, which is what Colette keeps going on about obsessively. And she starves her at the end and isn't letting her, she's controlling her food, you know.

That was something again where I wondered what Hillary, the human being writing this felt about. And this felt so fatphobic. It felt there was so much hatred. And I know it was via a character and characters. Many characters referred to her as a fat girl or the fat woman. Yeah, it comes up all the time. And there were lots of, and I'm going to say it's in vertic commas, jokes about her weight and all you won't need to eat that or not for you, that kind of thing.

And I didn't know where she sat with it, whether she was really enjoying it as someone who has had people say horrible things to her. perhaps or been bullied at school or something. I assumed it was cathartic. I don't know. Really? That's why I'd hope it was. Yeah, I hoped.

I hope it was. That was the idea that she's... A bit like a comic. Making it pay. Being like, I'm going to make the joke before you do. Yeah. And there's two ways of that. There's the way where you go, ah, ha, ha, ha, we're laughing because you actually really

love yourself and are comfortable and are showing how stupid it is to judge someone on something like their size. And then there's the other kind that I remember watching a new comic talking about chubby chasers. And it was really unconsted. uncomfortable because she was a really attractive young woman saying like the only men I can get are called if you had a chubby chasers and you're like this is all this is all horrible yeah because what you're picking up on is low self-esteem as someone who isn't in that you know yeah actually is like yeah I think other people think they're fat so they're saying it first is different to I think reading anything in

2023 that isn't from like the last three years is really like your brain has to work hard because so much has changed since 2005 what I found really interesting was as Alison's description of she needs that weight because of the spirits. So because she has this, like, they're so horrific. And she describes it as, like, I have to house so many people. My flesh is so capacious. I am a settlement, a place of safety, a bomb-proof shelter. Boom, she said softly.

And I found that description of, like, her emotional connection to it. Really fascinating. Well, also, you know, fat is a feminist issue by Susie Orbach. And one of the things that she talks about a lot is fat as protection from the world people who have had upsetting childhoods or certain things that there's literally an insulation yeah and that's what are you from other people and to push other people away to give you more room from other people but the fact that because she gets so many these spirits overtake her and like she speaks in different voices and she can't control

them so Mike I was going to ask you though about you know the occult the other side in general have you ever been to a psychic or been interested I'm interested I've never been I'm interested I yeah I wouldn't I wouldn't say that your aura doesn't doesn't have much to tell. No, exactly. I'm just a sort of collect-based sort of, just a cipher of nothing. I'm intrigued by it. I love all that stuff.

I've never, I've never, I've never been at a saun. So would you be easily persuaded to go? If someone said, oh, I'm going to, you know, going to a reading. Oh, yeah, I'd be bang up again just out of curiosity. And more so after reading this book, just to explore the scene. And I'm open to the idea that there's, there are things going on that we don't quite understand. but that might even just be psychological, you know, whatever it might be. Absolutely.

Because it's so huge, people's experiences of the paranormal. I don't necessarily believe that there are spectral things out there, but I think we haven't quite understood what's happening in the brain. But also a lot of the people who do this kind of job, what they're reading is the person in front of them very well. And saying it's coming from the other side. Which Alison is able to do a bit as well, isn't she? Yeah, she's good at the trade, like standing on stage.

Not much is happening or if she's being intruded by the wrong kind of... Yes. I love that she has ghosts to the hoaxes. Yes, yeah, yeah. Or she says, like, impersonators. They're like an Elvis impersonator here. When they get on the other side, they stay hassling you being an Elvis impersonator. Yeah.

And you're like, I know you're fake. Yeah. I think her... It's a lovely idea. The way Hillary Mantel describes the spirit world. And the way she describes the dead is of, like, you can't trust them. Like, they don't know what they're saying. They don't, so they don't always know they.

They're unreliable. They're unreliable narrators. They're so interesting. They're legion as well. I think they even put the numbers in somewhere. One of the mediums says, they outnumber us 30 to 1. Yeah.

And then she says, what does it look like on the other side? It's like, older shot. Yeah, yeah. What did we think of the Princess Diana stuff? I love that stuff. In the book, Diana dies, it's set in 1997. Diana dies,

and all the psychics feel the effect greatly. Obviously, Hilary Mantel was also famous. She's written lots of that famous essay about the royal family and Kate Middleton. And you definitely get her sense of... I don't think she was a big fan of, if not Princess Diana herself, the outpouring for Princess Diana. That was another moment where I thought the author's opinion here is coming through. Did you think that?

Because for me, it felt more like a reflection of it. And there was definitely... I know she definitely wasn't like pro everybody. But it just felt like an honest reflection of what people. Britain was like at that point to me. I didn't see a hero her opinion as much as I felt like, yeah, that's what it was like. There was this huge, insane outpouring. And it's about...

I think I felt like she found it ghoulish. Because it was, I think, one of the elements I really loved that not only the medium, all the sensitive casts, they feel it themselves, but they then have this huge amount of work because everyone, all of their clans. But it's so much work, it's not as if no one's talking about boom time. It's not like, brilliant, we're printing money here, we're going to be able to, afford to go off on a package or a little bit of me or whatever it is. They're exhausted.

They can't wait for it to settle down. They're done in. But she keeps making the point that everyone who wants to talk about Princess Diana is actually talking about themselves. Yeah, yeah. The reason they thought she represented them and was like them. And my dad, not just about Princess Diana, but many things, it's the kind of person that if you're crying at the news,

would walk in and go, you're crying for yourself, you know. You cried for yourself And Princess Diana, of course, was a big... Everyone's crying for themselves. Everyone was crying for themselves, yeah. And that's what Hidim and Mantel was saying in a more sophisticated way. Yeah.

About the representation of Diana. I didn't mind that. I didn't mind that. Did you feel like it was too much Mantel's opinion? I thought it was a little spiteful. But again, I don't know if it's her opinion or if it's the characters. There were lots and lots of points where...

There was loads of racist language. Oh, we should talk about that. So much. And, you know, and there's a variety. of racism, disabledist language, all these kind of things. The word ethnics is used to love by central characters. Does she think this is a true representation of how certain people speak? I was surprised at quite how racist Alison and Collette were in that kind of,

this is a, I don't mean this, but like that liked racism of just like, oh, I just referring to everyone as other. I wanted to say lazy racism. Yeah, she says I don't do foreign. Yeah, and that's the thing. So with the Princess Diana thing was the way they spoke about Dodis. So there was even racism in those areas And that's why it felt spiteful

It felt like the representation of her was It's a bit dim and then she forgets her son's names Yes Yeah yeah yeah That was that was really weird So because she was a real person This is why I say I felt troubled with it It reminded me of watching a comic

I know because Hilary Mattel was a really really really funny writer Brilliant yeah Watching a comic not knowing do you mean that or not? Yeah, yeah. I don't mind me of going, are you in control of this

and you're actually really, you know, agitating me in and showing me something or not, and she doesn't ever tell you because it's a novel. She doesn't go. That's true. Because it is a good illustration of commie belt. Yeah, yeah.

At that time, there would have been lots of that language and lots of, I mean, as a historical document for turn of the millennium, there would have been a lot of that. Yeah, you go to a friend's house after school and you have to listen to their dad using a certain language. That's what you reminds me of.

That uncomfortableness. I can't make you stop. Yeah, yeah. I think my issue is that, and I say this as someone who tours, is that it's very easy to do a two-dimensional. These people are all like that. Oh, yeah, yeah. And it's a kind of othering where actually everyone, you know,

cares about their family, worry, has anxieties about the dog's been limping. Everyone has this spectrum of human emotion, and it's really easy to go, they just care about this, or they're just this thing that's, And a lot of comedy does it. We reduce people so we can make jokes about which is what this book does. But it's interesting because I totally agree with you. And the new build, the couple that live next door are like from a sitcom, you know,

like they're just this awful, like who hate their kids and their kids are screaming and they're so nosy and they're really... They assume they're lesbians because they're two women living together. And, you know, but what's so interesting about Mantel is she can create characters that are so complex and so subtle. and not that, but then she does also do that. So I know I completely agree with you, but she, and I think Wolf Hall, if you've read any of those, like the characters there are a masterclass

in like subtlety and nuance and people not always being what they say they are. She allows herself a sketch, doesn't she? Yeah. Like if she's got a salesperson. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, the person who sells them the house. The house and then the shed, there's another one.

There's like, oh, yeah, the shed kind. They're both like little bits of satire into sales. It's the only industry there is, because it's a dormitory town, there's nothing. Yeah, there's nothing else. The only people who work there are the people who are selling you stuff you don't want or. I think she is fair definitely snobby about it. I definitely picked up the snobbiness.

I think this is why I found it troubling. Yeah. It's because it's a comedy book about really, really dark things. Yeah. And comedy is flippant and comedy does is sketches. And so, but then the heavy side of it, I think it's probably where I am in my actual life. I couldn't help taking certain stuff literally. Or like wanting her to take it. And I wanted to sort of go, come on, don't just drop in some child abuse.

Yeah, I know what you mean. Like I found, like I said, when it sort of revealed what's happened to Alison, and Colette is so offhand about it, I had to go back and reread that because I was like, have I just, did I miss something? Because before that, it's all very shadowy and vague of like what happened with these men and her mom and there was money and she saw something in the back of the garden, but we don't know what she saw. And then when it starts getting nailed down a bit, you're like, what the fuck? But even quite early on, there's a dog attack.

Yeah. And then the dog is attacked in turn. Well, I think also that she's using it as well for the character of Alison, that Alison is trying to better herself. And Alison is trying to drag. And she says, doesn't she, to collect? Like, you don't understand. I'm the house that had the bathtub in the front garden.

And it was there my whole life. Like, that's where I'm from. I'm from nothing. What I liked about it, what reminded me of my side of the family. The idea that when trauma comes in, it's everything's treated as a joke. Yes. And that felt very real to me. even though I know what you mean about being snobbish

it felt very real that it's just like oh well worse things happen at sea like there you go which is what Colette's attitude is to her yourself yeah it's just like but nobody Alison doesn't like you said that feeling of wanting

Alison to take what happened to her seriously she can't because no one does Colette doesn't her mum doesn't I didn't need Alison to do it and he did the writer but I feel like Hillary is being led by Alison do you know what I mean I feel like Alison Alison doesn't take it seriously so it would be very hard

for Hilary to then come in and moralise Hilary definitely wrote the book she intended to write. I think reading it now, newly postpartum, is why I'm just taking everything too literally. Everything's too emotional. And so someone being flippant about something involving a child, I just cannot. Yeah.

That's why I think it didn't bother me the first time around. I just read it as a, you know, hilarious black comedy. But I know what you mean. I think Hillary is allowing Alison to have such a strong voice that Alison can't look at it. And so nobody looks at it. And that's the thing, like, it takes Alison to the end of the book to even remember what actually happened to her.

And even, you know, she's, I sort of get an impression. She's 40s, and she still, like, Colette's one of the first people to be like, what happened? She's like, oh, I don't know. Like, oh, yeah, my childhood. Which nowadays, we talk about so much, like, our childhood is how we're affected. But she's definitely that generation, it's like, oh, yes, gosh, it was really awful. And there was all these criminals and was attacked by a dog anyway.

Like, Alison, no one's ever looked at Alison's. Which Collette is very impatient about, doesn't want to, you know, which we've all come across, people are very uncomfortable as soon as that starts. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but that doesn't change what we have to do now. Yeah. We have to work out which junction we're going to take on.

Yeah. Carrette, have you ever been to a psychic? Yes, I have. Yeah, in Brighton a couple of times, obviously, living in Brighton. As in for reading or a show. I've had a tarot. Oh, and I haven't been to a show show, no. I had a tarot, which was, it was pretty much.

on the bright and front and it was it was a bit I felt can't you remember any of the cards um I can't remember the cards say you're going to have a book podcast one day yeah what they did say and I said what's podcast no he said I knew it was bullshit because he was like oh you're going to marry your husband will not be you'll be much clever than your husband but he won't know true actually true but um and he said that's true of every woman that's yeah that's the old trick isn't it yeah that's like Alison with the middle

woman who she says, oh, you're on the go- You're a real goer, yes. Helping other people. You never stopped, do you? You never sit down. Yeah, all your friends say, how'd you do it? Someone furiously nodding. Yeah, and I, do you remember, were you there when we did that?

I had to do, like, we had to do like an interactive theatre thing, and I played a psychic. But you really looked like a psychic and people took you seriously. People took me seriously. So I pretended to be a fortune teller, a palm reader. And just with a headscarf on, you absolutely believe she is one. And I just like to. it's offensive how I dressed. I put big hoop earrings on and I put scarf on my head.

And I would not dress like that now, but it was the year 2000 and things were different then. And it was like people going into a theatre and me and Vanessa were like entertainment before they went in and I was pretending to be a palm reader. I thought it was really obvious. Is there an accent or would you rather not say? I'd rather not say.

I'd rather not discuss it, Mike. I thought it'd be really obvious that I was not a palm reader. But people took me immediately seriously. and within about 10 minutes People see what they want to see Within about 10 minutes I worked out how to make some Like what to say to people

So just by looking at someone And particularly middle age men I'd grab their hand And I'd say You work too hard You work too hard Your children They never see you

And they would look at me The blood would drain from their face And they would go I'm underappreciated Yeah And I thought oh shit Everyone's believing me And again to women

Just say you're underappreciated And I got a bit like too into it and then my boyfriend now husband had to say you've gone mad you're changing lives no he said you think you actually can do this and you're gifted and you can't and you've lost your mind what you're proving is how much of it you know i'd like to apologize to all the communities i'm offended the psychology it was so easy it was giving yourself instant confirmation bias yeah so the rest of it so in the year 2000 i went to a psychic who and what's interesting is i still have it on tape Do you?

And I didn't understand at the time what she was saying to me, but she'd done a reading of me that I didn't identify because I didn't know. That's how I was seen. So this is quite interesting. Okay. Yeah, what did they say? So the fact is I didn't have as much money as my friends, and I didn't have money for clothes and things.

I think I'd just started at the Millennium Dome. I'd moved out of home. I was living by myself in Leighton Stone. And so the reading she did was, oh, this is the friend who doesn't have as much money as the other ones because they all still lived at home. So my reading is about how I was jealous of my friends and I don't have what they have. And I was sitting there thinking,

this is not me at all. But she was just judging, basically. And it's only because I still had it listened to it years later that I realized, oh, that's what she was saying to me. And it was all about, like, you will have money in the future. Well, she wasn't wrong. It wasn't wrong. But so she picked a thing about me.

And then went with it. That's the one in the friendship room who doesn't have, like, labeled, clothes or something. Yeah, yeah. But it actually wasn't a thing that bothered me at all. You should have said you're fraud. No, I just, but that's, that's why I realize like, oh, of course. Yeah, it's easy to pick things. Yeah. But that's why I love this book. Because what I do love is that we all know

psychics can do that. And when I started reading, the first time I read this book, we all know, like, obviously, you know, lots of it is psychology and reading, but the fact that then she just starts with, oh, but Alison can genuinely hear people. And you're like, oh my God, that's such a good character. Like, what do you? The Morris is on the floor. Well, the fact, he was a, he was a, he was a, he was a, A clown in the circus and he has bowed legs because someone beat the shit on him.

Like, yeah, it's, he's an incredible spirit guide. Like, what a character. But I just love this idea that the whole time you're reading it, you're having to accept that Alison genuinely can hear spirits. What I loved about Colette, actually, is that even though she absolutely saw it happening and knew Alison wasn't faking it, her mind couldn't accept it. Yeah, I think that's where I would stand.

You could absolutely, Mike, prove to me that you knew things that you couldn't possibly know because someone else was telling you. And I would go, I believe you're doing it, but I don't believe it. As in my world view can't change because of it. She's just got that one moment, doesn't she? That phone call. Oh, yeah, the phone call. If she wasn't for that phone call.

Yeah. To her mother-in-law, I'm sure she'd be able to be so dismissive. She gets a phone call from her mother-in-law. Yeah, and she has a brief phone call from her, and then she finds out she's actually dead. And she lied about having a stair lift because she's lived in a bungalow. Yeah. So then Colette has this like, oh my God, like. And she does have a spirit guide who actually Alison Steeleads at the end.

Who's this like sweet old lady who's sort of following her around. Looking for her friend. Looking for her friend. For Maureen Harrison. Maureen Harrison. When I was very newly pregnant with my first son, Steen was doing a press interview to Australia. He was on a Zoom. So I was about six weeks and we've done IVF.

So, you know, it wasn't public knowledge or anything like that. And this woman said at the end of the interview, she went, I've loved talking to you. Do you know I'm a me. medium. Right? What? And he said, I didn't know that.

And she said, I've got this really strong message. And I'm not, you know, I have quite strict morals. I don't tell people things unless they want to hear them. But I'm getting this really strong thing to tell you. And then he said, okay. And she said, it's about your wife. And she's, she said, she's really worried. She's holding her stomach.

She's really worried about her stomach. And then she went, oh, I just realized. So she's pregnant. And so it was so crazy. So that happened. And it was completely, completely crazy. I know, but I still don't believe it. Had you been talking about IVF or anything like that publicly?

No, no, nothing like that. And this woman was in Australia and didn't know who I was. She wouldn't have known the Steen's wife was a comedian even. She was just, and I do believe that people can give off. Yeah. You know, pick up things, even over Zoom. Pick up things over each other. That's mad.

It is mad. That's a good one. Oh, that's a good, like, media story. And I remembered it reading this book thinking about things for us to talk about. I was like, oh, shit, that happened. And my dad's side of the family, the Pascoes, they have readers and psychics and angels and all of those kind of things. And it's quite, you know, Essex-y where, because there's one in New Zealand. And they'll just go, I can't remember what her name is.

It would be like, just, you know, Claire from New Zealand, rang. She says. And they sort of like dombing each other in, all the sisters. Like, why are you telling you about that? Yeah. And she's had a lot of, you know, from New Zealand, even just like, Wingale. but bingo she's not well I'm really tricky

because I had tarot cards as a teenager I was what we watched the craft over and over again that is a feather stiff as a boy and I love that stuff but then when I started doing grief cast I actually moved very much away from it because the one thing I will say is

grieving people are so vulnerable and they want to hear a message so badly and I often talk about like I've had stuff with my dad that's like sort of like oh that's an unusual coincidence but i've never had like oh you know have you had people contact you saying they have messages from him yeah family members are believers and they go to spiritualist churches and they ring me up and they say say your dad said this and as i've always said my mum and i have always said well it's a shame that he's fucking talking to uh you know

Susan from Aldershot and he's not talking to his wife and daughter like if he has a message you think he'd come and speak to me rather than going to Susan from Aldershot who's drawn a picture of a bearded man and said is this your father? People are so contactable now

Yeah it's true And actually he would have been very into that So yeah I have then got much more cynical as I got older But that's why this book appeals to me Because it appeals to that teenage me That's like there are spirits And you could talk to him

That yearning. Has anyone ever contacted Did you say, I've got a message for you? No, there's... No messages. There's quite a senior Air Commodore who's done some work on my Polish grandfather's a bomber pilot, but that's very much documentation rather than spiritual stuff.

Yeah. I wanted to tell, I just read you a quote that she said, Mantel said. Yeah. This was an interview with CBC, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. Okay, not CBC. No, sorry. Interimition with CBBs.

Yeah. She did a lovely story at bedtime. How do you feel about, hey, Dougie? she said if Alison could remember the past she could really nail it perhaps it would lose its power over her and I thought that was a really yeah the idea of that's what psychics and mediums are sometimes manipulating if you want to see it like that

or sometimes using to help is the power the past has over us and that's what I think this book I love this book because I think it's about what the past how much it haunts us it's haunting Alison and whether the spirits are real or not real, you could see them as a metaphor, that is her, that's the past, just constantly talking to her.

Carrie, I'm saying, it's incredibly deep and insightful. Thanks. She's haunted by the past. Yes, she's literally haunted. And it's full of ghosts. Yeah. She's literally haunted. That's what it is.

Yeah. I get it now. Oh, I get it now. Oh, you told me she died. So we both learn. We both learn. Yeah. And I think that's what I find so interesting

about Mantell's writing is I feel like she writes characters that haunt you. Like I feel like when I'm not reading, her books, I'm still thinking about the characters. And I felt like this with Alison, I was worrying about them. And I felt that with Warfall, just like, God, what's Thomas Cromwell going to do? How's he going to get out of that?

And I feel like she, her ability to create worlds and characters that you are just immersed in. And I would say, if you've never read Mantel, like, you should, because she's one of our great. Yeah. Did you enjoy it, Mike? I've really enjoyed it. Yeah. Oh, good. I genuinely did. I mean, I'm not

very recently post-parson. Yeah. I don't think I'm fully that the sort of 20s psychopath phase but I'm maybe somewhere else where I can remove myself enough that I was able to find it funny and enjoy that. There's lots where you'd go,

as you've said, but I think I was able to distance myself enough to enjoy it. I was trying to write down because there were some such incredible jokes. Oh, so good. Someone who has routines where the punchline is really great but you need to know loads of stuff beforehand. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

There's a brilliant bit about men I wrote that down because I was going to ask Mike to answer to it right at the beginning. Why can't men just stand? Collette wondered, why do you have to sway on the spot and feeling their pockets and pat themselves up and down and suck their teeth? Tell us, Mike. Why do men have to do that? It's just stand. It's guilt.

It's guilt and shame. A bit of being found out. I think Mantell would like that explanation. Do you have a last line? I didn't have a last line. I think this is a good, this is right towards the end of the book. Okay. At some point on your road, you have to turn and start.

walking back towards yourself. Or the past will pursue you and bite the nape of your neck, leave you bleeding in the ditch. Better to turn and face it with such weapons as you possess. Oh, Mantel. Very good. Good advice. Thank you so much, Mr. Osniak.

Thanks for having me. Dr. Oz. Thank you for listening to the Weirdo's Book Club. My novel Weirdo and Carriad's book, You Are Not Alone, are both available now. And you can buy tickets for our live show at Foyles on the 25th of January, available now. Thank you for reading with us. You like reading with you.