Sara & Cariad's Weirdos Book Club - Death of a Bookseller by Alice Slater with Eliza Clark

Episode Date: September 28, 2023

This week's book guest is Death of a Bookseller by Alice Slater.Sara and Cariad are joined by incredible author Eliza Clark to discuss true crime, bra fittings, male masturbation and tote bags. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you!Trigger warning: This episode contains discussion of death, murder and Columbiners. Death of a Bookseller by Alice Slater is available to buy here or on Apple Books here.Penance by Eliza Clark is available to buy here or on Apple Books here.Sara’s debut novel Weirdo is published by Faber & Faber and is available to buy here.Cariad’s book You Are Not Alone is published by Bloomsbury and is available to buy here.Follow Sara & Cariad’s Weirdos Book Club on Instagram @saraandcariadsweirdosbookclub and Twitter @weirdosbookclub Recorded by Aniya Das and edited by Naomi Parnell for Plosive.Artwork by Welcome Studio.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I'm Sarah Pasco. Hello, I'm Carriad Lloyd. And we're weird about books. We love to read. We read too much. We talk too much. About the too much that we've read. Which is why we've created the Weirdo's Book Club.

Join us. A space for the lonely outsider to feel accepted and appreciated. A place for the person who'd love to be in a real book club, but he doesn't like wine or nibbles. Or being around other people. Is that you? Join us. Check out our Instagram at Sarah and Carriad's Weirdos Book Club for the upcoming books we're going to be discussing. You can read along and share your opinions.

Or just skulk around in your raincoat like the weirdo you are. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you. This week's guest is Death of a Bookseller by Alice Slater. What's it about? It's a book about selling books and reading true crime books written by a writer who wants sold books, but now she's writing about a bookseller writing poems

which are in fact bits of books. And what qualifies it for the Weirdo Book Club? It's a page turner about a weird woman and her obsession with a slightly less weird woman that she works with. In this episode, we will be discussing true crime. Retail. Class. Brow fittings. Grief.

Columbiners. Male masturbation. Female cruelty. And tote bags. And joining us this week, we have the incredible author, Eliza Clark. Eliza's debut novel, Boy Parts, is critically acclaimed, award nominated, and had people shouting things like incendiary and morbidly brilliant at her in the street. I read her new novel Penance over the weekend and I'll be shouting,

you're a genius at her as soon as we're finished recording. Describing herself, Eliza says, I'm from Newcastle and working class to publishers, I'm diverse. But she says it in a Georgie accent. Welcome Eliza Clark and death of a bookseller. So she feels at home. Yeah, yeah. There's definitely those of weirdos in this book.

I think anyone who drinks fruit cider is weird. Just going to put it out there. I think it's sort of one of the things that I find really gross about Roach is just the amount of fruit cider. Yeah. It's like, You imagine how your teeth would feel? Sometimes in a book someone drinks a drink you wouldn't have.

Like, I've read a book where the character kept having Baileys and Coke, and I know that's impossible, but it was still aspirational to me. Even though I know you can't put Baileys in Coke, Coke and Baileys. That's disgusting. The sweetness of it, the creamless, if the writer maybe wants it. A curdle, wouldn't it? It does curdle, yes. But the way the fruit cider was described always made me think,

oh God, those nights being a student, those drinks. What's the name for it? It used to be something that people used to ask for something. something like snake bite. Snake bite, yeah, yeah, yeah. Until it became illegal. Yeah, we went like to serve it. It was a cocktail because they were like this three ingredients.

You can't do it in wether spoons. Oh, God, so disgusting. Yeah. So we should say it is about two, mainly about two women. It's told from each chapter differences being Roach and Laura. Roach is our official weirdo. I think that's fair to say. Laura is perhaps on first meeting.

You wouldn't think she's a weirdo, but it becomes clear that there are, you said, Slightly less weird. They're both as weird. She has outsider tendencies. Yeah, she's hiding them better, I suppose. Yeah. She's more hiding in plain sight,

whereas Roach is absolutely definitely, as soon as you meet her, a definite outsider. So something I read when I was, was that they're both unlikable characters. So what I was going to ask you to is, did you like them? And is it important to like characters?

Mm-hmm. If you're spending a whole book with them. Like starting with Roach, really. Yeah, I mean, I think I like Roach. I think I like Roach a bit more than, Laura, because Roach is quite earnest and up front. I think it's like, who would you rather deal with

on a day-to-day basis? It's obviously Laura. But in terms of whom I'm spending time with, I think I'm a Roach fan. The writer definitely wants us to sympathise with her. With Roach. Yes. Yeah, I think she works backwards, like, when you meet them, you're like, oh, Roach is awful, Laura's fine.

And then you start that crossover point where you're like, oh, actually, maybe Laura's a pain in the fucking ass and Roach actually has some qualities. Although I did think Roach is, this is jumping head, Roach has keeps a snail and there is a moment a snail incident that happens with Laura, which Roach uses to justify quite a lot of stuff. I was like, I still think we've all accidentally stood on a snail. Obviously it means a lot more to Roach. But yeah, you do, I like, I thought that was very clever and good to the way that when you meet Laura, you're like, she seems perfectly reasonable. Why is Roach so horrible and then halfway through the bit you're like actually well laura's mean do you think she's

mean i don't think she's kind that's interesting to roach no she isn't kind to roach agreed and roach it's one of those classic she can't help it so you sort of forgive them yeah yeah personality traits it's very well justified it is but that's what i thought it's interesting in roach's head she justifies it quite a lot of like oh if only laura was nice to me we could be friends you kevin's moments but there was that moment to i was like roach that's mental like Her imagination of like, oh, we're going to like be girls getting ready together is like something that Laura has never given ever. I think they're both as bad as each other, to be honest, in their fantasies.

So Laura has this fantasy about this guy, Eli, and she is completely deluded about Eli in the way that Roach is completely deluded about her. So they're both not very good at picking up the signs of other people. When Roach watches Laura perform her poetry, Roach is so taken with her. And so, and it really is genuine. She can't believe that people are letting her walk out of the room to go for a cigarette because she thinks she's going to be mobbed by literary agents and fans.

She's so overwhelmed with positivity towards her work and that response is so genuine that then Laura's rejection of that. I'm not saying it's as bad as treading on a snail or that if you, you know, all of us perform, all of us create work. I was going to say, like, as a performer, when somebody is too effusive about your work, there is something off about it. They actually can't be too abusive, actually, yeah. and people are addicted to my coverage.

Help groups. But you know what I mean? I think that's what's strange about Roach's reaction because it seems nice. I think I might be team Laura. I think when you put work out there and especially when you're still at a venue, you're technically still at work.

Like you've done a book reading, someone comes up to you and you know it's about them, not you. I still think there's a duty of care or a duty of professionalism which is making them feel okay about their reaction to your work. even if you don't particularly like it.

Yeah, I agree with you. Have you ever had weird people after reading Eliza? I feel like I'm so on best behavior because the idea of upsetting somebody who is enthusiastic about my book is so profoundly mortifying to me that the idea of like somebody being very sort of excited about something and then being kind of rude about it afterwards. But then at the same time, I can't physically set a boundary.

I'm really, really bad at setting boundaries. So I was thinking maybe Laura's just saying. a boundary and that's valid. I don't think. A boundary person, I would think, would go, okay, you've had your time with me. Here's your time with me. So nice to meet you. I'm going to go back to my friend now. Yes, that's true. She's just kind of mean. She makes her feel stupid. You keep seeing both of them do things. You're like, just don't do that.

I know, that if you were roach's friend. Yeah. You'd be like, you back off a bit. And also you just be slightly polite. Yeah. So go, yeah, go and buy her book, ask her to sign it. You know, there are. But someone at that early stage in their. career. They should just be grateful that someone says well done after their show. Well, this is true because, Eliza, you were a very successful and brilliant writer. So you're talking about something of like a book has come out and caused this complete change in the narrative and culture and people come up to you.

This is a small local poetry reading. Yeah. So you think Laura would be a bit more like, oh my God, somebody liked it. She does act like she's Margaret Atwood. She's like, I don't have time. I have to go. Margaret Atwood is always smoking in the pub garden with the boy she fancies. If you want to Fian and Atwood, she's out.

having a roly at the back of the two brothers. Have you ever, Liza, have you ever had people want to hug you? No. No one has asked to touch me yet. Because that's the boundary that I find really difficult because they think of a hug as a gift for you. Like, here is my gift. Here is my, I feel so connected, I feel like we can hug,

but you've just met them. And also, you don't like hugging for a stop. I think a hug is a take. I think a hug is a little bit of take of energy. That's how you treat a hug, definitely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so part of my boundary thing is to start to say no. Oh, yeah.

But it's a really then awkward thing because they then feel terrible because they were giving you a gift and you've gone, I don't want you disgusting gift. Yeah, your reaction to hugs is quite visceral. Yeah. I don't, I don't hug you, I've known you for 20 years. I don't have a visceral reaction to strangers. But you're not a fan of them, even from people you know, is what I mean.

So then when strangers ask, it's even more. Yeah, it's a quantum. It's a quandary. I feel like that about photos. Catherine Ryan, because I used to really feel bad. When I used to want to say no as well, I had no makeup on and I was like, you know, on the tube, early morning, etc. And I'd want to say no, as in like, it's not going to be a nice photo. And Catherine Ryan said to me, it's really important. Other women, see women who wear makeup at work looking normal. So you have to take ugly photos. So now I just do them. She always looks good, is the irony of that comment. She has incredible porcelain skin and looks. Good in all of her photographs. Absolutely, porcelain. I want to talk about, if we can, the true crime element of this. Yes.

This is quite interesting for myself and Sarah. I do not like true crime. I hate it with a passion. I don't read it. I don't listen to it. Sarah feels, it's team road. This is why I'm so fascinated because I'm reading penance at the moment, Eliza. And I can't pick you.

You've obviously done a huge amount of research into true crime podcasts and. fandom and the internet and Reddit threads. But I couldn't, with Alice, Slater, the writer of this book, while there was a debate about the merits of true crime and how exploitative is and how without empathy it can be as an entertainment format and whether we're comfortable with that, I still felt that, you know, at the beginning where she's going to see the murder girls, which is going to see murder girls,

which feels to me so clearly my favourite murder. Even I thought it was my favourite murder. And I was like, she's a true crime fan who also, you know, we can be true crime fans and also have our doubts occasionally. But Eliza, I couldn't pick it with you. I guess I'm sort of a little bit of both in that I feel like I'm a bit of a convert in that I've converted to not liking it as much. And that I used to, yeah, I used to listen to a lot of true crime podcasts and sort of, yeah, just kind of indulgent it quite a lot. I will say in my defence, I did always think of it as a prurient and rubbernecking interest. I was never kind of like, it's feminist.

actually. Yeah. And yeah, it was kind of as I was writing parents. I sort of went off it. I did a lot of like reading of like true crime books, like big books written by sort of, I mean, I guess there's always going to be a degree of exploitation, but I guess journalists who I feel were making a genuine effort not to be exploitative and to give you kind of like a like a like a sociopolitical history, I think of a crime is always really interesting and really important to hear. So it's kind of like reading sort of high quality stuff like that and then kind of thinking about it a lot while I was writing Penance and then going back to a podcast

I just remember listening to like half an hour when I'm just turning it off and thinking this is vile I don't think I can do this anymore it is very strange the comedy genre overlap so in penance there is um Coots is called one of the guys and it's really like one of the American podcasts which is called last podcast on the left

Oh, okay. And essentially, they do funny voices and they improv and they talk over each other. About true crime? Yeah. And I'm not saying I don't like listening to men. Yeah. I feel like I can listen to men. Yeah, you can, yeah.

But when I listen to last podcast on the left, I feel like those people who write underneath unbearable, the pitch of their voices. It's so grating because they are trying to make each other laugh. So that comedy, the flippancy of comedy, which is so psychopathic. in itself. It is so devoid of empathy. Well, yeah, I do a podcast called Griefcast. That's obviously why I'm Team Laura, because it's like I can relate to having lost a parent at young age and talking about grief.

And people in what I found interesting, people in the grief community. And there is a grief community industry as much as there's true crime. Do not like, there's not a crossover that we do not mean. Because it's like, I read, as soon as I started reading Laura, I was like, I didn't see her always as me. And I was like, this person has so much grief and they haven't dealt with it. So she's angry and she's blocked off and she's defensive and it's like all of a sudden is grief, undelt with grief.

Which I actually think Alice did a really good job of writing someone who is grieving in a way that doesn't look like grief, that everyone else is like, oh, she's a stuck up bitch. And it's like there's just so much pain in that person. And everything she's doing is pretend, it's fake. It's like I'm just trying to put myself back together because I don't know who I am. We've had this conversation about true crime, like, anything that seems like to listen to it by choice when you don't need to. to feel that. It's like, why would you do that when, like, grief is out there, pain is out there? Why would you then go and, like, open the door? But we've had this conversation when you're like, but it feels like safer to listen to it. Well, I'm like, it feels terrifying to listen to it.

People's defensiveness of it is usually people who may be, and I obviously can't speak for everyone, who could consider themselves traumatized or anxious, but not having experienced great grief. Yeah, like, Roach. That's why it calms me. Yeah. Because really, uh, or they've found that really weird when she was talking about the calm. I put on this, I listened to the Westwood 3 or whatever it was, and I felt my jaw and clenched, and I was like, I cannot imagine listening something that's horrific

and it relaxing you. Whereas my grief community, it's like, you listen to the person talking about their grief and that's what relaxes you because you're like, oh, you went through this thing, but it's a very you're not talking about, I don't know, it's not like you're not investigating the trauma in that way.

You're investigating the trauma from someone kind of after the event talking, they're in control. in a much clearer way. The other very ethical thing with is the advertising. Do you get is something that you talk about in penance in terms of like selling mattresses? Oh my God. There are some people who want to tell stories around true crime, but don't think it's appropriate to make your living off it.

Yeah, yeah. Well, it's like I come up in grief podcasts. Like I do adverts for the show so that it exists. And then sometimes what happens is my, you know, know, they'll run automatic advert. So I get people going, my listeners will email me and go, do you realize there's a Father's Day advert for a supermarket? And you're like, no!

Or like a baby one. And you've had an episode about child loss. And you're like, oh, God, like it was advertising like a nappy deal or something. But it's just, this episode has got fat pills. It's just calling everyone a fat bitch saying, take these pills. Take these pills. Yeah, it's Chloe Kardashian. Oh, God.

And it is hard because that's, and I think Alice dealt with that very well. I felt like it was a very balanced view of true crime in that you did get Laura's mine and Laura's slightly pious opinion and then I did appreciate hearing the other side of Roach talking about what it meant to her and how it felt to be part of that community but yeah I still found myself a bit shocked that she entered when she was like I entered it through being a Columbiner of like people who used to like follow the Columbine shooters

and were like really into them I was like what where is this one? One of the characters in Penance is very similarly, and I actually hadn't realised this was a thing, but of course it is, a young woman who identifies with a school shooter and, you know, they all have nicknames for them and want to communicate with them and read their diaries and so overly romanticise them as heroes

and identify with them because they live in a shithole. You know, that horrible teenage feeling they project onto them and go, they like me, they didn't fit in. No one appreciated them and they lived in a shithole. For me, it sort of feels like a bit of a misfire of empathy. Yeah. And that they're kind of, they're empathizing with the wrong people. But it's sort of like almost the kind of like, I don't know,

this very extreme act of empathizing with someone of empathizing with somebody who's done something so, so awful. And I think, I don't know, I just feel like teenagers have got a lot of weird, very strong, misfiring emotions constantly. And it's like, it's just gone to completely the wrong person. There's a really fantastic book called Savage Appetites by a writer, of Rachel Monroe. She sort of details four different cases of true crime fans. So it's like the first one is like an older lady in the 50s in America who makes these like very intricate little

mackettes. But then I think it's the last chapter is about Columbineers. And it's just a very interesting exploration of, I don't know, I guess women who are really, really into murder in different ways from these little sort of intricate mackets to, she has this great anecdote where she's talking about this young woman who gets obsessed with like a bank robber in her local town. He's, I can't remember if he's a bank robber or he kid or if he does both. And she writes this like half of a novel that's very romantic and very, very sort of invested in this kind of dark hero. And then the fantastic punchline at the end was like, and that woman was ein rammed. And it's And it's, I mean, like I said, it's a great punchline,

but it's also just everything you need to know about I'm Rand and a nutshell, isn't it? The OG serial killer fan girl. There's a really interesting evolutionary theory, and obviously that's not hard science, but because it doesn't make sense to most people, but the evolutionary theory is that if there is a dangerous man around, your safest place is to befriend him or to be near him. The idea that the reason human human,

beings are all so different is that we sort of fit together in a tribe, you know, in terms of survival senses. There's just this way that we feel is an aberration, but actually it's another way of being safe, which is like, no, I'm his girlfriend. Yeah. I won't, I won't be one of his victims. What I thought she did really well for me, coming from grief camp, is she caught the idea that there was a piece of this puzzle that Roach didn't fucking get and a piece that Laura did get. And even though Laura is a bitch and is annoying and could have been kinder. She does have this like her mum was murdered. And that Roach, the way Roach dances around, all of this stuff is so fantastical and isn't based in any reality. And I feel like

Laura lives in a really horrible reality. And it's like Roach is living in podcast, internet world. Oh, absolutely. If you said to someone, oh my God, I'm so into that serial killer. And they said that person killed a relative of mine, you instantly would feel so, oh, God. Whereas Roach's reaction is, Oh, which one? And I thought that was... Why has she been so secretive? That was such a nice thing in the book that Laura would be mean in her head about Roach

and be like, oh, I can see her like waiting for crumbs like a dog. And then you'd hear Roach being like, oh God, I was so excited. And you're like, oh, Laura's not wrong about Roach. So that's what I thought was interesting. Her meanness and her distaste of Roach comes from a truth of like, you find me interesting for the wrong reasons. But the way Laura dealt with that wasn't always helpful. But there was an absolute truth that Roach was

interested in her like a car crash and that Laura's had that all her life and as a grieving person who's had like extremely traumatic grief she's been dealing with that since the teenager so you can see she's run out of patience so when she does come across Roach she's like fuck you I have no time for these people who I can feel as like leaching on me

Roach considers it to be open territory as she considers her interest in a murderer who is local to her to be partly owned I know that what do we feel about that of like who does own that story Because I thought that was really interesting of like, Roach does have a point. It's a public story. She grew up around it.

People's lives are sometimes hugely affected by a local crime. I mean, there was a girl who went missing where I grew up from a playground that we played in. And what happens is a generation of children know that name, I told that story. It's repeated up until your teens. So the huge emotional effect isn't, the lovely phrase you used, Eliza was like, empathy misfiring. Yeah, yeah. You don't think you have the same ownership as the family of that person,

but it was oddly a story that was told to you again and again throughout your life and feels like part of the fabric of your story as well. Yeah, it's complicated. I think that's what I liked this book I thought did very well, of not drawing a line in the sand, of being like, oh, that's right, that's wrong. And because she keeps flicking between Nora and Roach, you're constantly, and I, look, totally, there was times, as a former goth, I was on Roach's side. There was definitely times and I was like, yeah, fair play.

I got a bit annoyed with Laura for not realizing Roach was in her house. Do you think you'd just know if someone was in your house? I got a bit like, oh, I guess it's just, it's good writing, isn't it? I was frustrated. I like desperately wanted the moment where she discovered her. Like, and the way it was always so hazy, everything's hazy, which I thought was interesting because it comes back to like Laura's mother's murder, everything being a bit hazy and it's actually quite hard to pin things down.

But like the boring narrative person in me was like, I want you to know and to tell her. The bit when she's, yeah, there's a bit with, spoiler, there's all a spoiler, when she finds that she's in the bathroom and you're like, it's not even, like, it's just because she's singing that she hasn't heard. And Roach is like, oh, whoa, that was a close one. You're like, why did you go back there? There were some lovely details.

I appreciated Roach sniffily going through her wardrobe and discovering it's all H&M, ASOS, and atmosphere. Well, she thought it was more vintage and it's like, no, she just dresses it's from the high street. But Roach is so out of fashion, she has no idea. also found it stressful when she was bleaching her hair without sort of consulting the box that was very stressful like that's not something you should do by yourself

by drinking fruit cider but as a character trait that's absolutely dead on yeah yeah yeah it was perfect it was perfect so working in a bookshop yeah we got some have you got a fact

well I got some I got some facts just that she is a former bookseller Alice Sater she worked in Waterstones so the book the book company in the podcast is called Spines which is clearly waterstones. She started a Christmas temp.

Then Sarah Pascoe, I've got a fact. It's going to blow your mind. Oh my gosh. Sarah, where did you work? I worked in Dublin Smiths and Rompford. Alice Sater was a manager of Romford Waterstones. I didn't even know there was a Waterstone to Martha. It definitely wasn't back then.

But it does say that at the back of the book. Oh, no, I thought you excited. It was still exciting because I was just thinking about the people of Rompford and have they become more literary. Was it just Derek Smith? when you were there. Yes, and also the Dublin Smith was mainly magazines. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. We didn't have a large book section, but at the time, just in our defence, we weren't reading books because Bourne Slippy came out and it had going back to Rompford as the last line, so we were

just dancing to that. Oh, great. We were too busy to read. Too busy to read. Yeah, I was also a former bookseller of Smyr-Smith, not the Rompford branch. We should add, Alice Sater then moved up to the Gower Street branch, then Notting Hillgate. Gallaud Street's a great branch. Yeah, and not she moved up well. She's a good book, clearly a very good book. That was the last one? Notting Hill Gate. Notting Hill Gate and then she became a very, very successful author. So that's the ladder. That's the ladder you got to take booksellers.

Eliza, did you ever work in a bookshop? No, I didn't. My best customer service job was I worked at Agen Provocator for about for not quite a year. Oh, that is. Did you have to measure brass? I did. I did a lot of broth and I used to say, see like six to seven pairs of boobs a week. And then I sort of moved back to Newcastle and became a bartender. It's no boobs at all. It was a huge loss. So the world of a bookshop, the sort of the retail elements of it are very, very well observed in the boom.

The retail elements are so good. She really does get the Christmas customers. Christmas customers. And the list of questions she has are what people, what can ask you. You can almost feel Alice Slater's own personal anger bristling through. There are some really funny jokes about very recent successful books as well. In terms of, oh, my God, you haven't read this.

Oh, this is what you're going to love. And I thought Roach was really good. at judging Laura's pathetic book pride on things and the way that she would sell them to certain people and the way they look and oh, the tote bags, the tote bag trolling, there's some excellent tote bag trolling of saying like, oh, it's in tightwriter font and it says bookworm

or though she be but little she is fierce, which is a quote I once had on a badge. To be fair, in my 20s, which was a long time ago. But yeah, I was like, oh gosh, she really like slams those kind of people who see books as a personality. which I think is... This podcast. This podcast.

Yeah, yeah. I was like, oh. And our new tote bags. Carriage you've not seen them yet. It's your little face on a tiny puppy. It's like, so she's a little she is fierce. In typewriter font that no one uses anymore. Yeah.

Oh, that's the tumbler generation that I come from, which I'd happily see back. Yeah, I thought the retail stuff was really impressive, really good. And I thought that's what made Roach quite likable for me, is that Roach kept skewering Laura's perfection. Of that, and I guess that's the type of personality, perhaps we're familiar, of books being, I'm a good person because I know books. Like, therefore, I'm smart and I'm kind and I'm funny and I'm interesting. And also, but when you work in retail, you get paid very little, you get paid minimum wage, maybe slightly higher, but you are expected to be devoted and they have a star system in this bookshop.

Yeah. And Roach doesn't want to join in on that. And I think there is a division in retail of those who just, you know, this is where I work. I do what I'm told from the head office. and people who see through it. Yeah, yeah. Do you remember, was it otikas you had next door? There was another bookshop.

Oh, there was a better bookshop. Your manager described it. Do you remember? No, he said a lot of mad things to my manager. Okay, so this is my memory. Okay. You're coming home one day. Not furious, but maybe just contempt.

It was hard. It was hard work. Because the manager had been describing the lead up to Christmas as being like the sum. No, yes, I was going to say this. This wasn't, this is what happened was. So there was another bookstore of Waterstones-esque cool book store, Debbie Smith. Let me tell you, as my manager wants told me,

he sells most books in the UK, so I don't know why people are so sniffy about it. And he took us all off the shop floor into a corridor, like outside of the shop. So like left books, no one was there. It was Christmas. And like this is like four unigrades, all English student, you know, being like, we don't really know what we're doing. We're just, all of us

are waiting for our lives to begin. And he was like, this is Christmas. You, I cannot believe the way you're selling. This is the trenches. This is the song. This is World War I. You've got your backpacks on, machete and hand. We're going over the top.

And we just stared at him like, this isn't happening. And it was like after the office had been out. You know, like this, how the office has ruined speeches like this. You should now be ashamed of yourself for making that speech. And I said, are you serious? He was like, yes, I am. Now go back out there, soldiers and sell, sell, sell. A lot of the narrative of this book is two women, not being.

very kind to each other. The characters in penance are younger, so they're still at school, and it goes all the way back to primary school. And it does, like, having read both of them in quick succession, I'm like, oh God, women are awful to each other. Girls are so cruel. Everyone's a bully.

Everyone is bullied and a bully at the same time. And so you can't really pick who is the worst. And do you hate women? Yes. Thank you. You've been listening to Weirders, but calm. See you later. You know, I often think boys get off the hook with how cruel they are to each other.

There was, I'm going to tell a gross anecdote, but there was a boy at my school who didn't know what wanking was. And then the boys, the other boys told him that it was when you put your fingers up your bomb. And then he told them that he did it and that he got some substances on his fingers. And they just called him brown finger for the rest of the time. to sing it to the tune of Goldfinger. Oh, that's so bad. And it's like, but girls would never do that. Maybe they would actually.

I think it's very different cruelty. And maybe we, maybe as women, but we know what female cruelty really feels like. So when you're reading it, perhaps it feels, whereas boy, if you told that story to another boy

who'd been bullied, they might be like weeping now in PTSD, whereas we're like, oh, they called him brown finger, good song reference. So I think there's a big joke. Yeah.

There's a particular, because it's like it's familiar it's that familiar pain that you know that got like the cruelty that women have and I think it comes back to like

how-escapableness especially in penance because they're online and I guess for these characters for Laura and Roach you're stuck working with someone it's that thing of hating going in being fearful

of are they in the room what mood are they in oh they're on their lunch break too I guess what feels familiar is the unescapable nature of it and I think it's also what she deals with really nicely is the hidden nature of female cruelty because we don't

tend to get into like brawling that's not how problems are solved it's all done underhand so that roach and laura are both horrible to each other and everyone in the starved room is like oh come on like just have a fag calm down like it's like this the insiduous nature that it's played out in that both times there's times when you feel for roach and laura because it's something so unfair has happened and like when, you know, the example, I guess when Roach steals her poem. And it's just like absolutely blazing, it wasn't me. And everybody kind of,

they both feel like they haven't been treated fairly, even though all everyone's tried to do is stay out of it. Everyone's just trying to basically, like, not have anything to do with it. But yeah, that female bitchiness, I suppose, is the classic word for it. It's very, like, claustrophobic, I think, is that feeling. But also, you hope that we grow out of it.

Do you think we do? I have. I think like by the time you're in, yeah, I think most people do, particularly by the time they're at least in their 30s. Yeah. Hopefully. But I think sometimes work really brings out the like high school in people because it can be so like, because you're kind of forced to be there like school. Yeah. And there is that kind of like, I don't know, especially when there's like a sort of in-group out-group element to it.

I think that can get very like, yeah, like you said very claustrophobic that feeling of coming in and being like, is this person here today? Oh, thank God they're off. That kind of thing. You're right. You're absolutely right about workplace and it happens a lot actually in productions and plays. Everyone bonds over a dislike of one person and that can be very subtle, but they are ostracised

and they do know it. So they're social elements, you know, last to be invited, people not including them in rounds. They're really subtle ways, but you know if you're that person. What do they say? You need those things to say, we went to you together of like, if you don't know who everyone's moaning about is you.

Like if you're not in that conversation, like, oh, I can't believe they did that. it's because it's you. And it's like, I remember someone at uni saying that to me, and it was them. I was like, oh, do I have to start? Yeah, God, isn't she annoying? Like, I had to give you something so you feel like you're, but actually we are all moaning about you at the moment.

I think it comes from school life, and that's why school life, I think my parents are obsessed with schools, because if you have a good school and your experience of school can be like, yes, there was bullying, but I was looked after or I learned to survive it. Then when you get to a workplace, you can recreate that. And if you feel like people are being mean to you, you can be like, well, that's their problem, not mine, I'm okay. But if you were in school, like Roach clearly was, it never got dealt with, her mum didn't support her, she's alone.

You continue it, and you're looking for those patterns again. You're just recreating it. And her thing with Laura, like, she does obsess over her as soon as she meets her. And she is creepy about her dead mother who was murdered. Like, there's sorts of things on paper where you're like, yeah, you can see why people don't instantly want to hang out with you. And the only way she survives it is to basically remodel herself entirely on Laura. of steals Laura's life, which I really like that because it felt weirdly like Sweet Valley High

to me. It was like a real teenagey, like, I'm going to steal, she gets her hair, she gets her clothes, like she literally takes away everything. But I sort of, yeah, I was hoping for a big, not Sweet Valley High, maybe like Hollyoaks, like moment where like she like threw a drink over her, but you don't quite get that moment, which I think is probably better writing than Holly's. With that school choices thing, so Carad and I are at an age where people, We're just at an age. That's the phrase. We're an age.

We're at an age now. Where the school's thing is a really huge decision. And people want their children to avoid the life they have. So if you're unhappy at a comprehensive, you think by spending money, they'll be fine. Or selecting a better school. I don't think there is any school. Because in penance, there's a mixture of sort of upper middle class wealthy children,

but at a comprehensive. And then, you know, there's a couple of housing estates of differing sizes and the level of care at the school, which actually isn't really poor. But is it something that you've thought about a lot in terms of your own schooling or background? Yeah, I went to a school quite similar to the one that I sort of talk about in Pennant. So there's, I'm from the west end of Newcastle where there's, there's like a huge comprehensive called a war bottle, which is like, I think it's like nearly like 2000 students

or something. It's like massive. And then also, when I started school, Newcastle was in. three tier and it changed to two tier around the time that I would have been going to two tier. My mom also went to war bottle and was having like a nervous breakdown about the idea of sending me specifically to a war bottle when I was 11 because I would have died there because I was a very strange child. So I there was a comprehensive in Ponteeland, which is like a village in sort of the bottom end of Northumberland where it's like right on the border between Northumberland

and Tyne and Weir. So I got sent to a middle school and a high school in Northumberland. And And yeah, it was kind of very like that where there was a mix of like kids that had been busted from the West End by parents that were sort of a bit like, you're not going to war battle. And then like kids that were from the area of Pontiland. But then there were like estates around the Pontieland area as well. But there was also Daris Hall, which is like where the footballers live. And it was where all of the new money kids lived. So it was a real mix of, well, just like a really broad mix of sort of socioeconomic backgrounds that. that the kids were coming from.

Yeah, and that's something that, I mean, adults struggle with it. So, of course, teenagers struggle with. And it's such an easy way to victimize someone, isn't it? Like, not having the right clothes, the right shoes. The way that very young people feel they have to display money for safety at school. Well, no, it's just so much, like, what both of these characters are doing is using these things to pretend they are someone. Like, it's costume, it's drag.

It's just like, I'm putting it on, and that's, like, Laura's tattoos and her vintageness and her matching berets and shoes is all saying, I'm fine, I'm not a person who's mum was murdered, I'm a normal person. And it's so funny that Roach always calls her a normie, and you're like, yeah, I think she was desperate to be normal, because she's actually, she's actually so weird compared to Roach. Her background is actually extreme, really extreme.

And Roach is putting on, you know, like, Roach is just trying anything. I think Roach doesn't have a clue, because she moved so quickly from heavy metal rocker to, like, Vinci's trying to be Laura. Yeah. And I think that's what we all, are you do at school and that's what I guess these characters are slightly stunted aren't they

because they've both been they you know roach for her own reasons or for own reasons haven't got that moment where you're like oh this is who I am and that's fine and that's when I think you could stop bullying or being bullied because you're like yeah that's who I can't really change it can I like that's just it well and that's who I am and that person doesn't like it yeah it's fine it is fine yeah and you learn that with stand-up comedy actually because at the beginning you really want everyone to laugh at you God, this is such a failed comic and then what you realise

over many years if anyone laughs that's a win I did a it was at Soho Theatre they were getting creatives together to talk and I was talking to a chef and it was actually so similar to comedy

which is that you make the best dinner you can and then someone will taste it and go I don't like it and it's not because you cooked a bad dinner because that's not what they want to eat bad taste buds like fundamental not bad no some people do come on

Let's be honest. Some people do. Some people just don't want you what you're cooking. Yeah, that's true. There's some people just don't want you cooking. And that's it. So if you're an accomplished chef in this analogy, but it's your personality, you go, I can't, I'm doing my best. I'm doing my best. I do my best. Is that what Rachel wanted to say at the end? I'm doing my best. That is the ending. That is the ending. Ever fancied someone you work with? I don't think so. It's time to shout out. You might get stuck. I love fancying someone at work.

Because it's just a reason to go in. Yeah, a reason to get slightly gips up. Yeah, I was going to say not seriously. Only in a way to entertain myself when I've been. It's sort of in a kind of like, could I fancy this? Yeah, you can't make yourself fancy them, don't you? Because they're there. And then you see them outside of work and you're like, nah.

Yeah. Idiot, actually. Carriad? I can't discuss it. No comment. She married him. Yeah. Christmas parties, works drinks?

Oh yeah, the work, Christmas party they describe. That obviously is a Waterstone's genuine Christmas party where they all go and get absolutely wasted. I want to go to that then. I say, I thought it sounded really good. Maybe they'll invite us. I would love a part-time job in Waterstones. You'd be good in it as well.

Because you would just get to hear from so many people about what they were reading and what you could read. And that's just a never-ending brilliant conversation. But I think you could just sand in Waterstones. Because don't you remember the cashing up bit and all that and the stock? That's not as fun as the talking to people. I'm there optionally. Oh, you're like a volunteer.

Yeah, I'm volunteering. Those are the worst people at work when you're like, you're slogging your guts off and you're like, no, I just turn out because I like it. You know, like there's a kind of policeman that isn't really a policeman. Community support police officers. I would like to add that I don't think that community support water stuff. I would like to add that I don't think that community supports the police officers. I don't think you're not real policeman.

I think they get a bit offended. Well, you guess what it was? So who's getting the hate mail? Definitely, they're still not me. It's a really great book. Yeah, it's brilliant. It's brilliant. And I am someone who does not like reading tense things, stressful things,

because that's my life is being quite stressful. And I enjoyed it. And I had to read it while my kids were watching Andy and the Band on CBBs, and I still managed to stay very tense and involved, which is pretty good because Andy and the band is a very good show. Yeah, I get annoyed when books are really gripping. I'm annoyed with penance at the moment. I'm sorry, Eliza, because my son doesn't sleep very well,

so I get very little sleep. And I was up to midnight, last night reading Penance. And with this book, I read it over a couple of days. And I'm like, don't make yourself unput-downable. Yeah, it was really stressful. I need to start reading the blurbs at the back of books and going, I'm put downable. Not for me then.

I need foot downable. Half a page in your sleep. And all-consuming thriller. No thanks. Yeah, they were like, T's ready. And I was like, I'm just coming. I'm just coming. I had to like read the two epilogues, like pretending I was doing that.

Very, very good setting up for the next stage of the story. I wondered that. I was like, is there another one? Or is there? Do you think? Yes. I almost wondered if it needed it. Well, I guess you can leave it elusively.

But either way, lovely cliffhanger. Yeah. You know. Oh, yeah. Very good. We shouldn't spoil that. It was just like. We haven't actually.

No, I know. It was tasting. I'm really proud of us. Yeah, we haven't done any spoilers. I was done. Thank you. We sometimes end with a quote. Do we have anything on?

I looked for quotes and they were all either spoilers or too dark. Should I just choose a random quote to say goodbye? Okay. Eliza, give us a page number. Yeah, and we'll just... It's my head going, don't see 69, don't see 69. No, 69. This is a non-sequiturter.

And it's 10 lines down, please. Okay. Oh. Would my weapon of choice be my phone to call for help? our biggest kitchen knife in an act of vigilante justice or my silence. That's a good taste of this book, isn't it? That's like, oh, that's why I was like, oh, intriguing. Thank you so much, Eliza, for joining us to talk about Death of a Bookseller by Alice Slater.

Thank you for listening to The Weirdo's Book Club. You can find out more about Eliza Clark's work if you head to eliza clerk author.com or she's on Twitter at Fancy Eliza and her incredible new novel. Penance is also out to buy now. Death of a bookseller by Alice Stater is also available in bookshops. Would you believe it? Sarah's first novel, Weirdo, is also available to buy now. Go and get it.

It's out, and it's very brilliant and exciting. As is my book, you're not alone. And if you want to do your homework early, the next week's book guest will be Under the Net by Iris Murdoch. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you.