Sara & Cariad's Weirdos Book Club - Honeybee by Dawn O'Porter with Dawn O'Porter

Episode Date: October 10, 2024

This week's book guest is Honeybee by Dawn O'Porter.Sara and Cariad are joined by the best-selling author, presenter and co-founder of Choose Love, Dawn O'Porter to discuss a room of one's own, temping, reply all, ambition and periods.Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you!Honeybee is available to buy here.You can find Dawn on Instagram @hotpatooties Tickets for the live show at the Southbank Centre with special guest Harriet Walter are available to buy here!Cariad’s children's book The Christmas Wish-tastrophe is available to pre-order now.Sara’s debut novel Weirdo is published by Faber & Faber and is available to buy here.Cariad’s book You Are Not Alone is published by Bloomsbury and is available to buy here.Follow Sara & Cariad’s Weirdos Book Club on Instagram @saraandcariadsweirdosbookclub and Twitter @weirdosbookclub Recorded and edited by Naomi Parnell for Plosive.Artwork by Welcome Studio.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I'm Sarah Pasco. Hello, I'm Carriad Lloyd. And we're weird about books. We love to read. We read too much. We talk too much. About the too much that we've read. Which is why we've created the Weirdo's Book Club.

Join us. A space for the lonely outsider to feel accepted and appreciated. A place for the person who'd love to be in a real book club, but it doesn't like wine or nibbles. Or being around other people. Is that you? Join us. Check out our Instagram at Sarah and Carriads Weirdo's Book Club. for the upcoming books we're going to be discussing.

You can read along and share your opinions. Or just skulk around in your raincoat like the weirdo you are. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you. This week's book guest is Honeybee by Dornow Porter. What's it about? It's about two young girls coming back to the island of Guernsey where they grew up as kids

and discovering they have a lot more growing up still to do. What qualifies it for the weirdos book club? Well, there's some very interesting advice about how to do your own bikini wax that maybe should not be followed. In this episode we discuss. room of one's own. Temping. Reply all.

Ambition. Grief. And periods. And joining us this week is Dawn O'Porter. Dawn O'Porter is an author and presenter. She has written nine books including best-selling novels, The Cows, So Lucky, Cat Lady, and her non-fiction title, Life and Pieces. She's also the co-founder and director of the amazing charity Choose Love, and she designs

dresses for Joanie Clothing, and Honeybee is her latest novel. Welcome, Dawn O'Porter. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for coming. Thank you. Thank you for having. Thank you for having us I was about to say.

That's not how it works. I do have some questions, though. Ask away. Thank you so much for coming on the show. That's what I was trying to say. Dawn has written nine books. Prolific. One a year almost?

Yeah, probably one every couple of years. And I'd love to get to one a year. Would you? Yeah. I think life hasn't really been very accommodating of that with all the children and the things. But now I feel like that's what I'm going to be. for. How do you juggle it all? How do I juggle it all? Because you do so many things.

You design clothes, you have your substack, you give a lot to people who follow you on Patreon. So how do you manage that, writing a full-length book as well? The key to it that I discovered is doing a full 9-to-5. And as long as I get like a 9-to-5, five days a week, everything gets done. And one of the real key elements to that and my kind of success of how much I've managed to get done over the past year is having my office. Do you have a room of your own? I have a room of my own.

And I literally wrote an article, Financial Times, yesterday, about having a room of my own. Because I first read that book by Virginia Woolf in my early 20s. The quote is, a woman must have money and a room of her. own if she is to write fiction. The reality is that's not true. You can write fiction wherever you are if you put your mind to it, but it really fucking helps to have a room of your own. And it was only when we moved back to London from California last year that I felt that I could invest in myself in that way. It always just felt a bit selfish. Yeah, indulgent, doesn't it? Like, oh, I don't need an office. I can just write on this table here.

So here's the thing about that. Anybody who has a normal job goes to an office and you have a workplace for productivity reasons. And for some reason, we don't think we deserve that as a writer. It's the best investment. Some months it's really scary because I can't afford the rent still. And it's like, oh, God, what have I done? And yet having that place and how productive it makes me earns me money in itself because I get more work done.

So even on those months where it's a bit scary, I still know regrets and make it work. But it's wonderful. So it's about 10 minute walk from my house. I've got to be near the house. Yeah, but it's nice enough either cycle there a walk, which is a really nice kind of wake up in the morning. I get dressed, I put my eye makeup on, I act like I'm going to an office full of 50 people,

and I really crack on, and that's how I juggle it all. When I don't get my, when my 9 to 5 is interfered with, or like right now, because I'm, you know, doing lots of book publicity, so I'm not even trying to write right now. But when that gets messed with, like the kids are real or something happens, where I can't get that time, that's when it all starts falling apart. And it's very stressful. It's very stressful and we don't have a nanny anymore.

And so, you know, the kids finish most days at 3.30. So when Chris is home, it's great because he can do all of that. When he's away, like he is a lot, I can struggle and get very overwhelmed. But in answer to your question, it's a lot. And I do have multiple meltdowns, especially around times of deadline. Yeah. And somehow it always just gets done. So do you like having a lot on?

I do. I think I don't. And so I try to like. I try to clear my diary and then I find myself sending emails that are quite pitchy. I literally the other day was like, I'm so just got an absolute deadline and then sent this message to someone being like, do you want me to write this? And they were like, I could have a Zoom with you next week, booked it in. Yeah, great. And I thought, what are you doing? Yeah. And it's because I could feel my adrenaline going down. It was like, I think I might be able to write this on time actually.

And so my body went, what would really fuck this up? Yeah, that's exactly what happens. Let's get that adrenaline up because it's like you need the adrenaline at 90, not 100, to do the other thing. So then you think, well, I better put something in place to get that. So is it like fuel? Yeah, you're overstacking your own plate. Yeah, yeah. Because then you know, then you'll be overwhelmed, which will make you go, do know what, I really do need to finish that book. But if the plate's empty, well, I'm not going to finish that book.

Yeah, too much time in a day isn't great when you're creative, I don't think. So yes, I do. I like being busy. I like having a lot of projects on. And, but I am also getting really good at saying no. I know what I don't want to do. I don't like being away from my desk. I love being at my desk.

So I try and do as much as I can. I'm happy for that 95 or 90 or 330, depending on who's picking up the kids, to be solid jam-packed full. That's fine. That's a good day for me. But when someone says, you need to be away from your desk

when I've got a writing deadline, not quite today. For a few hours, then I get a bit jumpy. I like that. I like to be doing everything from there. Yeah, that's like the safety pit, isn't it? It's like that's the way you're driving the car. you've got to be at the desk doing the thing.

And if you're distracting yourself, that's different. But if someone's taking you away from that, you sort of know, I am supposed to be driving right now. So in terms of, so it seems like your brain is really good at compartmentalising. You can do one task and then do another one. So with a novel, so with Honeybee, when you were writing your last book, Cat Lady, did Honeybee exist in a sort of, sort of germ stage or did it not exist at a tall? A larvae.

A larvae. Thanks, thanks. A little egg. Yeah, yeah. Did it exist in some form? Was it in your peripheral imagination or not at all until Cat Lady was done? Well, the funny thing about this book is that I wrote the first draft in 2018 before I'd written So Lucky or Cat Lady. And at the time, it was with a different publisher who had bought the rights for the next two books years and years and years ago. But then I got offered and it was quite like in terms of deals, quite a small deal. So I wasn't a very well-known

meister at the time. And then after that I got that and those two books were in place, Harper Collins then swooped in and gave me these, you know, grown-up book deals for the cows so lucky and Cat Lady and Life of Pieces. And so they kind of took over. And then my kind of, I guess my, my, what would be the word, my success changed. And so that there's these two little books, you know, what is now Honeybee, just kept getting put on a back burner. And I said, I've got to get back to them at some point. So you had sort of, so you'd written subsequent books become much more successful, but you still owed the original.

I still owed the original. Yes. Oh, gosh. So then what happened? So I wrote a kind of blasted out a draft in 2018, and I'm not joking with you. I have no recollection of writing that book. I can't remember writing it.

But I do remember calling an old school friend who had one of the issues that there is in the book and interviewing her about, her to kind of help me, you know, draw the character. But I can't remember where I was, what was happening. And then I think I must have just banked it. Yeah. And written so lucky. And then the pandemic happened and, you know, the world went mad.

So it was just a really odd thing. Then December of last year, I was writing a different book. And it just wasn't happening. It just wasn't working. And I've never done this before, but I just had to say to my publisher, have to abandon this. I'm really sorry, but this book just isn't going to come out next year.

And they had recently, oh, this is boring story. It's not actually fascinating. It's really interesting, like how books get to me born. Also, you might think this is admin, but I'm watching you thinking about a creative person. You've been birthing these books so easily.

Yeah. When one isn't coming, you know this isn't. Like my fear would be to put out something that wasn't, that would just be such a horrible feeling. That would disappoint my readers when we've just got this lovely relationship now. That would just be a horrible thing.

do. And I knew that's what was going to happen. So I said to my publisher, I'm really sorry, I just can't, I can't do this. And weirdly, a few months before, they had bought out the other publisher for this deal to do the next running and flow book, but for one book. And I said, I think I wrote that. Went through my files. Found a 70,000 word manuscript, that had written in 2018 and basically forgotten about. And, um, my God. You're like, thanks past me. You were. So I was like, do you mind if I swap the deals around and that we, you know, we redo that book?

It was all set in London and it had a lot of things wrong with it, but it had the bones. Yeah, the friendship. Yes. And then it was still the same characters from the two previous books. And it just felt right. And Harper Collins were amazing and said, let's do that. And so I rewrote it, edited it and finished it like probably three months ago. And now it's coming out next month.

So that's a kind of a really extraordinary. creative process that was that's never happened before but you know it's really good to have like a little manuscript in your back pocket for a rainy day also so good for people who I think that's so good for people who listen to this often write as well as being amazing readers and to know like you can write something and it not nothing happen with the inverted commas and you think oh what was the point of that and feeling like you never waste time writing yeah noodling away writing is never a waste of your skills you'll either learn and get better or you never know like oh those people could come in here you can revisit things yeah sometimes we do things you're like

oh what was the point of that no one's never going to see it no you go back and read it and you know there's always something in it yeah and that's the thing about writing is that you know writer's block is very real some people say it isn't it's very real it's really frustrating and you just can't get anything and you the only way to get out of writer's block is to write through it even if what you're writing you think is shit it doesn't matter it gives you something to go back over which will eventually turn into the right thing and um and that's you know there's kind of there's that have ever heard of morning pages in the artist's way. It's so boring.

And every writer hates doing it. It's, you've got to unlock something in your head. And so, yeah, I think it's what, you know, writers, most writers, I think the more you write, the more you do, most writers do what I do and you have your day. You know, you're very disciplined and organized. And also, let's not be like, let's be honest, if I don't write, don't get paid. Yeah.

You have to write through writers' block and get it done. But when when writers are honest about the process, it's always a bit of a scramble. It's always hard, I think. But I also find it's quite interesting that if 2018 to 2024, that's six years, you know, so much can change a person. Yeah. So much life. And the unknown pandemic.

Exactly. No one would have thought that in 2018. So the writer you are now, it will be a very different book than if you had done three drafts of it in 2018. So much so. You've got, that's what you've got to trust that it will happen when it happens. So I'm going to go back now to the book that I banned in December. Because I really love it. It just wasn't coming.

And now, having walked away from it for that long, I've got my notes on my phone are now full for it. Like I've just, it's all come to me and I'll go back to it with this kind of clarity. And I think it will be brilliant. And I'm really excited about it. But it just, I couldn't force it when it was happening. But no, you never, never delete anything. Always keep everything. That body of work is really important.

I interviewed Jacqueline Wilson the other night. I saw. Yeah. I was so, I was like, oh, what an amazing job to interview her. It was honestly one of the loveliest evenings and so inspiring. And it was, you know, a good thousand women turned up to listen to her. Oh my gosh. Or to both of you.

It was like how, it was like she was Beyonce. Yeah. And she is in certain circles. And people, and what was lovely about, she's written over 100 books. Not all of them have been published. And, you know, some of them, she says, I'll never do anything with. They're literally physical manuscripts up in the loft, which is just so romantic and gorgeous. But all of those, all of those books that she wrote that never got published all got her to the book that did, you know, that came next.

It's all just so important to just keep going. But she's an amazing woman. She's such a lovely person. And, you know, we had an hour together. And I said to her beforehand, I've obviously got my questions, but I think we have to give these women chance to connect with you and do as many questions as possible. And it was really emotional. Like she really, you know, brought people up. And there were, you know, so many people who kind of put their hands up and they're shaking.

Like, you changed my life. I was had a really difficult childhood and your books got me through it. And I was like, this is an incredible career. Now, other people might see, you know, have different icons. But she is such. Oh, she's incredible. That is why people write books and that's what books mean to people. Yeah.

We all have books that, you know, if that author was to have an event and we were to put our hand up, would be trembling a little bit. As you say, you've got so many fans now. I mean, how does that feel? It feels really nice. And they're so different from fans. I think readers and fans are completely different. And because my husband is quite famous,

I see the difference between readers and fans all the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's do a distinction. So a fan, oh, my God, oh, my God, oh, go, go, go, are you famous? Can I get a selfie? Can I selfie? A reader comes up, puts the hand on your arm and says, that book meant a lot to me.

I loved your book. So is Chris jealous of you. I think there's a place for both. Luckily everyone, you know, everyone adores Chris. Everyone's so lovely and it's all very nice. But I am really glad that's not my knife. You know, I get more people coming up and connecting with me than I do being asked for pictures. I don't mind doing selfies at all.

It's really lovely. But I feel that there is like there's just this understanding. And, you know, my books are odd. Yeah, you write such brilliant weirdos. Yes. Our podcast is for weirdos in books. And, yeah, all of your characters fit happily into our club. I'm so pleased.

And I do. And I think sometimes when I kind of, I finished a book, I'm like, God, that woman is, you know, so strange. But I feel her so in my soul. And I'm like, these women are, they are strange, but they exist. And it's really nice to have that. So I tap into a different kind of woman. Like, they're not big mainstream characters and big mainstream books. my books have, I think I've reached the peak of where I'm going to go. I'm very comfortable here. I'm not

trying really to expand and find new readers. I think I've found my crew. And they understand those characters and really like them. And never would I be like, I have to make my, I have to give my books broad appeal or like make my characters more mainstream. So that would ruin everything. And I, I think my readers really get that. But that does remind me of Jacqueline Wilson. And it does remind me of creating characters that, like, yeah, the weirdos or the, there's a group of us who can relate to, and that's what we did as teenagers, right? You found the book when you were like, oh my God, that's how I feel, I feel like I don't fit in. I feel like my brain isn't working in the right way. And that's what books allow you to do. And what you're discussing with readers and fans is, like,

to be a reader requires time and attention and concentration. And that's a very different conversation between a writer and a reader than like an actor and a fan, because you could not even see a film and still be like, oh my God, I love that person. Totally. I saw them once in an advert and I loved it. Whereas a reader, it's like, I sat with you, Dawn, and I sat with these in your head. It's a huge, it's a huge, you know, reading is

challenging in many ways, we were very busy. It's like for someone to have actually taken the time to, and then buy it, you know, taking the time to finish that book and then to have spent that money on it is a very different transaction from when you just kind of sit down and watch TV. And, you know, having, I used to be on TV

quite a lot, so I've also felt the difference in when you're on TV, you need to please everybody. You need people who might not be into you to be into you because you need to have this kind of broad appeal. And with writers, that's just gone. It's such a lovely intimate relationship. And I just, I wouldn't have it any other way. You can also relax, I think, that you said,

because you can be very truthful to yourself without a thing like, that's the bit that's not okay. I can't, that's too mad to say, that's too weird. Whereas that you said, you can write weirdos and no one's like, can that woman be more normal because it's going out on BBC 1 at 7 o'clock. It's like you don't need to worry about that. Exactly. Also the thing about I think fiction is becoming more and more and more important

because of cancel culture and how afraid everyone is to step outside the box and be interesting. Artists should have so much freedom to be so many things and say things and be flawed and take risks. And now that is becoming a very scary space to be in. So artists are becoming quite boring. and fiction is where you don't get to be boring. Well, the trouble with council culture is that so much of media is now disseminated to things are taken out of context.

It's quite hard to do that with the novel. Yeah. Because it's all context. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's this remove of, so you could take one line out of someone's book, but you would have to say, well, that way, a character said to it. Yes, exactly. And then he was being ironic and he was quoting something. Yeah.

We should talk about honey, you're so interested about writing, but it's such a wonderful book. It's so brilliant. And like all of your books, the second I started it, I needed to know what was going to happen. Oh, you're such a good page turner. There was always a page turn. And there was a point where I was like, I'm reading it like it's a crime thriller. I don't think anyone's going to get murdered. Yeah, calm down.

Yeah, they've just moved into a house. Calm down. You do listen to a lot of crime podcasts, perhaps you remember. But it's because I don't know people like this. I mean, so it wasn't like, oh, that's so and so and so. but I immediately knew them and cared what was going to happen. Yeah, yeah. It's beautiful and it's such a beautiful betrayal of female friendship.

Yeah. And what you put up with from your friends. She means me. I'm right here. I'm right here. This is very difficult for me, Dawn. Thank you. Thank you for allowing me.

No, it sounded point if it wasn't. And I think it's what's nice about this book? I used to live with Carriage and her mom and I did drink a lot. You wouldn't know, it wasn't the drinking. Was it a mug of champagne which I saw you talking about the other day, which I loved. No, that's since she's had children. Yeah, that's drinking at five o'clock. Celebrated.

I'm right there with you, don't. No, what I loved is that I think sometimes when we see film our friendships, or especially maybe in films, it's like there's the crazy one and the sensible one. And we know in a film like the crazy one's going to cause the plot and the sensible one's going to help the plot resolve. Yeah. And what I liked here is that they both have quite a lot of issues. Renee and Flo.

And they're both dealing with such stuff. And it did, you know, they're 22 when the book is set in 2001. And it did really remind me of, like, being your early 20s. And these things feel huge. And insurmountable. Like, how are we going to get jobs? How are we going to exist? I know.

Like, it's such a scary prospect. It's like the rest of your life. September, no one offers you something to do anymore. It's like, September means nothing. You've just got to kind of fill all of this time and get on with your life. And this fantasy of I want to be in a different place. Like I, that's the character I relate to is, I'll live in London and be a writer. She's not even been to London.

And that's exactly the kind of plan I'd have made based on nothing but like self-belief. Yeah, I know. The self-belief of, it's Renee, isn't it? Yeah, self-belief of Renee is lovely. And why shouldn't she at 22 believe that like she's going to go to Sunday and be a right? Because nothing in life has taught her that there's not possible. Yeah. And I think, yeah, you really capture that, that 22-year-old sense of panic but also freedom.

Yes. Because they don't have responsibilities. You know, they haven't got, like you said, got to make this deadline otherwise, how am I going to pay this? There is such freedom in that. The way they're just cycling around Guernsey and meeting up for chips. I know. I was like, oh, do you want to do? I'm meet up for chips.

That's your day. Like I said, not like, 9 to 5, pick up the kids do this. It's like, no, I just meet up for chips. It was a pretty busy day. It was all so simple, wasn't it? Like back then they've just kind of got phones. So in the books previously there's not even phones, which was lovely. But now they've got, but they would have been the old Nokia that, you know, stops working when you've got 10 texts in it.

So bear in mind you're doing a 9 to 5 at your desk around all of your commitments. Was it nice to exist in a 22-year-old's world for a bit? It's really, really lovely. And because I was brought up and go and see where the books are set. And all I wanted to do is get away, just like Renee does. And it's really nice to go back and appreciate the island again through their eye. eyes and understand, you know, be honest about them not wanting to be there, but also just be romantic about Guernsey again and that kind of very simple time before it all kicked off,

you know, before I did move to London, before all these things happened, the world changed so dramatically and, you know, social media came years later and it was just, there was just this lovely moment that I wish, you know, if you could go back and just pause, be given some idea that the world is about to change so dramatically and life will never be the same again as we become so dependent on devices and the internet and it was just it was just really nice to go back there

or at least assessing where you want to be because what I so loved about the resolution without any spoilers is that part of growing up part of adolescence is I am too big for the spaces I'm in or whether it's family members or people don't really know me or see me I need to escape

and for some people that journey takes you back. Yeah. This is where I want to be. This is a really good place for this reason. I needed them break from it. It needs to be choice. Yeah.

Also, it's like if I could go, I was so success driven at that age. I was obsessed with it. Just had blinkers on. Where did that come from? I think it came from, I lost my mum when I was young and I think I had this like real burning fear that time was going to run out. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think I just had this panic that I had to get it all done.

And getting off Guernsey was imperative to that. And just, um, this kind of. kind of drive to get to where I wanted to go, which was at the time, fame maybe. It was, I wanted to be, I thought it was acting, I went to drama school, and I, you know, I thought that was what it was. It was always writing in my soul, but I kind of, that was, you know, that felt more difficult. So the goal was like, get on TV, be famous. And, you know, over the course of your career, when you've worked and your fame blurs away and

success becomes more important and success turns into just now is just like maintaining what I've achieved and doing all that and I've slowed down. I don't feel like I'm running out of time anymore. I'm already 10 years older than I was when my mum died. So it's like that kind of thing. Now I compare when I was writing that remembering how much kind of energy I had like propelling you forward all the time. It's also fast and it's all this, you know, got to get it done, got to go to on and got to do the thing, got to be successful, going to do all that, compared to now, which is just so chill in comparison. That's a wonderful journey because there's lots of people that we all know where that

fire doesn't go away and that drive that can be so constructive actually ruins. They don't ever have the enjoyment of their success. Yeah, they take stock. Yeah, because it does have to be a balance as well. All they have is fear that it's going to go. Yeah, yeah, I know a lot of people like that from living in Hollywood for a long time. Because I've sat for a lot of people. Some people who the world thinks, like some of the most successful people that you can think of,

you know, when they come over and they sit at your dining table, just with balls of anxiety that it's all going to end at any minute. It's always such an interesting conversation to have. And it's such a shame because you go, I mean, all of that unhappiness, and the whole world would think that's the only person who could be truly happy. Yeah. And it's like if they can't be happy. That's the lie, isn't it, the lie of it.

But I think it's interesting that you have self-awareness to know what was driving you. Yes. So if you have a self-awareness to know this is grief, this is a pain, and this is like, I've got a clock. And I guess what sometimes happens with young grief is, as you get nearer, you're like, oh, well, maybe I won't have this same story. So then the fire can calm because you're like, oh, I see what was driving me was this. And now actually my life is a different path.

I'm not to my mother. I'm different. Yeah. And I think if you don't have that, that's when you keep driving because you don't know why you need to be famous. No, that's very true. And I think you have to have a self-awareness of like, oh, this was to prove something. Yeah.

And I realize I don't need to. And then you can take that breath and go, oh, I do want to be a writer. Actually, that's the thing I'm trying to say. Yeah, absolutely. I've got this thing I want to say. But I think that takes, yeah, time and... It's a process for sure. A process, yeah.

And kindness to yourself to be able to go, well, you did what you needed to do. Like, you know, it wasn't wrong to have that drive. It wasn't the, like, you didn't hurt anyone by doing it. But that's what 22-year-old dawn needed to get here to get there, to get there. It's writing about someone who isn't you but has similarities. These characters, they both of the characters have lost a parent. Yeah. Youngish, yeah.

That's what they bonded over. That's what brought them together because they were so different as people. And this is the thing that, so in paper airplanes, René's mum had died previously, but Flo's dad dies in paper airplanes. And Renee almost like, she almost has this radar for trauma. She's desperate to find someone who can, you know, relate to her pain. and then this girl in her class that she's really not friends with at all, has this tragedy,

and René basically, you know, goes after her and says, you don't realize it yet, but you need me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And this kind of beautiful friendship comes off the back of this really traumatic thing. Paper airplanes, Goose and Honeybee are like therapy for me. So so much of the things that the girls go through are things that I feel

I need to vent and get out. And when you do it in fiction, you get to just really go through it and end it how you want it to end. Yeah, the ending you felt you did. And it's just such a lovely thing to do. But going back to how important writing is, even for people that aren't professional writers, writing things down is one of the best things that you can do for your soul.

And I always did it. When I was struggling as a teenager, I used to, if I had an issue with someone in my family or sometimes I did it for my mum, just to write someone a letter, never with the intention of them reading it, ever. but to write down everything you want to say. So it's obviously not as valuable as saying it, but it does shift something inside you.

Sometimes you then hear your own thoughts, just like in therapy, which obviously we all know, it can be very, very expensive and all this kind of a bit. But writing something down, you hear your thoughts, or the really amazing thing with morning pages is because you're supposed to be doing it very quickly

without filtering. You think, oh, there you are. Yeah, that's niggling at me. Yeah. Or the letter thing, I think I'm a amount of email drafts that I haven't sent. But just to write it down and then wait 10 minutes and read it and go, oh, that is too angry. Oh, okay. Oh, absolutely. I wasn't sure. And email sent in haste is dangerous. Yeah, yeah. And never put the two. Don't fill in the two. Write the email. And then you can think, discard. Is this to me again? It also doesn't need to be 2,000 words long to make my point. That's the big, like, email edit. God. Did you ever have an office job?

I did. I tempt a lot. Did you? Yeah. Very, and I always like a former temp. Yeah. And around that time, I, I tempt on reception of a marketing company in London that formed magic marketing in my head in the book. And that's René ends up on reception.

And I also did. There's a bit in the book about reply all where Renee, there's a really awkward reply all in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, um, in the. book and I that was really important for me to write because that also like Bruce says a lot about the time and technology and where we were at so I was sitting at this reception in this marketing job and I didn't know what reply or meant I thought I just didn't know so there was this other really lovely it was like my second day or something and there was a really nice office manager she was really young and really fun and she'd been really lovely to me and she sent me an email and I replied

all saying everyone here is really fucking annoying She came over in super slow motion going, Oh my God. Why did you do that? I'm like, what? What happened? She's like, you just replied to the entire office. Oh, that's what reply.

It all means, stood up, yelled, I'm only joking into the whole office. And I wanted to write something around those on that for so long. And it was just so perfect for Renee and that moment that she experienced. Hats off to you for shak. I think I would have just crawled on the floor. I only left the building. And then no one mentioned it ever. And then as I was there for a few months,

and so then the after work drinks kind of happened and there was on Friday night where someone bought it up and we all laughed about it. But it was horrible. That is really bad. It was really horrible. And I'm sure so many people have got

like good reply all moments where you just accidentally done it, especially back then just didn't realize. I don't know what I thought it meant. I was the person who would have gone to recruitment agencies. Oh yeah. That reminded me of you. Absolutely no experience,

but a lot of backing myself going, I'm just here till I meet Stephen Fry. You weren't wrong. So do you want me or not? When I was 18, I saw something on the news about how Oxbridge needed more working class people, so I applied to Cambridge. And I told them I only wanted to go so I could be in footlights. You're honest.

You're honest. Because the career ladder seemed so clear to me, and I always expected people to be so grateful to be like, oh, we needed someone really sparky, who knows their own mind. I mean, yeah. I loved about this book is like the overconfidence that you do have at 22. And that, do you remember, I remember saying things 22 and older people looking at me like, hmm. Yeah.

And I thought, what's that? What's that look? Like, why they, what? And you don't know what it is until you're old and you realize it's people going, yeah, come back to me when you've tried that great idea that you've had. I do think though, I think young people have changed a bit slightly. Yes, that's true. And because there's so much, like, there's so much, you know, leaning towards self-care and being, honest and true with yourself.

I don't think there's, back then, we were kind of almost, ambition was, but ambition was so important. Every time we're growing up, talk to me, like, what are you going to do? Where are you going to go? What are you going to be? And it was just, you always kind of had to have an answer. And now, I think young people are given a bit more of a, you'll work it out, you know, less pressure.

I have a friend who runs a PR agency and she was moaning about, this makes me sound so old, which was only about younger people and how they work. And one of the people she'd taken on as an intern only would be contacted via Snapchat. Wow. Because she found email too interesting. So mad, isn't it? And I was like, yeah, because you're right.

We were brought up with like, but when and how are you going to do this? And also, we got brought up with a toxic work culture being completely normal. And sometimes when I hear about some of the complaints about toxic work cultures, my friend of the other, they had another one who said she just couldn't, she couldn't cope with contact on a Monday. Wow. It was just too much after the weekend. And I was like, what you're doing?

she's like we're not contacting her on Mondays and I was like wow I'm gonna I'm I'm getting use that like if that's it's sort of like you when you learn permission does it's like I didn't know we could do that I didn't know we could say that because I grew up on you have to just be there just get on with it I was like oh maybe I've just not available on Mondays so we're living in a time where if you voice up your problem like I don't like talking to people on Mondays once it's out there has to be dealt with yeah yeah yeah yeah and everything has to be taken seriously and look I'm really glad we live in a time of people's mental health is being taken care of better. I think that's really wonderful. And I'm glad there's so much more conversation than that people,

especially young people, feel empowered to speak up in the workplace. I think that's absolutely brilliant and should be encouraged at all times. But sometimes I'm like, fuck off, get grew up. Well, I'm sticking with no talking Mondays. One thing that I love about the book that I loved writing was they think that at some point this switch is going to flick and they're going to be an adult and they're going to have everything under control. And then you've got Auntie Joe in the book, who's René's Auntie, who didn't have children. And, you know, you know, she talks about that, but she's in relationship and she's kind of hitting perimenopause. And I love, there's a couple of scenes I really love where René's kind of sitting there going,

God, it's like, I just want to be grown up, so I've got everything under control. And she looks at Aunt Jo's this icon, and then Aunt Jo like burns herself on the hot fat, you know, and she's a mess. But that's the woman that I relate to in the book of like, I, you know, I've got many aspects of my life under control in many ways. But my house is a mess. I left my bedroom the other day, and I turned back and I was like, What the fuck am I doing? Like there's clothes everywhere.

But you've got so many clothes, Dawn. I don't know how you'd ever be able to contain them. Do you know what? It's in my house, my wardrobe is tiny. My wardrobe is tiny and I just rotate it because then I go to my office where it's basically a vintage shop. So I've seen a picture on Instagram. So all the rails of clothes, that's your office, is it? Yeah, so one half of it is, you know, I've done it like a vintage shop.

And the other half is where I write. I do like five or six out for changes a day. And this is the dream. And so I just have this kind of rotating, depending on the weather, capsule situation at home. Just at home. Easy. Like the school run clothes, the weekend. I'll put whatever on in the morning and then I'll go to my office and put something great on. And that's kind of how it works.

But it's like my dirty secret. So you're changing during the 9 to 5? I changed quite a lot during the 9 to 5. Well, that'll be my procrastination. So I need a break. I'll get up and just use my outfits. So that would be, because I will get up. up and do some cleaning.

Like, that's my, like, go-to. This is also why you have to get out the house. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that is. But also I've accepted that it's a part of my process. Yeah. And once I've cleaned something, you think. I think and also what I've done is made something make sense. So I think can go back to a page and go, you know how to.

Yeah, it's definite. Yeah, it's definite. Yeah, it's definite. Yeah, I've got ADHCII. Yeah, I've got ADDGY. Yes, doing a task. Yes. It gives you the dopamine to do the other task.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And also you go, hey, look at me. this was dirty now it's clean you could go and write that chapter you can do anything you're someone who can sort out a mess go and deal with them and it's like my brain goes

yeah yeah so for you you want yeah you're like a change you're your own dolly I am my own dolly I get um Are you sitting in a ball gown I know but wear a lot of caftans Oh okay comfy yeah yeah

I might get there in like in this kind of thing like jeans and jumper I might get there and then I really there's something about wearing something while I'm writing wearing something really good that I really like And also having my, I cried all my eye makeup from the way here. I'm not upset about anything, but I'm hung over in my eyes water so much when I'm hung over.

But on a normal day where I haven't been up until midnight drinking Prosecco, I put lots of eye makeup on. And for some reason that's like, it's really important to my day. Yeah. And it's like a uniform. It's a uniform. So I'm like full glam sitting there on my own all day, which I love. That's nice because you do have such amazing collection of clothes. and the thing with great outfits is,

often you don't get to wear them. You're like, that is an incredible outfit. When will I ever, but to give it a life for a chapter? It's so true. And also you spend a lot of time on your own, like, I don't go in anywhere to work. So when do all those clothes get made? Half of them don't fit anymore,

which is really annoying, which is why I love the kaff tans. You are the kaff tans, yeah. But I love to hear about it, because the writer's routines are so addictive and interesting. And I just love, like, so Hemingway would start, you know, drinking at 11 cocktails at two. I just don't know. I just love the difference.

But it all supports someone's creativity because 9 to 5 is a long time to be working. Yes, it is. Yeah, yeah. That's exhausting. Do you eat snacks? I eat all day long. Yeah.

I got an air fry. I got an air fry in the office. I don't want at home. Why are you going home? So I buy ingredients. I eat loads of tofu and I love. Tofu in the air fire is just the most amazing thing. So I put yesterday

I emptied a bag of kale into the air fry and put slices of tofu on top and just waxed in it just came out as like crispy kale with just really delicious tofu and I make myself stuff like that and I eat a lot of I love dips

lots of dips going on Cruditate crisps You're having a 70s party while you're writing I am I'm like five minutes away from an avocado dip of the avocado moose at all times

You've got a little bowl you just put your own keys in. I'll take those. Thank you, Dawn. Going home by myself. Yes. I've also got in my office my dead stuff cat. I'd say good morning to it every day.

And it's lovely. I absolutely love it. And I also have a tortoise and who, I rescued a tortoise last year and he's not been very well. So he couldn't hibernate. I had to feed him medicine on a strawberry like for two months over the winter. Taking him to the vet on Monday to see if he's well enough to hibernate this year. And if he's not,

I'm going to keep him in my office all winter. because it's really nice and warm in there. And he like comes over and he'll just like fall asleep between my feet. And he hears my voice and he charges over. And so I, it is a bit of a mad, a mad space with. You are, you are you? I feel like I'm reading a Vanity Fair article about Joan Collins or something. Like it's like, and then I go and do a film.

If I was reading this about someone I didn't know though, I'll be like, they're making it up to be interested. No, but I believe it. I believe it. Also I did a cat wall behind me. So my Zoom background is just all framed pictures of cats. And I, with my, because I have a charity called Choose Love and I have to do some quite heavy Zoom sometimes about the refugee crisis. And so I'm like technologically challenged, I can't even say it.

I don't know how to like blur the background to all these things. And so sometimes I'll just be on the Zoom and I'll just be like, this is silly. I look really silly. Yeah, but it's good. Like you're like you are dealing with heavy things and you are trying to write about heavy things and truth. that why not have like this background that helps you and supports that creativity? And I think what a lot of people find hard to do is allow themselves permission to play, which is what you've given yourself.

Like you go and play in that space. And I think a lot of people go, I don't deserve it. It's self-indulgent. No, I'm just going to sit at like the corner of the kitchen table that's covered in washing up and clothes it needs folding. And that's really hard to be creative in that space. So why not give yourself permission to visit Abigail's party? Exactly. Just every day.

One round. Stuff we haven't even talked about because I want to talk about the importance of like bodily functions of people having bodies and their bodies being in it and embarrassing things being okay and I can't stop thinking about your description of your period I'm just like oh there it is

because I was like my period is never like that sorry not yours Renee's. Sorry yours it felt like that when Renee just like it just arrives she's so confident about it was I'm someone who's constantly having to go to the loom

like is it no it happened to me on a job last week you know I'm 43 I really thought I was past the time I would never pass this bullshit. Being filmed and I could feel it. And then I had to go and speak to costume about washing my trousers. Oh, God, the blob.

When you feel the blob seeping out. That's the trouble with menstruating. I know. You're not in charge of it. I know. It fucking changes. It changes all the time. Yeah.

Oh, I know what my period does. It does something different. I know we're about to stop. But did it feel very important to you to write a perimenopausal character? It did in terms of, I just, if you're going to write about women, around that age to act like that thing might not be happening is just not real. And so I feel, I don't know about you, I'm only 45, I don't know if I've hit it yet. I'm not, I haven't had periods of years because I've got an IUD, so I've got no idea what's

going on. I don't feel particularly hormonally unbalanced. I feel totally fine, but I know it's around the corner and it's all anyone talks about. I literally cough and someone would say, perimenopause. It's your drug, right? My eyes are watering this morning. I'm like, no, I just drank four bottles of Prosecco last night. Stop it.

Perry, Perry. It's Perry, Perry. But suddenly it's all only one to talk about. And back then, another thing is no one talks about it. I don't think I knew what menopause was until my late 20s. Like, no one talks about it. So I wanted to put it in to what would it be like being a woman at then, where you're going through this huge transformation,

and there's just no literature on it, and you've got no idea, and you've got to talk to your husband about this really unsexy thing that's going on with you. And the lack of internet, because what the internet did was create communities, where, you know, same with mental health, with grief, with menopause, that we could all find each other very quickly and go, me to, me to, me too. And in 2001, like, you had to sit with stuff and just go, I might be the only person in the world. This might be weird.

Yeah, absolutely. To me. Yeah, and Auntie Joe, what she's going through is, yeah, I really, it's terrible, isn't it, as all female history of like, oh, just thinking that you're the only person that was happening to you, having no idea that is, no, that's menopause, it's completely normal. It's tragic. Yeah, I remember that feeling about so many,

things so clearly that there was just no access to other people. And then you realize you look back and go, God, there would have been like people all around me going through the same thing. It's mad. Taylor Swift will be singing about it now. Yes. I love the scene in the book where there's a moment about vagina flaps. Oh, yes.

Yeah, yes. And I love that bit so much because, well, I don't want to give it away because it's just, but it's such a great moment of like that when you think you're different. and it takes a really good friend to let you know that you're not. Yeah. Have you been that really good friend? I was that friend. I did it for a friend of mine.

She was really panicking about it and so I showed her. But also, you're a good woman. It's exhilarating to have someone's shame just disappear and evaporating. Yes, absolutely. Yeah, and again, the power of female friendship, when you have that with someone where you can bear all and be like, is this weird? And someone will be like, no, I don't think so.

See, this is why it's so important for women to be disruptive and speak up and talk about themselves because it's always helpful. Yes. And to have women brought up in a time when you didn't see much, that's why women like Nora Ephron were just so important. Women who are actually properly sharing, I mean, now it's everywhere, women are sharing everything.

If anything too much. A little bit too much, maybe, but there's very little that isn't, there is not. Give the horrible guy in the office at trial. Yeah, exactly. There's very little that we're not sharing now, but it wasn't very long ago with that. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's amazing. What a brilliant note to end on. Annie B is out now. It's such a lovely book.

It's really funny. Thank you so much, Dawn. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening to the Weirdo's Book Club. Tickets for our live show with our very special guest, Harriet Water. It's part of the London Literature Festival on sale now. Go to the Southbank Centre or plociv.com. My novel Weirdo and Carriad's book, You Are Not Alone, are both out in paperback and available to get whenever you like. And my children's book, the Christmas wistastastrophe, is available to buy from today. Head to your bookshop now.

Find out all about the upcoming books we're going to be discussing on our Instagram at Sarah and Carriads Weirdo's Book Club. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you.