Sara & Cariad's Weirdos Book Club - Flesh by David Szalay with David Szalay

Episode Date: April 16, 2026

This week's book guest is Flesh by David Szalay.Sara and Cariad are joined by the two time nominee and current winner of the Booker Prize himself, David Szalay.In this episode they discuss and class, Vienna, masculinity, prizes, money and Soho.Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you!Flesh by David Szalay. is available here.Follow Sara & Cariad’s Weirdos Book Club on Instagram @saraandcariadsweirdosbookclubProduced by Naomi Parnell Recorded and edited by Aniya Das for Plosive.Artwork by Welcome Studio.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, Amy Gledhill here. And Harriet Kemsley. From the Single Ladies in Your Area podcast. And we've got some exciting news. We've sorted your Valentine's Day plans again, as we're doing a special live recording of the podcast on Valentine's Day. A.k.a. Saturday the 14th of February. Yes, we've got a lovely venue.

It's at the Underbelly Boulevard in Soho, London. And we're on late at 9.15pm. So if you have a terrible date booked in, you can go to that. and then join us after for a debrief. Oh, I mean, I'm excited. We had so much fun at the last Valentine's Day show. Yes, and we both absolutely overshared. Will we do it again?

You'll have to come along and find out. Okay, yes, yes, we will. So that's Saturday, 14th of February at Underbelly Boulevard, and you can get tickets at plosive.com. Sarah Pascoe. And I'm Carrie Adloid. And we're weird about books. We love to read.

We read too much. We talk too much. About the too much that we've read. Which is why we created the weirdos. Book Club. A space for the lonely outsider to feel accepted and appreciated. Each week we're joined by amazing comedian guests and writer guests to discuss some wonderfully and crucially weird books, writing, reading and just generally being a weirdo. You don't even need to have read the books to join in. It will be a really interesting, wide-ranging conversation and maybe you'll want to

read the book afterwards. We will share all the upcoming books we're going to be discussing on our Instagram, Sarah and Carriads, Weirdo's Book Club. Thank you for reading with us. We like Reading with you. This week's book gets his flesh by David Saloy. What's it about? We meet Ischfan at 15 years old and follow him, his loves and his losses into late middle age. What qualifies it for the Weirdo's Book Club?

Well, there's a lot of sex in it. In this episode, we discuss class, Vienna, masculinity, prizes, money and Soho. And joining us this week is David himself. David is the author of five previous novels, including All That Man is, which was shortlisted for the booker in 2016, and. Flesh, which won the Booker Prize in 2025. His work has been translated into more than 20 languages. Hello, David, Seloi.

Welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you. It was a pleasure. You look surprised that we'd started. I know. Or was it surprised that I was giggling my command of. Yeah, it was probably that was probably the laugh that wrong-footed me.

I'm an awkward person and sometimes the laugh carries me through. It's a delightful little chuckle. It sets the tone for a lovely book chat. We were very excited. We feel very excited because we were at the bookers when you won. You were at the bookers as well because you won. You were there. It was lucky you were there.

I whispered across the table when, was it the head judge who said, we read each of these books three times. And I whispered, flesh is one, then flesh is one. If they read it three times, flesh is one. Sarah picked it. Yeah. Okay, but only moments before the announcement. They said they read them three times.

For some reason, that's what clarified it for me. Yeah, yeah. When did you know you'd won? I sort of persuaded myself that I wasn't going to win because I was also shortlisted in 2016 and I had a really awful time on that occasion the evening of the ceremony I was very tense, very really sort of really stressed.

It's a horrible thing to put it. Yeah, yeah. And in 2016 it was horrible. But I was really, I think I was just very determined not to have exactly the same experience again. So I persuaded myself that I wasn't going to win. I mean, I tried to, and I think I actually did quite a good job of that. I also had quite a bad cold.

Oh, you didn't tell from your speech. I felt a bit woozy. You know, I'd had a few lemps. I felt there was a sort of detached feeling. It could be quite cozy cold. Yeah, it was actually a good thing. I felt somewhat detached from that. I almost slightly stoned.

And I didn't drink any alcohol, so I was completely sober, but had this detached woozy feeling. And had persuaded myself that I wasn't going to win and was quite comfortable with that. I was imagining tomorrow in terms of not winning. Partly because it meant I could sleep in, whereas the winner has to be dragged out of about at six to do a live radio appearance,

which with the cold and everything was really the last thing I wanted to do. And it was also when Roddy Doyle, the chairman of the judges, was doing his sort of little spiel before announcing it. Something he said, I can't quite remember what made me think actually maybe. Maybe it was the thing about reading them three times. But it was in that same. I know what you mean. He said something and everyone was like, oh, then it must be flesh.

There was something word. It was something about, yeah, singular maybe. It was just like one of these books is not quite the same as all the others. And thinking about all the books, I thought maybe flesh is the obvious candidate to not be quite like all the others. And that was literally 10 seconds before he actually announced it. So there wasn't time for me to get nervous or anything. It was then just upon me. It was happening.

I interviewed Sarah Hallford and awards radio. It was a documentary about awards on the radio. And Sarah Hall was nominated for her first book for the booker. And the whole process, I'm paraphrasing, obviously, but was really, really hard in terms of the focus that you have and suddenly people writing articles about you. And she was seen as like this underdog. And there were these very well-established people

that she was up against. And actually I think it's a very obviously great to sort of focus an audience towards writers they may not have found. but there's no carefulness around people in that it is a competition and it's highly publicised. And you're dealing with writers who are not famously like competitive people who like go out, they're not sports people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, not publicly anyway.

I mean, if they are, they sort of keep it quiet. And your competition is by, you know, you're alone in a chet, right? Exactly. It's an unnatural environment for a novelist to find themselves in probably. And I think to sort of win a prize like that for your first book, yeah, that must be or even to be sure. listed must be really weird and quite straight. You know, must put a lot of pressure on you. People write articles saying things like, why was this thing overlooked and that thing is

there? You know, and that's someone's life work. You know, I know. I know. I know. I mean, yeah. I mean, obviously someone says that about every book on the list. I mean, you've just got to sort of, I mean, first of all, not read what people are

saying as much as you can. And then if you do come across someone saying something nasty, I don't know, just. So has it been, because the year before, so Orbital 1, and Samantha had given that speech about how she'd been warned. Oh, yeah, yeah. About the year where you won't be able to get any writing done because it's all interviews and talking about your book. Is that what you're in now?

I mean, you mean she made the speech this time? Yes, obviously. Yeah, yeah, the attacked by a swan speech. Yeah. I'm going to have to make that speech. And I'm desperately trying to think of a metaphor as good as attacked by a swan. Oh, yes. It's set the bar quite high.

Yeah, yes, it kind of has been very, I mean, look what I'm doing now. Yeah, exactly. That's what I'm thinking. We are the problem. But I sort of carved out January and February, more or less, as, you know, without any of this sort of thing. And were you writing in that? I did a bit, yeah. I mean, I'm halfway through the next book because, I mean, obviously Flesh was finished about nearly three years ago.

Yeah, yeah. And I'm really glad that I'm halfway through the next book. You're not having to start knowing, oh, my last book. Everyone said it was the best book. And to start with a blank page now would be quite intimidating. And so I'm glad I'm not having to do that. And I can just sort of try and carry on as if nothing has happened. I don't live in this country.

I live in Vienna, which helps with that as well. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's great. And it's really nice. And did you always live there or you moved there on purpose? No, no. Or was it an accident? I mean, I don't know.

Well, it was a bit random, actually. I mean, I lived, obviously, I lived here until I was in my mid-30s. Then I was in Hungary for about 10 or 12 years. And then I moved to Vienna. My wife is German. We lived together in Hungary for a while, but she wanted to leave Hungary. And I have family in Hungary who I need to visit quite frequently. So Vienna was just, it ticked boxes, basically.

But it's very nice. Yeah. It's very beautiful. I've never been there. I've done shows in Vienna. Have you? I've done improv shows. This is an improv scene in Vienna.

Yeah. Really good cake. Absolutely. Yeah. I've got such a hard of Vienna then. Really good cake. And it's so beautiful. And it's one of those places where we stayed with a Viennese girl who'd lived there.

And it was a flat that her parents had lived in. And then it got handed to her. And it's all rent controlled. And it was like the most incredibly insane, beautiful. Like, you know, this huge like 1930s, like wooden doors that just keep opening into like other rooms. And she was like, oh, the room. rent hasn't changed since 1985. And I was like, I can't deal with what you're saying.

Yeah, I don't have one of those deals, unfortunately. I'm just as bitter about that as you're almost. Because it is controlled somehow. And there are people who are still paying 1985 rent, really. And paying, you know, tiny rents on amazing flats. Yeah, it's like four bedrooms. Yeah. A Londoner does not forget seeing four bedrooms with 985 places.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, of course, cool. One of the things, and this is a really broad stroke, But one of the things is that we go with a character from, you know, poverty and having nothing and living very hand to mouth, surviving to extreme wealth. Has that been your journey? Could you sum it up for us very briefly for our listeners? What is the story? What would you say?

Well, it's the story of one individual's life, basically. It starts when he's a teenager and ends when he's in his little late middle age. As you say, it starts in Hungary and he lives not exactly in abject poverty, but in very basic circumstances in Hungary with his mother as a teenager. His father is absent. And then, yeah, he sort of has the first chapter, a sort of tragic, traumatic, violent incident takes place at the end of the first chapter, which changes the course of his life quite dramatically.

He sort of ends up in the army and various other things happen to him. But eventually he moves to London. And yes, he ends up living amongst the wealthy in London and becomes wealthy himself. I mean, I'm not going to say anymore, so I don't want to give it away. But he ends up living with like, like so I said, like the very wealthy, he sort of drops somehow into the upper echelons of London society, which most people, I guess, don't have that contact with London.

People who have drivers and wives who don't do anything but get driven around. And maybe it's a story we're more familiar with from a female perspective, as in like a woman, you know, a very beautiful woman might marry a very rich man. And then suddenly, you know, she's... Magster Riches, Cinderella. Yeah, she's Lord of the Manor. Lady of the Man. And she's acclimatised.

No, she's the Lord. She wants to be called the Lord. She's got money. She decides what she's called. You know what? She's with you with her crop, yes. Whereas what we have in this instance is a man who, working in London, he's a working class man.

And through his love relationship, he becomes the lady of the man. The Lord of the Man. And it really is that kind of sort of tennis courts and horses. Yeah. And also because he's not English as well, there's sort of a strange, the class system absorbs him in a way because they're. They can't pinpoint exactly what we know you're working terms of English. So we know that you didn't go to the right schools.

He's Hungarian. So they can't quite place what he is a lot of the time. No, I mean, it is, as you say, it's sort of, it's a story that is quite familiar. But with some changes that make it maybe slightly unfamiliar, the fact that he's not English, the fact that he's, the wealthy person is the woman in the relationship. And, you know, your joke about him being the lady of the man, in a way, there's something in that because, of course, his wealthy wife, It's always her money and she always retains the financial power.

So he is in that slightly, you know, he is in that position. It's an interesting dynamic, isn't it? Because people who are in control of the money and this isn't gendered, but it often can be, do have the power. Yes. And they can do very kind things and very benevolent things. They can make people feel like anything you want is possible. But there is this line that once it's crossed where really you can't make your own decisions.

Yeah, I mean. Someone has to agree. Absolutely. And the whole, I mean, I think the book is about power. I mean, not just financial power. I mean, but that is obviously a very important form of power in our society. Yes, for me, that's a really important part of the book. So let's take it back to the beginning because power, I found the beginning so confronting,

and that's obviously not an accident, especially when you don't know what a book is about. And it starts with something that is a huge power imbalance, which is an adult, initiating on a sexual relationship with someone who is a child. I mean, and when I say child, you know, it's a teenager at that point. A teenager, 15, but I'm just like legally, I think sometimes it's important to still say, you know, child. And someone's child who lives alone with a, you know, a parent who can't know everything they're doing at all times. And even though we know that this character has feelings and, you know, volition, they make actions, they're not powerless at home, you know, it's still so hard to read. read in detail about something because of the power dynamic.

Absolutely. You can't just think, oh, here's lust and here's animal emotions. But again, it's interesting because we're used to that story being a girl, being vulnerable, prayed on by an older man, and that's not what happens here. So I think that's also confronting that you sort of realize that vulnerability. Disgusting old 40-year-old woman. She's 40.

That's the other thing that is confronting is being the age of a very disgusting old high. So you seem to really. 15-year-old boys. Yeah. The witch with the gingerbed cottage. What? Yeah.

I'm not, I'm not. Yeah. It's a real, I mean, the beginning, like you said, the first chapter is like, because you're a visceral writer. Yeah, you really do feel like you're there and you're dealing with like the same amount of shit that he's dealing with. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, obviously, that was kind of the idea that it would be so shocking and I hope it is.

I mean, you know, and it's, you know, it plunges the reader into this sort of morally, very difficult and physically very difficult. difficult, emotionally very difficult situation. And it is told very, very much from his point of view. So there's great identification of the reader, I suppose, with him specifically in this point of view. And he doesn't really appreciate the sort of wider moral issues, you know, as he probably wouldn't, you know, especially then, you know, in Hungary 30 or 40 years ago, these things weren't talked about in the way that maybe they are here now. So, it wouldn't have been something that was sort of on his radar at all. And also something that as an adult,

because he's not a character who does loads of therapy, loads of work, you know, he's someone who survives and moulds to where he is, as a reader, we're able to intuit the huge effect of things happening to someone at a formative age. And you just deal with that so deftly because it's almost like that's not the point of the book. There are lots of points,

but this is something that happened to someone at 15. and it's undelt with. Yeah. And how does that imprint then on every intimacy you have, on every power dynamic on your love stories? Yeah, I mean, of course, I mean, his relationship with the English woman who he ends up marrying begins with, I mean, always has to some extent, but it certainly begins with a very sort of clear echo, I guess,

of the power dynamic from the beginning. The power takes different forms, of course, by that time. But there is still this, this, power dynamic within the relationship that's quite similar in some ways. Oh, familiar and that's what people do. They repeat patterns. Exactly. Yeah.

Even very unhealthy, toxic ones. But then it's interesting, as you said, because our character doesn't dwell on it. So you as the reader are like making those links and dwelling. Yes. Our character ishtvan. Ishfan. It doesn't seem to make those links. Doesn't care.

It isn't interested in that. So it's an interesting reading experience to be like, why don't you get some therapy, right? But he just keeps making decisions. without look, he never looks back really. It's very difficult for him to, he just keeps accepting. It felt almost fable-like sometimes the character just keeps accepting the things that happened in.

Or Greek tragedy. Yes, yes, no, I mean, that was very much kind of in my mind at times when I was writing it that it does have a sort of tragic form, yeah. And the, yeah, I mean, I think it's partly that we're very familiar as a culture with, you know, the idea

that these experiences cause trauma. which leave marks, which can be dealt with to some extent in various way. You know, all of that, we're so familiar with it to sort of make that the whole point of a book, at this point feels almost boring because it's, you know what I mean? We know that. Everybody already knows that. I think everyone can sort of take that for granted. Everyone, as you describe your own experience reading the book, I'm sure that's very common.

I mean, those patterns, those ways of reading it are something that most readers today would bring to it. and just, as I say, sort of take for granted, and that's, they are there. But to sort of make the book an expiration of those felt like it had been some, that was something that had been done so many times that it was, the focus of the book is slightly elsewhere, I guess. Yeah, it's definitely elsewhere. And you're definitely asking the reader to move beyond that. I can feel that as a reader of like, it's not important to Ishtefan.

It's not important to the writing. But again, you're still dealing with the consequences. The consequences still exist. Yes, no, no, absolutely. Of course. That's what it is. In terms of volume, there are several events in his life that are all loud. Yeah.

And you're moving from one to the other with this sort of huge scope. So I think what you're saying is if it was just the first and that's the highest volume and that everything else is drowned out, what's more interesting than that? You know, him moving on and now we deal with this other thing. There are echoes in the background. We all know it happened. But this is a character who isn't thinking about it every morning when he wakes up. No, not at all.

You've got the vibe that if you'd, if you'd just. stopped him and said, do you think this is about that? He'd been like, what? Or would he? I mean, I don't even, I'm not sure. I mean. Well, I think that's why it's good writing. I wanted to ask you, like, so you as a writer, when you're writing him and you obviously understand his psychology so well, is there ever an element where you are his psychologist and there are details where you go, I know this about him, but he's not, he doesn't know this. I mean, kind of. I mean, you know, again, I mean, he has a number of traumatic experiences, as you say. I mean, it's not like that first chapter is sort of the trauma.

There are other ones. And I guess kind of the most, you know, he returns from, he's in the Iraq war as a Hungarian soldier and someone he knows, a friend of his gets killed. And he returns from that experience with what I think any reader or most readers would immediately identify as some form of PTSD. And at the end of that part of the book, he does in fact go to a therapist and that is talked about.

And, you know, that is kind of a. dressed in that context. But I think long before the encounter with the therapist, the reader has probably come to that conclusion. So yes, I mean, there is that sense that we're, the reader, the reader brings their own interpretation to his life, which may not always be the same interpretation as his.

Let's put it that way. He's a difficult character. Like, he's not, you know, he's not like warm and soft. You don't want to be his friend. I'd be absolutely fucking terrified. But I wondered, like, obviously, there's nothing wrong with, unlikable characters, but I want, like, do you like him? And when you're writing him, were you

sort of like, did you feel on his side? Or is that not how you write? You don't think of it, like, simply. Well, I mean, I do think in those terms in a way, definitely. I mean, look, it's very important for this book, and for me when I was writing it, it was extremely important that at least by the end, the reader feels some kind of real sympathy for this character. Yeah, yeah. I don't think the book would work emotionally or as a work of fiction. If, if if the reader didn't feel that to some extent. So that was extremely important. But on the other hand, I wanted to make it, you know,

I didn't want to make it too easy. You know, I wanted there to be a challenge there. For me as the writer, and I guess therefore for the reader. This is like being a heterosexual woman having to have a relationship with him. You want to love him. It's hard work, okay?

And your friends are saying, what the fuck are you like? There's a lot of red flags. I can get him, listen, hear me out. If you do the backstory, you'd forgive him. He shouldn't have done that. that, but he did at least acknowledge it a bit. Yeah. So, yeah, that is what you're describing.

Yeah, well, that's fascinating. You know what it's like, David. He does several things in the book that really redeem him as a tragic hero then. Yes, and obviously that is important. There are, you know, I don't want to give it away to people who haven't read the book, but there are, of course, particularly in the second half of the book, a number of a couple of things. There are moments in life, you know, no matter what someone's backstory, where they actually make, you know, actions matter.

decisions. It's not accidental. It's not just like, oh, good to be around. You have a choice. And he does make good ones. Yes. Yes, he does. And unselfish ones. Yeah. He's not, he's not a fairy tale villain. No, no. That's also important to say. I mean, you know, even before these kind of more obviously sort of redemptive or sympathetic things happen in the sort of final third of the book, he's not, he's not an obviously bad person. No. There are sort of various things happen in the early parts of the book that for me show him to, you know, he's not sort of subnormal morally or anything like that.

But of course, you know, he's he has, he has faults and plenty of faults and obvious faults. Did the book start with him, the initial idea, did you have him in your mind or was there other things that led you to, did he appear later? Yeah, the book sort of was a number of things that sort of came gathered together. I wanted to write a book that had a Hungarian aspect and an English aspect. I'd been living in Hungary for quite a few years when I started writing it and I wanted to somehow explore my own, just the kind of strange feeling I had of being sort of stretched or divided between two places, London, England and Hungary.

So there was that. And then at some point quite very early on, the idea of having a protagonist who was a Hungarian who emigrated to England at the time, when Hungary joined the EU about 20 years ago, seemed like an obvious way of doing that. And then I also wanted to write a book that was kind of about life as a physical experience and had a lot of emphasis on the physicality of life.

So those were kind of ingredients that were there. And I guess the character of Ishtfan just sort of was assembled out of those. And the first chapter of the book, I mean, I abandoned a novel. I think I mentioned on the booker evening. I abandoned a novel. You gave lots of writers' hope.

Good, good. I mean, good. That's nice to hear. I abandoned a novel before starting this one that I've been working on for some years. And the first chapter of this book originated as something that was kind of rescued from the wreckage of the abandoned book. Oh, right. Okay. I can't really remember all the details. But it was this in a different form. And so it was sort of worked up out of that. And yeah, so that was also there. So when you abandoned the book, what was that period like before this began? have a moment of like what the fuck have I done like this is or did Svan start appearing quite

quickly once you're uh no i mean obviously the abandoning of the book was something which was sort of was going on for months while i was struggling to make this yeah book work the abandoned one and then the decision to actually i'm just going to abandon this and just stop and put it aside totally and you know the first the first thing was relief yeah you know just having struggled with it for months with the kind of stronger and stronger feeling that this just isn't going to work. It was a huge relief just to put it aside and say, I'm going to do something totally different.

But then there was a lot of pressure that something totally different. Obviously, you can't abandon two books. You can sort of abandon one book. When you're aged again. To abandon one twice. Did you have to talk to people about abandoning it? Editors.

No. Actually, I hadn't even got to the stage of sort of showing it to anybody because I just, it didn't feel So it didn't seem to be any point in showing it to anybody. I mean, I like to get things to a point where I feel that I can't, you know, that they're already quite good. And before I said, so this abandoned,

and that was part of, that was one of the signs that it wasn't very good, that I hadn't wanted to show it to anyone. I still felt that it needed to be sort of pulled into shape or made presentable. Yeah. So there was, there was a period probably of a few, I don't know, weeks, months. I'm not even sure anymore where I was sort of not quite sure what to, how to protect this forward. And then so I started with these simple ingredients,

you know, like something about Hungary and England, something about the physicality. In terms of like people talking about your book and, you know, this whole sort of conversation about like reading men and modern men, was that something that was in your mind or is that it seems to be so much more about, you know, where the man is from

rather than like, oh, let's look at a man in this very specific way. I mean, I didn't want to, no, I mean, for me, the book wasn't really, I didn't want to write a book that was primarily about masculinity, contemporary masculinity or anything like it. I mean, it is to some extent. Yeah. I mean, sure. But that wasn't the main thing. And I certainly didn't want to write a book that was sort of part of a wider conversation about masculinity or anything. I felt that, yeah, I mean, I think one of the great things about what a novel, any novel can do is take a look at things in a way that's more nuanced.

more complex than those kind of conversation, sort of social conversations that take place. And I think that successful novels aren't also trying to be an essay. No, exactly. They do exist those things. And obviously sometimes they're done great and they are really important and really readable. But that's a layer that people add on afterwards.

I think actually, as you're speaking, I'm thinking about what you said earlier about how the physical experiences of the body, eating sex, it's the physical aspect actually that makes us excited about the male aspect of it, if that makes sense. Because in describing a man's physical pleasures in the world, we're like, wow, what an insight into the male mind.

We're learning. But also it's interesting, is that what it's like to be a man? But also it's interesting that everyone's like, oh, about masculinity. But it's a very narrow view of masculinity is only someone who's a soldier. They've all been to war. They've all been single minds. It's like me. It's funny that we then go, oh, this is a book about masculinity.

when you go, well, it's a book about a man who happens to display traditional masculine traits. And also I think maybe in literature, we don't meet many of those men. No, that's true, yes. Literature is often filled with. They're two-dimensional, but they're not this tragic hero. We don't give them the time. Yeah, or maybe not the books that we normally read. Or they're just the baddie, you know.

Yeah. In another novel, he's just a doorman who's a fuck. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Exactly. I mean, that was very, that was one of the things that interested me about writing this book, definitely. that this, he was not a character who you normally encounter in a novel. I mean, certainly as you say, not as the main protagonist.

Yeah, he would be the scene where he goes to Carl and Helen's house. And, you know, they're asking him these sort of small talk questions about trying to find out who he is. And I think they have a curry. That's not Carl, Helen. That's Mervin and Mervyn's wife. Yeah. So he saved a man's life. He's suddenly such a fish out of water experience.

And that's his point where you go, this isn't the character we're normally spending time with. Yeah. Just like these people who are, like their focus on him is unusual. Yeah. Who are you? Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

No, no, exactly. That's kind of when he first gets put into a context where he's out of place, I guess you could say. And around wealthy, powerful people who can and do change his life. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, exactly. Until then he's been living in this sort of environments that you'd expect someone like that to live in.

He's in the big house share and he's with all these other men. And he's working in the army or, you know, whatever, doing some menial job in Hungary or, you know, exactly, exactly. And suddenly he's with these very middle class English people in their nice flat. Yeah, lovely wine. Yeah, with wine and curry and stuff. So you've lived in, you were living in Hungary for a long time and you were now living in Vienna. Do you feel that living abroad, because I really enjoyed the, like, rich London stuff.

Soho. Yeah, like someone who grew up in London. Yeah, I wondered, like, do you feel that's giving you a. perspective on this country? Or do you think it's changed that you come back and you are visiting it with fresh eyes? I mean, sure, yeah. I mean, I've spent so long away now that that's definitely the case. And I mean, it was part of the sort of pleasure for me of writing the book, but also it had an almost sort of therapeutic aspect for me to write about London through the eyes of a total, someone for whom it is, you know, who is a total outsider, was a way of kind of writing about

it, expressing in a way of just, you know, on a personal level, it's not really important for the book. My own feelings of being a slight outsider in London now. I mean, I don't feel like a Londoner anymore. I've lived away from London for like 15 years by now. But it's a very strange thing, isn't it? When you are familiar with the city, I have friends and family that have moved away and lived away. And sometimes the way they talk about it often,

you're like, oh, it's not like that anymore. And it's jarring and you can see they're quite jarred. It's like, well, what do you mean? It's not Boris Spikes. Like, there's those little things. You're like, no, no one does that anymore. Exactly. Exactly. And so they're living with a picture that doesn't exist,

but did literally exist three years ago or something like that. I know, I know. I know. I mean, obviously, the book takes place over many years. Yeah. So it's not, I mean, it's not really set in contemporary London. The sort of London bits of the book are from 10, 15, 20 years ago now, which is lucky for me because that's when I knew the city. So hopefully I don't make sort of mistakes like those.

But yeah, yeah. I mean, for me, London is definitely the central location of this novel. Yeah. It's a place that changes so quickly. And I remember how bored I used to be as a child. my dad lives in Australia. But he grew up in Dagenham, who now lives in Australia.

How boring it was. There used to be a this there. And they used to be a that there. And that used to be a that. And oh my God, they took that down. And then now I am that guy. I live in.

I used to do a gig there. Oh God, why they dug that up? It's all pretamages. It's all pretamages. Especially in Soho, where there's bits where it just like, it just keeps eating itself. Like it just keeps living and living.

And there are organizations trying to stop it and trying to preserve something because Soho, when it's obliterated completely, people will be like, oh, you know, it's gone. But it's already gone. It's already gone from what we grew up. But, you know, every 10 years, they do really try and go, okay, no more.

Let's leave Raymond, leave something. Just leave something. What does your writing process look like? I was wondering, because, like, you're writing. I mean, I know people say it's so sparse and it's so tense. Oh, do you ever overwrite and then edit? Yeah, do you edit it? Or also, are you tense writing?

This is loads of questions answer to them. I mean, I didn't. There was a little bit of sort of trimming, paring back with this book, but basically no. I mean, it was written in the way it is, the way it stands. And I think, again, it sort of grew out of the first chapter. I mean, the first chapter, this doesn't always happen, but the first chapter was the first bit that I wrote.

And there was something so specific going on there in terms of trying to capture the experience of this adolescent boy and trying to treat what is a very shocking and disturbing situation in this very sort of dry, factual way because I thought that would make it even more shocking and emotionally impactful. And that sort of set the template for how I would sort of present things, how I would describe things, which then carried through to the rest of the book. To some extent, I mean, I think that later in the book,

there are more passages. There are some passages of reflection and, you know, internal, you know, people's thoughts, they strand's thoughts, and the kind of slight thickening of the texture, perhaps. But no, I mean, that sort of way of writing was something that I established when I started with the first chapter. And obviously, I enjoyed writing like that. I felt it was kind of a good way of writing about things.

It sort of removed a lot of the, a lot of things that I find, you know, a bit boring or tiresome to write. I didn't have to. I could just not do them. It feels like that reading it. I hadn't read it when you won the bookers and then I read it afterwards and I came to it a little bit like

oh it won so it's going to be a big one and then I was like oh god like yeah you rip through it because it's so sparse and so tense and like you said the tone is like that so consistently that you feel I don't know it feels very current and present with you so it's not a book that's like oh it won a big price

so settle in for 500 pages of description I'm very glad that you say I mean that obviously because that's Yeah, yeah. The last thing I'd want to be is like a book that is sort of read because it should be read. Yeah, you know what I mean? That's awful. Yeah, you want it to be a book that people will enjoy wording, you recommend and want to talk to their friends about. And that sense of being about the contemporary world of being like, that's really important to me too. I mean, as a reader, that's what I enjoy reading most. But are you stressed writing it? Because it feels like it doesn't give up.

Like it's such a like... It's hard when bad things keep happening to a character. Yeah, like, did you ever have to, like, have a break and be like, oh, God, I'm just going to give him a nice trip to the gym market. She has a party. I mean, I wrote it over quite a long period of time. It wasn't like I sort of, I mean, it sort of reads very, you can read it quickly.

But in fact, it was written over a couple of years, you know, so, yeah, I mean, I guess I think I would probably sort of write one chapter. I mean, the chapters are quite self-contained, and they were written very much like that. So I'd write one and then maybe start on the next one a few weeks. weeks or a couple of months later. It's a nice being. I was actually living in Hungary when I wrote it.

I finished it before I moved to Vienna. I mean, it's very much the novel that grows out of my years in Hungary, obviously. Whereabouts in Hungary were you living? I was living, first of all, in a town called Peach in Southern Hungary, which is the town in which he lives with his mom, is sort of modelled on it, although it's not named. And then I was also living in Budapest for some years. What was the Hungarian reaction to it? I was going to ask that Hungarian men. It's being published in Hungary in Hungarian in a month or so.

Oh, wow. That's exciting. But obviously a lot of Hungarians have already read it in English. And in fact, before it was even published in English, I showed it to some Hungarian friends of mine. Because I didn't, you know, I wanted it to, I was very curious. What would a Hungarian reader make of it? You know, would they read it and think this is ridiculous? You know, or would they read it and not think this?

This is ridiculous. What did they... They said it was fine. It was like it's completely okay. No one sat you down. It was like, mate, no. Don't do it. So, yeah, that's nice.

That's really exciting. It's being published in Hungarian. And do you think you will go there and speak about it? I will. I will. I will. And my father's sisters who are very religious ladies in their 70s will read it. I'll have to talk to them about it.

They're really looking forward to it. Oh, no. Have you given them a warning? No, I don't dare. I mean, but people surprise you actually. Yeah, true. I wouldn't be that surprised if they liked it. Yeah, yeah.

Probably some comment about, you know, some little comment. But they'll probably, hopefully, like it. I hope they're quotes on the front of the Hungarian company. And it's being adapted for film. It's been option. It's been option by house productions who made conclave and other films. And how do you feel about that? Well, it's, you know, it's exciting.

Would you write the screenplay? I would be, I mean, I think it, obviously the fact that it's been option doesn't really mean anything in itself. But I think there is a good chance of it getting made, actually. I'd say at this point at least 50-50. We're already talking about the script and the script is being, what's happening is that the director and his usual writing partner are going to write a first draft and then I'm going to write a second draft based on their draft. Yeah. Wow. And then we'll see, we'll take it from there.

So when you're listening for Istavan, I know unusual to cast a woman, but like that's like it could give it a go or Marvin. Do you want to be Murphy? No, this is just a smash cut to you being the old hag at the beginning. Of a terrible Hungarian accent. Istoran. Why are you to my dad?

I'll look after him. Don't worry. The terrible Hungarian accent. I never would be like, I didn't expect it to be this broad comedy. The first five minutes are really funny. And then it gets very serious. But I'm glad they put that in there. Yeah.

People don't see the funny side of hebo-phelia anymore. You know, this isn't your first novel, as you said. Like, have you found a response from what's happened this year of, like, people going back to old work? Are you finding more people talking to you about your books or recognising you? Have you had that sort of strange? Yeah, a little bit. I mean, the odd thing, yeah. I mean...

Have you graduated from a successful novelist to famous novelists? What counts as famous? I don't know. Doing this. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I do occasionally now people come up to me in streets, hotel breakfast rooms, airports.

A guy came up to me in a queue at Washington Airport and asked me if I'd written flesh and I admitted that I had. And he then said, I want to show you something really funny. He was American by. And he took out his passport and opened it on the kind of information page. And I sort of stared at it for a moment. And then I noticed that his name was also David.

Yeah. And that was the thing. What? Just just David. His name's also David. Not even Saloy. There are so few Davids in the world, right? I mean...

That is American confidence. You know what this guy's going to love? We've got the same first name. I'm going to harass him in there. It's really hoping. You would be like, oh, I'm Hungarian too. I love it. It's going to say the same as the character maybe or something.

Yeah. I called Ishth. But my surname's sly. Like, wow. Wow, no, just David. No, we both just have the most common male name in the English speaking world. But I had the shame his passport

in case you didn't believe him that his name was David. How did you get out of that one? How did you, yeah. Well, I just arrived on a long haul flight. I wasn't in a very good mood. I can't, I can't remember. I probably tried to do a fake law.

I don't know. I can't know. You know what's so bold? I was polite. Having red flesh, I wouldn't be marching up to you going, my name's David. Do you know what I mean? Like, you know a writer's,

style, like it's not... I wouldn't go up to anyone. But it's like, well, look, because Sarah's a common name. I wouldn't go up to Sarah Jessica Paskett, judge of last year's bookers. Yeah, we're still a fan of yours. Yeah, we couldn't get near her.

I wouldn't go, guess what? Mate, look at this. Also, she is Sarah with an age, so that would be controversial. I correctly spelt Sarah. Yeah, because you're not Sarah. Yeah, okay. But that's not the reason I wouldn't say it to her.

I think she'd look at your passport and go, you don't have an age. Yeah, that's a different name. Yeah. But do you know what I mean? I still think it's bold to be like, hey, Flesh guy, guess what? It just seems bad. Anyway, I think that does mean that you are...

Does that count as famous? I think so. Famous for novelists, I'd say. Yes. Not famous for rock stars. No. But in the world of novelists, the fact that people who maybe haven't even read you,

they just know that you're the author who wrote the famous book or the book or winning book. I guess then the question is about enjoyment of writing. It feels like you really enjoy it. Yeah, I do. Yeah. So you have a great life. I feel very lucky, yeah.

Yeah. That's good. Some people really suffer. They're like, I'm living my dream. It's so bad. You can tell you're such a right. It's like that's how you communicate with the world. Like that's, yeah, you enjoy it.

It's not right. No, I do enjoy it. I feel very lucky that I'm able to live from doing it effectively. Yeah. You know, it did. There are moments of, you know, not. I mean, the moment after abandoning that book. Yeah.

And before getting this book going was, you know, I was a bit bleak. I was quite depressed. It was a bit of a low period. But basically, no. I feel very lucky. Do you do long walks or swimming or anything like that? Long walks, yeah. Long walks, absolutely.

I've got a dog. I was going to say, I bet you've got a dog in Vienna and you've got. A spaniel. Oh, yeah. What's it, what's still called? Prunella. That's a great name. Prunella the Viennese Spanish.

What kind of colour we're talking? Dark brown, an unusual colour for a cocker spaniel. Oh, wow. In Vienna, she's a bit cheeky. Sorry? Like, because Vienna's like a big city. And Spaniel's like, I always imagine them. They are cheeky.

Yeah, cheeky. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, not particularly. No. I don't think you can. No. They're just going to smell and go where they want.

Yeah, yeah. They're very willful or very stupid. They're really good at finding dead bodies. Are they used for that? I think that's what the police use, don't they? Oh, you would know. Springers. I don't know.

Maybe not the caucus. They use them for drugs, like at airports, smelling suitcases. Because of their sense of smell. It's great. You might find drugs on a dead body. And that's David's next word. That's my dream. That's my dream.

You know, it's always like a dog walker. Oh, you love it. That's my absolute nightmare. That's going to be like, that's all I wanted for my life. Just to one day be the center of the story. Yeah, I was there in the river. The dog found me. Well, David, this is all good plots for the next book.

It is. It's great. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. It was so interesting. And the book is so amazing. I'm so glad that. And we don't even like men.

So we loved it. Yeah, brilliant. Thank you. And it's a really heartbreaking. We actually haven't talked about how sad. It's a heartbreaking story. It's really sad, but it's also like, oh, I don't know. It's a humanising and apathetic.

It is a great novel. Thank you for listening to The Weirdo's Book Club. My Kids' Book About Grief is available in paperback now. It's called Where Did She Go? And I'm writing a new book, so just by two of Carriads. You can find out all about the upcoming books we're going to be discussing or the guests we've got coming along, what we're up to. Head to Instagram at Sarah and Carriads Weirdo's Book Club.

And please join us on Patreon. It's an amazing way to support the podcast and we've put some extra content on there too. Thank you for reading with us. We like Readie. with you.