Sara & Cariad's Weirdos Book Club - My Phantoms by Gwendoline Riley

Episode Date: June 18, 2026

This week's book guest is My Phantoms by Gwendoline Riley.In this episode we discuss Ferrante fever, Albert Camus in hot pants, mothers and Jackie Weaver.Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you!Follow Sara & Cariad’s Weirdos Book Club on Instagram @saraandcariadsweirdosbookclubProduced by Naomi Parnell Recorded by Naomi Parnell and edited by Aniya Das for Plosive.Artwork by Welcome Studio.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Sarah Pasco. And I'm Carriead Lloyd. And we're weird about books. We love to read. We read too much. We talk too much. About the too much that we've read. Which is why we created the Weirdo's Book Club.

A space for the lonely outsider to feel accepted and appreciated. Each week we're joined by amazing comedian guests and writer guests to discuss some wonderfully and crucially weird books, writing, reading and just generally being a weirdo. You don't even need to have read the books to join in. It will be a really interesting, wide-ranging conversation. And maybe you'll want to read the book afterwards. We will share all the upcoming. books we're going to be discussing on our Instagram, Sarah and Carriads, Weirdo's Book Club.

Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you. This week's book guest is My Phantoms by Gwendolyn Riley. What's it about? Bridget Grant has a distant relationship with her mum and sister, which slowly unravels as the book goes on. What qualifies it for the Weirdo's Book Club? Well, who doesn't love a brittle and distant female narrator? In this episode we discuss Ferranti Fever, Albaer Camus in his hot pants, Mothers, Shekhov and Jackie Weaver. Trigger warning, we do talk about malicious behaviour from the father. Today we are talking about book we've tried to talk about twice.

We've read it three times. Yes, this is our third reading. So it does say something right at the beginning about the strength of this writer and the writing that I've read it three times and don't resent a single read, a single moment of it, a single page. I would agree. So we're talking about My Phantoms by Gwendolyn Riley. And when I picked it up. But also my phantoms.

But also my phantoms, but Gwendolyn Riley. I picked up for the third time and I thought, oh, here we go. I started reading it, thought, God, this is, I could just read this whole thing. Love it so much. It's so good. And you know what? It's light. It's a light.

I mean, it's such a powerful book, considering the weight of it. Like, she gets so much in this fucking book. I was wondering, in terms of places to start, and there are so many, if we should start with Ferranti fever. The tiny thing I wanted to say was that, In 2004, an interview in 3am magazine, she was referred to as more like Camus in Hot Pants. What the fuck? I know. I just had to get that out of them.

What the fuck? What the fuck? In 3am? In magazine, 3am magazine. Is that the sun? I don't know. I just found the quote. So 3am is like that page in the sun?

Yeah. But I don't think it... And this is from 2004? 2004. She was referred to as more like Camu in Hot Pants. And it struck me. And more like Camu in Hot pants than what? Camus.

Than Camu in Hot pants? Cammo in a rain jacket. Yeah. Okay, but you wanted to talk about franti fever. But now all I can picture is... Yeah. Alba camo probably had hot pants. He was French.

Basically, she was... She is a pretty woman and she writes great books. So obviously, when she first appeared, everyone went, blah! She's so pretty! She has... Was she wearing hot pants a lot? No, I don't think so.

Let me try. I mean, can I just refer that I made that note a long time ago when we were supposed to do this book? And all I did was write down. So I will try and find it now. I see it's not fresh research. No, it's not fresh research. I actually picked the book up off the shelf.

I was like, fuck, what did I do with all that research? And it was just waiting for me. And I thought to myself, well, damn, past me. Yes, that's good. Okay, what did you want to talk about Frantefeba? Well, the reason I wanted to start Frantefea, because there were lots of points that I could jump in it. But I think it's a really good example of how this book uses specifics

to speak to the dissonance and disconnect that can exist between a parent and their child. And that's the podcast you're listening to. Camus, a smoke in a cigarette. Okay, no, 3am is a website, like an arty website. Okay. So it's not the sun. There says a lot to that quote that I thought it was... Gwendolyn Riley's Britlitz, Camu and Hot Pants,

tells HP Tinker why she still works in a bar. So this must be at the star. And I'm just going to show you the website. It's a really old website. Like it doesn't even work on a phone properly. So this was the days where, obviously, you know, you just had a blog and you could write what you liked. Anyway, so it struck me.

So, Ferranti fever. Fiante fever. The character of Hen, which is our narrator's mother. Nader's mother. They buy each other books, which obviously we have as a book podcast for each other's birthdays and Christmases. Of course I've got it. And Hen's daughter for Christmas.

So the narrator and her friends had all got into all Ferrantos. Yeah. And she knew that her mom was aware of it. Her mum had seen Guardian articles. She reads The Guardian. She does the puzzles. And when she was reading the book, her mom said to her, oh, have you got Ferante fever?

Yes. So at Christmas, for a joint Christmas and birthday, she got her all four of the Ferranti novels. And this is, I think, speaks so much to, like, the hope that you have of connecting with a parent that's difficult to connect with. Yeah. It would be something to talk about.

Yeah, we have something to talk about. She knows about Ferranti fever, you know. And so they have this sort of message back and forth, and her mom's confused with the characters. Now, when we talked about, We talked about how confusing the characters are. Lenu and Leela. And the mum is texting her daughter, which one of them is Leelie?

Which one has this nickname? Which is really funny. It's really observational about this thing. But her mum just cannot get into these books. But she's persisting. She's halfway through the second book. And her daughter, when they meet up again, sort of months and months later, she says, just give them to the charity shop, just give them to Michelle, which is her sister.

the point was that you were supposed to not enjoy them. If you don't have, you know, verante fever by now, just quit. And the mum, her personality, the stubbornness of her, she's described as a, as muleish. She's so difficult. She gets an idea in her head or she just wants to be contrary. She's going to persist reading these books. And the narrator says to her, but why read if you don't understand who things are happening to? She says to her, I liked it by the wedding at the end.

And the mum doesn't know whose wedding it was. which of the characters so nothing is sticking and it's so funny and so sad as everything in this book is yeah so it's about

our narrator is kind of going back over her parents remembering her parents and it reads like memoir yeah it reads like memoir but it's fiction

although I don't know it feels like it's coming from somewhere the moments are very very detailed and specific they're so detailed being in the car with her dad her dad's attitude to books so again

it's keeping with my book theme how much we learn from her dad, about her dad, from how he reacts when she is a child. 13, 14, 15, she's on these sort of legally prescribed visits. Yeah. Dad has these access visits.

And she reads at his house and he makes fun of her. The first chapter is all about the dad. And the description of him is so relentlessly, like, so awfully honest. Like she sees him, like she sees every,

crack in his skin. And yes, she's a teenager who reads. And so basically he says, oh, posing with a book, are you? Posing with a book. Chucks books at her. Constly brings them up. Does impressions of her with the Argos catalog. Yeah.

To her sister, he doesn't care. And both of them just do this thing where they just have to sort of disconnect and suffer it. They look out windows until he stops talking. They don't react. And he's treating them like an audience. He's pleased with his own jokes. He reminded me of the dad in Friday night dinner. but like the worst version

because he calls women like all healthy specimens all the tips. He goes all there's a pair of healthy specimens one o'clock he says that to his daughters. To his daughters. Yeah it's so awful and then he keeps saying like don't talk to me about books to you've read mitre men. You're not serious to you read mitre men and he's just like

he's like the worst person you've ever come across and a bit I wanted to describe which just her writing so she's talking about how her and a sister learn to just go dead around him. basically and that like the mum is always saying like don't provoke him don't provoke him but it's like there's no she learns she learns very quickly that they have no effect on him and she says i think our

mental slight was more akin to the way michel and i after our swimming lessons used to hit the buttons on the arcade games in snack bar we hadn't put any money in but nonetheless persuaded ourselves that we were affecting the progress of the yellow lights which flashed in steps and slowly cascaded in fact there were a lot of children who like to do that if i remember it must be a thing children like to pretend. So the idea that like they've learned this man is so awful that they've like learned that there's there's no effect you can have like an arcade game. You're just smashing buttons. You're not in control of this man. He just does exactly what he wants. And she just describes him so hideously. Yeah. It's bleak. Well on this read and I I would now describe him as abusive

because there's a bit where she's in the car and she's been reading a book. I don't know if it was Shekhov at this point. She's reading a book that obviously makes him feel unintelligent. That's my read on it as a reader. He feels very threatened by his daughter's reading. It's why he always brings up of mice and men. You know, something he is familiar with.

And he says, how's your ring? Got an itchy ring. Oh, yeah, yeah. She once had worms as a child and he will not let it drop. Yeah. And this is how he humiliates her and belittles her. Constantly. I think, I think it is a familiar type of man.

who is a bully who's small, unhappy, miserable, but still has a superiority. And that moment I now think that is abusive. I think the fact that at his funeral, his own sister didn't go. These are the first details we learn about him. His own sister didn't go to the funeral. He used to lock her out every day after school and she had to sit on. That story. Yeah, so it's like this isn't a guy who went a bit too far sometimes with his recklessness

or with things that he found funny. He, he, I mean, I think he's such a nasty piece of work. He's, it's, it's weird though, isn't it? Because he, you're right. But it's like the nastiness is so wrapped up in his stupidness. So it's not like, you know, like other dads you've read which are like, oh my God, they're frightening. He is frightening, but he's frightening because of his stupidity, because he's so stupid and he's so threatened by her. And he's so, it's like the relentlessness of his bullying.

And that he won't just leave her alone. He just won't just shut up. And so it's not like, I don't know, it's not like he waits for her in the house and says awful things, but he just won't leave, the noise of this man. This is where the difficulty of having his divorced parents, because I think if your parents are together in a house, then you always have the other parent, hopefully as a witness or as a protector. A buffer.

So if they're a fucking asshole and you're 13 years old, what are you going to do apart from just try and get the time to pass? She says, I've either had an inhibiting effect in general. a deadening effect really for all his large energy and these specific needlings and exhortations only ever sent me further inwards. So it's like the more he tries to get a reaction from him, the more her and her sister just disappear.

And it's so, it's such a good read, but it's quite hard. I did find it because it's like you're sort of, you're in her head of like being this young child with this just appalling dad. And there's, like you said, there's no other adult around to protect her. It's just. And in terms of her mother. And her mom is my.

The rest of the book of it. But we have to talk. understand that being married to him must have been a period of suffering. Yeah. Whatever attracted her to him, whatever she thought was fun about him at the beginning, she divorced him relatively early in their marriage after having teachers with him. Well, she says she just got married because she says, doesn't it? I just don't mind because you're supposed to. That's what you do. That's what you do. But she's not saying this in like, oh, I've had a think about it. She's just saying it, like, stop asking me to the rage.

Stop, like, because we, what's what you did. Why are you questioning? We just, because it's normal. This constant chant of like, that's normal. Yeah. And so we sort of have to forgive the mum a little bit and that she spent years of her life with this man. Do you think? And we don't really get much of them together in terms of memories. I think that's why he's first. I think she paints him as equally awful. I don't think...

You don't think worse? No, I think they're... Because the dad... Yeah, he is worse. He is an awful character. But there's something... She's relieved of his relentlessness eventually. But the mum is still awful.

Oh, I'm not... The mum is absolutely awful. and we'll get onto her. The last thing I'd like to say about John, the dad, and again, I think this is something that is a real, in a certain kind of man. He's very, very in love with his own emotion. Yeah, yeah.

So this reference to, of mice and men, is the fact that he heard it on the radio, radio four, and it made him cry. When it was a boy. The important thing of the story is that he cried and that his mother always brings it up, that he cried that he was so much. His own sensitivity is so fascinating to him.

And then when they do go and see the Shekhov play, He keeps telling people it sort of becomes part of his patter, this thing that he wanted to shout out. He's so desperate to shout out because the woman was such a bitch. Yeah. And his ability to be moved is so fascinating to him and he's so interesting. And yet he doesn't empathize with anyone else. No, I mean, he's such a sort of narcissist, isn't he? But that's what I mean this.

That's not a word I'd say normally. But he is stupid. Like he doesn't seem to have any, sounds really arrogant, but he doesn't seem to have any awareness of anyone else. Like a stupid narcissist is almost like the worst kind, doesn't it? Because like a clever narcissist obviously is dangerous. But a stupid one is like you're just having, everyone's having to suffer him. Because he's not using those skills to do anything other than talk about himself and enjoy himself.

There's a scene with his sister where he's needling her for, she's a vegetarian. She makes him a vegetable curry and he's doing that thing. She's making his children dinner because he can't cook. He's knocking on her door, knocking on a door. So he goes to his mum's and his sister's house when he has the girls for the weekend. Yeah. So she's made this lovely vegetable curry that tastes really nice. And he's saying all that stuff.

And this is definitely, definitely lots of uncles and people in my family. Oh, there wouldn't be any cows if we didn't breathe them for meat. No, do you want there to be no cows left? Trying to destroy the cows, are you? And then he says to the girls, like, don't worry, we'll get chicken nuggets on the way home. This way where people think they're like getting at you as a vegetarian. We'll even it out. You know, the animals still get eaten.

And that's where the dumbness comes in. Yeah, that's, I mean. And he's, the girl, her and her sister are vegetarians. the aren't a vegetarian. Actually, they are now. Yeah, but they've become the eating vegetable curry. They're having a nice time, and he just seems to ruin everything.

The first time I read it, I found it quite a hard read, because there's not a chink of light with this character. Like, there's no moment where, but, you know, he did love me, or she just finds him really repulsive. The chink of light, I would posit, and it does make it a bearable book, is that the character now has a nice boyfriend, has a cat, is highly qualified, educated herself.

So all of her decisions as an adult, and even like the conversations about therapy later on with her mum, I think the chink of light is that she is okay. Yes, but at the beginning is what I mean, she doesn't give you any, I think normally in a book you're like, well, my dad was awful, but here's the moment that I drowned and he rescued me. He got a very thoughtful present and he was listening all those times. If you're looking for a moment where you're like, he redeemed himself,

he doesn't redeem himself. I mean, the redemption, the almost redemption would be the taking her to see the Shekhov play, which is thoughtful. He takes us to the tricycle. But then... The every man in Liverpool. The every man in Liverpool. And then I don't know

I've visualised it as the tricycle. It's because of how she described the foods. First time she has hummus in a cafe. And then he takes her back there to sort of meet an actress and tells her to take the kids on a tour. He insists that he goes backstage. It's so painful. So painful.

So terrible. And then he refers to the actress as my mate Pat. My mate Pat. She's not doing very well since Chekhov. My mate Pat. But I know people like that. I know. And that's why I found it like, not hard, but just depressing.

It's just like, fuck, I do know people like that who just one connection with one thing. And then that's their story for life. They've got their story. Also, those people who consider themselves the equals of successful people. And so it's sort of pathetic and arrogant at the same time trying to draw themselves up. I met that person. My mate George about George Harrison is something else that her dad says. Because they've both once gone out with the same girl.

and just how hard it is to like to not despise your parents yeah but that's what I mean she despises him and really he's despicable he is but that's like that first bit the first chapter is all about the dad and you're just like it's brilliant brilliant writing but the first time I read it I was like oh I feel like I can't quite breathe because like I just want you out this house and then the second and third time I appreciated it a bit more I think I was less worried about her

because maybe I knew that she is okay but the first time I was like like, just can you run away? I think it's safer on the street. Like, this is just, it's such a sad, I sound really arrogant today. It's such a sad suburban little life. Yeah. What's that quote that they did in lockdown that, that Zoom when they were like, are you happy with your little life Elizabeth or something?

Susan, is it from Come Dime with me? No, is it from Come Dime with me? Oh, okay. I've got my. You're sad. It's a lot, Susan. Yeah. I thought it was that Zoom, that village meeting that went.

viral. Jackie Weaver. Jackie Weaver, yeah. But it has that sort of feel about it of like, yeah, people like that really suburban, like clustrophobicness. Yeah. Which I think I did, I mean, my parents were weird, so they weren't like this. But we definitely knew people like this.

I remember going to houses at this and feeling like I couldn't breathe. Yeah. I'm feeling like, I can't, oh, you want to do drama, do you? You want to be of an acting? Be on the stage, do you? And you'd be like, I'm just in your house. I'm friends with your daughter. I don't know what's happening.

But even as an adult. when you have to be polite to someone who is that kind of overbearing. And it's sort of slightly rude. And what they definitely aren't doing is picking up on the signals, the subtle signals that you put out when you're not comfortable. Yeah, yeah. And that's what I would say that is so incredibly well drawn. A man taking up too much space, speaking too much, listening never.

Never. Never. Never. And the cliched way of talking. So cliched. And the fact that they're threatened by anything they don't know about, which means that you do have to switch yourself off around them. And it's a lack of curiosity, isn't it?

Because so he's two interesting, he has these amazing daughters who are, you know, interested in the world and books and reading and are smart and are curious. And he's not curious about them or the world. And that's what I think I found that tension of like she's curious about the world and he has no interest in it. Another moment to highlight where I do think it is abusive is that when she gets up sometimes to go to the toilet, he pulls her trousers down. Yeah. That's your fucking down. I know, I found that really uncomfortable. It's so...

As a joke, he does it like as a prank. He thinks it's funny. They can cross boundaries because they think they made you. You're mine. It's the kind of thing he probably did when she was four, and maybe she did laugh when she was four, and now she's like fucking 16, and it's like, what are you doing? But again, it's that prankster attitude,

which I fucking hate so much. I hate so much of like, it's funny. Let's talk about hens, birds. birthdays. Okay, so let's just say, Hen is the mother. And I feel like it's hard not to do spoilers with this book because it's just one of those books that's all about detail. But I don't think they are spoilers. Do you know what I mean? Yes. Like we might be telling you something that happens, but it doesn't, won't ruin your enjoyment of this book because it's not a book that's about plot. We've read it three times. I know the ending, two of the times I've read it. And I

admired it more. Yeah. And it's not a book where the plot is going to be like, oh my God, she's having a birthday. So if you're listening and you think, oh, you're telling me what happens, we're not, it'll still be great. They meet up, their birthdays are quite near each other. And so her mum comes to London and they go to, is it no, or is it London?

Yeah, her mum is imagined. Yeah, they go to London to a pub that her mum had used to go to in her youth. Oh, so sad. Everything's so sad. The grovey troupe. It's called the troubadour. It's a troubad, which is a real bar in West London. It's very famous.

I think Bob Dylan used to play there and stuff like that. So it was a real 1960s place to be seen. And these meetups, I think it's early in the year, January or February. So it's really, the weather's terrible. Yeah, yeah. And they have these drinks and the conversational gambits, the work the narrator is having to do. Oh, God. There's this thin line.

She knows the kind of things that will upset her mother. And when I'm saying that, I don't mean sort of huge topics. her mum is so defensive you say you'll say oh that was hard why'd just say that that sort of that jumpiness that um

But she's almost She doesn't even allow her to have a conversation about it Stop judging me Why are you asking that for? But it's all joking It's all nosy with you She's always so nosy Like oh god it's so hard this woman

So she's sort of And she can't tell her any story From her own life That her mum will be jealous of So once she accidentally drops in That she went to a Christmas party She sees her mum getting upset And then she has to sort of make up

Some bad stuff that happened at the party And how she felt boring And as she was telling the story about how she thought someone was stuck with her and felt boring, she knew that what she was leaking into it was that the fact that she'd been to other Christmas parties and it wasn't working to sort of save the moment. And it's just such hard work. Her mum doing these one-word answers. But clearly her mum really enjoyed this like anniversary, annual, annual birthday out.

Like trip out together. I know. And she says something like the description she has of her mum as well that are just, oh, this one I want. Well, first of all, she says I didn't see her for age. I didn't see her for 10 years. We spoke now again. She used to send e-cards with cartoon animals in them, which she would deride in the message,

QA, she wrote, not. One Christmas, referring to an animated puppy, she wrote, puke. Puk. Puk from mum. Kiss, kiss, kiss. I thought it was so funny. So funny, but also like, what the fuck is going on with this woman?

Then she gets a friend, Griff, this random friend who they go to jazz together, and Griff loves jazz. And hen hates it. And that's the joke between them. Henny's right. Yeah. Oh, no, I'm with Griff.

But it's just, she's such, do you know what? It reminded me a bit of Annie and O of like the ability to see your parents that clearly is terrifying because as a parent now, that child can really pull you apart

because they've been observing you from day one and you were not paying any attention to the observations because you were just trying to fucking live and get them dressed. And they can turn around and say, do you know the thing that you always do? You know, mum,

you're quite stressed all the time. And sometimes you say, sorry, I'm stressed, but then you just carry on doing it. Thanks, thanks, child. Also, because the parent is reacting to the audacity of a child, how can you not just love me?

I know. I know, because they don't care. They don't care, Sarah. Yeah, so the mom is, the mom is just mad. She's so mad. So it's a bridge from the e-card into these Christmas,

oh yeah, yeah. At Christmas and on her birthday, I sent a card in a book, The era of the e-card was over. Now my mother sent me text messages, not often, on my birthday, on Christmas day and otherwise every few months. Those were announcements too, things like left wine circle or in Scotland. It was hard to know how to reply to an announcement. What seemed to be required was a reaction rather than a response.

I tried to provide one each time. So this is why I find it so fascinating. She's just trying to work out how to press the buttons, like that fruit machine thing. What does her mum need from her so that they can have a relationship with each way? I know, but so sad. I tried to provide one each time. but what followed were often only the same kind of stubbed toe short leash exchanges we used to have on the phone.

I'd send, tell me more and hear nothing, or, oh no, and get what? She like misreads, like the mum misreads everything. Once she sent, well, she's just ready to be upset. Yeah. Once she sent, awful haircut, frowny face. I called her when I got that one, but she didn't answer. This is another great description of the mum.

She says, I think she liked finding life a little bit crap. It encouraged her in a way. Boring films, crap exhibitions, mad people. These she could happily talk about. This was a world she could be part of. And events that had gone wrong, they were boon. One year she'd been to a lecture where a microphone had failed to work. That cheered her up no end.

Talk about it'll be all right on the night, she said. Everyone was shouting, speak up. And this poor man was going bright red. It hit a sweet spot and experience like that. Oh, it's devastating. Because it's like the way she sees her mother of like, you're so small-minded that all you need is a microphone to go wrong and that's what you're going to dine out on

rather than any other life experience. You're not taking anything from life but mishaps because they're funny stories to make. And so the reading of the narrator's boyfriend towards the end when he finally meets her mother is that thing about she's not really in reality is she? And that's the thing with masking is people who mask really well seem like they are in reality

but they might be a slight disconnect or something. So I think masking is all right without. trying to diagnose. Yeah, she doesn't know how social things work. The mum doesn't understand what she's supposed to do back. She struggles to make friends. She makes this one friend. They have a really intense friendship and then it blows apart. Like she doesn't know how to maintain friendships, which is, again, a sort of classic neurodiverse personality. And also she's she's got this sort of unhappiness that she doesn't want named and acknowledged. Jumping forward, there's a scene where I think the narrator should be so proud of themselves and

that she does bring up with her mother after she's had a knee operation that she should consider therapy that she'd had a hard life and that now a sort of a lonely and the sadness that she has that they could look for therapists on her computer and that this would be a positive sign and it just might be helpful it's not for bad people you know it might be helpful to talk to someone and it's so brave to say that to a parent so not just leave them and go they're just miserable that's their problem i don't have to see them i'm going to get back on the train and not see him for six months and then the mom just basically completely denies she was she was she's She ever cried.

It says it was the drugs. I just had a big operation. Why do you keep bullying? I know. She takes everything is bullying. Especially towards the end when she gets, the mum becomes older and we see, you know,

we follow the narrator into adulthood and having to care and living away from a mother and having to like visit and sort out housing and things like that. It's not like a joyful read. The relationship becomes completely, the child becomes a parent. And she just starts behaving even more like a small child.

and you see how vulnerable this woman is. Like she's always been vulnerable. She was vulnerable when she was supposedly looking after her. But she at least like put food on the table and got her dressed. And now she doesn't even do that. You realize, oh, that's, she can't even, she can't do, she can't parent this child. No. I mean, so what's really, I mean, pathetic?

In the true sense of the word. True sense of the word, yeah. So she has a second husband. And she says, I don't know if it's Griff, where she says, oh, yeah, he hates you. He always says, I hate, I hate your kids, hen. And so you've got this stepdad that they don't meet until it's sort of a done deal. And he's a nasty piece of work as well. And they break up because she says something about wanting to get out more.

And he tells her to fuck off, fuck off out of, I think it's Liverpool. Yeah, fuck off. No one will talk to you here. And she just never speaks to him again. I know. And she gets all of these crushes. She keeps like just seeing men at places. And she has a massive crush on the poet Roger McGough.

Oh, yeah. And the narrator is having to stop This like sort of gentleman She sees Roger McGuff once She gets to an event early And sees him with his wife And she says, why can't it be me? Yeah, that bit that I wrote that bit down as well

I was like oh God Can't it be me But again it's like that sort of childish attitude To life of like I don't understand There's no like Okay so I'm a grown up So what do I have to do

It's very victimy Entitled Yeah yeah And again Not doing any of the beginning of the work of, well, why not? Because she does ask, you know, she says some people, people just meet partners.

I think she's jealous of her daughter. For having a boyfriend she doesn't want her to meet. You know, what, it's normal, it's normal to meet your daughter's boyfriend. And they have this conversation after her knee operation where she's saying other people just end up with partners. It just isn't why not for me? It's like, you need to start answering that question. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Why not? And sometimes people don't mind people. Waiting for someone to just solve it. That's what I mean. She's like a child being like, oh, it's smashed. And you're like, yeah, you got to pick it up. Like, what, but she's just so child. But again, like really emotionally stunted.

She seems like a five-year-old sometimes. Like, the later conversations when, you know, she accuses of like, like, you're teasing me, you're bullying me, like turns her mouth down and pouts. And it's like, how can you deal with this person? Well, that's an interesting question. I think I would cut them out of my life. Oh, do you? Would you not? That mum?

That mum? I don't know that I would be there. Isn't it? The sister has cut. her out, hasn't she? No, Michelle's good. Oh, no, Michelle's good. Michelle's much more there.

It's Michelle's much more there. She's accused of not being there enough, isn't she? I think why this book is so interesting is that, I mean, that's why it's a book, is that she hasn't cut her out. She's trying as best as she is physically able to be in contact with this woman, even though she finds it so difficult. And yet, that's her mother. But it's limited contact.

Yeah. Because those phrases, so it's not a complete disconnect, but she hasn't, she didn't want her mum to see her where she lived. You didn't want her to meet her boyfriend. I know then the mum follows her back. She gives her mum her address, her mum's insistence, so she can send her a card. She turns up, isn't she? But that's, do you know what I mean?

I think it's a very interesting choice to write about a character that doesn't completely disconnect because obviously there's a book about estrangement, but this is keeping that character in the tension of having to touch base with the person who made her. That's what this book is all about, isn't it? you said at the beginning of like constantly having to visit your phantoms, you're the people who made you. And also the deep, deep sadness you can have for someone while not being able to connect with them or make it better. And also like even love them, like the descriptions of their hugs when they are. Oh, I know.

This little skinny mum and her tiny shoulders putting her cheek next to when her mom sort of not hugging her back properly. I know. She does, she doesn't know. It feels like she doesn't know her to be a mum. And then it's funny, isn't it? Because there's the grandma as well. So you feel like she did have a relationship. she did have a nice mum

her mum seemed to have a nice mum and the daughter had a relationship with the grandma but it's like the moment the grandma dies it's sort of all and then I sort of wondered how much work the grandma was doing for this person that she was obviously translating a lot of the world for her

or supporting her or helping her navigate life but I just think it's such yeah it's such a good book like the right that I mean bleak in a like fair way I don't mean like, oh, don't pick it up, it's bleak.

I mean, like, it's real. It's so real. It's so honest. Yeah. And there's times when someone being that honest is like, you need a bit of a like, oh, I just need to break, Gwendolyn. Yeah. The first of my Reddit, I just kept thinking, how do you know?

Yeah. Do you know that so well? That's why I went on a bit of a Google and she was quite hard. She's been writing since she was 22. She's written loads of books. So I first came across when I was a judge for the women's prize all those years ago. Oh, yeah. her book First Love was my choice to put into the...

I was it. Yes. That was shortlisted. So you can't talk about it. So you have this conversation all around the table. I can't say. You've read that you've read that you want other people to read. I don't know, Sarah.

They go on the long list. Maybe it's true. So I put Wendy and Raleigh on our long list and then she was in our shortlist. First Love, which is a book. If you think this is bleak, then equally. But she's been shortlisted for Denham Thomas Prize, Goldsmith Prize, James Tate, Black Memorial Prize, Gordon Burn Prize. In 2018, the TLS named as one of the best living novelists in Britain and Ireland.

Yeah. Like, yeah. But I should say, I don't think she wants to be my friend. Oh. Just got that exact, because the same thing about the sort of hiddenness. I think she wants to be, I don't feel she wants to be anyone's friend, do you? No, no, so it wasn't, yes, but myself included. Sometimes, I think they'd be anyone's friend, but I could win them over.

Oh, yeah, yeah, no, she's a. Overvaluing my own charm. I don't think, I think if someone said, look, Gwendo and my, if someone, Someone said, oh look, Miranda July's over there, I'd have a punt. Yeah, yeah, I think she'd like you. If someone said Gwendolyn Riley's over there, I'd go, don't look. Leave alone. Leave, don't look.

Yeah, she's so cool, isn't she? And that's what I mean. The writing is like so, like, like, she could just magnified. Oh, that's what I feel. And then she just write a carriage and you go, oh, my God, she saw everything. Yeah, I feel like she'd see, she see you, like a magnifying mirror. Like, everyone looks shit that close. And that's what she's doing to these parents is like, they look shit because you're

It's so real what you're seeing them so in like the brightest light possible. And there's no like attempt to soften them or, but there is this, there is a weird love. It's not like she's horrible. It's not being horrible about them. It's just a little bit sometimes. There's a couple of incidences and I'm glad that they're there where you see that her attitude to her, her mom is a little bit cruel. Yeah. She doesn't, she doesn't always protect her and sometimes she's too harsh.

No, no. Sometimes she's just human. And you can see how to have a sort of. a gaze looking at you and you know this person does not forgive and love me. Yeah. They are judging me all of the time and that the mum can't relax either. But yeah, she's won multiple awards and she's a great, great writer. Like I feel I'm really glad that you're the one who handed this to me when we were

going to talk about it on the podcast and I'm really glad. And I definitely think it's not often a book can handle that many reads. Yeah. And I think that's a real sign of a good book if it can handle that many reads. I'm now maybe because of this podcast. developing a theory that rereads are important. What do you mean a theory? You're the first person to come up with that?

For my own writing. Oh, I see. Yeah, yeah. Because I'm a fast reader. I think both of us. Because I'm so desperate to find out what's going to happen. Hunger. And when you gobble something up, you miss things. You don't taste it.

And you miss, you don't taste it. And I'm missing things that I'm getting on second and third reads. Yeah. Where I'm going, oh, I can't learn about writing if I'm always just gobbling it. I've gone from a person who said I would never be able to read because I only cared about what was going to now going, I think this is important. So my theory is about myself.

Oh, right. I thought you were like, guys, read. There's also people watch films again and again and again. You know, appreciate it from a different point in their life. You know, becoming a parent is such a seismic event. I read this book for the first time as only a daughter and now I read it as a mom. I've only read it as a parent. Exactly.

So there were books where reread the point that you are in your life. Yeah, yeah. And I guess there are so many things that we want to read that are new. But sometimes going back and going, I can't remember it. I just remember it was brilliant. I would say if you've got a book like that on your shelf, read it again. Yeah, yeah. There are books that are so plot-driven and are designed to entertain you for that space of time.

And they're books like this, which are not remotely plot-driven, are doing something else. And like eating a pot of Ben and Jerry's or like going for a Michelin Star 3-course meal, like you need different nutrition at different times. Strong recommend. Yeah, 10 out of 10. Thanks everybody. Thanks for listening. Take care. Bye.

Thank you for listening to the Weirdo's Book Club. My Kids Picture Book, Where Does She Go? Is available to buy now. And I'm going to the Edinburgh Fringe in... So am I. Yeah, we're both are. See you there. I'm doing ostentatious.

And we're doing The Weirdo's Book Club live. And I'm doing a solo show at McEwen Hall. You can find out all about the upcoming books. We're going to be discussing this series on our Instagram at Sarah and Carriad's Weirdo's Book Club. And please join us on Patreon for lots more weird and wonderful stuff. We've started getting the authors to sign their books so we can send them to you. Yeah, and it'll be me and Sarah posting it,

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