Sara & Cariad's Weirdos Book Club - Friends of Weirdos - Pod Save the UK

Episode Date: October 17, 2025

Sara and Cariad are back with a brand new series next week but while you eagerly await our return, why not take a listen to friend of the podcast and nicest man in comedy Nish Kumar on his incredible show, co-hosted with Coco Khan - Pod Save the UK.Nish joined us for the very first episode of Weirdos - you can also go back and listen to him chatting to us about I’m a Fan by Sheena Patel - but for now, take a listen to this week’s episode where Nish and Coco discuss ... Why can’t the UK get over Thatcher? Plus - “Your Party” infighting is Definitely Maybe over…Guests:Rhun ap Iorwerth Credits:The World TransformedTurn Left MediaCNBCUseful Links:Medical Aid for Palestinianshttps://www.map.org.ukPod Save the UK is a Reduced Listening production for Crooked Media.Contact us via email: [e-mail]: https://bsky.app/profile/podsavetheuk.crooked.comInsta: https://instagram.com/podsavetheukTwitter: https://twitter.com/podsavetheukTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@podsavetheukFacebook: https://facebook.com/podsavetheukYoutube: https://www.youtube.com/@PodSavetheUKLearn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, it's Carriad here from the Weirdo's Book Club podcast. We will be returning with a brand new series next week, so get ready for that. And you can see a glimpse of some of the books that are coming up this series on our Instagram at Sarah and Carriad's Weirdo's Book Club. And remember, you don't even have read the books to join in and listen. But for now, I'm popping in to say while you eagerly await our return, why not take a listen to Friend of the podcast and one of the nicest men in comedy, Nish Kumar, on his incredible show, Pod Save the UK. joined us for the very first episode of Weirdos. You can also go back and listen to him chatting about the amazing. I'm a fan by Sheena Patel as well. So take a listen to this week's episode. Hi, this is Podsabe the UK. I'm Nish Kumar. And I'm Coco Khan. Coming up on today's show, news of an Israel Hamas ceasefire, sparked joy and relief. But the question of what comes next is a thorny one. And are we still going to be talking about oasis in every area of our life? We're going to give you an update on your party and a new dividing line drawn between them and the Greens. Then later, we're joined by the leader of Plaid Cunery, reen up Yourworth, to talk about Welsh independence, proportional representation, and about a massive scandal within the Welsh wing of reform.

So this week, all eyes are on the Middle East after a ceasefire deal brokered by Donald Trump was agreed by Hamas and Israel on Friday. It's welcome news and a rare moment of joy for everyone who's been calling for the genocide to end. I cannot imagine what it must feel like to wake up in Gaza this week. I saw a video of a little boy that I follow online, and he was just standing outside, holding his cat, just saying, oh, you know, tonight I get to sleep and not be afraid. Maybe someday I'll go back to school. And it really got me in the heart.

So on Monday we also saw jubilant scenes as the last 20 Israeli hostages were returned and reunited with their families. And in Gaza and the West Bank large crowd celebrated the rest of, return of 2,000 Palestinians detained over the course of the conflict. There's a lot of talk this week from global leaders about ushering in a new era of stability and security. But we'd really like to draw everybody's attention to Neshrin Malik's piece in The Guardian this week, which is absolutely brilliant, as ever from her. This is a quote from it. If the ceasefire holds, this language is an auger of the future, one where there is no

reckoning, no addressing of root causes, only are hurtling into the imperatives of cleaning's up and working us out. All the while, illegal occupation continues. Another chapter of Israel's violations is furtively closed without accountability, not only for Israel, but for its sponsors. Really, we would draw everybody's attention to that piece because it gets into some of the wider questions about a total lack of accountability for particularly Western government's actions in the Middle East. And again, this is perpetrating a cycle of violence that we've seen in the 21st century. I really strongly believe that the lack of accountability in conversation about the roads to war in Iraq and Afghanistan have left us in a situation where there is no accountability for that sort of decision

making. Yeah. And this piece, and I'm load to use the word peace because I feel like can we call it peace if we don't know what's happening in terms of occupation, in terms of, you know, frankly the apartheid. It's an incredibly fragile piece. And the rhetoric from Trump and Netanyahu who has been laced with, well, I mean, they are threats, aren't they? So Trump has said, if they, talking about Hamas, don't disarm, we will disarm them, and it will happen quickly and perhaps violently. Netanyahu's also warned Hamas to disarm or risk all hell, that's a quote, breaking loose. This whole thing has been sold as a massive win for Trump across the entire media spectrum.

I would once again direct listeners to the most recent episode of Pod Save the World, where Ben and Tommy talk about the specifics of the deal and these enormous diplomatic gaps. And also really draw attention to the comprehensive failure of the Abraham Accords, which remember Trump sold in his first term as an enormous breakthrough for peace in the Middle East and how some of the gaps within the Abraham Accords,

particularly the lack of representation of Palestinian leadership, sowed the seeds for the damage that's been done in the last two years. From a British perspective on this, The government is trying hard to sell the UK as being a key player in what comes next, addressing MPs after his return from the Egypt peace summit, Stama said the UK had been in a position to work behind the scenes for a ceasefire in part because of the decision to recognise the state of Palestine. He also said the UK would support the reconstruction of Gaza, transitional governance arrangements and the decommissioning of Hamas.

But while Stama claims the UK will play a leading role in the peace process, this incredibly awkward clip from the summit suggests otherwise. Is that anything going good? Yeah, Starma clearly thinks he's being invited up to speak. He is summarily dismissed and he sort of has to slink into the background. It is uniquely British in its incredibly cringe-inducing awfulness. Yeah, yeah, it's very, very awkward. But it does tell us that this is clearly the Trump show and we are all just living in it.

We should also note that the peace deal conveniently landed just at, head of the Nobel Peace Prize Award. Which he hilariously didn't win. I've never seen somebody so openly campaign. It's like during Oscar season when people take out adverts saying for your consideration. Like that's what this whole thing has felt like the entire time. Trump just taking out for your consideration adverts for the Nobel Peace Prize. Also, did you notice how he, you know, in interviews he would say, you know, I should win it.

I've solved six wars and then it was seven wars. And he's just making him up. But I asked my mate, chat GPT, what are these wars? And one of them was like an economic normalization deal. Like he's literally anything where there's like a slight amount of tension that he's involved. He's like, I fix that war. Anyway, in a slightly bizarre twist, one UK leader who might end up being very involved is Tony Blair. Trump previously named Blair to be on his board of peace and head up the international transitional authority.

So this is like a board who will, as Israel withdraw. run the territory. I mean, talk about not learning your lessons from the early 2000s. It could not be proving my point more viscerally here. This week, actually, Trump has also expressed some doubts about this. He said, I like Tony. I've always liked Tony, but I want to find out that he is an acceptable choice to everybody, which he may well not be, given that Anthony is, shall we say,

a somewhat controversial figure in the Middle East. I've always liked Tony. And the soprano's energy of this whole thing is sort of making my skin crawl. The way that Trump talked about Tony Blair suggested he'd forgotten who he was. There was a slight air to the way that he kept repeating Tony. There was a slight air of him going, Tony, lovely guy, while his memory roller decks desperately scrolled through. Someone's in the ear.

Tony Blair, Tony Blair. So look, whether this is a historic new dawn for the Middle East, as Trump claims, is yet to be seen. In the short term, though, the alarming humanitarian crisis in Gaza continues. and international journalists have called for reporters to be granted immediate access to Gaza. That cannot be restated enough. It is absolutely imperative that there is full access for international journalists to Gaza now. There should have been the entire time, but it's absolutely imperative that that happens.

Now, the humanitarian crisis is not over. Gaza is essentially rubble at this point. There are still tens of thousands of maimed people, a lot of whom are children, that need medical assistance. So the energy that people have been putting in and the activism that people have been putting in around campaigning for a ceasefire, which is brilliant to see. And there were thousands of people out on the streets again in London on Saturday in cities across the United Kingdom. It's really important that that energy continues and those fundraising pushes continue because clearly the humanitarian side of this is not over. As much as we also need to be talking about accountability and talking about measures that turn a ceasefire into a peace deal,

because this isn't a peace deal, but it's a ceasefire. And a ceasefire is welcome and desperately need it. But at the same time, it's not the same as a framework for a lasting peace. Those are two different things. So it's really important that people continue to keep their focus and keep the pressure that they're putting on their governments around this. No, absolutely. I mean, that is kind of the question now, right?

Where do we put this activism? Where do we channel it now? The worst thing that could happen is that there's a decline in involvement from people around the world. Yeah. Now, we wanted to share the response from one listener, a religious Orthodox Jew, who wrote to us after our discussion

of the recent anti-Semitic Manchester attacks. They described receiving the news after their synagogue service on Yon Kippur. This listener writes, parents were advised to take their kids home and we were told not to linger anywhere outside the building as it wasn't safe. They went on to say,

most of us didn't find out what happened until sundown when we were able to use our phones and check in on family and friends in Manchester. When I heard that the government's response was increased police presence, I felt more unsafe. When the people in power are classing any pro-Palestinian views or actions as anti-Semitism, I as an anti-Zionist Jew do not feel safe. When the government talks about protecting Jews, I do not feel they are including me. They mean the right kind of Jew, the one who agrees with and supports them.

I'm scared I will be defined out of Judaism. If the government really wants to combat anti-Semitism, the first step is simple. Do everything in your power to stop Israel from committing genocide in Iraq. my people's name. Wow, what powerful message. Thank you so much for sharing that. I had chills reading it out because that's the feeling of hearing about this news and not knowing about your loved ones. I mean, my heart really breaks to hear that. But there was a line that they wrote where they said, oh, I will be defined out of Judaism. And I was thinking about that and just how actually for a lot of minorities, there is a kind of homogeneity that plays out with the media, whatever

group it might be, that, you know, this is how this group thinks. This is how this is how this group things. And actually like trying to unlearn that and trying to make sure that wherever we encounter stories about communities, and we do need to hear stories about communities that's important as part of our kind of mutual understanding that we don't fall into those traps. And there is a push certainly in the sort of politically conservative elements of religious groups particularly to push back against any kind of progressive views. You know, it's something that the Hindu community is going through at the moment. this idea that if you don't support Narendra Modi and the BJP,

that is somehow an affront to the tenets of your Hinduism. There are pushes by these kind of authoritarian leaders who intrinsically link their politics to their religion to make themselves the custodians of that religion. And that is an idea that I think is really incredibly dangerous and incredibly loaded. Benjamin Netanyahu was not the custodian of the tenets of Judaism, and one of the oldest religions in the world.

That he is not the custodian of that. Narendra Modi is not the custodian of the religious faith of Hinduism. The Wahavi, Saudi Arabians are not the custodians of the Islamic faith. The Westborough Baptist Church are not the custodians of the Christian faith. It's something we should push back very forcefully against. What this listener is trying to articulate is something that should be really relatable to a lot of communities that we cannot be said enough on this show. the Jewish people around the world are not responsible for the actions of the state of Israel.

And that's something that we have to be absolutely clear on, regardless of where you fall on the political spectrum or where your views fall on Palestine. And I wish that our government was more clear on that. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for sharing that. Our great listener, we really appreciate your input. Now, after the break, we're joined by the leader of Plyde Cunery, Rene Apiorworth, to talk about Welsh independence, proportional representation, and about a massive scandal within the Welsh. wing of reform. So, 2026 as May elections are shaping up to be seismic. Many councils across the country will be contested, but massively important is the fact that the Scottish Parliament

and the Welsh Senate will also be contested. And joining us now, fresh from their conference, is the leader of Plaid Cymourne, at Your Worse. Welcome back to the podcast. It's lovely to be here in person this time. IRL. So the last time we spoke to you was just ahead of the general election last year. Since then, we've turned to the Welsh elections in May as one of the biggest tests for Kirstarmer's government and one of the areas where reform and, of course, applied, have an opportunity to upset the status quo, potentially unseating the Labour majority that has existed since the formation of the Senate. It's, you know, no big deal, I guess. Momentous historic, you know, we can chuck all these words at it. But it is. I mean, Labor started their streak in. 1922 and they've won all Welsh elections since. You know, I'm not going to sit here criticizing them for being successful electorally.

But the fact that we are coming up to elections now where there is growing belief, hope, depends who you're talking to, expectation from others, that there really could be a change now, that that is really getting people interested and focused on what's happening. And for those of us on the sort of more positive, more progressive, more progress. side of politics. Looking in despair at times at what's happening across the border in England, we can see that there is a real hope to be able to put forward and gain support for the positive alternative to what's going on in global politics at the moment. Before we dive right into the conversation about the actual dynamics at play between the parties, it's really important to contextualise that there is something very different about this particular election because Wales is about to enjoy its first election with proportional representation. So can you explain a little bit

for our listeners from around the country how this is going to work and how it could be, you know, it's a potential game changer? Yeah, we've had a kind of proportional system since the assembly then was established in 1999, but it's been a hybrid system where you've had 40 seats selected in exactly the same as Westminster, first past the post, old-fashioned, discredited, but, you know, still still in use, and then 20 top-up seats elected on a regional basis, which gives you an element of proportionality. That's going, and we're moving to a system where it's all going to be a proportional system. So you, in effect, sum it up, you have a smaller number of larger constituencies with six members in each, where the seats divvied out on a proportional basis.

What that gives you is the opportunity for change. That 40 first-past-the-post seats gave Labor effectively an inbuilt bias in the system. They still had to win those first-past-the-post seats, but they were largely in post-industrial areas where Labor had that strength for so-so-long. They had that in-built bias. That has gone. It's a more level-playing field. And if you consider that one of the biggest barriers to change always

is people believing that change isn't possible, you know, they were going into elections, reckoning that they were going into elections, reckoning that they knew what the result was before they started voting. Labor's going to be the biggest party again. This time it's different. So when we say, you know, you want Plied Company to lead government, you want a different way of doing things, put an X in the box, that'll count.

You can get that Plade government. We should say at this point, Plied are currently leading in an all-Wales opinion poll, sitting at about 30% of the vote to reforms 29% with Labour on 14% and the Tories on 11, and the Greens and the Lib Dems at around 6%. If these results stick, if you can convert that opinion polling into a hard electoral success, there will almost certainly not be an outright majority party,

which means that the next Welsh government will have to be a coalition of sorts. I know that you've already said how this would play out. But just for the sake of our listeners, let's hear it straight from you. What's your intention in the instance of a hung parliament? Again, a bit of context. There's never been a majority government in Wales in devolution, but Labour have had around or at half the seats. So it's not new to go into a system where it's unlikely that somebody has a majority.

But you're right. Nobody's really expecting anybody to have a majority. So what do you do then? One, I say to people, wait until after the election to see how the people of Wales have shared out the votes. We want to reflect the voice of the people of Wales. It's not imposing a government or a set of Senate members, it's up to the people of Wales. But it's important also that they understand what, some of the elements are that will guide us in our decision making.

Reform, diametrically opposed to Plied Cumbry on pretty much everything. We're not going to be working with them because they are trying to undo and undermine so many values that are important to me and my party. Same with the Tories, if they're going to be there in any significant numbers. We know they face an existential threat. And then it's, okay, how do we get, if it's Plied Cymry that has the honour of having been chosen by the people of Wales to be the biggest party, I'm first minister, how do you then bring stability? Do we look across those parties that we share values with, look for common ground, and I ask them, listen, this is our program for government.

Will you support us? How can we build some stability and take Wales forward? I mean, you sort of set yourself out as a progressive, even just in the course of this conversation. So it follows naturally, and you've already ruled out a coalition with the Reform Party and the Conservative Party, if there is, again, it's very, very, be strange that we're sat having a conversation like this. I was listening to your pod from after the Tory conference.

People questioning why they'd bothered going. It's remarkable that we are at this point, but we are there. Yeah, so obviously there's this natural alliances to be formed within Welsh politics for you. I mean, you seem pretty open-minded about working with the Labour Party, but

you haven't actually directly had the chance to engage with Kirstama in person, right? Or directly? Yeah, no. I was asked in an interview last week, actually, in the conference, have you met Keir Stama? And I had to say, no, I haven't. I was racking my brains to think, did I interview him when I was a gym? I've met Keir Stama.

I did question time with him about six years ago. How is it possible that a stand-up comedian with undiagnosed IVS has managed to meet Keir Stama and you happen? Well, I have the pleasure of presenting breakfast news programs and that kind of thing for many years. He may have been a guest on. something. I don't remember. But as a politician, you know, when he was approaching down East Street, it was clear he was going to win the last election. You know, we said, let's sit down and talk. I want to influence the UK Prime Minister to do the right thing by Wales.

I don't think I got a response to that particular letter. And then I asked after the election, you're really looking forward to sitting down with you. And he again chose to pass us on to the Secretary of State for Wales. But if I'm First Minister for Wales, I want to build up a very constructive relationship with the UK Prime Minister because, you know, we need to push the boundaries of whole host of things on investment in infrastructure in Wales, getting our railways up and running, getting fair funding sorted out, you know, as being able to control our natural resources in Wales. And Labour have, you know, really failed to persuade their Labour colleagues to do that. So I want to do it constructively.

So, I mean, we talk about a progressive coalition on this podcast a lot, and it seems like that may actually come to fruition here. It doesn't have to be a coalition, of course. In fact, in my conference speech, I appeal for an alliance before the election. An alliance of people who, let's put it bluntly, wants to stop reform-type politics, that kind of divisive politics to come together and hopefully see that in polite company they've got somebody they can trust to lead government. Following the election, coalition is a word that people often jump to.

It doesn't have to be a coalition. Cooperation can work in a whole host of different ways. It can be informal, formal issue by issue. So it doesn't have to be a coalition. And certainly if the polls now are close to what the election might be, might not, that could certainly mean a minority-plied government, not a coalition. So we'd be looking at that. So, okay, so let's just call it an alliance then.

And you've got a plied bit of Labor, bit of Lib Dems, bit of Greens. And you're all working together. What are the areas you first want to tackle? Where would we see change quickly? I mean, there are a number of things that speak for themselves. We've gone through a period of, you know, desperate problems in the health service in Wales. So we've got to get scripts with that. And, you know, I've made it clear that we will prioritize just getting those waiting lists down. Because unless you are able to just do that and do it pretty quickly, you're not going to be able to then do the other thing that we need to do, which is to build sustainability in the NHS and care sector. And certainly we want to build an alliance around,

Or how do we make that switch to a preventative revolution that we absolutely need to do, keeping us healthier and so on? But there are a host of other things that we need to do around housing, for example. Now, I announced in our conference recently that the Pied Committee would legislate for a right to have a home, which throws up a lot of challenges when you haven't got enough homes and so on. But if you're saying, right, that is what we're aiming for. It's difficult because you've got to up the housing. house building program.

You've got to take steps forward on a host of different areas but actually it's really important and you need an alliance of people willing to support legislation and back spending to make it happen. Infrastructure, a major one in Wales

still. There's been a big lack of spending on rail in particular but other elements of our infrastructure which holds back productivity. Productivity holds back the economic growth that we need to make as a more prosperous country that we need in order to be a more equal country and so on. So this is all part of what I would see as a progressive agenda that we need to build an alliance behind.

And what Pleid is saying is, you know, things have been stagnant for too long. We haven't been bold enough in moving forward. So let's have a new leadership under us. Do things differently. So let's just talk about reform briefly. So as we mentioned, you're polling at similar-ish levels. There is a story that's specific to Wales and the Reform Party, that we are as guilty of anybody as not covering this sufficiently.

So the Welsh Division of Reform is currently leaderless after an admission from the former leader Nathan Gill. Gill admitted last month to taking bribes from Russia on eight occasions while he was a member of the European Parliament. This is an extraordinary story, right, Rehn? It is extraordinarily important as a story. We should say this is shocking. perhaps the strength of the story

and the impact of the story is that it perhaps isn't too shocking to people. He has pleaded guilty to doing something that people have been questioning reform about. Could they really be more interested in alliances with bad actors that work against our interests

than actually in pursuing what's right for our communities? And you know what? Yes, the former leader of reform. did admits to taking bribes from Russia. And we should just say for clarity for our listeners, Gil pled guilty to taking bribes for making statements in the European Parliament that were supportive of a particular narrative that would benefit Russia regarding events in Ukraine. He's admitted to the bribery and his barrister told the old Bailey that it is recognised

that it is inevitable that the defendant will receive an immediate sentencing to prison and Gill is going to be sentenced in November. Farage has reacted by saying that. he was stunned by the news. Gill and Farage have been working together for a long time, right? Yeah, and their candidate in the current by-election that's being fought in Wales. I used to work for Gill and Farage,

and he, you know, are tripping over themselves to say this was nothing to do with us, but it was to do with their leader in Wales, the leader of reform in Wales. And, you know, the significance of that, I think, is a bit of a penny-drop moment for people. We know that, you know, this is a global phenomenon,

of the political right and, you know, they are trying to portray themselves as a movement of the people. The people, I am totally convinced, and I would hope that you are too, do not want political leaders to be colluding with and forming alliances with people who are undermining every single day values that are important to us here in the UK in Wales. It is appalled. that this happened. And when you think of, you know, there's a major debate currently in Wales about a what's called a nation-of-sanctuary policy

that government has. It's not about migrant numbers. It's about treating people with humanity if they end up in Wales. Pretty much all of that has gone on helping people from Ukraine to come to Wales that most people, I think, who are possibly being persuaded by reform

would think is a good thing that we're on Ukraine's side, are we not? And here we have Reforms, former leader in Wales, taking bribes to talk down Ukraine and promote their enemy Russia. This is really, really appalling. So why is reform so popular in Wales? I mean, you've got this massive story. Farage himself is saying, oh, I don't want to be, I don't know about my policies. It's too early to say.

He's avoiding the question. It's too early to say for elections that are happening in May. It's definitely not too early to say. It's an interesting way that you ask the question. Why are they so popular in Wales? And I hear it all the time. Wales is there, you know, it's their front line. I think in England currently or on a UK level,

they're polling something like double digits ahead of Labour and the Conservatives. I know, but can I say that we, I sometimes think progressive people in this country expect better from Wales than England. Maybe that's it. Maybe that's it. And we'd like to deliver better. One thing I would make clear, though, and I think this is really important.

I'm not for a second playing down the success that reform is having in the polls in Wales. Now, the point I was going to make was that, you know, it seems it appears from, hey, what I'm hearing on the doorstep, the length and breadth of Wales and from the polls, consistent polls now for, you know, many months, by the way, that there is a party and it's plied Camry in Wales that is able to beat. reform that is offering an alternative. We know that incumbency in politics is not a big strength at the moment. We know that there's real disillusionment with the old guards, if I could call

them that, you know, the deep disillusionment with Starmer and what he's done in government, with Welsh labour in government for failing to stand up to him. So people want a change. And what we have in Wales, and that's what we're trying to work very hard on, is a way to offer an alternative. that doesn't mean going down those avenues of supporting parties whose former leaders take bribes from Russia. How do you combat that disaffection? I mean, it's a question we ask every week to different people, how do progressive parties, there's clearly a sense of disillusionment and disenfranchisement and a kind of economic dislocation with people who are watching a system year on year not only fail to make their lives better,

but in some cases are seeing declines in their quality and standard living. How do you push back on that specifically in Wales? Well, A, it's about recognising that there are those deep concerns and frustrations and anger within communities, the length and breadth of Wales at the problems they face in accessing health care of the quality that they should expect as taxpayers or the problems of housing, the continuing weight of the cost of living on the most vulnerable in society. These are very, very real problems.

So I say, you know what? Yes, I 100% recognize that. I see it in the communities that I live in. I experience the problems with transport and health myself and within my family. So if we recognize that there is a problem, how about having a debate about what those real problems are? A, I will always try to persuade people. Don't blame poor people for the problems that we have. Blame governments for failing to take action. Don't allow yourself to be pitched against your neighbor because billionaires are getting away with it, because governments allow them to get away with it. And that's the way we address it. And then by offering hope, you know, a rare commodity, it seems, by providing answers. If we have problems in health, we will offer to do this. If we have problems in housing, we will pass legislation on a right to a home. If you're struggling with the cost of living, Plight Company will introduce a universal childcare offer that will take the pressure off you,

give children the best art in life, will take the pressure off grandparents, this intergenerational pressure that families are feeling now. That's how we're doing it. It's not by burying our heads in the sand. It's not by tarring everybody with the same brush. It's about saying, listen, there is another way of doing this, and we can do it in a positive way rather than encourage,

the fragmentation of society that sadly we're seeing now. What does that mean for independence? I know you've said that it's not something you're going to push for in the first term. Where do you see that mission now? Yeah. And to me, independence is never an end in itself. It is a means to build a different kind of society in Wales. I ask people to look at the debate on independence as a debate on whether we can do things better in Wales.

I don't think that the way things are now are the best they could be. I have always believed that in order to really be able to build a different kind of society where there is fundamental equality at the heart of everything that government does, we need to have a redesign, if you like, of the way the UK works now. Independent countries working together, you know, countries in these islands will always be our closest friends and allies and economic partners, but let's look beyond that to Europe and beyond. say let's have that debate. But it's the people of Wales who will decide on the time scale of when

we move forward. It's my job to try to lead people, to try to persuade them, to try to encourage them to look openly at what the opportunities are for Wales. So that's where I am on independence, massively excited about it, wanting also to deal with problems right now on health and jobs and education and the cost of living in poverty. Yeah. You know, the deep, deep issues. But we should always have an eye on the future. So it's not a priority for you in the short term, you'd say?

Short term, yeah, that's a fair way of putting it. I've often said, I'd do it tomorrow, but it's not up to me. You know, I've got to bring Wales with us because I believe that gives us then the building blocks of doing something very, very different in Wales. I want to get other people excited about it. And moving the debate on, on the constitutional future of Wales, getting more people engaged with it. There was a really important piece of work done in the past few years. The Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales, chaired by the former Archiebishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, and Professor Laura McCallister,

two eminent, highly respected people who engaged with people, length and breadth of Wales as never before on could we do things differently in Wales? And they came to a conclusion that there were three different viable options for Wales that we could choose. One would be having more devolution, absolutely needed to do some things right now. The other one was independent. You know, it's viable, they said. It's just, you know, how do we overcome the challenges and make the most of the opportunity? So let's take that debate on to the next phase. I suppose if you're the largest party in Wales, when you start teasing this out again, pushing it again,

and you'll be in a much stronger position, right? Well, yes. And, you know, I've said that we would have a standing commission to engage people in the conversation, not to impose it. Yes, yes, yes. You can't impose this thing. You know, this is going to be done by people in Wales saying, you know what, yeah, tell us more. Tell us more.

Answer me this question. I'm not convinced about this. What about that? And that's what we do. And in government, if we're able to persuade people to trust us, to be there, to lead the way forward on all those important. day-to-day issues, then we build trust in, well, if they're serious about dealing with health, I think they're serious about trying to find a different constitutional future for us as well.

So I'll listen to them, you know, not sure yet, but let's move forward. We have this Indy Curious label that has become more prominent in recent years. I would describe myself musically as Indy Curious between the years of 2006 and 2012. Yeah, so there's been a big, big increase in support for independence, people saying, Yeah, where do I sign? Yeah. And then there's been an even more, perhaps more significant increase in the number of people who are indie curious who say, yeah, I'm interested in this. Definitely not against it.

Not convinced yet. Have you heard of indie slees, reeds? Indy slees? Yeah, well, you're going to tell me now. Well, I'm just looking up. Just looking up. It's nothing to do with politics. I'm not sure it's what a politician agitating for independents wants to directly associate themselves with.

It's basically the internet terminology for that. year of, you know, 2006. Early 2000, you know, listening to the strokes, that sort of thing. And that kind of

culture of drinking too much. It was kind of before smartphone, so lots of Gen Z, which I continue to call them Gen Z, are looking back on that time with a rose tinted glasses. Anyway, I just mentioned that to you.

Yeah, and I'm fascinated. If you want to become big on the ticotok, I believe that's what they call it. Perhaps you could talk about indie sleaze. I definitely don't think. Listen, I'm not a political advisor, and I have got no dog in any fight, but I would say,

don't coin indie sleeves. You don't want to take Cocoa Car's political advice. I have conflicting advice here now. I'll go away, research you both a bit more. Now that's leadership, Rhine. That is leadership. Rina, up yours. Thank you so much for joining us on Potsay for the UK. Thank you both. Great to be here. Now, after the break, a century of Margaret Thatcher. Can we please get over her now? This Monday was the 100th anniversary of the birth of Margaret Thatcher. Did you celebrate? Yes, I did. And I'm not a liberty to disclose how I celebrated it.

And as if to fire the ceremonial canon, the political establishment frothed at the mouth paying tribute to the Iron Lady. Kaby Badenock made a pilgrimage to Thatcher's hometown Grantham, where, and this is not a joke, Thatcher Fest is kicking off celebrations. Unquestionably, Thatcher is a topic of considerable debate between the political left and right. Many of us would condemn her for the introduction of the neoliberal doctrine that we continue to live through to this day. One of the biggest and most lasting consequences of Thatcher's legacy is undoubtedly her trademark right-to-buy scheme that saw the selling off of council houses, which many critics would argue has directly led to some of the biggest issues in housing and society today. Unaffordable cost of housing and the funding crisis are just beleaguering our councils and that's having a knock-on effect to so many public services. The political right in Britain has lauded those same policies and the commensurate lift in home ownership that lifted many people across the UK.

into a better standard of living, policies that empowered business and the power of capital. So it's no surprise, therefore, that her image was plastered all over Conservative Party conference last week. Also, let's be real, there is not a lot currently in the Conservative Party to celebrate. And so I think former glories are pretty much all the Conservative Party has. I'm surprised they weren't selling commemorative Stanley Baldwin mugs. As always, this Labour government, to be fair to them, cannot catch a break. They're often condemned for either continuing to prescribe to the doctrine of Thatcher and Leanderbalism or some right-wing columnists of a pine have wiped out her legacy. Coco, we were born in the 1980s

with very much children of Thatcher's Britain. Why do you think the Iron Lady continued to sort of cast a shadow over British politics? I mean, what I want to say is because our political class are all public schoolboys that they have a thing about a buttoned up woman telling them they're bad. That's what I want to say, but I don't know if that's actually. helpful comment. I mean, look, she definitely transformed Britain, I would argue probably for the worst, because honestly, I feel like now here in 2025, there's so much evidence that so many of her policies were bad that I'm quite shocked that so many people want to go to her hometown and celebrate. It's an absolutely fascinating thing. I mean, more important thing that is part

of her shameful legacy is Thatcher's legacy on the rights of LGBTQ people. Section 28 was a Thatcher era policy, the banned local authorities and schools from promoting the teaching of the acceptability of homosexuality as a pretended family relationship. Section 28 was still on the statute of books when we were at school. That's how long and toxic that legacy lasts and lasted. And it is something that should be brought more to the foreground when we discussed that just legacy. Because obviously, rightly people on the political left talk a lot about the economic policies and the kind of day-to-day problems that are still being created by some of those decisions. But there is also this sideline of, you know, the treatment of gay and lesbian people in

this country and the transgender community is so intrinsically linked to a policy like Section 28. I mean, it's an absolute disgrace. A few years ago, I watched a movie called Benediction, which is a Terence Davis film about Wilfrid Rowan and Sigfried-Sazoon. If you were a school in Britain, I don't know if this still happens down, but it was just sort of constantly read to us. We were constantly taught about, you know, D'OCHER. decorumess, pro patry, morey, you know, like all that war poetry that particularly those two produced.

And like, I was watching this movie and it's about the affair that those two men had and about Sigfrie Tussoun's life in London as a closeted gay man and how, you know, eventually a lot of married women and had very unhappy marriages because they were kind of suppressing their real identity. And I was just sat there, just sort of boiling with rage at the fact that we learned so much about Wilfred Owen and Sigfrid Sassoon. And at no point did anyone say to us, oh, by the way, they were gay. You know, they're important building blocks in the national story that we tell about ourselves. And this whole thing was, you know, you have to respect these people and these men and what they did.

And you're like, the ultimate act of disrespect, we paid them in the way that we were teaching our children about them is to not engage with the fact that they were gay men. And part of that sort of a murder is directly linked to Section 28. obviously we've talked about the right to buy and we've talked about neoliberalism, but there's also all these cultural ways as well, you know, the promotion of family values and the, you know, the demonisation of single parents. I mean, I felt that in my own family quite personally. The various ways Margaret Thatcher has touched our lives, it just can't be underestimated. For more on the sort of economic background, I would draw listeners' attention to the invisible

doctrine, the secret history of neoliberalism, which was written by George Mombio and Peter Hutchison, and I would draw listeners attention to an episode we did with George Mombio where we discussed that book. It would be very helpful if I could remember what episode number that was. Just do me favour, don't ask chat GPT about it for God's sake. I am going to. Don't ask chat GPT what episode that was. There was no need for that.

It's all very accessible. For the benefits of the listener, I just want you to know, when we went off air, Nish did genuinely give me a stern word and was like, you have got to stop using chat GPD. I just, this is all, I'm sick of people. I heard you, okay, I will stop. I'm sick of people talking to me about saying, like, I asked ChatGVT about something and you could just have Googled that.

ChatGVT largely seems to be a sort of intermediary between you and Googling something. But he tells me I'm clever. He says I ask great questions. ChatGPT is not a substitute for seeking therapy. So I don't know if this is a good segue or a bad segue, but we did actually talk to an AI-trained chatbot, trained upon Margaret Thatcher's speeches and policies. So we asked it, should Nish Kumar be allowed to continue to do comedy? And the AI Thatcher Chatbot said,

As I am no longer living, it is not possible for me to provide a current opinion in Mr. Nish Kumar or his comedy. However, I was always a staunched offender of free speech within the bounds of law. I actually don't know if this is Maggie Thatcher's voice. I'm just doing a general, posh lady. In a democratic society, individuals must be free speech. to express themselves, whether through political discourse, journalism, or indeed comedy, so long as they remain within legal limits. In essence, if the market supports it and abides by the law,

it ought to be allowed. There you go, Nish. Does the market support you? Yes, it does. I can't believe I've just listened to you, Riedel, an AI chatbot trained on Margaret and Thatcher's speeches. Stuff like, my one's like this, I think, you know what, as a species, we're done. And actually, we deserve to be. We deserve to be. This is a bit. This is a bit. what we've used the miracle of life on earth to do is ask an AI chat bot whether an idiot should still be allowed to do his pointless job. So it doesn't end here this segment, I'm afraid. I am about to go full gossip magazine journal on you. Guess who's been spotted out and about and there's rumours that they are together? Not Affleck and Jailo again. No, not

Katie Perry and Justin Trudeau either. Have you seen that one? Yeah, I've seen Katie Perry and Justin. intruder. That's weird. It's weird. Did you know that Katie Perry was the ambassador of the British Asian Trust, which is a charity for British South Asians, and she was the ambassador for a while. Anyway, Katie Perry lives in my mind rent-free. Yeah, it's weird. I don't know. But it's not them. It's actually a better duo, Zara Sultana and Jeremy Corbyn. They were both at the launch of your party, Liverpool, and the Left Wing Conference, The World Transformed, which happened in Manchester the last week, Sultana compared their reunion to the Gallagher brothers saying the show is back on the road. I don't think that's a good comparison to bring up.

The Gallagher brothers have not reunited out of a love for a philosophical or political project. They've reunited for cold, hard cash. That is not a good reunion to draw parallels to. It's one that's happening not through any mutual respect, just purely out of financial and contractual necessity. That's the worst analogy you could have drawn, Tara. Well, you know, I'm just happy that they've patched things up, but the question is, is this all just a little too late? Has the tour bus left with Zach Polanski in the driving seat?

So the Green Party has reached over 100,000 members for the first time. That's a whopping 50% rise since Polanski became leader. They've overtaken the Lib Dems, and if this momentum continues, they could be on course to become bigger than the Conservatives. So that might also explain why, Sultana was keen to draw dividing lines between your party and the Greens. It's a question that lots of progressives have been asking,

or what's the difference between you? So here she is speaking to the world transformed on Friday. Zach Polanski, the leader of the Green Party, said that he absolutely would continue diplomatic relations with Israel. I absolutely disagree. It's a genocidal apartheid state. And if anyone wants to look up the Green Party online on their website, you will see that they believe NATO has an important role in maintaining security for member states.

I think NATO is an imperialist war machine and we should withdraw immediately. So this was clearly a rehearsed line. It's not something that you came up with on the spot because it was later repeated in an interview with turn left media. We should have a policy and I hope members pass this that we should withdraw from NATO because it is an imperialist war machine. Whereas the Greens on their website say that NATO has a. important role in maintaining security for its member states. So working with Israel and NATO, that is the dividing line. What do you think of this, Nish?

I obviously was born in Britain. I have a lot of family that were born in and still remain in the global south. Countries in the global south, I think, will always maintain a kind of skeptical relationship with NATO. And I understand that there's a lot of legitimate criticisms and conversations around it as an organisation. I am confused by this being the dividing line that your party is choosing to draw

between themselves and the Green Party. Just talking about things that relate to people on a day-to-day basis, I'm not sure how much the average person on the street is spending time thinking about NATO. I think it's also an odd time to talk about NATO because the organisation at the moment is kind of under threat from Russia, which is also an imperialist war machine.

Also, I'm concerned that the, attack lines are being drawn. I was happy to hear a sort of conciliatory approach coming from Zach Pallansky in the Green Party about the possibility of working with your party. I would like to think that there will be alliances formed in the advance of the next election. You know, we've just talked to Rene today about Plaid Cammary wanting to actually have an alliance in advance of an election rather than have the election and then scramble around. I mean, those are not the words he used. I'm editorialising on my interpretation of how he was feeling about that. The thing that everybody keeps saying to me is, oh my God, do you think your

party in the Greens are going to work together? Is there going to be some kind of cooperation that prevents the progressive vote from being splinter? And Zara, when she was on this podcast, was very keen, I believe the exact phrase was, you don't need to shit to yourself about this. But further fragmentation of the left between your party in the Greens is something that deeply concerns me. I'm still, I'm sorry Zara shitting myself about this. If you're listening, Zara and Zach, please don't split so much that the only leadership I get left with is Katie Perry, the ambassador of South Asians in Britain. Please. My concern with any further fragmentation of the progressive vote is that it opens the door for Farage to become the Prime Minister. And if Farage becomes the Prime Minister, regardless of what any Margaret Thatcher chatbot has to say, I'm in real trouble.

We're in real trouble. God. It's a, yeah, no, it is a really, really dark picture, which, Which is just in an immediate moment really annoying for me because I had a joke that I was going to do about, don't worry, because you'll hear the left roar. It's the Katie Perry reference. Can we, before we go, can we just fact-check this thing about Katie Kerry? Who? I'm not asking chat of GPT.

I refuse to ask chat GPT. All right, well, Nish does that. According to the British Asian Trust's website, she is still listed as an ambassador. Is Katie Perry Indian? If I missed something incredibly. I don't think she is. Thanks for listening to Pod Save the UK. Don't forget to follow at Pod Save the UK on Instagram, TikTok and Twitter, and BlueScribe.

Pod Save the UK is a reduced listing production for Crooked Media. Thanks to Senior Producer James Tindale and producer May Robson. Our theme music is by Vasilis Photopolis. The executive producers are Louise Cotton and Katie Long with additional support from Ari Schwartz. And remember to hit subscribe for new shows on Thursdays on Amazon, Spotify or Apple or if you get your podcast, The producers have put a note in. The producer put a UK-related factors that Kayi Perry married Russell Brand in a Hindu ceremony.

I'm learning so much about Katie Perry here. Yeah. She got married in India, in Rajasthan, in 2010, in a traditional Hindu ceremony. Less ideal who she was marrying. Russell Brand. He does not represent our nation at all, Katie. That's the British side. What about the Asian side?

I don't hear that she's related to Mahatma Gandhi, Jalal al-Nehru, Imran Khan or Ramesh. Ramesh. Sri Lanka. Yeah, no, I... He hasn't... I haven't heard any, any relations from any South Asian countries. Next week, join us for our exclusive episode is Katie Berry Indian.