Sara & Cariad's Weirdos Book Club - Monsters: A Fan's Dilemma by Claire Dederer with Winnie M Li

Episode Date: January 18, 2024

This week's book guest is Monsters: A Fan's Dilemma by Claire Dederer.Sara and Cariad are joined by acclaimed author and activist Winnie M Li, who's debut novel Dark Chapter won the Guardian’s book of the year, to discuss art, nuance, Red Dwarf, power, zero tolerance and feeling 'urpy'. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you!Trigger warning: In this episode we discuss rape, abuse, antisemitism and racism.Monsters: A Fan's Dilemma by Claire Dederer is available to buy here or on Apple Books here.Complicit by Winnie M Li is available to buy here or on Apple Books here.You can find Winnie on Instagram: and Twitter: @winniemli and her website: winniemli.comTicket for the live show on Thu 25 Jan at Foyles, Tottenham Court Road are available to buy here.Sara’s debut novel Weirdo is published by Faber & Faber and is available to buy here.Cariad’s book You Are Not Alone is published by Bloomsbury and is available to buy here.Follow Sara & Cariad’s Weirdos Book Club on Instagram @saraandcariadsweirdosbookclub and Twitter @weirdosbookclub Recorded and edited by Naomi Parnell for Plosive.Artwork by Welcome Studio.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Sarah Pasco. Hello, I'm Carriad Lloyd. And we're weird about books. We love to read. We read too much. We talk too much. About the too much that we've read. Which is why we've created the Weirdos Book Club.

Join us. A space for the lonely outsider to feel accepted and appreciated. A place for the person who'd love to be in a real book club, but doesn't like wine or nibbles. Or being around other people. Is that you? Join us. Check out our Instagram at Sarah and Carriad's Weirdos Book Club for the upcoming books we're going to be discussing. You can read along and share your opinions.

Or just skulk around in your raincoat like the weirdo you are. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you. This week's book guest is Monsters, a fan's dilemma by Claire Dedera. What's it about? It's a non-fiction walk through all the art monsters of our times, from Polanski to Woody Allen to Miles Davis.

What qualifies it for the Weirdo's Book Club? Well, monsters are just weirdos turned bad. In this episode, we discuss art, nuance, Red Dwarf, Power. zero tolerance. And feeling irpy. And joining us this week is Winnie M. Lee. Winnie is a lauded novelist, her first novel, A Dark Chapter, One Guardian Book of the Year.

Her most recent, complicit, was released in 2022 to much acclaim, and her new novel is coming in 2025. Trigger warning, in this episode, we discuss rape, abuse, anti-Semitism and racism. Hi, Winnie. Hello. Hi, hi, guys. I'm so excited to talk about this book, which makes it seem like I haven't been excited to talk about the other books. No, but this is not, I feel like, this is big for me and you because Claire Dederer, who is, I don't, that well known here, I don't feel, she's an author. It's not like saying like Jilly Cooper.

It's not like, Julia Cooper. We feel we discovered Claire Dedera by accident. We read her earlier book. You discovered her. Love and Trouble. And then you recommended it to me. You recommended it to me, didn't you? Did I? No memory from both of us.

Someone recommended it. She wrote a book called Love and Trouble, which we felt like, we were the only people, like it was hard to get hold of. Right. And then no one now seemed to have read it. and it was kind of a memoir of her life just like being married, walking around a lake, talking to her friends. So crying all the time.

That's why I loved it. It was about getting to an age and I don't know if it was 40s. It might have been 50s and more about sort of menopausal hormones. But essentially just weeping all the time and not knowing why and then speaking to your friends and they're weeping all the time as well. Yeah. So we loved it.

So we knew Claire Dederer from that. And then we found out that she was writing Monsters, a fan's dilemma, which is about the art monsters of the past century, really, and this century. And we got very excited. We covered a lot of fiction on this podcast, but I feel like this is such a good book. We just wanted to talk about it. Yeah. And we want to talk to you about it. Yes. It fits into your... Because there's such a cross-section of topics with your own writing. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, because I think this book came out last year and obviously

it's got like a brilliant cover, right? And you're like, what is this cover? Right. But then I remember seeing the buzz about it and being like, oh, no, that's like right in my wheelhouse. Yeah. Yes. I study, but it's a non-fictional take on it. Yes. So it kind of addresses all the issues. I sort of wanted to be hinting out or addressing in my fiction. Yes. So I read it alongside complicit and it felt like two sides. It felt like one person is dealing with the thing that's made the product and how we feel about that morally. And complicit was so much about how so many people are around making something like a movie. So Polanski didn't make it by himself. There's a whole group of people around and how all of them are complicit or responsible.

for a tiny little thing and what are people aware of? And then personally, if you've been around someone like that, I mean, you're not just watching their work. And complicit is your second fiction. Yeah. Yes, you say, yeah, which is about, yes, someone working next to a kind of Weinstein figure, I suppose you could say. Weinstein he's a British version of that.

Yes, yeah. Thank you for making it. And Claire is, she discussed, she starts with Polanski. That's kind of how she gets, into this art monster. Because that's who she loves. That's her, the one that she shouldn't like anymore, but she can't quit. Yeah. So that's the thing isn't. I just can't quit, Palamity. It's feeling that you shouldn't because you know something that they've done. So do, I wanted to ask if either of you have a monster. I do and she discusses my monster, which I very much appreciated.

Who's that? David Bowie. Oh, yeah. So I have a big, big thing about David Bowie, which, like, and it's about grief, guys. What a surprise. So my dad died when I was a teenager. and what's quite common if you lose a parent when you're younger is you kind of invent this person who's sort of like your mum or dad in public. Do you sort of project onto someone? You project because it's like they're still there and they look a bit like your dad

and there's something about them that reminds you of the parent you've lost but it feels like oh they're still there. So I did that with David Bowie. It was like, well my dad is dead but David Bowie is still there because my dad loved David Bowie. So when she talks about,

I love the bit that she talks about on David Bowers. She's very defensive of David Bowers. Well, she is because, you know, she's talking about people from Roman plants Woody Allen, Miles Davis, David, she covers all of these monsters and the relationship that we have with people that we love their work despite knowing some bad stuff about them. So when I started hearing, oh, David Barry sat with those groupies, I was like, la, la, la, no, not David.

We got to that point in, you know, whenever it was a couple of years ago, and you were like, is nobody, is everybody been just sleeping with 15-year-old girl? Like, who hasn't been doing that? But isn't that interesting that that's where we got to? there's no one probably we can just with impunity go i absolutely know that they they didn't do anything that i wouldn't find morally unsound and it's come full circle to now we can write books about how it's okay to like those people even if they did those things well i mean this is why i love this book because i love that i think no you feel witty that she's not offering an answer she's just discussing that's how

like like the big thing really is what do we do about this and i do feel like she's not like this is right or this is wrong it's kind of like it's hard it's hard because they create this great work that we love or we feel what she says about David Bowie is like the weirdos need him. Those teenagers need him and that's how I felt like he was like the only person offering this, oh, there's this life where you can be weird and strange and it's okay. And then when someone's like, oh yeah, but did you know he did this? You're like, then. I didn't find out if you had a monster.

Yeah, who's your monster? I mean, it probably is Michael Jackson. Oh, interesting. And that's really, really problematic. Obviously, the whole point of this whole book is like some artists are problematic because, I mean, his music is so good. It's so good. And she talks about how ever, because music is so good and he was a pioneer.

And yet at the same time you know about all these things that you've done. So it's, you know, there's still Michael Jackson musicals, which are making huge amounts of money on stage. Like, you know, his estate is probably raking in, you know, all those royalties. And so I think it in some ways it's easier to say, okay, this person's now dead. So they themselves are not benefiting financially from me enjoying their art, right? And so that's a problem with Polanski and Woody Allen because we're all still alive. But at the same time, it's like, okay, but I do want to enjoy his music, and I can. Like, I still, you know, but at the same time, I know what he's done and there's that creepiness.

And so she talks about the stain about how, like, once you know that someone's been doing this. Yeah. Yeah, it just really kind of, like, ruins your enjoyment or it kind of is there at the edges. I thought that was really well described that, yeah, Michael Jackson, a song comes on and your body responds before you respond intellectually. And that's the thing with Michael Jackson, like, it will take you a while before you're like, oh, wait, hang on. This is Michael Jackson. But the fact that you are literally your toes tapping or maybe you're actually dancing or singing along and then you remember what he did.

And her argument in fact, is Jackson 5 okay? But like later Michael's not okay? Like what can you like get down to? Like ABC might be all right because he didn't know what he was doing. But he was also being abused by his father at that point. Yeah. So complicated. And also I mean, because it's hard not to on some level, you know, really appreciate what he's done as an artist in terms of like all, you know,

as a black working class kid from from the middle of America. like what, okay, admittedly it was his father who masterminded the whole thing, but the amount of work, the hard work and kind of that absolute dedication to reach his level of craft. So you do admire that and you admire the music itself, but then his actual personal life is so fraught. And I think there's a distinction between, you know, artists that we see on screen like Michael Jackson, like friend,

and his whole thing about I love the children in different ways, right? But, you know, it is very public thing of I love the children. Yeah. And then seeing that kind of very, you know, that very visual person, in your mind versus somebody like Polanski who's kind of, he's not on screen, right? Woody Allen is on screen, but there are some people that certain kinds of artists depending on the art they make kind of like are behind the screens

and they're allowed to kind of be a bit more laconic and you don't know as much about their personal life versus somebody who puts up this very public front which is incomplete odds with the way they're acting behind the stage. That was a very interesting section towards the end of the book. I think it's around page 80 where she's talking about direct address in broadcasting even though you're aware that you are one of an audience, someone can speak directly to you

and the ramifications that has then on their actions. And you're absolutely right. People who love Dan love Michael Jackson, he was one of those artists where it's like, he was my person, he was the person representing me, the person I wanted to be, the person you would be a child and go, if he managed to get everything. Well, she talks about the magic of performing, doesn't she?

And the magic trick, speaking to an individual versus a crowd she talked about. and like how many times have you seen a good performer and you've said it's like they were talking to me like i'm never seeing biont in concert before like the big but she was like karyad you're an amazing dancer get out of it and that it was just me and her and it was i think it's a dream um no i've ever seen j z get out the carrie's coming with me to pick some express i need a backing dancer okay i guess i could i've got my trainers on but sure um i saw her i remember it was like massive wembley something like that and that was the I was like oh my god like and this is I want to say this is like pre this is like crazy love times this before we all knew that she was certified actual goddess walking amongst us

and I was like this is like weird bad seats we were far away and I was like I feel like she's singing to me this isn't and I was like oh this is what people talk about and that that that's again which comes up so much with art monsters is like that that that's a power right a power that some performers have some producers have some writers have that they feel like they are talking directly to you, one of the really interesting people I think she talks about is J.K. Rowling. Like, I found that, as again, someone who was into Harry Potter, but we both read Harry Potter, but we were older. We were adults when the book came out. We weren't quite like the Potterhead generation. But I would have been absolutely. But we did queue for the second book. I key for that

second book. I went to Tesco with my, my mum drove me to Tesco in Edgway so I could get it at midnight. I was already, yeah, at university and the excitement of going to see the film, maybe that's what was university. I felt like I was part of history. I wept during the credits. Oh, the film's always upset me. I don't have that. Like, in the books, there is an actual sorting hat that sorts you into a category and says, like, you are this person and you are this person and you feel part of a group. And what's in your heart?

What's in your heart? You can see what's inside you. No wonder. Like, it appeals to every teenage vulnerability, those books. And, like, I mean, I love these books. Because it's not about what you've done. It's about what you could do. So that the idea of, like, courage, like, you could have.

save your friend. You just haven't saved your friend. Yeah. As a teenager, you're like, yeah, I know I'm worth something. Yeah. But she talks about when, you know, JK comes out with the anti-trans stance that she does, like the betrayal in the queer community that these kids thought this was a book, which was about,

it doesn't matter who you are, whatever's in your heart, there's this goodness, the difference is welcomed. And that thing of, I find it interesting because I'm not only into Harry Potter, I'm into Lord the Rings. And like, we don't live at a time where Tolkien could be tweeting. Like, Tolkien could have been tweeting any old stuff. He probably wouldn't be into that.

He's another anti-Semitic one. He's definitely up there. It's that thing of being so close to the author these days. Like you said someone, so there's a generation where, like, you know, Michael Jackson is public facing because he's a pop star, but now we're in this generation where writers and producers, and all these people are, we're so much closer to them,

and we can see and hear what they think. And, you know, it's that weird thing of going, well, is it good that we know that J.K. Rowling thinks these? And then what does that do to reading, to wanting to read the books, enjoying the books. And I love that she, what she's coming from the point of view of an audience and a fan of like the moral quandary, the tension isn't in the writer. It's in the person who's reading it going, oh, I like it, but you said a bad thing. Have you ever then either of you

liked someone's work until you found out what they did and then gone off it? Because with comedy, stand-up comedians, quite often, you know, you've seen a DVD growing up or, you know, You really like someone's work and then you meet them and they're rude. Even just rude, okay, so I'm not saying monstrous behavior. I'm saying antisocial slightly. And then the next time you see them, I'm like, yeah. And you don't laugh with them anymore. You don't see the twinkling they're eye.

You don't think, oh, I'd love to go for a beer with them. I don't have it with a stand. I have it because I was so obsessed with like watching comedy as a kid. So like comedy actors who like I had seen, and I would like follow people's career. So I would see like, oh, they were in that episode of Red Dwarf. And now they're in this episode of British Empire. Like, oh my God. I like,

I know, you're already outing yourself now. I'm not even outing. Captain Hollister, who is in episode, episode one. What is she talking about? Beyonce's cancelled the tour.

But I mean, to be fair, there's like different levels of monster. Yes. I mean, is that really a monster? Because, I mean, it's one thing to be Polanski

or doing what Michael Jackson was doing or a wine scene. And it's another thing to... Being a bit snippy to me and Sarah on a job. I agree, that is not the same. And then, like, in between you have,

you know, J.K. Rowling, who some people see as a monster because of her views on trends and Virginia Wolf who some people see as a monster because she said some anti-Semitic things or wrote some anti-Semitic

things and I'd say like they're not in the same category as Polansky and Cosby and then she there's a really interesting thing kind of like the second half of the book is really about is it a monster to be a female artist and abandon your children and not abandon them flat out although some people do do that but also just not be there as a mother because you're focusing

if you're working you're not with your kids and if you're with your kids you're not working and if you are a writer which you two both are, then to have that seesaw, I thought that was, I think that's why I got so excited about this book coming out is that when I read the extract, it was that bit, which is about monstrousness and questioning your own monstrousness. And I'm going to read you the quote actually because I just thought this was so brilliant. I have to wonder, maybe I'm not monstrous enough. But a little part of me has to ask, if I were more selfish, would my work be

better? Should I aspire to greater selfishness? Every writer mother I know has asked herself this question. Yeah. Yeah. But there's, I mean, again, different levels of monsterdom because you're saying am I being a monster because I'm so dedicated to my art. I'm not there 100% for my kids all the time versus people like, you know, Polanski or David Bowie who, you know, maybe they were monsters in the process of making their art, but achieved a certain level of stardom and that enabled or pardoned or gave them access to doing these things with young girls, right? I mean, so it's almost like as a result of their stardom, they've been pardoned for their monstrous behavior. or they feel like they can do that.

Yeah, and she says that with Picasso and Hemingway as well. I thought that chapter is really interesting where she's like, they allowed their genius to become part of the myth, which meant, well, if we want their genius art, their paintings and their books, we must put up with their beating their wives constantly or burning a cigarette into a woman's cheek because that's art. Well, that's a genius.

Yeah, that's genius. They're unstable, so we can't expect of them. But I think the gender is really interesting, because what she talks about is for a man to be a monstrous artist, he is, like he abuses his power. But for a woman to be a monstrous artist, it is like not being a good mother. I love that she says,

like I am the accuser and I want to consume the art. That's the bit that I think is this tension of like, we're pointing the finger at people. And she talks about council culture, which, you know, is talked about a lot. And the lack of nuance. And like you said, like everything you're saying, you're like, it's really complicated.

Like every case has to be reviewed in a way. And, you know, from. Wagner to Bill Cosby to J.K. Rowling. Like, everybody's crimes are so different and so complex. And yet here we are on social media or, you know, on a podcast, trying to be like, well, this person's okay, so you can watch

that film, but not that song. But it's about how it affects other people. So if I was wearing an I love Wagner t-shirt, that would have an effect on the people I was around. If you have a radio show, if you're DJing Winnie and you stick Michael Jackson song, purely Michael Jackson hits, some people are going to go, well, I'm not

enjoying the disco. Yeah. So it's a kind of thing about what can you publicly be seen to be embracing and what can you privately enjoy. Well, she says,

and she's like the guilt of sitting down to stream a Roman Polanski film, you know, like feeling, even in your own home of like, oh, it's for research,

that's why I'm watching it. And then watching China Town and being like, God, this is incredible. Like, this is such a good film, but being like, ah, I don't want to think these things,

but people can be talented and awful. And I think that's what we're fighting all the time of like, how people are not one thing. It's not a binary. Like, They can be artistic geniuses and absolute abusers.

But we've made that almost hand in hand that the man must be a genius and an abuser and that's okay. Like how do we find a path to be an artist and not be an abuser? With really monstrous behaviour, we are looking for clues about how does a person do that? Because we can't imagine doing it. Right. Murdering someone.

Look at me. Straight to me then. Murdering someone. Someone who says red, red, Gawf isn't that good, perhaps? Whoa. Whoa. No one said it. No one said it. Series 7 to 8. Yes, I agree with you, but series 1 to 5 are absolute classics. I mean, there is something to be said, and I don't know how much Claire brings us up in her book. I mean, so, okay, so for me, for me, the main reason to separate art from the artist is because for every single amazing artist

that's made it out there and who's seen as a star, there are loads and loads of other really talented artists that are never going to get that chance. And who knows, maybe are even more talented, but because they never got those opportunities, because we know... Shakespeare's sister argument and also the Hannah Gadsby and her brilliant miniature, which is like, yeah, who else didn't get there? Yes, we know these industries aren't fair industries. So if somebody makes it, I feel, okay, fine, great, I want to see that other, whatever art that person creates next, but that's not a pardon to then, you know, to be committing

these crimes because there's loads of other people out there who are really talented, who aren't abusers, who aren't criminals, who I think generally are maybe women. But that's what's interesting is that we've linked the two. We've made it like, well, if you do the great art, maybe you will be an asshole. Like, we've made that part of the pack of cards you need to be the great artist. And if we do meet someone who's nice, we're like, oh, they're actually nice. Like, people say that all the time about famous people, like, oh, no, they're actually all right. Like, isn't that weird that they're famous, talented and nice?

Incomplicit, when you go to great lengths to talk about Sarah's background, and the background of all of the people sort of working in the film industry. The character of Sarah. It sounded like you're talking about yourself. Oh, yes. Yeah, the character of Sarah, the connections and, yeah, the intersection between class, money, education, racial background. If you're an outsider, if you're not white, for example, and you're growing up in the West, or if you're working class, you know, you just don't have access to those circles. So to grow up in a kind of an immigrant community and say, I want to be a writer, I want to be an actor. Like, that's a huge amount of work you have to do to get there, right? And so once you're there, there's almost an expectation.

Like you, it's the same reason that like, you know, Barack Obama, when he was elected president of U.S., he's not going to be having affairs on the side, right? Because his role as a black man in a very public position was one where he had to be like absolutely upstanding morally, right? And there couldn't be any kind of behavior on his end that would attract attention. So same thing. If you were from a background where you're ready and outsider, once you reach that level of some kind of platform, you have to be on your best behavior. sense that you should be on your best behavior because you're lucky to have even attained that position. Whereas somebody who's already, you know, who comes from money, who comes from privilege and somehow like finds themselves in this, who's maybe a Nipu baby, who finds himself in this position,

you know, maybe they already come from a world where they're allowed to act like that. And so there isn't that additional layer of you have to be on your best behavior and you have to be, you know, not, you know, we have to be respecting people's sexual consent, for example. You have to be not an alcoholic, right, because you're aware of how far you've gone, how hard you've had to work to get there, I suppose. So, yeah, and so I think that distinction between privilege and entitlement, and so I guess entitlement's another way to say it, whereas, you know, and people often say there's a gendered element to it because men feel like they're entitled to different things, right? So, and that's, like, runs throughout pretty much every industry we can think of, right? Yeah. Whereas women have to work a lot

harder to be taken seriously, to get that book deal, you know, to get to get that, you know, those venues booked for that show. So you're not going to do anything to endanger that. And actually, there would be a huge amount of introspection of, am I behaving in a way which is going to, you know, allow my work to continue. There would be a constant checking in with herself. I don't know. A woman who wouldn't in her quiet moments go, oh gosh, do they not like me? They don't seem to be responding well to me. That boss seems to have been disappointed with my work to day. Yeah, the constant, how can I make everybody like me so that I'm allowed to stay in the room? Yeah, I think a lot of women can relate to that. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So even that sense of

freedom, like, so there's some kind of anxiety, I suppose, it happens, you know, once you reach that level of position, because you're like, oh, yeah, no, I can't, I can't afford to screw this up, right? Or I have to always be trading work that that pleases people or pleases the gatekeepers. Whereas I feel like men oftentimes, especially if you look at people like Hemingway or, you know, because they're just given that license to, like, do whatever they want, act however they want. because they're that confident in themselves as an artist or themselves as a genius. Yeah. What you're saying very clearly is if you have always been an establishment,

and it's something she does reference sort of John Cleese. Oh, she does. It's brilliant either John Cleese, I get. Yeah, I might quote that. It's so good. Yeah, it's so good. I feel like she's so clear. If you've always been the establishment, you think that your voice,

you would never question that you're representative of everyone. So she's talking about, in 2018, Shane Allen. I love that Shane Allen gets a shout out in this book. I was like, oh. It was like suddenly a character we knew. Yeah. So he was, he's not anymore. He was the BBC comedy controller. What does she call him?

The laughs czar. Because she's obviously like, what? So Shane Allen said, if you're going to assemble a team now, it's not going to be six Oxbridge white blokes. He was referring to Monty Python, which obviously annoyed Monty Python. And Terry Gillian responded vehemently. I no longer want to be a white male.

I don't want to be blamed for everything wrong in the world. I tell the world now I'm a black lesbian. Thank you, Mr. Gilliam. Sure, the black lesbians love that. Also, we will welcome you into the phone. They've already had all the stuff. It's not like retrospectively, we're taking it away. Everything about it is irritating.

And then John Cleese accused Mr. Allen of social engineering. So they, yeah, I mean, just unbelievable. Just the old men, just shush. Anyway, she says, much better than that. She says, but of course, giving a group of white male fancy pantses all the breaks for years is the ultimate social engineering. Listen, I'd rather watch the pythons than Gadsby any day of the week. But the point of...

I felt bad about that. I felt bad for that, yeah. But the point is this, none of these guys has the bandwidth to even entertain the idea that a woman or a person of color's point of view might just be as normal as theirs, just as central. They seem incapable of understanding that theirs is not the universal point of view and that their own comedy has left people out.

Yeah. And that, I read that and I was like, oh, it's such a clear argument of like what they're saying is like, Oh, we're getting to blame for everything. It's like you, you, in being all white men doing all panel shows and all comedy, you left everyone out. But to them, they're like, but we didn't know. We can all enjoy me.

Yeah, exactly. And this is my argument. I remember growing up, I watched a lot of male comedy. So I learned really quickly, it's funny when women moan. It's funny when men don't pick up their clothes. It's funny. Like, I had to learn that. Women never say yes to sex.

You have to keep asking them. And it's really annoying. And I remember watching, you know, stuff like, like Reddorf, which actually is pretty progressive, guys. I'll get over it. I think you've mentioned it enough times. Are you sure? Okay.

What is this? If they just want them to remake it again and put me in as Kachanski. But listen, but I remember learning, oh, this is what men find funny. But women, I remember when Broad City came out, which is American comedy with two women in lead, Alana Glazer and Abby Jacobson. And I remember watching it laughing and talking to someone at the BBC. who said, oh, it's a bit vulgar

because the first episode is like they're storing weed up their vagina, basically. And I remember thinking, oh, you haven't had to learn how women sometimes do things. Like, you haven't had to sit down and watch women be funny. Whereas we privately have watched women be funny and have that own, but we've had to. And that's the thing

with this argument of the white male of Pisthens being like, well, but we are normal and therefore now we're being told off for being normal, not seeing how centred that is. The gendered response to the consumption of the work of monsters, I feel like I've mentioned Reddor off too much. I thought was so, I've not read anyone else talking about it or even talk to people about it,

but that thing where maybe one, myself, doesn't enjoy work anymore because of a man's biography and things is done. And then a man tells you that's the wrong response. Oh, when she talks about Woody Allen, I've had to deal with that. Because if you like Woody Allen, you've ever had a conversation about, Jesus, men love telling you you're wrong about that. It's not about what he's did. It's about the work, as if you've done something wrong.

And I love her defence of like, you can't, just like you can't choose whether your Tyres tapping to Michael Jackson. Yeah. You can't choose if you something doesn't speak to you anymore because of what you know. If the biography interrupting. Yeah, when she talks about you're having an emotional reaction. And she was like, the men are acting like, oh, no, Woody Allen is a genius. You just have to ignore what he did.

Like, as if that isn't emotional. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, she kind of says, like, as a fan, like, anybody, it's really about two biographies, meaning the biography of the artist and the biography of, like, you yourself. So if you've experienced sexual abuse or, you know, and then you know that this has been done by an artist, then it's. that's a kind of clash between your own personal experience

and what this other person's done and you can't enjoy the work anymore. And that's not something that other people who haven't experienced sexual abuse have to worry about, right, in the same way. So which is probably why so many men are like, oh, well, that's fine, with everybody else because they never were on the receiving act.

We have a really huge conversation in comedy and it goes on sort of every year, getting updated, but about jokes about rape. Yeah. And the thing is that you don't, that thing about biography's meeting, you have no idea who is in your audience and what they've experienced.

And actually, you have to make certain assumptions. A certain amount of your audience will have experienced cancer, even firsthand, or for a family member. Some of them, you know, one in ten of them will be diabetic. There's all these sort of things you make assumptions. And there's sensitivity from some people that talking about something like sexual assault is going to, is your material worth the emotional response from people who have experienced something? And a lot of the time the answer is no. Now, sometimes, like Gadsby's show is a great example.

I just hate it when anyone's mean about anyone. I did think it was unnecessary to throw Gatsby under the bus at that point. Gadsby became so massive that she then became this, oh, because she just had to absorb so much criticism. It's just so mean. You can't, you can't, Python's to Gadsby. It's not a comparison. And also, it's not a choice.

You can have both. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I hate people being mean. Sorry, Claire, that's our one complaint. I was just imagining Hannah Gatsby's settling down for a lovely breed. I know, I'm being like, stand up.

So Gatsby's show includes references to assault, and in particular, you know, her own experiences. And I wouldn't say that you can't ever talk about raping comedy because that would then mean Gatsby can't do perform that show. But when there are men making very lazy jokes, is that worth and trying to explain to people to empathize? I mean, you can have experienced it and also make jokes about it in a way that still kind of honor or respect the trauma.

I suppose in the same way that a lot of black comedians will joke about black culture about race and everything like that. But it's almost like, okay, no, they're allowed to because they've lived through it, right? Whereas if you were, you know, a white man, you probably certainly can't be joking about race in the same day these days, or if you're a white man who's never experienced,

you know, who's never been on the receiving end of sexual violence, abuse, harassment, it's probably not okay to be joking about that. And it probably never was, but for decades, it always was. I love, that's one of the bits I really enjoy where she talks about Wagner and she references a Stephen Frye documentary

where he wants to go back and speak to Wagner, and she really pulls out all the really solid evidence of like, oh, Wagner, absolutely knew what he was doing when he wrote his essay against Jews in general in music and she said you know we give we forgive the past and we give this like oh they didn't know things were different then and she's like oh he he knew so badly he wrote this essay to be like oh look

I know you think it's okay to like Jews but here's me explaining to you why it's definitely not okay and I thought that was really interesting that we're constantly again that argument of like oh things were different then I mean classic I know this is such classic but when the me two happened I remember talking to my mum about it and her friend was like oh I mean who didn't get their bottom pinched in those you know things were different like that was her friend's instant argument I was like that doesn't mean it's okay just because things happened or men were allowed to write essays where they said Jewish all these awful anti-semitic things it doesn't mean that they didn't

know what they were doing and it doesn't mean they wouldn't be doing it exactly the same now yeah yeah you can't you can't say that if you did I mean no one would make this movie but if I was in a time machine. He wouldn't instantly realize the error of his way. Well, this is what she's saying, isn't she, Revan of like, we like to say, oh, well, if I was there, I would be different as well. And I think, again, that's a really interesting argument, because we are currently living through hideous, hideous things, and people are going, well, what are you doing? Like, how do you? And you can see how hard it is to make this an active part of your life where you're fighting wrong at every turn and literally get up and exist and eat

and shower and do all the things you need to do to be a human. Winnie, I think you, in complicit show, because I think lots of people would hear about a monster working, say, in Hollywood, and think, but how? How does nobody know? How is it allowed to happen? And what you showed so brilliantly, and if anyone is ever wondering that,

they should read your book, is that people have a sort of an idea or a hint, or maybe see someone crying, but they are concentrating on, you know, mostly themselves, their huge workload, their own stressing, and getting on. And everyone knows a tiny little bit. And no one else is responsible

because they aren't the monsters themselves. But you can end up with a huge amount of people who knew a tiny little bit. And then when it comes out, why didn't you do something? Well, based on what? I saw a woman crying on the stairs. Yeah.

And also if you're working under that monster, so if there's a person who is abusive, who's a bully in the workplace, and there are many, and you can make the argument that to have reached a certain level of success in these industries, maybe you have to be a bit of an asshole, right?

You know, let's be honest about that, whether it's a director or whether you're a producer, you know, I mean, there is a certain kind of psychotic behavior in terms of pursuing success to that level. So, you know, if you're working under someone like that, no, you don't want to get them angry, right? So I can imagine. I mean, like, you know, Weinstein was not a good person to work for

because he, I mean, you know, he was well connected, but he was constantly kind of shouting of people, right? So, you know, if he says, like set up a meeting with me this young woman in a hotel room and that's your job, you know, who were you to say, actually, should you be doing at Harvey, right? Because you're just going to be like, shout at that, right? And then you'll lose your job and you'll probably never work in the industry again. So it's that level of power that people have. And Weinstein was one of the people who did try and, he did end careers. He did end actresses. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. People who did question him

did stop working. So people had evidence. They weren't imagining. Yeah. The ramifications. Yeah. But I mean, you know, Rose McGowan, you know, in her book, she recounts how she was abused, I mean, basically raped by Harvey at, at in Sundance, right? And then she told her agents and they were just like, I just don't, don't mention it again, right? You know, and so they kind of like, we're like, just, you know, we'll just worry this. And that's a different kind of monstrousness. Yeah. Yeah. And it is a kind of monster and that's what your character has to examine in themselves. Yeah. And I think that would be true of those agents. Yeah. I mean, if they thought they were giving her good career advice or something, but you would have to question. But it is very much like everybody

for themselves because like, okay, I'm going to, you know, this is the best thing for your career, my client, right? But then let's forget about all the other women out there who might be abused because we're saying nothing, right? And so again, with Sarah, because she comes from, you know, an immigrant background, her parents run a Chinese restaurant and she feels lucky to even have this in in the industry. She doesn't want to do anything that's going to endanger her position. And, and then, again, she has, like, there's a very definite power structure, both of her bosses. She's kind of scared of, right? Yeah, and she's told she's replaceable. Yeah, yeah, that sense that you're expendable.

you're lucky to have this job. And so if you're not okay with this, then get out because there's 10,000 other people that want your job, right? I mean, there's an interesting thing because there's a female boss in complicit Sylvia who is, you know, she's in her 50. So she's kind of this like sort of battle-worn, you know, hard-nosed woman who kind of has this like ambivalent role. Because on one hand she takes Sarah under her wing and says like, oh, no, I'll also mentor you and give you these opportunities. But she's also blind or she just kind of decides not to really engage with the fact. She thinks she's a realist, doesn't she? She understands that, you know, the character, Hugo, who is the abuser or the main abuser,

he's the money, so that's what happens. You keep him happy. And the director is the genius, so he says sexist things, and you keep him happy. And her age actually is her sort of defense. Yeah, I've been around, this is what happens. Yeah, and that goes back to a bit to what you were saying in terms of, okay, a generational thing, like, oh, well, back in the day we all had to deal with this, right? You know, I mean, being pinched on the bomb or being called this by man,

like, that's just what you have to deal with as a woman in the industry. and just saying, like, well, I had to put up with it when I was a young woman, so you girls should buck up too. And that kind of, like, quite hardened, like, really cynical attitude, which still pardons that kind of behavior. And in some ways, doesn't really protect young women either because... It's really interesting, isn't it? Because I agree with you, it pardons it and it offers no protection.

Yeah. It really is a victim who's saying, I'm fine. Like, I'm fine. And there's no acknowledgement of, like, oh, yeah, that hurt me. And I was upset. And I feel really... It's like, all of those feelings are deep... I'm fine now.

Or it doesn't happen to me anymore. It doesn't happen to me anymore. Or like I decided not to be affected by it. And again, it's like this thing with monchlessness of like, a pinch on the bum is one thing, but being sexually assaulted by your boss is completely different. Like, you know, the layers of abuse. Or being around someone and hearing him say things.

And then when it comes out, they have actually done things going, well, I only heard. Yeah. Or you see, you know, we've all been in that position when you'd like heard the joke and everyone's laughed and you've walked away going, well, that was a really gross joke, but like it was a joke and everyone was okay. Everyone just like, yeah, how, how near you are to the bomb blast of what the actual monstrousness is. But it's that kind of sliding scale of what we'll tolerate as well, right?

So if we'll tolerate guys saying this or pinching your bum. And if you're already giving them that kind of radius to do that, then that enables other behavior on their end, right? So it's this kind of like blindness you put up just to kind of protect your own career. but there's no kind of structural change happening there, right? So, like, in complicit, there's quite a few different female characters who are all quite strong women in their own way. And because some of them are older and they're in different positions within the industry, you know, one of them is an unbecoming actress who, like, 10 years later, is now an A-Lis actress, right? But she's in a very vulnerable position with the wine scene type character with Hugo. But, you know, and she becomes quite good friends with Sarah, but then even though Sarah suspects something might have happened to the other actress, to that actress, like they don't talk about it, actor using the term.

actor. So there's this kind of like silence that happens and because women aren't sharing their stories with each other or because people aren't talking openly about it, that allows abuse to continue. And so Sarah kind of is very regretful about, you know, she never spoke up and therefore there might be hundreds of other women since then that have experienced that and whose careers and lives were, you know, permanently affected. And, you know, did I play a part in that because I didn't speak up at the time? I mean, I thought it was interesting in this book, Monsters, when she talks about the Me Too movement and Kelly Oxford's

one of Kelly Oxford's tweets where it's like okay I'll go first you know I'm 12 and a guy does that grabs my ass on the bus like that was my first and then like the amount like the millions and millions of responses where this global moment where everyone was like oh that wasn't okay

because like said we've all experienced those things or all like the small things that permit another worse thing that you do brush off and you do think and all of us most women And it's like, yeah, I was 12, I was 13, I was 11. And our silence, for whatever reasons, you know, embarrassment, self-blame, or feeling it's so uniform, you don't have shouted at the time,

that it meant that a lot of men were, in shocking disbelief, women were not shocked. No. Women were like, yes. And or the opposite where they go, how can this be true? It's happened. There was like an essay in the Times from an older man being like, but if these statistics are true, this means it happened to everyone.

As in thinking, if this, they must be, exaggerated because that made more sense to him that the statistics were made up than it was a common experience. You get the same experience when something, when we, with the Black Lives Matter moon, like that white moon being like, what? Oh my God, this is awful. Why didn't you tell us? And then the whole community being like, this happens. Why are you shocked? And I'm being like, oh, that's not my experience. I don't face it day to day. I'm not seeing it. Or you've tried to tell me and I haven't absorbed it. Yeah. You're not living in those, you're not walking in those shoes. And so you're just not seeing it in the same way.

And I feel like we are living in this very amazing moment where, you know, especially in this industry, I mean, to be fair, it's any industry. It's not just the film industry or the comedy industry. Like all industries have people who abuse their power. It happens in supermarkets. Yeah. It's not just a noisy, glamorous parties. Yeah.

Oh, why is the comedy industry so bad? You're like, I've been sex harassed at all sorts of jobs. Because my country is there are men there. Sorry. But yeah, I think, like we are living in this amazing point where, like you said, people suddenly share the stories and then suddenly we realize, oh, this is a problem, there is a culture and I just think

I like the way she describes it as a book about broken hearts. And like there's a quote, the teen, so she's talking about she lives in Seattle, it's quite small community and there was some people in the Seattle like rock community who end up being assholes. And this teen, she calls a crepe girl. She's like making pancakes, doesn't she? And she says,

I still love them, even after everything. And she was like, that is all of us. Like even after everything there's this piece of you that loves this thing and i love towards the end of the book she starts really i think at the end of that last bit is basically what the whole book about is like why do we love people who are awful like why do not just michael jackson david bowie but you're rolling boy friends like people who yeah who have hurt and abuse you yet you still feel love for them and that's why i think this book is so interesting because it's getting into the

nuance of humanity that you even though you know things you can still still perfect people. You love imperfect people. And she quotes all through the book, re-quoting Woody Allen, who is also re-quoting, but the heart wants what it wants. Yeah, yeah, Emily Dickinson quote, yeah. Which is so close. You said that. Woody Allen used him, Emily Dickinson court to justify his marriage as soon as you, yeah.

Which doesn't mean you have to accept it. It made me feel a bit urpy. Yeah, I'm with you, Claire Dadder on that. It's a bit urpy watching Manhattan these days. But that's the starting point, isn't it? Is that you have to admit, okay, whether I like it or not, something about that work, that person. and speaks to me.

Yeah. I have to dec- well, you can do some work to deconstruct why. How did you feel after finishing the book? Did you feel,

Winnie Ashty? Like, did you feel, because I don't feel like she offers answers, but how do you feel about art monsters? Now you've finished it. I mean,

it was very interesting because, you know, obviously we've been talking about it for a long time. So there's a lot of really interesting things she's discovered. Like, it's a bit kind of meandering in that she picks different artists

and like, let's look at how monstrous the art is or not. And I think at the end, I did like how she said, Like, you know, we can't change what art we love or the person that we love, right? And it's actually almost there's like a reaffirmation of like, that love is fine. It's fine that you love Miles Davis, even though he was an abuser.

Yeah. It's fine that you love, I don't personally, but, you know, Annie Hall, right? Because there is, the art in itself has an inherent value. And she talks about beauty and, like, the fact that you can connect to it emotionally, even though that creator of that art is a problematic person, that's fine, right? So it's almost kind of like a pardon for the flaws in human behavior. I mean, I don't think at the end of the day, she's not like holding up like a standard. You know, I mean, I do think we need to have like a zero tolerance policy in terms of all this kind of behavior in the industries.

Otherwise, things aren't going to change. Especially when someone is using their status to continue abusing. Because the thing we have in comedy with people who continue to work is if you are an employer, you're not going, well, the work's the work. You know, what they say on the panel show, if people enjoy it, it's not just a financial thing. by giving someone status, if they then abuse their status and work or out of it, there does have to be a zero tournament. I guess what's interesting with this book is it's literally called Monsters of Fans Dilemma.

So she's, and she questions like, you know, is it, is the onus on us as fans to make these moral decisions? And like, kind of wrestling with yourself, like, cannot enjoy this with the Alan film or not. Right. And she kind of pardons us and says, like, if you enjoy the art, you enjoy the art, right? But then that's a different thing from what we've been talking about, which is about the process of making the art, right, the business of the industry and like which, what kind of, abusive behavior we're going to accept and just say that's okay because this person's a genius. So it's almost like there's responsibility, it's probably more responsibility on the end of the

producers or, you know, the industry itself to kind of hold people to account for better behavior and not actually have the on the owners put on, you know, the consumers. Well, she's really, she says, doesn't she, like, she's speaking on behalf of the audience. And when she says that, she's like, I'm talking behalf of myself. She's like, I keep saying we, I mean I. And I do think this book, why I think it's interesting is it's not, it's not. offering solutions. It's not coming from producer point of view. It's not coming from like, okay, how do we move forward?

How do we create a better working vibe? She's like, how do we the audience forgive ourselves for these past mistakes, have the art in our life, but also move forward and accept that it's not okay. And also, I think, understand the myth of genius, understand the myth of the male artist and like really

like true critic, you know, she deconstructs it, pulls it apart so you can see it for what Picasso was doing, for what Hemingway was doing. What Nabokov was writing about. Oh, we haven't even hit. Oh my God. I love that. That was my favorite chapter.

Yeah. That is her best chapter, definitely. She writes about Nabokov, Lolita, and gone. And an artist being monstrous and demonstrating, I guess, the everyday nature of certain types of monstrousness. Yeah. I mean, basically, she's saying Nabokov wasn't a monster in his behavior. Nobody knows.

I mean, he certainly seemed to be fine. But he was writing a book that made him quite vulnerable in the sense that people could accuse him of being a pedophon. I mean, it's a book that, you know, does it glamorized pedophilia? No, she did a very close reading event. So it's like, no, actually, like, you know, what's at the heart of the book is the fact that, you know, and the Lolita character has essentially been erased by... Yeah, he's someone who does those kind of things to teenagers or children

extinguishes something about them. And that's why it's so unspeakable as a crime. Yeah, we didn't even speak about... I know, I thought we were going to talk about Lilita plays, because it's almost like, chapter itself is like a book in it. It's so much. But she, I felt she slightly defended him too much for the Nabokov. The Nabokov's my guy.

Yeah, that's your guy. For me, I was like, she's defending him. And I love Lolita at university. I tell you why, I loved, and it is a defence, but a little bit like the men who told her she was wrong to not like the film Manhattan because of what it depicts, which is a man who has heaphylic tendencies and power with a much younger woman who is, you know, has agents. see. It's what it says about those men actually as consumers of work is that the reason it might be

very, very unsettling to a woman who has been a young woman is it feels too true. And to a man, that's why he relates to the work. That's why he isn't as affronted by it. It doesn't make him feel physically sick to watch it. And essentially what she said is Nabokov did that on purpose, really master Flynn. I was like, few. I feel like she's slightly got her Zavrador prets or not to get to that point of view because the chapter before she's like look, Wagner was anti-Semitic and it's not just regardless of the time he knew what he was doing and then she's like but the sexual abuse that he's writing about it's so it's so happening to everybody that actually Nabokov is kind of doing

everyone a favour by writing about it and I was like I still think it was wrong and he knew it was wrong and he made a you know beautifully written book about it but again that's the fan she's clearly such a huge fan of Nabokov that she is. But that was my one I was like, Claire. You sound like me defending David Bowdo. I guess one thing to call into mind is kind of this thing about the single-mindedness of the artist, right?

And that's what I did like about her book in terms, like, by looking at these different artists, she is also kind of discussing how completely single-minded you have to be to pursue your art and just to be like, listen, I don't care. I'm going to maybe treat the people in my personal life a bit shitty because I need to, you know,

get this movie done or this book done. And that is, to some extent, that is what you have to do, like, in some ways. I mean, not treat them badly, but you really have to prioritize your art. And if you're creating art at the level of these people, and with that level of frequency, like, you do have to be that single-minded in some ways, right? And so, like, in complicit, there's this, I mean, it doesn't pardon, like, abusive behavior, but you do have to really kind of prioritize, like, I want to be creating. So in complicit, there's this director, character, Xander, who is completely single-minded

to the point that he shows up and he won't do the chit-chat with people. He'll just sit there with his dark glasses and be like, okay, this is my artistic vision. You help me make it. And to how is that ego? Yeah, that's ego because you have to kind of be so assured about the quality of your own artistic vision and the fact that you deserve, you know, especially in film. It's like, okay, get all these other people to raise millions of dollars to make my artistic vision happen, right? there's a different thing between if you're a writer, you sit down, you write your own work,

and that's it. You're not really like taking up other people's resources. Amy Schumer's books, I think the first chapter is about how when she goes on tour, she doesn't talk to people who work in the venue because it's exhausting. And so she's writing this sort of really, not even defensively, she's just writing, I don't say hello. Basically, she's saying if you work on stage door and I haven't said hello to you, it's because if I said hello to everyone, I didn't know, then by the time I get on stage, I'm depleted.

And I read this as someone who does the same job as her and thought, how incredibly rude. But she's much more successful than I am. So maybe if I stopped going, oh, hello, nice to meet you. Do you want anything from the shops? I'm going to the Little Sainsbury. Maybe I'd be a much better comedian and much more famous. I think it's a really personal thing. And I think some people are, like, like you said, people have spoken about like,

they're so nice. They know everybody's names on set. And they are. Tom Hanks. Tom Hanks. And they are able to do that. They are able to be that person and be the artist. and some people aren't.

I think it's like, it's, you know, no shame. Some people just cannot, hey, how are you? Do that and then do acting. They're like, I have to be really rude to you and be single-minded.

Yeah. But it's like, yeah, where's the boundary? Where do we blur? Where's this idea of like, that's someone just being a bit like of an asshole and someone being monstrous?

Yeah. And we know the difference, but we also all have experienced someone who we thought was a bit of an arson and turns out they were a fucking monster. You're like, oh, oh, I did think They weren't very nice. Yeah, it was a warning sign.

Yeah. And so you are not giving warning signs. Maybe that's... The last line, I actually loved, I really loved how Claire Dedibas started for these two quotes. Yes, the quotes. So I thought as our last lines. From one of my favorites, Shirley Hazard, who we do not get to speak enough about. Read out Shirley Hazard quote, please, Carrie.

This is a quote from the front of her book by Shirley Hazard, amazing writer. It is always tempting, of course, to impose one's views rather than to undergo the submission required by art, a submission akin to that of generosity or love. I think that's so beautiful. Hazard is very beautiful. And I really love this quote from Clarice Leispector. Who has not asked himself at some time or other, am I a monster?

Or is this what it means to be a person? Such a good word. Because essentially, and that's why I'd really recommend this book to anyone. Yeah, yeah. It's like having a really interesting conversation. So smart. It's such a smart book. Yeah.

And I felt like I learned a little bit more, about all of these artists involved, even though they're monsters, the majority of them. Yeah, and I think it also, if you've ever had to defend, if you've ever had a conversation with someone being like, no, but Manhattan's a thing, it gives you a lot of arguments. You're like, no, hang on. Let me tell you why, Mr Man.

Manhattan is still not okay. It's Erpy. So, yeah, I loved this book. It's Earpy. I'm sure Dederwell would want us all to take that away. Thank you so much, Rini. Thanks, thanks for happening. Thank you for listening to the Weirdo's Book Club.

You can find Winnie on. social media and winnie m lee.com that's l i.com is her website go over there and find out about all of her books next week's episode is all about what we're looking forward to reading in 2024 that's this year what's coming up what we're excited about what's the buzz tell me what's it happening thank you for reading with us we like reading with you