Sara & Cariad's Weirdos Book Club - Nuclear Family by Kate Davies with Kate Davies

Episode Date: February 13, 2025

This week's book guest is Nuclear Family by Kate Davies.Sara and Cariad are joined by novelist, screenwriter and children’s author Kate Davies. Her novel In at the Deep End won the Polari Prize and she was shortlisted for the Bollinger Wodehouse Everyman Prize for Comic Fiction.In this episode they discuss fiction and truth, brothers, sports analogies, improv and FrankensteinThank you for reading with us. We like reading with you!Trigger warning: In this episode we discuss fertility, IVF, egg donation and coercion.Nuclear Family by Kate Davies is available to buy here.You can find Kate on Instagram @kateyemdaviesTickets for Sara's tour show I Am A Strange Gloop are available to buy from sarapascoe.co.ukSara’s debut novel Weirdo is published by Faber & Faber and is available to buy here.Cariad’s book You Are Not Alone is published by Bloomsbury and is available to buy here.Cariad’s children's book The Christmas Wish-tastrophe is available to buy now.Follow Sara & Cariad’s Weirdos Book Club on Instagram @saraandcariadsweirdosbookclub and Twitter @weirdosbookclub Recorded and edited by Naomi Parnell for Plosive.Artwork by Welcome Studio.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Sarah Pasco. Hello, I'm Carriad Lloyd. And we're weird about books. We love to read. We read too much. We talk too much. About the too much that we've read. Which is why we've created the Weirdos Book Club.

Join us. A space for the lonely outsider to feel accepted and appreciated. A place for the person who'd love to be in a real book club, but doesn't like wine or nibbles. Or being around other people. Is that you? Join us. Check out our Instagram at Sarah and Carriad's Weirdo's Book Club for the upcoming books we're going to be discussing. You can read along and share your opinions.

Or just skulk around in your raincoat like the weirdo you are. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you. This week's book guest is Nuclear Family by Kate Davies. What's it about? Well, it's a family pulled apart after the Christmas gifting of a DNA kit. What qualifies it for the weirdos book club? Well, thinking about the nature and nurture of what makes us us is absolute weirdness.

In this episode we discuss fiction and truth. Brothers. Improv. Sports analogies. and Frankenstein. And joining us this week is Kate Davies. Kate is an award-winning novelist and also children's writer. Her first book, In At the Deep End, won the Polari Prize.

Nuclear Family is her second published novel. Welcome, Kate. Thank you very much. We're very excited to be talking about your second novel, Nuclear Family. Thank you. So good. I enjoyed it so much. It's such a good read. I kept wondering.

We should probably say a little bit about it. Because the book starts at Christmas with someone, and this is quite common. Lena and her twin Alison, their mum has passed away, has died, and Lena buys a DNA kit for her dad for Christmas. And in the ensuing moment of him getting this kit and being very shocked, her dad, Tom, we find out that he's not the biological father. So that's not a spoiler.

She got them for her and her sister didn't she? Not for the dad. She got them for everyone. She was busy. Yeah. Yeah, it's like fun, family present. Let's all do DNA testing. So I've spent the whole time reading the book

and I asked Carrie yesterday. Oh, yes. wondering about doing a DNA. And I said, I would never do one. Yes. And I would never do one. Because we are afraid of what's out there. Yes.

That seems like a box of terrible worms. I don't want to open. It is a wormy box. Yeah. Not sure. Would you recommend it? I've done one. Yes.

I did it to reset. I was like, I'll write a book about this because I'm donor conceived. Oh, yeah. So I was like, I've always known I'm done and conceived. And I'm gay. So I was like, well, when I have a child, I'll use a donor. Yeah. I wonder what I really think about this.

Oh, right. A novel to find it why I really think about this. Let me do a 23-Me test to research the novel. That's a half-brother. Yeah. So while I was writing the book, basically the entire plot came true. Really? Next time I'm going to write about really rich people having a great time.

So you did it after you, because I wondered if you did it and then thought, oh, this is a good idea for a book. You were already writing a book. No, I was already writing. And I did a DNA test and I discovered a half-brother. He just like popped up. And it was very weird. I was at a wedding. And it was like, oh, my God, this goes my half-brother.

And he looked like. my brother who I was brought up with and he like had the same hobbies as here. You know, you're like, natural nature. Yes, yeah. And then he didn't know he was only conceived. Oh my God. And it's impossible to make it a one-way street, as in when you find out, they are notified.

Yeah, it's like, you have a half-siblings. You can't choose to sort of look, but, you know, private grounds. So then what happened? Did you meet him? So I messaged him and he didn't apply for about six months because I think he was like, oh, this is obviously a mistake because. Yeah. Because he didn't know he was don't exactly.

Yeah, because he was just like, oh, I'll just take a test because everyone's always told me I look Italian. And he didn't tell his parents. He didn't tell his parents at the time. And then when he kind of figured out, I think he figured out that it wasn't a mistake. And he did speak to his parents. And they were like, it's not true. They just completely denied it. But it's kind of amazing how people can like, here is the DNA.

They're like, nope. Yeah. So I'm in touch with him. But he has a sister who doesn't want to know. anything about it. I have a brother who doesn't want to know anything about it. Right. So it's quite, yeah, which is a bit, that did inspire this. Yeah, yeah. Book because there are the two sisters and the story react in really different ways.

Yeah, one of them doesn't really want to know anything about it and one of them does. Yeah, Lena is like driving, I want to know who are these people, who am I, and Allison is like, no things. That was, I was kind of sort of in the middle. So I think, well, basically, if you don't tell your children they're don't have conceived, yeah, when they find out. Yeah. They often feel like their identity is a lie, half their life is a lie. They need to find out who they are.

And my half brother definitely felt like that. He was like, I'm going to find our biological father. Whereas I was a little bit like, oh, no, no. Like half brothers are cool because, or half siblings are cool because like, there's no limit on siblings, right? But if you feel, I felt my parents are my parents, you know, I wasn't like DNA doesn't matter, but I was like, I have a father. Yeah, I'm good.

You don't need another one. It's a scary idea. You grew up knowing that you don't know me. You were not having this explosion that your real half-brother was like, who am I? And it's a very different. It's a bit like adoption, isn't it? They say the same thing. If your child knows from as soon as they can understand.

Yeah. It's very different to just finding out at 16. It's just not a, it's part of who you are. Yeah. And I've never felt like anything was missing because. Yeah. So in a way it was kind of strange. So my half-brother went on this thing to find out who our biological father was and we found, we found him or he found him.

and he was like, this is now our father, like, you know, like this is our family. And I was like, it's not. He's a guy that we're related to. And I found it quite challenging, actually. I was like, oh, I've always looked in the mirror and seen my face, like, this is me. And now I'm seeing this random stranger's face. It's quite weird. Does this make, you know, like, if he's this kind of person, does that mean I'm this kind of person?

It really threw me for a little while. And now I'm fine again. Did he, did you, have you met your real dad? Yes, I've met him. Yeah. Yeah. He's a really nice guy. And he's got two kids.

And so, like, they reacted really well to it. Often, these men were, the men who donated in, like, the 80s, were told that no one would ever find them was anonymous. Right. They might have done it for money or they might have done it for various reasons. You know, they never expected anyone to come and find them. So often they react really badly. Yeah. When it was such new science.

Yeah. And so some of them are, you know, send cease and desist letters or a lot of the time their families are really threatened by it, whereas this guy was already married, he already had kids by the time he donated. So they reacted really well. And so it's kind of like having extra cousins almost, which is quite nice. But it's, but it's odd, it's strange. It is.

So he married with two kids and then unbeknownst to him, he actually has, my maths is so bad. He actually has six children. Yeah, or probably more. Probably more for that, yeah. Because there is a limit of 10 families in this country. So that could be quite a lot of kids. But now, because most people buy sperm from America or Denmark, there's no limit on the number of children.

One man's sperm can create. Society change, technology change. And then we go, oh, no, I do want to know who I am. So I think that's it. It's always technology does it first. And then we're like, oh, my God, we can do that. Should we? Yeah, yeah, should we?

As they said in Jurassic Park, they were trying so hard to see if they could. They didn't stop to think if they should. One of the greatest lines ever said by Jeff Goldham. So this is kind of all inspiration for this book, which is why this book I think is so interesting because it does feel very, not zeitgeist, but modern. You know what I mean? You're like, oh, you couldn't have written this book in 1985.

So it's exciting to read a book with that. Also something that is very, I guess, like verboten, people who don't like to politely talk about it, is growing up with a sibling is what makes, you have incest disgust? And if you don't have it... I wonder where you were going and then I remembered the book. Oh yeah.

Oh, I just bring this kind of thing up. So my mum, she did long-lost families, long-lost families, and she discovered, well, she knew they were looking for twin brothers that were legally adopted, and she's a twin, and then they found them. Yeah. And then the situation, I mean,

she really, really bonded with one of her brothers to the point that his wife wouldn't want them to see each other anymore. because exactly as your character experiences, you can have this electrical, and it's not a sexual attraction if you're aware. Yes. I mean, there are lots and lots of people who find out they're related

and then get together. Yeah, yeah. But what it is is this compulsion for a person. Yeah. And all of the things that happen from growing up around someone. So it can be really difficult, very confusing, I think, a set of emotions. Yes. Yeah.

And you tackle that. There's a lot you're tackling in this book. So yeah, Lena does discover, well, goes on this mission to find her, you know, this other family and she finds a half-brother. Yeah, it's not a spoiler, is it? Say, like, she struggles to tell him quite what's going on. Yeah, so he's on the DNA website, but he hasn't checked his messages. So she has tried to message him. Yeah, and also he's famous.

And it's much, yeah. He's a famed. He's a bit famous. He's blue-ticked, which I thought, yeah, I thought, I was a really funny line of like, well, he's blue-ticked. And he was in Game of Thrones. So we know who he is. Yeah. And they...

He's got 24.7,000... Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's pretty good. It's pretty good. It's not nothing. It's not nothing. And they have formed this friendship, but obviously the brother,

the half-brother doesn't quite know their relationship. But that, I thought it was really interesting. Lainer's kind of, like you said, that compulsion to need to know who she is. Yeah. And by any means possible, whether it is lying to someone,

lying to herself, lying to her half-brother, like lying to her twin sister, lying to her dad. And also just not being able to, rest. I mean, she can't go to sleep. Her brain is so busy with those questions. Yeah, yeah. And I guess that's the kind of thing you can't choose. Yes. If it really matters to you, you can't go, okay, I'm just not going to know. That person is not going to message me back. Yeah.

I feel like she gets addicted to Daniel. Yeah, yeah. I'm quite an obsessive person. I get obsessed to people, not my half siblings, but that I know that feeling of like, this isn't good for me. I need to see this person again. She feels like that about him, which I just thought was fun. Yeah. I was having lots of fun with that. Daniel is a very fun character because it's really nice to see the edges of someone being a knob. Yeah. Just, you know, being rude to waiters and splashing cash or needing proper tacos. Oh, God.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's really nice to see people going to Soho House when you don't have to go with them. Is that why you wanted to make him famous to give him like an extra edge? Yeah. And for kind of an extra little reason. Well, also a kind of way for her to be obsessed with him. That's kind of... Because she can look him up online and watch games around again.

There's quite lost. Yeah, there's a little material for her to find. And it kind of also, there's like a power imbalance a little bit, that, you know, he's a little bit of celebrity as well. So it kind of makes him even more kind of hard to get in a way. Yeah, and they're related to, it's interesting because she is not from that world and is very successful in her own job. So she becomes interesting to him in that way because she's not an actress hanging around

being like, oh, I love you. But did we presume? Did we? I don't know. I presumed that he's a, her appeal to him was on a DNA level. Yeah, I think that was there as well. Yeah, but I also thought it's interesting to like knowing actors as we do.

That when someone's not from the world and they're, but they've success from the very different field, there's also a little bit of an ego thing going on of like, oh, this really impressive person is into me, not just actors. I've seen people do that and that's so her house world of like, oh, this is my friend that are actually like really important in the UN or something. Like something when everyone's like, oh, they're from the world. real world because like another famous actor being into you is like so what i think because they're

there they're always interested in being with the most famous person in the room oh yes but like if he is the most famous person in there's something there's like a kudos of being like not only am i attractive to all these people in my media here is someone from a different world that wants to be and they're successful what there is is people who aren't very bright thinking if they're having a conversation with a lawyer than they are yes yes that's what i meant that's what i mean yes he's like It's like, not like a lawyer, it's like my friend. And everyone being like, oh. So they ask the question, like, what do you do?

And when they're going, I don't understand and go, yeah, yeah, accounting, right? Yeah, yeah. It doesn't work for accounting. It's got to be, it's got to be, yeah, very intellectual. But it was a DNA connection. Yeah. Like, they were obviously. And she, you know, recognises that's what it is, but he doesn't know.

So he mistakes it for attraction. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Yes. And I, when I met my first half, interestingly, I've met, I'm a few of them now. But the first of them now. But the first. one I met who was also only conceived, I felt that, like, that first date feeling of like,

I'm so in the moment, you're the only person in the world, you know, like, everything else is sort of blurry and I'm not going to focus on you. That feeling is so strange. Yeah. Really kind of amazing. Didn't have it with the other ones. Don't know why. But like it was, no, it's not a sexual thing, but it is this kind of feeling. Do you ever have, I think it's a bit that compulsion, like, I get this with old photos of obsessively looking for yourself. And like, so like, I'm talking like great, great grandparents. You're like, do I look like them? Is that like, you read a story and you're like, is that like me?

Is that like me? You're trying to place yourself. Yes. In a family. And I like, yeah, I don't know if that's because my dad is dead and it's often that side of the family. I'm much more like, like, we found all these diaries to my great-grandmother. And she was like this insanely brilliant, mad, like, matriarch.

And I was like, oh, gosh, she's so strong and so being noted. You're trying to like slot yourself into a past generation. It makes you feel more stable. But also there are parts of yourself. the self is such a fluid thing and it doesn't make a lot of sense and it feels like if you find something you know in a generation

two previously the idea that it is hardwired it's like what a relief yes I am this I have always been this it gives you something really solid yeah that's what I mean it's something about belonging isn't it? And I think if you think about shows like who do you think you are yeah so really

I mean there are so many factors that shape a person and we all believe that you know nurture is a really massive sort of shaping force, but we do love to watch someone going, bo, bo, bo, bo, there's the maths of who I am. I love that show so much. Yeah, people love that show. I love that show. You talk about in the books, so, again, so interestingly, this sort of different layers

of what it means to be a donor. So we have, Lena and Alison are donor conceived, but then also Alison is gay and in a relationship, and they are trying to have a baby through a donor, which Lina is really, really struggling with morally and ethically, even though it's. absolutely fuck all of her business. Yeah, it's really problematic, isn't it? Yeah, but I... Her reaction to Alison.

Just, as I was going to say, just the restrictiveness of her view. But I enjoyed reading that because I... Because I could feel... Lainer's got like... What's they say? Like, I want to say bone in her teeth, which is not the expression.

Yeah. But I mean, but it fits... What'd you say? Bit between her teeth? A bit between the teeth. Is that an expression? Okay. Lainer's got obsessed.

Yeah. And so then it's... The thing is, I'm an upset. person and I related to Elena being it ruins everything it's ruining everything because all she can think about which means it's then affecting her relationship with her sister rather than having the ability to put something down and go well that's how I'm feeling about my dad and that's separate she's like every donor conceived. And there's a brilliant bit where she's talking to Alison and she says like she just couldn't leave it and I thought oh god I know that feeling just stop talking

just stop talking like Alison has gone okay I hear you it's difficult for you that we're getting a donor maybe just stop talking about it and maybe it's not about you but and And I guess, so I was going to ask you about the forums because Lena goes on forums and there are people and it's a really odd thing to read, but people who find out their donor conceived and then wish that it hadn't happened. But as we know, I mean, the really big picture is you only exist because of the way that you exist. Yeah. Whether that is infidelity or, you know, a donor in all of those kind of ways. Yeah. It's that or nothing.

Yeah. Yeah. So did you read a lot of people in forums? Yeah. And it was really weird because I'd always been completely fine. I've been like, cool, I'm don't have conceived. How interesting, it was an interesting fact about myself. I started researching it, found these forums. I felt so uncomfortable reading them.

Because obviously the people who are going on the forums, a lot of them have just found out. So they're in a really emotional, completely traumatized. Really, like my entire life is a lie. Like, if I don't know who my parent is. And it's like they often describe it as being in the Truman show, like everybody knew and I didn't know. So what can you trust?

Like they're really freaked out. So they think it is wrong. Or, you know, and all the people who stay in it are like self-selecting, I suppose, that, you know, people who have a problem with it. But then there are also people who believe, which I do now believe,

like that the industry needs more tighter regulations. It isn't great to have hundreds of half siblings around the world. It's very hard for people to deal with that. It's not fantastic. And like I don't think people necessarily know, Like there was just a guardian headline the other day. It was like the main headline was like, British sperm is being exported around the world.

So the family limit isn't what it says it is. And I'm like, yeah, I know. Like that isn't a secret. That isn't a splash guardian. But like they don't tell you that. So like there are things about it that I do think are problematic. But I don't think there's anything wrong with Donor Conception. But I do think there's something wrong with the industry.

Well, actually the money side of it, your characters go through a situation where Suria is going to have her eggs harvested for her own. IVF, which is incredibly expensive, and she's told that the IVF round will be free if she donates half of her eggs. I know. And that's really heartbreaking, because that's not a choice. It's not someone saying, do you know what, I've got so many eggs, I'm 34. Yeah.

We don't need all of these. Shall we help another family? Financial coercion is still coercion. Yeah. Free IVF treatment for donating your eggs is payment because that's a hugely expensive thing to go through. So. Yeah.

And people who could easily afford that IVF wouldn't do it. Yeah. I mean, because there aren't people going. through my fear, going, actually, do you know what? Give these away. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then what you then have is someone who in the moment,

I can absolutely imagine things, yeah, we can deal with that if we don't get pregnant and someone else does. And then you actually don't know what that's going to feel like because that is such a, there's so many existential things going on now. I don't think the human mind can conceive, no pun intended, of how that will feel. And so it happens and you go, oh, it feels like that. Which is why I really enjoyed the character of Lena being the slight devil's

advocate of raising these problems, which, you know, where she's saying them to her twin sister and her twin sister's partner sound awful because it does sound like she's saying, oh, well, you as queer women, you can't have kids. But what you can see, but what she is raising is there is a, there is a problem here, isn't it? Like, well, how do we do this? How do we, if you are given the choice to have IVF, but it's free if you give your eggs away and then you don't get pregnant, then what? And it's like, yeah, it's really, well, I don't have the answers as a reader. I'm like, I don't know, Kate, you tell me. But also, I think, and especially having been through the process,

a lot of the things they call counselling in fertility is a form. Oh, really? So that kind of situation where they would be checking that you understood the ramifications of giving your eggs away, they're filling out a form. It's not a counselling counselling. Yeah, it's like, do you understand? Yes, OK, Tick, you understood.

And we've had a big chat. Yeah. And you seem like you're okay with that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I had, when I, there's like a DNA database, through kind of, I don't think it's the NHS, but it's like if you're donor conceived,

you can register on this official UK database and they give you a free counselling session. So I called them up because I was like, I've just found, like, I've just found my biological father and I'm kind of thrown, I'm thinking of having a child with the donor, blah, blah, blah. And she was, she was employed by,

basically, they ran this kind of like DNA database, but basically she was a counsellor for people donating their sperm. She just couldn't see it from the child's point of view. She's just like, oh yeah, but I always tell them. the men, they're just being, I always tell the donors, they're just, um, the parents buddy. I think I actually put this in the book. She was like, they're just, they're just,

they're just helping out the parents. So that's what they're doing. And I'm like, is but I'm telling you that as a child, I'm now thrown and I'm like, is this man the biological father? He's not your father. He's just, and I'm like, you are literally, you cannot see it from the, the donor can see the person point of view because your entire job is basically to make the donors and the parents to feel okay. Yeah, it's all right. It's all right. It's all right. It's all right. So it's minimizing the emotion. So it's all right. So it's all right. So it's minimizing the emotional ramifications because people wouldn't do it as often or as easily if they realize how huge the ramifications. I think it's very hard when a living person, like you said, not a child,

a child grown up is like, here's what I thought about it. I think people find that really difficult when a child grown up goes like, this is what it's like when this happens to you at this age and everyone's like, no, I don't think so. It can't have been that bad. You're like, no, I'm, I'm tired because they don't want to hear that. And I think, was that, that must have been really interesting for you, as you said, being donor conceived and then for your own fertility journey, going to use a donor, like what was that like in terms of thinking about this child and where you had come through? I don't know, it's very, so before I wrote the book, I thought I would just use a donor. I was going to go buy some sperm from anywhere. Yeah. It's been a manner. Then I was like, okay,

I'm going to limit my search to like the UK because, you know, then I'll know, I don't know, this smaller pool they don't export it as much you know I kind of went down there and then the more I kind of research and thought about it um especially the two one of the big things for me was the two children wanting to know different amounts about their biological father and I was like oh if I have two kids I don't want one of them to want to want to want to want to see I hate secrets I hate all that kind of thing um so I ended up asking a friend to donate in the end um because again and again on I was like I was like how can I do this correctly because I kind of internalised all those voices from the forums.

I was like, I don't know how if my child, you know, I'm fine with it, but like what if my child grows up and thinks it was wrong or doesn't like having 200 half siblings? Or doesn't like the mystery of it? Or doesn't like the mystery of it until they're like however old. And so I was like, oh, I'll just, I'll ask a friend. But if I hadn't, and my lovely friend agreed to be our known donor, which is really, it's lovely. But if he hadn't agreed, I didn't have any, you know, like there, you know, there's not an unlimited

pool of people that you know. Yeah, yeah. And so I would have to have a job. Imagine the politics of asking someone and then being like, oh, of course it. And then they find out you ask 40 other men. You're like, you're on number nine. Oh, she asked you as well.

Yeah. Let's like tell you what I said no. I just lost your housebiz. You know what she's like, no, no. We've got a WhatsApp group. Do not say, yes. Don't do it. But that was because I think, and before,

I have a lot of empathy with the parents who are like, it's all fine, it's all fine. Because before my son was born, we were like, oh, yeah, you know, we're going to be one big family and like we're not dad so it doesn't matter like if the child wants to call will dad that's fine because we're not dads then as soon as I was born the hormones were like yeah fuck off like really like this is my child get away get away like knives knives like I am being threatened these people want to take my like apps I went absolutely insane

and everyone goes insane yeah lovely safety of that's true yeah but it's interesting to be insane with I guess what seemed like reasons yeah I was like these people are going to take my child away They're going to take my child away. And I suddenly got, we don't call Will dad. We call him donor dad because it felt too threatening to me. And I'm like, how will I feel if my son grows up and like, is like, this is my daddy? It's really difficult because you're fighting sort of the rest of society where the word dad means a certain set of things. So if you use that language, it's why you don't call people husband or wife when they're not.

Yeah, yeah. Because you go, oh no, we've just reframed the word. Yeah. No, no, there's some ramifications with that language. Yeah, exactly. And like to me, a daddy is like a man who brings you up and does like proper parenting. And Will is like a lovely guy who we see quite a lot and he is definitely our family, but he doesn't do parenting. Yeah. So I had a dad who didn't live in the house or all the same country. But so dad was someone who saw every few weeks and he took you bowling. But it still has had emotional ramifications, you know. Yeah. Because. Yeah, because he's your dad. Yes. Because he's your dad, which is very different to, you know. Friendly uncle who did you bowl. He had a relationship with my mom, et cetera, et cetera.

There are all these other things coming up, which donor dad doesn't have. Yeah. Yeah. He wasn't part of your relationship. Yes, exactly. And you say that in the book, don't you? Like, when Lena is sort of like on one about it and like, and I think Alison says it doesn't you?

She's just like, well, then what am I? Like, she's like, yeah. If Saria has the baby and the donor is coming to her and I'm the other mother, but then you're like, but, you know, you focus so much on dad, what is the other mother? And then again, I thought it was really interesting what you did later on when it turns out, I don't want to spoil it, but it turns out that maybe Syria isn't going to be the one that carries a child, which means they won't be, they'll be a white child. And Syria won't be able to have any of her heritage or her cultural heritage, including that child.

And you do, it's just, it's deeply complicated all this stuff, isn't it? And also the forms, because if you have to say you don't know who the dad is to otherwise they'll put the dad in on the form and the other one has to adopt her child. Yeah. They've changed that now. They changed it now. Yeah, when I was born, they told my dad to lie and say he was the father so that he wouldn't have to adopt. But now it's, now you have both parents on the form. So me and Spud are like one parent, two.

Oh, that's good. That's good. Can we talk about the character of Tom? Yes, I was just thinking, gosh, you've got to talk about Tom, the dad. Lano and Allison's dad. Brought them up. Yeah. Lovely guy.

So nice. Really adorable. We're a great book guy. Yeah. Yeah, he's, he made me jealous for dads. I was like, oh, that's a good dad. I mean, obviously he's grieving. We know at beginning that, you know, he's asked his wife only two years ago,

so it's relatively recently. But he's got a next-door neighbour who he knew years and years ago, and she's got a feminist book group. And he's going on his own journey, which is that his children, his children have just found out that there was a donor, and yet for one of those children, that means that she was now on this journey, and he does end up being sort of very helpful to her, even though it's so hard. I say he was a good dad.

Yeah. I think he's a good dad, too. Yeah. It's a good dad. But I think that worked for the characters because you can tell, even though Lina's having this like blip of emotion, you can tell that she was brought up loved. Yeah.

Like it's rocking her, but it's not destroying her. Like this isn't a book of like, destroying trauma. This is like, oh gosh, this is who am I and it's making me change everything. Or who will love me?

Yeah. She's so loved. And that baseline of lovelness, I think, is like the most important thing. Like, if you read any books on trauma, it's like, well, you loved. If you were loved.

This might be easier to get through if you weren't. Whoa, sorry guys. And I think that's what comes across if Tommy's such a warm character. He clearly has loved these children as if they were his own. Yeah. And he's now having to deal with one of them saying you're not my dad. But it would never occur to you. It would so rarely occur to you.

I've got a dog, right? Which is nothing like having a child. Yeah, I never, when I hold his little face. Yeah. My most precious boy is do I think, I didn't give birth to you? Yeah. That just doesn't occur to me. No.

And like seeing, obviously, my dad isn't related to me, and he is 100% my dad. And my wife isn't related to my son. And she was the first person to hold him. Like, you couldn't be more of a parent than that. So it's not that they're not his own. They're just not related to him. Like, it's a... Yeah.

It's a really difficult thing because what we're saying is... And he always knew so he's going through different emotions. It wasn't a bombshell to him. No. It's how they're reacting. Yeah. But what we're saying is, like, you know, you're saying... someone you're related to, there is a thing.

It is important. It does make you feel stable and live. But also there's people who are not related to you, who also are family absolutely, and there's no question that, but both things are true. And so it's not as simple as like, which I think we grew up.

I think that 80s idea was very like, it doesn't matter. Yeah. Who cares? Your dad, your dad. End the story. Whereas you're like, there's a bit more than that.

I think that's what, you know, that phrase like, oh, it's everything and nothing. Yeah. It's exactly that. You can sort of minimize it if you really want to. You could make a certain argument. You can put stuff in,

and cabinets and go right, bang, it's nothing, or it's absolutely everything. How do you feel now about this situation? Do you feel like this book helped you resolve all of these things? Yeah, I mean, like, completely changed the way I had children. You know, that's interesting. Like, I'm very happy with the way we decided to do it, and we would have done it differently, I think, if I hadn't written the book. And yeah, I think it did, it is, yeah, it has, I think I've come around to the same place that I started from, which is that what matters most is love. Like, do you love this child?

And if you do, that is the thing that matters most. And that is the foundation that all of us need. But I think when I stuck, before I started, when I was growing up, I was very much like, it's all about nurture. It's all about nurture. And then I went through this little wobbly bit of like, oh, hang on a minute. Have I been lying to myself? Is it all nature?

And I think I've kind of come around to a synthesis of it at the end. Yeah. But kind of like back into the nurture bit, I do think that is the most important thing. It's the only bit you can control. It's only been in control. And I think, okay, I can do this better or try and, I mean, that feels more useful. Yeah, it's true. And that's why Tom's such a great character in the book, because he has nurtured them so beautifully and love them.

And it's still doing it. I'm still doing it. I know. And it's also on his own journey of self-discovery and life after death and grief and moving forward with his own life. I wanted to ask you about the, I said, I loved the book. group. And I said to Fariad yesterday, a lot of the books we've been reading have got book groups in because so many authors also love reading. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Frankenstein, does that book mean a lot to you? And there's some really good Mary Shirley facts in there. Mary Walston-Crafts.

Yeah. God, the puppies. The puppy thing. Yeah. I went on this writing retreat and one of the women was like, it was an academic and she told me that story. And I was like, this is going, right in the book. Can you tell the story? Because we should. Yeah. It's quite a sad story. I was going to say it's really. Just do the highlighted. Just do the highlighted. This is absolutely devastating. I think it is.

So she, I can't even remember. Now I can't remember the story. She had just given birth and she had. She got an infection. And they, A fever. And they thought at the time that this fever came from the breast milk being bad. And so they got puppies to suck the breast milk out of her to take away the fever.

Because that's it. They thought if the baby took the bad breastle could be bad for the baby. So the baby doesn't look the milk. The mum has bloody puppies on her. Yeah. But it didn't work and she died. And it was germs from the doctor's hands. Yes, it was germs from the doctor's hands, not from her bare breast.

See, I meant to say, did she breastfed puppies? Just don't go into the other stuff. Because that's actually. She was sort of unhinged. Let's spread that very much. Yeah. She was into breastfeeding puppies. Yeah.

The whole Mary Shelley, Mary Wilsoncroft stories already, it's just so sad. Yeah, it's just so sad. And in that book. And it's really interesting because I think I've always heard, Frankenstein, like, very casually, like, oh, it's about childbirth and this. But I thought what you did was, like, actually, you know, talk about it in terms of, like, yeah, don't don't a conception and what it means to choose. Yeah.

Really wanting a child. However. At whatever cost. Yeah. And having no control about who they are. Yeah. And then the child being really angry with you for creating them, which is just, there just did seem to be quite a lot of parallels.

I love it. I think we should read Frankenstein for the podcast. Is it scary? Yeah. Is that? It's not scary. It's a literary. masterpiece. The reason I think I'm interested, because I'm researching Jane Austen

at the moment, because they were, well, Mary Walsoncroft and Jane Austen were contemporaries, it's just so crazy to think of their Pride and Predidus and Frankenstein existing in the same, the same world at the same time. It's a lovely, lovely book that covers a lot of really, really heavy stuff. Yeah, thanks. Is that your intention as well to kind of talk about these big topics, but still make them easy reading? Well, I like, weirdly, I've always, I've heard your interview, David Nichols, who is one of my favourite writers, and I've always kind of tried to write books a bit like David Nichols, like lots of dialogue, heartwarming, bitter sweet. But for some reason, I always want to write about things that are a bit on the edge,

like a little bit like that I don't know what I think about them. Yeah. Which is sort of, so it's kind of a strange combination of like a heartwarming read with slightly difficult subjects. Yeah. It's a great combination. Yeah, I think writing is the same as stand-up comedy and that you can't be a different act. Yeah.

But your brain just finds fascinating what it finds fascinating. I've been reading that George Saunders as from in the pond and the rain and he has a whole chapter about like look you might want to be clever but sadly when you write you might be an idiot and that's just your voice and he's like look we all want to be the clever people

but you might start writing and you might find out that you're quite funny and stupid and lean into that rather than trying to be something in life I really really tried to write one liners I sort of hated that I was a woman at the beginning and I hated that people were expecting a certain thing when I came on

so I just wanted to have like He's like watertight one line that's play on words. And every time I open my mouth, a secret would come out. And eventually you just have to go, well, that's what you're doing now. Yeah, yeah. And you just watch the one line of comics going, oh, if only. Because before this, we should say you wrote in at the deep end, which won the Polari Prize, which we also covered the Whale Tattoo by John Manson that also won the Polaro Paras.

Yeah. Yeah, after you, I think. Yeah. Which was very spicy, literally on the cover. Another good cover. So, yeah, you've been writing. like you said about these slightly more, yeah, I guess. What's in at the deep end about it?

In the deep end, it's about a girl who, a woman of 26 who has a really terrible one-night stand and with a man and decides she's never going to have sex again. And then she realizes that she's a lesbian. And she's like, great, now I will always have really feminist sex and a really equal relationship. And she gets into a controlling relationship. So it's like they marketed it as a, like a lesbian, Bridget Jones.

And it is like funny, first person book. but actually it's about a controlling relationship. So, and there's a lot of sex in it. Yeah, it's... Someone described your view of, like, she doesn't shy away from, like, many authors, she doesn't, like, turn her face when we get to the bedroom or something. So I was like, yeah, you're fine with that.

Yeah, yeah. But it's funny because I'm not, like, that's not something I'd talk about, but when I, that book was interesting, like, I wrote it, and then read it back and was like, well, obviously when I have to take all this, I absolutely feel that. Because, but then I left it in because I was like,

no, actually those are the strongest, bits of the book because it's very relevant because if it's the bad sex with a man that made her not want to have sex again you have to sort of know what happened yeah just tell me it was bad yeah and then same if you're in a coercive sexual relationship with a woman the sex is going to be important yes exactly yeah and it was important to the narrative but also i feel like you'll probably find this in your comedy when you you sort of say things that make you feel vulnerable you say things that you wouldn't normally dare to say out loud and then people feel really seen, you know, that kind of feeling.

That's quite a powerful thing to be able to do. It fast-tracks intimacy. Did you know that journalists, one of the things they teach you in training is to confess something at the beginning. Interesting. And then it makes the person you're interviewing really warm up. And also we have this odd human thing where if someone tells us something, we feel an urge to share something so they don't feel embarrassed.

Yeah. And it's like, oh, it's horrible. Yeah. But that's it, they can sort of fake it. Although, or if it's not quite faking what it is, it's a tactic. Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah.

But I like that. I kind of want that in the things that I consume. And I quite like to do that, to like be really vulnerable to like, I'm a bit of an overshare in life. But I quite like to do that in art. And you also write kids' picture books. I do. Really, really filthy.

Yeah, yeah. Those are the kind of like escapist. Those are warm, but no, no, it's biographical material. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you get to just write the story without having to like share. Yes. too personal. Exactly.

Would you ever write anything for children about donor conception? Or is that of no interest? Interesting. I would do that. There's definitely a picture book that needs to be. Yeah. You should write that. Because there's the children who have found out or are going through it or understanding.

And it's for other children to understand. Or parents trying to talk to that, explain it. How do you explain it? You know, in a class at school, children will be conceived in all different ways. Yeah. It's called, he's not your dad. But he still loves you. Don't call him dad.

Yeah. Yeah. I would do that. I haven't. I think there are some that do exist, but there, I can think there's room for another one. Yeah, I definitely. That's a good idea. Can I ask about improv? Please. Because Kate and Carriot, this is how you met in the improv circuit. Yeah, yeah, the input world, yeah. So do you think that being an improviser makes you a better writer? Definitely. Don't you? I think it makes you better able to cope with, like, the hardness of writing, when it feels like you're failing in verticomers. I think your improv brain is trained to be like,

I'm not failing, just carry on writing, start again. I think it gives you a good, like, armour for those bits. I think so. I feel like doing things like the Harold makes you better a structure. Oh, yeah. I think the how old we should say is an improv. An improv form. That stuff's great for writing comedy.

Yeah. We try, I'm now, I do musical improv and we try to improvise a full, like full musical with a plot. And we're, you know, very into structure like three-act structure. So we're kind of being able to, improvise a three-act structure and I do three-act structure in my books, I think it helps to kind of get that like rhythm inside you. And I don't know, yeah, I think it just makes you a bit freer. Yeah. And I think it works the other way around as well, like being obviously, being able

to write makes you a better improviser. Yeah, I think so. I think they best definitely help each other. But I would, it's one of this, I don't think like everyone should know. I definitely used to be at the feel like, everyone should do improv and I'm like, no, no, some people it really helps. It's interesting because with stand-up comedy, improv doesn't help in the way stand-up comedians think it will. Yes, I agree. Sound-up comedians don't slot well into a group. Those maverick, lone wolves, turn-up. Quite often, when we were doing courses, you know, a decade and a half ago,

stand-ups were coming because they thought it would help them with crowdwork, which is nothing to do with story structure, you know, supporting a game or anything like that. It's to do with speed of put-down. Which isn't, which is not an improved thing. No, no. I think it can open up a part of your brain that is very, is like, again, it's like the room next to stand-up comedy and writing. They're all in the same house in your brain,

but it's a different room. It's completely different room and it requires different skills. But like it's helped, you know, I don't know, it's like if you ride a bike and then you start learning to ride a skateboard, it's like they're different things, but they might, balance is good, right? So you're going to need both of those things, but it's not exactly the same thing.

Yeah. And I think that's why I get chippy about it. Of course. And also because you've done, you've done it. Because, so if I can use a sport analogy. I went for bike. That's here in football. Yeah.

You have to pass the ball. Whereas stand-up comedy has taught you. I mean, there's no one there. Yeah, yeah. You have to run along the pitch yourself and score a goal. So in an improv scene, and this is not all comedians, obviously, don't at me. But we have seen stand-up comedians. They're not listening to our book.

They're not. They're talking over it. But you watch them in a scene, start talking and not stop talking, and they can't pass. When I used to teach. You have to unlearn that. When I was teaching back in the day, if you were teaching a group of people, a stand-up, if it was in the class, you'd watch them in the scene and they would face the audience and they would not look left or right. And there would be people there being like, we could help you. I have an idea and they would just look at the audience or the one person I decided, like, I'm going to only talk to you. Do it at you.

Yeah. And then you'd be like afterwards, oh, did you see like Kate was ready and she was going to come in as obviously like your mum? No. Did you see like Sarah was there ready to be a waitress? No. And that's what I found like their circle is so small and focused to the audience. And that's the thing with improv, your focus needs to be sideways to your team players. Also, you physiologically get a fear of a quiet audience.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because you're at every cell of you is panicking. Like they've been quiet. Well, it's like that American office amazing episode where Michael Scott goes to improv class. I haven't seen that one.

It's the greatest one. Michael Scott. He just constantly gets a gun out. Because he's like, what's the most dramatic thing that can happen in life? They're like, oh, welcome to the shop. And he's like, Michael, have you got a gun? No. And he like gets it out.

Just has a gun in every scene. And that's like, yeah, China. There were people queuing up at the sides. He's shooting them as well. They're like, I'm not even in the scene. It is the perfect. It's written by people. who definitely taught improv.

There's a broad city episode as well. Oh, God, yes. Where she goes to watch some improv. And she like dies. She's like crawling along the floor because it's so bad. It's so mad at the guy she's dating does improv, doesn't it? She's like, oh, this is so awful. It's too easy to parody.

Yeah. But I think it's a great skill. I think it's obviously, it's brilliant. I feel like it helps with life. Yes, I do. Giving a speech. Yeah. Having a conversation.

You know, I read a nice article about how improvisers are good partners. And I'm married to an. improviser and the thing about listening and trying to be present and all of, I mean, and even like the yes and rule of like building on what someone's offering. Yes, exactly. I mean, improvisers are good people. Um, Kate, thank you. Are you writing a new book? Oh yeah. I am writing a new book and it's a historical novel so in 1950s New York. So that's a whole different thing. And what I meant to say to you outside was you should read ex-wife by Ursula Parrott, which we covered, which has just been re-released. It's 1920s New York, but I think it still has like super incredible vibe.

I think you'll like it. I think it's up your alley. Kate, thank you so much. Thank you so much. Coming to it, Nuclear Family is available to buy now. It's out in paperback and it is just a brilliant, brilliant read. We loved it. Thank you.

Thank you for listening to The Weirdo's Book Club. The Paperback of Nuclear Family by Kate Davies is out now. My novel Weirder and Carriad's children's book, The Christmas Wish Tastrophe, are available in shops now. You can find out all about the upcoming very. books we're going to be discussing, head to Instagram. Search for at Sarah and Carriads Weirdo's Book Club. Thank you for reading with us.

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