Sara & Cariad's Weirdos Book Club - Evenings and Weekends by Oisín McKenna with Oisín McKenna

Episode Date: August 28, 2025

This week's book guest is Evenings and Weekends by Oisín McKenna.Sara and Cariad are joined by our Weirdos listener recommended Oisín McKenna.In this episode they discuss whales, London being the best, feral summer evenings and day jobs.Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you!Evenings and Weekends by Oisín McKenna is available to buy here.Tickets for Sara's tour show I Am A Strange Gloop are available to buy from sarapascoe.co.ukCariad’s children's book Where Did She Go? is available to buy now.Follow Sara & Cariad’s Weirdos Book Club on Instagram @saraandcariadsweirdosbookclub and Twitter @weirdosbookclub Recorded by Ben Williams and edited by Naomi Parnell for Plosive.Artwork by Welcome Studio.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Sarah Pasco. And I'm Carriead Lloyd. And we're weird about books. We love to read. We read too much. We talk too much. About the too much that we've read. Which is why we created the weirdos book club. A space for the lonely outsider to feel accepted and appreciated. Each week we're joined by amazing comedian guests and writer guests to discuss some wonderfully and crucially weird books, writing, reading and just generally being a weirdo. You don't even need to have read the books to join in. It will be a really interesting, wide-ranging conversation and maybe you'll want to read the book afterwards. We will share all the upcoming. books we're going to be discussing on our Instagram, Sarah and Carriads, Weirdo's Book Club. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you. This week's book guest is evenings and weekends by O'Sheen McKenna. What's it about? A hot weekend in London and the complex and intersecting lives of a group of young people from Essex. What qualifies it for the Weirdo's Book Club? Well, it was suggested to us by you, our amazing and brilliant weirdoes listeners. In this episode, we discuss Wales. London being the best. feral summer evenings and day jobs.

Joining us this week is Ashene himself. A Sheen is a debut novelist. It was a huge critical success and commercial success, and it's available to buy it and paperback now. Hello and welcome Asheen McKenna and author of the amazing evenings and weekends. We recently asked our listeners for like top summer reads, what would you recommend? And yours was one of the highest recommended.

Like so many people said, evenings and weekends, evening weekends. And I also did between the covers with Jack. Jack Edwards, who'd chosen it in his book of the year. He's one of the quotes, one of the cover quotes. And so we were then like, both me and Sarah, because again, it was on the pile. We didn't sigh. No, but it was just that thing of like when the universe is making it, the universe is like, read it. But from the very first page, I was like, thank you universe.

Yes, exactly, exactly. Because it's at time of recording, pretty boiling. I think that there's something so nostalgic about hot summers as well because there are these moments in childhood where you don't actually. appreciate that you're happy, but it's a, you know, special. But as an adult, that's what you look back on and you remember paddling pools or parks or, you know, that long, long summer holiday that seems to like never end. It's such a brilliant book. Huge response for a debut novel.

And it covers such an array of characters. Was that always your intention to kind of like, I don't want this to be about one person. I want this to be like this. It felt like I was kind of, you know, the camera was moving between all these different people constantly. Yeah, definitely that was part of the early intention of it. And sort of when I started, I mean, I didn't actually really have that many ideas at the beginning of the process. I mainly knew that I wanted to write a book, but pretty much all of that felt a bit to play for.

And the way that I sort of worked was almost in this like mood board kind of way where I just kind of gathered things that I had to hand, which I thought were interesting. like stories from my life and stories from the lives of people that I knew and like political ideas and like stylistic like devices whatever but it felt like telling the story in this like polyphonic kind of ensemble way it felt like something that I always wanted to do and part of that was was sort of just like a like a like a sensibility like I felt like a lot of the books and films that I really like loved are these kind of like yeah or like ensemble ensemble casts that like follow the intersecting lives of lots of different people at once. I just find that quite, I find that a really pleasurable and like exciting way to like read a story.

Like I'm not even quite sure what it is, but that is sort of that really kind of does something for me. Like the idea of like all of these things simultaneously happening. It feels like that tells a really like full and rich story about like life. It also enables you to see the same character from several different points of view So for instance the character of Ed You know when we're with Ed Learning just about him we're going with him through London He's very much our hero and then there are aspects of Ed I found so troubling

Fuck off Ed And you don't get that if we just stay with Ed or if we just stay with Phil we know, so it does flesh out people. Or you're very good at sort of laying down a sort of throwback throw forward of like, hmm, like this incident. And you're like, what incident? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

I'm a big fan of Hot London. Do we all agree? Yeah. No. Well, I really like the way you've captured Hot London. But if someone said you can have any London, I wouldn't choose 32 degree London. Really interesting. I think I probably would, although it's got, it can have quite a like explosive emotional energy.

Yeah, it's too much. It can be too much. Yeah, that's what I love about it. Yeah. I love the feral wildness in people. It's like you sort of heat them and something vibrates to a different level. And that feels like, oh, everyone's properly alive and plugged in. And that's what you captured so brilliantly with the central characters, but also the background of it.

I absolutely loved it and I wondered, because you didn't grow up in London. You've sort of seen it as an outsider, but you've still admired it. Yeah. I mean, at the time that I started writing the book, which was in 2019 when the book is set, I'd only been living in London actually for less than two years at that point. And I think because it was quite new to me, it felt very, like it felt very vivid. And I guess that period of time, particularly during my first two summers in London, They felt, I mean, they were incredibly hot, though, some summers.

And also they felt really sort of, like, urgent and sort of sexy, but also, like, difficult. And I think I was interested in capturing the city during those times in, like, a lot of, like, detail. And with a lot of love and affection as well, because it's sort of, yeah, the city gave a lot to me during that time. And still, you know. And, yeah, I wanted to sort of, yeah, capture it very kind of, like, tender. and like precisely. Those words urgent and sexy are perfect because right from the very beginning of your novel

but this is what I very much feel to be true. I grew up in Essex, so very much, you know, that train from Liverpool Street Station. So this idea that there is fun to be had and it is finite and you have to get it now because the sun doesn't last for very long. It does make people a little bit crazy. Can I read a bit to you?

because this was a bit that made me go, oh, this is exactly what London is like in the hot. Everyone is smoking, especially the non-smokers. It's too hot to think about aging or illness or death, and it's too hot too. To wear a shirt or drink a glass of water or have dinner or go to bed or show up to work on time or show up to work at all. Everyone is downing their drink, getting another, downing their drink, getting another. Everyone is looking for something to happen. And I was like, oh, that is hot London. That's what I find a bit scary when it hits that point where it's like, people are mad.

people are like roaming the streets like yeah what is going to happen you're like go home yeah there's something about people drinking outside pubs and obviously Friday is the big one but when you see it on a Monday and a Tuesday it's the holding the pints it's the holding the fag it's the we can't sit down inside

and it's so bright that you don't realize it's half 10pm everyone's still behaving like it's half six I think it is a really romantic time Also, I think there's something about growing up in a country that isn't in any way wired or has the infrastructure for heat. So, like you said, none of the buildings have air conditioning. Nothing is cool. When you go to, like, you know, if you're traveling, you go somewhere that's constantly hot and, like, they're just, they're prepared. And like, so when we have these constant heat waves, which, let's be fair for the past, like eight years, it's been fairly constant.

The buildings just like collapse around us. Like you said, they chuck people on the street because there's no way you can be inside, even though this happens every year. And I think London is just such a like, you know, that big city, that tube system that gets everyone around that is not fucking designed for 32 degrees. How can you not be feral in that heat? I wonder as well if it's the right amount of discomfort because cold discomfort is, you know, painful. It does make you sad. But there's something, and I love that scene on the central line where you've got the woman Googling, why is it so hot on the central line? The central line is, I won't use it in this heat.

Yeah. No. Well, it goes much hot. than the laws for transporting cattle. Wow. Yeah, they measured it. They measured it once. It's because it's so deep, who's the answer?

Yeah, yeah. It should be cooler underground. Yeah. But I guess the thing about like the infrastructure of the city not being sort of suitable for the heat, but that being combined with, like you say, this kind of like pressure to have absolute like maximum fun at all times because it's so rare and because it's rare it's like special.

And like, I don't know, I often find myself like having this sort of feeling in the summer when it's like a heat wave, like, it's like, wow, there's not that many of these in like a whole life or something, like, in terms of like days that hot. And it kind of gives it this real kind of like edge, like, like, okay, I need to like really like make the absolute most of this. But because like, yeah, the infrastructure of the city is not really set up for it, you feel like, yeah, really uncomfortable. There's all these kind of like barriers to having this really fun time. And also the really fun time is like, it's sort of elusive and it doesn't really like quite exist. like it's kind of, it's kind of a fantasy or you get like bits of it, but it's like actually

quite hard to make it reality. And I think like I often find on those really hot days, like that gap between like fantasy and reality and feeling really excited, but also feeling a bit sad because I'm like not having this like fun time that I really believe that like every other person is having kind of kind of, I don't know, yeah, it's quite, it's very charged, I guess. And that was kind of why I wanted to set the book. in that time. Your characters, quite often, several of them, it seems to them that everyone else, you know, everyone waiting at the train station is going out, out kind of thing, and it's

just them going home or to do something boring or to do something responsible, or they've got stuff going on in their family life. And maybe that's a bit like, you know, New Year's Eve, those times that are pressured to have fun. That is how it feels. Like everyone else has sort of figured it out a bit better. Yeah. You just remember when we think there's that really weird London thing that Londoners would be like, what did you do? What did you do on Sunday? Yeah. It's a hot day. What did you do? And so it's like, man, we just found this boat. We just took, you, like, what?

Oh, we just went to the park. We didn't know there was a boat. Like, there is absolutely this comparison of like, how did you spend the really hot day? What did you do? Like, yeah, I've never realized, I guess it is slightly competitive. And also there is that thing of, like, you said, people are living. This is an amazing city. You've chosen to live in this extraordinarily expensive city that, and lots of other ways, like, destroys people.

But also, we're never part of it. Like, there's, whether you work here or you live here, people rush through. They don't look up, they don't sit down until it's sunny. And then there's this brief bit of like, oh, it's like you just land. I think that's why I mean about the correct amount of discomfort is that it's uncomfortable enough to make you actually feel present. This is a sensation I'm feeling. This is something that is universal. We're all feeling it.

And I think that's what's really exciting. It's like, oh, I'm inside a moment. And then that's the pressure then. It's like, what are we going to make of this moment then? And what's unfortunate about being a human being is you then think that the rest of your life is lack. because it's not that moment. Yeah, yeah. The city is such a character as well,

because that is how it feels to be in London. You have this ensemble of people that you know in detail, some people you don't know as much. And I love that they have this connection to Basildon, that some of them have grown up there and known each other since kids and then all move to the city, which is such a common story that everyone grows up on the outskirts

and then comes in. And it's really near Basildon, but it's also really far culturally. Why Basildon? Not being from Basard and yourself. Yeah, I guess that there were a few reasons. So I guess I wanted to set the novel in, in, I mean, in London, firstly, and for it to kind of be about, I mean, about London. And to some extent about like the UK or about England or something,

I was interested in telling a story which was related, related to that context. And I wanted the characters to be from there. but I was also interested in about what it's like to move from like a smaller place to a bigger place. I'm from like, I mean, it's a sort of like, I mean, it's quite a large town by Irish standards, but it's, yeah, in many other ways it's like a small place. And I was interested in telling a story about what it's like to grow up in a place like that, which is in proximity to the capital city. So where I'm from is about an hour from Dublin.

So a pretty similar distance at Baselden is from London. and I always felt so, I mean, geographically, it's like really, really close, but like, so socially, it feels like so. Time, time period. Yeah. It's not. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It feels so far away. And that kind of, I guess there's a real yearning in that of like being a young person who grows up in a small place and isn't quite getting what you need there.

And you can kind of see what you kind of want the need to be almost within reach, but it's still so far away. So I guess I wanted a town which was that kind of proximity to London that would, yeah, which would be suitable for that kind of story. And I guess the other thing about Baselton, which I was interested in it, in that it's like a new town. So it was built in the 60s mostly. And I was interested in there was so much optimism in the ways that it was built, like architecturally sort of the kind of the vision for it. like which kind of crumbled over the course of like successive generations in terms of government

uh government neglect over the course of a long time and it was kind of interested in how that mirrored some of the feeling of the book in terms of optimism and possibility uh being like thwarted and undermined by broader political and economic conditions one of the things that i think you explore really brilliantly and is so um absurdly true is this so i got from run for which isn't far from Basildom. And we are really close to London. I mean, it's 20 minutes on the fast train to Liverpool Street. Most people, their first jobs are in the city.

Obviously, it's not perfect. And there are lots of issues, but it is a, you know, it's a melting pot. And in that way, everyone, you know, lots of individuals flourish here. And it's a place I hope that, you know, it's very accepting. But 20 minutes away, you have the exact opposite, which is, you know, lots of homophobia, you know, racism, very outdated beliefs within the, so what you have is a generation of children growing up going, we're not going to be like our parents,

but they have to actually move out of that town. It's very difficult to stay in Rompford or Basildon or these kind of, and I only know Essex, I guess. It's very difficult to stay there and really feel that you can be yourself, even though you're only 20 minutes from a city where you then can be yourself. I was interested in that thing about for particularly young people who leave those places in order to kind of get any sort of life that can kind of like nourish them and in which yeah they can be themselves and feel feel okay but there's such kind of sadness in that I think and like the kind of yeah kind of not quite rifts but like distances that that like

can create between the people that leave and the people that stay and I was interested in yeah thinking about the sort of the kind of yeah I don't know there's a kind of grief in it I guess which I was interesting I think you captured that so well with it's Phil in his mom the bit that really upset me when it was like you know his mom loves him so much and has accepted him and and phil is gay and it's not a spoiler guys and and then you know she she wants to come and see him in London but she feels like she doesn't know what what he wants or likes and the bit that absolutely broke me, which is like that she makes him some bread,

but she doesn't give him the bread because she feels like, is that embarrassing to give someone bread? When it's like, I just give him a bread. Also, she just talks about Tescoes. I know, but she's panicking. She's panicking.

It's like, so it's all very well and good loving someone. But in terms of what she communicates, it's that there's a good vegetarian section in Tesco's. And I was getting so frustrated with her. Oh, I found it so heartbreaking because you do get to hear Rosaline's point of view. that she knows she's babbling about Tesco.

She knows she's not saying anything. But equally, Phil doesn't go, hey, mom, like, take breath, it's okay. Like, they're both so struggling to reach each other. But she's a little bit judgmental of his lifestyle. And I do understand that. The parents worry and that they hear things that are unfamiliar to them when they think, well, they just want you to be, you know,

settled romantically and work life and those kind of things. But actually, so much of that is not listening, not asking another question. You know, you ask one question, and then you respond to that answer rather than going, oh, the child feel the same. I think they're both, like, that's what I thought was so brilliant about it. And then when he walks away and he's like, fuck, what have I done?

Like, there's my mum struggling to find the platform and he tries to get back to her. And I was like, I think that's the problem with communication. It's like, parent and child both could do with like, hey, you're not asking a question. You're not saying. But nowadays, I would say, I guess I'm just on the child's side. Yeah, you really are. Because I feel like young people do so much work. And then this is such a huge burden for them to not only understand their parents,

but like the parents don't go to therapy. The parents aren't listening to podcasts. But then when you read what Rosaline's been through. Oh, look, it's heartbreaking. I'm just saying it's not fair. It's not fair for the child to have all of the burden. But I would agree because I think it's not fair for the parents have all of the burden. I think it should be shared.

Like it's not fair to be like, oh, well, the mum should do everything. No. It's like both these people need to meet in the middle. And that's what I thought you captured so well, those moments with parents where you have such an inane conversation. Both of you know it's inane about Tesco. And then you both walk away thinking, what the fuck were we talking about Tesco for?

But it's like, it's like trying to reach through a fog and being like, I'm trying to tell you I love you by telling you there's a vegetarian section in Tesco. It's really good. And it's that's, it is awful, but it's like just gets stuck sometimes. Because he said the distance that he's moved to Hackney, that Shabir, it's only 20 minutes away.

But it's not the same as he's moved to Romford. It's like, no, he's moved to Hackney. He's moved to a different planet. His world is different. And the fact they used to read together and now she doesn't know what books he reads and doesn't know what to ask him. It's just, I just find it really poignant.

Yeah. I guess with the stuff about, like, I guess I was interested in the fact that they can't really say what they mean or don't really say what they mean. I think I was interested in, like, the ways that they try or fail to express, like, love and care. And, like, so much of the book is, like,

the tension of it is these characters who like, yeah, can't say what they mean. And there's such sort of, yeah, there's such kind of like distress in that because like all of these characters, they sort of feel that they've got these really like important parts of themselves which they have no way of making known to the people around them. They've either not got the words for them or even if they did have the words for them, the words would be insufficient and they'd still feel not understood and not seen. And that causes such kind of like anguish for the characters. And likewise, it causes so much anguish for the people on the receiving end of that

who are like really kind of need and want stuff from them. And it's like, you're talking about Tesco. It's like you're talking about Greg's. Like what's what's going, what's happening? But I guess part of where I saw, or have got to with the book is that for lots of different reasons, some people go through life or reach a certain point in their life, with really kind of developing the means to express what they think and feel in a way that feels kind of all right for them. And even when

they kind of do find ways to express that still feel ultimately, I suppose, a bit isolated or likes, even when around people still feel like ultimately unable to make these important parts of themselves seen and understood. But that even when people can't verbally express that sort of love and affection, they're expressing it often, like nonverbaly, like all the time. And just because it's not said with words doesn't actually mean it's not felt and understood as well. And there's these kind of nonverbal communications happening like all the time. and that those are also real and important. This is very Esther Perel territory now. I think she would be saying is you actually are being shown a lot of love.

You just don't interpret it as love, but that is what they're bringing. Do you want to be married or do you want to be right? This is my favourite, Esther Perel. They were just like, oh, what's the end of the episode? I'd like to be right, actually. Can we talk about the whale? Yeah. Oh, the whale.

Yes, because obviously it's set in 2019 and you, In your book, there has been a beach whale, which sort of did happen. There was three whales sighted in the Thames. Yeah. But the one, have you seen the one in the natural history museum, the whale who got stuck? Oh, it didn't survive. Yeah. It's not the one from 2006, wasn't it?

Yeah. Yeah, in the National Western Museum now. I've not seen it in person. No. But yeah, it would like to. It's very near, if you're ever even near South Kensington, it's quite near the entrance. You can just pop in and say hello. Oh, no, it's okay.

Yeah, convenient. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, the whale, so it's kind of weirdly a thing that's happened, like, not infrequently, like whales in the terms. Like it is a thing that sort of happens like every few years. And it's like, oh, there's always like a bit of kind of media around it. But there was one in particular in 2006 who, for some reason, was like a way bigger kind of like hit than all the other whales. Like that one kind of captured the...

I think we just saw it more. I feel like I remember it because there was a really good shot of it like, you know, this isn't true, but like by Big Ben or something. So it was just like your brain was like, what? I think it was near the London eye. It was something that you knew the Thames and then you saw a whale and your brain went, it's there? Because if someone says where on the Thames, you're like, oh right, mouth of the estuary, I guess. It's not like literally on the South Bank. But it looked like it come to visit us.

That's what it felt like as London. Yeah. It's come all the way to say hi. It knows something. Yeah. It feels meaningful. Can't help them put a narrative to it. Because it's so strange, you know, it feels like it's, it's completely incongruent with what you expect to see in the terms, you know.

But also that's it. So the city river, you take it, you just go, oh yeah, that's some water in the city. And the idea of like, there's fish in it. I know. I know. It joins up with the sea in its nature. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I guess that we don't have as much as you would have done 300 years ago of being, like seeing it being used to bring things in from the sea. It's like the Uber boat goes up and down it. It's if you want to get to Greenwich quickly. It's handy. Yeah.

But yeah, something about seeing a whale in it is like, oh, we are wild beings living by the sea. Yeah. I was reminded so much because there was a beached whale in the book. Whale tattoo? The whale tattoo. Yes. Have you ever read that? No, I've not.

John Ransom, he won the Polari Prize for it. And then he won the Polari Prize for Gallipers, his second book. But yeah, his is set in Norfolk. And it really reminded me of that as well as another queer love story. And a whale gets beached. and but in you know on the Norfolk flats kind of thing and everyone is and that's really smelly and rotting and a sign I guess of this huge sort of disruption in nature and he this character in it feels like the whale is talking to him as well yeah that's what I thought because I wondered if your whale was a nod to that whale but so let me ask then

so the sea is gay yes yeah yeah yeah the sea is gay yeah yeah so on the whale and also on the sea being gay I guess with so with the with the with the whale part of the reason I'd been writing the book for a couple of years before the whale came into it and I'd wanted a sort of I suppose a fictional news story that I could put in the book that the different characters could respond to as a way of tying like disparate plots together and in 2021 there was there was a whale that year in May and when I saw that in the news I'd been kind of struggling with the book for a while, actually. When I saw that in the news, I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, there'll just be a whale in the book. You just swam in.

Yeah, it just swam in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it fits so perfectly. It's so funny when you hear these things retrospectively, because I can't imagine this book without the whale in it. Yeah, I was interested in this book, and something I really just enjoy in life is, like, the pleasure of, like, a sense of occasion and, like, kind of communal experience that everyone's a bit a part of. And that was kind of part of why I put the whale in the book. He's like weird kind of public kind of moments that like everyone's a bit involved in. And it's just, it's so like fun and like such a lovely part of life.

When that kind of happens in the city where this like big weird thing happens and everyone can talk about it. And people are so funny. Yeah. When he realized there's hundreds and hundreds of memes. And I like it when then someone will collect like BuzzFeed or them will click. and we'll collect all the best memes. And you go, everyone is so fun. We don't have these moments as much anymore because, you know, it's like, you know,

we don't all watch the same television and we don't all watch the same channels. So when stuff like this happens, it becomes rarer. And when Garibala has a big son. Yes. Yes. Just that's just so fun. We should talk about Maggie a bit as well. Again, I thought it was such another interesting character.

And again, maybe we've covered this already, but the idea that she is an artist and is living in London for that reason, but I thought it was interesting that she is in her 30s or hitting 30, which I think is a bit of a change, isn't it? Because I think we imagine, oh, Hackney in London is full of like 21-year-olds was actually, no, no, it's now full of 30-year-olds being like, what I haven't made it, or I'm not doing the art I want to do, I'm working in a cafe, I need to move back to Basildon. And I thought that was interesting, that age shift that I think makes your book feel very current. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess in some ways that was, I mean, I'm in my early 30s, was sort of in my late 20s when I began writing it. So in some ways, I was kind of writing about the world that I was in really. But I guess,

I guess part of why, like, setting it during that time of life for a lot of the characters was there's this sense of kind of like endings where like, or like a lot of the characters feel this kind of like pressure to be like, okay, what's like the shape of your life going to be? You're going to like have like a sort of family life. You're going to like not like do something else. And so many of the characters, part of the tension between them is they feel, they feel really worried and afraid that they're on this like threshold or something that's going to make them unhappy or it's like not going to be the right thing for them, but they've sort of got to move

forward nonetheless and feel very joy. by, so like, one of the storylines is, yeah, so Maggie, who is, yeah, pregnant and moving, moving back to her hometown to have the kid, and her best friend, Phil, who's kind of living in, like, a, like, you know, warehouse and is in this quite, sort of, like, compelling, but sad, but sexy, kind of polyamorous situation. and he's really sensitive to the idea that she would like judge him as like, you know, unsurious, unresponsible, maybe a bit pathetic. And she's really sensitive to the idea that he'll kind of judge her as like, you know,

whatever, normative, like. Yeah, boring. Boring. And it sort of like creates this like tension between them because they're both like kind of really alert to the idea that the other one is kind of judging them. Yeah, that spikeiness you get when it's preemptive. It's like you've thought it about yourself, so you're so ready. Yeah.

Especially with someone from home, someone who's known you when you were not who you are or who you wanted to be. Siblings. Yeah. Sometimes it's like what they can do is go, that's not who you are. Yeah. And you go, oh, I actually am now. And then they go, no, that's not you. That's who you think you are.

That's who you want to be. That's the rebrand. Yeah. And it's like the first version you presented is that's the original. That must be the truth rather than like with fluid people. and we move and we change. But there's always someone like from your past you'd be like, no.

Can I ask you about writing process? So did you write the whole thing before pitching it to showing anyone? Yeah, yeah, it did. So I started working on it. Yeah, in 2019, I was working in different jobs at that time. I used to do sort of like comms and marketing.

And I was working on it in the mornings before work. weekends. Evenings and weekends. Evenings and weekends. Exactly. Sorry. And you also come from a spoken word background.

Yeah. So you had sort of been doing that, but not novel writing. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I mean, part of the reason why I wanted to like transition out of that or like try novel writing was what in some ways was to do a sort of like frustration at how. kind of untenable that was becoming for me kind of like money wise in the sense that it was I was treating it like a full-time job in itself on top of already having a full-time day job

and I was kind of reaching kind of 30 at that point and I was kind of like okay like for the rest to my like I really want to do this for the rest of my life like something's got to give a little bit so I sort of decided to write a novel which is maybe like maybe was yeah not not like a totally kind of like wise bet in terms of trying to have a long term financial financially viable kind of life and career but it felt like there was more of a chance of kind of like really sort of I suppose like really professionalising really kind of having yeah more sustainable career through working, yeah, in novel writing, working with a publisher,

then making the kind of spoken word stuff that I was. So I started writing it, and then I got some Arts Council funding, which meant I was able to work, like, less in my jobs. So kind of for a couple of years on and off, I was like occasionally writing it full-time, occasionally writing it part-time. Like kind of, yeah, there was a kind of push-and-pull for a while.

But then, so I basically finished writing it like that, and then sent it to literary agents and then got signed with an agent and then we sent it to publishers. So was there a long period where you didn't have anyone's or giving you feedback? It was just you by yourself. Yeah, well, I was lucky in that, like, there were like friends, friends who were kind of up for giving feedback. And so, I mean, some of those were like, some of those friends were really, really, you know, generous with their time and, and honesty. So I was really lucky in that sense. But yeah, a lot of the time I was by myself with it, which I mean, in some ways that was like amazing to kind of like be able to kind of do whatever I want it in a really low pressure way.

And in lots of ways, like I really, really didn't know what I was doing. Like looking back now, it was actually, it was quite like foolhardy. Like I was just like, oh yeah, I'm just going to write this like multi-voice, like intricately kind of plotted novel. which I really, really didn't know how to do, but I just kind of thought, I kind of, yeah, I just thought I could and would. But like lots of the things I was writing for ages were like, yeah, quite pretty sort of shoddy in lots of ways.

But having the freedom to work on those by myself, though, was amazing. And so was it affected by lockdown because of where you started, when you started? Yeah, so I'd been working on it for, yeah, I guess about a year when lockdown started, most of it was written during lockdown, which, I mean, that was really good in terms of, like, from a practical perspective, in terms of, like, I had a lot. I was able to set up my life around it much more than I would have been of always, like, going out to an office every day. But it was, it definitely, like, shaped the emotional sort of life of the book in the sense that a lot of the book is, yeah nostalgic and about like longing and endings and for like a lot of the time that I was writing

it I yeah felt this real I mean yeah like nostalgia and longing for like what felt like it had been like lost and what I'd been there before and I guess like at that time particularly in the kind of first year of lockdown there was this sense of like is it ever coming is ever coming back like is this kind of is this like a permanent new way of living and I think I felt quite yeah like it felt a lot of longing and fear around that, which I think did kind of end up being part of the book. I guess the version of the summer that is presented in the book, it is, like in some ways, it's very like tethered to place and time. And yeah, I wonder even if like writing a London summer book now is like London quite different now in ways. I mean, it's been six years, which I mean,

yeah, it is a long time in the life of the city. Like even like a lot of, you know, like on street levels, so many areas look totally different, like new buildings, old buildings gone. Well, you have that as well with this warehouse they're all living in, which is, you know, suddenly they're being evicted, which, yeah, if you live in London, you've had friends that are living in an insane. Yeah. 25 people live it.

Oh, now they don't. Yeah. Which, yeah, can happen within weeks in London. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, actually, the warehouse in the book and also the flat that Ed and Maggie live in are both sort of inspired by, you know, real places in which I've lived. But yeah, both of which are, you know, gone now. And, and I mean, much missed in lots of ways. I mean, particularly that the warehouse, which is sort of described in the book and which is, yeah, inspired by this real one. That had been there actually for like 10, you know, 10 years and was a sort of, yeah, what was a real.

focal point of like quite you know quite you know extended kind of community around South London which yeah that is yeah totally totally gone now and I guess I mean that's like that's an old story there's been like lots of places like that in in the city over the course of many years but there's something yeah I think the version of it at the moment the sort of like housing precarity and what that means for how people can set up like long term community and lives, I think is pretty, yeah, I think there's a kind of different, it's a bit different now, I think. It's definitely moved into like people and memories rather

than buildings, whereas I think like 50s and 60s, it was like the buildings are the memories. This is the building we all lived and grew up and we lived on this street. We were all neighbours. That's what unites us. Whereas now it's like, oh, we live nowhere near each other, but we used to live in a warehouse and we can talk about it. It's almost like oral tradition. Yeah, totally. Yeah. You used to be able to, yeah, I just. just think London is, because of this housing crisis and because of the cost of things, it's, which I think you really got in the book really well, that sense of, yeah, the precarious nature of it, but that you still want to live there. Like, you know, and then you must have

had this, I'm sure you've had this from people in Ireland, like, but why live there? Yeah. Why are you living there? Sounds awful. You're like, everything you hear about it is bad. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's too expensive. Yeah. Oh, the crime is awful. Yeah. And it's really dirty. Yeah. Yeah. And Yeah, my house is being knocked down. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But let me tell you that, that feeling in the summer. Yeah. Yeah, it's really hard to describe it because it is, like, in spite of all that stuff,

all the reasons why it's really difficult is, like, so good. Yeah, so good. And it's kind of, it's sometimes, like, yeah, hard to, like, put words on why that is. But, yeah, I mean, I think it's the best place in the world. People in Dublin just got really angry with you, she. Yeah, yeah. But it's hard, yeah, it's hard. I mean, like, I guess like, I know that by moving here, it's made my life, like, so much better.

And also it's sort of like, it's made, I mean, yeah, it's giving me the life that I really, like, wanted for myself. And I feel very, like, lucky for that. And you've done very, like, it's done very well. That must be nice, like, for people back home to be like, yeah, I did move to London, but also, guys. Yeah, it's nice to tell something to show for it. Publishing sensation dreams can come. come true. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. That is the dream, isn't it? Moved to the Big City, write the books, send it off, and it becomes this huge, huge success. I was going to ask you

about readers actually, because you do explore sort of bullying at school because of homophobia and the fact that for young men being called gay, whether that is because you're gay or because you're out or because you're by or just because it's bullying and it's it's a way of attacking someone is a you know that's a constant reality with young people have you had many young male readers I don't know if young boys read books yeah I don't know yeah it's a good question I've not I've not encountered any but I would be really curious to know I guess it's yeah they probably are like a smaller part of the kind of reading demographic now like I think maybe yeah like less I mean, yeah, less young boys or young men read books than they used to.

I really wish that they did because there's so much of it that is for them. And you feel like they'd benefit so much from it. But then also I wonder if that's almost a cyclical thing that if you were a young man, let's say 15, let's a young man, actually that's a boy. But that reading might be the kind of thing that other boys would tease you for. And so it would be this thing that you just get rid of and you would play computer games. But was that important to you? because I know you've written about, like, your experience growing up

and the violence that you experienced. Was it important to you to sort of keep that, yeah, I guess that look back that a few of these characters have of like, this wasn't easy to get to London and say I'm gay? Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. Like, that definitely felt like a part of the story that I wanted to tell, which, I mean, in some ways it wasn't, I think it happened, like, maybe sort of, like, organically through the writing process

and that I was, I didn't have like a totally, like, clear idea of, like, exactly who the cast of characters were and exactly what, yeah, why they were the way they were. But I guess, I mean, I was ultimately writing about people who were, you know, somewhat like me and somewhat like people I knew. Like, it was definitely, like, while not being, while not kind of mapping directly onto, that real kind of biography still I was like talking about like my world I suppose and that yeah I guess inevitably that that that sort of ended up like having a having something to do with yeah like violence like homophobic violence growing up and what that does to I

I guess I was interested in thinking about what that does to like, yeah, you're like internal sort of life, your sense of yourself, how you feel in your body, how you move. And that felt, yeah, that did feel, I guess, yeah, it felt kind of good to write about and explore in some ways. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Are you writing the next thing? Yes, yes.

Yes, I am. Yeah, I'm working on a new novel. at the moment, Twitch, I'm sort of, I mean, in some ways I'm like fairly far along with it. Like, I've, I mean, I've finished something, I've so, I mean, I've finished something that I'm, I'm calling a first draft, but I think it might turn out that that finished product will be like very, very different from that. Yeah. But it's a, yeah, it's, I mean, yeah, I feel quite excited about it now. And it needs a lot of work. It's like, it's another sort of like community book set in

London, I know this sort of ensemble cast. But I'd say like, yeah, emotionally, the tone feels quite different. And stylistically, it's a little bit different. But it's got, yeah, it's got some similar characteristics to evenings and weekends. And you've quit the proper job now? Yeah. That's exciting. Did you walk in and just slap the heart back down?

Just go see you later, guys. Don't need to be here anymore. Yeah, it's nice. Yeah, it's nice. Although sometimes actually I do sort of, in some ways I do sort of like miss elements of it in that like when I don't know, the structure and routine is pretty good. And actually like it's so weird. I do actually miss like going out to an office and like I don't know why. Like when you're doing it, it's like not really that nice and like getting, you know, getting your Tesco lunch and stuff.

Actually like I don't know. I kind of miss. I actually kind of miss that. Welcome to aging. Yeah. Because it's what happens if you get nostalgic. for everything just because it's gone. I hated it.

So it happens a lot with stand-up comedians actually because, you know, of course, of course you have to work for actual money because a bit like we've spoken word, there was just years and years without getting paid and you need to actually fund to get to gigs, etc, etc. And then once people quit, it's like amazing.

I've gone pro, we say, we've gone pro, we've gone pro, and then after six months you're like, I don't meet anyone, I don't learn anything, I've got nothing to talk about. Yeah, exactly. We're going to have to go to Thought Park. Yeah, yeah. to find something.

It's like that 30 rock joke, isn't it, that Tracy Jordan is so rich, all his stand-up is like, you know when you're so rich? And the audience's like, no. You lose that. And he'd go, oh, that's why you to have those conversations.

You need to be around people who annoy you, who you'd never have chosen to spend any time with to have life experiences sometimes. Yeah, totally, totally. Yeah, there's something about, because I guess when you're,

like, if you're, most of my work sort of, like, writing, It's like obviously I work with an editor, agent, publicist, all these people, but most of it is like pretty solitary. And there is something about, especially if you're doing solitary work from home, which I've been doing sort of, yeah, for a while now, there is something about that that really kind of does kind of take you out the world a little bit. And that doesn't always feel that good for the soul or something. Also, the whole drinking after work thing, it is so great. and the more you dislike your job, the better it feels your job to have finished. And you'd be outside.

Like, I don't have to go back for 12 hours or 14 hours. Yeah. And clocking off on a Friday as well, especially in a sunny day. Yeah. It's kind of, there's kind of nothing quite like it. Yeah. You love your job. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Ashin, thank you so much for talking to us. The book is amazing. It's out on paperback now. We both loved it. And it's a perfect time to read it. Oh, it's a perfect time.

Yeah. Thank you for having me. Thank you. Keep you by listening to The Weirdo's Book Club. My new children's book, Where Did She Go? It's Available to Buy Now. Evenings and Weekends by Oshie McKenna is also available to buy now. And Sarah is going on tour.

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