Sara & Cariad's Weirdos Book Club - Queenie Is Working On It by Candice Carty-Williams with Candice Carty-Williams

Episode Date: July 16, 2026

This week's book guest is Queenie is Working on It by Candice Carty-Williams.Sara and Cariad are joined by the award-winning author and showrunner, Candice Carty-Williams.In this episode they discuss fertility, skincare, self-care, hen dos and hot TFL staff.Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you!Follow Sara & Cariad’s Weirdos Book Club on Instagram @saraandcariadsweirdosbookclubProduced, recorded and edited by Naomi Parnell for Plosive.Assistant Producer is Amy Townsend-Lowcock for Plosive.Artwork by Welcome Studio.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Sarah Pasco. And I'm Carriead Lloyd. And we're weird about books. We love to read. We read too much. We talk too much. About the too much that we've read. Which is why we created the Weirdo's Book Club. A space for the lonely outsider to feel accepted and appreciated. Each week we're joined by amazing comedian guests and writer guests to discuss some wonderfully and crucially weird books, writing, reading and just generally being a weirdo. You don't even need to have read the books to join in. It will be a really interesting, wide-ranging conversation and maybe you'll want to read the book afterwards. We will share all the upcoming. books we're going to be discussing on our Instagram, Sarah and Carriads, Weirdo's Book Club. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you. This week's book guest is Queenie is working on it by Candice Carty Williams. What's it about? Well, Queenie's back and sorting her life out, but the path of getting your shit together does not run smooth. What qualifies it for the Weirdo's Book Club? Well, you'll never look at Space NK the same way again. In this episode, we discuss fertility, skincare, self-care, hendos, and hot TFL stuff. us this week is Candice Carty Williams herself. Candice is a novelist, showrunner, culture writer,

and was author of the Book of the Year award-winning and Sunday Times best-selling Queenie. She's also written some young adult novellas, Empress and Anaya, and the Sunday Times best-selling people person. Welcome to the podcast, Candice Carty Williams. Hello. Literary superstar. Yeah. So they say. So they say. So we say.

So we're saying. We're adding it. It's official now. I stamped it. I don't believe that. I don't believe that. I just feel that I write books. Right.

I feel like it's just my job. But people buy your books, which isn't always... There are people who write brilliant books. And it's hard to get people to buy books. Purchase not guaranteed. Yeah. Yeah, true. To be into it.

Queenie is beloved. So so many readers must have been so excited finding out there's the second one. Is that a lot of pressure on you? Weirdly. Probably should be, but I don't ever feel pressure in that way. Yeah. I think I'm just like, again, it's why. It's a really boring way of looking at it, but I think the way I've survived it is to be like,

this is your job and this is all you have to do is just do your job and turn up and do it and then go home and then have your life. Because I feel like from the beginning, there were so many questions around whether or not I was Queenie or it was my life. And I don't think I would have coped if I'd allowed the sort of fusion to happen of her and me. Yeah. And so actually I'm really good at just being like, you know, that's the job. And then we just go home and we leave it. I think that's so healthy.

That's amazing. Yeah, that's incredible. A lot of therapy. Oh, good, okay. Years off. So at the beginning, did you find it harder to treat it? It was like, you weren't so clear cut of like, this is the job I write and I go. You felt more involved in it.

I felt really involved in it. But also, the reason I started doing therapy when I got to my, I think I was 30, and I found out that Queenie had won Book of the Year at the British Book Awards. And I was like, so many people, and this was lockdown as well. So I'd already been sort of like just in my head, living by myself. for maybe like a year at this point. And I was like, so many people are going to start saying how amazing you are and how incredible this achievement is and how this is what you should be doing.

And I remember thinking, I'm not in a place where I can receive any of that. And it would have made me feel so dark and so bad. And I was like, actually don't think I'll want to be here if I do not, like, feel how that's making me feel or how that's meant to make me feel. And I was like, I have to go to therapy because I don't think I'm actually going to survive this, like, as a human. and I had my first therapy session the day that it was announced because I was just like, yeah, this is all too.

Just it didn't, I don't know if pressure is the right word. I don't think it was external pressure. I think what the outside world was making me feel just didn't chime with how I felt. It's cognitive dissonance. You've been told one message your entire life. I wasn't trying to put words into your mouth. No, no, but that's what it is. It makes you feel insane.

And I think lots of people wouldn't understand that success can make you feel insane. someone enjoying your work right from the beginning of me being a take that fan you've got these boys that you love so much and they're saying you know we're unhappy yeah and it's amazing how much we go back to take that on this show just so you know I can join you there that's my route of human understanding yeah yeah they've got everything in the world but that can be quite dangerous for you and I think therapy that's how mature and amazing that you were able to go this is how I take care of myself and taking care of yourself and that's something Queenie has to deal with so much is that

actually a huge act of self-love that most people, lots of people aren't brought up knowing how to do. Of course. And also, I know that therapy is a massive privilege. Yeah. And it's actually kind of like where most of my money goes. And it has done for the last six, seven years. But yeah, I feel like, I feel very lucky to be able to do it. But also I sort of dread to think who I would be without it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That is just a story. I made us, I took us a really dark. No, no. This is exactly where we want to be. This is like, we're like, oh, thank you. Going straight into. So going back to...

So before the first queen you've got, sorry. No, I just want to quickly add. Okay. Because you always say, which I think Sarah has always said, it doesn't matter how successful or famous you are, you're still there. Yeah. And I think that's something that you used to say to me a lot. And I think it's a very, like, poignant thing that we forget of, like,

whatever you start with, these other things come along. Whatever pain is still there doesn't disappear. And success can be a crisis point. Yeah. Like a bereavement might be. Yeah. But it might be that no one around, everyone else around you thinks you're just having your best day. Well, this is it. It's even weirder because everyone's like, but this is when

you've got everything you want, you should be so happy. And that feeling of like, oh, I have these things that should be, should equal instant happiness and them not equaling that is a really, yeah, difficult to sit with. So I was going to ask about writing the first Queenie book. I don't imagine anyone sits down going, I'm going to win the fucking awards. So you had an idea for a character. You sort of started to think of like, there's a woman that I love or this is why I'd be fun spend time with her. Yes. And actually that is it.

I was like, what do I want to say? Because I think you think, what do you want to say? And I've said it a million times, but when I started working book publishing, I remember thinking I could do something here. It feels like there's a space where I should and could do something. So I started a prize for underrepresented writers, which is still going, which is a really nice thing. But I was also like, things aren't happening fast enough.

So maybe I should just write something. And it really was just out of necessity for filling a space in the market. That I was like, I'm going to write this thing. So I approached it as like a, as again, like a work thing. And so I was like, yeah, what will I enjoy? What do I want to read and what do I want to see? And what will I enjoy writing? Because you're about to go on a really lonely journey.

Yeah. And you might want to do some things and write some things that are actually kind of fun and interesting and a bit mad and a bit problematic. But actually, that's more interesting than creating like a perfect character who does perfect things in a world that's imperfect, you know? And so really that's what it was. I was just like, when will I, when will I get to? like have fun again like this.

Yeah. And so that as a as a starting point, lots of authors, it does feel like there's this truism of like, I wanted to read a book, it didn't exist. So you're forced into writing it. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think there's something, and this,

you might not agree with this, but there's something about this whole idea of like, oh, it's just work, that perhaps different backgrounds, lots of people don't feel like, they can just like go, I'm creative. I'm going to follow the muse.

That work actually makes it a lot more achievable, retainable. I think so. And I think it's really interesting because actually I don't come from this world. My mom was a receptionist. My dad worked for London Underground. My granddad on my mom's, I worked for London Underground. My other granddad, he lived in Jamaica. I have not been around creative people.

My auntie was a sort of had a stint of being an 80s pop star. But that was like gone. before I was born. Yeah, yeah. So I didn't really kind of understand. I saw like, I had, I have a few of her records. I'm like, okay, that's really cool. But it wasn't part of my world.

So I was like, I don't really know how to exist in this. And actually, yeah, this idea of like being creative and maybe not working nine to five. My family also don't really get that. So that I'm kind of on call all day, every day at any time. They're just like, hi. So what's going on? And I'd be like, no, I'm working. I'm in a meeting or like, I'm in a minute.

But it's just, it's not really a thing. So because I don't really come from it, I've had to adjust to kind of understanding what's like and everyone else has had to sort of try and fall in line. They haven't. I just like, it's such a different view. Yeah. My mum just thinks I don't have a job.

Yeah. Because your time looks like it's yours rather than that. I just think you're at home. And the amount of time she just turns up and I'm like, I'm working. Are you? What are you doing? I'm like, I know it doesn't look like. And then you feel embarrassed because you can't be like,

well, I'm doing this. You're like, well, I'm just over here typing. But no, you're right. I'm not really doing it. Sure. What do you need? Yeah, we'll do it. Let's go to Stainsbury. Yeah.

Yeah. So you've had family who work in TFL. Is that how you know, half fit all the men are? Yeah. No, like that's just, that's just perception. You know what I can I say?

I loved, I love this book anyway. I loved Queenie. I love this book. And as someone who grew up in London, it really made me laugh so much because I was like, I've never heard anyone admit how fit some of the TFL staff are.

And I was like, yes. No one's ever said that out loud to me. Like, my God, some of the people at TFL. I actually hadn't made the attention to my dad and my granddad and this sexual character. As you said it, I was like, oh, okay. Thank you. Now I feel weird. That's another thing for the very expensive therapy.

Mark that down next Monday. But I loved it. I love that detail. I just, I've recognised that for a while, actually. Yeah. Really, really good looking moment for TFL. And I was like that. And it's odd.

Good guy that Queenie would like bump into it and then sort of end up in a thing. with because she just ends up in things and doesn't really quite realize how she got there. Yeah, I love they all call him TFL man. It's just like, of course, what else could he be? TFL man. So when we come back to Queenie at the beginning of the book, it seems like things are going pretty well for her.

As in she, I mean, Queenie's working on it is the title. She's trying really hard. And in that way that I think lots of people do, you know, we're not teenagers, not early 20s anymore, life is serious. She's not drinking. When we meet her, she hasn't drunk for a long time. She's realized that's a thing that wasn't serving her. She's gone through a lot of stuff, obviously, in the first book, which was so brilliant.

And we, you know, left her with that feeling of like, yeah, like, there was a resolvement. That's not a word. Resolution. She's not working at the horrible deliried. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, she's sort of out of that toxic place. She's in a relationship that seems like it maybe isn't defined yet, but it's a sexy guy who really likes her, makes her feel sexy.

TFL guy. So it's great because you start and you go, oh, where's this going to go? Queenie's sort of got her life together. Yeah. Yeah. So you think. And actually, it's not a spoiler because I do talk about it and it's kind of, you know, it's part of the wording of the thing.

She goes to a fertility clinic for research. Yeah. And they're like, oh yeah, this thing that you probably just assumed you would do in five years. You probably won't actually. And she's like, oh. Well, I guess that's the difficulty of a journalist. If you're the kind of journalist, you use it yourself to, you know, you go immersive to places. you might be in a situation with a doctor who says something which rocks your entire world.

So Queenie is investigating. And I'm sure you've done all of the research into this. So black women having sort of results that are less good than white women when they're going through fertility. And then sort of being mistreated by doctors. I mean, it's common knowledge now that black women's pain is underestimated. Tidal death rates are higher, not giving sort of pain medication when they're in labour, they're not believed when they're saying this is going on or this doesn't feel right, this kind of thing. So was this something you were researching for your own life?

You were interested in it? Or were you thinking about Queenie as a journalist? So I'd gone to women's health clinic, should we call it? Because when I was working in TV, my body was in such trauma that my periods just stopped. So I went to find out, like, is there something like very wrong with me? So I had like a full MOT and they were like, she's stressed, actually. And I was like, oh, okay, cool. Oh, that's how stressed I am.

And the body amazing that it goes, now would be a terrible time for you to also have to look after someone else. You just can't do it. The environment is dangerous. You're in too much danger. You can't do this. My body just shut down, which is kind of just mad, mad. And so I was doing all this research kind of by accident anyway, just because I was like, okay, so what else is going on? And then I recognise just how doctors would talk to me, even assumptions about money, lots of people being like, you know this is self-pay.

you know this is self-pay and me being like yeah no I know it's self-pay because it says it's self-pay and I signed it and I said I knew it was self-pay and they were like just to double-check

you know that self-pay means you have to pay and I was like no I know I do understand is that the terminology to us so that was it was just those things and I was like

there's something in this and I always knew I would bring Queenie back at some point and I thought it should be when I can also help a lot of other women

with things I also do not understand. Because there were so many things that I learned about fertility, about the female body, about conception, that I just had no idea because no one talks about it at all. Or until there were problems. Or because I did IVF at 40 and paid for it. I'm very privileged, I should say.

But there are things that you don't find out until there are issues. Of course. Because you just assume, you know, you're told to use a condom that you're at school. We definitely... If you don't, you're going to have a baby. Yeah. Any time of the month.

Just like any time. And then you realise actually, oh my God, there's like a really small window actually where that... You just learn mad things. And you're like, oh, that's why I feel like this at certain times of the month. And I was like, how do I put all of this information? And also information about black women doing IVF and black women going through the process of having children. I learned with that stuff. And then I sort of remixed it to put it in.

So it was in this book in a conversational way rather than a factual didactic non-fiction way. Yeah, exactly. And it's so hard. like, Queenie is such a great character and I just think you write characters that we care about so much

and like Queenie having that revelation about her fertility and it's such a, it's so skillful in this book that it seems like such a small thing that just spins Queenie off. Like this is the information. She's not told she can never do it.

Yeah. What she's told is your chances are so low. Your chances are slim which always puts pressure on women to mean to you have to start now. It's just not given a lot of information mind you.

Yeah. It's just like you should probably just lose weight and then come back and see once and we'll figure it out and she's like, but what she's told is that it's prohibitively expensive, which it is for most people. And the idea that the NHS won't help you if you're above a certain BMI, which is amazing. The BMI thing is so crazy. No, it's real. It's not real. But it's still the metric that people are judging as this. It's a start.

It's not based on like, it's something like Scottish white men from 1870. It's like that's a group of people. During mass back in the day. The group of people they measured were like Scottish white men. And then they were like, oh, okay, that's now the route for everybody. And it's like makes no sense for anyone else's body. Also, calories are meaningless. Do you ever listen to a maintenance phase?

Maintenance phase has a whole episode on BMI and how it's bullshit. Well, it's a debunking episode, a lot of stuff around dietary fads. But it's really great. The one on the calories are really great because the calories just, you know, it's just a unit of energy of how quickly something would actually like be combusted in fire. So the extrapolation to like food and health and nourishment and how my body makes energy, there are these things that we do need to evolve out of thinking

that they are the be all and end. Yeah, and you, I mean, again, someone who's been in the NHS with having kids, it's mentioned all the time. And I had so many doctors where I had to say, well, I don't know why you're asking that. Because it's like, we know it's not tuned. They were like, but I need to write it down.

Yeah, that's it. But if you know it isn't true, why is it being brought up in a consultation? It's such a strange. Yeah. And obviously, Queenie, that's the information she's given,

basically, is lose weight and good luck. Which means there's put such pressure on her as, of course it would, in terms of, you know,

where is the person I'm going to have this family with? Am I going to have to do this with TFL man? How it connects to, her journey with her mother, I think,

is really beautiful because I think, I think Queenie was let down. Yes. But we really, really can see that her mom really cares about her and is also sorry for the letdown as in she wanted to be loved too she was a young woman too trying to find her way like I really think you as Carriette says it's so deft and it feels very real because we don't judge her for anything

while also knowing you queenie had this really shit time like you're her only caregiver yeah and I think you write the characters so nuanced as well because it would easy for that to just be like oh the mum's awful but like to see the pain and then also how like someone's trying to make it up but someone won't forgive them they're not ready it's just that family dynamic is very painful but very and you can't take back a childhood you can't just go okay now we're adults forget about it start again and how much it's affected queenie like that's it's affected her so much and this is the thing I think the first novel was people people just read that as like someone's having those of sex yeah and I'm thinking oh my god

That's like the most, that's like the furthest thing away from what this is. This is like the least interesting thing about Queenie and about the journey that she's on. Because for me, it was just a book about her and her mom. And I was like, the reason I wanted to bring her back is because I wanted to continue that and see what it looks like when you're in your 30s, when you are now approaching the point when your parent was a parent and seeing what that feels like and actually what forgiveness feels like when actually you've calmed down a bit, you've slowed down a bit, you're a bit cleverer. You've got a bit more time to think about things and listen to people and talk to people and understand them.

because it also comes as we get older. And so it was really vital for me to come back to her here and her mom here. And actually it's less of a mum book. Yeah. I guess because actually now it's Queenie's journey, I guess, towards wanting to be a mum or thinking about wanting to be a mum what that means. But it's a book about like her and her mum, the first one. And this is like a kind of extension of that.

It's because I think that's the choice that all people have. Like, do you remain a child? Do you remain always the son or daughter of your parents dealing with that? or does something happen in your 30s where you become potentially either someone else's parent or just not an adult. Yeah, yeah. That is what adulthood is, isn't it? It's going, okay, graduating from that child into that's still the history,

but I don't have to keep staying in the child's state of it. And I think that's where Queenie's really mature. I think she's really good at utilising her friends. She's got this incredible friendship group and she's got her cousin. I can't, like, I just love that, like, her just setting up a WhatsApp for whenever she feels like, like, girls, I need to talk to you. The corgis, the corgis. It's my time.

Yeah. Should we all, yeah, let's get involved. But I think that's really emotionally healthy. Yeah, same. But I was like, God, I can't imagine the... No, we're the kind of people that you'd find out three weeks later. Yeah, I was going to throw myself up. Yeah, yeah.

I was like, God. I turned my phone off. Yeah, yeah, I do it. Luckily. But I'm not someone who I would never do that. I do, though, have... I feel so lucky. I have incredible friends who...

They just listen and they just get that I'm just... They know that I'm so emotional. And I could, like, get emotional about, like, a glass of water. It made me think about a time when I was really young. And I was really thirsty. No one cares. And they'd be like, oh, no, I get it. No, I really feel you.

And so I feel really lucky, but I would never do. But Queenie, I think she's selfish, but I know she's selfish. And I've written her as selfish. I understand she's selfish. But in a way that she needs to be because this is all about her. This is like, you know, the Queenie show or the Queenie book. But she is the person who is like, yeah, when I need you, I'm going to cross boundaries.

But there's a joy to her selfishness? Yeah, I liked it because, no, I would never do that. And again, lots of people don't know what's wrong with me when I'm upset. But, like, I sort of, the way she expresses that sadness and need for communication, I don't know, that's why you kind of love her. Because you're like, yeah, she's very honest about it. But what's difficult is, if you've got a friend who does hurt themselves. Yeah. Oh, my God.

That's the difficulty is. So when she, she's at the wedding and there's Italian. guy, you know, and she's sort of like, he's forced alcohol on her. Yeah. Not in a criminal way. It's a, it's a minor red flag. But someone, someone says they don't drink and it's like, oh, you know, the champagne's open here, have some. And how difficult it is for her friends, for people who love her at that point, if you know all the details. Yeah. And that's the thing is that he doesn't know the details. He's just like, oh, whatever, like it's whatever. But she's like, oh, God, oh, no, this is like a real sort of like crossroads to me. Like, do I, like, drink again?

And actually that tends me to a bad place. And obviously, like, chess goes at the wedding and it's like, I know what this does. Yeah. And like, I can. You know, I just, when I was writing, I imagine that Cheska was having conversations, but it was constantly having sort of like one eye on like, Queenie and just being like, what she up to there? Who is she talking to it? And then she disappears. And it's like, oh, my God, here we go again. And obviously, when I'm writing, I go through all of these feelings as all of these different characters, which is also another reason why when people are like, oh, are you Queenie, you must be her. It's like, but I've written like 35 people. And I feel every single one of these

characters and what they're doing and what they're thinking and what they're going. through. But yeah, no. That's interesting. So it's, you're an actor really, because your dialogue is brilliant, so this would make sense. So you are playing all of the characters. And the reason I can't think of one that isn't well-rounded, including the shitty

men. Yeah, yeah. You couldn't tell me if you did, but no. No, but it's true because like even TFL man, like, there were times when you were like, oh, do you see what he's saying, like, because you're almost on you're almost on his side for a second. And then you're like, oh, damn it.

Candice has made me feel for this. Also, he is an idiot, but in his defense, and I would say this, Queenie isn't emotionally available. She's in love with somebody else. In his defense, they do have a sort of flexible relationship. He meets someone else who obviously is a bit more into him, he's into them. These are all very forgivable sins. Yeah.

No, and again, you just, and I don't know if it's not a London thing, but growing up in London, I feel like you really capture, like, there's a London feel to the book of, like, how they speak to each other and where they're going and what's happening. It just felt so that nice feeling you get with it, but when you feel like you're eavesdropping slightly. Like when Queenie turns, again, don't want to do spoilers, but when Queenie turns up at a restaurant,

kind of not supposed to be there. And I was like, oh, I feel like I'm at the table being like, time out, look what's happening, that was happening with it. Candice, I must talk to you because I'm a big skincare fan. Okay. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Oh, oh, my God, yes.

I gasped. Oh, I gasped at something that happens to some berry, and I. It's a lube. It's a lube situation. I love that brand. And I felt... It's really expensive.

I felt very expensive. So it's not very expensive. So $7.000. $0.70 a little pot of that would cost. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Moistrizo is fucking amazing. It's from Japan? Is it from Japan?

Yeah, it's Japanese. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can join in skincare. I'm a skincare gold, too. And I'm obsessed. And I was like, when we got this, I won't spoil what happened, but something happens with some toucher.

Is it the Dewey Moistrizerzer? Yeah, yeah. Do his skin. Yeah. And I actually gasped and put the book. I went, because I was like I cannot believe that

like oh yeah and that again just made me laugh but you can believe that a man a man wouldn't know and he just thinks it's lubricating yeah it's a resource he's acting like it's E-45 yeah yeah yeah yeah

but even that I mean don't just put your hands of people's pots no no in their room exactly but that made me laugh out loud and I think any was that a light bulb moment for you

when you're writing a scene is sometimes your brain surprise you I think sometimes I basically, I'm always like, how far can I take it, but keeping it in the world of like what would happen to her? I don't want anything like. And I think also just there was a lot of traumatising sex. And the first one, and I was like, I've done that now.

And I don't think she would be there in and more in her 30s. So I was like, we're going to do things that are just kind of mad. Yeah. We can just be mad now and we can do things that she would still tell her friends about, but I don't know whether everyone is like, are you all right? Like, you need to, in a way that her friends would be like, come on. This is silly.

But yeah, I feel like I just wanted it. Again, it's just like fun. I was just having fun. And just like, my favorite things are the moments of people are like, this can't be a real thing. It's like, well, sorry, it is.

Yeah, it is. Yeah, no, you're right. And again, you just write relationships really well. And again, I really felt that with the sex in this one that, like, there was a part of you that was like, oh, maybe she shouldn't, but also maybe you'll be, like, the men, again, were a bit older. It wasn't that kind of mad 20 sex.

And also, Queenie is making better decisions. Yeah, she doesn't mean perfect. She's making pretty good choices most of the time. But even, but even, if you're making really good decisions, if you're attracted to someone and they're gorgeous and it's the first time you sleep together, still something can happen that you could not have predicted that isn't your fault. You're not supposed to not, this is, we're not going straight to like, now you have to wait until you're married to someone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is the bit we find that

if you're compatible and sometimes you're not. And so that's what I feel like, this is, this, this, this era of Queenie. Yeah, it's great. She's open, she's open to connecting with people. And also she does, she does want to have fun. This is all based on actual, I guess, kind of being like, okay, what is fun, what is fun like? Because she's cast off all of the stuff from her 20s. And this is like, no, this is, as you say, it's like a hot man, I'm going to do it. And I'm just going to see. Unfortunately.

And unfortunately, so you wrote Queenie, obviously, it was hugely successful. And then you kind of moved into television writing. How was it felt to like, how was that seeing what happened to Queenie in that stage? And then how has it been coming back to writing just a novel, just a novel? You know what I mean? Like a much more solid. Also, but the author is much more in control. I know that there are still editors and booksellers, but it's a much more...

Because you did, Queenie was adapting then there's Champion, is that right? So, weirdly, Champion came first. Oh, but they were really start with it, isn't it? No, Queenie came after Champion, and I was doing it, because I was doing it at the same time. Oh, wow. It was one of the reason my period stopped. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I really didn't, I really struggled with the adaptation of Queenie.

I struggled with it. massively and it made me think I didn't want to go back to TV for a really long time. And actually to this day, it's the reason on my phone is always on, do not disturb, like, constantly because I was just, it was, it was 24, 7, and I really didn't have anything left to give. It felt like the most bizarre process. And we filmed an eight episode TV show in 48 days. Wow.

And it was awful. And it was a really terrible process for everyone involved. You know, that's the way that things work, apparently. That's where budgets work. It's really, you know? We have a lot of horror stories. It doesn't have to be like that. I don't think horror horror stories.

I think it can be hard work, but that sounds quite extreme. It was. It felt like a really extreme time. And actually a lot of it I barely remember because my brain was just, and I have a really good memory. But my brain was just like, we can't even. I was just out of it. And those of my friends were just like,

we didn't know who you were in that time. And that felt hard as someone who was really, really, close to their friends and really in touch with their friends. People were just like, we couldn't even have a conversation with you because there was no one there. But that's again, so like with the fertility of the body shutting down with stress, that's what stress does. It makes you less there. It makes it less of an imprint because you're surviving something.

Yeah. Yeah. And it really was that. I mean, there were some amazing moments. I loved working. The cast were incredible. The cast were all really locked into who their characters. And also who Queenie was.

And I was very lucky to kind of come to something that had source material that so many people already were engaged with. But everything else was just, it was just really difficult in a way that I didn't think it had to be. But I do think that this industry is different for different kinds of people. Yeah, it is. For women, it's kind of how so...

Yeah. And collaborating. I mean, what you'd want in an ideal world is an organic thing where you meet people in an early point in your career and you grow together. And the one thing you know, and I'm not presuming anything about the people you work with, by the way. I'm sort of talking quite vague.

But what you hope is everyone in the room believes in you so much that you are supported to say what you need to say. But quite often people in lots of jobs are sort of panicking about themselves. They might not really understand something. And so they might pull in different directions or disagree. And then actually suddenly everyone's insecure or has cracks. So no one feels supported. Of course. I think one of the hardest things, I think one of my hardest moments working on that show,

there was a locations manager who I love, she's one of my friends now to this day. And we hadn't really spoken yet. We just met really briefly. And we were on set, and I was always rewriting things, just because things always changed. And she was sort of hovering around me, but then running away. And I was like, why don't she keep being sort of near? And then eventually I said to her, like, are you all right?

And she said, I'm really sorry we've really fucked up with lost a location. And I was like, oh, that's fine. Just tell me which one it is. And I'll just, like, sort it out. And she was like, oh, I was really scared because I said, you were going to shout at me. And I was like, who's? Why was I going to?

She told me who and I was like, oh, okay. But the idea that I was shout at anyone or be angry with anyone, I was just like, this is like, this is so horrible. It just felt like so, and I was like, this isn't, it wasn't, that's not the person I am. And I found that I found that so difficult and I don't think I'll ever forget, like, how bad that made me feel. Just because I'm just, like, my thing is that I'm, I'm relatively firm. Yeah. But I'm also just really kind, that just as a human.

See, I think that can be experienced for lots of women is that any kind of, boundaries or pushing back, oh, I'm going to argue this, is rebranded very quickly as difficult, scary, oh, don't get on the wrong side of them. And that's really, that can make people really doubt themselves. Yeah. How they construed that from that. I was, yeah, Queenie has a moment like that when she's, I mean, not even that she's civil. It feels like she sort of thinks on her feet in a meeting. Oh, yeah. With the sort of, she's been in, no spoilers here, but she's got a job. Yeah. So she's just, she's in an office situation. And she gets accused very much of You know, less of a budget for something.

We're going to have to do it. She's thinking on her feet, let's do it like this, then. Maybe this is a suggestion. And then she gets an email complaining about her behavior, saying that she's sort of aggressive. Yeah. And it makes she feel mad. And also, yeah, she was brought in.

Also, just like context, she's been brought into a situation show. It's not like she's not her work. She's brought in because she has this expertise. And then it's flipped on her. And I remember, I mean, that's happened to me. Countess, I've seen so many emails about me that. So you just have to be like, okay, what's new? You know, add it to the files.

But it feels mad. And I think one of the things that I find quite difficult, just in general, is like having an identity that you've worked really hard to create, just like in this country as a black woman who is a writer and who has worked really, really hard to just be visible when actually technically I should kind of be invisible in lots of ways, in lots of different rooms. And sort of like working really hard to know who you are.

And then someone comes and just tells you that you're angry or you're aggressive or you're rude or you're mean or you don't care about things. It just gets you in a really, it just makes you like, it just makes you crazy. Of course it does. Do you think there's an expectation that, so that in your words you said, oh, like you're supposed to be invisible? Yes. Then you're supposed to be incredibly grateful not to be. So it's like you're just lucky. I just get so lucky.

And I'm like, no, I'm not. I've worked really hard. And I've been writing now at this point for 10 years. No luck to it. it's not luck i've worked really i've worked pretty much i've written pretty much every day for 10 years on something yeah i've done something i've been working on something for so long you don't stop because also you're like it could go away at any time yeah yeah it's exactly the same mentality as um you talk about the do you understand it's self-pay at the clinic it's exactly

the same thing isn't it's going you you you don't belong here is the explicit message you do that really well. You know, I don't think you don't belong here. I was like, oh wow. It's a verbatim. Yeah. Treating someone like the type of, two dope queens,

the podcast, and they don't do it anymore, but Phoebe once had a story, they always flew first class. Yeah. And always she would get stopped going this way's first class, and she was, you know, I know, no, no, you have to go down.

The expectation was never that she could be a rich black woman. I know, and I just want to talk about the white women characters that you wrote, which I found definitely, I was like, oh, my God. This is the Hendo. The Hendo is the longest chapter because it was my favorite chapter. I loved it. The favorite world to be in. Queenie is so isolated and she's like,

I'm doing this for one of my best friends who actually don't really see that much anymore. But she's still someone who means and meant a lot to me. And it's so meaningful because she's in this situation and lots of people have been in like the Hendo situation where they like go away for the weekend. You do see the worst of people. And like the emails or what they call it like? like, hey ladies, the hey ladies email. And like, which I think also, now I'm over 40, you don't have to do that anymore. But in your 30s, it's like, fucking so many weekends.

I'm having to do these expensive weddings. And she's with all these white women. And the way they speak to her, like the stately home is just. And I think they're nasty to her. It's not. One is very nasty. And then, yeah, some are just thoughtless and intensive. But I think even asking people about their relationship status, like asking people like what they earn.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. There are questions that are really, you can wait for someone to bring it up with you or till your friends with someone. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't think you just can ask that information of people you don't know. But the thing is, the fact that you're reacting like that is the strength of the writing. Because if you feel like you're in the room and you're like, what the fuck, why are you? And I just, I just love those scenes because they were like, they were so like, ugh.

You learn so much about Queenie that Queenie is willing to do this for her friend and like what that friendship means. And you're like, fucking hell, that's a good friend. Queenie is a good friend for sitting with these awful women. She's resourceful, right? So she's like, I'm going to use this as an opportunity to do some learning because these women seem to know so much out of Susie because they all have 300 kids. So she's like, okay, I'm going to do this here.

So I think for her, she's like, again, in that sort of way of selfishness, she's like, I'm going to make it work for me. But also there is a lot to, there's a lot to endure. But it was fun. It was fun. Yeah, they were fun to read. Also, I think it can be connected to low self-esteem. Queenie's growing, but there are points where I also think it's really hard to take yourself

out of those situations. I think that's what the 40s are for for then going. I'm not coming. Judge the vibe and I left. Yeah, I had to leave. Yeah, I know. You know, last time I stayed and I shouldn't have done. Or I didn't get that much out of them that it made it worthwhile.

I was in a, I was in my second child, I ended up in this WhatsApp group of extremely wealthy mums. Because I got gifted a, like this woman was running a course and I did this podcast about grief and she really liked it. It was like, it was like, it was like, it was like, it was like, I don't know,

it was like, it was like, it was like, she was like, oh, just come to the house and then when I, you know, you just do your Google,

I get there and I'm like, in Kensington. I'm like, oh, of course. And then it's not just a hall, it's her house. And there's all these women and like,

and I was on this what's how great, they were all very nice, but they were just, again, I, I realized these women know everything. Like,

I couldn't believe how much. So, any problem you had, they knew the physio. They knew the, like, anything, I'd be like, hey, does anyone know? They were amazing, but, like, it was just as COVID was hitting, and they were all absolutely panicking that the private hospitals

would take away, were shutting the nursery, which is the thing that as soon as in a private hospital, they would take it away straight away. And there was this absolute rumor like, is this true? Is this true? Or we can have to come to the baby straight away? And I was like, oh, I'm afraid. But there was just a kind of literacy that money gives you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You just learn that you're just like the money, the more you just can know about things and, like, specialisms. Yeah, it was amazing to me. Like, most people and just, we just go to the doctor. Yeah, yeah. You don't go to, like, special, what else you do?

And then you might get, like, sent to hospital to go to see someone about your foot, but you don't know how to go straight to the... You're a psychiatrist. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So... Yeah, I definitely felt like I was in a room that I definitely knew about. Yeah. And then someone was like, there's another corner.

And I was like, I did not know. I didn't know. That was over there in a corner. And it was very, I actually very much enjoyed being part of this work, because any problem, Because it's like a safari. No, honestly, it was like great Wikipedia. It was like amazing. It was like, God, anything you could think of.

They had the person, they had the best things, the best products to recommend. Because they had more money. So it was just, yeah, more research, more information. But the people in the book at the Hindu, they're also not very nice people. It's not just they've got money and there's a cultural difference. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't think that's particularly. they're very nice. If I was being kind, I'd say they're unhappy people. And there's something

about, you know, being a parent is hard. And there are all kind of things that can happen after someone's got young children. And I think some people might respond by faking a happiness they don't feel. And that can make you a little bit, you know, you're either in the gang or not. Because I think also they can be jealous of people who are single, who have their own time, who have their own life, who have hope. Well, there are these sort of like questions. Like, oh, who are you seeing that? Because they're interested. They're like, oh, let's see him. Because actually, It's like, this is you are going to be the interesting one because we all kind of know what we've got going on.

This is, we've reached the end. Yeah, yeah. She queen is like, she's happy to sort of like offer that, but she's also just like, I think actually what I will say, but I know that she was not, as writing her, she was really happy not to be part of that. And she actually wasn't like, oh, I want this life. And I was, I wanted to show that it's like,

you can be writing as opposed you have kids. And actually that was her sort of, first sort of subconscious effort being like, is this what I really want? Is this actually the life? Because it doesn't seem like this. people are incredibly happy with the choices that they've made it. I don't like ask this question when it hasn't come out,

but like, do you have any thoughts for Queenie 3? Or do you feel, oh, for sure, because I do want to, but I think she's kind of got to be in her 40s and I want to live a bit more

and just like fill things and see things and do things. But I really wanted in this not to, this idea of like a happy ending. I've just never believed in it. And so I think when we close the page, it's like we're at a point where she's okay, but it doesn't necessarily mean that she's like, okay,

And she's like, because none of us are. I think that we are still till the end of our day is going to be working things out. So yeah, I always have ideas for her. But I always know kind of like what she's up to and what her people are up to because they're kind of just swim around in my head quite a lot. Because I love them. I've known them for so long now. You know, it's like a decade of these like people that sort of just like do little things in my head. I think you did such a good job with, you know, like when you love a book and then when someone does write a sequel, you can always be like, oh.

Like, do they still love them in that way? Like, will they be careful with these characters? And I think this is such an honourable sequel. Like, it really, you really feel like, yeah, that is where they all are. That's exactly where I thought they were all going to be, like, her cousin and the auntie and stuff. It's like, oh, yeah, the connection to the first book is really strong. Because it has been a big gap, like you said, 10 years. It's a big gap.

It's a year. So, yeah, I think I wrote 2017 is when I first started writing it. Wow. Yeah, it's a long time. Last year was when I finished it. So can we talk about men? Men, because I think the granddad and is Frank, isn't it? Oh, Goddad.

I would put very much in good men category. Good eggs. And it's interesting because like with there being no such thing as a happy ending, a good man does not mean a perfect ban. But I think it does mean curiosity, listening. Kindness, on their own journey. And I think Frank is really attractive because, he's not a dormant.

No. And he's not an idiot. And he has been pushed away by someone who, you know, Queenie was too vulnerable. So when we meet them again, it just feels almost like a Greek tragedy. Like she's made this way, he's made this way. Of course they couldn't make it work. But we really want them to. I know.

It's not nice to think about. You know what? So Frank is mentioned, but not by name, in the first book. Yes. So he's Cheske's cousin. And he says, do you remember when your cousin asked to dance with me? but he was really nice and I just said I had period pains because it stressed me out too much

because it gave for a stomach cake that someone was just being kind to her because obviously she's come from this childhood of like being a nuisance and everyone being very nice and so he is there so he's been there and then obviously he was made a bigger thing of in the TV show because a lot of the things that, a lot of people ask me like where are the good black men in this?

The good men, the good black men in your first novel and I was like, oh, I felt like granddad is like a really amazing person and actually I really want to talk about Queenie's relationship to men that aren't nice to her and I didn't feel like it was appropriate to sort of do that at that point I was like we really just want to. There's a lot to be trying to say at once isn't it? You can't. Yeah. So I'm like we have her granddad who is this person. Her dad doesn't really exist in that way. But these men, again, it's not about them but they don't treat her very well and that's the point that we're trying to make care. But in the TV show I was like, if we want something propulsive and we want actually to

maybe see a bit more starkly what her relationship with men who aren't nice to her could be like, let's put Frank in there. And then when it came to writing this, I was like it didn't feel like I could have, I just felt like I could leave him out. Yeah. Like it felt like where the TV show ends, they have this really amazing moment.

And we're like, okay, cool, that's going to be, but of course it's queenie. So nice. And so I really, I wanted to, I wanted to think about what it could have felt like for her to sit in something where someone liked her and he was nice and he was comfortable. And she just simply wasn't ready.

So as you say, she pushed him away. And then she felt more comfortable with, with that and then she's found herself in a thing with Tf Rman and again he's just kind of like he's just there yeah he's just there but he's not she knows he's not end game like she knows he doesn't but he's also not too kind he's not kind that she's like I don't deserve this yeah she's found herself off in what she believes she deserves in that moment and longs for like something that actually felt like it was real but she know she's still maybe not ready yeah yeah of course she's not ready because the kind of love that sort of we learn through the book

that retrospectively her and Frank had the way that they spoke to each other, their intimacy, it could only lead to pain. And so there's a wisdom to that and a wisdom to someone protecting themselves going, I couldn't take the pain from not having you. I think it was such a nice setup, in such an unusual setup as well, because we're so used to books kind of being like. Lying to us. Well, and also like books being like, yeah.

And they go, he was so amazing and now she's fixed. And like, yeah, it's just you that's broken. Yeah. We do, lady. Yeah. We used to that plot being like the driver of like where we're driving towards them getting together. You know, and I read a lot of Jane Austen.

That's like that's where we're going. And you know it's a library. You're like, yum, yum, yum, yum. Great, thanks. And I enjoyed this so much that it was like more nuance that like he's not going to solve the problems. But equally she's not even going to like you're sort of will. You know, you're like, what are you doing?

Because you're showing us. It's hard to accept. It's hard to be loved. It's hard to know how to love if you haven't had that, you know, very clearly shown to you. And even if you had it clearly shown to you, it's still hard to be vulnerable. Like, I thought you, the way you used that in the plot was really interesting and really not doing what you expected it to do, which made it as satisfying to read. I just wanted it.

I needed to be, because I think I need us all, I guess, as people, women, to be patient with ourselves. Because I do think, you know, this whole, like, right person, wrong time, that kind of thing. I do think it can be real because I think that if you aren't happy and willing to accept or able to accept, sorry, or both love, then it's not going to work out.

You just need to take the time to be able to be there, you know? And I think with Queenie, if she'd rushed it, it just would have been a disaster. Yeah. You know? In terms of being all the characters,

you must have loved Frank. Because you'd have played so many scenes with him, is what I mean. One of my best friends, Haley, she's reading it at the moment, and every day she sends me a voice now. about what she likes to where she's up to. And she said, babe, I just think you've done such amazing thing

with, you know, Queenie receiving love. And I was like, yeah, but that's because, like, you love me. And because, like, you taught me, like, specifically, you want people that taught me, like, what I deserve in life. I've known her for so long now. But I was like, you love me and you look after me. And I think it was that, so I think I fell in love with, I guess, like, what Frank made me feel like,

rather than Frank himself. But actually, I really enjoyed writing Frank for TV. and actually seeing Samuel Adewomeny who played Frank, I love seeing how he would bring that to life and how he would be that really gentle person who was, as you say, not a doormat, but someone who could kind of see that Queenie needed a bit of space and a bit of patience and a bit of understanding.

And I love that in a person. I love someone who's like, she's there, and maybe she really cares about me, but she shows it in her own way, you know? Yeah. And so I just, I love the patience that Frank affords. I think it's really attractive. the attention.

Having someone's attention, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's the thing. Then paying attention to you, concentrating on you, not, not accepting just what you say. Of course. Looking past it and putting things together and that's such a sign of like real interest. We're not a mature love, isn't it, a mature relationship of like, I see you, I see everything and I'm still okay with what I'm seeing rather than like, oh, it's because we have this intense talk or because we kind of spark. It's like, no, no, no. I can zoom out and see everything of you. I wanted to tell you very quickly.

That you went to the University of Sussex. No way. Which really? Did she met? Yeah, I did. Oh, my goodness. I know. How did you find that out?

You kept it to the end. I know, I kept to the end. I was doing my research and I gave a little, oh my God. But I don't know. I think you're young goodness. Yeah, much younger. We met 2004 at the university, 2001. 2001.

I don't know. We graduated 2004 from the University of Sussex. I'm 36. Yeah, you're best. Maybe. So just a little bit younger. Were you, they're not a little bit younger. Were you there?

I'll take it. I'll take a little bit. Were you there when they had the schools? Yes. Oh, what school were you? Humanities. Oh, no. We were in like English and American studies and they had like, they changed all the. I was a school of humanities.

Oh, humanities. What did you do? What degree did you do? So I, funny enough, did media studies. I wanted to do English, but they were like, no, you're not clever enough. And I said, okay, fine. So I had applied to, I wanted to apply to do English university. And my school said you won't get the grades

and there's no point it's just going to be embarrassing. So I applied to you to really good so I pled to do media studies instead and then I got two O's and a B so I would have been able to give Oh my God,

that's incredible results I know, I know I know I hope you thanked them and every fucking literary award you win I know can you imagine to keep me with that so then when I was like please can I do English and drama and they said no

and I said no and I just did media studies but I did loads of English modules I managed to look at school courses isn't it just change things around but I did some of it good, I feel like I did some good learning

that I just like being in Brighton. Yeah, isn't I? Just like party all the time. Just like every night. Just I feel like I was like out. Did you get in the sea? After clubbing? I never ever did that. I never did that. I never went to see after clubbing. Wow. I'm impressed. No, I would never have done my hair. Oh, yeah. Fair, fair.

But also I just felt afraid of that. So I just did that. Also, if you went in the day and you saw the brown scum, you'd think, why did I get in that yesterday? I loved being there. I really loved being there. In summer, it was amazing. And even in winter, it was like, sort of, you uniquely bleak. Yeah. Because it was so cold.

It was like much colder than London. And you feel shit in winter and you go down to that beach and you're alone with your bleak, bleak feelings and the miserable rain. It's like a particularly... And walking on the downs as well. Very Smiths. It felt very like Smith's, like kind of vibes. Yeah, yeah.

But I really, really, yeah. I liked it. I liked it. I wouldn't not recommend it. Yeah. I guess. They're going to put that in the front of the magazine. I wouldn't not recommend it.

So if you contact hours, so I really think actually if you're quite a self- propelled learner you get on much better you don't know if you don't have to be spoon fed you know that was my really big that was my really difficult transition from being really known at sixth form

and everyone being like hi candy is how you can do because I had that sort of classic trajectory of like really really bad behavioural issues kid who then was like really joined the choir

and then was like she's reformed she's really good you're going to make her house captain so everyone knew I was and then going to the university and no one knows who the fuck you're not give a shit

you're just someone I'm the quiet. Tiny. Walking across a massive campus and just being like, whoa, what's happening here? Yeah. And so I found that really difficult just being like,

no one cares if I do my degree. Oh yeah. In Sussex doesn't care. They're like, get on with it. Why are you here? What do you want? Like,

do it or don't. But like if you don't listen. Yeah. Oh, you've already paid for it. We're like, we've got your money whether you go into the next or not.

Exactly. And I had that was such a difficult transition. But I don't know I did it. And I got a two one. Fine. But I made some great friends. My great memories actually was more about the memories and the friends and the parties. For sure.

I sounds like you had more of a party time than we did. We did. We did a drama society. Women's Sards, yeah. I know, but I was in the, I did I do Smarts? I was in two musical theater productions. Oh, so even Smarts. I was in.

I was in Ferrymen of West Side Story. Hi. Yeah, exactly. So I had my little dwego. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. At the big theater? It's not called anymore. It's called the Attenborough Center.

I was it? Okay. changed it. But I did that. I was in, yeah, I was in Fame, and then next year I was in West Side Story.

They actually changed, a change gender of Doc, so I was, Doc, but then also did some singing. Yeah. I wish I'd seen that, Candy.

I know. I had a good time. Yeah, singing used to be like the thing I used to do. It was very, I don't do any more, obviously,

but. Don't you know. Why aren't you doing a singing book tour? Like, people would come and see that. I mean, I've smoked way too much.

No, no. I think that just gives a character the voice. If you were saying, I'm going to, okay, listen, pitching it to you. Whitney.

Whitney. Don't worry about that. I mean, I've got like so many. I mean, Sasha Keeple smokes all the time. I mean, she loves it. And it's a great thing.

40 minutes of book chat. And then 40 minutes of songs that like remind you a queenie, mate, that would sell. Right? Or singing as the audience come in.

No, no, she's going to chat fast. And then they get the book and then they buy the album and the book and you sign them both afterwards. Okay. I'll manage you.

Have it. Yeah, we'll have taken over. I was thinking more. like crooning so this is I'm picturing you so it's Ronnie Scots you're having your book oh I was thinking like I'm doing I'm doing like big ticket okay yeah yeah obviously obviously I'm what they aren't expecting is that you sing as you're already on stage the doors open it's it's a trumpet there's a trumpet I'm on a stool or am I standing on your hand yeah lean you on the piano lean on the piano yeah yeah and then and then you're just singing

do you know what I want is someone to write you a song called Queenie okay that would be And then you could release a club version from Queen. I reckon, some strings could be pulled. Yeah. Try my best. I mean, it's a very well-known character. I think we almost, we almost got,

we are the champions in champion. Oh, wow. Yeah. So that we've started to, I've got through to the camp. Yeah, you've made three. This is a smash cut to Nell, who's both of your aging, be like, I wish I'd never introduce them. Yeah.

It costs like now we're going to a place. It costs us millions of pounds in rights for Queen songs. I think Nell would be happy about it. You should be interested. I think she'd be like saying more, talk me through more. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, yeah. So she's singing as they come in.

Anyway, you could do what some of the characters were choosing a karaoke song. That would be linked. That's really nice. I think about that on that. I think, yeah. I think this is a good book, Tom. Candice, thank you so much. Thank you for me.

Thank you for talking to us. I'm really excited for, you know, all your readers to get their hands on it, and Queenie's Life to live on. Yeah, it's a brilliant book. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening to The Weird. Those Book Club. Queenie is working on it is out now. Carriad and I have a live show at the Edinburgh Book Festival on the 17th of August. We're going to have a fantastic guest and you can join us there.

Yes, and I'll be in Edinburgh with ostentatious, the improvised Jane Austen Novel as well. And you can find out more about our upcoming books if you head to Instagram at Sarah and Carriead's Woodo's Book Club. Message us we love to hear from you. And please join us on Patreon for God's sake. It's a great way to support the podcast and we do try to post a bit more weird and wonderful staff over on there. Yeah, and we're giving away loads of signed books as well, signed by the authors. Yeah, not just us. Not just us.

We're not signing other people's books guys and then sending them out to people. No, literally by then. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading.