Sara & Cariad's Weirdos Book Club - Big Swiss by Jen Beagin with Suzi Ruffell

Episode Date: February 1, 2024

This week's book guest is Big Swiss by Jen Beagin.Sara and Cariad are joined by brilliant comedian Suzi Ruffell to discuss debonair dogs, sex chats, coconut oil, therapy and journeys. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you!Trigger warning: In this episode we discuss assault and suicide.Big Swiss by Jen Beagin is available to buy here or on Apple Books here.You can find Suzi on Instagram: @suziruffellcomedyListen to Suzi's podcasts Like Minded Friends here and Big Kick Energy here.Ticket for the rescheduled live show on Tue 9 April at Foyles, Tottenham Court Road are available to buy here.Sara’s debut novel Weirdo is published by Faber & Faber and is available to buy here.Cariad’s book You Are Not Alone is published by Bloomsbury and is available to buy here.Follow Sara & Cariad’s Weirdos Book Club on Instagram @saraandcariadsweirdosbookclub and Twitter @weirdosbookclub Recorded and edited by Naomi Parnell for Plosive.Artwork by Welcome Studio.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Sarah Pasco. Hello, I'm Carriad Lloyd. And we're weird about books. We love to read. We read too much. We talk too much. About the too much that we've read. Which is why we've created the Weirdos Book Club.

Join us. A space for the lonely outsider to feel accepted and appreciated. A place for the person who'd love to be in a real book club, but doesn't like wine or nibbles. Or being around other people. Is that you? Join us. Check out our Instagram at Sarah and Carriad's Weirdos Book Club for the upcoming books we're going to be discussing. You can read along and share your opinions.

Or just skulk around in your raincoat like the weirdo you are. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you. This week's book guest is Big Swiss by Jen Began. What's it about? Greta transcribes the intimate therapy sessions of Flavia and then ends up meeting her by accident in the dog park. What qualifies it for the weirdos book club?

Well, Greta is an A-grade weirdo and she kisses her dog on the mouth. On the reg. In this episode, we discuss. Lesbian Instagram. Debenair. Dogs. Sex chats. Coconut oil. Trauma, therapy and journeys. And joining us this week is Susie Ruffle. Susie's a brilliant stand-up. She's been on Live at the Apollo. She's hosted live at the Apollo. She's been on the last leg, loads of panel shows. She does their brilliant, very funny,

light-minded friends with Tom Allen. Check them out. They're amazing. Trigger warning. In this episode, we discuss assault and suicide. Susie. Hello. Thank you so much for coming. We've definitely not been chatting for half an hour. Half an hour already. We've just met. Yeah. Hi. Susan with a Y or an eye? It's with an eye, but thanks for asking. So you posted about enjoying this book. I did.

Yeah, so I want to know the story. I always like the story of like, how did you find the book? Was it recommended to you? It was recommended by a mutual friend of all of ours. Oh, Kaylee, Flewellyn. Oh, Kelly Llellan. Shout out our friend, Kaylee. Kaylee, who is adapting this.

Kaylee is an actor, comedian writer, and she wrote two amazing series called In My Skin for the BBC, and she is down to adapt this for HBO. She messaged me and was like, Babby, got to read this. She didn't message me that, so I'm annoyed. Well, I'm playing the dog. Oh, maybe that's why. Which dog, though?

There's so many dogs in this book. Pinyon. Pinyon, the little one. The little one. I should be Pinyon. That part is taken, okay? You can pay one of the bees. I'd be a good bee.

I knew I was coming to do this today, obviously. And last night I dreamt that I shut someone in a room with some bees. Oh. And I said to them, find the queen bee and you can leave. And then I woke up. Yeah. I don't know if I'm stressing out maybe. Are you guys?

Are you the new taskmaster? Yeah, just bees. I'm the bee master. You're the bee master. We are talking about Big Swiss. Are we? Are we? And we say if you want to get on this show,

what you need to do is post about books you're reading and Sarah will message you. Yes, because there's nothing more wonderful than sharing someone's enthusiasm for something, because you really enjoyed this. I did really enjoy. I really enjoyed it. I really enjoyed it, but it's unusual to enjoy something so much when you sort of detest both of the main characters. Oh, did you detest them? Interesting.

I kind of thought they were both gross in different ways. Oh, I like fascinating, eccentric people I don't have to spend time with. I like reading about them more than actually, I wouldn't want to house share with anyone in this book. I think it's a real testament to the writing when you're like, I don't like these people. It took me ages not to like Greta. Like, I actually liked Greta for ages because of something I just thought, I could just see why she was making those decisions sometimes. Doing what we all secretly want to do. I think that's the thing that's really interesting.

Like, you know, if I was like, guys, I'm just going to leave my diary there. And it's not like a day-to-day diary. It's just sort of the big things that I think are important in comedy and what I think about every comedian I've ever been there. I'm just going to leave it there. Don't look at it, don't touch it. Do you know what? I wouldn't read it if you'd told me not to you, but Sarah would.

I would. And it was mine. I want you to know that I am such, I would not read it. You wouldn't read it? I'd keep secrets. I don't tell people things why this friendship works. Yeah. Oh, I can't wait to tell.

There's some shit I need to get off my plate. I will not tell anyone. I've got to tell someone. Yeah. No, I don't tell. So, so. So just to... Oh, yes.

Sorry. So you've got a therapist and you've got the person transcribing, that's Greta, transcribing the therapy sessions. So, Susie, you would... You would want to listen to people's therapy sessions. Sex therapy sessions, we should say. He's as om.

His name is, he's a sex therapist. Bruce. Yeah, he changes his name to Om. Yeah. He... I mean, I think secretly we all want to... Maybe not you carry out. No, I would listen, but I wouldn't tell the secrets.

That's the thing. Okay, there you go. No, but that's about... I'd want to listen. Oh, I want to notice it. That's why I don't tell, because then people tell you to. Well, that's what Susie was saying. She was saying she lives a diary there.

Would you read it? Yes, she would. No, if she told me not to, I wouldn't. I love hearing it. So if you were having to transcribe them, great. Because that's your job. It's your job. I felt like I sort of got Greta.

Yeah. And then she gets sort of... She does go more mad. She goes more mad. Yeah. It's a real insight into people with mental health problems that haven't really got them organized. Or people who have been through a really traumatic event.

events. I found it so funny and I found it more funny on a reread. Oh, okay. Interesting. I think I wasn't reading it for story. All of my notes say, so funny. I think maybe... She told him about her last boyfriend. He'd had money, a new experience for Greta, but zero upper body strength. He could barely hold himself on top of her. And when he did, she felt like she was being made love to by a large trembling finger. They were together for two years. Yeah, that is good. It's so funny. It's so funny, but it's dark funny. But we should say as well that, yeah, so Greta is a transcriber for a sex therapist. and some of the stuff she's listening to is deeply traumatic

and Greta herself, her mother took her own life and is still dealing with that. Greta is not dealing with it, I guess, is probably the safer way to say it. So there's lots of trauma and the character that she starts really listening to Big Swiss has had a really, really traumatic thing, violent thing happened to her, and then Greta meets Big Swiss in real life and basically...

By accident at the beginning, but then by a mission and sort of lying to her... Yes, starts a relationship with her. And it is a massive betrayal. Yeah, because she knew a lot of stuff. Flavier doesn't know. And Biggsworths felt like, wow, you really connect with you. Remind me.

Yeah. Because I listen to your therapy sessions. But it's such a sort of tantal, like you said, like the diary, it's a very tantalizing idea that if you, you know, when you do meet someone, you don't know everything about them and you don't know their background or what happened to be given that key. And then to hear them talking about you. You, yeah. That's the bit.

Yeah. But the thing is, no one's actual therapy would be as interesting as the therapy in this book. Yes. There's stories within stories, which is the greatest thing. You know, when you're meeting a character and then you meet other characters in their lives through these little vignette stories. That's why I enjoyed reading it so much.

I wanted to ask you both. Prepare yourself for a really wanky question. Okay. Is it an allegorical novel? I don't know what that means. Okay. So it's like the characters both have trauma and they deal with it in different ways.

So is Jen actually, as well as telling you a story, she's trying to posit a kind of higher metaphor, like this is how we deal with trauma because you've got big Swiss dealing with her trauma and a very blunt, like it doesn't define me at all and then you've got Greta who has like ruminated, live with, written about, held her trauma really, really closely and at the end of the book, it's just the first note I wrote,

I regret opening it now. No, no, no, I'm the least that you did. Thank you. You know what Allegory is and people do say that and sometimes you're not in a situation where you can ask. And I really didn't give an opportunity for that. Did you notice my pause of like, I'm not confident enough of my definition of it to instantly tell you.

So I was like, what does I agree mean? But I guess it's metaphorical, isn't it? I thought it was a herb, so I'm quite relieved that I've learnt this. Is Jen Began using these characters to make a bigger point about how we deal with trauma? Because that's why I slightly felt towards the end that Greta and Flavia, Greta and Big Swiss for me, sort of became unreal. And it became so much about how they had dealt with their trauma. I was like, I didn't until now. I didn't think it was an allegory.

I found both of them really aspirational. I really Okay, okay Because, yes, very traumatic things happened And yet with both of them I was like, I wish I was like that And I wish I was like that I think they're so cool

What bits did you wish you were like? So with Big Swiss, the way that she deals with something Which is that it happened But it doesn't define her The fact that she hates the word trauma And so don't use that again And she had these certain words in therapy

She was like, don't ever use journey It makes me feel sick Yeah, yeah, that's funny Where I absolutely knew What she had a problem with Can you not use the word journey Ever again? It makes my skin crawl.

I'm not crazy about it. tools either. I loved her attitude to therapy. Yeah, that was funny. I didn't know if that's how she's sort of not dealing with it. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think it's been dealt with, but I think she's just put it in a box. Yeah.

And there's almost like no emotion to it whereas Greta is all emotion. Yeah, way too much. And that's slightly what the connection between them is to. And I felt like, at the end, I felt like the writer was having a discussion about trauma rather than the characters, just having their story. I was like, oh, this is two versions of trauma. And

And she's put one version in one character and one version of this. And now what happens if you meet the unemotional with the super emotional, super emotional rumination refusing to let go. Do you think Jen, and I'm going to just call her Jen. Do you think Jen is saying like, guys, try and pitch your trauma somewhere between these two mad bitches? Yeah, I do. I think she's doing two extremes. And I don't think.

I think she's saying trauma is so funny. And that it's, you know, common. This sense, I'm just going to read it. This is page 8. This is really early on. She's setting her bar early. I'm not one of those trauma people. This is Big Swiss in her session.

And then Om says, what's a trauma person? She says, someone who can't stop saying the word trauma. Trauma people are almost unbearable to me as Trump people. I thought she really, she definitely finds the comedy in trauma and the way that our society currently treats trauma, trauma, trauma, is traumatising, it's triggering and all this. And I think she's definitely spoofing that and like pulling it apart. in the character of Big Swiss.

But then towards the end, because they do both suffer these hugely traumatic incidents in their life that have completely defined them. And, you know, Greta's continues to define her and she sort of learns to hold it. But Big Swiss ends up defining her husband. Like it ends up still hurting her in a completely new way. So I was like, it's sort of a big investigation of trauma.

She's satirising it, but also being like, what do we do with trauma? And is that how you make talking about trauma for an entire book? more tolerable. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. At the Edinburgh Festival, guys. Yeah, she's definitely managing to give those characters,

I mean, horrific things, and we should say, like, you know, they do go into what's happened to Big Swiss a little bit, and it is horrible, but then it is treated in such a... Well, there's jokes even in the description of it. Yeah, yeah. Especially because Om is such a funny character. Om is such a funny character. Yeah, when he's like...

Oh, you've been to India. Yeah. And she's like, unpacking, like, something horrific that happens. Yeah, yeah. Where? Oh yeah, the north I've been there. Anyway, carry on. Or the gong.

Are you looking at the gong? Yeah. Do you want a gong bath? She's like, I've just told you about the horrific violent attack. You could do a gong bath. Yeah, that'll probably, I think it's good sometimes. There's sort of a trigger warning in the book before she starts talking about. Yes, that's true.

Om gives the trigger warning. I didn't know if that was just a line that, just something that Om was saying, or whether that was something that the writer was going, this is a lot. It's both, isn't it? It's what human being would do. it's what we're doing now very carefully because we would recommend this book wholeheartedly but always with a caveat

of you know brackets trauma. Greta is listening to Big Swiss's therapy sessions before she hears what's happening. She already loves her she already loves and she is Swiss and she's very blunt and she's very un-American in her take on her life and she also gives Om a lot of shit which his other

clients don't do they like want him they're like yes you're right on where she's like what are you saying this doesn't make sense and then when Greta hears her trauma I felt like Greta fell in love with her even more because she suddenly understands this person through the lens of trauma which is what she is also dealing with. I thought that Greta was sort of, to begin with,

was like assuming that it would be like, oh, kind of poor little rich girl. Yeah, exactly. She's so beautiful and blonde. What bad can happen to her? You know, talks about, oh, she's the kind of, you can tell that she's a kind of woman

that makes people's heads turn but also dogs or something. There was like some unusual sentence like that, but it made me think that as soon as she realized that Big Swiss was a bit broken too. Yes. She was like, oh, we're the same. Okay, I can, I, now I need to know more about you. I'm desperate. And you feel like from Big Swiss as well.

Like, Big Swiss is like, I don't know why I'm drawn to you, but they're both extremely broken and holding this. But is she only drawn to her because she thinks that she has this, like, insight into her life that nobody else has? Yeah, it's really, isn't it? Like, would she like her? Or maybe that's just me. Like when they talk about the house. Greta is living with her friend Sabine, who lives in an insane converted windmill.

Isn't it a Dutch windmill at one point? You slept from 1700s maybe? Yeah, there's bees living in the living room. 60,000. 60,000 bees. She says, my housemates are 60,000 bees. Yeah. And rather than getting rid of the beehive,

they got someone to come in and put glass around it or something so they could see the bees. Yeah. The house. There's maggots. There's all sorts going on the house. It makes my skin crore. Yeah.

I think I dislike Greta because of how Grace her house is. I'm, really like things really tidy. Yeah. Again, it's very aspirational, very aspirational. You haven't got maggots. Little baby donkeys, I've had maggots. Not, yeah, not now, but in your youth when we were living together.

Probably during COVID, probably had a few times. I had mice for years before I had kids. She wouldn't, she wouldn't deal with the mice because she wanted, she was like, they're friends. She was in here, humane. Oh, it was just admin as well. And I didn't mind them. I didn't mind them running through the front room.

At one point she suggested leaving them a note, there was one point. What did you think they could read English? Look, the thing is, the mice came in the house. I've got a dog called mouse and they ate from his bowl. That's funny. That is funny. I'm talking about the mice prior to that. The mice way, way back.

Protome mice. Well, your mom's house. No, the other mouse place you had mice. Carrie had's mom's house and mouse jumps on my head. We've never had mouse mice in that house. Mouse. We never had mice in that house ever. My entire life, Sarah moved in.

We got the biggest field mouse. We've ever seen life moved into her bedroom. because she wouldn't take the food downstairs. Because they can tell I'm an ally. My mum, how did your mum deal with that? Because my mum would have been quite rageful. My mum and Sarah have a strange symbiotic Essex bond where things that I would not be allowed to get away with.

She sometimes, I feel, gives Pasco like, Harriet's mum was very kind to me. So my mum was like, Sarah, you need to take those plates down. We've got a mouse. And also Sarah was so upset about it. Like, there's a mouse in the room. My mum was like, well, couldn't sleep. That's the plates.

But also the mouse he got more confident. So first of all, if I put the light on, he'd be quiet or run away. The third night in a row, he was in my shoe. So I went towards him thinking he'd run away, didn't he ran towards me? And then jumped onto my head and over the top. Mom was a while. He's wearing your pajamas. That's it. He lives there now.

I moved out. He won. While we're on this wonderful subject, can we talk about animals? Yes, there are lots of animals in this. Susie, you've got a beautiful cat. I do have a beautiful cat. He were in love with. Is that fair to say?

Yeah, I would say that she would say, since my baby's turned up. Oh, has she come drop down in the packing order? So when we were like getting my daughter's bedroom ready and we like put her crib in there and whatnot, the cat got in the crib and was like, oh, finally a bed. Little baby get a biddy. Like, oh, they've finally done my room. I don't know why they've got me a wardrobe, but okay.

I'll try it. TikTok cats. Yeah, I guess that's who I am now. They've got me some books. Is it Velma? Velma, yeah. And now my daughter loves her and she makes a real display of like kissing her.

Oh, good. And she'd be like, just on the head. Just on the head. Does Vemma like being kissed? Yeah, I mean, she puts up with it. But she just loves human contact. She's such a non-cat cat. Oh, okay.

So she's not upset with your daughter. No, she's like, fine. A new person to worship me. I'm beautiful. You're sleeping in my crib. I'll share. Your cat's become Tommelan. Yeah.

No, I imagine my cat to have a German accent. Oh, Velma. Yes. Velma, yes. Like she sort of walks into room and go, oh you again and then walks out and then that's really nice I love this crib yeah oh this is nice for me yeah so the baby sleep here first then I will

we sleep at the same time sometimes I sleep in daytime she doesn't so that's sort of us child she's kissing me again but when you've had that kind of relationship with an animal you absolutely understand even if it's not with dogs the kind of love that you have that Greta has for her dog pinion His kisses were dry, sweet perfection, his breath smelled like licorice. She'd never known such pure and uncomplicated love. Because that's how I feel about the love.

Don't make this the snippet. Please do, please do. The love that exists between a human and an animal. You definitely have that for dogs, Stephanie. Well, I really like dogs and admire them, but the actual, like, the pure uncomplicated relationship was with mouse, who taught me how to love. and I don't think I'd have a husband or children if it hadn't been for him. Oh, mousy. I know.

Why is that? What did mouse bring? I think it's the nonverbal communication. I think it's just you're projecting love onto someone and taking care of their needs. But Susan's point is that there were other dogs. Yeah. Was there something that Mouse brought to the table? Mousse is my first dog from the beginning.

Oh, yeah, true. Because others you inherited from other people. My mum used to buy my sister dogs every time she went into hospital. And she was a child so she didn't knock after them. So we had a couple of dogs at university. Came to stay. ended up staying a while. Right.

Yeah. Sure. Other dogs. But mouse was the one that you chose. Yeah. Did you have mouse from a puppy? Yeah. Because someone had taken him away from his mum

and he was only a few weeks old. So someone had adopted him in flats near me and couldn't look after him because he was crying all night. Because they wouldn't let him sleep in their bed. She'll cry all night and I was like, he'll be in my bench. She's like, he'd be fine. And he was. So how did you end up getting him?

Did you just meet someone on the street and say... No, they were advertised him on the internet. I think the writer must absolutely love dogs. Because Flavia also has an amazing dog. The dogs are described like any of the human characters. Yeah, they are big characters. They have, they have personalities. Like, Greta

thinks of Pinyon as like being well-travelled and debonair. There is this word that she would use about her dog but not about a man. Yeah. Well, it's also a lovely bit, isn't it? She, Greta's in this very safe relationship and he's the one who suggests that they get a dog and then basically she gets Pinyon, she realizes

she doesn't need this man. Well, he's worried. He says, I don't want us to get a dog because I think you're love them and not need me anyone. That's exactly what happens. Because she's like, this dog's so amazing. And they break up and she's like, obviously I'm taking Pinyon. I mean, I agree with you. Pinyon and what's Big Swiss's dog?

Silas, yes, are as strong characters. And the bit where she properly meets Big Swiss when Pinyon is attacked by another dog and Big Swiss rescues her dog, which I was like, that's a very big metaphor of the power Big Swiss has is that she will take you from trauma and whisk it away because that's what she does to Pinyon. isn't it? I took this book so literally. Oh, I took it so metaphor.

You've taken a lot of the fun out of it. I know. Yeah, she just wrestled a dog. There's a bit at the end where Om says to Greta, literally like, you are a metaphor. He says to her, this is a metaphor you're living. And then when I read that, I was like, this whole book is a metaphor.

Everything started falling away. But before that, I was very literal. And I was like, oh, that's nice. And then I was like, oh, Big Swiss rescues the dog. And the bees, what did the bees mean? I want to talk, because it's set in the space called Hudson, which I hadn't really heard of. No.

But it sounds a bit brightening. It's got Brighton vibes. Sure, sure, sure. It's very liberal and it's obviously sounds like wellness. Wellness, hipstery. It sounded like it was written maybe sort of the birth of hipster kind of coming in, which I think we don't, it doesn't quite exist now. Yeah, she says something about like one of the eight independent coffee shops.

Yeah, yeah, it's that vibe. How did you, did you relate to Hudson being someone who lives in Brighton? Like, did you feel that vibe of a town that's slightly, is almost a joke in itself, even though it's a wonderful place to be. Yeah, I think that I did make that link that it was, I think that, I mean, you just get very, I know, I know those people, that's what I think that I, you know, I see those people walking their dogs. Yeah.

I see those women in linen. You know, I, I know the people that are microdacing. Yeah. It's, it's very much, I mean, there are so many therapists in Bryant. That's what I like that. Or if you want an acupunctureist, it's like, well, there's seven on your street. Like how many acupuncturists does one need? And having, because we both lived in Brighton,

there's a, it's nice to live somewhere like that. Oh, I love it. But I thought, again, she's, I thought she satirised that area very well, that everyone knows everybody's business as well. And actually they are all sleeping each other and they are all messed up. It's not, despite all the therapy and the wellness and the acupuncture, everybody's still quite fucked up. It's not like everybody's fine.

Again, isn't it? It's about how much of the book is about sort of people sort of owning their trauma. Certainly it feels like that sort of town is where people, They're the people that big Swiss hates. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is the people that are constantly talking about their journey, their trauma and the tools they're using to get through their journey with their trauma. That's the other thing.

I was like, it's funny that's someone like big Swiss, but then there is that other side of it, I guess, to write in like the big nice houses, that's nice area to live in and it's beautiful. And, you know, that's what's slightly confused me. I was like, why do they live there when they aren't part of that set? I really liked the discussion of her Swissness. And I guess it was obviously talking from two Americans.

So Greta's American and her husband's American, of how, like how challenging they find someone who doesn't keep the peace or isn't polite. And there's a great moment where Big Swiss kind of has a go at them both because they can't tolerate somebody judging them or somebody saying something about them. And she describes in Switzerland that you look away. Do you remember this bit on the train? She says like in Switzerland it's polite to look away knowing someone is assessing you. And then they will look away that so you can judge their shoes and their trousers and their hat

and their bag and decide who they are. but she's like, it's polite. It's a form of politeness that I allow you to judge me and I give you space to do it. Whereas in America that would be seen as like, how dare you judge me? Maybe that's why she lives in Hudson because she can just look at it for what it is.

And be like, it's kind of terrible. I kind of like it. I don't like her. I like them. Yeah. That seems fine. But also I thought it's interesting that they kept calling it like her Swissness,

but I thought it's also quite an English thing as well. I found it interesting that it was Americans being like, oh, that's so rude and so blunt. And I was like, I feel it's almost a bit Englishy as well, because we're not so. It's just other. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just anything that is not sort of, I'm going to be polite to you. America's such a bizarre place in that like, it's like, we will hold the door open, but we are allowed to shoot you.

Like it holds so many things, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Have a nice day, but also, fuck you and you're right. Yeah. Like, it's such a, and so I guess that's. Which I thought it was into, I feel like big Swiss says that when she was like, you're so oversensitive. she says it to both of them doesn't she she was like you can't cope with someone saying i think this about you because it's like how dare you how dare you she's like but why do

you care she's like who cares they assess me they judge me but i'm not bothered by their assessment of it whereas yeah greta is like crippled under this like what do people think of me and i'm i'm a failure and i haven't done what i'm supposed to do and have i made the book not fun no i don't i don't think i see greta as crippled i believe her when she says she's free Like her whole description like how she found Sabine, how her life has been, how she's been able to like just go through these breakups and these jobs. I loved her untetheredness to everything apart from her dog. That's the perfect word for her. I love descriptions of most of the characters because I found them so, you know, original and the writing.

She really went to town like every person had like four things to describe. I loved the whole thing about Big Swiss having an aura that's so big. It made her claustrophobic. She couldn't have people face to face with her. And she couldn't stay in a basement? Yes. There were just things that were just things that's like, oh God, I love this woman. I love this woman existing, walking around.

So I will ask you to a question about the representation of sexuality in this book. I thought you were going to say dogs. I was like. Back to dogs. Kissing dogs on the mouth, go. Of sexuality, go on. So what? Well, I went, especially on a reread, I thought men are so absent from sex in this book.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, massively. And so it felt really. It reminded me a little bit of Felicity Ward used to have some standard by how when men imagined women masturbating. They imagined it being really dainty. It looks like this. And it was such an Australian. And actually there's something really, and I think maybe joy is the word, or maybe it's liberating, about depictions of sexuality that aren't for male titillation.

Oh yeah. It felt like a very female, I felt like that, a female joy in the way that they have sex and love each other. And even the description of other sex Had that even in some of Om's other clients Well also the interesting thing with Big Swiss Is that we find out she is having sex with her husband But it's only to get pregnant as well Like that's sort of the transaction that's happening over there

Whereas we know the sex she's having regretta It's just like absolutely Just whatever the pair of them want to do There were some couple of things that shocked me I was like the coconut oil freezing the coconut oil to shove it up Big Swiss's ass Or was it, big Swiss shoving

I was just like, well, you're surprised about that? You need to come to Brighton. I know, it's been too long. I've lived in North London. I was like, oh my God, made me blush, because I am approved with these things.

Do you do? Do you blush at books? Yeah. Oh my God. Do you not? No, I just, I love that you do ostentation because you really are from that time. It's just like, I was reading a book.

I couldn't stop blushing. I had to leave. People talk about put sex in books and then the characters are having sex, really relevant to their relationship, whereas this sex felt very relevant. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. To get you to know them.

And joyous. It felt like the only time these characters were happy. And it was bigger than just pleasure because it felt like it was exploration and knowing a person. Yeah, and it didn't feel like when you're sometimes really sexy and you're like, oh God, this is like, I wasn't blushing and embarrassing. I was more just like, I didn't know people did that. I've underlined the description of their vaginas.

They're so weird. Every time we meet up, you say that about someone else. I'm like, oh, go on, Sarah. I've got Susie's diary. I mean, that would be from quite a long time ago. I love this bit where she's selling her that, so Greta is selling Big Swiss that her brain reminds her of Siberia, but you're down there is like South America.

Oh, yeah, yeah. And then they have a conversation about which country in South America it would be. It does sound much funnier when your reread. I think I was really, like, overthinking it. I think Sarah reads everything slightly sarcastic. I think Sarah should do all people's, books. Yeah, just really enjoying it, this trauma.

I read it thinking Jen Began has definitely had sex with women. The thing that I think that people that don't have sex with women, two women having sex, is that there is so much chat. I would say like that and no one knows when it ends. That is the thing because, you know, women can just carry on for, you know, a long time. So it's not as simple. No.

I've met up for brunches with lesbians and been like they've had an hour's sleep. They've just got together and they've had an hour's sleep. Oh, really? And it will like, round the table and you'll be like, have you guys not slept very much? And then they'd be like, because nobody knows when it ends. So do you need like a... You'll make it sound brilliant. That's why I'm like, oh, sounds great.

I'm thinking I needed a flag or something. I'm sorry. That's what I think. The sort of sex interspersed with conversation. Yeah. Is real... It felt like they felt like they felt very... real.

I think that's so fascinating because when you're straight like I haven't never had sex before you did a really sad look

there like I'm a prude I was questioning I'm a regency woman so yeah oh babe regency woman oh yeah

they were yeah because also imagine how bad men were at sex in those days anyway that's what I was

going to say about the conversation yeah if a man ever does try to talk during sex it's always like

shh now what sort of chat would it be trying to be trying to be sexy oh yeah It's not chat. It's not like chat, is it?

Because I think that what happens between Big Swiss and Greta is that there, some of it's sexy chat and then other bits are like just conversation about feelings or stuff or just like processing. Or even like they sound like two very good friends because there's that bit at the end when they're sort of really blunt with each other. Yeah, but you do this and your problem with trauma is this. Yeah, but the reason. And I was like that is such a, like that sounded like two friends trying to work out an argument, two women friends trying to work out an argument. I would say that's how lesbians work out in like me.

So I would say, lesbians sound like women friends. There's something about two women being in a relationship where it's not in all relationships, obviously, and I've had bad relationships with women, but in good relationships, certainly in my marriage, my wife and I are like, here's the truth of the scenario. Yeah, yeah. This is how you made me feel. And it will be like, immediate, like, we're on our way home from a night out and it'll be like, you said that thing.

Yeah, the sex stuff. was sort of explicit, but I wasn't shocked by it, but then I read a lot of lesbian fiction. Yeah. I would say I'm very into, I'm very across lesbian fiction. Do you know what's like recently having two children and coconut oil is all about dealing with a C-section scar. So I was like, oh, I didn't know people were using... Well, if you've got heard.

Well, I have. And I am interested in what they did. But I think as well, the frankness, when you're having sex with a boy, and I did do it a couple of times. She says with regret. You know what the, you know what the thing, the thing that you do is. Yeah, yeah. You put that bit in that bit.

Great. I think with women having sex with each other, there's a lot more tinkering. And everyone needs to be tinkered in a slightly different way. Which really is true of all women. Totally. You know what I mean? And I think that's probably true of straight couples at having great sex. Don't get me wrong.

But there's not another narrative where it's like you could just put that and that and it's done. Yeah. And I think as well, you have to talk about it where you go, or you're, might have liked that there, but that's not for me because it's slightly different. I'm really honest in this podcast. It's really, I think it's important that the nation hears. Kat Cohen, I'm almost 100% certain as Kat Cohen, had a very funny line about having sex with women where she said, she assumed that she'd be very good at it, but it's actually

like putting on eye liner, you know how to do it yourself, but doing it on someone else is actually quite hard. I know I thought that is the best. That's a brilliant description. Yeah. Because I think that's, and so all of the. that stuff about how they are so... Do you know, I was tempted to say vulgar then,

but it's... No, they're just honest. They're just very honest about it, aren't they? Explicit. Yeah. Yeah. But it's unembarrassed. Yeah.

And it has to be because it's a book where a sex therapist, a transcriber is writing up sex therapy sessions. So in a lot of the other couple's sex, there's another couple that she, you know, where she hears both sides of they both have therapy with all. Yes. Yes. And she's describing how her husband said her pussy,

smelled like an aquarium in Chinatown. And she's so pissed off. And then you hear the man's version where he says that her pussy tastes is like fish sauce. Yeah. And he's like, I put that shit on everything. Like it's so tasty. And that's such a funny example of how what you hear and what you say are very different things.

Yeah, right. Especially in a race. So, so that, and it's never gratuitous. And I don't think even the coconut oil is supposed to shock you. It's supposed to say this is the kind of stuff that people do. No,

It was just me being prudished, but I'm just being surprised. I don't think it was there to shock you. No, no, no. Another writer might have put something far lesser there to cause you to go, oh, wow. Well, it made me think. Was two people so relaxed with each other and so open and so like... I mean, you've got to be relaxed. Yeah, but they seem so open and honest.

But also they're taking pictures of each other's vagina from the first time. Yeah, and that's bold. Yeah, that is bold. Okay, that's not all lesbens. Get your camera out. Oh, God. I don't think anyone's got a shot of mine. No, for my wife.

Greta also didn't seem to... Greta doesn't identify as gay at the beginning and she's kind of surprised. When she says she's gay, she's like, oh, am I a lesbian? And then also for Big Swish, she's married to a man. So you feel this very... They have such a relaxed openness with each other.

And exploratory, like we're on this journey together. And that's what I felt at the end, one of the notes I made was like, you really feel how much they love each other. Like the love, it's not just about sex, even though they have this, you know, wild... Wild sessions together, which no one knows how to end.

But I think they're... conversations are equally wild when they're in a bar. I think that's why I found them both so aspirational as they seemed, because someone brilliant was writing them, like they were in touch with things and understood things and had thought about things. They're brave, they're definitely brave. Whereas everyone I know is talking about box sets. I'm not, mate.

I just thought that there was, it was almost like the sexuality. It's how I imagined people might be in a hundred years. Yeah, yeah. No one's using labels. No one really knows exactly. It wasn't a big deal. we had this connection and then we were having sex

and that's when we'd get to a much purer place with gender when people wouldn't have to fight with language to go this isn't anything this is something they loved each other and she still loved her husband

like both of those things were true you know and that's what like you said it was just a pure attraction and love and she was still jealous of the idea of her husband transgressing I mean that scene

where she goes and has dinner with Big Swiss and her husband yeah that's wild isn't it I loved that bit. I loved it as well. This is really... And when she gets drunk, doesn't it? She microdises.

She microdoses. And their dog is licking her foot under the table. There was a moment after she's listened to the therapy session where Flavia is talking about her horrific assault. Where Greta talks, imagines how she would have reacted in her 20s. And I thought it was so funny in how dark it was, but how truthful. I found it. And I think that's what I kept finding in this book is that it wasn't trying to be silly. Yeah.

In its bigness, it was trying to be more truthful. Yeah. So, for instance, how people behave in the bedroom. The example she uses is like, okay, so Greta had only learned to say no, like a couple of years ago. I thought that was very funny. So of a 45-year-old character. I'm 42. And also, like, really truthful.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a really sad reflection of reality, but that is something probably lots of people. But she basically was imagining. I was imagining, you know, if someone was trying to sort of her possibly going to rape her, how she might pretend that she had a yeast infection and then describe the colour of the discharge. And if that didn't put them off, maybe they'll leave you alone. They're really rich characters, both of them. And I think, you know what, I mean, I don't think they're aspirational, but I fell in love with both of them.

Like, I didn't want to be them, but I absolutely wanted to be their friends and hear about what was happening with them. Like, I wanted to not be in that circle. And like, Sabine, the crazy woman that she's living with, I was like, oh, I'd love to visit. I want to have a phagrosy. I want to have a fagrosy. Yeah. Yeah. And it was, you know, the secrets that everyone's holding.

Sabine's got secrets. Greta's got secrets. And it was the idea of people being so honest. And Greta and Swiss are so honest. But then also they're not because Swiss is lying about her in the therapy session. So it's like, you know, it's so interesting. They just felt so alive to me.

Yeah, they did. Yeah. And I think sometimes lives that probably aren't very fun to live can look really alive from the outside. I definitely wanted to like, I said, know them, but I didn't want to be them. I was like, this sounds really stressful. It's so interesting how you're saying that. because I, as I said, she was when I first tried, I'd recently listened to the episode of this with the brilliant Monica Hisei.

And it's sort of that energy of, Greta has that energy of someone that has recently left a relationship. Yeah. And has that like, I'm going to do what I want to do. Like, I'm kind of wild. I'm like really, I'm really holding on to this sort of madness. Freedom that have clawed my way out of. Yeah.

There's like an openness that is sort of, you know, when everything, as you guys were saying with the episode, with Monica like when everything's out there you're sort of completely shameless and no I don't mean that in a bad way because you're like I'm so broken like I don't care what you know I don't care that I'm crying in front of you because I've got nothing else

yeah there's this line that's one for about Big Swiss in the description of her her only need seemingly was to satisfy her own curiosity and that's the kind of thing that makes me go everything I'm doing in my life is wrong I should be doing this even though it's not very practical but I wonder if this is why

stand-up is so alluring because you get to write this biography of yourself where you said the right thing or you said something, you make stuff up, you make a sort of mythical version of yourself that's slightly bigger and much better, I don't know if you agree,

and then you keep telling people, hoping they'll believe you. Until it becomes true in a way, until you match the stage version. And there are comics whose on stage persona is more fully rounded than them. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

I've met those ones, yeah. Jesus. But it's funny, isn't it? I remember when I was thinking, I'm quite confident on stage and quite bombastic and I sort of really march around the stage and I'm very big. And I remember going on dates with girls who had seen me at a gig or had seen me on a thing. And I could tell after about half an hour they were quite disappointed. I remember thinking like you thought you were going out with that version.

And actually the version that you've got is this like, like I'm on a date and I'm slightly more nervous and I'm being a bit. weird actually because I don't really know I'm not this confident person that you thought of that famous quote Rita Hayworth quote which goes they go to bed with Gilda and they wake up with Rita and it's like they it's the film the sexiest woman in the world and they wake up

I'm obviously just a human and they're like oh it's like because I can never live up to that yeah also it would be so rude what they think they want which is a show you know it's not enjoyable you got a mic out don't do your stuff on me a Pisa Express is like walking around the table

I don't have dates that's Pizza Express. Yay! You say that. Back in the day, two for one about today's. Yeah, I don't want to ruin the ending, but that's what's interesting. I don't know if we can talk about it. Surely you can just say spoiler alert.

Spoiler alert, fast forward this bit, that I found the ending a bit sad for Big Swiss, and that's when I found that interesting that Greta to me felt free at the end, and Big Swiss really didn't. It felt like she was locked into another level of trauma. And I was a bit surprised, I suppose, which is good writing, that Greta, you sort of leave her at the end and you feel like something has changed and she's worked through. But with Big Swiss, I was like, I feel like you're stuck in the same because of the incident that happens towards the end.

And that's sort of what confirms to me that so much of her is an act. Yes, yes. You know, all of this, the coldness, the I don't care. Because it feels like she'll always be there. Yeah, yeah. She's like just playing, playing this version of what she wishes she could be. Because she looks that way as well because she is tall and blonde and beautiful. You can be cold and aloof because the world will still visit you, you know.

Yeah, and because that way that she doesn't have to, I don't know that she's ever going to totally process what happened to her. Also, some things you can't. I mean, I think. Yeah, totally. It felt like Greta had taken like a positive step forward. Yeah. Which sort of. It felt unfair in a way to me.

That's how I felt. I felt like Big Swiss had been kind of, I don't know, I guess Greta had sort of, because of the imbalance, because of the fact that it was always sort of built on a lie. Yeah. Greta comes off better in the end. Yeah, and Greta is free. And Big Swiss is even more trapped. Yeah, she's more trapped. She, you know, she's in a marriage, but I don't know that she's as honest with her husband as she is with Greta.

And it feels like she's been brave enough to go, here I am. in every way. And now in a different way, there's been an abuse of, like, her privacy. Yeah, yeah. So if anything, she's going to be colder. Yeah. Like, I think Big Swiss has been left colder by the relationship.

And Greta has been left with more options, with a freedom. I guess, yeah, by being caught out and people be dealing with her kindly, rather than she being actually punished, like, oh, her employer, then gives her therapy. Yeah. Which is so integral to... And which is actually helpful after laughing about him for the whole book.

You realise, oh, he's actually helping her. She actually does need. At the end, you're like, oh, he's actually useful. Or in that instance, it was. And that, for me as well, what I thought was, it's interesting that we match trauma. Oh, they both had these traumatic events. But it actually, it felt like Greta had something

she could work through. Obviously, her mother taking her in life is huge and awful, horrific. But what Big Swiss had been done for... that I guess was such a violent, a different kind of violent trauma. And actually they weren't equal. And Big Swiss couldn't just like start to learn to grow her life around it. It was, I was like, oh, they're not equal.

Well, I guess there's a fear element. Yeah, yeah. Which, you know, which I think would be overwhelming. I've not had a grief, anything like what Greta has, but it happened and then, you know, there has been days since it. I suppose when you have experienced that sort of violent thing. Yeah. Like, Greta can't lose her mum.

again. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But what happened to Big Swiss? And in the book feels... Yeah, it is, you know, the person who did it is out of prison. And so I guess that it's... I just don't know why she hasn't moved. I also had that thought.

But then the book wouldn't be written. They would never have messaged other guys. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, God, it was a really good book. Like, I really enjoyed it and I really felt as well. I immediately put it down as like, oh, I can see why that's done so well. Because I felt like it was something I hadn't read before. It felt fresh.

Yeah. And it felt like a really interesting, and the people in the world and all of it. And again, I was like, oh, that should be a television series. Like, I feel that I like them more after our chat. I started off being like, oh, these two women. And now I've got a bit more sympathy for them. I was trying to find a page, she talked about blondes.

She does have a thing about how people look at you if you're blonde. Oh, yeah, she does. Do you find that, Sarah? Have you ever had dark hair? Yeah. And do you think people treat you differently if you're blonde? Yeah. Well, actually, it's the same as being in your 40s where they don't look at you.

When you're young and you've got blonde hair, they look at you. And not that that's necessarily a nice thing. No. It's like being famous. It's like being famous in shops and on the bus, which makes you feel really self-conscious. And then if you've got dark hair or you've aged, they stop. This is what I love this description about, Pinyon. He'd vacationed abroad.

His beverage of choice was iced black coffee. Grette of thought of him as debonair, a word that meant more to her than simply charmed. and confident and applied more to dogs than to men. Pinyon took pleasure in most things but wasn't overly attached or committed to any one thing. Not even Greta, not even living. And I've written how I'd like to be. I love black coffee. I'd love to be debonair and not care.

Pinyon. Pinyon is aspirational. He is aspirational. I will give you that. He's aspirational. If he had blonde hair, he'd have it all. I think that could be our last line. Yeah. Susie, thank you so much.

Thank you so much. It was so nice to time. talk to you. Thank you. Also, kind of just very quickly say, but you're dyslexic. Yes.

And I think it's really important to say that because sometimes people contact us and reading can be such a chore for some people or something they've been put off because of things like dyslexia. I wear pink glasses. Yeah, you said that's game changer. Yeah, it really helps.

I'm really into reading but it's quite a recent thing because I, for a long time, I would be sort of like, oh God, that's going to take me forever. and I'd really like put a constraint on myself about reading but in recent years I read loads now and I think if you're someone that is dyslexic

and you feel like that it's good to remind yourself that like no one's timing you. Yeah, yeah, take as long as you need. And pink glasses help. And reading is supposed to be pleasurable not having a go at yourself. Yeah, yeah. And they look pretty cool.

And I'm kind of a cool, dear. Thank you so much for reading with us. It's my pleasure. I really enjoyed reading with me. Thank you for listening to the weird. My novel Weirdo and Carriads book, You Are Not Alone, are both available now. I've also got a live event at the South Bank Centre coming up in May. Check out our Instagram at Sarah and Carriads Weirdo's Book Club for the upcoming books we're going to be discussing.

Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you.