Sara & Cariad's Weirdos Book Club - Butter by Asako Yuzuki

Episode Date: June 20, 2024

This week's book guest is Butter by Asako Yuzuki.Sara and Cariad discuss dairy products, ramen, soya sauce, not murdering, misogyny and Pot Noodles. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you!Trigger warning: In this episode we discuss eating disorders, weight loss, fat phobia and generally disordered eating.Butter by Asako Yuzuki is available to buy here or on Apple Books here. Sara’s debut novel Weirdo is published by Faber & Faber and is available to buy here.Cariad’s book You Are Not Alone is published by Bloomsbury and is available to buy here.Follow Sara & Cariad’s Weirdos Book Club on Instagram @saraandcariadsweirdosbookclub and Twitter @weirdosbookclub Recorded by Naomi Parnell and edited by Aniya Das for Plosive.Artwork by Welcome Studio.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I'm Sarah Pasco. Hello, I'm Carriad Lloyd. And we're weird about books. We love to read. We read too much. We talk too much. About the too much that we've read. Which is why we've created the Weirdo's Book Club.

Join us. A space for the lonely outsider to feel accepted and appreciated. A place for the person who'd love to be in a real book club, but it doesn't like wine or nibbles. Or being around other people. Is that you? Join us. Check out our Instagram at Sarah and Carriads Weirdos Book Club for the upcoming books we're going to be discussing. You can read along and share your opinions.

Or just skulk around in your raincoat like the weirdo you are. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you. This week's book guest is Butter by Asako Yuzuki. What's it about? Well, it's about a woman accused of murder and the journalist who's sent to interview her, plus a lot of food. What qualifies it for the weirdos book club? Well, it's a vegan nightmare.

In this episode we discuss. Dairy products. Raman. Soy sauce. Not murdering. Misogyny. And pot noodles. Trigger warning.

in this episode we discuss eating disorders, weight loss, fat phobia and generally disordered eating. Fasca! Carriad Lloyd! This is how we're going to start all shows. Feels quiet just with the two of us. Yeah, I know, we've just recorded one with the guests and now it feels a bit quiet, doesn't it?

Normally we do it the other way around. We do us first. And then get excited. And then get excited. New person. Rather than just missing our guest. We are talking about butter by Asakow Yuzuki, the international bestseller, translated by Polly Barton.

So this was the book that when we did our episode, right, at the end of the year about all the books coming up, I had been sent a proof of this one and I thought this is a bit of me. Yeah. Because the description was a gourmet chef and the serial murderer, who I thought were different people, but they're the same person. A gourmet chef and serial murderer with a taste for life's luxuries, a journalist with an appetite for a good story, a shocking gastronomic exchange. And I thought, wow, that sounds fantastic. And the quote on the back that won me over were,

there are two things I simply cannot tolerate feminists and margarine. Same as you. Yeah. I can't tolerate margarine. Can't you? Well, this book couldn't be more perfectly. Exactly, because I grew up in a household having dairy-free organic spread, yet no one in my house is allergic to dairy.

Yeah. So was it a calorie thing? Yeah, my mom was like, oh, it's healthy. Fat was really demonized for a while. Fat was demonized. We are the generation of mothers who... Would rather have hydrogenated spread. Yeah. They thought fat was bad, buttered.

bad and then it wasn't until I was married. Yes. Basically, I'm married to a 1950s housewife. And he was like, you know, butter is better for you than this horrible chemical margarine. And then if you've only grown up with dairy-free organic spread, you obviously don't understand taste. No. And so when you taste butter, you're like, what the fuck?

This is this. So it was, yes, I have lived this book. Yes. Yes, I do now hate margarine or any, like, low-fat products. It's like, grew up with having to eat low-fat stuff. Butter and toast is fine, guys. It's better for you, no trans fats. Anyway, probably someone will argue with us about that.

And this is not a cooking podcast, so if you want facts about spreads, go to someone else. Probably one of the Van Toulikins will sort you out. Who's that? Who does that ultra-process stuff? Oh, yeah, yeah. So this book, as you said, is about a serial, a woman accused of serial murder. Yep. Who is called Karji, Padji, who is accused of murder.

Yep. She's in prison. She's in prison. and then now this I keep getting these two names because characters with two very similar names two best friends with basically Rika and RICO. Yeah. Ryko is

She's quit her job. Yes, she was a very important, she's a PR person but she's now trying to get pregnant, married and cooking at home. Yeah, she's obsessed with cooking. She's a great cook. Rika is our main character. She's a journalist.

She gets interested in the Kaji case and no one has had an proper interview with this woman. She said no to all. journalists. Yeah, she's said no to journalists and she's accused of murdering all these men. And what's very unusual for Japanese culture is that she is bigger than normal. She sounds to like, and actually this is maybe, not even a trigger warning, just this book is so much about the negatives of putting on weight, how society treats you if you putting on weight. But when they physically describe someone putting on weight, like it's a few kilograms. We're not talking about people who

have to be airlifted out of their houses. It's a big thing in Japan. She sounds like a size 14. Yeah, she was a massive thing. It was a massive thing in this case that she wasn't traditionally beautiful enough to be murdering men. So these men were, this sort of story behind her, the murders is these men are in love with her. And she cooks this amazing food for them and she ends up killing them. But the press have done a horrible thing saying, why were they in love with this? She's so fat, basically. And it's based on a true story.

So it's all inspired by the Konkatsu killer. Yes. who similarly is not traditionally what society would call beautiful? Especially Japanese society. Okay, right. So that's different, isn't it? Yes. So I would say, not my limited experience of having Japanese family and been to Japan,

they have a thing where you should always finish a meal 80% full. It is rude to be 100% full. So you should, it's fine to leave something. Like that's not rude. So that's good, it's good manners because like some other countries where they have to keep serving you if you keep eating all your food. Yeah, they will keep serving you. some food left on your place. And also it's very much like, it's greed is a really like awful thing. So to like keep eating food is like, why, why you're stuffing your face? So restraint is considered.

Restrain is like the high quality is valued. Okay. And you leave a meal 80% for that's healthy. That's considered healthy. Like the idea that you eat, you know, that kind of like, oh, I'm stuffed. It's like, why would you do that to your body? So they don't understand sort of binging and purging. No. And emotional eating. Yeah. Well, I think they obviously do. have that. And also, maybe this is a stupid thing to say, but I'm going to say, like, physically, people in Japan are much smaller. Like, I was big, Japan, as in tall and considered wide. And I am quite a short person in this country. I was, like, medium to large in Japan. So I would go and try on, like, petite small, like I would hear. Because you're a miniscule. Well,

you're a grain of rice. I'm a grain of rice. Not as, not as much as I used to be, but back in the day before kids, I was a grain of rice then, definitely. And I would try something on, and I'd be like, oh my God, in this country I'm considered medium to large. Yeah. Their idea of what small is very different to a British idea. Anyone who has bought cheap clothes on the internet from Asia knows. Has had that thing. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. Thinking dull clothes have turned out. So for Karji to be, yeah, this is the other thing that's, I think, important to caveat. Like, they consider, they talk about her. They use the word overweight and fat. People judge her very much. Yeah. But as you said, she's probably actually about 14 to 16.

Yes. It wouldn't be judged as overweight here. Yes. And it wouldn't, and it wouldn't be a big part of it. It wouldn't be a big part of the case. No. Like when Rose West was arrested, it's about her crimes, not like, oh, look at her in her jeans. Although they are focusing on it because the crime is all this food base that she fed them up and she went to expensive restaurants.

So food and overeating is involved in her. And pleasure, food and sex, being connected. And the character of Riker also puts on weights because she starts eating the, the kind of food that the murderer was making. She becomes interested in it. And so it's a couple of kilograms, but characters keep mentioning it. She is aware of it.

Other characters mention it. Her boyfriend literally says, you've got big. You've let yourself go. And she's got up to like... And her best friend, who's apparently this amazing friend also has a big problem with it.

Well, it's definitely a thing that she, I feel she's talking about Asaqa Yuzuki that in Japan it's commented on. Like if you put any weight on it, it's seen as your life. letting your community down. There's something wrong with you. You're depressed.

It's not okay. I just wanted to make sure that anyone who's listening to podcasts, thinking about reading it knows that it's just so recurrent in the book. If that is an issue for you and it's an issue for lots of people. Yes, I agree. It's really, really common. The idea, oh God, you just don't want someone shoving stuff into your head all the time about or if you eat a bit of butter and suddenly you're a kilogram bigger.

I would definitely caveat that as any kind of eating disorder or deliciously this book. Yeah. makes you want to eat, while also almost in direct every paragraph that was like, this sumptuous meal and this umami taste, look at this, look at this fat cow. So honestly, if someone has any issues with that or, yeah, and that's so many people, I would say give it, you have to give it a swerve because it isn't a balanced book that's going to treat you delicately. Yeah, yeah, definitely it's triggering.

But I would also say I would approach it from the point of view of it's talking about, a very different culture. Yeah. Unless you're Japanese. Unless you're Japanese. And then it's your culture. That's yours. But yeah, I do think it's very much talking about a culture that is so different to ours.

And the big thing about food in this book is there's Japanese food, which is very healthy. And what Karji does is add European flavors to things. So she's adding butter to things and cream and cream. And she's making things taste great. And Asako is kind of highlighting, like, how much Japanese culture is. about thinness and healthiness and being correct and good and restrained. And European sensibilities are very different. And it's seen as such a shock that this woman is overeating and cooking turkey

and which, you know, like has to be frozen and shipped for like three months to get there. So yes, I agree with you. Definitely be aware. I've never been so hungry as reading this book. Oh, really? Well, food. So someone who doesn't like butter, this book is so gross. Interesting.

I wondered if you would take that right. Because I was licking my lipsie. Even though it was called butter and has a cow on the front. Delicious. And some blood. Stupid old Pasco, who obviously I'm vegetarian, vegan. I don't. If you didn't tweak, how meaty and butter it would be?

For a long period of time of never, ever having butter. And when I did try a butter again when I was pregnant, it tastes of grass. It tastes of off. You just moved like a cow. How are you? So nice. So I thought it's disgusting. It tastes curdled.

It doesn't taste healthy. Milk, obviously, like, cow. cow's milk smells disgusting. Yeah. To you. To you. If you haven't had it for years and years, and then if you have it accidentally in something,

like if I have my husband's coffee by accident, you know, they pass this the wrong ones. So the descriptions of it I found so revolting. It's so funny because I absolutely adored every description. Did you? I was like, bring me the ramen with butter. When it said a bit of rice with a bit of soy sauce on it, I'd be like, oh, and then she'd go,

and a lump of butter. Oh my God. And she talks about the butter melting on the noodles and the sort. And I was like, I literally was like, can I go and make this now? Did you? Would you? I would go and make butter, soy sauce, sauce, noodles. That sounded amazing.

But you can. And then you can murder a man. And then I write a book about a woman. You put on a kilogram. Yeah. How much is a kilogram? I can't understand kilograms. It's two and a half pounds.

It's not a lot. It's not a lot. Well, you know what? Because I really struggle with kilograms numbers. So when they were discussing her weight, I did not click that you're right. Eight kilograms isn't even too stone. God, they're really giving her shit for nothing, aren't they about that? Wow, I really do.

I was like, imagine she'd be on two stone. You'd be wearing the same trousers. They'd just be a bit tighter. She wasn't buying a new wardrobe. Yeah, yeah, okay. What happens to Rika the journalist is her life implodes by this influence. So, as we said, she starts interviewing Kaji. Before that, she's eating takeaways.

You get on the go. And lots of convenience store food. Convenience store food. Because I felt like that was such a good precursor. Oh, they're a very good match. Aren't they? Convenient store woman, for starter. This for Mainz.

Yeah. Yeah, so she's having microwave food. She doesn't use her oven. She doesn't use her kitchen. And until she interviews Karji, and Karji kind of mocks her for not being a proper woman. Yeah. So we should say this sentence about feminists and Marjorine comes from her first meeting. Yeah.

And Karji is a really interesting character. Like she, yeah, so she is overweight, considered in her society. She's obsessed with cooking. She's an amazing cook. She's had all these boyfriends. She's a pleasureist. But she's also deeply, deeply. sexist and hates women, hates them. Yes. It says she dislikes women, so she has no friends. She has no friends and

she thinks women are lazy and they don't make the effort to look beautiful and cook for their husbands. And Rika is actually much more feminist and she has a job and she works. A lot of the book is a feminist debate. Yes. There's a lot of polemic in there as well as plot. I remember it was a few weeks ago And you were saying, oh, I'm still making my way through butter. Yeah, the book. And I did, you know what, as I was making my way through it myself. Yeah. So I looked at the length of it and thought, you know, we're talking four,

four 50 pages. Yeah, but it's dense. It's dense. I kept thinking of puns based on food because I was having difficulty digesting this book that I found to be quite. I thought you'd be into the murder. Are you found stodgy? There was not enough murder.

It was not, which is why I liked it. There was no murder. To the point that the murders were kind of denied. in, oh, they died of sadness when she changed her mind about them. That's not a murder. Carriott, by the way. P.D. James has never written a very long book where, oh, who went off him, so he died. I literally, can I tell you?

When I found out she was a murderer, I was like, oh, shit, this book's about murder. And then three-go-d-way-through-way, I thought, oh, there's been a lovely lack of murder. That's really great. Whereas I was, like, chapter six going, oh, it. Okay. It literally puts, like, bloody fingerprints on the front. Yeah, it's not a murder book. It's absolutely not. It's, there's a lot of polemic about feminism. I tell you the point where I sort of lost it with this book.

Oh, he did not like it. No. It's the first one. And I don't mean that as in a criticism of the work, obviously, it is a very, very well-written, well-thought-out. This is not an accident. The book is what it is. But what it is, I don't like. And my veganism makes sense of that.

Because you couldn't have a book that loved butter more. Yeah. It loves butter more than murder. Yeah. And that's why I love it. that's why I enjoyed it, I'd say, because I hate, I don't like reading about murder. Unless it's a cow. Unless it's a cow.

Fine. Give me that beef. If it's a cow murdering another cow, I might feel sad, actually, if it was cows murdering cows. Unless you got to eat the corpses. Yeah, if I get to eat the corpse at the end. If me and the cow murder sit down and we eat the cow, they've murdered, I wasn't involved. And I was really so relieved there wasn't much murdering it.

But I did think halfway through, I bet Sarah will be annoyed by the luck. Here's the scene I then realized, if this book takes any more. So Curetus turns. It was when they went to a farmer's yard in the murderer's, who's not a murderer's hometown. Yeah, to investigate her. And then they're in a cow shed. And I'm like, yeah, I get it. It's about milk.

It's about butter. And then Raiko, the friend, she's stroking a cow because she wants to get pregnant. And then the main character, Rika, remembers that milk is made of blood. Very labours. As soon we should say breast milk, as in like, breast milk is made from the blood. cow's blood becomes the milk and the same in the human body. And so it's like, oh, this is almost a murdery book because, oh, you know, this bloodshed of these murders and this book is about butter.

And it was just so heavy. That's it. I found it so hard to digest. You're just smiling at me. No, no, I'm just interested. I'm like, hmm, that's really interesting because I, yeah, I didn't, I didn't have that reaction. I just found it. I then thought, I just needed the story to hook me and it didn't.

Yeah. I never needed to know what's going to happen next. It never got you into the category. When actually got to the end. Yeah. And that was the end in. Yeah. I was like, all this time I've been reading you.

All this time. For me? It's a heavy book. How many meals do you think are described in here? Oh my God. 200? Yeah. 200 meals.

200 courses of food you don't want. Shove down your stomach. Oh, you want it. You want that food so badly. Fuck. The food sounds so good. Every time she's cooking, you're like, oh my God. The noodles.

There was one scene where someone was making themselves like a sort of boil, like a pot noodle. And I was like, yeah, okay. For the first time, I do fancy a pot noodle. I want to find something about the food, because I didn't really... So they, I mean, all the characters eat out. And even if she's just going into work, she takes a sandwich. And quite often there is some...

It's always a metaphor, what she's eating, what the other characters are eating. Eating, this is Asaka. Eating was fundamentally an individual and egoistic compulsion. Raika was starting to realise. A gourmand was ultimately a seeker of the truth. You could wrap up their mission in all kinds of fancy language, but they were simply confronting their desire. day in and day out. As you learn to cook, you become increasingly able to shut out the outside world

and create a fortress within your own spirit. You hunted down your prey, using fire and blades to fashion them into the form you desired. Now, I think you have to love food to understand where she's coming from. And I'm someone who didn't used to love food, but I am married to a man who would marry food if he wasn't married to me. Like, he loves cooking in the way that this woman I can see him with a loaf of bread actually. I always left me. Covered in butter. Yes.

And I have been on a long journey with him of understanding that food can be very lovely and and means love, whereas I definitely, dairy-free, spread, don't come from a world with food equaled love at all. And so for me, I think if I didn't have the understanding that I've had with my husband,

who is so food-obsessed, I would have had similar reaction, but I now understand. and I, he's made me into a gourmet. I loved what she was talking about, but it's like I had too much piled on my plate. She's another eating metaphor. It was like she would serve up something very wise,

but then there would be four other side dishes of other points and other things. And I would think, this is too much for me to digest. I just felt like I was constantly just getting, and here's another thing about feminism. And then sometimes they weren't, some things were astute and some things I thought were complete rubbish. And again, that could be cultural.

I have to say I felt it was, the translation was brilliant because it felt Japanese. But it felt so, like, it felt like really, it felt like written in Japanese, the way she phrased things. And I really was like, oh, this, I feel like I'm, that's what I felt for ages. It took me ages to get into it. Because I was like, why is, I feel like I'm struggling to understand it. And I was like, this is a damn good translation. They're not, it's not giving you soft English. It's making you work.

So, Rikramako, we find out they know each other at school. First of all, they're just really great friends, you know. Her prince. Yeah. And then she was like sort of a boyish girl at school and all the girls had a crush on her. And then it turns out that her sort of a friend who was really happy married at the beginning and a really good cook, now through sort of her infertility treatment, she has been going to visit the murderer. And now she's sort of run away to live with a potential other murderer.

And she's in love with her best friend and doesn't want to lose her. And she's jealous of her. And that's why she went to see the murderer. And it's like, how many characters is this woman? She's a multifaceted person. But it was none of it felt based in anything true. I really loved it until, and it's like, spoiler, where the narrator changed, I threw the book down and said to Ben, my husband, what the fuck?

And he said what? He said, this book has just done something so mad. But he's actually been doing that a few times. It had done those sort of odd swarves and then that was just a very, very big one. That was a big swerve. Yeah. I was like, what? Yeah.

Because we've been with Rika the whole time. Yeah. Hundreds and hundreds of days of reading. I'm with Rika and her noodles. Absolutely with her. And I also, I do love Japanese food. So that's the other thing. I'm very happy for this.

You could have read a cookbook. I've read Japanese cookbooks. It's very difficult to make Japanese food. It's really hard to make good Japanese food. Oh, sorry, I just read another brilliant quote. The quickest way for a modern Japanese woman to gain the love of a man is to become corpse-like. The kind of men who want those women are dead themselves.

Indeed, it's because they're dead that they're so terrified of anyone with a sense of life about them. If those men hadn't met me, if I hadn't rejected them, they'd quite probably have died anyway. They were never really here to begin with. That's Karji, the moment. murder and talking. I loved Katja. I thought her...

Again, I thought she was very inconsistent. Yeah, I didn't mind that. We get told, you know, she doesn't have female friends. Oh, no, she desperately wants female friends. Or, no, no, she doesn't like you. She's done this now. Oh, but she does it because she's like this other character. And the sister then going, no, but she's really maternal.

They just changed what she was so much. I just didn't have a sense. I thought you were getting like all different shades of this person. And also, to be fair, she would say one thing. And it was not true. Like, she's a complete fantasist. And I thought that was really interesting. What I really loved about it was how Kaji, the murderer, in interviews with Rika, manipulated her.

I thought that was brilliant that without meaning to, she was like controlling Rika, telling Rika what to do. Rika felt diminished. She felt like she wasn't proper. She starts eating all the food that Kaji tells her. And then her best friend RICO is like, she's destroying you. Can you not see? And I love that this character lost themselves to an interview. Yes.

It's then as Rika starts standing up to this. bully, essentially, you realize she is lonely. She does want friends, whereas what Kaji says and what Kaji does are completely different things. Yeah. So I didn't see that's inconsistent. I saw that someone in complete denial, like this woman is completely mad. I thought her family in meeting her mother and sister made her inconsistent.

It felt that like then, I didn't feel like an author was telling me very clearly the murderer would like to be seen as this. But then did you think she was, again, people are not what they say they are? Yeah. So the mum and sister were like, she was this, she was this. And then when Rika and RICO are there for a bit longer, they're like, they're lying about that. This house is disgusting.

Oh, and then this whole plot line about mothers who don't cook properly for their children. Which is a big, yeah, this thing about Japanese culture. Yeah, yeah. Again, there's a big thing of, like, working mothers and, like, children walking home and, like, that's the guilt around that. And, yeah, I thought it was really interesting of, like, how much, how much was that, like, that man, her boyfriend had, like, held on to his mom not cooking for him.

And then we could be able to say, like, your mom did her best. Yeah. It's like I felt like everyone presents something. So every single character, Raiko included, presents something. This is who I am. And then you find out they're not, which again, I think maybe is quite Japanese culture of like you present very together. I've got no problems.

Everything's fine. We don't talk about stuff. And then what Rika was doing, I felt, was like, it's not true. This isn't who we are. This isn't like Japanese, our culture is lying to us. We don't have to be that way. We can seek pleasure in the way that Karji is talking.

about. Which is something she does with her boyfriend. So her boyfriend, Makoto. So they have this odd sort of relationship which almost seems sexless where he sort of comes over for convenience reasons and she doesn't cook for him and when she does offer to his distrustful, they've been together for a while. Yeah, but they're not intimate. They don't talk to each other very much. She doesn't tell him what she's doing. Yeah. And then until she's instructed by the murderer to eat some noodles from particular place after she's had sex. She has to seduce her boyfriend. Yeah. to get to go and eat these noodles. You look hungry again.

Those noodles sounded so good. Yeah. I was like, I was like, wow, that looks amazing. Yeah, and I think, again, I feel like I don't, obviously, I'm not Japanese. I have some access to Japanese culture. But I feel like what she was rebelling against and talking about is the very, very repressed, restrained Japanese culture. And like, so Kaji's saying that, hire a hotel, go and have sex and then go and eat noodles at this specific place by yourself. Yeah.

It's a really rebellious act. And it's so beautifully written because it was about freedom. It was about the freedom of leaving someone else and then being alone and going to eat exactly what you want in that moment. It's like steaming hot noodles and soup when it's very, very cold outside. I can't tell you much I love Japanese food. I love Japanese food so much. But it was a very interesting sex scene because it was someone describing a sex scene with someone when they never ever let themselves become that aroused or that into it as a couple. And that's the person that.

Yeah. you know, if we use the words like permitted or allowed, but even then there was so much restraint. So that's why I like the translation, because I really felt you felt the restraint. You felt like even when she's talking about, Ryko has given up her job to have a baby, and like it's kind of like that's what you have to do.

And everyone kind of respects Rika because she's not married, she's not having kids, therefore she can work in this male office. The sexism is so heavy. What I thought was interesting is it's so clearly a Japanese author they're writing for a Japanese audience. And actually, with the Raikko's relationship, she's having fertility treatment and then we find out her and her husband aren't sleeping together. Yeah, and he won't even go for any treatment.

Yeah. So it's sort of like fertility treatment, but you don't know if sex would work because they're sexless, which coming back to the thing that keeps being told is because of gender roles and, yeah, societal expectations. And that's why I think the food is, I think it's such a good metaphor. Because Japanese food is very healthy and light and you're not supposed to eat enough of it. And then there's this European cooking. which is like heavy and butter and cream and all the French cooking.

And so for Cardi to start going to this expensive food school where they teach this European cooking and mingling these cultures, that's what I think, like, this woman is doing everything that's not permitted in society. And then she ends up murdering people. And I think that's something really interesting if you let it just be the culture that it, do you know what I mean? Like I think you almost can't, I couldn't be like, well, that doesn't make sense. on this because I was like, it's like a completely different world.

So here we go. It's when you add in the fact that she was friends with a paedophile before all this, it's the murderer. It's the bad story stuff, yes. Yeah. That's the stuff that I found confusing because we didn't need it. This author has been telling me some very important things, and I'm hanging on there every word to understand.

Why is the paedophile here? Why is the paedophile here again? Now you say that. I can see that. But, you know, when you just, because I was like, oh, I don't. It's because I found it at a studgy read. That's why it bothered me because I wasn't just, you know, going like, oh, I love it. I had that thing and I hate doing it.

and maybe it's worse because we have a podcast. Yeah. That I was sort of a third from the end going, oh, come on. Come on. I know what you mean about like the backstory of Carji. Asako, I would say, definitely got lost. I think I got lost.

But didn't bother me so much. When extra characters kept being added, because it was just, it was those backstory. And then there was extra people at the office. And then there was like this plot with like someone in the office thinks that her and Chinoy and this older man. And he's like, yeah.

And he's this other worker. thought that he'd respected her, but actually he doesn't because she's using this older man. So the older man starts giving all of his hints to him. And then they're all living in a flat together on futons. That's quite common. Yeah. But it was just too much stuff. And I was going, then the cooking school and then those characters were added in.

And I was like, right, who am I watching now? Yeah, I guess I feel like it was such a Tokyo book. Like, it's so like talking about city life. And, you know, they have this thing like, I'm going to get this wrong now. But like, there's a thing in Japan, especially in Tokyo called like salary men. who work so hard that they pass out on the trains. They work so hard. They either get drunk or they just fall asleep.

To the point of like on stairs going to a train. So imagine like going down to Xer Circus and just on the stairs as a man in a suit with the briefcase just passed out because he's so exhausted. And that's like normal. Like oh, as a salary man, that's why he like can't get up because he works so hard. And so like my favourite thing we tease my sister Norfolk, who it is Japanese, there's a Japanese saying, was it, the nail that goes above the board, be hammered back down.

And that's like said as like advice. Yeah. Like don't get, don't stand out from the crowd. Don't be different. You will be nailed back down and that is definitely your fault. And we like laugh about it with her because it's such like horrible saying. But they say it in like if you do something happens to you.

Like well, you did stand out from the crowd. So there you go. Like pride comes before a fall. And so I really felt like I know what you're saying about the amount of characters but I felt yeah, I guess I just I just didn't mind. I was interested them all. And I felt it was a bit cheesy when they all started living in a flat together. That I definitely was a bit like, what's happening here.

Because the writer had things to say about Japanese society and about the relationship to food, the relationship to work, the relationship to marriages, you know, there's the Shinoi's relationship with his daughter because she had so much to say. She had to keep bringing in characters to say it. And it's felt like that's why they were there. Yeah, I know what you mean. I didn't feel like that. I felt like I just felt like I was meeting this like a complete cast of people.

And in terms of the ending, did you feel like, oh, great, I'm happy for her? I felt a bit confused by the ending. No spoilers. But I did feel a bit like, oh, hmm, okay. I felt, I have to say, when the narrator changed three quarter to wait through, I definitely was like, ooh. And even though we went back to Rika, I was like, that for me started to wander a little bit. Yeah.

And I kind of agree with that visit to her hometown didn't really need it. And when she moved in with that guy, yeah. Yeah. So this is a real character. We've been told, is her friend from school, this is the fertility treatment. Oh, she's also the kind of person to get on a bullet train and go and live with a potential murderer. Yes. And to tidy up his house just so that the narrator can tell you, well, was there really any different cleaning his house to her husband's house?

Yeah. And it was all so she could say she was the same there as she was at home. Yeah. And then I wondered that's like a Japanese novel thing of like, again, the style. I was like, I wonder if this is a stuff, like I started looking at, she's written loads of books, Atiko, and I was like reading some of the plots of that and I was like, oh, is this a style of novel that we're just not, you're just not used to? Like, that's how their novels work in the way that that's like their theatre works, their music works. It's just different. And sometimes it's, you just can't translate a style over. I think that's really difficult. Yeah, it's just like, to them, that wouldn't be jarring. Because if this was British, it would just be poor writing. Yeah, well, it would be, I think it'd be a poor structural decision.

Yeah. But I think, like, I think her writing's good. It's interesting. It's been an international bestseller, though. Like, I do find that interesting, because it did feel so, so distinct to me. What am I saying? So not everyone agreed with you, Sarah. But I think...

Me and the internationals falling out again. Yeah, yeah. I do know what you're saying. It's funny, isn't it? Like, we're saying the same thing, but, like, it didn't bother me. Or maybe it's that a thing where it just wasn't as readable as I wanted it to be. I would say it's not readable. Yeah.

It isn't a readable book. And I can be the person who's in the wrong for that. No, no, not in the wrong. No, right. Just different voice. I think sometimes the reader can be wrong. I'll allow the reading. What is that?

I was saying, oh, the author is dead. That's what I was thinking. Maybe think of the author. No, no, I don't think you're wrong at all. I just think it's just funny, isn't it? Like, it's like when you meet a person, someone's like, they're so loud. And you're like, they're so loud. Like, it's just, I didn't mind when they went off.

Yeah. But I agree with it. I definitely thought, why is everyone going over there? And what is it a little bit like, when we read Y, N, And there were odd trips on that one Which bothered me so much And it didn't bother me because I really loved them Whereas this one I did lose the story

I did lose my caring thinking it was real The journey That's a really good comparison Because YN like when they started going mad I was like what is happening She was in a warehouse going up to different floors Yeah See I feel like this

It was a bit more grounded in reality Even though they were doing odd things It was like you sort of knew She's got a train somewhere I'm surprised she's done that Whereas with YN I was like What? It's weird the tree. What's happening? And I felt like that. I needed things to be like, I just don't know what's real. Whereas this, I was like, oh, it's real. It's a bit weird that they've all gone off for like a holiday to the murderous's hometown. But yeah. But I would say it's not readable. Like I found myself, I don't know. Like it's like a film with subtitles. You're having to like, okay, you can't just be like, oh, I'm enjoying this and turning a page. And actually maybe if I understood a lot more or had a sort of a secondary resource that was about this happens in Japan or the, it's,

This commentary is this kind of thing. But I'm interested to understand. Yeah. That's what I'm trying to say. But I think the food and veganism is really interesting because I am someone who didn't know anything about cooking. And now the amount of butter I consume is... It's a lot. Yeah.

Well, it's a lot. I mean, that is excessive in this book. So if it's something... Not in my house. Exactly. That's normal. So you're getting this little delicious. Yes.

Because, I mean, I was so bored of having butter described. Oh, I loved it. Yeah. I just loved it. I was like description of the food. I said to Ben, my eyes. I was like, oh, you've got to read this.

But also, I should say, I always hate food and books. You know, Nora Ephron has the recipes. I hated it, skip those pages. Dolly Alderton, whose book I love so much, they put cooking and it's like, oh, we all got to put recipes in things now. Why do you hate recipes and books? Because I eat pot noodles. Eureka.

I don't have, I actually don't want to slow down to have taste described to me. But why is that, that's funny. What's that boring about it to you? because the words will never taste like that won't do justice to taste I think maybe so you're like give me the food or tell me a story don't combine

yeah or just it's hard a little bit like describing music like music journalism is something I'm not going to listen to but then you wouldn't say that with like love no because romance or I would be interested

to how it feels to the author that would make sense but you're not interested in how the food feels how tastes to them no why is that because I can't taste it yeah but you're not interested you can't feel their love. Do you see what I mean? You're separating a sense. I don't watch tennis on TV,

but I like playing tennis. I think it's a great game. I've got no interest from watching other people play it. I agree with your own app, but I also hate playing it. Okay. So that's not a great. But like, you see what I'm saying? So you could, an author was telling you this is how it felt, this is how it felt to fell in love with this person. Yeah. And you're like, yes, tell me about it. This is how it felt to grow wings and then find out no one agree with me. Yeah. This is how it felt to have this ramen. You're not interested. No. And it's the same, it's just a different experience. But quite often, they're going the ramen. If a ramen is a metaphor of something else. Okay, you could use food as metaphor.

But if you're just describing soup, come on. But the soup is so wonderful. And it's like... That's enough. End of sentence. Let's talk about something else. The soup is so wonderful. Full stop.

But I think you're denying a sense. Because like the taste, and I, the reason I'm jumping on this is I used to do that. Because I was like, who kept, who kept, like I don't understand. I think it's it. I think it feels slow. I think it's probably exactly the, as you say that, I think it's boring because it's not to do the story. because I want the stimulation of story.

And actually I should slow down, just go, oh, is there a hint of cinema? But it is story. Yeah. Like, food is a story. But I didn't know this. Food is a story. It is, Sarah.

It is. Yeah. Sometimes. But lots of times it's just a baguette from pre. No, because people aren't eating that. There's people in this world, my husband, who will not eat that. And definitely people who aren't. Because food is so important to them.

So food is as important. But they still have sandwiches. Okay, but how do you feel about someone who's like, oh, I only read Andy McNabb? You'd be like, oh, your diet, your book diet's terrible. No, not necessarily. I would definitely know not to get them books for Christmas. But you see what I mean?

Like, if you're into food, so like with Ben, when we first met, I was like, the famous story, he said, why don't I make a pasta sauce? And I said, who are you? Lloyd Grossman? And he was like, what do you mean? I can make. and I had no idea you could make it.

I thought you had to get it in a jar. Well, I know about pasta sauce baking from you and Ben. Yeah, exactly. So Ben has taught, because Ben comes from a family that food is a language and a story, and it means something. Like the Dolmios. Like the Dolmios. I don't come from that.

So I feel like I've had to learn. And now I understand food because honestly, it's to me, like with reading, that some people go, oh, it's just books. And you're like, oh, it's not just books. But, like, they're different. Yeah. And if someone said to you, oh, I only read, again, not snobbery, but just again, if someone said, well, basic, it's all the same,

you'd be like, no, it's not. It would be like if someone said, I never read books, I go on Wikipedia and see what the plot was, and then that's the same as reading them. That's what, that's what, and you would feel like there's a world you're missing. You're not getting anything. You're just finding out what happens. Exactly. And that's how it is with people who love food, which I'm a new version.

So when they, the words of the description, descriptions, someone who likes food. They're reading the description of it. Yeah. And they're imagining all those things. Yes. Okay. I love that we've had to separate the food.

Just because it's food, we're not skipping that bit. It's good. Yeah, it's good. So what's happening to me? One, I love ramen. Two, I've had really, really, really good ramen, which is like mind blowing. So when she's describing the experience of adding the soy sauce and the butter, I'm like, I've never done that.

She's talking about simple. Whereas I'm just imagining that little fish that soy, soy, sauce comes in sometimes. I just think it's one of the best designs of anything ever. Don't you think that little soy sauce fish? It's good. I don't think we ever talk about it in society, but there's a little fish with soy sauce sauce in it. With little mouth. Yeah.

Japanese design, mate. Isn't it fantastic? They are amazing at design. Yeah. They will not take bad design. They're really good. Brilliant. But that, for me, I think it's interesting to not, like, the food stuff in this, I loved.

I loved her describing because I love Japanese food so much. Yeah. And it was, like, even talking about the, like, the Goza making, and then, like, when she makes the pound cake and like the way she's like turning it all together and adding the lemon. It's like, I think you have to love food and you have to understand that food can be a story. I couldn't watch the bear either. I'm realising I've got a big food problem. This is not the book for you.

Yeah. I've got a food problem. Ben, you know Ben, very judgmental. Yeah. Hard to get to watch things. We start watching the bear. I've never seen him so happy. He was like, it's cooking and a story.

Whereas I stopped watching it because it was like an advert for chopping. And I just couldn't bear it. I thought it's so annoying. There's too much food. Yeah, see, for some people, that's like someone saying there's too many books. Yeah. I can't listen to your podcast. You've got too many books in it.

That's fine. There was a moment where I bought you a jumper because of this book. Oh! It was quite in the beginning when it was talking about society's attitude to women. It said, in principle, all women should give themselves permission to demand good treatment, but the world made doing so profoundly difficult. I thought that was very beautiful and very sad. And then I sent you on Instagram, a jumper that I liked.

but I said, oh, it's too much. And then Sarah bought it from him. Because women deserve good treatment and they don't give it to themselves. There's a quote from Asako Yuzuki saying, Japanese women are required to be self-denying and hardworking and in the same breath to be feminine, soft and caring towards men. And that's what she was trying to write about. And she did, and that absolutely comes across.

And she said it's based on a real case. Yeah. And the Japanese media did exactly what they do to Karjian's book. So they completely focused on this woman's weight, the Konkatsu Killer, and she wasn't deemed attractive. And so it was a joke that these men had died, like, why did they fall for this fat ugly woman? And so she obviously was disgusted by that. But she's, you know, she has written so many books and had loads of stuff adapted for television, radio film.

Like, she's, oh my God, she's our age. Like, what she's done is very impressive. Does she cook? Does she have a husband? Because I cook and say I've got a husband. So take that, Uzuki. Yeah, I think if you have any interest in Japanese culture, or you like Japanese food, you will like this book.

Yeah. But I think, yeah, if food is or weight or anything, it is quite challenging for those things. So I can understand. There's a full discussion around lots and lots of issues, even in our culture, which has its differences. It's not like, oh, we're not shallow about women's appearances. And we don't think women should behave a certain way.

Women aren't still being told there's a correct way to be a mother. So I think there's so much in it that's really, really interesting and discussive. and it's great to have someone to talk to about it. I think I've got a food thing. I think you might have a problem with people chopping. People cooking, yeah. People cooking. Yeah.

But I feel like I had that until Ben made me understand. So I need to marry Ben. You need to marry Ben. He's unfortunately married to a loaf of bread now. Honestly, the way he talks about cooking, the way he cooks, has opened my mind to what you can actually do with food. So Steve really loves cooking. He spent seven hours getting a piece of lamb ready.

He'd love to talk to Ben about that. they're going to end up together. Too, tall, men. Just making amazing food. Well, we can just have our dairy-free spray. And our gluten-free toast. We're very happy. I guess, yeah, I don't see, that's the point, isn't it?

I see food as a necessity. It's a thing that you do. It's not part of the plot. But there is a world where it is as much as, yeah. You see that in your life. It's not part of the story. No, it's not. But some people really see food.

I miss as sandwiches. Food is part of the story. It is so meaningful. Oh, absolutely. That's the thing that I, never understood when people, oh God, yeah, talking about eating for. Yeah, pure joy. Yeah.

But not even pleasure, not even like, oh, this is nice, like utter, complete. There is no other point to this. Yeah. I don't have to add this much better. Also, or spend seven hours, but I'm going to because I can. Who's that guy, Jay Rainer? He's a great food writer. I once had to eat with him.

Yeah, I bet you, did you? Yeah. Yeah. We were doing the same book event for, um, Rory Bremna. And it was very interesting to discuss it with him because I just didn't care. And he kept trying to talk to me about, you know, vegan ways of doing things because he included some in his cookbook. And I was like, I'm still not going to do this. So there's no, don't talk to you about food is what we've established.

But other people are, like, this is real for them. But it's a really interesting. I wouldn't even even realise this about myself unless we were talking about a book. So again, it's reading saves a day. Reading saves the day. Reading saves the day. Guys. It's been emotional. And what adverts should we put on this podcast?

Wasabi? Wasab just was like, hey, I went out on Saturday night, and I saw fresh rasabi being grated. And it looks kind of like a giant asparagus and they have a special board and they grate it for you. And it was really good food. Awesome. I had some excellent sashimi as well. Oh, my God. Where was it?

Oh, shout out to Rocca in Soho, R OKA, kind of Asian fusion, been going for 20 years. This is the shit I know about now. I didn't used to know about food and restaurants. He's indoctrinated me into his religion. Bam. Yeah, of food. But I was like you. I didn't understand.

and now now I go out for meals with people and they go this is nice and I think this lamb is very undercooked that's the kind of thing I think I think that to myself I go this is nice

about airplane food other people are sending it back and I thought and I went out Friday night this zoo is too watery those are thoughts that I have you should go on celebrity master chef I would be amazing on celebrity master chef

I can't cook I'm all right but no I could eat it you judge celebrity master chef you're going straight to judging I love this I don't need me to cook John and Greg. Just give me the food.

Yeah, that's the kind of thing I think now. Because of him, because he's so into cooking. It's maybe aware of things. Maybe he should judge Mastership. Oh, he'd be great. He should go on Master's. He'd be great. If you like food, read this book.

If you're not so keen, not pass it. Pass it on. It's a brilliant book and I'm really, really glad I've read it. I just, there were points in it where I found it a struggle. If you're not into butter, you'll enjoy it less, probably. You'll enjoy it less. Thank you for listening to the Weirdo's Book Club. Sarah's novel Weirdo and My Book, and my book,

You Are Not Alone are both out in paperback and available to buy now. You can find out about all the upcoming books we're going to be discussing on our Instagram. And please get in touch if you've got a book recommendation for us at Sarah and Carriads Weirdo's Book Club. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading. We do.