Sara & Cariad's Weirdos Book Club - Come and Get It by Kiley Reid

Episode Date: May 9, 2024

This week's book guest is Come and Get It by Kiley Reid.Sara and Cariad discuss reviews, Arkansas, university life and crochet. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you!Come and Get It by Kiley Reid is available to buy here or on Apple Books here.Sara’s debut novel Weirdo is published by Faber & Faber and is available to buy here.Cariad’s book You Are Not Alone is published by Bloomsbury and is available to buy here.Follow Sara & Cariad’s Weirdos Book Club on Instagram @saraandcariadsweirdosbookclub and Twitter @weirdosbookclub Recorded and edited by Naomi Parnell for Plosive.Artwork by Welcome Studio.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Sarah Pasco. Hello, I'm Carriad Lloyd. And we're weird about books. We love to read. We read too much. We talk too much. About the too much that we've read. Which is why we've created the Weirdo's Book Club.

Join us. A space for the lonely outsider to feel accepted and appreciated. A place for the person who'd love to be in a real book club, but doesn't like wine or nibbles. Or being around other people. Is that you? Join us. Check out our Instagram at Sarah and Carriad's Weirdo's Book Club for the upcoming books we're going to be discussing. You can read along and share your opinions.

Or just skulk around in your raincoat like the weirdo you are. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you. This week's book guest is Come and Get It by Kylie Reid. What's it about? It's about a college professor researching a book which turns into an eavesdropping exercise and the fallout from that. What qualifies it for the weirdos book club?

Well, it examines the power dynamics created by wealth and status but through female relationships. In this episode, we discussed reviews. Arkansas. University Life, Crochet and The Secret. Hello, Sarah Pascoe. Hi. Hi.

We don't have a guest this week. It's a special Sarah and Carriad chat, fireside chat. Yeah. We've had such sort of A-list authors. Do I disappoint you? No, I went through my bookshel us the other day and I had like four copies of your book and I thought this looks embarrassing. We've got four copies of your book. Have you?

Because I've got the proof. Yeah, I've got proof. The hardback. And then, Steve and then, Steen and I both bought one at your book launch. So we've got two signed, proof, and unsigned. So when you see them on eBay? We are talking today about Kylie Reid's new book, Come and Get It.

You may be familiar with Kylie Reid because she's the author of the book, Such a Fun Age, that was a huge bestseller and also got nominated for the Booker in 2021, I think. Yeah, went to the Booker as well. Did it? I didn't know it went to the Booker, but obviously... I think later, I think it was big American bestseller,

and then ended up on the book. So it was one of those like, oh, cherry on the case. You got numbed for the booker. It's very rare that really, really popular books are then also literary sensations. Her first book. So this is her second fiction. So did you read, that was my first question, did you read such a fun age? Yes, I read such a fan age, loved it, really enjoyed it.

Yes. It's extremely of our time, prescient novel. And I really, yeah, I remember really enjoying it. So I was very excited. And when we did our episode, books to be excited about, we both were excited about it. this one for the cover looked good even though I'm just going to let readers know it's a heavy one it's a heavy it's a chunk it's no mantel but it's not it's you know nearer to a mantel than it isn't an i know you call it a chunk i'd say this is a size 10 in books and book world yeah i would i did

i think this is very very average size book yeah you're you are right i think it's just i'm not used to hardbacks as well when you get hardback in the old backpack but i was worried yeah because did you like such a fun age is so fantastic so brilliant and manages to do so many things Yes. And I imagine, if you're a very successful novelist with your very first novel like that, you might then go, now here's my sci-fi. Well, she says she wants to write in all genres. That's one of her things.

What I loved about, come and get it, is that if you did love such a fun age, it felt like a lot of similar themes being discussed in a very fresh environment. New takes, even more up to date in terms of what society has been talking about since then. Yeah, I would say the main theme. with this though is money so it's all about compared to what such fun age really is really dealing with race much more this is much more although race is in there this is about money and class and other things yes but there's a really is a large part discussing money and what it means and privilege how money affects the power intersections but such a fun age was still that because you have a nanny

it's true but it was it came from definitely from like a race point of view immediately whereas this is it's not like i was except expecting. I was like, oh, I wonder if she's going to hit on that topic straight away, whereas I feel like it was there, but it wasn't leading the phrase. I guess the volumes were up at different points. So we should say it's set in a college, American college system. It follows a professor called Agatha Paul, who's had a success with a grief book. Yes, obviously I want to ask you about satellite grief. And then she has written a book about money and she's going to interview these college students and she meets these three kind of very,

what seems quite vacuous, sort of, I don't know what the modern term would be, but they're kind of like... She's an author and as they're speaking, she's sort of enjoying their vernacular because it's a use of language she isn't familiar with. They're quite teenage, they like weddings. Being sort of 15 or 20 years,

older does make you a different generation. So it's about these three college students who she interviews and then they have this thing called the R-A. I don't know if you found this, the American college system is so confusing to me. So the R-A is like, I guess, like, in charge of their dormitory. But we did have those at Sussex. It's just they wouldn't, they weren't hands-on like this. And they weren't paid. Like, this is like a paid job. It was for their CVs. Do you know what? Fagery. So it was a resident assistant is what the R-A is, isn't it? On every floor, there was just one student who was matured. A mature student.

Oh, yeah, we did have a mature student. Yeah, and that was your RA. So, yeah, it starts with these three college girls and then two. One of them... They mention the really important detail is that when they're having this first chat, Agatha is there to research a book about weddings, she thinks. And they mention practice checks and being paid by their parents. One is paid by her dad.

Fun money. There's a couple of phrases that make Agatha realize money is the thing she wants to write about. Yes, so she wants to write about. Millie is their RA. She's had a difficult home situation. She's back in this dormitory again, which is seen as a bit of an odd thing to do as an RA. But it means she gets, she's paid to work for the university.

And she's black. And she's black. And that's important in terms of other characters. Well, actually, because those three girls in that very first chat, they refer to her as ghetto. They use an example and she overhears. Yes. So there's lots of overhearing.

And then there are one of the girls, and it's three college girls. And there are a lot of characters. One of the girls, Tyler, lives in what's called a suite. That means there's three girls. So one has a single, two of them have a double. And it begins with this confrontation over who gets to share the double,

who gets to share the single, or be on their own. And we meet Kennedy, who's this girl who turns up with way too much stuff, like lots of live, laugh, love kind of things. And so I think TK. Max has a different name in America. So they're calling it Target, which is very, it isn't

they have another name for TK.M. Kennedy's room, and this is right near the beginning as we're meeting her character, the stuff is really important. Her and her mom. And it's not just, oh, you know, she's got a lot of clothes. She's got like a hostess trolley. Yeah, and electronic posters.

Coffee machine. Yeah, yeah. So she has all this stuff and Tyler kind of arranges by talking to Millie behind Kennedy's back to get her in the single because she doesn't want to share a room with her. And her and Peyton, this other girl who is very odd in her own other way end up in the double, which means that Kennedy's completely isolated, completely alone. She doesn't have friends. She doesn't get invited to things because she's.

not in that they seem to have this kind of boarding school vibe about their colleges because they're sharing rooms and they're going and do things. Did you feel sorry for Kennedy? Yeah, I did feel sorry for Kennedy. I did feel sorry for Kennedy. But it's a difficult novel. I feel like there's so many cats. Like I just want the list of like, no, there's a lot going on. So we have Agatha's like ex-girlfriend, she's moved away. But you have Millie the R.A. No, I just think it, I found it a bit, I found it a bit too wide. Oh, did you? Yeah. I found it like. This is a lot of people and I'm not sure.

So, yeah. What I really loved about the population of characters, I didn't ever feel confused. I knew who everyone was. It jumps forward and backwards in time, as well as, you know, all of the characters get a little bit of explanation about where they've come from as well. But it felt like a big bustling university

with lots of people experiencing similar issues in upside down ways. I think my hesitation is I sometimes, with this book, and I loved such a fun age, I sometimes wondered what was, what was she wanting me to think, or what was happening? So when it's so broad, do you know what I mean? So you're like, okay, so these people and these people and these people,

and I'm following this, I'm following this, I'm getting, I'm not confused, I get it, but what, what's happening? Like, what do you want me? And I felt, compared to such a fun age, where it felt like so directed and precise. Does that make sense? I was like, I'm not sure what you want me to think. There's a couple of things that I'm going to,

add in to see if this helps you. I can't speak on behalf of the author. Now, the number one, I thought the cleverest thing that Kylie Read has done, there are no straight white men in this book. Yes, that's very true. Yeah, yeah. So she took men out of the power, sex money dynamic and went, they're still there. So she takes...

That's a great essay to write. Yeah. Every time we have debates or discussions about people who abuse their power, people who use their status or money to, you know, maybe... manipulate or seduce somebody younger with less, that whole discussion is going on exactly the same human behaviours, problematic human behaviours, all of that happens without a man. Yeah, that's true, I hadn't noticed that. Exactly, because it's not rammed down your throat.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's only if you're trying to think about it for a book podcast, but you go, hang on a minute. I definitely enjoyed it as a read. I had that slight because she's so good at tension and characters that you are like, oh my God, well, what will they do? When they did the thing, I thought, oh, still not sure. Do you know what I mean? I'm going to ask you a question.

Yes, that must be a question. Did you read the acknowledgements at the end? Oh, you normally do, yeah. Yeah, did you read them? Well, now I'm doubting myself. It was based on real students. Yes, yes, I did because I also read Guardian interview with her talking about it. So I didn't know that until I'd finished and it added a whole level.

To know that those phrases were used by real students and then she included them in a fiction, I thought was an incredibly clever thing to do. But it might be the reason why. you, if you did feel it to be slightly underpaced. Yeah. No, it wasn't underpaste. It's just like it didn't quite deliver what it was pacing. Like when you got there to where you've been running,

you were like, oh, just here. This is where we were running. Someone's like, come and see, come and see. And you open the door and you go, oh, okay. You spent 200 pages to get me here. That's interesting. Which I want someone to get murdered in the car park. Let me read an interview from her because I think this is

what you're talking about. about which is really good. So she said, I knew I wanted to write about young people and money, says Kylie Reid. She had finished editing her debut, the much stuff of such a fun age, and was completing her master's degree in fiction at the University of Iowa. She began interviewing undergraduates about their relationship to money, paying them $15 for 40 minutes of their time. She asked them about their interpretation of load-bearing words like classy and trashy. One student mentioned her dad's habit of paying her practice paychecks from his office payroll, though she did not work for him. It seemed Reed had stumbled upon

a creative way to practice corporate fraud. She also had the beginnings of a new novel. That's from the Guardian piece about her. And I agree, it is really interesting. I just, I don't know, and I really feel guilty. Is it that second novel thing? Like, I'm holding up such a fun age the whole time. I'm not letting come and get it be come and get it.

You know, you're not like, it's just not such fun age. It isn't that. Second child. It's different. It's difficult guys for my son. Well, because I thought it was better. Did you? Yeah.

I thought it's exactly what you want for novel. disagree with you, interestingly. Not saying you're wrong, just like I read lots of reviews. Am I being reviewed? No, it's great. Say it's wrong, one star. It's had lots of mixed reviews, which I found interesting. I don't care about reviewers.

No, I know you don't, but it was interesting to me. I don't think they're right than me. Yeah, you're very confident in your opinions. I am confident in my opinion. It's good. Do you know what? There are so little I am actually confident about. And it's because I've read so much.

Yes, you have. That's official. And a little bit like the jingle at the beginning of our show. And I think about it so deeply. Yeah. And why did you think it was better than such a fun age? In its less extreme. Mm-hmm.

Yep. And it's temperedness. Yes. You enjoyed that. No, it's not about enjoyment. I thought it was really holding a mirror up. Rather than having to plot it in a way to hold a mirror up, but also have some more exciting things happen.

Yeah. And I, the mainstream audience, demand. Where's the car going into a viable? I thought the lady in the bikini. I was left feeling truly uncomfortable and that's because these are really uncomfortable. Oh, I wasn't left feeling that uncomfortable. I didn't feel, I felt no.

I felt like, oh, something's going to happen. That's more what I had. I'm going to ask you a question. Yes, go for it. If Millie was asked in 10 years about her relationship. Oh, actually this storyline I did love. Yes, that was my favourite bit. She was my favourite character.

She was a very, very well-drawn character. We really like her. We see how hard she works, how little she really wants. how anything that's going to come to her in life she's going to have to earn. We can't help but respect people that live that way. It's completely different to the people who come from money. You and I don't come from money's backgrounds.

I beg your pardon? How do you? No one's going to... I was like, do you remember when I said to Humphrey Carr once? I accidentally called him upper middle class. And he was like, excuse me, I'm upper class. And I've never had anyone correct me on that before. I loved Millie, a Millie's story.

I felt a bit sorry for Millie. And also I felt like Kylie was doing these things sometimes where people did really small things that really fucking backfired on them. I was a bit like, is the moral of this story like, whatever you do something's going to... Do you know what I mean? There was tiny things that then people were like,

well, now your life is fruit. They're not just tiny things. They're tiny, tiny, but they're transgressions. And that's the point is transgressions. There's a reason that you feel a bit, oh, I shouldn't have done that. So as someone who makes my work from my life, that whole discussion and thing is very...

very, very sophisticated. Yes. And this is why I say, I do think it's a more sophisticated novel. Yeah, that's interesting. Which is an absolute smasher. This isn't me criticizing either book.

No, no. Agatha is overhearing the people that she once paid, honestly, saying I'm researching for something. And now she's secretly listening. Eavesdropping on them. That's quite a transgression. Yes. She then publishes.

In teen vogue, exactly what they're saying. Even if it wasn't a big magazine, even if it was just on a blog, slightly disguising them. But sometimes that's worse. You're then changing who someone is. So if they recognise half of themselves,

they go, why have you made me that? Yeah, yeah. Or, oh, you've made me dumber. Yeah. So the whole thing about using real people, and that's why I loved about when I read the acknowledgments and realized, oh, she actually did interview real people who knew she was going to write a book.

And then she's written this book. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? There's so much of that now. And because of online, people find out. and I mean But I thought that was interesting that she has a character in the book who eavesdrops on students

and then puts them into a book and she Kylie Reid interview students and put them into a book and she makes the character suffer morally for that choice but when I read an interview with her she was like oh they were all super keen and actually they were like

please can be in your book more but that's because she didn't transgress she was honest and so it seems like especially with the acknowledgement is the person who said practice paychecks was asked

I love this. Yeah. I'm going to use that if you don't mind. This has made me really excited for my work. However, it was phrased to them, and they felt like they were part of someone's creative process who was then going to create a fiction. Yeah.

Whereas if Kylie Reid had then started listening to people in secret. I found Agatha a really difficult character. Like, I didn't like Agatha. And I found... Because she was too tall. She was too tall. Tall women who do not see me.

It's very problematic. Yeah. Yeah, I've really felt for Millie and Kennedy, those who are definitely the most vulnerable characters. And I think... Agatha should know better. Oh, Agatha's fucking no better. And her constant refrain was, no one knows what I'm doing. I thought that was really interesting, those chapters where she'd go for a walk or she'd go and buy sushi and her constant feeling because she's moved to Arkansas,

away from her girlfriend. It's not pronounced Arkansas. It is not pronounced Arkansas. It's written Arkansas. Did you think it's Arkansas. I thought Arkansas and Arkansas were different places. Oh, Sam. In America, yeah.

No, same place. Saw one written down, heard the other one, didn't know it's the same place. And her constant refrain is, no one knows what I'm doing. No one I was doing. Do you not have that sometimes? But I thought it was good writing and really interesting that this woman had like lost her mind on the power of people not knowing what she was doing. And that's why she started, you know, abusing is not the right word, but manipulating Millie, manipulating the situation. And I wanted to shake her and be like, fuck sake, people do know where you are.

It could be argued. that there's abuses of power. Yes. Well, I didn't want to say the word abuse. Abuse is very, very strong word. Worry that that's what's in the book.

It's not that. It's abuse of power, definitely. The relationship with Robin, again, I think is so well-placed because I really like Robin. We really like this dancer with no money who then doesn't really respect it.

And there's an example. I don't know, especially as someone who's had a series of relationships with men who don't earn very much money, and which means that you do, if you want to do things, you pay for it. So the way that someone behaves when you've paid for things.

Yeah. I agree with you. It is a sophisticated way of writing, but it's a bit frustrated. I felt frustrated as a reader because I was like, I don't know what Agatha's really learned from this. I don't know what's changed. I don't know what I'm supposed to feel about Agatha.

I just felt kind of annoyed with her. If it had been a man, we wouldn't have expected him to change. No, but in a novel, you do expect characters to change. That's not about gender. That's like, you're telling me a story. I'm expecting change. I don't mean like,

she realizes she's bad. I mean, just like that arc of storytelling. And I felt a bit like, it's not doing storytelling arc, it's giving you a snapshot of a moment and letting you decide, which is lovely, but I also felt a bit like,

I thought you were about to tell me something. But I will say, I couldn't put it down. And I sat in Chance Re-lane Station for 25 minutes because I was like, I have to finish this. So it had a weird effect on me. What did the reviews say?

Well, it's just, very mixed. One quote that I thought was interesting from the Sydney Morning Herald was the novel is rife with gossip but seems unsure of its central goal. And when I read that, I was like, oh yeah, that is that bit how I feel. Like it was a bit unsure of what, quite what you wanted or what you were doing, whereas I feel with such a fun age, I was like, I know what you're trying to tell me. And it's not moral message or like everyone's, everyone works out. It's just like, oh, I feel like you know. Well, actually, we found it really difficult to describe at the beginning. Yes. And maybe that's the thing. Whereas you don't find that

with such a funer. Yeah, it's much clearer. It's this. Yeah. And then there was a funny bit. There's a line in it, which I thought was really funny, where she describes a character

looking like a backpack. Do you remember this? Yeah, yeah. And she's like, oh, is it Simmy? She's like, Simmy looks like a backpack. I can't tell you why she just does. And I thought, that's funny. Loads of the reviews picked up on that

of like an example of terrible writing. Like several articles were like, I mean, this, someone looks like a backpack. I mean, what? And I was like, oh, I thought that was just, I genuinely thought that was a, I know what you mean. She looked like a backpack.

Yeah, I mean, it's not a metaphor. I know. It was funny. Lots of it said that they thought the writing was not very good, which I did think was harsh. I didn't feel that. I felt like, I feel like the unsure of its central goal for me. I was like, oh yeah, that's definitely how I felt.

I think we're both right as ever. It's like it's aiming for something bigger than such a fun age and whether it quite achieves it is dependent on how you, you know, the reader. And that's how I felt slightly end. I'm not quite sure what's happening. I mean, I wouldn't be able to ever review books. Because some of the things I think that they're saying are negatives, I think, are strengths. Like you say with that sentence, I think that's an audacious description of a character.

It's not saying they have brown her. Brown as the trees in the field. It's an author making a joke. Yeah, I thought it was funny. And I thought some of it was very funny. I thought there were some really good characters and really good observations. This is why I couldn't be a review. I really enjoyed it.

As soon as I started reading it, I was like, oh, what a treat. And I wasn't necessarily expecting that, you know, hugely love the first novel, second one. You are, you always like, oh. And then as soon as I started and I was enjoying it so much. That's all that mattered to me. Yeah, yeah. It was a really, really enjoyable read. So let's talk about, so Agatha's published a book on grief.

Oh, yes. Satellite grief. That's her first book. Oh, yeah. To see if satellite grief was a thing. Okay. And it doesn't seem to it. No, no, I was going to say, is it?

Because I've never heard of it. I was like, oh shit. You're going to have to add a bit to your book about grief. Add knowledge. And Sathleth grief is this new movement in grief? Oh, no. Yeah, so Agatha Paul, in the story, she's written this book called Satellite Grief because an incident happened to her when she was a teenager where she caused an accidental death. And it was obviously very traumatic.

And she wrote this book about grief and what it means. Kennedy, this other character, has another incident that happens to her. Oh, yeah, I wondered how you feel about that. I mean, that's, again, this is where I think, audacious author, the incident to Kennedy is so horrific. But also I want to caveat that with listeners like it's horrific but small. It's not like chains or massacre horrific.

Because of the human emotions involved. Yes. When you call it a trauma, something might come to mind like, oh, that person was assaulted or that person was robbed. It's not those things. It feels very plucked from the real world

at the same time as being something you've never heard anything like that. Yes. And that's also what's happened to Agatha. She accidentally, I don't think this is a, Is this a spoiler? No. So she's in her car as a teenager.

There is a man at the side of the road. His dog runs out onto the, into the street, holding the lead, pulls the man into her path of her car. She breaks, but the man has a heart attack. So she's involved in the situation, but she doesn't run over somebody. And so that's what a lot of this book is dealing with, small incidents of life that if you say them out loud and not like, and then a man came with a chainsaw and hacked everyone's legs.

It's not that, but it is those small tragedies that derail people. lives and affect them. So Agatha writes this book, Satellite Grief, which Kennedy finds and becomes hugely important to her. And that's why she's chosen this university. That's where she's chosen this university and she wants to go on her course. And I found all of that. Very heartbreaking. But yeah, what did you want to ask

me about Agatha Poole's grief? Did you feel that it was making a joke about grief? Did you feel that it was an interesting angle on it or not important at all? I can't tell with Kylie Reid sometimes when she's joking as well. Do you know what I mean? There's an edge with her of like, I couldn't tell if it was almost a satire of like something kind of not big happened to Agatha and she wrote

a whole fucking book about grief as if she was an expert on these things and it had become this strange bestseller. Do you think of Agatha Full's satellite grief? It felt like rather than taking something that's more quotidian like you know losing a parent. Yeah yeah. Losing someone you really love. Because you're expecting tragedy. Yeah. And that's a tragedy, a very familiar tragedy. She'd pick something a bit more, I want to say interesting, but I don't mean interesting. I mean, yeah, yeah. There's a book called Bright Young Women, which I don't think you should read. And it's a fictionalised version of two women affected by Ted Bundy.

Oh, yeah, no, I won't read that. You have told me about it. But it's a book about complicated grief. Right, yeah. I don't really understand or know much about it. A new thing, yeah. But the therapy group that one of the people, so who was at university when Ted Bundy broke in. Oh yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so, you know, the students, and he murdered one of her friends. And she was effectively the RA who ran around to the rooms. Right, right. Hospital organised at these four girls. And then had to go and speak in court against Ted Bundy. Wow. That's a very, very complicated grief. Yeah, yeah.

And that's official complicated grief. Yes. The book has obviously done so much research in it. Because complicated grief we should say is a new term. It's about 10 years old and it's very big in America and it's not always recognized in other countries. Yes. But it's a very big thing where your grief continues to exist at the rawness of day one and it will not change. Because for some people, really, really sadly, the time or the manner in which the person, they lose, you know, their person dies, means that it isn't as simple as like, I miss them, I love them.

Yeah, although it can happen. It's happened to people who just have a parent die after an illness. Well, exactly. They feel like they're still, like, as if it's just happened. Yeah. Or they're still very angry with the person. So an emotion might mean, you know, if you can't let go of that. But it's very recognised America and there's lots of centres,

university research projects going on. So it's a bit of a... Because we're British. We're British. But it's a very new, controversial word in the field of grief. Yeah, yeah. I did a radio four documentary about it. No, no.

It's absolutely cool. Yeah, it's like, yeah, Sarah. Like a documentary? Yeah. Called what we know about grief. And it is like a new idea. I was interested. I thought, oh, it sounds like grief.

Maybe that's another. I see. Yeah, no. But it's not. Using real people in work. Right. When you were doing sketch comedy. Yes.

When we were doing sketch comments. But did you ever base a character on a real person and then think, oh God, I hope Alan doesn't come and see. Do you know what? I'm very lucky in that everything I did was so odd that it wasn't based. So I was trying to remember. That parkour French guy wasn't based on. Jack Lecoq was a, yeah, Moomin Mama, Jacques Lecoq, the French parkour expert,

Andrew the seven-year-old stand-up. He wasn't real, no. No, he was sort of based on what I imagine my husband to have been like at seven. Okay. Because I wore his Doctor Who tank top. But, like, I didn't know him at seven, so it was sort of a joke.

And then, well, Joey Bechamel was a spoof, Zoe Dashnell. But I never, no, my comedy never came from real people. Definitely not. But when I'm doing writing now, yes, it does. Yeah. And that is a very uncomfortable place. Because I think character comedy it was so big and weird.

Yeah. You could bring people in, but it was all so distorted like no one would have recognised themselves. But obviously you, stand up. I got caught out a few times at the beginning, once with you as well. I remember that...

I very much overreacted to you once talking about what I was doing in Starbucks. But I was being very dismissive of something that meant something to you. And it's horrible to have someone talking about you on stage. Should we talk about it? Yeah. I can only vaguely remember what happens. This is my version of events.

You can tell me if I'm on. So it was a very... small room at the Pleasance. I was a new stand-up and I started talking about how my best friend who I was living with was reading the book The Secret. Oh, that's not what I remember. Oh, great. Okay. So we have different versions. Reading The Secret and then afterwards, and I was being very dismissive and calling it stupid. And then afterwards you were saying it's so difficult because people in the audience were looking at me. Like they knew they were talking about me. But you know what? Do you know what? I'd forgotten that because actually what you did is, I was temping. And

that day, I'm sure this is what my memory is, that day I'd gone for an audition to be in a crocheting video because I could crochet. Oh no, I did. I made fun of you asking the universe. And I had, yeah, I'd have to go and show them I could crochet and they were going to like film me crocheting for like a video. And that's how desperate I was. I was like, 100 pounds for a crochet video. Wow. And you made some reference to that. It wasn't secret. You made some reference to the crochet thing. But you'd already said my best friend. So people already knew they were like, look at me. And then you said like this sort of like pathetic crochet video. And you know when your life is so pathetic?

And then someone on stage you're like, oh. And what I remember actually saying to you was like, it's very funny. I can't handle it. Like I am too vulnerable for you to make jokes about my life. That's the thing about the responsibility of doing it is you don't realize you are going to hurt people. I don't remember the secret. That's really funny. I did watch the secret.

That's why I referenced the audition. Yeah. Because the example I was using is like asking the universe for something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It wasn't because I thought the audition was pathetic. I thought asking the universe was pathetic. Yes, it was just, you were definitely calling me pathetic. Or ridiculous.

You were definitely calling me at the pleasance. And I sat there and thought, it was just when, it's that thing when someone makes a funny joke, but it's your life. And you're like, oh, I have to wake up tomorrow and live it. And you feel like, oh, don't point out that my shoes are stupid. I have to wear them. And so that's the thing. So stand up. It's all fine when no one hears what you're saying about them on stage.

And then as I got slightly more successful and things were ever on the radio or TV. That's what it became a massive problem with my family. Yes. And then, but then it was, all of these topics are off. Yeah. You're not allowed to this. You're not allowed to say that. You know, Cheryl's the teacher with interviewed her on the, for our teaching ads. She's like, you could lose me

my job. If you talk about something I did as a child. There's more serious than carrots crocheting. Gordition is on the line. There's real, but there are their ramifications. And do you remember that story, cat person? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then that then became a huge success, which you don't necessarily know. you're writing a short story.

And then that was based on a true person. Yeah, and then they found out, obviously, recognized themselves. And took his own life. Oh, is that what happened? Yeah. Oh, I did not know that. Which then spawned a whole load of journalism, which is about what is the writer's responsibility to real people.

Because legally, and you know when you wrote your book, you do a little bit of disguise in. Yeah. A little bit, you know, you can't search for them and find out who it is. They can't be taken to court. But if they know it's them, what's the emotional responsibility? I think she's done a very, good job in this book of writing about them in kind of a rounded way. So those, I think that's what

I do think is very skillful. Which is why I think the reviews saying she's not good writer, really, that's not true. That's really, really not true. For me, I think she's masterful. What she has as a character saying, this is clearly me. If you'd have asked me, I would have said yes, because I'd have said yes to anything you wanted. Oh, that bit was really, that ending. Yeah. Yeah. And that, for me, that felt like that was the end of the arc. Yes. Yeah, I know what mean, I do mean, I think I just... It was someone going, why can't you be more decent? Yeah.

Millie, a really decent character saying, why didn't you just ask people? And with the transgression, it's like, yeah, why didn't you? Yeah, that's true. That is... Did you think we're going to get better information? It was a little bit like she's a bit of shamed of what she's doing or... You know, when people just are slightly...

It's not a massive tragic Greek tragedy flaw. It's just like, just a little bit not good enough, a little bit lazy. And then the problems that happen. And then how much you'd hate yourself? Yeah. I did this to myself. I think I'd say, I think she's a brilliant writer. And I thought people were being very harsh because of the success of such fun age.

With Kylie Reid, it reminds me a little bit of Zadie Smith or Monica Ali, these women who become literary sensations, but it's also because of who they are. Yes, partly that is attached to it, definitely. Beautiful. Very talented. You know, obviously incredibly bright university educated, but with a bit of an outsider perspective, they have this huge like fiery ascendancy we're also glad they exist we're also desperate for them to tell us about we're also desperate to read what they want to write and then at the other side they then think they they get this huge wall of establishment going like why would they be so critical yeah no I was I was surprised and I mean I always read reviews because I find it and not shit reviews I find genuine criticism in that Claire Dederer way helpful sometimes because I finished it and I was like, what do, I'm really confused. And then when I came across that quote, I thought, oh, yes,

that is what my brain is feeling. And so I thought, like, good criticism can sometimes clarify how you feel when you're like, yeah, yeah, that's, that was sitting weird for me. I wasn't quite sure what she wanted me to think. Yeah. So that's, that's really true. So I don't, I've mentioned Marianne Levy on the podcast before. So she wrote, Don't Forget to Scream, which is an amazing motherhood essay's book. She reviewed Catherine Ryan's new show, you know, her family. Oh, the parent one. Yes. And it was so brilliant because it was. a mum who gets it watching Catherine Ryan making a show about being a mum and picking out the incredible quotes that just gets thrown away by Catherine or that you might just watch go,

you know, it's a Dave documentary. Yeah. It's a comedian making jokes. You're absolutely right. A critic can highlight for you. A good critic, yeah, yeah, yeah. Who gets it. Yeah. It's sort of unfolding and explaining to someone who either hasn't watched it yet or might

do. Watch out for this. Don't have this moment pass you by. And I think it's really interesting. God, I was about to say dichotomy, I'm so sorry. Please. Go on. That's the thing with reviews and like the push and pull that we have with them.

And I know you don't read them and you don't want them. And then I'm always like, oh, I read this. I read this interview because I always want more background information. I think that maybe is a lack of confidence for myself of like, well, did other people agree with me? They did. I'm right about this. But we live in this world where there's too much sort of reviewing and not enough genuine criticism because you don't have to pay journalism anymore and you don't have the paid journalism anymore.

You don't have the critics who are, you know, respected in the way that we used to. But that world also existed with, like, one white man deciding what theatre is good or bad. So it's not like it was amazing. But I think it's interesting sitting in this world that we exist of books and then reading some of the stuff I was reading, which was so cross with Kylie Reid. Well, this isn't, this isn't the book you wrote last time. And I was reading some of them thinking, well, no, it's really different. And that's what I'm trying to get my head around. what didn't I like compared to the other one.

But that's, I have to say, shout out to Sydney Morning Herald. I thought like, that's the only one where I was like, oh, you're actually meeting her at her level and dissecting it in a way where you have, you're not just going, I liked your last one more. I thought she was so canny. I thought in terms of there being so many similar things that are clearly still on her mind and she still wants to explore in a different way, it meant that you could have a huge success and then another huge success.

I'd say, I can't. As her publishers, I'd be like, thanks Kylie. I can't wait for the third, like her next book. I do feel like she's a great writer. I will be always interested to what she said. But if someone said to me, I haven't read anything, I would say read such a fun age. I wouldn't say we'd come and get it.

I'd be like, oh no, I think that's a really brilliant. If you have no time and you're, where do I start? I'd be like, that's the one I would read, whereas you would come and get it. I'd be like, yeah, if you like her, absolutely give it a go. But if you're time poor, some people are. That's what I would say. The reason I don't read reviews is.

is twofold. One, they make me sad because I've been badly reviewed. Whereas I said, I've never. No, I do know what you mean. And so I always think of the person who created something. I did feel horrible reading it for her. I was like, oh my God. So I get this sadness, horrible feeling.

I never ever feel like glad that someone else is being told this is why they're not good enough. Even when the person is much more successful than me and much more brilliant than me, it still feels like a horrible thing that a human being, But that's bad reviewing. If somebody says lots of the reviews, oh, this is bad. But someone's like, oh, I found this bit interesting. I didn't like this. It's criticism versus reviewing.

I actually think that sometimes is more cruel. Do you remember once we were talking about how a therapist has said, you know, your inner voice, how they speak to you. Oh, yeah, yeah. And you're describing how an inner voice would be like, oh, you're not good enough. You're a piece of shit, da, da, da. And I was like, oh, mine's really insiduous.

Like, oh, that's a shame. Did you try? So it sounds like it's my friend. Oh, my God, if only you weren't so fine. And mine's really vile. Of course, you fucking idiot. What do you expect to happen? So at least you know it's an enemy.

Yeah, you can definitely hear of it. And that's the problem with the reviewers. The ones were like, I'm really intelligent. And let me find the holes. I was just listening to If Books Could Kill, just another book podcast. Yes. They were playing the clips of the Naomi Wolf interview where she finds out her entire book was badly researched. Oh, God.

Yes, we should caveat this. So this is Naomi Wolf. She goes on the radio. She's being interviewed about it. On Radio 4. Matthew Sweet. in one interview destroys her entire book's process research. Her argument was about homosexuality being punished criminally in the UK

and she had misunderstood a phrase from the courts. Essentially she thought it meant they were put to death and it's the exact opposite. It was that they could have put them to death but they decided not to. Oh God, it's so painful. That's how I feel about reading. Yeah. And in this interview, if you are inclined, he basically accidentally summals that she's missed something and she realizes live on air that, oh, her book doesn't make sense.

Yeah. But reviews in general, while that's a very, very extreme example of someone, I just don't like the feeling. And then the other side of it is, once I've read the opinion about myself or someone else, I can't get it out of my brain. No, I'm the same. I'm the same.

And that's why I'd rather just not have them there. Because once they're there, it's almost like it then just sort of leaks and it taints. And you start to think, yeah, maybe it wasn't gold. Oh, we've talked about this before, like every terrible review, I still have the sentence burned. Yeah. There was one in Edinburgh. It was my birthday because my birthday's in August.

And it ended with like, despite it being her birthday and the whole crowd singing to her like, I did not have a good time or something. It was like, even though they were all enjoying it, I just don't think this is a terrible show. And everyone had sung me happy birthday at the end. And I was like, wow, to find out there was a party pooper at your party. And then he writes about it. So this is exactly it, right? You look out to an audience.

They all seem to be smiling and receptive. you meet that energy to find out that one person was sitting there dissenting, wishing you no goodwill. No goodwill, not even like, oh, it's not for me. And that's what's hard I find about a book, right? So you put it out into the world with the best of intentions. And the fact that someone could be holding it in their hand with an eyebrow raised, typing. Well, what is the point of this? Seems unsure of it's central girl.

What a stupid joke like a rucksack. It makes me feel so protective. Put the book down, leave you alone. Yeah. I didn't make you. have it? I know. And also, you're right, it's the pressure because that book did so well. Like, it was such a barnstormer. They are all out with their sharpened pens. I always feel so protective of people. Maybe it's more women, actually. Maybe it's protected of women. You have a success.

You're Sally Rooney, you're Phoebe Waller Bridge. And then, you know, journalists want to go, well, the reason it's not as good as you think it is. And the reason you're wrong to be enjoying this thing. It's actually, yeah. Yeah, I know, I just, I think, and you do have a search for genuine criticism and it's very satisfying. That's why I enjoyed that Claire Dedera book so much because I thought she really delved into what criticism can do. But also I think she chooses

things she's interested in, passionate about and recognises as art. Although that Claire Dadawa quote from Monsters, if you haven't listened to that episode, where she says her, the reason she's a critic, her primary school teacher once said to her, Claire, you won't stop, do you find out what's wrong with something? And I was like, that is a critic. Like, that

is what we are looking for. Oh, I thought you were saying, you're a bit like that? Yeah, no, I think I am a little bit, and I don't love it about myself, but I think I'm a bit. There's nothing wrong with it. But I think also, I'm like, Canada. But also, I'm really into, like, research. And so I won't just read reviews. I'll then read interviews because I feel like, I need more, Kylie.

What were you thinking when you write this? I want to know more. Yeah, like, the book is. Definitely fascinating. Yeah, I'm like, yeah. And I actually found the interviews with her very helpful. And I was like, oh, I can, it made me understand what she was doing. And I thought, oh, yeah, okay.

Well, Sarah Pascal. But you're glad you read it. I am glad you read it. Yeah, definitely. But yeah, I would say if you haven't read any of her stuff, can't ask you a question. You can. We're reading now at a ferocious rate.

Ferocious. Because of the podcast. Because of the podcast. Ferocious. Do you think... It's ruining books. Not ruining books, but they're having... I feel like each book is having a harder and harder act to follow

because of the books they're following. Yeah, this had an hard act to follow. I can't remember what I'd read. Oh. Upcoming episode, Butter. and I found the transition from butter to this very difficult. And I am trying to be aware of that as I'm reading. And I get, if I get a bit like, I don't like this, I'm going to like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

You're not giving this the space and time that it needs. You have to meet them like people. Yes. And be like, what does this book need for me? This person talks slowly. This person talks in French. Yeah. Yeah. This person is a translation from Japanese. Yeah.

This person's jumping around a lot. This person's talking over me constantly. It's me and carry out. You chose to download it. Life imitating art, right? Yeah. Do you remember a few weeks ago you got a text message from Catherine Ryan? Oh, God, yes.

So Catherine Ryan was on Michael McIntyre's big show. Carad and lots of other people didn't know that. So Michael McIntyre, what he does on this show is he takes their phone and he sends a text to everyone. And then they read out the replies, ha, ha, ha, ha. And the text that Catherine had was, oh, you know, I'm about to go on the Graham Nilton show. I'm telling a story. A funny story about your name when we first met you was something. No, no.

A funny story about the first time you met and how weird you are. Oh, yes. I'm going to have to name you because it works better, but do you want some money, basically? And that's what the text, WhatsApp I got on Friday night at like 8.30. And it made people paranoid and upset. And people were texted going, what did I do when we first met? And the money thing was very insulting. And that's what I thought was so clever about what Kylie Reid does in this book.

That's a good comparison. Yes, isn't it? Yes. So you see why I had to make a podcast longer by saying it. No, that was really good. And I messaged you immediately and was like, I just got this really weird message from Catherine. And you were like, oh, don't worry. She's on Michael Maconauty show.

So it's really normal. I got one about Joe Lyset. Do you want to dive over to the Joe Lyset one? I got Catherine's one as well. They've read my reply out. And I was like, why do I feel famous? Because Michael McIntyre read out my text. I'm on TV myself sometimes.

That's hilarious. Isn't it? So Joe Lice's one on the Michael McIntyrecher. It was a party, wasn't it? It was an invitation, a picture saying there's a big launch tonight. We can't tell you what it's for. And then just basically an address in Soho, 10 o'clock. And obviously, you know, new mum hasn't been out in a long time.

And I thought, this would be lovely. It's 10 o'clock where kids will be in Benstein. can I go? And he was like, this is, I said it's last minute. Joe's having a big announcement. This is going to be so exciting. All my friends will be there. I find stuff like this so painful. That's like getting ready. Oh, I find stuff like that's so painful. Like I actually makes my heart hurt. But yes, that is a very good argument. You've made me like the book more. That is my job. That is your job. She will always defend books over people. Thank you for listening to the Weirdo's Book Club.

My novel Weirdo is now available in paperback. Carriads Tiny Rists will be pleased. And Carriads Book, You Are Not Alone, is also available in all. all good bookshops. You can find out about all the upcoming books we're going to be discussing on our Instagram. Please head there and follow us at Sarah and Carriad's Weirdo's Book Club, all one word, and let us know what you think. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you.