Sara & Cariad's Weirdos Book Club - My Brilliant Friend by Elena Ferrante

Episode Date: February 20, 2025

This week's book guest is My Brilliant Friend by Elena Ferrante.In this episode Sara and Cariad discuss school, communism, slimy dads, scary dads, writing as freedom and when names are quite similar.Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you!Trigger warning: In this episode we mention sexual assault.My Brilliant Friend by Elena Ferrante is available to buy here.Tickets for Sara's tour show I Am A Strange Gloop are available to buy from sarapascoe.co.ukSara’s debut novel Weirdo is published by Faber & Faber and is available to buy here.Cariad’s book You Are Not Alone is published by Bloomsbury and is available to buy here.Cariad’s children's book The Christmas Wish-tastrophe is available to buy now.Follow Sara & Cariad’s Weirdos Book Club on Instagram @saraandcariadsweirdosbookclub and Twitter @weirdosbookclub Recorded and edited by Naomi Parnell for Plosive.Artwork by Welcome Studio.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Sarah Pasco. Hello, I'm Carriad Lloyd. And we're weird about books. We love to read. We read too much. We talk too much. About the too much that we've read. Which is why we've created the Weirdo's Book Club. Join us. A space for the lonely outsider to feel accepted and appreciated. A place for the person who'd love to be in a real book club, but it doesn't like wine or nibbles. Or being around other people. Is that you? Join us. Check out our Instagram at Sarah and Carriad's Weirdo's Book Club for the upcoming books we're going to be discussing. You can read along and share your opinions.

Or just skulk around in your raincoat like the weirdo you are. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you. This week's book guest is My Brilliant Friend by Eleanor Ferranti. What's it about? The conflicted childhood of two best friends in poverty-stricken Italy. What qualifies it for the weirdos book club? Well, these gals are chasing the Greek alphabet more than boys.

In this episode we discuss school, communism, slimy dads, scary dads, writing as freedom. And when names are quite similar. Trigger warning. In this episode, we do briefly mention sexual assault. Welcome, Carrie Ad Lloyd. Welcome, my brilliant friend, Sarah Pasco. That's a pun. Is a pun?

Today's book guest is. My brilliant friend by Eleanor Ferranti. It's a big one. It's a biggie, Sarah Pasco. It's a big one. This is the reason we went into book podcasting, so that we could one day reread, the first in the Neapolitan quadruplechi. Quartet, quartet, quartet, quartet.

Quartet, maybe. Or cordublee. whatever you want to call it. I'm nervous. Are you? Why are you nervous? Because it is like, I feel like it's like talking about great expectations. It's like it's a big book for readers.

But when something is beloved by you as it is, so I don't feel nervous. I feel like this could, this could be an entire series, this could be our entire podcast. We could do it page by page. We could just say, I love it, I love it, I love it for an hour. They could commission us to write a book like they did with George Saunders. Like, you know, he wrote about the Russian short stories. Yes. You have like a swim in the pond in the world.

Yes, yeah. And we could just do like a page and then we write a we write a page. Yes. Well, actually, because I ate the story up so much the first time, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum. Hom, mom, mom, mom. And I think I could now write treaties. How did you put? Treaties.

Treaties on feminism in this book, which I sort of missed the first time. Yes. Just took it for granted. I took it all literally. Okay. Firstly. Yes. Well, whoa, whoa, whoa.

When did you first read this? I was trying to remember. I was university. For me, it was post-uny. I think it didn't come out. It was post-uny. I remember getting the fourth book on the Thursday that it came out at Foyles on South Bank. I remember that moment.

You read it before me. Did I? Yeah, and you told me to read it. So we must have been post-university then. Yeah. We were younger. We were young men. We were different people.

But we still loved to read. And I remember. We were friends. We liked books about friends. Complex friendships. by the way. Complex. Complex.

This book for me is the closest we get to me and you. Oh yeah, and it's giving ourselves a lot of compliments. Sure. I love that.

I don't care. Yeah. With both of them, what is sort of tragic and true is that women undervalue what they have and they overvalue

what they lack. And so both friends are like these so original, so strong, so special, in very difficult circumstances,

is they are excelling, and yet they see themselves as not as good as the other one. And it's so sad that women do that. And I don't know if men do it, because I don't really talk to men. So that's not me saying only women do it. It might be a human thing, but isn't it heartbreaking? So the first time I read it.

I enjoyed it. I loved it. Oh, it goes straight into your top favourite books, right? Whether you have a top 50 or a top 20, it's a top book. But I definitely read it in the like, like you said, like just turn the page, turn the page, what happens, what happens? And then coming back to it in a horrible grey January

as we've just had. I hate the way I say January. January. I like the way you say trousers. Trazes. Because I didn't know to I was older because my mum's from Essex didn't know that you said trousers?

Well you don't. You say trousers in this nice. Trouses or sandwich. Penguin. Do you want penguin biscuit? I can't wait until your Barnet Quartet is published. I put in my trousers as a sandwich. Anyway, I reread it and I couldn't be,

I was a bit nervous at first rereading again. Oh, will I still love it? I also thinking, did I miss remember things? Yes. Because it starts and they're so young. Yeah. And there's this instant with the dolls. That had stayed with me.

That was really intimate. Oh my God, the dolls. So I was going, I don't remember this. I didn't remember the other stuff. But the beginning of that book, dropping the doll down that great, like I could. Walking up dark stairs. Oh, my God. That had stayed to me.

Yeah. And then on this reread, what I want to say to our listeners. Yes. I just couldn't believe how much I loved this reread. I was smiling every page. Yeah. I said just, someone asked me on an airplane, good book. And I went, it's made me glad I've got a book podcast.

because I'm not a rereader. There's so many books in the world. I just would have gone to my life going, yeah, I loved it and not really remembering it. And this reread has actually changed me because I now want to reread lots of books that I loved as much as this one because I think you can.

This is what books are for. This is why people get obsessed with reading. The quality of these fucking words, man. You can't hear them, but they're just every single one. The reality, you don't. feel like someone is telling you a story. You feel like they are describing a part of the world. You don't even hear the work because she's so good. I'm not, like, I'm in, I'm in Italy. I'm gone. Yeah. I'm just there. I'm in the room with her. And then every down again, I'm like, oh, I'm only reading words. I'm not in this flat.

Yeah. Like, what is what? Not in Naples, but I'm like, oh, this is too hot and don't go down the tunnel. Like, I'm just there. So can we talk about the tunnel? Because you just brought it up. And I think, so just in case anyone hasn't read the book. book. If you haven't read it, stop. No, honestly, stop. Press pause. Yeah. Go and order it, read it and come back to us. Like, it's too good a book. In terms of the complexity of the best friendship. Yeah. Lena and Lelu. Yeah. That is, it is a bit confusing. Yes. Lila, Lila. Lila. Lila, yes. Lila and Eleanor. She's Lina to her family, but Eleanor called her Lila. And then the other one is Lenu. So it is Lenu and Lila. Okay. It's a really, really great example of what she does a few times. including the ending, where the massive things happen.

And because she is telling you from her point of view, from Lino's point of view, from Eleanor's point of view, she can't be quite sure of someone else's intentions. They bunk off school. This is Lila's idea. She wants to do it. They've got no money. They've got no way.

It's about, they say they want to go and see the sea. They don't remember seeing the sea or they've never seen the sea before. They're sort of rained off after a very long walk. And her friend gets terrified. and turns around and Ellen is punished by her family but she still is allowed to go to the high school and then she realizes from her friend's reaction she's like they only beat you

they're still going to let you go to school because she's not allowed to go to school she has to go and work in the family business and not going to pay for her education even though she's the brightest person in school by such a huge lot I mean she sounds like a genius doesn't she like a sort of child prodigy

and there's the sadness of her that she just sort of reads in secret. She teaches herself Latin, Greek, English from dictionaries taken from the library. And her friend gets to go to school and the idea that she took on this truancy to get her punished. Yeah. But you don't really know. But you don't know. Because you don't hear from Leela. Yes.

It's from Eleanor's perspective, Lennox. Like sometimes when people are completely anonymous, there is a part of you that's like, oh, I wonder how much is true. You know, and there's sort of semi-memoir books. So you're like, oh, I wonder if that's true of that's based on it. But this, I had no interest in Googling. You know me. Normally I go off and do a Google. I don't care because the writing's so good.

You've satisfied every part of me. That's what I'm trying to say. Like, I don't feel like there's a bit of me when I'm like, oh, what happened to you? But also we know that even if it's based on true events, it's not the truth. It is a novel. It's fictionalised. It's such a good novel that there's not that gap where you're like, well, that plot point didn't make sense. I can only assume it must have been real.

And that's what you're basing this on. Oh, that did really happen to you, which is why me as a reader was left thinking. That's weird that you said that. But it's such a good, it's such a perfect novel. Yeah. It's perfect. So which of the character? Did you identify more with one of the characters?

No, not particularly. That's why I like, that's why I think it's such good writing. Because I think she does that thing as a reader when you're like, I'm both of these people at different times. I found Lila more, I found it so much sadder her story this time. Whereas I think the first time I read it, I just thought she was so incredible. Did you? So aspirational. Yeah, who doesn't want to be a super genius that all the men fancy?

I always found Lila scary. Oh, she's terrifying. Yeah. She's terrifying, but you think that her sort of, you know, that she like just gets a knife out and holds it to her guy's throat. Yeah, I mean, she's a badass. Yeah. She is uncompromising.

Yeah. She's right about everything. Like, you know what? Like, you know what? Like, you go through this phases of like gossip. Your Lila is what you're saying. No, no, I'm not her. I'm not, no.

And I'm Lenny. I'm astonished by her. That's what I was saying. No, no, no, no, no, no. No, no, that wasn't what I was saying. I was saying the first time I read it, I, I was saying. I thought she was so incredible. I hadn't seen the huge sadnesses.

Yeah, she didn't get to go to school. Yeah, yeah. My brain the first time was like, yeah, but she just reads the books in her own time and learns Latin even quicker. And this time I just kept seeing how sad it was. And I found the ending, heartbreaking. Do you think, for me, reading it as a younger woman, I was much more invested in like, what are they going to do?

Who they're going to be? Like you know, like you said, I didn't, I didn't feel that it was sad, particularly what was happening to Leela as an older woman I was much able to see like oh well I can see where your journey is going whereas when I read it as younger I was like oh well okay she's going to do this now but she's a genius

so she'll be fine the limit of choices the limit of choices to both of them in this environment or knowing the consequences being like if you take this consequence now at like 18 well we know where you're going to go like that's the point also we have also read three other books so we do know some of those she goes

and I kept trying not to think about that. Although she does, I completely forgot the beginning that she speaks to the sun at the beginning and that's what I was like,

that didn't happen. I know, yeah. Well, at the very beginning that's like, I was like, I don't remember this book.

Yeah, I don't remember her speaking to Reno. And that really shocked me that that was in there. I was like, but obviously when you're reading it and you don't know

anything about them, it doesn't matter to you that she speaks to Leela's son. Yeah. Like you're just like, oh, whatever. And then obviously you find out

later why that's important. But yeah, there's sadness. But don't you think, that's part of the genius of the writing that Lenu doesn't really realize how sad it is. She does recognise violence. She doesn't recognise.

But she still thinks Steelers got it made. She's like, look at you. You've got everything. Like you've got the husband. You've got the house. Like she doesn't, as a young woman, understand. Like, what everyone understands. Also, she has this lovely childish thing of she was the pretty one and then her friend

gets prettier. Yeah. Yeah. And again, I thought that was so well told because if you have it, yep, she can speak Latin, but I'm the one with blonde hair and boobs. And then it's like, uh-oh, something's happened to my friend. Maybe that's where it felt much more like an older woman reflecting on what a child thought. Because I don't remember looking at friends in quite such a detailed way as that she looks.

I mean, I guess it's because she's in love with her. Yeah. Do you think she's in love with her? She talks about her boobs a lot. But I think that to me came... And her beauty. That came across as like... She waits for her ankles to like get beautiful.

She's like, she's all nice apart from her ankles. Oh, now her ankles are nice as well. But it came across as like a novelist's... I. So I didn't feel like, I know what you mean, like she is obsessed with her, but it's also you can tell that Lido is obsessed with her as well. Like they're both obsessed with you. Oh, it's beautiful.

There are moments, I mean, there's only a couple of them where you then realize what Eleanor means to her. And there's the one where she says, I love him more than I love my mom and my daughter. She's talking about her fiancé. I love him more than I love my mom and my dad. But not as much as I love you. And she doesn't know if she's joking or not because she's never sort of, yeah, never said it. And that beautiful letter.

I mean, that's the other thing about Lila is how incredible she's as a writer. She writes this little story, the Blue Fairy, when they're like, okay, let's write our version of little women and become really, really rich. Oh, my God. And it feels like writing is a way out. And obviously, for Ele Farante, it was and is. I really want us to go to Positano. That's our plan.

We've been planning that for eight years. But then now what we'll do is, how about this? Every six months, we read one of the quartet. And then for the last one, we'll do a live recording. And the Positano Hotel. Shouldn't we be in Naples if we're going to... It's very nearby. It's not.

But we're talking about Positana was right next to Naples. I found the quote, which is after they've gone for this long walk, I've taken the day of school. All they did was beat you. What should they have done? They're still sending you to study Latin. I looked at her in bewilderment. Was it possible?

She had taken me with her hoping that as a punishment my parents would not send me to middle school. Or had she brought me back in such a hurry so that I would avoid that punishment. Or, I wonder today, did she want at different moments, both things. But that's what I think she does so well, female tension, which I don't think, like so many books are sold to you

is like they hate each other, they love each other, or they hate each other and they learn to love each other. Or they hate and love each other but in quite unrealistic ways. Or it becomes a complete acceptance. It's like, oh,

these women don't like each other and then they learn completely to forgive everything. Whereas I think she constantly remind you that they love and sometimes hate each other. Or that you, yeah,

someone can be your best friend and it can be so hard. When Leela can't read her writing, when she's written that article to give to Nino, to be published, and Leela puts her hand on her forehead and says, it hurts. She says, I don't want to read anything else you've written.

She says, it hurts me, puts her open hand on her forehead. It's much, much harder when someone very close to you has things that you don't. Then it is to just go, oh, that person over there has this easy thing or they're really clever, or they've got really nice clothes.

It's hard when it's going. And that's what to me, that's what feels much more sisterly than some other books that I've read. Yes, I was just thinking that. We've been talking a lot about sister books. Obviously, some of us have the male sisters in our life,

the brothers. And this for me is the closest I've experienced of it of like that extraordinarily close female friendship that always feels like men don't understand. And you know what it's like when you're trying to, like, or a man would be like, oh, why are you so annoyed? You're like, you don't understand.

I think what this book. does really cleverly, and also that men don't understand, is that in the backwards and forwardsing at school age between these two are the tightest, these two are the tightest, okay, this person's now connected with this person over this detail, for instance, whether it's menstruation or liking a boy or something, and how hurtful that is to the rejected parties, and then how it can all swing round again.

They do so well. They're ostracising, the slight ostracising, that girls are able to do to each other, just so painful. Because their insecure bodies, literally, not bodies like insecure agents. So women are insecure agents. So when they find another that makes them feel less insecure, the bond is very strong

because you feel like such a alien. So someone else being like, no, no, you're not an alien. I have also done this. And it reminds me the scene in Clueless when Dion has had sex and Ty has as well. Do you remember? And then they're like talking about it. And Cher is like, oh, she loses her best friend

because she's still a virgin. And it's like, she's like, oh yeah, have you ever done this? Have you ever done this? And it's like, you can see, Those girls need it in like it's important to them. But yeah, because you then feel like a piece of shit, you then feel more like a piece of shit. Yeah, it's as good as Cleolest.

I wanted to read The Shoes. Yeah. Did you like the descriptions of the shoes? I love that part of her genius is that she can design shoes like no one else. Yeah. These shoes that they try to make. But then I love that also Eleanor starts realizing that they are, Hollywood shoes.

Like it's a dream. Nothing will be as good as these drawings. Like they can't... And her brother's, you know, not being able to make the shoe in the way that... Well, it's that... So, Leila has such brains

that she knows, for her to get what she wants, she needs to get her brother on side. So she spends all of this time basically getting her brother to have a passion for going against their father's wishes and making these shoes

that she's designed and this will be a way out. And then she realized she's created a beast she can't control anymore because her brother is now so desperate for money. Yeah.

And then she sort of goes, no interest in it. Don't want to ever come into the shop again. I know. Don't want to look at them. The way leader gives stuff up is very painful. Yeah. The way she just, it's done. And she's so firm about it.

I'm not going to school. But because it hurts her. Yeah, but it's very painful because I feel much more of a Lenny where you're like, what I thought that's what we, I didn't know, that was an option. Yeah. I didn't know an option to walk away. She writes this story. It's incredible.

Her teacher is a bit sneering about it and snooty. And so then she thinks, I'll never write again and doesn't. Painful. Yeah, that's what I mean. So with the shoes, she goes, okay, this plan isn't going to work. And actually, I think with all of the plans, she wants to go to school, she can't go. She thinks of writing. She thinks of shoemaking.

Eventually she goes, okay, so it's just going to be marrying the richest, nicest man in the neighbourhood. I'm just going to be a wife. I'll be a great wife. Lila has been going on about the shoes. And Lenu is starting to get across about it. And she's looking for this conversation that they used to have. She says, I felt grieved at the waste because I was compelled to go away because she preferred the adventures of the shoes to our conversation

because she knew how to be autonomous, whereas I needed her, because she had things that I couldn't be a part of. Because Pasquale, who was a grown-up, not a boy, certainly would seek other occasions to gaze at her and plead with her and tried to persuade her secretly to be his girlfriend. And then she said, because in short, she would feel that I was less and less necessary. And it's that thing like we said, the insecurity of the, friendship, even though they do love each other.

They do. But it seems so fragile and volatile. And she sometimes presumes a disinterest in Leela. When she does go to Ishiya and she's writing to her all the time and getting no reply, we're sort of led to believe, along with her. It's because her friend doesn't care, her friend doesn't miss her. Her life carries on. She is autonomous.

And then when she does write a letter, it's like she has been having the most terrible time. And you have been going to the beach every day, getting paid. And sunbathing and flooding. and flirting and having this amazing time. And also having another adult in your life who isn't your family telling you you're brilliant and well-behaved and all of those kind of things. And Lila is having a harder life than her.

Lila definitely has a hard life. But when she gets thrown out of the window by her dad and breaks her arm, I mean, this is a really violent place and they are, for good reason, scared of their parents. And the fact that Eleanor Ferranti is able to suddenly tie in that, oh, when this is, this is, fascism is still alive. people who are really suffering after the Second World War

and it must be quite soon after the Second World War Yeah, it's sort of like There's only one TV in the village so It's the aftermath and then you've got the new breed of young money that is also corrupt and is also doing these horrible things And yet you know you've got this incredible life in this village And this absolute you know camaraderie that they all have with each other

And they all understand like every time they go into Bosch Naples And they realize how different and like That girl in the Green Beret Oh my God. they have a fight with her and her boyfriend. I know. That was horrible. Yeah. I found that really horrible.

But also that Eleanor is still, she captures so well that crossover of leaving, of leaving somewhere, of like, because she does make the choice to stay at school. Every time she stays on a year, she's removing herself from these people. She's constantly choosing to remove herself. But with no real sense of what her future could be. I mean, she doesn't ever get carried away. No, but I feel like there's something with Ellen where you know that she, she doesn't know, but she knows she's getting out of there. Yeah. And that's also what I'm.

You think she does know? Yeah, because you can't keep taking those school grades. Like you said, like you're wasting time. She could be getting a job and earning money and getting married and having a nice house and nice dresses and doing all the stuff that Leader does. And the fact that she doesn't do that, I think she's slightly doing that obtuse younger woman or younger person thing where it's like, oh no, I'm just going to school. And it's like, but when you live in that roughen area, there's a part of you that is distancing yourself. And I think that's also what makes Leela angry because every time you take on a year,

you are leaving me. Like, I am going to be a wife and you're not. Like, what do you think will happen at the end of this? I think she's sort of not thinking about it, but it's there. We told each other everything, even the little things, and we're happy. I was like, that is their friendship. Like, that is them. The line I loved so much about them was about them talking

because they wanted to understand things and how, I was like, okay, that is, that is young girls' conversations. And the only reason I say young girls is that they have more time to have them. Yeah, we don't have time anymore. Not because we don't want to have them. I'd say that where I thought Lila was like you, with the dancing, with the rock and roll dancing and the jumping up to dancing and even dancing with her enemy, not really seeing who their hand was attached to because she just wanted to dance.

I did feel her vibes then. There are so many moments where she's writing about a different point in history and a different country to where I grew up and people I haven't met. But this kind of sentence, and I was like teenagers are the same. They're all in the car. They've just had this fight. Oh, yeah, yeah. We made the journey like that with Gigliola and Micheli kissing each other in front of us. I looked at her and she, though kissing passionately, looked at me.

Teenage girls sitting on her boyfriend's lap in the car, looking at the girl in the back while hanging her boyfriend. It's like, around the world. Around the world. Oh, to a fight. Absolutely unoriginal. We should talk about Donato, Saratore. That's horrible. Horrible little mustache, horrible, manipulative.

And this is the trouble with people who are slothed. cleverer or slightly more charming. And he's like a metaphor for bad education. But also, yes, hate the violence, but there's an honesty to the violence. Right. Sorry to sound one key. But people who don't have to be violent because they can manipulate in other ways. What a pig, sweaty mustache. But don't you think, like, he's such, you know, Eleanor holds him up in such high regard.

He's a poet. He's a published also. He's published. And, you know, he is education. what happens with education when it's not for any purpose. And, you know, so I think he's a really interesting character that you have Nino, who she clearly, you know, loves. That's the Ben character.

Ben plays him in my head when I read this. Yeah, definitely. That's definitely my husband's. And also Darcy-esque, I got on this read, which I didn't notice last time. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, that's true, because he... He's horrible. He can't bring himself to, like, have a normal conversation with her, even if he clearly adores her, but it doesn't know how to say.

Yeah, we sort of know enough to know that he does adore her, which forgives his behaviour. But he's an arrogant young man. He's like an arrogant young man. But also in competition with her. Yeah, that's true. That's true. And one would be happier if she was more like, tell me how you do this.

But then the fact that the father comes along, who is this, everything that we kind of see Eleanor looking up to and then does this despicable thing. And I thought she did such a good job of like, conjuring that being a young girl and something happening at that, which is so complex. Yeah. It's not a horrible man who she doesn't know on the bus.

It's not someone's shoving a hand up your scalp. It's confusing. It's horrific. And it is an assault. It's a molestation of someone you feel utterly safe with and she just doesn't see it coming. Whereas you as a reader do. Yes. But also the way it's done in that like he's hanging out with her.

Everyone loves him. He's praised her. And he loves his wife. He loves his wife. And then he just, he comes down to her bedroom at night and says like, oh. She doesn't have a bedroom. She's in the kitchen. So she's like so vulnerable.

But he even says like, oh, I know you want this. Like you, the way you've been looking at me. And it's just. so gross and so horrific. And I know he's probably only 35 or 36, but like a grown man, she's 14 or about to turn 15 in her swimming costume thinking about boys.

She doesn't know to be scared of men. And she doesn't, she, that's the thing, the way he speaks to as if like, you know what you were doing. And it's like, she has no fucking clue. No,

she was just charmed when you wanted to speak to her or listens to her. Because she wants to be a writer. And it's that thing of being a teen, I thought she captured that teenage girlness so well when you, you're so lost in grown-up world but yet you're in grown-up world

and you are still acting like you would have done as a six-year-old girl. So a six-year-old girl would run around a swimming costume and not thought twice about it and suddenly you're 15 and you're doing something by walking in a swimming costume but you have no idea what you've done and it's so horrific when men are

when you get manipulative men like that and it's so fucking being a parent with a daughter you know, it's just that thing of like oh how do you, when do you have this conversation of like oh there's just these gross people in the world that will make you be a grown-up

in a way that you when you know that that person doesn't even have the brain to understand what's happening yet. It's so I thought she captured that I found that much more painful reading that this time. It was the first time I was like, oh gross, he's horrible. It was this time I was like, you fuck, I get the fuck away from her. Yeah,

you don't think, oh God, he's going to murder you. It's not that kind of danger. It's more just like, you just stole something from a child. And then she can't look at Nino and she doesn't want to kiss anyone else. And she doesn't, she can't talk to anyone about it. I can't believe she doesn't tell, Lila. Yeah.

That made me sad. But I think if Lila didn't have so much going on in her life, she might have done. Yeah. That made me sad. Yeah. It's that thing of like when people are, like you said under these extremeic circumstances. So then there's no room. There's no room for.

It's something as big as this. But then I did wonder what Lila would say. I don't know what Lila would say. No, exactly. And I think. Unless you might have taken a night. Several times she keeps information from Lila. because she doesn't know how safe it is.

When she still has that boyfriend for a little bit towards the end and they're sort of making out. Yeah, yeah. Oh, when she discovers that Leela's not doing anything with her boyfriend. Yeah. And she asks her like, oh, when you go for drives, do you do stuff? And she's like, no, just kissing. Yeah, but she's like, no, we're not married yet.

Yeah. No, no. Yeah. And again, I thought it's such an interesting choice that it's the one who's still at school, the one who's educated. Not, but it's like, but Leela has more to lose by doing that. You know, Lila can't be like, well, I'm going to go to school. I'm going to go to university.

Lina's like, no, no, he's my husband. I'm living in the village. But also there's a reclamation. When someone's taken something from you or touched you in a way, using your body in a way where you do enjoy is a way of sort of reclaiming. Yes, I guess. And also it's like... About what you do want.

Yeah. Yeah, because she's feeling so much shame of her own body. So then it's like, oh, well, what does it matter? And she doesn't have shame. Is it Alfonso? They like each other so much. Can we talk about Nino and the ending? Based on something Lila had said a year and a half previously.

She has an argument with a religious teacher. and then Nina asked her if she wants to write up what happened with her with this exchange. And obviously, yeah, Nina had seen her crying in the corridor, a communist teacher had found out and got the teacher to let her back in. She had argued something politically against religion. And then she spends ages and ages and ages writing this article. And the idea that it would be a byline with her name on it in print that she could show to her family is the most exciting thing that happens to her potentially in the book,

much more exciting than any boys, much more exciting than a holiday. and she sees him at Leela's wedding right at the end and then he says, and it's sort of clear he didn't hand it in and when she when she hands it to him he reads it and he's jealous of her and he says, oh the teacher's right, you are, you do write better than me and that's not really a compliment. No, it's not said in a complimentary way. No.

And then we just feel that Nina is also from obviously the same place, the same background. He hates his father and he is trying to escape something. So someone who is brighter than him hurts him too. But also, like you said, he doesn't fight with his fists, but he's fighting in a different way. So you see the dishonesty that she has not given him. And so while the author doesn't tell us explicitly, what we have is the sadness of those two brilliant women at the end of this book. One of them is now married and she's been explicit about someone she doesn't want at the wedding and he walks in and she is powerless. That was horrific.

I know. And at the same time as Eleanor. Solaris turned up. Yeah. Marcello and Michelle. Yes. And then Nino says, oh yeah,

there wasn't room. Yeah, it comes out next week. And he hasn't brought it up at all and she asks and it, yeah, it wasn't room for your thing. And so she's just sitting there.

And they're both, and that's why I think so feminist about it is they have such limited power in a world of men. When the men had no power either. Yeah. But they have more than them. Leela looks across,

doesn't she? She's like, and that looks where she pales. She pales. Yeah, because she realizes it's too late. Yeah, I'm married.

I'm now the wife. Exactly. I don't have the wielding power. I've got nothing. He lied and he's wearing the shoes, the fucking shoes. And you're like... The shoes she made that sat in the window and they were symbolic of who got her.

And for him to turn up wearing them, it's this double fingers up, you just lost all of your power. Or whatever power you thought you had because so many men were in love with you. And because he's so wounded that she wouldn't marry him. Like the wound he has over that. Like that was also...

Not getting what he wants. Yeah. And also that he's a wrecked. That's one of the things that we know is that they dragged a girl away in the car, like this girl from the neighbourhood. And again, the way that Eleanor Ferrante writes about it in that the girl gets out of the car sort of laughing and that they'd picked a girl whose father was dead, whose mother was mad, whose brother is now going to have to go, you know, defend her. The politics of the whole thing. So when he is wooing Lila, she's like, you're a monster, I know what you are. There's two different ways.

One is the way that their family have made their money. and then the other thing is what they have done to local girls and actually because they're scared of her and she is someone that they can't just take. But her behaviour against him is, I find that shocking this time round. Like how much she's like, no. Yeah. When you said she doesn't have power and she, like that to me felt,

it was part of me who I was like, just marry him, just marry him. Her parents want her to marry him, her dad. The brother wants to marry. And he's coming around to her house every day. Bys the television. Yeah, having dinner. He buys them the first TV in the neighbourhood. And she's like, see you later.

Yeah. And she just sits there quietly and she's respectful and she doesn't know how to get out. She has to go and find another man to make herself safe against a man. That's the only way to protect yourself. Yeah. And like, again, if it wasn't for her tenacity and like strength. Like the people that she stands up, like standing up to her mum and dad and that brother. To be like, I'm not marrying this incredibly rich.

Like, she is a force. But that's what's so sad because she's a force. But even it still doesn't work. It still doesn't. mean that you're going to be happy. But then isn't that life. That's why I love it so much. Because I mean like the complexity of it.

She's not giving you any solutions. She's not making, tying anything up with a bow. She's just trying to show you, well, this is what life is like. Yeah. I think that's, this is why it's the difference between like, oh, that was a fun reason. Like, this is great writing is she is not trying to go. And then that person won. And they are good friends and terrible friends at exactly the same time.

And I think that's what most people experience life to be like. but see there are these wonderful moments and you do I think you really understand why they're friends like that's what I mean it's not just like oh it's really hard to be friends with the girl it's like no no there's times when you see they're the only people that understand each other but that's quite difficult

that's also a difficult position to have with somebody I haven't seen the adaptation well I was going so it's on now TV okay I might watch it but I didn't watch it I mean they've done full series of it I know so they have like done it yeah I've heard people say it's good but I sort of don't want my book ruined.

Yeah, but also, that's the, if people want to watch it because they don't read, I understand, but it definitely can't be as good as a book. Have you read any further books? No, I haven't. I've only read these. So she's got novellas that are earlier, where it's almost like prototype of certain stories in the quartet. It's very Jane Austen.

Yes. And then The Lying Life of Adults, which I think is afterwards. Yeah, that came afterwards after the success of this one, didn't it? It's more explicit about what it feels like to be a child hearing about the adult world true adulthood, that you're not protected from adulthood. While you have absolutely no, I guess, framework of understanding for some things, or you're trying to gain understanding. And then they made another film, Livia Coleman.

Lost Daughter, that's it, yeah, yeah. I think I've read all of them because I just became a greedy little Ferrantai Hogg. She loves her. Just wanted more and more. Just wanted more and more. And we should say, it's always we're saying, such a good translation. Because we're feeling all this and it's not. Such a good translation.

Anne Goldstein, congratulations. I said it was a really funny scene in this. So Leila's been going to the library, but she has four library cards. So she has three for her mom and her dad and her brother so that she can borrow four books at a time. And then she reads them and she brings them all back. And so then the library does prizes for the biggest readers in the neighbourhood. And it's like first place, her mom, second place, her dad, third place her brother, fourth place her. She can't read.

And then Eleanor gets fifth place. And obviously none of Leela's family are at the ceremony. I thought that was so funny. I think that's the other thing she captures so well. Like someone, like the cuckoo of like she's in the wrong family. And the parents are just looking, going, but who are you? Yeah. Like you're this beautiful girl who should just marry this very rich man who buys her parent to television.

Yes. Live in the house down the road for him. And he occasionally beats you up and he's corrupt and you get on with it. And it just her arrogance are asking for more, I think, is galling to everybody. And it's again, don't you know who you are? don't you know where you're from? But that's the thing. She's not even asking for that much as well.

And again, like you said, she then gives up because she knows it's too big a fight to continue to be educated. But it's not too big a fight to make sure you're in a house with someone that you trust. But the other thing I thought about Lila is like, she's so fucking clever, but she's not clever enough. Like that decision to, like you said, to switch the men, I'll go with this one. This one's safe.

This one's going to look after me. And then I think what's heartbreaking about the end of like, You couldn't play this system. Yeah. You thought you could. I think it was limited choices. It's like, I thought, yeah. It was that or that, wasn't it?

But there's a certainness to her decision that she's, she's, I'm going to be fine. Yeah. I have got myself out of it. As long as I'm not marrying a Salara, I'm going to be fine. Yeah. And I think that's what Eleanor has that she doesn't have. It's that slight understanding that, no, this whole system is fucked. Like, you will never win this system.

Yes. And I think that's what's. so painful is that leader, because she's street smart, there's a feeling that somehow she'll figure, she's going to be all right. And like her, like you said, she pales. She doesn't get a knife out and scream because she's like, oh, this is fat. Like I'm married now. This is fat. I can't, I can't just turn around and scream my way out of this or fight my way out of this. This is just my life. And that's what, well, we know from the rest of the books. Like that moment for Lee is, it's kind of the flame going out a little bit, isn't it? Because it's like, there's no other option.

whereas Eleanor can keep studying, can keep getting out of there. But that's impossible choice. And actually, in terms of Eleanor's parents, and they're not in any way perfect, and she's very scared of her mom. And I think her mom is very scared of her in terms of her brightness and her making different choices. But they do allow her to carry on being educated. They do at times have to find money for her education.

They do allow the teacher to send her away, for instance, for that summer. They're kinder than leaders' parents. But they do understand wanting the best for her. I love with Leila that she is this super genius who can do really difficult maths in her head and learn the Greek alphabet, but she also just like loves clothes and shoes and Hollywood magazines. And there's that brief spell of time where she's giving everyone really detailed relationship advice. Like she hasn't started her periods yet.

Yeah, I love that. And I also love that you have a friend who's like, what the fuck is going on? I'm all listening to her. But also that the first person she did it for was Eleanor. And then she gave her such good advice And in that moment It's like oh my God And I had all of her attention

I really love telling her The story And then she sees her like going around With everyone else It's like Oh, I wasn't special She just like telling people what to do They talk about Dido like

They talk about women in the magazines I know It made me think we should probably Read the Iliad one day For the podcast I've read the I'm sorry People just won't know What you're talking about

They won't know If I'd had a Kindle They'll just be reading it on their phones In tweets In tweets Someone's saying about John Kearns A stand up And he's got a thing

He was talking on stage about what films, if they're on, you have to watch to the end. He was turned on the TV and Tricanac was on, so he watched it to the end. And he said to the audience, if it's on, what film do you have to finish? And a young person said, who put it on? Oh, my God. Who put it on? The tell you put it on. It's just on the TV.

Yeah, they don't know. My mum texts me said, oh, if you're bored, because it's raining, Minions is on ITV. And I had to say, she said, did you watch you? Oh, because you're kids, didn't I think you? Not for me. Not just for me. No, it's for the kids. Because she was like, you know, they're difficult at something because it's raining.

And when I saw her next, she said, did you watch it? I said, Mama, I could watch it at 3 in the morning. I can watch it any time I want. It's not. Minions on tap, mate. But that's exactly what the John Kern's thing is. A different generation. Oh, it's on.

Yeah, she was excited. She was like, oh, that's good. The kids got said to do. Like Christmas, looking at radio time, is going, what time is everything on? Yeah. We watch terrestrial Christmas TV because, My daughter wanted to watch the Strictly Christmas special. Oh, yeah.

So we ended up watching like Wallace and Gombett then Strictly or whatever order it was. And halfway through Christmas Strictly, she said, oh, can we fast forward this bit? And I was like, no, you've chosen terrestrial. Yeah. Outraged, absolutely outrage. Who won? Maybe Nitro from Gladiators. That's all they cared about was Gladiators.

Oh, yeah. That's all they cared about Nitro. I can recommend Gladiator's epic pranks. Podcast. No, not just amazing Gladiator's podcast. Contended Ready. But also Nitro. has injured himself.

So they've given him like a kid's prank TV show because he must still be on contract. We strayed into other podcasts, don't you? And they just do pranks. And Nitro is absolutely brilliant. Oh, okay. He's so good.

Yeah. Yeah, it's gone down very well in my household. This is what Elefranto would want us to be talking about. Oh, that's why she stopped writing books. She's just doing next Christmas gladiators. She wants to do the Eliminator.

We all want to do the Eliminator. I wouldn't know how much they slow it down for the celebrities, though. No, they didn't. I watch all the episodes. They definitely slowed it down. No, they didn't. And then they speed it up again on TV.

My big takeaway with exceptional writers is that you should reread them. And that to read them once and go, I know the story is to actually miss out. Yes. And I'm a person who likes novelty and more books on my shelves. Yeah, the dopamine of the more book. And perhaps I need it more than anyone. This has been a big therapy. I hope you break through for both of us.

Both of us. I was a bit surprised at how brilliant it was. Do you know what I mean? I knew it was brilliant. Yeah. But the level of brilliance. But I think it was voted number one book of the century. Best book of the century by the New York Times.

Yeah. I mean, imagine that. Imagine getting that email from your editor. Well, I sat down to reread it. And I was thinking, like I said, I was like, oh God, I hope this, I hope it doesn't disappoint me because I loved it so much. And then I saw number one best book of the century in New York Times. I thought, well, you'd be pretty arrogant. Carry out if it disappoints you.

since the rest of the world disagreed. It's so good. Should we do the next one then? Yes, I would really like to. I'll get the names right. Yeah. Yeah, story of a new name. Oh, I just remembered how great that one is.

Okay, I'll catch up. We'll do the next one. We'll do it for. Yeah. So let's read Story of a New Name. Yeah. And then they've got time to catch up. Yeah, great.

Bye. Bye. Thank you for listening to Weirdo's Book Club. I'm on tour this year. Tickets for my show. I am a strange gloop. I am a strange gloop. from sarah pascoe.com.

You can find out about all the upcoming books we're going to be discussing on our Instagram. Please do head there, follow us, and let us know what you are reading at Sarah and Carriad's Weirdo's Book Club. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you.