Sara & Cariad's Weirdos Book Club - Freshwater by Akwaeke Emezi with Sophie Duker

Episode Date: September 21, 2023

This week's book guest is Freshwater by Akwaeke Emezi.Sara and Cariad are joined by comedian, writer and high priestess of a sexy cult - Sophie Duker - to discuss spirits, Jesus, death of the author, Dua Lipa and more! Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you!Trigger warning: This book contains reference to suicide, self harm, sexual abuse and rape. Freshwater by Akwaeke Emezi is available to buy here or on Apple Books here.Sara’s debut novel Weirdo is published by Faber & Faber and is available to buy here.Cariad’s book You Are Not Alone is published by Bloomsbury and is available to buy here.Follow Sara & Cariad’s Weirdos Book Club on Instagram @saraandcariadsweirdosbookclub and Twitter @weirdosbookclub Recorded and edited by Naomi Parnell for Plosive.Artwork by Welcome Studio.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Sarah Pasco. Hello, I'm Carriad Lloyd. And we're weird about books. We love to read. We read too much. We talk too much. About the too much that we've read. Which is why we've created the Weirdo's Book Club.

Join us. A space for the lonely outsider to feel accepted and appreciated. A place for the person who'd love to be in a real book club, but it doesn't like wine or nibbles. Or being around other people. Is that you? Join us. Check out our Instagram at Sarah and Carriads Weirdo's Book Club for the upcoming books we're going to be discussing. You can read along and share your opinions.

Or just skulk around in your raincoat like the weirdo you are. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you. This week's book guest is Freshwater by Aquakey Amaze. It follows the story of Adder, born in Nigeria, who goes on to study in America, and their realisation that they have spirits living in their subconscious and her simultaneous love-hate relationship with her internal life. Why isn't it in the weirdos book club?

Freshwater is a poetic and lyrical tale. about accepting all the different versions of ourselves. And it's like nothing else you've ever read. Trigger warning, this book contains reference to suicide, self-harm, sexual abuse and rape. This week we are joined by the incredible comedian and writer Sophie Duker. She's a star of Taskmaster, Live at the Apollo, 8 out of 10 cats, and a high priestess of a sexy cult. We're very excited she's agreed to become a weirdo with us.

Hey! Thank you so much for coming to talk about this book. I'm so excited to talk about it. Me too. you'll be the first people that I've spoken to about it. I would be really wary of bringing this book up. This would be one of the books where I would have a fear about one of those men come and over going, what you're reading.

Oh, God. Okay, where do I start? Spirit means flesh. Okay, sit down. Yeah. You need to open your mind right now. In we, as you heard earlier in the podcast, we have to sum up briefly what the book is about. Wow.

And it was very difficult to write because I feel like even though. Romcom. Yeah. A really fun rump. Even though it's not a heavy tome, it packs a lot. It's a lot of stuff is happening in this book. And we normally start by saying, so it's about, but yeah, does everyone want to do it? If I had to, if I had to.

Go for it. You do. I would talk about, I say it's a book about how an adult process is childhood trauma. Oh, interesting. Which is the story? But even that's not. Oh, no, it's not enough, is it? It's not enough.

It's really hard to like, if you have. It's one of those books. Most books we talk about, I feel like, oh, if you haven't read it, it, it doesn't matter. But this is like, there's a lot happening here. And it's utterly original. Yes. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, I've never read anything like it. So it's not like you can go, oh, do you like Mae Finching? Yeah, it's so, it's about, this is interesting.

It is about a person who is gendered as a girl in interviews. Aquakey has said she is not, but everyone else genders her as a girl. So I think we can start the story. story by saying she is born in Nigeria and lives there for a bit and then travels to America to study and her experiences, although very early on she realizes or feels or hears in her head that she is born of a spirit and she was an answer to her father's prayer that a God answered. But the character of Ada isn't the person telling us this. No.

So it's not a first person narrative. The majority of the story is being told by the incarnations. The spirits that live inside her. Yeah. Yeah. They sort of... Or who are her or inhabit her body. Yeah.

And she references Abanjay, which is an Igbo word, that means a spirit child who is born repeatedly to the same parents, taunting and torturing them with many reincarnations. Most Abanjis die as children, but Ada survives into adulthood is one of the things I read off. Yeah, and it's supposed to be that if they die, they come back to repunish the parents. So it's a really cyclical.

So I guess it comes from maybe having children, a child die, and then you might have another child that dies, and someone would say, this is an Abangie spirit. This is like you're being tortured for a reason. And this character of Ada, what we hear, is the spirits inside her saying she has survived. I feel like there are some spirits that are sort of like just around. Yes.

And they recognise her and they see. speak to her, but there are like other spirits that sort of embed themselves within her. Yeah. And like new spirits that are born of her. Yeah. Yeah. So we start with what's called we who are kind of twins, who have sort of left their brother, sisters and the other side.

Yes. Whereas the spirits are supposed to reside. And they should have left, they say they should have left Adda before the birth, but they stayed. They've kind of crossed over. Yeah. They've crossed over. And now they're here within her.

And everyone else thinks she. is, oh, a normal girl, but they know inside. So she names them the we at some point in the child, smoke and shadow. Yes. But the explanation, a few pages into the book about why Adder has these things going on, is that normally what happens is you have this sort of, you have the spiritual world and the flesh world, and they're the gates in between, so you're born and you sort of forget the spiritual world. Yeah.

And you live as a human, whereas for poor Adder, the gates weren't closed for whatever, reason or purpose. And the spirits are angry about this because they feel like she should come back to them. So she has a constant desire to sort of harm herself to try and get back via death to the spirits who are torturing her internally. Yeah. Yeah. In different moods and in different situations, different versions of that are expressed. Yes. We are told that she is both mad and sane at different points. We are told that there is anger and a wish to return. And then at other points we're told, if we wanted her to return, we'd have her back.

There's nothing you can do. She has to stay alive. And coming back to the trauma, we start with these we, and then there are traumatic events and other spirits arrive. So Asiogara turns up after particularly sort of traumatic incident. And another spirit called St. Vincent comes in later, who seemed to represent sort of part of her. parts of their personality almost, but also they're also, that's too simplified a way of describing

because they're actually complete characters in themselves that live within Adda. But you can sort of, if you were applying really basic psychology, you could be like, oh, Asigara is this really controlling sexual force? And that's kind of become her personality. But Asagara is such a good character that that doesn't seem like a fair sentence to put on her. I was thinking about Asa Gar and I was like, is Asaara like a womanly presence? Yeah, yeah. Because I, yeah, I feel like the character that exists in Adda that I find really interesting is St. Vincent because St. Vincent seems to be quite new.

Yeah, yeah. Like quite like a newness and something that belongs to, and is like sort of like docile and like serves Adder. But he's also described as masculine. Yes. As very masculine and sort of reminds Adder of like men that they have encountered. Like there's one bit when Adda says that they smell like Ewan, who's a man that's very masculine. very important to her. And it feels like St. Vincent is sort of constructed, like, the need or like the ability

to like hear St Vincent is sort of like develops quite slowly and in the less sort of abrasive way. Yes. Because Asa Gara sort of comes in as like, I'm taking over. Yes, like a fireball, definitely. So the point with Ashigara and St Vincent, so there's a book from the 70s, which is based on what used to be called multiple personality disorder and now is called disassociative identity disorder, although it's still sort of contested. And it's called Sybil, by Flora Rita Schreiber.

And they've made two films of it, but in the book, it's the psychologist interviewing their personalities, if you like, which is what they're called at the time. Yeah. So like in this book, you hear how Ishigara interprets a situation. Yeah. So while you're really aware of Adda and what Adda is going through, it is this other whole person's... Yeah, take on it.

Yeah. That's what I mean. They're fully fleshed characters. It's not like, oh, this is her feminine side. Like that is so reductive as it. It's like they are complete. Because Asa Gara doubt herself as well when she's doing things, but then decides, no, this is what I don't need. We need to fuck this person. We need to have this experience.

She's got this sort of revenger's justice. Yeah. It's like we were hurt. Yes. So other people's hurt doesn't matter. And her logic is sometimes horrible in that to protect. Ada, the things that she decides to do, I think as a reader, you feel like that doesn't feel like what Ada needs. That doesn't feel protective.

Later on, there are hints really beautifully placed that it hurts a Shigara as well. Yes, yes. Oh my God. I mean, if you followed us up to this point, congratulations. It's one of those books that when someone says, oh, what's about? It's taken us this long to explain it, but I don't want that to put anybody off or be like, oh, it sounds a lot, because it doesn't feel like a lot. This is all introduced for. very gradually. And I think like most books, which are not offering a kind of traditional linear voice or person-centered narrative, it takes a while to get into. I'd read one book by them before. And I think when it started off, I was like, okay, this is like the tale of like

the mother and the father and their relationship sort of disintegrating the kids. And I have a sort of brace yourself thing when I'm like, am I going to have to remember all these people's names? So I was just like, okay, this relates to this. And I think it is actually very easy. Like, I think It's a really seductive way of writing. And I think like some of the images that are conjured up, even though something quite horrific happens really early on in Adda's childhood, are sort of beautiful. Really beautiful.

And like being pulled into that world, which is so like bright colours and like childlike and like sort of familiar, feels really instinctive. Yeah. And then it's almost a surprise when you're like, okay, we're growing up. We're in America. We're meeting all these people.

We're having like sexual liaisons. We're like smoking. We're drinking. So even though that's a kind of more I guess relatable environment for most of the people reading the book I think you do get sort of lulled into just the sort of room of the novel

and then you can sort of be like birthed out like add it into the world just sort of like okay I've got the basics laid like a python's egg I think at the beginning I was doing that thing of like trying to pin it down so I was like but hang on who is this person and where are we

and it's like one of those books you have to like just go with the flow of the river. Like once you just accept, okay, I don't actually need to know, like, exactly what's happening. But I have a very clear sense, like you said, of the color of where she was growing up and the siblings and the relationship. And even though it's we and their twins describing it, who live inside her, like, once you just kind of go, well, accept that. Sure. Sure. It's really, I loved it. Yeah. I loved it. It's just like, yeah, it took my brain a little while to go, stop trying to make this make sense. Well, this is what happens, what

the equality in psychology like being Eurocentric issue. You read something that's slightly other or unknown

and you try to translate it back to what you understand so that would be like me again. It's a book about multiple personality because that's

the area of information you're familiar with so you're trying to impose rather than letting the book change you telling you

what it wants to. A Quakee said a really good quote which I'd like to say because it really helped me after I read the book. There's a very deliberate choice to narrate the story from a different centre. There's a mainstream centre that would have let Adda narrate more of the book that would

have framed things in language that people are comfortable with. My lens is different and it, the book, has a non-human centre. I really feel that as well. Like when you start the book, you're like, okay, I'm reading this traditional, you expect to be reading a traditional narrative. Yes, yeah. But I feel like Aque doesn't even want to use a sort of traditional, languages and structures to describe things because it's like, okay, this is the main character's a little sister, but then they're described as like the amen to a prayer. And then later in the book they're just described as the amen, like the amen comes in. And then it's like we're using

new language to talk about everybody. Jesus has a cameo. More than a cameo. Yes, Ishwa. Ishwa. I loved Ishra. I really, yeah, I just thought, I love that this book just has a moment where Jesus slash Ishwar, she calls him, turns up, has a conversation with all. all the spirits in her marble room, which we take it, is Adda's mind. And he is criticised and they kind of take the piss out of him, but he's not, he's not like flustered. But I just thought it was such an interesting, like, moment that we got taken, a way to kind of talk about Christianity and what it means

versus these other much more, like, Igbo-traditional gods. There's this wonderful parallel, because Jesus, if you believe in the literal story of Jesus, is God made flesh, which is the same as, Adder and it was so shit the first time round why would he come back I know I love that

I love that people waiting for him to come back is like do you not remember what happened yeah and I like I guess the petulance of him like hearing everyone's prayers I thought he thought

I thought the character was really funny as I wouldn't read a bit it said she wanted to look away we wanted to look away this is the we talking but Ishra held her face tight his breath felt like a thousand tiny cuts against our skin.

We're gods, he reminded her. I don't have to be fair. When he pressed his mouth to her forehead, our bones boiled underneath. Ooh. I just love that he, she made him, there's this whole thing the whole way through

that gods shouldn't behave in an irrational way, that gods and spirits, like why, like don't expect them to be human, don't expect them to behave normally or, you know, in vertic omers normally.

Well, there's that really affecting description early on about humans doing evil things, but it's God's coming into flesh and enjoying what they do. And that's that sort of justification of, because you do think there's a spectrum of human behaviour and that certain evils are outside it. And so using the spiritual world as an explanation, I mean, every culture has a version of that, because it has to be an aberration. Yeah, they've been accused a bit of blasphemy.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, have you been accused of them so, for you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think this is pretty. Yeah. The existence of the.

Banji and like these other gods alongside Christianity and like Christianity in no way being given this like sacred altar like Adda really clings to yeah especially like in her teens and like young life to Christianity and to her virginity and is really like sort of I think a cigar talks about like oh she's in love with Ishwa I'll let her have that but they're all sort of given equal footing and it reminds me of I don't know if you've read this book or watch the series of like any like Neil Gaiman's like a Nancy boys or like American gods and having these like concepts be like independent, violent, selfish beings all by themselves. I think like growing up like with West African heritage and parents and living in Ghana,

this sort of everyone's Christian. Like it's a respectable thing to be Christian. Like Christian's been imported. People grow up, believe in Christianity. But there still exist sacred beliefs. Like I know, I knew when I was younger that people would be Christian, but like if you went for a war, walk in the forest, there were bits that you couldn't walk through because they were sacred and like a ju-joo man was there and people were still afraid of witches and like other, and like sometimes those things just lie completely parallel. Yeah. With neither side really interrogating them. Sorry to go back to the interview, but it was really interesting because there was another quote from them saying that when they were living in America and when they were diagnosing kind of a Western

psychological way, it was, it didn't help them want to live. and, you know, again, coming back, maybe what you're saying of, like, it's either you're sane or you're crazy. And then when they were looking at Igbo deities, it was like, that was the first time that they were like, oh, now I don't feel crazy. I feel alive and human and connected,

rather than trying to place, like, yeah, a Western narrative on things, or this is what's wrong with you and you can be cured. And I think they do that in this book so well of containing all of these worlds. Like you said, that Neil Gaiman thing of, like, everything is there. It's all true at once.

At once, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's an interesting question I want to ask you both. This book could be read as crypto autobiography. Does it matter when the author has experiences that are similar to a character? I wonder if sometimes we're too tempted to go, oh, they also had this happen or, and should we just ignore that?

I think in a way, and this is going to sound real wanky. Great. You went to Oxford. I haven't even mentioned. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's right in English at Oxford. Oh, I'm fully aware. She's talking to two Sussex

English graduates so that we definitely... Wow. We were not given the same amount of clear. Okay. Two hours of contact time a week. I'll speak very slowly. So this is a book. I'm making book shapes in my hands.

Yeah, but what about the people? What are the people one? What does the worker need? Sorry, that's just what we were told. I think all books are kind of autobiography. Lovely sentence. That doesn't necessarily mean anything. But I think it's...

I read the acknowledgements at the back of the book, and they were talking about speaking to their sister about writing this book and how they were terrified of what they'd have to do. Maybe I'll read it out. Yes, yes, it was good. They said, Good acknowledgments. Yeah.

My little twin sister, for that time when I was freaking out about what I needed to believe in order to write this book, and you told me to treat it like I was a method actor to surrender, so I went in and never came back out, which was perfect. Wow. And I think there are elements of the book, which are obviously, drawn from their experience, like the textures and sounds of things and the references and the language. And I think that they are definitely many people at once. So that experience of being, even though I don't think Adder is them. I think there are times when Adder is spoken about

and there's such an acknowledgement that Adder is weak or Adder needs support and Adder is bullied by the gods that are them and live within them, that I think that without claiming to know what Aqueque feels about it, I feel like Aqueca very much feels like Ata is a fictionalised or much earlier version of themselves and that they can like translate that experience. But I think that Aquake's actual experience of their personhood, multiple peoplehood, is much more develop. I really try with books to practice from Sussex death of the author, you know, it's just the text. But with this one, I just did not want to stop reading articles they'd written. Some of us have copy and paste in a large... We should shout out to Arefa Akbar, who did this

interview and we is basically here at the podcast right now. Can I read you what a Quake I said? Just because it is interesting. They said in answer to a similar question, is this based on your personal experience. It's an autobiographical novel, a breath away from being a memoir. Oh, what a lovely way of phrasing it. Gorgeous. There are chapters in there that are my journal entries

which I copied and pasted. There are a couple of things about writing it this way. First, the things that people think are fictionalised are not fictionalised. Second, I wanted to make clear it was autobiography. Otherwise, it would be considered to be very fantastical. I wanted readers to be sure that it was not magical realism or speculative fiction.

It's what has actually happened. I'm using fiction as a filter for it. Wow. That's so good, isn't it? Because I did think, oh, it's kind of a bit magical. It is kind of fantasy. And I think what's really chilling kind of hits you, doesn't it? Of like, don't hide the trauma that she's actually talking about, the sexual abuse, the rape, the self-harm, the horrible things that this person has experienced behind, oh, it's spirits and it's a little bit of magic, isn't it?

Like, don't, I guess, exoticise it. Or minimise it. Yeah. And be like, I'm using fiction. to tell you this story. There was two things that felt really truthful to me. Within, I guess, the power of talking about trauma in this way, one of them, so I've got a very close person in my life who self-harmes.

And when I was younger and they tried to explain it to me, in terms of how it made them feel better in terms of it was a release, this book is the first time I've read someone else describe what they were, I mean, describing more poetically, but as a solution to something, as a coping strategy, as a release, which is very difficult to understand if that makes no sense to you and you think pain is a negative. And the other thing was that we don't really know why at the beginning, but that sex is such a sex itself, even if it was consensual with someone that you might be attracted to. The boyfriend Soren, that instant, that I thought that was,

yeah, I found it hard to read because it's so good that she sort of is her first boyfriend and he is nice, but then he very slowly becomes really controlling. And she's very Christian at this point, and she's saying she doesn't want to have sex. But Ada doesn't want to have sex ever. I know, I know. And it's not something that's on offer. And then when it, the real, also the awfulness that she doesn't even realize, there's a phrase when she says, I realize he had released clouds into me. And she's realized it off way after it's happened.

And I just, I just, I just felt so sad for Ada. I just felt like, you said sometimes Ada seems to be just so unaware of what's happening, you just feel like, oh, and then the spirit that arrives to deal with it is Asagara, and you're like, oh, God. Yes, this person is sort of protecting you, but also it's a very distinct protection that offers a lot of damage as well at the same time. I think that can often be the human experience of an overcompensation to take control of the times you weren't in control, putting words on human emotional experiences that are so

difficult to describe. Can I read this Asagara a bit? she says, wait, is this how humans feel to know that you are separate and special, to be individual and distinct? It's amazing. But I had to remind myself that I wasn't human or flesh. I was just a self, a little beast, if you like, locked inside Adder. Still, it was nice to be able to move her body and feel things. When I came in front, no, it's a rude bit, isn't it? When I came in front, I moved like those masquerades from her childhood with meat layered in front of my spirit face. Oh. Yeah, I feel like it's, it's weird because there's so many things in the book that

I don't feel like I can ever fully understand and do not relate to. And then there are lots of bits which feel incredibly relatable. Usually in like the sense of pain and like feeling like a young person and like discovering sets and like putting this sort of like, there's a bit where Ad is talking, I think to Ewan about how there's always been a mask on

when she has sex. And at the time I think Asagara is probably narrating. Like the words aren't enough to describe what's actually happening that Asagara is taking over and like speaking for her and doing these things. But I think there's all these times where you watch yourself saying something or walk into a room and say something to a group of people. And you're like, who's doing that?

How am I doing that? And it's sort of like a different version of you. Have you ever had that experience on stage? Yes. Because there can be a sort of, you know, like a hidden observer going, oh, you're coping with this well or the opposite of you're already struggling. But you're thinking, who's coming up with the words? Like your mouth is talking back to something.

and it's odd that your brain can do that. Yeah, it's that kind of split. And I think it's sometimes, I mean, I think even though when people are like, as a stand-up comedian, you're so brave, I'm like, no, not true, just an narcissist with a microphone. But I think there is that kind of thing

where you do have to take yourself outside of whatever you're experiencing in your daily life. You are presenting and this other self, you're like, how am I going to do this? I'm so tired or I'm so sad. And suddenly it's like you're being piloted by something else, but also you're, like, if it's going well or if you love your show,

you're like, that person enjoys it. You're like, oh, thank you for getting me to this place so I can enjoy the show. But that person probably you don't want to bring into the real world because you had to have to talk to your loved ones and, like, take the bus or pay for things. And that person needs to stay in the stage world. There are situations where I think the brain is just such an incredible organ, whether it seems like it's working for us or against us. Maybe it has no moral judgment.

It's just going to make you cope. But isn't that interesting bringing it. back to Ada that there's times when they're doing stuff that you think, oh, God, no, like, this is dangerous, but it's not that far from the brain protecting you in a confrontation or in a, you know what I mean? Like, I could see how easily you slip from the 10% that we might do to get on stage and the 50% that they are doing to survive having sex with someone that they haven't agreed to or don't want to because there's some, yeah, it's not hard to imagine it actually once you are honest about how much you do it. Well in terms of the end of the book,

which is really redemptive, there's this line about how before you fix, and I'm paraphrasing terribly because obviously their language is really beautiful, but in order to work out how to put someone back together, you have to absolutely pattern out the way that they shattered. Yeah. So destructiveness as part of the process towards healing was what I took from it, is that it's not clean and pure and non-messy. I definitely agree with that. I felt like it just, it felt really powerful.

There was like such a power in the end of the book and about the fresh water coming out of their mouth and their understanding who they were and that sort of not being discordant in that moment, a moment of real, like all those moments where everything is alive in them. Yes, absorbing it all together. Super, super powerful.

And on the note of it being autobiographical, I reached out to Aquakeo to tell them how much I loved a different book of theirs. So which one was their second novel? The Death of Vivek Oji? Yes, the second, yeah. And it was sort of, I was having a very emotional time. I won't go too much into the plot of that book, but I was like, I'm going back to Ghana and I read your book and like, I had this experience by a waterfall and I am my grandmother.

them. And they replied and they were like, oh, I already follow you. And that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's really cool. That's really special that you had that experience. I met them when they were in London and I was sort of terrified of meeting them because I was like, am I going to meet this like, fractured person who wants to die? Um, and is full of these contradictions. And I probably did meet that person, but also they were lovely.

We went for ice cream. It was very whimsical. And I think that, um, um, I think that's where the, like, danger is in exoticising the author, because I think there's so much, like, pain and fracturedness and discordance. And so I think that I don't know how it is doing interviews about a book that feels so exposing. I think that they're just an incredible being to exist. Yeah.

I just think that they have such an independent, unique worldview on everything. Yeah. And that's what's really intimidating. and you realise that there are people whose intelligence... Oh, it's beyond, yeah. That's why I felt a bit embarrassed sometimes of like... Because it is like someone pointing out this like ginormous room you hadn't seen of like, actually looks like...

Yeah. I'm so sorry, I didn't know that was there. I've been looking over here. You're like, normally I play in the sand. Yeah, yeah. There's a bouncy castle. Oh, wow. Can I read just a bit about gender?

Because I love this so much. This is we talking. And they are talking about, yeah, when Adda starts, mixing feminine and masculine, I suppose, at this point. Just like how having long hair weighing down our back made us want to wear buttons up to our throat. Men's sleeves rolled up our biceps, handsome, handsome things. None of this was a new thing.

We had been the same since the first birth, through the second naming, the third molting, to make the vessel look a little more like us. That was the extent of our intent. We have understood what we are, the places we are suspended in, between the inaccurate concepts of male and female, between us and the brother-sisters slathering on the other side.

And I was like, that's such a nice way of, like you said, the way they're talking about it, of not, it's this, it's this. It's like, it's always been. It's always been. So the character of Ada has a very clear idea of how they want to present. Especially towards the end. And in terms of traditional presentations, it's a little bit of this, a little bit of that. Yeah, yeah. But with a very clear vision of, okay, that's me.

And it doesn't fit into any of those. The traditional, like her family kind of reject her. cutting her hair and the clothes she wears and and then other people friends reject it being too you know they are like you said forging a completely new a new way of being I do feel like a part of your brain when you read this book is is like lifted up and you're like oh I have never encountered that before it's like a mind-boggling thing to write as your first book yeah it's so like a debut like that's yeah a debut like novel it's it feels like something that comes from like someone who's lived on the path for like 65 years

and it's like looking back on a world they are literally a god so they were like it's just the matter I read fresh water because I was like I don't know I think I said something like that was intense except probably and then they were like yeah when I think about it that was one hell of a debut

it just gives you a completely different sort of some access into a way of seeing the world and the way that Ada is like forging as you say this new way of presenting themselves that doesn't fit into like, oh, I'm losing my chest, I'm going to dress more masculine. But it's also like a representation of what they see themselves to be. Like it's like a picture of the divine realm and trying to make that flesh. And so it's actually an incredibly old or eternal concept.

Yeah. And that's their presentation of like the essence of themselves. So they're not like sort of experimenting. They're like getting straight to the truest. And that's the tension, isn't it? But you're right. It's old and new. So we read it and we think, oh, this is very new, but actually it isn't a brand new thing that's being offered on the table. It is something quite ancient that we recognise that someone is doing. Yeah. We should just be grateful that they don't want to start a cult. Oh, no.

Because historically that's what people did when they felt themselves as gods. We would sign up. All three of us here. There's still time. I would have absolutely signed up. It is an incredible debut novel. And I think... And their other novels are so different.

I think that's the thing. They've written so many. They published two in the same year that Freshwater came up. Jesus. Yeah. I feel like there's, like off the head, the top of my head, there's one called Pet, one called The Death of Vivok Oji. You made a full of death with your beauty.

Made a full of death, which was the first one that I read. Content warning, everything. They're so prolific. There's poetry and their short stories. It's being turned into, oh, yes, television show. Yeah. Who you auditioning for? I think, look, here me out,

I could give me out. I could give a little St Vincent. Yes, I was hoping you'd say St Vincent. Yeah, St Vincent. Quite an adorable St Vincent. Yeah, cute. Do you remember when you used to tie your ponytail over your chin to make a beard? When we were in a sketch group called Beer Patrol with Jess Foster Cute?

Yes, I do. So you could just do that again for your audition. Yeah, that would be fine. Sophie, who are you going to play? Oh, I quite like, although I think I'm probably not physically right for the role, when Adda is a child, because they are sort of very close to, like, their mother and whether. They sort of wriggle on their stomach like a snake instead of crawling. And I find that quite like a charming way of movement.

I can really tap into my physical theatre. Lovely, yeah. Oh, so you want to be the child adder. Okay. The child adder. Also, she's very noisy, young adder. Yeah, right from birth, isn't she? She's described as really.

And they're like, this a noisy baby. And she's like, no, I'm filled with everything. I'm gods. I'm all gods. I would like to be the dad. Again, this is very sort of blind casting. But I'd really like to be the shit dad. Are you like this?

Shit dad's soul. the sofa. Now I'm not coming to America. I love also the constant reference to the mum where the spirits are like, look, we don't like anyone. But yeah, the mum did carry her. So fair play. Fair play, she's all right, even though she disagrees with us. There was a beautiful line quite near the beginning about her mom having to go abroad to earn the money for the family. And this is how you break a child. You take away. And this is how you break a child, you know, step one, take the mother away.

Yeah. Broke. I, that made me, I'd be honest, page 32, I was like, I don't know if I can carry on reading because I'm afraid of what is coming towards me. But carry on reading. I do. Because it is amazing book. It's the kind of book where someone like drags you out of it and you like look up at them with like a thousand yards there. Yes. But sometimes that happens within the writing because there's this geography where you're dealing with something in, let's say, a higher realm of description, even though we're still talking about human experience.

And then there will be something so based like the morning after pill. Yeah. And so you get dragged back into. like, this is all the real world. This is all the real world. Especially the teenage American university years where it's kind of drinking and partying, kicking a guy's door down because you're wasted. And everyone's like, you're crazy.

And you're like, there was a spirit doing that. You did that once almost. Excuse me. You kept a door down. I just remembered, oh, well, you were knocking. It wasn't you. It was Asa Gora. That's how our friendship works.

If I was inhabited by gods, they're like, can't keep secrets. They can't keep secrets gods. There is a big mouth spirit in there, just lavering away. Yeah. Bye, yeah. I didn't just write one Bible. I wrote 10 million Bibles.

Full of everyone's secrets. And then you'll never guess what Jesus did next, right? Yeah. He said he was going to call me, but yeah, it's a brilliant read. It's absolutely brilliant. And I hope that we haven't like, yeah, I don't think we put anyone off. Do you know what I mean? It's just, it's not like pick it up, put it down.

It's like, no, it's questioning your reality and it's asking you to do some thinking. And I think that's why I did really enjoy it at the end because I was like that felt like, like I had to. to not work, that sounds wrong, but like I had to really... I should say, in terms of honesty, that I started this book, stopped, and then came back to it, and then it's fine to do that with books. Yeah, that's true.

Because when I came back, for some reason, whether it was because of the thing I'd read before had been so different that I'd taken a while for my brain to just shift and allow this language to flow over me, or sometimes, you know, you're stressed, but I think sometimes we come to books and then go, oh, I can't get into it. And the books on something wrong,

Well, actually sometimes it's you. And if you come back... I was really afraid as a mum, when they started doing stuff with the mum and the child, I was like, I don't know if I can cope with what you're going to do. That's what I was so afraid that they were going to do something really horrible. And actually, no spoilers, but like the mum is okay. And that's what I really thought that was going to be some horrible, awful. Other horrible things happen, but that's...

And Addo is okay. Yeah, that's what I was like, oh, what is going to happen? And most importantly, Jesus is okay. Isha. Iswar. I hope I'm saying that right. The role you were born to play. Sometimes bearded, sometimes not.

Yeah, I should say that as well about the pronunciations of lots of the names. Yes, apologies if they are not correct. Only one person tweet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And someone who knows, not just somebody who has an opinion about. Yeah, no opinions, only facts. And nothing else, just the pronunciation, a recording of the pronunciation. And that's it.

I thought Hermione was Hermione, Harry Potter until the films came out. That's because we didn't go to Oxford. Yeah, yeah. That's embarrassing, Sussex. Did you find doing an English degree put you, off reading for a bit. Yes, 100%. I couldn't bear to read. It was, yeah, it's just sort of terrible. And I think it took me at least like a five years cooling down period before I was like, I genuinely enjoy this. Yeah, I'd say about five years before you can bear to pick up a book

without hearing the, I should be reading this. And you hosted the Booker Prize last year. I did. How was that? I don't know why I said it was such excitement, because it was a mixed bag promotions. It felt very cool to be asked to host the book a prize. I think that they asked me, because they think I'm young and hip. You are? I am young and hip. And you went to Oxford.

And I went to Oxford, so they were like, young and hip, and she could read. Jule Lepa was there? Yeah, she's into books. She's got a book podcast. What is she? Guys, that... Is Julia Lepra competition? Yeah, she started her own book podcast, and that's why she was at Hay Festival. And I saw that one was like, oh, is she

playing a gig? Because I was interviewing a very brilliant new author called John Ransom and I was like I don't want her music to be blaring over while we're silently talking about his queer working class journey and then they were like no she's not singing yeah why are we doing an advert for Julie Laker's podcast it sounds bad it's so cool anyway she was sitting next to Bernadine Ever Easton who was like the person I was like very starstruck to see yeah and I was also um very scared to meet Jui Lepa because I had the briefing call before the Booker Awards and at the end of it they were like do you know you slagged off Jewelie Leper in The Guardian yesterday and I was like, no, I didn't.

And then they referenced an interview that I'd done months ago before the Edinburgh Fringe that had only just come out and they ask you like, your perfect playlist. And one of the songs that I said, it were like, what song do you get out to switch off? And I couldn't think of anything. So I said, Jewelie Leeper's New Rules, which I heard on the way back from a gig. And I thought it sounded like an alphabet song. Yeah. Like a song for kids.

And they were like, I was like, oh no. Like I wasn't aware of it. And they were like, well, Jewel Loep's team were aware of it. And I was like, oh, no. They need to have more on their plate than her team. Turn off with the Google Alert. So I was very scared of the, yeah, very wonderful, she would strike you down.

She would strike you down. And sort of avoided her gaze when I was doing my funny jokes at the start. Did you reference new rules and say it's an alphabet song, mate, to her face? I really like the song new rules just for balance. Hey, I love that song, but I did put it in a pantomime and we did change the rules to the, about the COVID rules, because it is the kind of song. It is a kind of song that you can get kids singing along to. It's a pop song. So you're both right.

It's a brilliant pop song that's very easy. She's a brilliant lyricist when the lyrics are very basic. Why am I doing this again? Why am I turning? But I still think the actual message of how you're going to get over someone if you're under him is really just something to remember at all times. It's relevant. But the booker was, it was cool.

There's such a thing within books because I think you guys are cool. But I think books are weird because they're so personal and private. But there comes along like certain books that just like sweep everyone away. Or like books that are really cult. you can sort of like recognize like, oh, someone's reading like the secret history or like fear and loathing and like you have a sort of idea about them. And I think like everyone in that room like having that connection, but a lot of people being just sort of like really fusty people who love like massive books about war. It's like a sort of like, it's sort of like an interesting energy. It's so easy to have a snobbery about books.

And that's what's great about anything that shows you're not clever than anyone else. We all understand things in different ways and there's nothing virtuous about reading It's the same as watching Netflix You're just getting told a story And that consumes you a little holiday from your life And I think the trouble is there's so much of the book world Which wants to be like, oh my book's longer

That's why I think this book is incredible Because I think like whatever you've read You're going to have to come to this And you get some new glasses And be like, okay, I have to rethink a lot of things And that's why I love books like this It's like, you can't believe Oh, it's actually like you said it's very like this

and I've read this and you can't, all your brain is searching going, it's not like anything I've read. And also if someone told me they were having a particular response to this book, that is absolutely right as well. We fear being wrong. And it's like, if it's magical realism to you, then it's magical realism to you. The whole point is your beliefs make it true.

I have a last line. I am tired of pain. It's just easier to focus on love and an existence outside this world. At least that feels like freedom. Thank you. Thank you, Sophie. Beautiful. Thank you, Freshwater. Thank you so much to Sophie for joining us.

You can find out more about Sophie and her gigs and work if you head to sophyduca.com, and you can find her on Twitter and Instagram at Sophie Dukebox. Sarah's book Weirdo is out now. Run, walk quickly, get a light, brisk jog going and head to all good bookshops or just order yourself a copy online. While you're there, Carriad's book, You Are Not Alone, a new way to grieve is also available. So Top and Tail us. Next week's book guest for you, Ready Robbins, is Death of a Bookseller by Alice Slater.

Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you.