Sara & Cariad's Weirdos Book Club - Heart the Lover by Lily King with Lily King

Episode Date: July 9, 2026

This week's book guest is Heart the Lover by Lily King.Sara and Cariad are joined by the incredible, award-winning author Lily King.In this episode they discuss writing by hand, notebooks, The Great Gatsby, first love, teachers, Mr Polis and Desmond Morris.Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you!Follow Sara & Cariad’s Weirdos Book Club on Instagram @saraandcariadsweirdosbookclubProduced, recorded and edited by Naomi Parnell for Plosive.Assistant Producer is Amy Townsend-Lowcock for Plosive.Artwork by Welcome Studio.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Sarah Pasco. And I'm Carrie Ad Lloyd. And we're weird about books. We love to read. We read too much. We talk too much. About the too much that we've read. Which is why we created the Weirdo's Book Club.

A space for the lonely outsider to feel accepted and appreciated. Each week we're joined by amazing comedian guests and writer guests to discuss some wonderfully and crucially weird books, writing, reading and just generally being a weirdo. You don't even need to have read the books to join in. It will be a really interesting, wide-ranging conversation and maybe you'll want to read the book afterwards. We will share all the upcoming books we're going to be discussing on our Instagram, Sarah and Carriads, Weirdo's Book Club. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you. This week's book guest is Heart the Lover by Lily King. What's it about? A girl arrives at college and falls in love, and it's about how that affects her for the rest of her life.

What qualifies it for the Weirdo's Book Club? Well, it's about people who love books, talking about books, and falling in love. It's right, up our strata. In this episode, we discuss writing by hand. Notebooks. The Great Gatsby First Love Teachers Mr. Pollyce and Desmond Morris

Lily King is an award Rining writer she is an amazing back catalogue but her most recent book Heart the Lover was recently shortlisted for the women's prize

Welcome to the show Lily King Woohoo Hi Thank you so much for having me We're so excited We're so excited

We're so excited Yeah I'm starstruck In awe of your writing have been for a long time I read Writers and Lovers when there's a man

called Stephen who is the head of the whole of Faber, and he tweeted about it, because this was back when people used to tweet things, just sort of saying, oh my goodness, this is my book of the year. And that must have been,

how many, eight years ago, maybe? It would have been the year writers and others came out. Wended writers and others came out. Yeah, 2020 a week before our lockdown. So six years ago. Wow. Six years ago. Yeah, you have read a lot of news work,

well, I thought I'd read all of your work because I kept telling Carrie ad, and then I've looked at the front of your book and I haven't. But I've read five Tuesdays, in winter, and that's short stories, brilliant, and euphoria, which I love so much, which is sort of fiction based on sort of true, really existing. Yes.

But we're here today talking about the women's prize shortlisted book, Heart the Lover, which is why you're over in this country, because we have the Women's Prize announcement. So we should say to listeners, we're recording this before the Women's Prize announcement, but this episode will go out afterwards, so obviously. Also, let's just say competitions don't mean anything. Competition is not a competitive sport. Absolutely not. But congratulations.

Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm so excited. But you must have felt with this book that the second your proof started going out, people were getting very excited about it. Yeah, did it feel instant? Kind of excited like? No, I don't know if it felt instant. It felt like a kind of a slow trickle.

And the only way I could sense that maybe was slightly different than my other books was that my editor in the States just she seemed to have a little bit of a spring in her step like just a little she was just a little more optimistic yeah yeah yeah and I was like what is that you know that seems new well what was going on here

is that people who had a proof were sort of bragging about it you went straight to everyone's at the top of the to read pile and then I remember Sam Baker who's an amazing one of the brilliant book club clubbed podcast oh okay so yeah so Sam's amazing so Sam's amazing so Sam read it and then she posted about it

And then Annie Mack was like, oh, I loved it too. And Annie Max is really cool. Again, amazing podcast. Judge on the Women's Prize. And she's a really cool music DJ. And then so everyone's just watching this interaction and being like, oh my God, I want to be in that gang with people who've already read the book and can talk about it. I had a really nice introduction to it because obviously I was a judge this year and I had a pile of a lot of books.

And I picked it up before any, you know, like anything. And I actually hadn't read any of it work before. And I was just like in this like ploughing through reading. And when I started reading it, I was like, well, this person's obviously 21. They're 21. And I was like, that's weird though, because they're sort of talking about like, talking about like the 80s, aren't they? Like the way they're referencing that.

I was like, that's a bit weird because like, that's clever that they've done that, I guess to hide that they're 21. Because the book starts with this sort of very youthful people in college. And then the book moves forward. And I was like, oh, well, this person is in their 30s. But I was like, I couldn't believe how. I wrote down a line because. Oh, my God.

How you capture youth at the beginning of this book. I honestly thought, that's why I haven't. I was like, oh, Lily's, this person's 21. Capturing use as it was at the time, not in how we remember it. And I underlined a line this morning. So it's after she's been to see the deer hunter on a date. Our main character, which is in Jordan. Yeah.

So the movie starts. It is long and brutal. and then so as they're walking, you know, they're showing each other their dorms and pointing out. They said, the movie has made these buildings, these quads, these years of our lives seem unbearably naive. I want to say something about it, but that feels naive too. I know. And that is, that's the kind of thought you have at a certain age. You don't have those kind of thoughts in the same way with the same self-consciousness once you're in your 40s.

Yeah. Yeah, the freedom that those characters have while they're out of college. We've jumped ahead as we always do. Lily, could you just tell us. what Heartle Lover is about for our listeners who haven't seen it or whatever. I mean, they have, but just in case. Yes. It is about a college senior who goes on a bad date with a smart guy.

And it really changes the next 30 years of her life. Just this one date leads her down this path. And it's really about your very first love. your very first heartbreak. And then as she gets older, you know, we make two leaps in time. And it really becomes about time. And it becomes about loss and many, many different forms of love, I would say. Yeah.

Yeah, I can't talk about the second, two-thirds of the book without bursting into it. So I concentrate a lot on the beginning. That's why. The beginning was a lot easier to write. Yeah. It really was. I was so happy when I was writing that. Yeah.

I got clobbered by the rest of it. I really neglected. You can feel that in the beginning, can't you? Like it said, so it's our main character, Jordan. She is at the beginning, who's at college, and she's dating this guy, and she's hanging out in a house with his friends. And like, we met at university. Yes, that's what I was going to say.

We met at, well, you were 18 when I met you, weren't you, or 19? 19. 19 had a gap, yeah. But, like, it reminded me of, like, that feeling of when you were just so young and making friends. Anything to do with university. You just picture your one, don't you? You picture your dorms and your quads and everything. Did you picture this at Sussex?

No. No, okay. I pictured it at my university. I was imagining American versions of everything. Oh, were you? Yeah. My brain isn't that sophisticated. No, colleges are so much bigger.

Are they? Are they? I think I always imagined ten things I hate about you, the college that they go to in there. Oh, I see. Oh, I don't know what that one is. Yeah, but this is supposed to be big. Yeah, like, I mean, but to be fair, our uni was a big sprawling campus uni, which is actually quite, to be fair, it's quite American style, I think, yeah.

I've never been to America. I can't imagine it. It's in Brighton for me. You know films. Weird a few years. Don't come down. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Going through a good face.

But you kept, like you said, just that feeling of like hanging out with people. And time. And just that you, I think you say that there's a nice bit in the book about time being this. So, like you said, so flexible when you have so much time in your early 20s to just hang out. That's what you're doing. and talking. Yeah. And so that thing about reading things or writing things and having time to talk about them.

And that disappears. And I say that we have a book podcast because otherwise we would never be able to talk to each other about books. We had to sort of schedule it in as work. Yeah. And also they have no phones. I mean, that's a big part of their, I think, their existence, you know, and maybe part of the attraction for people reading it. I don't know. It's less stressful I find not to read about people on their phones.

Yeah. Do you think that's why there is such nostalgia for the 80s and 90s? Yeah. The pre-technological thing. It does seem like it's part of it. I find that, you know, my young readers, they don't, they, a 25-year-old or a 20-year-old really can't imagine a world without it. Yeah. And so it feels so different, almost science fiction-y to them.

And there's big points, especially in this book, where, you know, in terms of dating or hearing back from a girl. guy. Yes. Oh yes. You are not, there's nothing. He didn't call your house and you weren't in. Working abroad sending each other letters, not being able to Skype and Zoom and things that people take forgotten now. And just the trouble of communication that that comes from that. And I think what you do is so interesting because now we have so much access to each other. But that doesn't mean that that solves anything. It's just more access to each other. Where these characters don't and they get confused in a different way. Yeah.

But then maybe their life would have been, do you know what I mean? think it's so interesting. So much of them is... Did you still have this when you met up with your friends? So if you would arrange to go shopping or something on a Saturday, and you would just say a time and a shop to meet outside of. So if people were late... Well, you just left. Well, you just stood there, and then maybe an hour, then you go, okay, they're not coming.

Yeah, I know. It boggles the mind how we found anything, and we got anywhere. But also, they, these characters don't have any... They don't have any... The only people they can date are the people that they meet. Yeah. I mean, there's no other way to find anybody. You have to meet them.

You know, you can't. So it sounds like you're saying you've got to get the horse to a different town, but it's like, you're right. It's like, yeah, that was it. That's how you met people. I'm trying to think, is this true? Am I making this up? No, but that's also like, that's how we became friends because we met each other and we were doing the same degree. Like, otherwise I would not...

What? Is it just ease? Is that all I am to you? No, but like, that's how we met. It was like, it wasn't... No, but my photo, my camera took a photo of you. Yes. When I first met Carriad, I hadn't really spoken to her

and had an instant camera, because that's the days. And I was taking it out of my bag and it just flashed. And then when I got my pictures developed, it was of Carriad, which is so witchy. Yeah. Do you still have that photo? I do, yeah. Very long, gothic hair. Oh, yeah.

Black hair down to here. Oh, my gosh. Gosh, really? Yeah, it was a proper goth. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that. Yeah. And you were not.

I had never made friends with anyone because they were nearby or it was easy. No, I still don't take a face with that. No, I chose you. Yeah, I chose you. I chose you. But what it meant was we had to be in the same place at the same time. Okay, yes, yes, of course. So if I hadn't been there, then it wouldn't have happened.

But I tell you what hasn't left me to go back to the characters in the book. Just how attractive men who can talk about literature are. Yeah. Yes. So even there's a moment, I'm, I've, I've, I've, I've, just started reading Ulysses. Okay, so it's a project. And then, so on the re-read, I noticed, you know, you just got an extra character saying,

what's your thoughts on Joyce? And it's like, this is what I live for. Yeah. Like, and have lived for since then. Because before university, lots of people don't have necessarily friends who are passionate about the same things, but that's what university or college gives you. Yes, exactly. It's people who are cleverer than you and have read all of the other people and have opinions

about it and then recommend things. And was that your college experience? Yeah, I was going to say, what was your experience? Well, I was just, first I was going to say about Casey that, you know, she's a senior. She's, she's already gone through three years and she's finally finding her people. I mean, that's what's kind of special about where it begins is that finally she finds, you know, this group of people who she can really communicate with and also who inspire her and kind of push her forward. And I feel like I had a similar experience. Yeah. I went to big universities. I went to two big universities.

And I didn't really find my people until the end. Oh, wow. And in fact, one of my very, very best friends in my life is somebody I met after I graduated at a restaurant like the next month. And we had two shifts together, maybe one shift together. and it was just click, click. And I was going to ask you, too, if it was just click, click immediately or was it the photo? There was no, there was a moment. It was click immediately for me.

So what happened? So we were rehearsing a play called Our Country's Good. So it's like 20 or 30 people. But then we walked back to our halls together. So it was quick because I know how Ed hates the story. I don't hate it. But she started talking about having gone for a smear test that day. And I had never known anyone talk about that or talk about it openly.

Wow. I'm just like, oh my God, who is this woman? Wow. Who just has that kind of confidence. It was amazing. It was amazing because I came, yeah, you know, it's that thing of going, no one that I know from home would ever have just dropped that into conversation casually. And then I think, then you came to my halls and we had tea.

Your horse was on the way. So I had to pass Sarah's to get to mine. So we walked back from rehearsal and then, yeah, I told you about my smearth. And then you were like, join a cup of tea? And I was like, yeah. I don't know if I suggested it because I don't think I'd ever drunk tea with anyone. That's another thing that felt to me very class. Classy.

Like middle class. I think we were chatting outside your halls for so long. It was like, oh, let's go and have a tea. Anyway, we drank so much tea. Yeah, we got the shakes. We got like a caffeine sort of high. And I remember as you left, I was trembling. Yeah, like, so it was sort of like rock and roll and not rock and roll all of once.

But that's what I'd like this book. But it was that when you just realized, I could tell you of anything and talk to you. Got up with a person to tears. That's so beautiful. I don't feel like there are enough books about female. Yeah. There's lots of books about female. friendship, but I don't know, like the meat cute, you know, and the, these are, they're so special.

They're so precious. And they last forever if you're lucky, you know. Yeah. Well, best friends as a thing. Do you remember when we met Sarah Barron and she was just like, I'm obsessed with people who've got a best friend? It's such a type of person. It's a type of person. It sounds like an eight-year-old thing to say, like this is my best friend. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You just captured that in this book so well of all the different types of love. Yeah. Like you said, I called her Jordan earlier, but she's like Casey. The nickname.

So for a lot of the book, we think of her as Jordan. Do we find out Casey name quite late? Very, like last week. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. And so she has this friendship with these two guys. And you said, like, talking about literature and stuff like that.

But it's a full different. It's not just romantic love is what I think this book is not just like a romance. There's lots of other strings and complications and nuance to love as well. And I really think you can make an argument that the relationship between Sam and Yash, their friendship. That's the really big love story. I mean, that lasts. There's a moment that I love early on because living with a friend is so different to living with your family or a partner. And the fun of living with a friend.

So this is the first date of Sam and Casey. and then Yash comes home and he starts sending his story and they both just sort of like slide back into the sofa and I'm not doing it justice but essentially they both lean back and it's a thing of you about to get a show from a funny person who's about to tell you the story

and it's such a funny story of this terrible date and the girl who sort of unhinges her jaw as she goes in for a kiss and I was like oh my God again it's that thing of time time to listen to it, sorry we've got really young kids but it's time to listen to an anecdote and to enjoy it And then what do we want?

Is it a drink? Is it food? Evenings running out. Not just being like, I need to go to bed right now. I think I guess the reason that the beginning of the book, the first section of the book, is so beautiful and poignant is those characters don't know. And that's what we heard, right? You don't know. Which is why a reread is really hard.

The re-read is much harder. Have you had lots of people say that to you? No. No. Yeah. Yeah. The reread, because you know what's coming, I guess. Yeah.

Yeah, I can't do the reread. I couldn't do that. So this, we should say, this character you've written about before in writers and lovers, if people are mega fans of your work, which I'm sure lots of people are. When did you think, oh, I want to come back to this character? So you said that came out in 2020, writers and lovers and had done extraordinarily well. So did you have a moment you were like, I haven't finished with this? No, I did not have that moment at all.

In fact, it sort of happened in reverse where I started. I was writing something else. It was a disaster. I had to give it up. It was a murder mystery. And it was like trying to encapsulate all my rage about the Trump administration. And that's really not a great. It's not a great motive to write a book, really. A novel. And so I switched gears and I flipped to the back of my notebook that I was writing in. And I just wrote the first scene where this, you know, young woman senior in college is in a classroom and her professor is reading her essay that she wrote and she gets the attention of the two smart guys in the class. Yeah. And there's such a lovely moment because she's printed it on this like orange card from a Halloween party. She's a slacker, let's just say. She's not a good student. And as this, this story has passed back to her, these two heads of these smart boys turn around to see who's it was. Yeah. And just such lovely details. Just such lovely details. Yeah. So you're like, oh, that's

interesting in terms of anger being, especially with someone like Trump, who's not going away anytime soon. Yeah, well. Being unuseful. He's 80 years old. It's mad. It's absolutely insane. But in terms of creativity, isn't that interesting that some emotions, it might make it harder to be created, to have fun, to have things flowing. Yeah. Well, and I also think if you have a point. If you have a political axe to grind or a point to make, it's not, it's not, it's not always the best, at least for me, the best, you know, way to think of a novel. I think with novels, I have to be more open-minded. Yeah. And kind of let the story unfold as it will unfold. Yeah. And so that is actually what happened with Casey. And I didn't know I was writing

about her. I mean, I was just, I was writing along. I was writing these scenes or, you know, maybe like a scene and a half or something. And then in the very back of my notebook, I always keep notes. And so I was going to take a note about Casey's husband because I knew we were going to make this big leap in time. Yeah. And so I mean, I was thinking about it as this young unnamed narrator. I didn't have a name for her. And I didn't even notice that I didn't have a name for her. But I needed to write, make a note about her husband. But instead of writing and then her husband, I wrote, and then Silas, and I was like, I looked at it and I was like, what? Like, why did I just call this man, Silas?

And then I was like, she's, and that means. And so it was kind of a deductive process realizing that this was actually her. And I. That's amazing. Yeah. And my first instinct was like, no, no, no. Don't be like, don't. This is not, I'm not a series person.

I'm not a sequel person. Everybody knows the sequel's worse than the thing before. So why would I ever do that? I just, it was not something I wanted to do. And yet, it stuck. And then they had that conversation about her playing golf. And it kept on happening. And I kept on thinking, well, I'll fix this later.

My editor won't like it. My agent won't like it. But then I just, I think there's something so, there's something so witchy about that as well because. Yeah, goosebumps. That's like the story wanted to come out. Yeah. Even with the best writers in the world,

there are unintentional things happening in the subconscious. that you can't deviate from. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like a deeper sense of, no, this is the story. It's true. And the same thing happened with the, I'll just call it the secret. Yes. Because she has this secret that she keeps from Yash for many, many years.

And that was not in any of the drafts forever. I mean, for all the drafts. Yeah. Until 12 days before I had to hand in the final draft and it was going to go into production. Oh, my God. And were the seeds of it there? Because this is like what you were saying, you know. I didn't think there were any seeds there.

But what happened was I read over the last part and it was just so flat. And the whole reason I wrote the book was for this last part. I was really interested in that and it wasn't working. It didn't have its own engine. You know, it was a separate section. But it was just blah. And every time I read it over, it was bad. And my husband, I sat down 12 days before the book was due.

And he's like, what's wrong? And I said, I just can't make it work. It's still flat. I've tried everything. I've ramped up the tension. She can't be there. She has to be home with her son. You know, the son's condition has gotten much worse.

Like, over the drafts. You know, I've made this on sicker and sicker. I've really tried to, like, and it's not working. And he said something that he'd said for, like, a year that he'd gotten from a book about screenplay writing and this, like, trick to, you know, increase your tension. in your screenplay. He's like, she has to go there with a secret. It's like, she has no secret. You know, I had been saying all year, I'd been saying there's no secret. Stop saying that. And, but this time, I only had 12 days left. And I was like, I looked in it and I was like, fine. And I went into my study, which is right next to where we were sitting. And, and I opened up the last

page of the first section. And I changed like five lines. And then I called him in. and I read it to him and I actually got goosebumps when I read it to him and then I really don't know if this is true but I think he had a little tear in his time I gotta verify that with him it might be just like pride of like she finally

listening for a year she's got to have a secret guys I told you and so then I was like okay okay I have goodbye I have 12 days and I had to rewrite the whole thing basically from that moment on

and I had to create like the whole second part really evolved and changed. And then the third part, you know, it changed the dynamic. It changed their conversation. It changed the whole reason she was there. Changed everything.

And it created the engine that I needed. Yeah. Gives that third, the last third of the book, such a, you know, you are as a reader the whole time. But I remember reading that moment and I was like, what? I had to go back. I was like, I didn't know. Hang on a minute.

What? In terms of building tension, waiting for a character to know a thing that we know is tenterhooks, it's edge of your seat because you know at some point they're going to or you want them to, you need a reveal. Well, either they're not going to say and it's painful or they are going to say it's painful,

so you just know something is going to happen. And we are already so invested with these characters. So that's an incredible note to get from your husband, isn't it? Yeah. And like you were saying, like it was there waiting. It was just the book like opened up. It was so relieved. noticed.

It's just so really. The characters had done it. Yeah. And you just hadn't, you hadn't twitched that curtain and looked behind that. And what was funny is, for a year you had been saying, she needs a secret. And I knew what the secret would be. Yeah. You know, there was only one secret.

And yeah. And so maybe somehow subconsciously things were happening. I was just going to go back to that political thing, trying to make a political point with novels, and particular with very, very good novels, like the ones that you write. it's always two things are true at once or three things are true at once in terms of humanity. People are really complex whereas with making a political point

this one thing is true or this one argument is trying to be made and it is quite restrictive where actually what you do what you probably end up have to do is flip yourself and say something you completely disagree with. Exactly.

And you also have to make those characters to write from Donald Trump's point of view. Because you have to make them proven and 360 and then you're like and make people the main character in their own lives which means they don't think they're a bad person. Yeah. Like they think they're the best person.

Yeah. Yeah. You're holding a notebook. So I just want to ask you what your writing process is, could you talk us through like this? Because you use a pen and paper. Yeah, yeah. No, I'd be, I mean, I write exactly the way I wrote in my creative writing classes in high school. I took two one, one semester for junior year and senior year of high school.

And we had to have a three and a half page short story on our two. teacher's desk every Monday morning. Wow. With the beginning and middle and end. Yeah. And, and I wrote, I would write every Sunday morning with a pencil and a spiral notebook. Yeah. And I really have not ever stopped writing exactly like that. So you must be able to write quite quickly like that. And you must have good handwriting. Because I think so. Well, I can't write that because my handwriting is legible. So I'm so jealous. I find it more and more unlegible. And I have to really, sometimes I have to trace over with my pencil to figure out what the word was. I have written, yeah.

But I usually figure it out. But I just, is this heart the lover, this notebook? Yeah, this is the second, oh my God. That's incredible. And is it always the same kind of spiral notebook? You must have preferences. Yeah, I switched recently to this kind of ivory colored. That's lovely, yeah.

Maybe possibly recycled, but maybe possibly not. Also, some of the big ones, the papers start to come off. Do you find when the paper's come loose? Yeah, these don't. I don't know why, but they're super cheap. I mean, I just get them at staples. And then, and then, so I write, I like writing by hand because I don't erase anything. I just cross things out so I can always see the original.

Wow. And with computer. Do you know that the brain works differently with the computer? Yes. You've seen the studies. Yes. Whether you're trying to learn things from other people, whether you're note-taking or creatively, it's much more surface on a computer.

Yeah. It feels that way to me. I mean, my sentences literally are different. My sentences are very kind of subject, verb. period. You know, they're shorter. With handwriting, I go on many more tangents. With my handwriting, for me, I just, I have access to my creative self. Yeah. I just do. And the creativity on the computer is, it's accessible, but it's different. It's much more editorial. It's much, it's much more, let's fix this. Yeah. So when you were 12 days from handing it in,

you'd handwritten, not with the secret, but then did you done computer write the secret in? I've already moved on, you know, I get the first draft down in pencil on paper. And sometimes I'm typing along, you know, there are moments where I'm writing the first draft where I feel disconnected from the material. And so then I start typing it in just to remember it. Like, oh, right, oh, right. There was that neighbor and what happened to him and, you know, all that kind of stuff. And so I just, and I kind of clean it up a little bit. But then I go back and I do it all.

Sometimes I have a whole notebook where I have to type, and that takes months because I'm very slow. And then finally I get to the end. And then I start printing out, reading it on a piece of paper, taking notes in the margins of the printout, typing it up, typing up the changes, printing it out. I mean, I do that like six or seven times before anybody sees the book. The physicalness of printing, I find, is the only way I can really take something in. And I've had this recently that I read something on a Kindle and I don't remember it. as well as I remember something on paper. I have said that for years. And it's really unnerving because I know I read that book, but I read it on a Kind of. The studies they've done in colleges and universities are that people who are typing up their lectures, it doesn't go into long-term memory, stays in short-term memory, and then your brain goes,

so it's just really shallow. Whereas people who make handwritten notes, their brain has to engage in such a deeper level, so many other functions that they remember it so much better. Whereas now they tell them to have iPads and screens. Oh, yeah, they have everything. I know. While they're learning. Well, it's to say, you know, this study in Norway that they gave all the kids' iPads

because they were like, this is the future ad from nursery level. Yeah. And Norway had the highest reading and writing levels in the world, one of the highest. And they descended from, so six years later they tested, they had some of the worst reading writing. Because they were like, it's the same. iPads are the same. And they realized it literally isn't the same. But as in that, how your brain engages with it's so different.

They were giving them to nursery kids. Oh, good luck that. There's been a lot of tantrums. I don't have that to have that to. I'm ripping up. of children. I want to go back to his notepags. I'm just like so fascinating.

Do you make notes in the back? Yes. And so I take notes. I take notes in the back. It looks amazing. You know, because when I'm writing, I get ideas for what's happening.

Yeah, yeah. I don't. And then when the notes get too crazy, I make a little timeline. Oh, nice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. And so it's just a line across a page

and then little tiny, tiny moments. I mean, as you can see, it's not type A structure. And also, this is the kind of thing. You know, I don't know if you've ever seen Jane Austen's table that she wrote on, which is the size of this side table. It's so tiny and it's like women are not taking up space. That's how I feel about your timeline.

So I feel like if he went into a man's study, it would be all that spread across the floor. And you've just done it on a sideway day four. It's just me in between conversations between my mother and my sister. When you were at school doing your creative writing, was there a point where you realized you were good? As in imagining how your teachers responded to your work. Did you know you were good early? or did you know that you loved it and that's different? It's such a great question because I, it was the only thing I loved.

And I didn't really like any other subject. I just, I liked English. And then when I discovered creative writing, I loved creative writing. And my creative writing teacher wrote in red pen and he just like write one sentence under the story. He might write a few things in the margins. He was excellent. And I, in my memory, he thought I was a really good creative writer, okay, in my memory. And I do remember one time getting one line that said at the bottom, Lily, you are the master of the family tale.

Master of the family tale. And I, like, held that. Like, honestly, I mean, that just made me feel. So I just didn't get a lot of, you know, really much attention academically. I would say. And then when I think when euphoria came out, or possibly Father of the Rain, my local paper, the Portland Press Herald,

went and interviewed him. And he said he'd gotten out his grade book. He'd gotten out like, you know, whatever. And he was like, and we had kept in touch, and he's a friend of mine. But he was like, yeah, she was nothing special. Literally. Nothing special.

She was very middle of the road. She blah, blah, blah, like, he was not going to give me anything. It was hilarious. It's not all the way I remember it. Tony Paulus. Mr. Paulus. Maybe he wanted to inspire other children and other young people. Because sometimes people hear a story about someone who was amazing early on.

And they think that's a sign that they shouldn't persevere. Actually, lots of people aren't amazing. They work really hard. He didn't. He should have said. She was A-style all the way. He weren't underby heads of social. school and heads of schools. And he had a theory about leadership, which was, this is our job

to make sort of the unspecial become special. So I know that I fit in to his, you know, his theories. And so I tell myself that he actually did think I was a little special. But I actually think if you probably didn't. But the word master, you're the master of something, to say that to a person at an early stage in their creativity. And there's a, there's a line that you put on. I think is it Yasu gives up the creative writing because of the feedback shows sign of future promise. Right. And there are things like that where you're being, you're not being told this is bad, but you're not being told you're a master. I know. And he was so used to being told. Of course, yeah. Incandescent. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Genius. And adults who give feedback,

that thing of locking into a thing, which doesn't mean it's always going to be easy, but that you then become willing to do the work and enjoy the work and becoming better. That's the sort of the trick, isn't it, in terms of what you're saying about that teacher, encouraging people to build a lifelong love of something. Yeah. I mean, that's a skill in itself that probably is undervalued. And also with creativity, you know, like you look at Yash, who really wanted to be a writer. but it was almost like his academic success held him back because he was too scared to fail. Yeah. Right?

So he didn't want to pursue it because he didn't want to fail first. And I think, you know, if you come from kind of failure or not, you know, was shining, shining success, then then you're okay with taking those risks. And creativity really is about risks. You can't win it, I think, with creativity in general. The job I do stand-up comedy is my proper job. And there's a species of people that can do stand-up comedy. And the form of failure we have, you can't protect yourself from with success. The failure gets worse.

If someone expects you to be good, it's even more disappointing when you're not. And there's a certain kind of personality that wants to go out every day and sort of start all over again. and you do have to be content at least with the opposite or knowing that you're on a journey to one day being better if you need to win there are again I think it's quite a masculine trait

sorry to be so crudely sexist like golden boys who were always the best at everything find it really really hard we've talked about that to improve haven't we because of like yeah I knew I found it easier and we knew we were like better English

but we were also nobody was paying any attention no one was like well you're amazing yeah yeah yeah So when you come to creativity, you're more like, well, I'm already think I'm a bit sheer. Right. So I guess I'll just carry on being a bit shit. But if you've been told, you're amazing at this.

Like, yeah, it's a harder position to then be vulnerable in. And actually, that transition from school to college or for us here, university, to be in a bigger pond. Some people don't flourish in that environment as well when they were the best. Yes. And then all of a sudden, the middle of the group. Yash, don't you? Like, he's in a very, the seminar is a safe place. Like, the teachers love him and he can reference his ancient Greek and do this.

But to then go out into the world of novels and publishing, anyone could just go, well, I just don't like it. Yeah. I don't care how clever you are. I just don't like your writing. Yeah. I just think you write such good characters. They're so complex and nuance. Like, you can see that Yash could have been a writer.

He could have been. He just, or made a, he decided he couldn't do it. And therefore, then he wasn't a writer. And that's all it is, these tiny, tiny. choices that we all make. This next part of the podcast is brought to you by Who Gives a Crap, Bamboo Toilet Paper. You know when someone recommends a book, and after a few pages, you think, why did no one tell me about this sooner?

That is how I felt when I discovered who gives a crap. I think you can tell a lot about someone from their toilet roll. Speaking of which, they've challenged us to rattle off a few of the things that we also give a crap about. I'm giving a crap at the moment about sorting out my books, because I had a crazy amount of books outside of my bed. Crazy. And now I've organised them all into what I'd like to read

What I'd like to read, but it's for the podcast. Yep. And people have sent me this, I should read it. And then I had a lot, a lot, a lot of like, need to be put on a shelf, Women's Prize things. And then I donated a lot to my school summer fair so that the PTA can pay the music teachers. I give a crap about people taking books into the toilet.

Yeah, we don't like it, do we? I don't like it. I love people who read. Yeah. Maybe you just finish your poo first. And also, I don't think you need decorative books in a toilet when you've got who gives a crap. Toilip paper. Oh, yeah.

It looks gorgeous. It looks gorgeous no matter how, whether you've got a shoddy bar from a rented accommodation or a nice bar from you've had done recently. It looks gorgeous. I give a crap about toilet graffiti. Oh, yeah. People are so wise. People are so magical. I love it when one person writes, like, you know, Darren's treat me terrible.

And someone's like, you can do better than him. And it's like, sometimes we can't always meet in the toilets in person and give each other confidence. But I will say is, I know Darren. And you can do better and you deserve more. And come on, sister. And I love that. And I love it. Once I saw someone, right, Sarah Pascoe is cool, it's a gig I'd played.

So it wasn't just like, oh, I'm at Topin Court Road. Someone knows me. But someone who's written Sarah Pascoe was cool on the back of the toilet. And that was, I did feel pretty cool. I'd give a crap about the recycling actually. Oh, yes. Because things in my house have a double use. Yeah.

They have the packaging, which will get recycled. But in between that, my kids will make art. The Who gives a crap box is really good. Like, it's a strong box. You can get two kids in that. And that's how many I've got. Yeah. And there can be a rocket or a robot or a car.

Yeah. A couple of crayons. If you put it downwards and have the flaps out and you carry, color them red and yellow, that looks like the fire from a rocket. Hey. That's very good. It will last for like a week.

Yeah. I tell you what I'm really into at the moment. And it makes me want to weep with joy when people have set up little free libraries where they give away books where, I mean, there's one in a phone box I can think of, but sometimes you would just do it outside their houses. They've made a little wooden one painted. Keep the books dry.

Yeah. I love it so much. And I love, obviously, cost of living crisis. There's lots of things that people are having to go, you know, luxuries. Yeah. And books shouldn't count as that. But I love the idea of like, I love this book. You might love this book.

Pass it on, pass it on. You can tell, Sarah. You can tell when someone gives a crap, right? Because if they're using who gives a crap, it means they've got toilet paper that comes in beautifully designed paper wrappers that you'll want on display in your bathroom. It's super soft. It's made from sustainable bamboo materials.

Every part of the brand feels like it's done thoughtfully. Yeah. It's so lovely. And 50% of the profits, and obviously this is my favorite thing. They're gorgeous. they're lovely and soft on your body, but 50% of profits made are put towards helping improve access to clean water and toilets for the billions who live without around the world. Doesn't it make you feel good about it?

Oh, it makes me feel so good. Yeah, and then you go to the bathroom and someone else's house and you're like, they're a good guy too. Yeah, they're good. I'm glad they're my friend. I see them at your house. I see them at your house. Yeah. My kids got upset at Christmas because they had sweeties all over them and they really thought

there was going to be something more fun inside. Sorry kids, that's life. Good lesson to learn. Shop in store or buy online at who gives a crap.org. really missed the characters when I finished the book. I'm not going to say too much specifically. We're going to do a little Patreon add-on with some spoiler questions. I read it in a day and I really neglected my children and I had to start drinking in the last third. So it was pre-bedtime before Christmas and mummy cracked open a mug of wine because they don't know it's alcohol if I've got it in a mug.

And because obviously and my kids would be like, why are you crying? You know, because we're doing like magnetic tiles at the same time and I've just got the book in my hand. I just need to know what happens. And then the next day, saying to my husband, I feel like I've been through this thing with three of my friends. And now, and the other book I had that, did you ever read A Little Life? I did not. Okay.

I haven't read it either. Well, everyone just says it's so sad. I know. At the time, I didn't think I could handle it. Actually, this is what I should say to you is, it is a sad book, but the characters feel so real to you. That's why it's sad. It's not sad if you don't care about people.

The front cover is a man in act like, like, like this. I thought I had four male friends in New York. And I just have lost their phone numbers over a little life. And that's how I felt about your characters as well. And then my brain kept telling me stuff again. I was like, stop reminding me. And like, because it felt it latched in so real. You write so well about love.

And this is obviously such a theme of this book. Is that something that you are surprised you're writing about? Like, are you like, did you, or did you set out when you were younger to be like, oh, I want to worry about love. No. I mean, I am surprised. I really did think, you know, I come from. from such a dysfunctional family that I thought that's where I would live my whole career.

Yeah. Is that I would just be writing about families. And I did write about families for the first three. And then I was like, I'm tired of families. And I had to make this leap to, you know, historical fiction with Margaret Mead. I just, I read a little something. And I thought, God, I just, I need to know more about that. And then suddenly it became a novel.

And I don't know. I got, I got, and I realized I'm not writing about a family. family. Nobody has a family in this book. And actually, I don't even have running water or the house per se. And so, but the love, you know, I was interested in the love triangle in that book. And so then, and then I feel like I did sort of, I mean, there's always been love stories in my books. But yeah, I think for the last three, it, they've been, I don't know, the love stories have been more of the focus. And because of how you begin the book, which is with this amazing, and actually I'll read it, because this is how you get people to pick up your book in a book shop and make sure they buy it. Oh, it's such a good beginning. You knew I'd write a book about you someday. You said once that I'd dredged up the whole hit parade minus you.

I'll never know how you'd tell it. For me, it begins here like this. Because of the directness of that address, has that made people think you are telling a very true story to you? Are people trying to sort of excavate your... Unfortunately, sometimes that's what happens with novelists. And what's true, though? And what does happen to you? You know, all of that stuff.

I read that Vogue article that you read about these other friends, you know, and being in Maine, Maine, Massachusetts. Which one do I mean? Well, I don't know because I live in Maine, but I grew up in Massachusetts, and I wrote two Vogue pieces about two old loves. Oh, okay. So I don't know what you're talking about. About the boy you watch from the fair. Oh, yes, yes, yes. Yeah.

And I was thinking, it's interesting. It was a really beautiful piece of writing of autobiographical. But I thought the same thing. But I thought the same thing. I was like, are you being made to write these things of people want to go, well, who did you love, Lily? Right. Because we, men coming out going, yeah, it's about me. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Doing that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they do, they want you to publish things around publication, right? And so, but I made the choice to write about that. And it is, I mean, it's not the same situation at all. Obviously, I didn't go to university with him.

but it was about loving and losing, you know. And so I thought that it would be, you know, it kind of goes along with the themes of the book. Yeah. But yeah, do you find yourself, like, when you're writing, you ever worry that somebody will think it's them or somebody will be annoyed that it's not them? I really, I mean, and I say this for all the writers who are listening,

you cannot think about that. Yeah. You know, you honestly, that is, along with like this judge, in your head that tells you everything is shit, you cannot listen to the voice that is trying to protect the world from your writing. You know, you have your story, whether it's fictional or non-fictional, and you are allowed to tell it, it is your story. I feel like I can feel my voice shaking because I feel so strongly about it. And so I really, I try to listen to that advice. Of course, you know, thoughts slip in and I think I'll change it later. I'll fix it. I'll do something,

you know and so I just get through the first draft giving myself permission to write anything yeah and then and then if I feel like there's something but I honestly usually even if I feel like there's something it's all integrated with the novel and so I can't take it out and I just Elizabeth Stratt has this great line and my name is Lucy Barton I don't know if you've ever read that book it's fabulous and her mentor says writers are ruthless and you have to be ruthless and you have to be ruth if you want to be a writer. Yeah. And I think that's kind of true. I mean, I just, I think it's really important to the writer self has got to be ruthless. Yeah. And then the person, you know, I've had to send people a copy of the book before publication and write the letter and explain what I've done. Well, you have to do that because you're successful.

I think the advantage of being not successful is they might never find out. And you don't have to actually send them a thing. I think it's interesting the ruthlessness, because actually I don't think it's about choice. A little bit like when you're talking about your creative process and the subconscious kind of knowing something before you did, I think that's what stories know. And that's why you can't take those details out.

It's like if you take that thing off the shelf because that moment actually is borrowed or has existed in your brain forever and just vomited itself up, that's the thing that makes this feel authentic, even though it's a fiction. and the same Dolly Alderton and she's quoting someone else

so I can't remember what writer she's quoting but she always gets asked she's a very successful novelist here and she always gets asked they want it to be her life story always they always want her to be the character and she always says all of it's true none of it happened

and it's such a wonderful way of going it's both things it's both things at once this character is real and this is happening and that's why it feels so authentic yeah no it's true but every single detail is false I often say that I've had these emotions. You know, these emotions are true.

I've experienced them. But how, like all the scenes, all the dialogue, the characters, the details of the characters, it's all made up. And then, you know, people can say, but you went to a university in the South. For me, I've really grown out of that. And actually, I think this podcast has helped me. I do think there's this thing, maybe it's about not wanting to be lied to where you almost want to pull a thing you like to part. And it ruins the thing that Mark Twain quote about, you know, you kill the frog. Oh, yeah.

Like the dissection of it. Why do you need to know? And when we were at university, they had this huge thing about death of the author, which meant that the author's biography didn't matter. Because you got too into, you know, they're actually talking about Zelda there. Right, yeah, right. And you know, this person died in an asylum. And all of that's too much weight for a story sometimes.

That stuff's really brilliant to write about university. Yeah. Like, that's essay. It's essay worthy if you have this information. you can be like, well, I can get 20,000 words out of this. But as a reader, it's not necessary. It can diminish and it shouldn't be part of it. Which brings us kind of neatly onto the Great Gatsby, actually.

Okay. Because one of my ex-boyfriend, he is a very nostalgic boy, and he went to Oxford and did English. And him and his friends, oh, my God, do they love the Great Gatsby? It really speaks to a certain kind of man. Guys love the Great Gatsby. It's a bit like Catcher in the Rye or something. The people who it speaks to it speaks to it speaks to it.

do so strongly. Yeah. Also, majority male. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I saw Gats. Have you ever heard of Gats? No. I don't know if it ever came here, but it's only been in New York twice for a limited run,

kind of almost 15 years apart or something. And it is a six-hour production. You go for eight hours, and you have three breaks. One is includes dinner. Everything you're saying is my worst. No, it is amazing. I am not kidding. This show is maybe the best thing.

I've ever seen on his stage. Oh, wow. And all it is is a guy in the 80s, like on an old computer that's glitching at his insurance office. And because he can't work on his computer and he's bored, he reaches into his desk and he pulls out the great Gatsby and he starts reading it out loud. And there are office people working in his office. And, you know, it's just a classic 80s, you know, steel file cabinets and like some sort of like window with almost like a dispatcher-like person. And people, first they're like, what is he doing? You know? And then they kind of, then they sit like around him occasionally and listen.

And then they slowly turn into the characters. The guy reads the entire novel for six hours. So you hear the entire Great Gatsby and it's acted out in, I can't even tell you how clever it is in terms of theater. Yeah. Because sometimes they're doing things ahead of the, just a lot of. little bit ahead of the narration. And sometimes, you know, it's just this exchange between acting and the reading that is electrifying.

I just loved it. And it made me love that book in a way that I had never experienced it before. It's interesting, isn't it? So this is the thing, because sometimes you think, what's the point of making films of things that already exist? Why can't they think of original stories? Why make plays? We could all just read The Great Gatsby.

But I guess the idea is to make, to allow people to connect with it in a different way. If you have a director and a vision, reading, we're all our own director. We focus on what we want to focus on. We see it how we want to. We cast it from our own familiarity and those kind of things. Decorate it. University of Sussex. But when you go and watch someone else's version, you go, oh, this is what you read.

Yeah. You know, Wuthering Heights is quite a good example. I haven't seen Wuthering Heights. Also, I don't think I've read it. So I've got, but seeing people's opinions because it was so different to the way they've read it. And it was a director allowing themselves to go, I'm not trying to recreate a book. I'm trying to tell you a story. story, which is what I read.

Yes. Isn't that interesting? It is. And someone's version of the Great Gatsby then allowed you into the book. Yeah. In a way that now you love it so much. And, yeah, there was so much in there that, I mean, you know, I mean, I'm a big fan of reading. And so I don't know why I didn't, I don't know.

I had been a long time since I'd read the Gate and Great Gatsby anyway. But I was amazed at how current it was. Yeah. How it deals with racism and obviously class. Yeah. In such a fresh way, really. It's shocking. Oh, that's amazing.

How do you write when there is no deadline? Like, how do you get yourself to that desk when like no one's making you? It's tough. I mean, every day is tough. It never gets easy. The only time it's easy is when you feel like you're on the scent of something and you're just. But even then you get all excited and then you get there and you're like, oh. I don't feel like writing today.

Yeah. So a lot of bad days, a lot of, a lot of, a lot of kind of self-forgiveness because I didn't write or, you know, it didn't go well. That's just the way it is, you know. Are we allowed to ask what's next or are you don't want to talk about it yet? That's fine. Oh, you don't. Yeah, well, I'm just researching right now. I think it'll take place in the 60s.

Although what I think I'm writing on book tour is never what I actually end up writing. So take it with that. So the people always be like, she lied to me. I asked a question. The hate festival. She lied to my face. This could be what your brain's protecting you with. Yeah.

And then you get home and you're like, I can't write this. Yeah. Yeah. I need to write what Yash was like when he was by himself without her. Is that a suggestion, Lily? What happened when he got to Atlanta? I would tell you who I'd feel for the women in between. Yeah.

When that girl says on the date, who the fuck is Jordan? Yeah. like meeting a guy and not really and they're not telling you that much and so you don't know how broken they are. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's so interesting. And yes, she's such a charmer and you'd have a nice day, but you'd be like, I didn't really. Desmond Morris had this whole thing about pair bonding. And so what happens is pair bonding is supposed to be huge and it's supposed to be for life because, you know, it's supposed to be for children to survive in terms of evolution. So what happens is someone has their heartbroken, but then we live in a society which can sort of propels you to move on as quickly as possible.

relatively quickly. Yeah, yeah. But you're not emotionally ready. So then you break someone's heart and then they break someone's heart and so you have this like... With Desmond Morris okay? It sounds like Desmond Morris had a bad breakup.

This is before Tinder. This is when you could only meet people. When you met them, you had to meet them. But he was like, this society just littered with broken hearts because people can't actually offer attachment because they haven't healed from the last attachment.

I think Desmond Morris has a ex-scarfriend. People don't tend to really sort of quote or talk about Desmond Morris. In many ways, but it's interesting that people don't have long years and years after loving someone. Yeah. They go out and date and you're supposed to meet another person and then it's okay. I think that's true for like Georgian Times, someone who hangs out in Jordan Times quite a lot. Like, you would, some people would remarry very quickly.

And some people wouldn't. Like, I think it's quite human. Yeah. Also, it's economic. They'd know where to live. Yeah. But some women would be like, I'm not doing it. Another woman would be like, well, it's been two weeks.

I need to marry someone. Yeah. And Queen Victoria for the really, really long morning. Yeah. Yeah. And what about the guy? Like, you know the guy in his 20s who got his heart really badly broken like at 19 or 20 and then doesn't date until 30. You know, like, there does seem like there are some people. That's true. Really like nurse it. Yeah. Yeah. And then they can take their time because they're a guy. And so then when the time they're 40, they're like, I just met her. Is she 25? Exactly. She is. And you're like, all right. Okay. Exactly. But what's my sort of first boyfriend, my my first love, my first love, my. My first love, my. equivalent maybe of Casey and Yash,

I still would say I've never loved like that again because now I love with an awareness of ending and that's what you don't have the first time. Exactly. And you can't recreate that. I mean, how amazing the person is, you can't not know that. I know, it's a particular kind of complete openness

that you just don't get again. Because you have just a least a little sheen of that. A passage of you with one little foot outside or some perspective. And that's why it burns on to you, you know. And that's why we're talking about friends you make when you're up. Because it's like, you're just like, this is it. This is great. Lily, we could talk to you all day.

Yeah, we love your time. Because you have to wrap it up because you have to go into other things. Thank you for writing it and for all of your writing. Thank you so much. You are so much for having me. It's really been an honor. Thank you for listening to The Weirdo's Book Club. Heart the Lover is out now.

My Kids Book, Where Did She Go? A Kids Picture Book about grief is available to buy and pay. back now. We have a live show coming up at the Edinburgh Book Festival on the 17th of August, and I'm doing a big live show in Edinburgh on the 5th of August, if you fancy that at the Fringe Festival. You can find out all about the upcoming books we're going to be discussing on our Instagram at Sarah and Carrie AdWoodo's Book Club. And please join us on Patreon. It's a great way to support the podcast and we've started posting stuff on there. We're doing videos to help. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you.