Sara & Cariad's Weirdos Book Club - My Favourite Mistake by Marian Keyes with Marian Keyes

Episode Date: April 18, 2024

This week's book guest is My Favourite Mistake by Marian Keyes.Sara and Cariad are joined by the phenomenal, internationally bestselling author Marian Keyes herself to discuss female friendships, silence, perfect men and carbs! Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you!My Favourite Mistake by Marian Keyes is available to buy here or on Apple Books here.You can find Marian on Instagram: @marian_keyes and Twitter: @mariankeyesSara’s debut novel Weirdo is published by Faber & Faber and is available to buy here.Cariad’s book You Are Not Alone is published by Bloomsbury and is available to buy here.Follow Sara & Cariad’s Weirdos Book Club on Instagram @saraandcariadsweirdosbookclub and Twitter @weirdosbookclub Recorded and edited by Naomi Parnell for Plosive.Artwork by Welcome Studio.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Sarah Pasco. Hello, I'm Carriad Lloyd. And we're weird about books. We love to read. We read too much. We talk too much. About the too much that we've read. Which is why we've created the Weirdo's Book Club.

Join us. A space for the lonely outsider to feel accepted and appreciated. A place for the person who'd love to be in a real book club, but doesn't like wine or nibbles. Or being around other people. Is that you? Join us. Check out our Instagram at Sarah and Carriad's Weirdos Book Club for the upcoming books we're going to be discussing. You can read along and share your opinions.

Or just skulk around in your raincoat like the weirdo you are. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you. This week's book guest is my favourite mistake by Marion Keys. What's it about? Well, Anna is a woman in her late 40s with an enviable life, an apartment in New York, a job in beauty PR, but the trouble is she doesn't want it anymore.

What qualifies it for the Weirdo's Book Club? Well, Anna is complex, flawed and perimenopausal, the perfect weirdo heroine. In this episode, we discussed. Sephora. Female friendships. Silence. Perfect men. And Cubs.

And joining us this week is Marianne Keyes. Marion is a global bestselling author. She's sold over 30 million copies and her books have been translated into 33 languages. She's an incredible guest and we're very excited to have her. Welcome to the podcast. We're so excited. We're so excited. We're normally both in the truth, but we're both fit scared.

Let's make it together. Welcome to the podcast, Marian Keyes. I feel like we're so very excited we're having you here. Thank you for having me. It's really lovely to be here. I feel like we've booked a pop star. Yeah, that's why I feel like. Oh, please, George, pop star.

Yeah. Because this is a book podcast and you're a pop star in this book world. You're so nice. You're not Madonna. Yeah, I am not Madonna. And we're a few episodes in and we've got Madonna. Who do you like to be from the pop world? Oh, my God.

I mean, I'm just... It's too big a question. No, I'm just trying to find somebody... Oh, unimpressive enough. I know. We need an impressive person. Humble. Yeah.

You can't be because you've sold over 30 million copies of your books. And they've been translated into 33 languages. I think you're right. It might be Madonna. No, it's definitely not Madonna. No, because I don't feel like that person. Yeah, yeah. I don't feel like the person who's sold, those books have been sold.

Yeah, yeah. It really doesn't sit comfortably with me. Yeah. Do you feel like, this is a big question, like do you feel like if you have to keep hold of the feeling of like separating that so you can maintain your writing? Do you feel like if you start believing that person going down that, it's like you lose Marion who writes these books?

The thing is, I don't think about that version of me, partly because I feel like I don't deserve it, I don't believe it. And I don't want to think that I deserve it. That's what it is. Because nobody deserves anything. Anything we're given by the universe. We're lucky to have it. We can't start believing that it's ours.

And I write because I love writing. I love telling people's stories. And this sounds arrogant and strange, but I write for myself. I write the kind of books I'd like to read. And that's the way, the best way for me to serve any potential readers. Like what I write is for me, authentic, rather than thinking, oh, I've sold all those books

and they were those kind of books, so I have to keep doing that in order to keep. it would be a very, it's a corrupting process, I think, if we start writing for the market that we think is ours. I think that's what I mean of like you have to, like that has to be a fact. You have had this amazing success, but it just has to be over there

so that you can keep on writing the books you would like to read. One of the things, and I really love that you've already sort of brought this up, in terms of the books that you would want to read, is that with the character of Anna... From your new book, my favourite mistake. Which we're about to talk about. The character of Anna,

in your new book, I felt like you were doing so many women a massive favour. Thank you. Even just so this, I'm just going to pick out of the air. Oh yeah, sure. What she eats? Oh yeah. She's toasties, muffins, Nutella on toast. There's a woman eating carbs every couple of pages.

And it's then you realise how hungry all of your characters are. And so many of the books that you read when you think either it's not relevant, as in the writer didn't think it was relevant what they were having. Or it's someone denying themselves rather than just. having a normal diet and it being nice. Yeah, I mean Anna says, you know, we're here for a good time, not a long time. And she doesn't want her life to be more miserable by having to do protein the whole time. You know, she eats comfort foods and she doesn't care that she's 48 and she should be at the fish oils and, you know, balancing things.

I liked that about her as well. Thank you very much. Thanks, Sarah. There were so many things. I wrote a list of them. So perimenopause. Yeah. So being in your 40s and on the cusp of it, that isn't a place where we get to meet lots of characters.

No, I'm just talking about it. Yeah. With them on that journey. And I completely agree with you, like reading it felt very refreshing because it did feel like, oh, these are the conversations we are having. And the big thing for me was the makeup, the beauty. Well, I was going to say, so Anna's job. I'm obsessed. So she's a PR for cosmetic brand.

Yeah, high-end-trained bands. Because we haven't discussed the book in real life because we try not to be professional. But would that be your, if you could do another job, if you had to quit comedy and writing? I could do the, I mean, as we were said, like, I could get a job in space NK like this. Like, I could work on the floor and they wouldn't know I wasn't officially there. A member of staff. Yeah, like, I could probably work there for a couple of days before someone's like, is she meant to be here?

I know so much. But I'm more the skincare obsession than I am the makeup. But I do follow you on Instagram for all the, she does some amazing Instagram. Oh, you're so fantastic. It's a passion of yours as well. The funny thing is, in maybe the last couple of years, or maybe even a year, I've sort of lost the passion for it. I'm really, really sorry. I mean, it'll probably come back. You're having a moment away. Yeah. But like until that point, it brought me so much pleasure.

Yeah. Like so much excitement and delight and joy. And seriously, four years ago, just before the start of the pandemic, I had one day off work in London. And I was exhausted. And I thought I should really go to. bed and sleep and instead I got the Eurostar to Paris and I went to Sephora. You know, that's, that's who I was. Sephora, I would have, I have been known to, yeah, I've had to be physically dragged out of Sephora by my husband. Yeah, he's just like, this is enough. Twin Flames, that's us. And I've gone on holiday specifically to cities, yeah, well, for Sephora as well, yeah. I've gone for the Paris for the French pharmacies and I have a favourite French pharmacy. Oh, we'll have to discuss. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. It's just so good. They've got everything. It's just so, oh. But you say you've lost, You lost your passion. I've lost fashion and cosmetics. You know, like before we started talking, you talked about my blue jumper. Like, I live in this blue jumper. I hate taking it off. And that's just where I'm at at the moment.

My kind of, my passion for beautiful things has sort of shifted to interiors. Oh, you've gone that way. Yeah, I could do a mastermind special on curtains. Like, I absolutely could. I've had to restrain the interior because I think, yeah, I've got two small kids so I just, I can't kind of indulge in what I would like it to look like

so I think I'm keeping the flame focus on... Wait until they go to university. Skincare and makeup. And when they've gone... So quickly, they won't have a bedroom. They won't have a bedroom. They're like before their trains got to Manchester. Yeah, they don't have a bedroom, that's mine.

That's Mommy's Office. Virginia Woolf's got a point, mate, and it's happening. But I completely understand that. And that's what I loved again about Anna, that she talks about it, references it and there's no embarrassment about it because I have I mean we've only really talked about it recently I kept it very secret unless people started talking about brands I'm like oh are you into brands like we can have a chat about it by the way you're like oh yeah me just put moisturise on pleasure in general and food comes under this definitely you know little dopamine habits

like cosmetics and makeup or fashion is that you know that phrase is like oh my guilty pleasure oh please that is the worst it is because what what is taken as red is this is a thing you're doing that's wrong. Yeah. Sometimes authors write characters where they're showing them as toxic traits or Yeah. On beauty is seen as, like if you're into skin,

it's seen as frivolous and pointless and vain. Rather than pleasure. Just joy. Just real joy. But that's because we live in a patriarchy. I'm sorry to say that. No, no.

No, but you know, like the things that are regarded as, you know, respectable, you know, that it's okay to like them are all seen through the you know, to the prism of the male gaze.

And like, you know, why would cosmetics be regarded as something valuable? Yeah. When, you know, they don't use it. Whereas like, 22 men running after a ball in a field, that is regarded as hard news. You know, and it is simply to do with what we're told. And one of the great things about having gotten older is that I think nobody gets to tell me anymore, you know, what is okay to like and not like. and the whole thing about guilty pleasure it's used to shame people

you know it's a version of snobbery and it really makes me sad when people say that they like this or they like that and they go oh that's just my guilty pleasure it's like no love that there is nothing to be ashamed of I think there was a double pronged attack on those kind of things because with feminism there

can be this misunderstanding so telling women that there's something wrong with them they need to change that is problematic but women choosing something that makes them feel lovely or having some time to spend on themselves, that isn't problematic. Because I think that's something I myself didn't understand

was that for some women make up and things was about, you know, having a deep breath. This is who I am. This is where I am. This is how I express myself. A cleansing balm routine. Yes. And until I watched drag race, I didn't understand any of it.

Because actually that's the thing about men of cosmetics. Some men really get it. Yes, of course, of course, yes. Yeah. But we all carry our own. internalised misogyny. Like it's very hard not to. Yeah. And I read that quote you said when you would, I think it was in Edinburgh book festival when you were talking about chicklet and, you know, how we don't have the phrase dicklet. And I was like, God, like I, I remember when we came out

of university, that's when chicklet was a thing. It was absolutely a category. And I worked in a bookshop and you'd have the chicklet section, which basically just meant books written by women, which had brighter colours. And we would have to stack them. And I, having done in English, degree was so snobby about those books and was so keen to be like oh i would never read them like take me seriously and again as i got older and when i was reading that interview with you i was like where had that come from that i was like oh i can't read books by someone on my own gender who were writing about my issues like i would have been ashamed to say oh i'm reading that and it's just ridiculous but i feel like we are moving away from that i feel like we are very much moving to celebrating

these writers who have had amazing success which is why i think it is worth mentioning your because if it was a man that would be incredible. But the commercial success was the reason that there needed to be a sort of denigrating term on the books. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it couldn't just be sort of like literary smashes. Well, you were saying, when there was like four Irish women writers at that time. So you and Cecilia Hearn and there was another one who were all doing like incredibly well. Yeah, Cathy Kelly.

Yeah. And it was just like as if that was an anomaly of like, oh, how strange these four women are doing that. Well, I'm like, isn't that? Wow, bloody how. These women writers from Ireland are like global. successful. But is it such a trick, it's such a smoke and mirrors trick. Because I think when you're younger, that's what I was like, oh yeah, I get it. Chicklet is silly. Don't worry boys. I understand it. Like, offside rule. I get it. Yes, yes. The cool girl. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like, oh, I get it. I understand

a redneck man instead. Yeah. I understand what we have to do to not be seen as a silly woman. Like I'm playing the game as well. And rather than like you said, like, oh, this book's really fun. This book's really joyous. Yeah. Other things that I really felt like you were doing your female readers a great service was in the portrayal of sexuality. And again, because it comes down to pleasure, sexual pleasure, rather than performative. Yeah. Anna's having a great time whether she's with her man or not.

So I wanted to ask, is it ever embarrassing? Writing sex scenes? Not so much the writing, but in the last couple of three books, I've done the audiobook as well. Oh, yeah. Oh, my God. And it's just me and my producer, one bloke. Yeah, it's always a blow. And we're in a very small, dimly lit space.

And I'm having to say the words and I'm thinking, oh, Jesus Christ, I will never do this to myself again. It is embarrassing doing that. But it's not embarrassing. I mean, it's also embarrassing in that everybody thinks that that's me. Of course. You just assume that sex that you've had. Yes. I mean, I'm 60.

But like lots of women in their 50s and 40s. are still having sex. I mean, and that's regarded as atypical. And like, for plenty of people, like one of my characters, Margaret, you know, she is very happily dead from the neck down. Like, that's how she defines herself. Yeah, yeah. Like Margaret hasn't had sex in 4,000 years and she could not be happier.

Herself and her partner are very, very on the same page about it. But I really don't like this way that women are portrayed as like women actually hate sex and they only have it as a bargaining tool, you know, that they'll use a. it as some sort of leverage. A reward. Yes, a reward. Cut the grass. Yeah. Oh yeah.

No, you wouldn't have sexism for cutting the grass. Yeah, no, no, no, right. Just find out maybe. Yeah. But yeah, his birthday, your anniversary and Christmas. Christmas, if there's enough drink on board. But yeah, the idea of women as sexual creatures, as women being agents of our own sexuality, is rarely written in my experience.

loved in the whole community of this book was people fancying each other having crushes. His good looking, oh, look what he's got in his trousers. I love the crushes and I love like the sort of trajectory of a crush as well of like, oh, oh, oh. And the gradients are many people because that is what happens. I keep making references to be old, being old, but like that is the thing. You don't grow out of that. Like it doesn't grab you with the same kind of crazed intensity as it did in my teens or 20s. But there's still a nice feeling when you meet somebody

and there's a little twinkle and there's a hello. I'd be looking forward to seeing you again. It's nice. It's nice. And there's no harm in it. Yeah, yeah. But thank you so much of saying that about the community, Sarah, because I loved writing the people in that town.

And I wanted it to be a microcosm of any place where like you get all kinds. You know, you get the very capable, the very likable, the very nosy, the right oddball. That would be me over the same. the corner, you know, that you get a mix of people and that there's all these dynamics. And as you say, there were sparks. And you didn't have to be 19.

I really felt like I was there. I felt like I was in that town. Like I felt like I had gone on holiday. I very much wanted it to be real in the way that I wanted the magic faraway tree to be real. And I read it as a child. I sort of think it is real place tonight. Is this what Ireland's like? Well.

Is there going to be mass tour? of people looking. I was like, I want to go and stay in this place. The Airbnb sounds really nice.

It does. It does. The Airbnb is not real, to my knowledge. But that dynamic of a small town in Ireland is kind of familiar

to me. Like my mother's from a town in Clare called Enis Stimon. And it's that sort of thing. Everybody knows each other.

You can't not know each other. I mean, Anna Stimman wasn't the inspiration for Mom Tully. But that kind of thing,

that, I mean, an Irish people, I suppose, are just very, very nosy. You know, they will ask questions. They will keep asking questions until they find out what they want to know.

See, I love all that. Yeah, go to any town in the west of Ireland. You know. And get this Airbnb, I'll find that. Yeah. Well, maybe not that one exactly. I mean, that's a great tie-in, Marin. If you can build the Airbnb.

All right, I'll do it for you. Because I think you'd love it. That would be like a theme park for the readers. Yeah, that's what I mean, like a proper theme park. Yeah. Keystown. Keys Town. Keys Town.

With the music, do you have a soundtrack where you listen while you write? Because there's lots of music peppered through. And one of the things that another character describes Anna is that she's got great taste in music. Yeah. Yeah. For some reason, it seemed important. I mean, it's a uniting thing with Anna and another character.

And I had a really nice time because Anna is younger than me. And I was picking out songs that she would have listened to when she was 14 or 16. and, you know, through her 20s. And that was really, really, really nice because it wasn't always stuff that I would have listened to. So I didn't just listen to them. I tracked them down if, you know, I mean, I didn't just have songs on in the background.

I thought, okay, what was out in June of 1978? You know, that sort of thing. You're building a character who takes enjoyment from life. And people who are like, oh, I love this one, turn it up. I don't like music. So I'm an observer of people liking music. And that's what it always seems to be. Sarah hasn't coped since take that broke up.

So I'm taking a big bite of life is enjoying music, getting up to do karaoke. You're watching them in the corner going, oh, I see how you enjoy it. Yeah, you're so funny. I actually don't really like music either. Yeah, I would prefer silence always. Like I write in silence. I would like most of life to be accompanied by silence. But I did, the odd time I do.

like a song and then when I do like to see I'm such an addict about everything then I will play it 80 times in a row as high as loud as it until it stops giving me whatever it's giving me those little hits of dopamine and then I never want to hear it ever again twin flames

completely the blue jumper the music the other side from the pleasure and maybe this is more Carriads area of expertise is because you have a character who's enjoying life but she's experienced a huge traumatic grief which is you know

not just loss of a husband, death of her husband that she loved in a car crash, a violent. I thought you wrote about that so well. I checked with Carrie. She checked with me. She was like, because sometimes grief comes up in books that we're reading. And I guess I'm like, it's bad grief, not good. Yes. I thought you wrote about it so well.

Thank you. So well because, and that's what we messaged about because I was like, oh, it's brilliant. Because it was there but not there. And I think that's the mistake sometimes happens with grief writing is like it's just so loud. and it's all they're thinking about. You're like, that's not how grief works. It's coming and going. And especially with this book,

because we keep tracking back sometimes and having these other memories, you see these points it did really affect her. Her grief is at different proximity. Yeah, how it changes, it evolves. And I really felt every time it came up, you still felt this sadness, but that she had also created a life around it.

What I love, you could see people being confused by that. Like other characters being like, hmm, but her husband died tragically. Like, she should be more sad. Yeah, in riddles weeds for the rest of life. Yeah, and not being glamorous or listening to music or having a dance. Like that's like, that doesn't fit. And are the people trying to put grief in her way?

Into the kind of the recognisable template. And I thought it just came across so real. Like, yeah, it's something really, really awful. It happened a really long time ago. She still obviously thinks about it. And it's omnipresent. It's never not there. Yeah.

But equally, she can still fancy someone else and still have a life and still be yearning for someone else. Like, I just think that's, we don't. allow people to be complex. Exactly. I was just going to say that, you know, that grief has to be binary, you know? It's either like you're in grief or you're not. Yeah, you're fine. But we exist with thousands of emotions going on at the same time. And as you said, Sarah, like the volume of certain emotions dial up or down all day, every day, you know, there's never really a balance as such. It's like a book where grief is present, but it's not like, so it's about the grief and what she does.

It's like, no, it's a book about some, like a person and what's happened to them. Yeah, it is. I mean, it's a book really about, I suppose, just about a person in life. You know, when she was, I don't know, a certain age, she thought it was all, her life was fixed. And would always kind of be good. And then she lost her husband and then other things happened and then life was good again. And then her, you know, along came the pandemic. And that affected her so much that she.

wanted to change voluntarily, you know, her circumstances, and that we never reach a phase where we're free from disruption or unpleasant feelings. And also with those life changes, when people are experiencing them themselves, there are certain life changes that can look like they're tracking backwards. For instance, for the character of Anna, you've got New York, high-flying, busy career, and then she goes to Ireland, and her life is suddenly a lot slower. she's unemployed, she's back with family and historic acquaintances. But what you're showing in the book is

we see a character going through things that might externally be seen as less successful, but actually for her as a human being at that point, they are the right things to do. Well, like the character, everyone's like, why are you here? Why aren't you in New York? All her sisters, everyone's like, why would you lead this amazing job, it's amazing life? And yeah, I loved it because it was really seeing someone make those choices in being like, but it's not a backwards choice to come here. And like Anna was burnt out and she's ashamed of that phrase

because people are very judgy about the words burnout. Oh yeah. Come on. I think people are very harsh on themselves actually. Yeah. I think it's that. I think it's that we all think we should be able to cope because someone else can cope. Cope.

Yeah. Or yeah, we should be able to cope because a little bit like what you're saying about not being worthy of success. People don't feel worthy of rest. People don't feel worthy of, I mean that's why the term self-care had to be invented. Yes. Because no one was taking care of themselves. So I'm actually making a life choice to look after yourself.

I think it's really difficult for people. It is, isn't it? I mean, there's so much respect given to people who go the extra mile, you know, who go the extra hundred miles. You know, people, yeah, you know, like I do 14-hour days, you know, then I go and play, you know, Padell. I think that's the new sport that does. Yeah, yeah. Piquel ball, Padale. It's like super trendy. It's like squash. Yeah, like squash or tennis. You know, it's, yeah, them types of players. Because that wasn't enough. Yeah, I know. Yeah. And, you know, and I sleep five hours a night and then I'm on the phone to blah, blah, blah. And like, that's not. That should not be extolled. No. Or is that thing of if that's, if that's where someone else gets their pleasure from. From, it doesn't mean that we, yes. It doesn't mean that the rest of us are failing by not playing ourselves.

It's seen as the high standard and it's seen as, like you said, going the extra mile, giving 100, 10%, like if you care, if you care about your life, you will push through, you will do it, if you care about your family, come on. And then you're like, and I think again it comes back, so it is quite a female thing of just pushing and pushing and pushing because society's telling you to and you feel the pressure of like, I don't want to let people down. I don't want to say I'm walking away from this dream job. I don't want to seem like an idiot.

And I think that's why it's nice to meet a character at that point. isn't it the start she's coming back to island that tension of like I've made that choice and I like the whole way through Anna's like should I go back to New York. Have I done the wrong thing? And occasionally you're like I don't know manna maybe you should like maybe you should. I just thought she was so incredibly capable that she had this flash of New York. She hadn't sold it. Yeah. It's still there being leased. I thought you know she she might feel she's spiraling but she's really handling this very well. But I do think that burnout culture. So that backlash thing we have so quickly don't me like everyone's like oh burnout yeah that's interesting

and everyone's like oh god well everyone's got it burn out yeah it starts from a good place of like oh there's this thing called burnout and actually maybe you have it and then everyone's like fuck you but it's another function of late stage capitalism where we're meant to be monetising the entire time even when we're asleep you know and everybody I see the youngs on um I suppose I was going to say Instagram they're probably not on the TikToks on the TikToks

on the TikToks thank you yeah you know and they're doing lovely crochet. Even Esu's 23 and she's a beautiful crocheter. But like people are at her, yeah, well you know, you should sell it. You sell it exactly, you know, set up at your shop. Yeah. And like, she just wants to crochet it. It's relaxing and it wouldn't

be all of a sudden if you had some. And it's not for any purpose because I think if you've got a customer in mind or if you're thinking this has to be sellable, it changes everything. Well, someone said to me the other day the definition of play is doing something that has no purpose.

And I was like, oh, that's like that's what we'll play. It's like when children are playing, there's no purpose. So they're not doing it because it'll be really good to be bonded actually. Yeah. We're in class together. It's like they're just doing it because it's nice to run fast with your coat, like, your hood up. That's it. And that's what you see with kids.

And I think that's why playground sometimes are really confronting because, you know, got this group of adults all trying to like monetize their like, do a thing. And then you've got this pointlessness happening that you have to watch for hours. You have to watch this pointlessness that has. no purpose. You know, again, like if you are a creative person, you do do things, I know that feeling of someone insely being like, oh, you should do that, you should sell that. And it's almost like you're saying about, well, you shouldn't be doing that. Yeah. Something else needs doing. Yeah, it's ugly. It's worse. Isn't just yeah. Comes back to what you were saying.

Someone needs to walk away from the hook. It feels like play when you're writing. Sometimes. Yeah, it does. And I allow myself that time. But I mean, you've written another. Yeah. And congratulations. But I, at. some stage order has to be put on the play. I don't mind that. I accept that. But there are times when, I mean,

any writer will say that, and they're few. But when I think, oh, oh, this is lovely. I really, really enjoy this. I didn't expect to do this.

And when that happens, it's glorious. But like, you have to put in all the dull bits or the scary bits or the frustrating bits to get to that. But no,

it does sometimes feel like playing. No one in the playground was writing a novel. Let me make it clear. They call it flow. and it's with all creative people, you know, musicians, sculptors, painters, writers, and it's the bit where it just feels like it's coming. You're so close for you.

Yeah, you're not from somewhere else and you're just the channel. Yeah, certainly it's just flowing through. You don't have to think about it. It's just happening. It's amazing. Yeah, it's amazing, isn't it? And it's called us, but then around that, if it's your job, there's lots of work. It's lots of turning up and doing it.

Yeah. And that's okay when we understand that the work is necessary, that the flow state is the, it's It's aberrant. You know, it's not the norm. It's the tiny gems of delicious bits. And that makes the rest of it worth doing. Yeah. It doesn't happen every time.

Indeed, it doesn't. But when it does, great. Can we look back to the playground? Because Anna's relationship to, because for a big chunk of the book, what I thought was brilliant is that she wasn't being asked all the time about having children. Yeah. Do you have children? I thought that.

And the relationship with her friend, Jackie. Yes. So we know Anna really well when we get to the point of that she had what is a very, very common experience, which is to absolutely not want children, to have a relationship with someone who also doesn't want to have a family. Oh, yeah, that was so sad that bit. And then they, yes. And then to change their mind.

Yeah. And again, people are complex and that's common. Yes, and thank you for saying that because, yeah, she just, she'd never wanted children. She's quite, I mean, she's quite independent. and she never wanted to be trapped with people she didn't like. And like she was always like the quiet, scared one in her family. You know, she's four other sisters and a very rowdy mother. I love her family.

Oh, thank you. As a gang, just what brilliant, yeah. Whenever they arrived, it was like brilliant. Here they are. The Walsh's thank you. But yeah, she never wanted children because she didn't want that, you know, what if her child or children were like her sister? and but around the age of 40 and this happens a lot and it is it's kind it's biological it's primal you know

we are animals at the end of the day and like you know it's when people's fertility I mean I don't know people are having babies later and later which is wonderful but yeah she got those surge of maternal hormones all of a sudden and it like it blindsided her and as you say she was in a relationship with somebody who was absolutely not returning like you he did not want, he had his own very valid reasons as well. And it left her in a very, very weird place because she could no longer have a relationship with this person. And yeah. I think it's really hard that because, and also I feel, I feel so much for younger women when they're saying, I don't want to have children, that we as a society

and as individuals go, well, you might change your mind because some people do. Yeah. But also they might not. So it's like how to talk about this without also not telling people. But it's also not your fault if you hit 39 or 30. And do change your mind. And suddenly get a rush of, oh, my body. Yeah, my body wants it. Yeah, my body's decided. Last ditch.

Last ditch attempt. Yeah. And nature's very clever. Nature is very powerful. I have a friend and she has discovered that she's in her late 30s, that she probably won't be able to have children. And she is talking about that we should tell women in their early 20s. to have their eggs frozen, you know, to do something like that so that they have more options.

It's really hard because I can't remember who this was. Name this person for me. She's got brown hair. She used to do location, location, location. Kirsty. Kirsty. Kirsty. Kirsty.

Kirstie. Oh, yes. So a few years ago. He does write quite opinionated pieces. Well, she got a real backlash because she said feminism is not serving women badly if it's telling them to concentrate on their work and they think they can get pregnant in their late 30s. So it's about how.

how we give people all of the information because I also think getting your eggs frozen in your 20s, then what a pressure. It's expensive. It's expensive. It's full moments again. They did an episode on Nobody Panic about it, didn't they? Did they? Yeah.

If you do want to use them, you have to do IVF. You can't just have them put back inside a nice and fresh. Yeah. Yes. I think that's it's really complicated. I don't think there's an easy conversation to have. I guess that's what we're saying, isn't it? We need to have the space to have all the conversations.

Also, I thought, was amazing. So Jackie's her best friend and they do have a big falling out. But Jackie has a child and you get that glimpse of woman with new baby and friend without baby and the completely different perspective. But also, friend who's grieving. Friend who's grieving. What you see is sort of a lot. Oh, I really felt for them. How can you really understand what it's like to have a baby when you are free?

Yeah. And also she's had, you know, the baby like she's with her partner. They're not in a great situation. So she's very isolated. She's really nice, really fun, but wants her friend who doesn't have kids. I love that scene of like, you know, when Anna comes to help out, and it turns out Jackie's just like off on a date. She's not going to work.

And you've come over to be like you, Anna's come over to be like, because you need me because you're going to work and support you. Canceled her own date. In order to come over and facilitate Jackie's date. Yeah. And then it was just, I thought, oh, that's just that world you're in when, because you are now dealing with people who are so selfish, your children, because they are.

Right. Because that, you know, and I mean, in a loving way, I moaned about them so much. Carriads particular, though. Yeah, I was so sad. But, like, they need you. You know what I mean? They need you. They take things.

They don't say thank you. They're like, that's, they're like, it's not reciprocal in the kind of the grown-up way. Yeah. That's a shift when you have a baby of like, oh, this thing, I just have to 100% look after it and I will not get a thank you. So then you become quite selfish because you feel like you're being pulled in all directions. And so to your friend without kids.

And then I think if you're accused of any selfishish, you're like, you want to be my baby. I feed this guy every four hours And he's still not thanking me And it's a real I thought you captured that world Of two friends just not And Jackie she thought she was doing Anna a favour

Because Anna had just been through this trauma She thought she was giving her A little bit for a home And I thought what you captured so well Again is change of like Well it was really good for them And it did really work But now Anna

Needs to move away And have a bit more space And how change is actually Really hard for us Like we want people to stay in their lane And stay where they are And these characters the conflict often comes from, oh, you're changing and I don't want you to.

Yeah. I mean, and there's such mythology around female friendship in a way that there isn't really about any other relationship, I don't think. There's this thing that, you know, you meet your female friend and you are friends and it stays amazingly supportive and fabulous, you know, until you're at each other's bedside. I know that's not possible. I have found anyway, it's very shameful to have lost a friend or to have a friendship go arrive. It's very hurtful as well in a way that we don't have space to talk about the heartbroken.

I miss my friend. Yes. The way like you can cry in public if a romantic relationship is ended or if you've had a row with your mother or something like that. But with a friend, people think there's something wrong with me if a friendship. Yeah, you feel like it. It's kind of weird or are you that you couldn't manage a friendship with another woman. But we're all just people and all relationships are subject to the same laws. I wonder hearing you talk about it as well, that with a romantic relationship, we understand the significance of like, oh, they cheated on me or they lied to me or they stole my wallet, but with a friend, it always sounds superficial because you have to know the friendship.

When you're like, okay, so I bought these jeans and she said they look nice. But then I found out she said they looked all right. And she told someone else they were on sale and that's why I bought them. Yeah, it's so hard. And then she bought a pair. You don't understand all the rules that are broken All the love languages that were travelling upon And so to someone else it could sound flippet

When you go, no, that's us done Yeah Oh my God Seriously, sir I mean that's exactly what it's like They're tiny Tiny tiny But they're so meaningful

Because the relationship Is usually incredibly intimate And enmeshed With other relationships Especially familiar And sometimes also Even with a romantic partner You sort of

You go, yeah You don't really understand me You don't really know me. You don't get this about it. But with a friend, they are the person who is supposed to understand. You're supposed to get it about that I can turn to you and be like, can you believe it? Can you believe they did that? You are supposed to be a mind reader.

Yeah, yeah. Because you have so much backstory on me. How did you not know? And I think sometimes, like, what you're saying, Marion, is really interesting. And again, I think it's rooted in gender that women are supposed to always be nice and always find resolution. And actually that's often what it's seen of like, well, can't you two girls just get a lot? And it's like sometimes you've changed and they've changed and actually you're just in different paths. And that's what I loved about this book that Anne and Jackie just had just gone in completely different paths.

And they couldn't stay what they were. And it didn't mean they didn't love each other. But it was like we just need to separate. And this idea that women aren't allowed to change or develop or move away. And that means like you said there's this shame of like can't you get on with someone. Like can't you make up to them? Yes. I mean, and the way with like, you know, a romantic partner.

you know you can go for counselling I mean the idea of two Platonic friends going for counselling we'd all snigger do you know what I mean but like I wish they should offer that's friendship counselling so my favourite murder which is a true crime podcast in America they had therapy

together because they're doing the podcast because intimacy is really hard geez and oh god are we going to have to go for cancer because what they had was sorry to talk about essentially you know they had a podcast and it was hugely successful as they became rich from it

and so but suddenly you're enmeshed in a relationship They met a party and then they started getting joint therapy. I just thought, how wonderful to have someone talking about that. It's so sensible. It is so sensible because if, you know, if you love somebody and you love having them in your life, but things have gone a bit weird, it's worth trying to save it. To communicate better. To communicate.

It's all about communication, all of it, everything in life. What's so wonderful about this book and how much. time we spend with the characters is life is really long. Yeah, so you get, yeah. And nothing's over while people are still alive. So you can have these re-meetings of people. After you've done for the change. I think that's it, isn't it?

Like transition is difficult for everybody. And sometimes you need to do that alone. Like a little caterpillar. You need to like boil down into a goo and then be remade. And that you kind of have to do that yourself. but that doesn't mean you can find people after you've done the change. Because I think once, like you were saying, once you've done the change and you've made the decision, you've got more solid ground to say to someone, this is who I am now.

Yes. You can be my friend if you want to or you don't have to be, but at least I know what's going on. Whereas really what you're dealing with when someone's changing, you're like, well, I don't know who I am. So I don't know how to relate to you right now. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Like one of the things I wanted to write about in this book was how we do things when we're at, you know, an age. and I'll talk for myself

I did things when I was younger and I acted out of fear or, you know, terror of confrontation or I decided to stand up for myself and I overdid it and I was cruel and then years pass and I look back and I think oh, I really regret that

if I could change it I would, if I could go back and do it differently, I would I would have been more honest and there have been times when people have come back into my life and I was able to not just apologise but to embark again we were able to have a relationship but we did it differently

you know with more maturity with more honesty with you know I am a real kind of I'm a people pleaser I am terrified of showing my anger and I'm terrified of saying something hurtful to people and sometimes that's the the worst thing to do to keep it in yeah so Anna and other people meet in the book and they're older now than they were 10, 15, 20 years ago and often we don't allow people that we knew from back then to be different

and we're different. So it's about kind of meeting the new versions of ourselves. That's why family is so hard because family doesn't want you to stay that. Yeah. You were. And they always override you like, no, but I know who you are. Yes. Yeah.

They never listen. That's why everyone has a terrible Christmas. Yes. Because you'll put back, and especially dynamics, again, as a younger sister, you're always the younger sister, even though you can be very capable in your outward life. And then you come back and people are like, what are you known? You would win a Nobel Prize, go home to tell them. And then suddenly he'd be screaming on the show, oh, she's having one of her meltdown. Someone's being a bit dramatic. That is so true. How many in your family? I've got two sisters and a mom, so a female family. Oh, right, right. Okay, lots of roles there.

I've got an older brother. Okay. And then, yeah, my dad rivaled was 15. So, yeah, it was like unit of us at three. But I'm very much, my whole attitude is a little sister. Like, that's how I am with everybody. That's how I get heard is by being slightly too aggressive because no one's really listening to me.

What's your family? I'm the eldest of five and I'm the tyrant. Like, I'm my dad in small. Oh, you take second in command. Yeah, I'm the clipboard person. I stand at the bottom of the stairs, yeah. Like, unable to cope with lateness. You know, people who aren't out of bed yet, you know.

Because the pressure got handed to you, like, you're in charge of these crazies. This unruly shower. Yeah, but like we all, all five of us have a specific identity and we will never be allowed to be different. Yeah. And it's, you know, as you say, no wonder everyone's Christmases are horrendous. Because we're not the person we're being treated as. We haven't talked about the main male characters. No, I was.

And I've got some questions. Yeah, yeah. I don't want to do spoilers, so I wasn't sure. I thought I fancied him. Did you? Yeah, a little bit. Yeah, well, he's very sexy. Because the way Anna described him. I didn't, I felt like.

Did you think he was at the very beginning? So, Joey. Joey. Sorry, I was right, Joey. Did you have fun writing Joey? Oh, my God. I did. I really, really, really did.

I really felt like I knew him. That's for. I was like, oh, there he is. There he is. Cheeky. I mean, we meet him. I didn't think he was a good guy. He wasn't a good guy.

But he wasn't. But I picked up on like, I was like, I think that's why you fancied him. Yeah, I was like, there's something about this guy. Even, yeah, but also you could just feel with Anna. You can feel like her interest in him, even though you know he's arrogant, annoying. And he's blanking her. This is my question about him because he's a fully rounded character. Thank you.

Like human beings, he has history and complexities and a lot of self-awareness and growth. So I was reading it going, this is the problem with men written by women. He's really great. Better than men. Better than real men. Yes. I get you. Yeah.

That's very interesting. And yes. In many ways, he was the dream man that he was a bad boy who went to the good, but still remained as sexy as a bad boy. It's a bit like the magic fireway tree again for me.

It's a thrusted the book and going, but he's not out there. Yeah. It's not for you, not for anyone. Is he? He's not Marion, is he? It's not Ireland isn't full of really great bad boys.

No. Who've had therapy? Well, you see, I do think men are more likely to have therapy these days. You know, but he's not young. Yeah. Like nobody gets therapy while they're young and the wheels are still on. My mum was always say, like, and it's happened to every age, that if a man's single at 40, there's a reason.

If a man single at 50, there's a reason. A man single at 60, there's a reason. Because within seconds, if they're a good one, they're not single anymore. They're snapped up. Of the market. I mean, I do think people are capable of change. Like even the worst people. And especially for him, you know,

the reason that he was so unavailable, I suppose. You know, he had reasons. Yeah. Yeah, it wasn't like he's just an awesome. Yeah, he wasn't. The world had hurt him a little bit. He was wounded. She seems to be true at the same time because someone can be an asshole.

And be wounded. But you can be fascinated with why and then go, okay, now I understand. Yes. So, I mean, I kind of believe. believe that there are men, good men, who have done the work. But then again, we're always doing the work, you know. Marion, thank you so much for talking to us. We loved the book.

We loved it. We were so excited to meet you. Thank you. You are everything we wanted you to be in more. I love you as a cultural commentator. I love your Instagram. I watch strictly so that I can understand your tweets about strictly. And I love your passion for things.

passion for life and your writing brings joy to so many people. You're so kind. You really are very, very kind, Sarah. Thank you, thank you. And thank you, Carrie, for having me. Oh, you're so welcome. It was so lovely. Thank you.

Thank you for listening to the Weirdo's Book Club. My favourite mistake by Marion Keys is out now. Check out our Instagram at Sarah and Carrie's Weirdo's Worlders Club for all the upcoming books we're going to be discussing. My novel Weirdo and Carriad's book, You Are Not Alone. Are both available now. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading.

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