Sara & Cariad's Weirdos Book Club - First Born Daughter by Katherine Ryan with Katherine Ryan

Episode Date: October 29, 2026

This week's book guest is First Born Daughter by Katherine Ryan.Sara and Cariad are joined by TV's Katherine Ryan, the award winning comedian, writer, presenter, podcaster and actor.In this episode they discuss parenthood, musicals, cleaning, broodiness and bums.Trigger warning: In this episode we discuss miscarriage and post natal depression.Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you!First Born Daughter is out now and available here.Support the podcast, enjoy ad-free listening and more weird and wonderful bonus content by signing up to our Patreon at patreon.com/c/weirdosbookclubFollow Sara & Cariad’s Weirdos Book Club on Instagram @saraandcariadsweirdosbookclub and Twitter @weirdosbookclubProduced, recorded and edited by Naomi Parnell for Plosive.Assistant Producer is Amy Townsend-Lowcock for Plosive.Artwork by Welcome Studio. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Sarah Pasco. And I'm Carriead Lloyd. And we're weird about books. We love to read. We read too much. We talk too much. About the too much that we've read. Which is why we created the weirdos book club. A space for the lonely outsider to feel accepted and appreciated. Each week we're joined by amazing comedian guests and writer guests to discuss some wonderfully and wonderfully and crucially weird books, writing, and just generally being a weirdo. You don't even need to have read the books to join in. It will be a really interesting, wide-ranging conversation and maybe you'll want to read the book afterwards. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you. This week's book guest is Firstborn Daughter by Catherine Ryan. What's it about? It's about the pressure of being a firstborn daughter and how that makes you amazing and very tired. What qualifies it for the Weirdo's Book Club? Well, Catherine is an overachiever to a weird degree. In this episode, we discuss parenthood, musicals, cleaning, broodiness and bums.

And joining us this week is Catherine Ryan herself. You know, Catherine, she's an award-winning comedian, writer, presenter, podcaster, actor, her own sitcom Netflix the Duchess, which stars Steen Sarah's husband. She's done tours, Glitter and Mrs. And most recently, firstborn daughter, she has been on every panel show you can think of. She's been on RuPaul's Dragways. She has her own podcast called telling everybody everything and what's my age again. She is one of the legends of the comedy circuit. And we're so lucky to have her here. Welcome to the podcast. Catherine Ryan. TV's Catherine.

Thank you. And podcast. Daughter, mother legend. Fucking exhausted. It says on your book. But I think Legend should be first. I will say the publishers put everything other than firstborn daughter. They were like, how about, you know, you know what they're like, the marketing team. And they're great at Bonnier, but they were like, Confessions of, that was new. And then I would never, in my own book, be like, daughter, what does it say? Mother, legend. Can you imagine?

Fucking exhausted. But then I'm also quite amenable. I'm a people pleaser. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's called Confessions of a Firstborn daughter. This is your new book. it's so funny. It's so funny.

Congratulations. Oh my God, it's like having you just in your ear, it's just like I can hear you so clearly. The voice is so strong in this book. I feel like you ladies could read it in 30 minutes. It's not a race. No, I know. It's not a race.

I didn't want to. It's like you're just hanging out with me. It's telling me stuff I didn't know. Some stuff I knew a little bit of, but not all of it. And also as a firstborn daughter. Sarah is an official firstborn daughter. I don't think we can sub-categorize this. No, but it's good for people listening.

Because I have an older brother I definitely am a firstborn Because daughters are different than brothers Exactly but if people feel like you have to be the first girl It's just the first girl in the family Yeah I do highlight the caveat that I know your older brother is an idiot

Yes You said it You said it And that's true of everyone that I meet Who is a firstborn daughter Because they only have brothers Or one older brother or several God bless them

But I think I've delved into some of the psychoanalysis which is largely unproved, but it was fun to go through all the, like, Instagram Reels and TikTok's, my scientific journey. But there's birth order theory. And then they didn't apply gender to that right away. So then when you look at that through the lens of gender, we are parentified very differently to the boys, our generation anyway. Maybe not in Sarah's feminist household. No, I was thinking as I read it, I'm so glad I had boys because otherwise I'd be failing.

If I had a girl, I mean, you know, we had two boys. We were older. We were thinking, do we have a third? You have this conversation. It wouldn't be lovely to have a girl. And then you'd watch yourself doing that stuff to her over again, expecting her to be responsible. Oh, it's awful.

I have a daughter and a son. And it comes out my mouth without me thinking of being like, can you just, can you, I expect her to do things that I know that he just literally won't and can't. But he can't. So my oldest. Please come to my house, Catherine. Yeah. My oldest daughter is 17. And she's obviously, she was an only child and it is my official firstborn daughter.

But then I waited so long to have more children. Fred's five. Fena is three. And so I feel like she is an honorary firstborn daughter because she doesn't really have that older sister around a lot. She's a firstborn daughter. And she is bossy and she knows what she wants. And she's very athletic and capable. And people see her and they go, oh, because they're 18 months apart.

They're close in age. They go, oh, she can do that because she has an older brother. And I go, no, he can't do that. Well, I can verify this because at Fenner's first birthday, she was acrobatically climbing things that Fred was a bit cautious of. They have different personalities. People do have different personalities. and yeah, you're watching a very, very young child going, you are already tenacious and brave,

and these are the sort of qualities you're ascribing. They love to assign it to a man, don't they? I think you set out so cleverly right from the beginning. Yes, there are lots of great things about being the eldest and strong and, you know, instrumental in helping your family out, but then it comes with this huge burden of responsibility and hyper-independence, which is really common. It's something that you have, that your own mum has,

that your first-born daughter, Violet. has as well. And so while it's a really funny book, it is a thing of like, God, how do we, at what point can you unlearn that once it's in there? And we don't ask for help. And I wouldn't really want to change it. I didn't want to just wax lyrical about like, we're so great. We're the best. We know the three of us privately. We know we are the best. But it is kind of annoying to do this way. Other people don't like it. It is, it is attractive to be vulnerable sometimes. People love to be needed. I shouldn't really be arguing with experts. I do. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. I love that you do that. But also I think what you,

I think what you show really brilliantly is it doesn't make life funner. It's not like, oh, hey, here's a manual for living. You make things so hard for yourself because you can't ever trust anyone else. But then when things go wrong, you only have yourself to deal with. And there's a comfort in that, I think, that you're not like, I knew you were a piece of shit. You got me down. You're like, I knew that I couldn't do that. And that's up to me. And you can have that silent argument with yourself. If life teaches you some lessons about trust and then you go here's the evidence from my experience and now that I am an adult I have learned how to be mainly looking after myself and his and that continue from here but if you're

learning it as a child I think that's the issue is that going from so my parents divorced they were separated from five divorced at seven like your mom's 23 when she had you my mom's 19 so really young parents who and parenting is different if you're still going through childhood at such a young age learning that, that I think is the issue. I'm not arguing that people should be trusted. No, no. Obviously, I think we should all be responsible. But wouldn't it be great to have learned that a bit a bit later? Yeah, because it goes in so deep. Which I get you talk about a lot in the book with your relationship with your mom, of you being her like little helper and confidant, which I liked. I feel like I'm never giving out about or, you know, lamenting about the way

things were or the way I am now. And I'm not like, well, I only do it myself. I'm like, I love being that way. And I tell a story about the show must go on where I'm actively having a miscarriage. And I was so excited to have loads of admin to manage that, to be like, great. Okay, look at my calendar. I only have one window and it's tomorrow before I go to Leeds to get like a full general anesthetic and a surgery to remove the like retained products of conception or whatever it's called. And then I was like, then I shall organize a military operation to get an Annie, my tour manager's car. And then we will go to that. And then I'm still filming the reality show. we'll let them come in the dressing room. That was so peaceful, actually, to go into that autopilot

and to be like, me, me, I got this. I'm fine. Yeah, but it's like an ER doctor, you know, it's a truth. As I know, I found it, I found it so sad reading it, even though I knew it was a competent person dealing with the situation that's going on in her life, which was work, work, and, you know, it's coping, isn't it? It's just a coping mechanism. There's a trauma response to coping, isn't that? The first thing is blindly getting everything done and emotions come later. I've never been an ER doctor, but I have watched the pit. And, you know, when you're bleeding out on the table, it's not, you know, how do I make you breathe now?

I've only got a byro. They do it really calmly. And it's afterwards their legs go sort of wobbly, and your body then goes, that was terrifying. And do you secretly believe that you could perforate the, like, windpipe with a biro? No. I think I can.

I have a secret fantasy. I would trust you to do it. I loved so much what you write. I mean, you say it very casually, like, oh, Instagram Reels. I get a lot of my information. from Instagram Reels? And is that so bad? Is it so bad?

Obviously, you have to check who's giving you that information. But I've learned so much from Instagram. And I feel like I used to watch a lot of television as a chart, like a lot. And people would comment on it. But I was watching a lot of documentaries and news. Same. And so it's not always the medium that's bad. Like social media, like you can learn a lot.

It just depends on what you're choosing, what channel you're watching. And I love that you've mentioned all the TikToks and Instagram that have taught you. Well, I think the three of us probably have very curated algorithms. where we're not looking. I don't have any like secret dirty stuff looking at it. Well, I do have like a reality TV obsession and stuff that I look like that's maybe not highbrow. Fine. But it knows me.

No brow isn't dirty. Like there are men who go, oh my God, all the horror on the internet. It's just beheadings and porn styles. That doesn't come up from me actually. No, no. I'm getting wallpapers and how to increase your iron in your diet. Is it. It's lovely.

I'm getting these like AI scenarios now where they go, what would happen if all the oxygen on earth disappeared for five seconds. What would happen if, da-da-da-da, all these different... What would happen? Tsunamis all the time. Yeah, always a tsunami. Just always. Spoiler alert, another tsunami.

But they did one that's like, what would happen if all the men on earth disappeared? And it's one shot disappearance. We could make more, but they're just, poof, gone in second. And they did it with women. And this is not someone with a bias reporting this, like, constructed scenario. It's like some algorithm. And when the men disappeared, we were a little bit. confused for like five years and oil rigs were unattended and we're like, oh-oh. And then these little

cartoon like stick women figured it out. It was fine. We were like marginally inconvenienced. And then when all the women disappeared, it was violent immediately and it was the end of humanity. Yeah. Yeah. Super quick. Really quick. I guess it's like the power. Did you ever hear about the power, which is Naomi Alderman's book, which was that women, the next stage of evolution of women was having like sort of electrical charges that went through you. So if someone touched you in a way you didn't want to be touched, you had suddenly had this way of really repelling them. So it's like women were given the strength of men.

Yes, please. Was this made into a series? Yes. Yeah. Oh, and I met this wonderful Naomi. Yeah. At the launch of this series. Yes.

Ah, yeah. So it's such a... I know the book you're talking about from red carpets. Go on. Everyone got so excited by the idea straight away because thinking about it. Such a good idea. It's just great. Oh, and then when they did that and they did that and they did that and suddenly we're safe.

and that, women not being scared where they went, that would be the hugest and quickest change. Dave Chappelle spoke about, I don't know how we phrased it, the most concrete moment where he had empathy for women and what they go through day to day when he was paid cash at a gig, but he was paid like $10,000 cash. And he put in his pocket and we walked outside and he went, gosh, I really feel unsafe.

I love so much the Wonder Sykes routine, Wanda Sykes, who you mentioned in your book, firstborn daughter, putting her vagina in a box before she went out. Like, how great would it be to go out knowing if anyone tries to assault you? She's nothing there. It's fine. My vagina's in a box at home. Sorry, it's locked away.

Hey, before you go up, you got your keys, put your vagina in a box. Yeah. They've got this thing that you can insert that's like a claw. That scares me. But there's been trials and it shows that you expected someone to have, they use it against you. It's really dark. They invented them because of places where they've got war and crimes against women and sexual crimes against women are prevalent.

They thought, oh great, there's this thing you can just insert and it will shredder dick. That's not the exact wording on the box. Is that what the doctor said? But then it's been used against people because if you were preempting it, why would you protect yourself from it? Also, you could go out hunting. Oh, dick shredders.

Like Charlize's there. That is a film I want to see. Who's like, legend, Dick Shredder. Dick Shredder. I wonder in interviews why they always ask female comedians about sexual violence, but then we've brought it out. No, we did ourselves.

Yeah. It's because in a fun way. We felt the structural urge. Because we're so used to it. Yeah, my next question was, what do you say to people who think women aren't funny? There are so many things that you touch on that I feel like, oh, God, I want to know more about that. And one of the things actually, because we were talking just a moment about anxiety, was Bobby having sort of postnatal. Yeah.

Truth of thoughts. Which is common they've now realised in men that they can have the same kind of hormonal imbalance depression that women also get after birth. Well, especially with his history. He doesn't remember his childhood. He lost his dad really young. He's got this, you know how Prince Harry speaks about just an empty space where his protective part of his brain just blocked out his mother entirely, which is so sad. Bobby has the same thing.

And then we got together very quickly. And then we had some miscarriages. And then we had Fred. And Fred is his deceased dad's name. I mean, we really set him up for failure emotionally. And then he also had to look after Fred quite a bit because I believed him. I was trying not to be a firstborn daughter in this scenario when he said he wanted to be a stay-at-home dad.

I was like, all right, then it has been locked down. I haven't done that much work. I will go and film this series. I will go on tour and you can be a stay-at-home dad. And I think he's a great stay-at-home dad now that they're old enough to speak. But to give him a newborn. And I was still breastfeeding.

Or anyone. Anyone. Anyone. So I would say, even myself, I had a newborn. It's a job you're not qualified for. You do it by learning. I think there are some instincts. I think you've got especially brilliant.

I love it. Give me all the newborn. Intrusive thoughts, I was told that it's nature of actually doing some really good evolutionary protection because it's making you keep imagining the worst so you're ultra careful. But unfortunately for your body and existence is that I felt like I kept grieving the worst happening. So I don't know if that was true for Bobby. It's like when I saw the baby fall down the stairs, it felt real, the emotions of it.

My body reacted as if it had happened. So you had that with both boys or just your first. But it was sleep deprivation for me. Yeah. Because the thing is, if you're working up every 90 minutes, I didn't dream because my kids woke up so much. So I wasn't ever having 90 minutes. And then, of course, your mental state is completely different. So I couldn't have said it was hormonal.

I would say it was sleep. It's probably a combination, though. And Bobby wasn't really able to articulate what he was going through at the time. And also, and this was not that long ago, five years ago. But we didn't really know about male postpartum or like partner postpartum, whatever. he just was on edge. He doesn't speak much anyway. I didn't really know what was going on and he looks back on it. When he came out of it, he realized quite slowly, oh, I had a really terrible time. And when he reflects on it now, he was having exactly like accidents, thinking about it all the time. He couldn't sleep. He would just watch Fred sleep. So he was, even though, I mean, I described it as though it wasn't around. Fred was exclusively breastfed for 10 months. So I was around. But yeah, if I had known. And that is a different. difficult feminist admission, really, because I do think we all do, me more than most internalized misogyny surely. And I think, oh, I shouldn't have gone straight back to work.

And I shouldn't have left a man alone with a newborn. I should have done it. And I've done it once before. And again, the first point of out of thing, or whatever you want to call it, I was like, I should have been in charge of this. And it would have been fine. I think that's the retrospect thing, because I always felt so lucky that I have a flexible, self-employed job. Because like you, I get to spend loads of times. If I'm not at work, I'm with my children. And then I think about other women, I guess it's because that's who I empathise with. That's what I care about.

Thinking, or if you have a 9 to 5 job or you have a certain amount of maternity leave that you're allowed to leave your business for, you have to go back. Your children are in a nursery. If you're very lucky, you've got an amazing mom or mother-in-law and it's family that you leave your child with. But you are forced and it is sort of, there isn't a choice. Barbaric, yeah. There's no deviation.

And then those women, I just think that's what's really, really difficult about the situation. As you look back and go, was there a way I could have avoided that? And I don't really know that there is. We have to work. We have to survive. We have to be the best parents we can be. And that does also involve leaving the house and doing something where they're not attached to you. I remember having this conversation with my husband who also did loads of the caring. And I remember we talked about like when I closed the front door to go to work, I feel like I'm going the wrong way. And he said when I, and he's a very, very, very feminist, like, not macho person at all. And he was like, when I close the door and go to work, I feel like, I feel like, I'm going to work.

I'm doing the right thing. Yeah. I don't have any guilt. I feel like, yeah, I'm going where I'm meant to go. And I was like, I feel my whole body, like, my brain is like, you need to go and have money. This is a good opportunity. You'll be back in a couple of hours. And my whole body is like, where are you going?

The baby's inside. And it was such a, I think it's quite a shock if you have been prior to children, a rational person. Yeah. Who hasn't thought, well, you know, they'll be fine. And also, if anyone had told you, if anyone had told me while I was pregnant, I know you think that now. diary or planning for 18 months or two years in advance. I wanted to ask you about the musical actually. Oh my God, the musical.

Because we booked things in. Sometimes it's two years. I had conversation with you. And also I didn't learn from any of my friends who do you have been to do it. I told you. I told you. You told me in public. You said, don't do it in capital letters under my door announcement.

I didn't learn from anyone. I remember you going through it and telling me these things. I kept saying, but I could see it wasn't going in. I was like, well, you just have to figure out. I've moderated at certain points. without fear. Can I say my favourite moment? Yes.

When you first flew to Australia. And you said to me, the baby will sleep the whole way because it's like a big white noise machine. She had all these books. She was like, I'm going to read all these books on the way to Australia. And I went... Two.

Two books. Oh, are you? She was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because, you know, they'll sleep. So I can... That's when I'm going to do this reading. And I was like... Oh, okay.

And I remember thinking, well, maybe she's right. Maybe she's right. She's right. And when I unpacked my bag, I wept at what I thought. the flight was going to go back. I had eye covers in there. He was three months old.

I was pumping while he was asleep for two hours. And then Steen not putting the lid on the bottle properly. And it all spilled. So I then was covered. I was covered in milk. And I would have cried. And so I had to then go and change a baby and myself. The thing about the sleep deprivation,

because you're going through this. And obviously, I'm not saying that it's easier for any other parents. But some of the things you do are not just highly pressured. You're in the public. doing things. And I think that's where your competence from your childhood, your ability to lock down and do really well does serve you so well because other people would just fall apart or cancel it. I never cancel anything. I never cancel anything, but I haven't been doing as well. Like I reflect on the last five years. I'm like, God, that tour when I was so tired. And then this show when I was

unprepared. And I can only look at the day ahead or maybe sometimes the week ahead if it's a slow week. but I cannot metabolize more than that. And my schedule, I just focus on that, and I get it done. And I am tired. And I wrote the routine just because I know people are nosy and I'm nosy. I just write the things that I would like to read about other people. I put my shopping list in there. I just like it's interesting, gossip, whatever.

I love your honesty. I think it is important to say to other parents because also I know it's not trying to be self-helpy, but you are saying to someone, this is what I'm doing. So I've ever seen snappy or I meet you in public and I don't want to have a lovely chat. Or equally, I look like the woman has got it all. It's like this is the system that is behind the one. woman that's got it. Like, there has to be a system that's making that train go forward.

I don't think you have, your work hasn't got worse. I think, potentially, the thing that some people think about stand-up and some people do have instead of is fun. Some people, like enjoy it. Yeah. And so it feels like it's going better. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It feels less like a job, whereas I think when you are coping with the thing that's in front,

if you get through today, then we'll deal with tomorrow. The possibility for fun is very small, but you can still be very, very funny, which you are. Otherwise, our industry is too brutal. You just wouldn't be here, but it would just be like, oh yeah. Yeah, I don't. And also I think it's interesting, what does bad, like bad mean or not going well? It's like you've had three kids in that five years.

Like that is, that's not nothing. That's the thing that, like, it impacts, doesn't necessarily mean like your work is not as good. But it will, it's real. You can't like just like take it away from it. It takes energy. Yeah. It does take energy. And I wonder if I, comedy is about noticing things. Yeah.

I love that when you said this in your show. Yeah, like I'm too tired to notice things. Oh my God. I don't notice things. You said noticing things is a privilege. Yeah, I agree. And the time and also being obsessed with it. I think when I had Theodore, I grieved for a time where I was able to be obsessed just with what my Edinburgh show was going to be,

because the investment of that amount of brain space. There's nothing funny than talking to, like, a performer who has the time in space and the way that they can talk about projects and things like that. And you're just looking like, I don't have that much time. for me. I don't have a me space. So it's like so nice to see someone be like, I'm going to do this and I'm going to do that. I'm thinking this would work. You're like, I'll just do what, what I can within the five minutes that I have. And that's it. I'm going to brush my teeth. That's my goal. We're going to leaving the house and realize, I haven't. I haven't brushed my teeth.

Let's talk about Beatlechews the musical. Oh my God. Oh, my God. I'd heard via Bobby, he told Steen, you're going to be in a Western musical. And boy, was I jealous. You were. Yeah, we're the same. Because I was going to talk to you about Hades Town. Cool. It was very cool. And it would have been the worst thing in my life if I had done it.

Because it was also why Steen was in Australia for two months. But I was like, how can you turn this down? I'm still 14-year-old me. Same. And you have an amazing voice and you can't, you could easily do a musical. So you're also encouraging me, Carrie. So where did it fall off for you? When did the audition process start?

I went to see the show and then I did this callback audition. And I said, if I had seen the show, I wouldn't have. But I also was thinking, you can't give this to me. because if you give it to me, I can't turn it down. And it's going to ruin my life and my kid's life. Because it's eight shows a week, this is right, so Beetlejuice, eight shows a week. They said that Holland could have a dressing room. Yep.

Fine, in the West End, in a horrible Victorian theatre. Put the baby to sleep, go on stage. This is what you were thinking. And also, you still be doing the other work. You're still committed to writing this book. So you're writing the book in the day. And doing your podcasts and your other comedy stuff. So Holland was newborn.

I'm recovering from the facelift. Yeah. I, and I love that you have. have had the exact same experience, Sarah, because we started in a musical theater. We love musical theater. We champion the Western. Also, it's the ultimate in performing. Yeah.

It's the ultimate in a West End theater. Also, it's the ultimate and everything else. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Pop stars. Yeah, I know. Teenage pop sensations. You should be in a girl band. And also, it's important to do it while you're young.

We can move around and stuff. In my 50s, I'm just the mom in Blood Brothers. Okay. But actually, I think our opportunity, because God protected us both from our West End musical debuts because we thought, I'll do it. And God looked at your children and mine and your schedule and mine. And he said, you're going to cry every day. You're going to love the first week, second week be bored, and the third week going contractually,

how do we pretend I've got glandular fever? Yes. But I think our time will come when our children are older. Yes. And we're like 60s. Bates would be a bit. Yeah. I wanted to hear about it.

I did the audition. That went well. I came back for another where I sang the songs. I did some lyrics. I learned it. I really was pretty good. Yeah. But it was a bit, my voice was a bit scratchy.

And I was like, I don't know if it's from having a baby or whatever else I was doing. But they lowered it a little bit for me. And then they changed the arrangement a little bit for me. And I sang it again. And we had contracts everything. Wow. It was like go. It was carved out in the schedule.

And they said, the only thing. is someone in America needs to hear a recording of you singing it. And that's like the last thing. But they do need to sign off because of the new arrangement. Because they, you know, the West End, they're very particular. It's all writing. If you've written a book. Yes.

So whomever that was heard my voice and said, no. Wow. And then they were just like, oh, she can't actually do it because this guy said no. And right away, I thought, this is God's plan. Good. And then all summer long, Bobby and I looked at each other. We were like, this and beetle juice. Yeah.

Can you imagine beetle juice. Beetle juice. Yeah. Beetle. We keep saying it and I just worry that I don't have that filter

to turn down. That's it. If anyone says to you, you're being mad. Yeah. You go, yeah, but I'm still going to do it. There's like the compulsion

to do it is so strong. Yeah. I looked at my diary and I looked at what it overlapped with. I also looked financially what I would have lost. Yep.

Like the actual stuff in November and December that you'd have to cancel. The biggest, all of the years, there's no way you can, and you're not available to do anything else at all.

My agent had asked, can we carve out, you know, these. And they're like, that's not, no. Yeah. Especially because they're advertising it based on you. I would have lost in every single sense of the word. There's a very excited West End producer listening though,

who's like, in two years' time, I'm going to email both their agents. Are the kids sleeping? I'll tell you what I was listening to before I went in to my auditions, the pussycat dolls when I grow up. And I kept getting fizzy on the lyrics. Yeah. And I said, I don't know why I thought that being in a West End musical is famous, but that is my view of, that's actual famous.

But it's very hard to separate from what your child self thought would be the most fun thing in the world ever. And that is it. Like your inner child is like, and people say, hey, ask your inner child what it wants to do. And you are being given the opportunity to be like, not just your hobby, your dream. Like this isn't like, go and join a local group. This is like, no, no, the West End with everyone who is job is. It's the showing offness of it. Oh, is that what it is. Just the culture, the stage door and all the friends you would make. All the queer and queer adjacent friends you would make. Yeah, and like, the dressing, it's just the smell of those old theatre. It would have been so cool. But we'll get our moments, Sarah.

And perhaps it's made you more spiritual like it has made me. I found God, exactly like you. I've looked at how other people in the public I do it, you Peter Andres. Yeah, yeah. At your day St Donovan's, they either co-do a part, so like you and I would share, and then suddenly, Oh, guys, that's great. The producers are literally pissing themselves. Like, when can they do? Or the other thing that you do is three-month contracts. Yeah, that's what normally you celebs do, isn't it? Not the six, because yours would have been six months. They adjusted mine so that it was less in the end.

Like, they seemed really keen to have me. But they weren't. It means Catherine Ryan in the West End. And also, this is the thing about your first Western musical. That is the one where people go, oh, I am curious. Oh, I will go and see that show. I mean, it's great casting to have you as Mortiscia and Beatle Juice. It wasn't Martitia.

It was Delia, the girlfriend of the dad, who's wife, you know, the little girl. Yeah. Winona Ryder's possibly. possible stepmom who's like very strange and like earthy. Lou Sanders would be perfect actually. It's like a Lou Sanders on stage and unrelated to the book. Have you seen Lolli Adaphope in O'Mary? No, I saw Jigswant soon before Lolli took her mom. I know. I'm sure she's amazing. It's such a great show.

Did you go immediately? Immediately. I got Laliatafope merch. I have a jumper that I wear with her face on it. People are like, okay. I don't know how she feels about it, but I'm a fan. She loves it. But you bring a different audience to the show. Like, this is why they look at us. And I wonder how the rest of the cast feel.

That's the other thing. Hatred. Yeah, because they work their asses off to get where they are. And then they just drop a celebrity. But they also know, I think they must also know that that's what brings tickets. Yeah, but no one ever loves the economics of capitalism. Have you seen the comeback? No.

Oh, I know of it. Yeah. So it's really brilliant. Miss Rachel, end of list. In the third series, she's in Chicago. It starts with her doing her doing. her Instagram telling her fans that she's about to open on Chicago. The comeback's really great about gender and TV.

Oh, wow. No, I've heard it only good things. So that's what it is. There's stuff where she's not happy with things and she gets pushed back. And then a man says that he feels uncomfortable. I think it's taken up. In the second series, she's bullied by a writer. She's in a sitcom.

The writer, the fucking hates her. And her professionalism, she covers it and, you know, pretends it's not happening. It's so great. but it's very close to the bone. But I think you would enjoy it. I think you do. After Miss Rachel. But you go to bed so early.

You're really strict about the 945 thing. If I'm not working. That's the thing. I don't have a choice. Yeah. Because 11, she'll be up 12.30. Yeah. She'll be up 2 or 3.

Definitely 4. I get her broke down until 5 if I'm lucky. Sometimes I'm not. Yeah. But she doesn't really party trained. How do you cut like that feet? Like, you go, because I used to get so frustrated when they didn't do the sleep. Yeah.

But on your fourth kid, are you like, hmm, this is just like, you're beaten. You're beaten. Do you reach a Zen point? Most days, yes. I got really cross one night recently because she was in a temper. She's old enough now that she's not scared. She's not sad.

I put her in her cot, which has been slept in by none of my children, none. But we still have the decorative. Sure, sure. If anyone comes over, we go, here's the cot. But we all sleep on mattresses on the floor in a mega nursery. But I popped her in there because she started walking so that I could put Fred's pajamas on. We bathed them all together like ducklings. We put all their pajamas on together.

And she was so mad that I'd put her in there And she was like, just wait I mean 30 seconds I was putting up to her just right in front of her And she projectile vomited All over the carpet, all over the duvet, all her dinner so that then she'd be up more in the night with a hungry tummy

And I was like, Holla! Like I was actually fuming to the point that Violet came in the room and she was like, you can't talk to kids like that. So you don't have some frustration when you've tried so hard to do every single thing

and you know that you just need like one piece of like rational behaviour from them and of course their children they don't give it to you. I had something to say about nannies. Oh yeah. Because something you wrote in your book and I saw you talk to rummish about it as well. People's reaction to nannies. The problem with that word is someone who also has childcare is if he said childminder,

everyone would understand. With nannies, people still have like the platonic ideal. What they imagine is posh people's olden day nannies, which they didn't bring up their kids. They handed them off. They were in a nursery with another adult who slept in their room. and people think because my nanny likes to be called a nanny

she doesn't want to be called a childminder she's 25 hours a week but she does loads and she's amazing and she's a trained expert so she's a nanny and then people go so she lives in your house no she lives in

that's right they do ask that yeah because they think it's something that it's not I think it's a very old-fashioned English thing that nanny's you had a house so big you had a room for the nanny so I try to say childcare because I do have support

and my childcare Kirsten shout out to Kirsten I wouldn't have a job without you and I want to dedicate my new novel to her He's going, you can't, it'll creep her out. Because it's also, it's about a woman and her childcare, which isn't based on our relationship.

He said, you can't then say. I said, but I wouldn't have written a book. Is it a crime thriller? No. Okay, then baby's right. You know your wife. I think it better than your husband knows your wife. Do what you want.

But there are bits in my book in the novel where the female character, not based on myself, is thinking, wasn't it a shame I had to marry a man? Once you've got a woman who not only bays your child, but also puts the clothes up from the floor and puts them in the wash machine. The whole three stages of it. It's erotic. Is it an erotic thriller? It's just true love. It's just finally meeting my person. Yeah, it's funny that I think there's a very English snobbishness.

And you mentioned this well, like you have a cleaner that comes in after dinner time. I love this. Oh my God. That's cancelled now. Oh no, it was such a good idea. It was clever. I did it for the summer. I was really busy over the summer. And then Bobby doesn't like. Bobby. Having people in the house, he hides from the cleaner. Yes. I think men are shy. Do you know what? I don't think we call it shyness. I don't want to defend men. publicly.

Certainly not. But something I've noticed in my male husband is that what could look like, it could be labelled as shirking WhatsApp stuff, talking to other parents at nursery, drop-offs, social things. I've realised there's a form of shyness in the same way that he wouldn't complain in a restaurant. He would just eat something rotten and then go and be sick. But what's annoying is I am shy. I don't want to do the WhatsApp and talk to the parents,

But someone has to. It's the whole point of first-ball daughters. Yes. They have someone else who will do it for them. We never have had that. I really do think that's what it is. And we marry someone's youngest son. So you've had to cancel.

So I had this brainwave where I didn't want anyone living with us. But I said, what about? And I pay them very well. I said, what about if the cleaners come by after the dinner rush? Because Bobby and I was actually doing it for him because we had no time at the end of the evening. If I wasn't out in the evening, that – and I'm always just doing. trying to find the right, like, recipe for everyone's joy in my house. Because you're trying to make everyone happy. I don't think about, well, I do think about myself, but I thought that we're

missing out on time because it takes two hours to put the mess. And it's a solvable problem. It's a solvable problem. And then you've got to tidy up to you. We'll feed them. It's awful. We'll take them up to the bath. We'll negotiate them to sleep. We'll come back down the stairs and everything will be spotless. I couldn't think of anything more erotic. And that was, yeah. And that was the arrangement for the entire summer. And then you've done the cute bits and nice bits and it's like, oh, it's you, I like you. And you're not going, oh, God, look, all the fucking trains are still out. Can you,

why is the marble run here? Like, all those domestic irritation. And it's shoveling in a snowstorm. So if you have a cleaner once week, all right, the house is cleaned for 45 minutes after she leaves. And these wonderful ladies, two of them, they work as a team, they would come every day and it was a beautiful summer of just walking down the stairs after that two-hour bedtime

routine and everything was perfect, but Bobby didn't like it. Is he then agreeing to do the cleaning while you do bed-time? He's very tidy. Yeah. Yeah, he's He's very tidy. He does it. He loads the dishwasher. He has certain, like, really good domestic qualities for sure. He said that he's good at loading the dishwasher. He's great. Yeah. When John and Lucy had their show about couples, Steen and I had to fill a dishwasher in a race against Duncan from Blue. He's lovely boyfriend. And I think that's the most traumatic thing's ever happened

to John Richardson. Watching you put a dishwasher together. Yeah, I can imagine. Is it quite chaotic. I think he's weeping. Just weeping. Nothing will be clean. Yeah, I get told off. Do you? Ben's really good. He'll do it. really well. I just shove it in. I'm one of those, like, if you just keep pushing the drawer. I had some guys from the dishwasher company come round, and they were like two young guys who were so enthusiastic. I love that. In any, like, vocation, they were really enthusiastic about their craft, their industry. And they came in, they were like, what's going on? Because I like to solve problems. And if Bobby was away, I got loads of tradespeople to be like, this thing my husband

won't do. So I was not that thing. I was like, oh, the dishwasher is always getting clogged in this error light. And they were like, oh, here's what you need to do. You need to take out your filter almost every day. They're like, you have all these kids. You're running the dishwasher twice a day. You need to rinse this filter, put it back. Blah. They were so enthusiastic. And they were like, you don't have to rinse the plates that much. Like, this is a modern dishwasher. Like, use the, you know, we've gone off piece. But they were so enthusiastic that my way was fine. And it's not about architectural, like symmetrical loading. Oh, yeah. That's what my husband is, it's trying to architectural. It's about rinsing the filter. Okay. Well, lovely. That's really good to know.

If we come away with nothing. This is what you get with Kevin Ryan. You get comedy and you get. And life hacks. Doctoring. The stuff we haven't talked about in your book and we can't talk about all of it. Why would we talk about them about? You're friends.

We don't see each other after. The medical things, the things about inflammation and health and aging and your decisions to have surgery. You're so open about everything. Yeah. Do you feel like your honesty is something you will continue to do? Does it feel just so natural to you that you're like, I'm just going to keep doing this? Sarah? We're the same.

Yeah. Well, I have. My answer is I have such limits now. With living people, I know where all their... Your family. Yeah, I have levels for everyone's what I'm allowed, what they will tolerate.

Like my mom, we're about to do who do you think you are, which you've done. And she's really invested in that. And it's her family, and that's really great. So it's not like she doesn't want to be involved, but I really now have learnt what will hurt her from hurting her. Steen doesn't really want to be in it.

If I really want to do something, I can pitch it to him. Why doesn't he want to be in it? Really shy. He said that before we slept together. Huh? Yeah. Like he knew that I'd gone out with a comic

and we talked about each other and he said just say no, I don't want to be in it. Like just private shy person don't talk about me. And I have, but I've always checked. But why are the private shy people drawn to you? Isn't that interesting?

Well, the private shy people are like standing near you. It's their fault. No, but it's an interesting thing. If I ever say anything, if I ever say my child, I don't say which. There's all deniability. I just say my son. Do you have this? Do you have like a list of people who... That's a good. Well... But I've hurt people as the things I have really upset people. Yeah. It's so weird. Yeah. So I feel like if you didn't want me to say it, why'd you do it? Especially if you treated me badly or you did something mental. Like I'm telling... I do have unofficial boundaries and lists like that. So I suppose I haven't thought it out that way. But, yeah, I rarely talk about Violet anymore because she's entering a stage of adolescent. When she is...

in the audiobook version has a little bonus content. She wrote a chapter herself and narrates it. But she's entering that young woman. And I do think that should be pretty private. And I wish so much that I could say more about her exploits and all these funny things. And I do think she's funny. But she's pretty much off the table at the minute because I do think that's a private time. Bobby really doesn't care. He's more indiscreet than I am. He's gone on podcast and said horrible things about me. Is he? Yeah, like, just for a lot, you know, when you can see it. Oh, I see. So we spoke about kind of fingering my asshole on, which he didn't do. Yeah. So we were stood in the kitchen. I know. I'm sorry. This is not the type of, no, it's a literary podcast. No, no, we tangents is what we're

hit for. You know, Jamie and Sophie, we had at the time their newlyweds podcast, which is now newly parents. Yeah. And I don't know how we got there. But, but, Bobby was invited and he spoke about something about I think I'm great. And I was saying in the kitchen one time, we were talking about rimming generally. I don't know how that came up. And I was like boys, and it's true, boys don't have the same level of hygiene as women do. And I said, yeah, I'm sure like my like bumhole is like perfect and clean and it wouldn't smell like anything, whatever. And he was like, I bet it would. And then it was like a joke, but he was kind of like hugging me. And he put like just his finger on it. He didn't like enter. it and then he smelled his finger to be funny and then he was like oh it doesn't smell great actually but it smelled more like sweat

it didn't smell like who or anything this is not see this not my usual like shit I don't talk like that he just did a weird thing in the moment yeah it was like very very unusual and also can I say and again I don't want to defend men publicly smell Catherine's asshole and you can say it's clean

oh I absolutely know that just from looking at her but when you're trying to be funny, and especially for people who aren't professional years into comedy, the giddiness that comes out of you, I would want to protect you from that, because that's not your actual comedy that you think is funny. It's trying to be trying to hard. Well, they found it very funny, but he basically said that he'd fingered my bum hole and then it stunk, which is not exactly what happened, but I let him say it. It was like, all right, and then it went quite viral. Of course it did. And then Violet was upset by that, because she doesn't care about my indiscretions

apart from if it's sexual and the context. She was like, what happened? And I was like, wasn't that at all. It was long story. I've been out all day. I think that's so true of parents. They are, there's stuff you don't want to think about them. Oh. Yeah. And that you should be protected from. And apparently, according to Erica Komisar, who is a controversial psychoanalysis, but I really like her. Some people believe that she's an instrument of the far right. I don't. But she said that you're not meant to talk to any of your children about sex or about your own suffering about any of that really till they're 25. Well, I wouldn't agree, actually.

Because if I could, I honestly, having been a child and now being a parent, that is what they will not get from me. I will talk to, go to therapy, talk to other people. Yeah. That's what she said. She said, you need every, and I don't know. I think sex education is so important, but it should be taught from members of the tribe. And age appropriate and not about your own sex life, not inappropriate.

Miss Comasar said, everyone needs a bucket to throw up in. And you shouldn't leak on your children. And they might look back as adults and be like, oh, you seemed actually you're really depressed then. And she was like, I was, but I was keeping it from you. Or if you have marital issues and whatever. So my mom just told me everything always. You are a mom probably. And I really have probably leaked on Violet quite a bit.

But I get three more chances. I was going to say, the ending of your book is so beautiful about Violet. And I think your relationship with Violet is beautiful. And I think how brilliant a mother you were to Violet is probably your fault that so many female comedians thought they could do it and still have a good career or enjoy anything. It looked achievable. It was like, yeah, look, you can do this. And you have given her everything and all of you and been such a brilliant parent. And it is a complicated.

And you helped me. Oh, she mentions you in her audiobook version. Oh, did she? Yeah, she talks about some of her memories and some of the memories. sitting on your knee. Steen and I, once in Melbourne, took Violet for an ice cream. It was quite a long walk to go to Messina, which is his very famous shop. So it was like a couple of kilometres.

And when Steen was walking with Violet, and bear in mind, I shouldn't say this, but at this point we're both with other people. I was like, oh my God, I want to have his children. And he had the same thing. Like, Violet was our little practice child. And then we had these boys. Yeah, Violet tricked me as well. Why do you think I kept having kids?

I was like, well, that one's a dud. we'll try again. That's not really like Violet. Let's have another one. And none of them. I love them. And I talk about Violet being my favorite. I'm being a little bit irreverent. I love them all. They're very loved. But yeah, we had a really special relationship. And I think the reason it was good is because I was a single mom and all of us have husbands. And that's where we that's where the mistakes make. And on that's the big takeaway. We could just keep talking to you. But it's such a good book. Congratulations. People who love your podcast. People who love your comedy. People who love you on TV. This is so great because then they can take you with you.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I bet the audio. You did the audio book. audio, right? I bet's amazing. Download it. Yeah. Just by it. It's, you know, that website that delivers things quickly overnight. You give them a couple of shoutouts in your book. Yeah, they get a big shout on your book. I was like, they're going to love you. Also, you work with them. You've done last one laughing.

Yes. You've done a new series of archive. And you had your backstage with Catherine Ryan's show. I've got a great autumn lineup of new entertainment, but it's discounted on there. And I would like it. If you bought it from your local sustainable book shop and you can get some signed copies, But if you want it cheap and fast, you can get it from other places too.

Catherine, thank you so much. Thank you. Good luck with the best of the book stuff. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for listening to The Weirdo's Book Club. My Kids Book, Lydia Marmalade's Christmas Adventure, is available to buy. Now it's a perfect Christmas treat for any child, 9 plus, that likes a little bit of magic, a little bit of a cockney ice sprites,

and a sausage jog called Colin. Right, if you yourself have a cosy treat. You don't have to be nine. And you can find out all about the upcoming books. We're going to be discussing this series on our Instagram. at Sarah and Carriads Weirdo's Book Club. Please join us on Patreon for lots more weird and wonderful stuff. It's the best way to support the podcast.

Thank you so much if you've signed up already. And we've got signed copies of Catherine's book to give away to two of you. We have. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you.