Sara & Cariad's Weirdos Book Club - Really Good, Actually by Monica Heisey with Monica Heisey

Episode Date: August 31, 2023

This week's book guest is Really Good, Actually by Monica Heisey.Sara and Cariad are joined by Monica herself to discuss heartbreak, karaoke, Harry Styles and more! Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you!Trigger warning: This episode includes references to disordered eating. Really Good, Actually by Monica Heisey is available to buy here or on Apple Books here.Sara’s debut novel Weirdo is published by Faber & Faber and is available to pre-order here.Cariad’s book You Are Not Alone is published by Bloomsbury and is available to buy here.Ticket's for the live show on Wed 6 Sep at 21Soho are available to buy here.Follow Sara & Cariad’s Weirdos Book Club on Instagram @saraandcariadsweirdosbookclub and Twitter @weirdosbookclubFollow Monica Heisey on Instagram and Twitter @monicaheisey Recorded and edited by Naomi Parnell for Plosive.Artwork by Welcome Studio.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Sarah Pasco. Hello, I'm Carriad Lloyd. And we're weird about books. We love to read. We read too much. We talk too much. About the too much that we've read. Which is why we've created the Weirdos Book Club.

Join us. A space for the lonely outsider to feel accepted and appreciated. A place for the person who'd love to be in a real book club, but doesn't like wine or nibbles. Or being around other people. Is that you? Join us. Check out our Instagram at Sarah and Carriad's Weirdo's Book Club for the upcoming books we're going to be discussing. You can read along and share your opinions.

Or just skulk around in your raincoat like the weirdo you are. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you. This week's book guest is Really Good Actually by Monica Heise. It's a Sunday Times bestselling hilarious debut novel about one woman's search to find her way through divorce, late night googling and dating apps. But why is it in the Weirdo's Book Club?

Well, Really Good Actually follows Maggie, who at 29 finds herself trying to embrace her life as a surprisingly young divorcee while surrounded by friends planning their weddings, buying flats and settling down to be proper adults. This book is for anyone

who does not naturally bond with being a grown-up. In this episode, we talk about heartbreak, karaoke, Harry Styles, How Great Gemini's are. Bridget Jones. And extreme makeovers.

Welcome, Monica Heise. Oh my God, thank you for having me. I'm so excited. We're very excited to have you. Today's book guest is really good actually by Monica Heise. And the book is very kindly brought along its mother. Do you feel like it's your child?

Maybe like an uncomfortable friend that I've been talking about for too long. Oh, nice. Okay. You know, like it's the one thing people know about you. You're like, oh, that's my more popular friend. Oh. So everyone's like, oh, you know, really good actually. Yeah.

And you're like, yep, and I'm here as well. And they're like, no, we only want to talk about really good actually. Oh, they're doing so well. They have been an international bestseller. So how you feel, then you're like, oh, I'm happy for her. Yeah. I'm happy. I'm happy.

Do, are you meeting strangers who feel like they know you a little bit, but too familiar? I've been getting a lot of, I get a lot of DMs. I think something very, that I hadn't anticipated, but maybe you should have about writing about heartbreak, is that it's people who are heartbroken are so open and they just want to share so much. So I'm getting a lot of DMs and also at like signings and stuff. People will be like, a woman came to me in a cafe the other day.

day just like really conspiratorily leaned in and said, I just left my husband. And I was like, God, I hope she's read the book. She's just whispering it to people. Yeah. Just telling people in the cafe. I haven't told my mother yet, but I wanted you to know. When you are heartbroken, it is the lowest your confidence gets. Now, that's an interesting point. And that is something that I, obviously is someone who writes about grief.

And this comes up in the book of like, what can we call grief? Yeah, Cario gets people whispering to her in cafes. I just killed my husband. Well, I get people going, going, my dad just died. And you're like, oh, hi. Cheers to the bottomless branch, everyone. We should not have booked this. They're crying.

But that's really interesting that you say that about heartbreak because I also think grief massively affects your confidence. So I think there's a really interesting crossover in this book, which you do come up against of like, what do we get to classify as grief? like divorce versus like physical death because some people get quite funny about grief divorce being classified as grief but it is a grief it's what julius samuel would call a living loss yes rather than like literally someone dying it's because you know like and i know this isn't

true but when people used to say like innuets have 50 words for snow yeah and we'd go well that sounds like too many but grief is we need more grief words oh do with a couple more maybe add to the language of it Because otherwise we're using, I remember you once telling me that people, because I was infertile for really long time, like, oh, people who haven't been able to have children, it's a form of grief. And I thought, you're just using someone else's word. Like it's just going, we don't have anything better. It covers so much. And so, sorry, it's like I jumped on your point because you were saying it's the lowest your confidence can get. But that also is when you're, if you have someone you love close to you has died, often people say you have no confidence.

Because you feel like you can't trust the world. So that's when it comes to like death. You're like, how can I go out and be, hey, this is who I am when, like, someone around me could just disappear. And it's the same thing I think it's a heartbreak is like, how can I be me when the thing I trusted is gone? I think maybe what I meant is that nothing is going to make this situation worse. So when you have some confidence, you think, oh, would I engage with a stranger? What if they don't want to speak to me? I would lose something.

But when you have nothing left to lose. Yeah. But Maggie gets into a state like that called, ha-ha, so what? where it's and I definitely felt this way at the height of my kind of post-divorce feeling of like, well, what's going to happen? What's going to happen that's more terrible than this? You know, I think with like a proper actual loss loss where it's not a living loss, it's a regular loss.

You lose confidence in the world around you because you're like, oh, the worst thing possible could happen and it could happen at any time. With this particular thing, you sort of feel like you've done it to yourself. so you almost enter this weird slightly manic kind of like bulletproof state where you're like I could do anything because I'm a piece of crap nothing worse is going to happen

but that's so interesting sorry and I really didn't mean to get to grief this early I literally in my head was like don't mention the grief things about halfway through try and hold back because it's described as the fire after death

so you feel untouchable because it's like what could happen what could you possibly say that's worse than this person dying so you become come, like you said, almost like, it's very similar,

but I'm not saying it's the same at all because I agree, they're different, but there's a similar vibe going on of like when you've lost someone, so people describe like,

you know, they quit their job or they move country or they break up relationships. They're like, who cares? Someone's died. Like,

what else could, would, nothing will hurt me because I've hit my rock bottom. Wow, okay. Yeah, it's a really common thing, especially with young grievers,

but it's called the fire. And like, in my book, I talk about like, lasting about five years. Because I think it takes about five years before you're like, oh, I could be hurt. I am vulnerable, actually.

Whereas maybe this, I think, is what's happening to Maggie in this book as well. Like, you go out and you sleep with people and you are sort of opening your heart and saying, like, yeah, hit it. Who cares? It's dead. Yeah. Who cares? So the last time I was heartbroken, I started stand-up comedy. And absolutely everything you're saying about Maggie. And I think people have respected it more if it's not just like a boy doesn't love me.

I'm going to go and stay to say I'm so unlovable. put a punchline on it. The fire is such an interesting word because it is a kind of manic energy that you get. I mean, you start writing poetry for the first time since you were 11. I love that. Maggie says that. There's one line, isn't it?

Like, I can't have you been starting writing poetry again? What else do with that energy? Yeah, yeah. And poetry really does come for us all. I think at that point, a friend of one's going through breakup right now and she was like, and the poems are back out. And I was like, that's okay. That's okay.

That's all right. It's okay. She's such another friend and like, I could show you them if you want. And the friend's so gently. put a hand on the shoulder, went, I don't want to see it. I don't want to. It's private. That's private. It's private. Also, long term, you'll be glad you didn't show anyone.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're going to keep that in here, I think. But it's sad because at the time you think, maybe this is really good poetry. Maybe I'm a genius. It's really raw. And you think, and I didn't even have to edit it. I'm not like words of it. It didn't take me eight months. It took 95 seconds. Just to spew it all out. I hate him. He hates me. Genius. Absolutely genius.

It's interesting that what you're talking about is like vulnerability, isn't it? That somebody can, that we have the ability to be affected so much by each other. And I know, obviously, and look, don't write to me about death being important. I get it. But like, they're different things. But it is that feeling of things you thought you could trust falling apart. And obviously, Maggie's marriage, she really, she, you get the sense she believed in it. She really thought, she wasn't like, oh, let's see what happens.

You know, she was like, no, no, this is going to last. And we're a kooky crazy. young people who found each other young and this is what's going to look. I wonder if there's something about that lack of cynicism that it's much more likely if it's an early relationship. Because if you've had two or three big loves and then you marry number four. Yeah. For example.

Built in. Built in some cynicism. Yeah, that's true. Wake up. How's your breakfast? We probably won't be together forever. It's so unlikely. I think it's also about that late 20s period where you think, and I find myself continually, like,

being humbled by my own life because I keep reaching places where I'm like, oh, this is it. This will be my adult life. And obviously everyone, no anyone thinking about it for even five seconds knows the only thing that's constant is that is going to change constantly. But I keep reaching stages in my life where I'm like, this is the one. And now it will stay here and that will be my adult life. And obviously that's not the case. And I think it's especially intense in your late 20s because you're like, well, I'm a grown

up. I'm practically 30. And if you've, you know, if, like me and like Maggie, you got married young, you're like, I'm really actually crushing being a grown-up. I started being grown up at 27, 26. But this is definitely, and then this is just what we're going to do. We're just going to ride this out for the rest of our lives. And it can be really destabilizing to, I think, learn that everything is going to turn over like that all the time.

Everything that you took to be true about life will probably only be true for a little while. I wonder if there's something about one's parents or one's parents' lives because I've always thought of adulthood as a very unattractive state because I have very unhappy parents. And I remember in my 20s reading a book about, it's extended notony, it was the term they were using for people who just wanted to be children forever. And it's like usually people whose parents are really miserable,

they don't want anything to do with adulthood. Oh, that's interesting. So if your parents seem stable and they've made good decisions and they don't scream at you, how much they regret having it. One could emulate it and then find out, oh, that's not my path. Or it's even more disappointing. Obviously, I can't help but come back to grief because everything for me is grief.

And that is like my, the lesson you're talking about that, like founding lesson of like, oh, you can't trust life. Happened to me when my dad died at 15. So I'm like awful person that when I had my first heartbreak and this person was bawling their eyes out, I was like, I'm not dead. What is your problem? And I remember telling her an friend that who was like, could you see that they were upset?

And I was like, but I'm not dead. Like I could not get there because I was like, you will, yeah. They were like, yeah, but they wouldn't have you in their life. And I'm still here. Like you can physically see me. And that for me was such a like, oh, life is bullshit. You can't trust it. Everything you think is going to change.

Nothing is stable. I think for most people it is heartbreak that kind of pulls the rug and goes, which is why, you know, we write about it and we obsess about it and we try and understand it all the time. And heartbreak, I can't believe. believe feels the same every single time. Like I've been through like kind of three big heartbreaks now. And I keep thinking that the experience of having been through it before will mean that they aren't as bad.

And it's just like a kitchen knife in the chest every single time like for months. You know, you can't really fast track through it, which is basically the central theme of the book. You just have to like have quite a bad time for as long as it takes. Which is, I thought was such a good message, because that is like the message that we say with grief these days is like, you can't rush this, you have to go through the pain, you can't make it go away. And there aren't linear stages of like, oh, great, you're finding, you feel slightly better than yesterday. And that's going to continue happening until you're fine. You break up with him January by August.

You'll be okay. Oh yeah, because people try and say things to you, especially when you're younger, they say things like, oh, it's half of the time of the relationship to get over the person. Yeah, Maggie says that one point, doesn't it? So I can't be in love with Simon because it's too early, basically, because I haven't done the number of days I need to do to be over that one. It's so tempting to think there's a formula for all of it, right? Like half the amount of time of the relationship it takes to get over, and then you can be ready to love someone else.

And it's like so often those things are overlapping where, like, you're still many months out of a relationship and grieving it, but you maybe are getting back out there and dating and then having, like, feelings for someone else, but still processing the end of a relationship. Like, it's all very messy. Desmond Morris wrote once about how people get into relation. Because we have this focus on monogamy and long-term monogamy commitment,

that what happens is you have a huge breakup, which actually should take a large chunk of your life to let go of. But society does not allow that. So you're sort of rushed into meeting other people when you're actually not emotionally available properly to connect with them. So you then break their heart, which means they then go and break other people's hearts. And then they break their hearts. And so he has this sort of image of like,

and that's why society is broken. just scattered with broken hearts everywhere because all of us are quite often starting things with people when we can't offer them what they need. I definitely remember that feeling at university of being like, we went to uni together. I remember saying this once,

I'm sure to you or our friend Vanessa, of like either you're the arsehole or someone else is the asshole, like in relationship. Do you know what I mean? Like you're saying, of either you, without meaning to realize

that you are being the one that doesn't call, the one does this, or they are. And it's sort of like this harsh reality that that's what it is. There's never a kind of, you can't avoid it. But also you're trading it off depending on the relationship, right?

Like sometimes you have a sense of yourself as like, I'm great in a relationship because my last partner really disappointed me, but I didn't disappoint anyone. And then, you know, cut to four years later and you're like, I've been very disappointing here. Yes, yeah, yeah. That's what I mean. So it's just like nobody, again, you see the permanence, you're like, oh, I'm a good, I'm a good relationship person. And then you find yourself doing exactly what someone's done to you.

and you're like, oh, I see why they did that, yeah. Life is a lot more sort of like loose clothes in the washing machine vibe than you would hope. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You would hope there was a bit more ordered to it, but I don't think there is. I don't think there is. That's what I mean, like, coming back to death, like, there isn't. Shit just happens, and sometimes people are just awful to you. And I think the thing that used to drive me mad is you get with your girlfriends

and you obsess why they did it. They did it because their parents or this and this. And actually sometimes people are just shit. There's no rhyme or reason to it. You can't justify it. Something that I thought was really interesting with John and Maggie. is that the breakup you think you might have might not actually be the breakup you can offer.

So they initially on quite good communication, but then he really shuts her off. Oh, I was very annoyed with him for that. Very annoyed. Very annoyed. And you find out how much she's actually trying to talk to him as well. Yeah. And it's not unreasonable to need to talk to someone.

Yeah, it's not unreasonable to want to discuss. The cat. The cat that they share. You know, economic things, stuff, shared friendships. lips. Don't cut me off. I'm not an addict, but I did used to live with you and see you every day. Also, apparently a heartbreak is like addiction. They've done studies and it's like, it's like emotionally equivalent to heroin withdrawal. Like it's very intense. You are actually like feeling cravings for the other person.

There's this like assumption that obviously it's just like my diary from when I went through a breakup. Yeah, yeah. I was going to ask that. Because people really love the whole idea that a writer really knows what they're writing about. But then there's such a double-edged sword. Yeah. when it's like the author's photograph and like who also got divorced. I know. My mom basically thinks the book is like a documentary that I made about my life. But what I wanted to do with it, I think creatively was basically like it was so important

to me during my divorce to try and be the best behaved divorced person in the world. I don't know why. And I think I kind of like denied myself a certain amount or delayed a certain amount of emotional processing by not being angry or super sad or, or even intense maybe when I wanted to. So a lot of the, the book is based on like emotional impulses that I had, but it's like what would it have been like

if I had called every time that I wanted to? You know, what would it have been like if I was as selfish as I felt and kind of wanted to be? It's like a nightmare version of the divorce if I had like no coping mechanisms at all was suspicious of therapy and acted as crazy as I was feeling inside

instead of kind of like sitting in my house going crazy by myself. I love that reveal. Spoiler, obviously if we listen to this podcast, that when she finally does get therapy, and we do hear John, and John reveals what shit Maggie's been doing. And because you are really on Maggie's side, and you're like, he should call out, this is dreadful. And then when he's like, yeah, then the voicemail started and you sang that whole song. And the food deliveries.

And there's a really nice moment where like when you've been so supportive of your friend and you're like, he's an asshole. And you're like, you did what? Oh God, I don't know how to defend you now because that's crazy. So in our personal life, Carriad and I, the breakup that made me start stand-up comedy, I was actually living in her house with her and her mum. Okay. And so while Carriad's not an older lady, who's my boss at university, there was a similarity in that you have quite a kind person.

I related to Merris. Yes. Yeah, I've got, I'm an internal Marys. Looking at someone being quite self-destructive. Yeah. I remember once, I was having a nice cry on your kitchen floor. after a couple of bottles It's so good to be on the floor

I don't know why it's the kitchen You gotta get down Guys they say the same thing in grief Yeah that's fair like knees don't work in grief Yeah your knees collapse People fall to the floor It's something about grounding Your body's trying to ground you

To literally be like You're okay You're trying to find the earth And they recommend like take your shoes off Walk on the earth Sit down It's a human thing that's saying Everything that's happened to you

It's so overwhelming and emotional Your body needs to know like Oh where am I I'm still here I'm just like okay Gravity's got me Yeah. Even if no one else likes me.

I'm still on the ground. I'm a thing that lives here. This is who I am. God, so it's like yoga in a way. Yeah. Maybe that's why I was so attracted. I was going to say,

yeah, my third breakup, that was the last one is I went to Costa Rica or to a yoga retreat. And that's, I think, with the financial differences in my breakups, that the last one, I had a bit of money and I could finally do the sort of white woman,

pamper yourself. I took myself to Portugal recently. Same thing. I was like, you know what? I'm not 27 this time. I'm going to go to Portugal. But then you're just feeling all the same crazy.

crazy feelings you were feeling alone in your bad apartment at 27 except you're in Portugal and the hotel has sent up a full bottle of champagne and chocolate-dipped strawberries for just you I don't know why they did that it was depressing it was about too much if there was a sort of conversation in Portuguese about you know that lady looked so sad why do we only give chocolate colour strawberries so happy couples yeah she deserves them to sad single people yeah the concierge's note said I am here for you but sorry you were saying you found me on I find you on the floor. So Carriad really did try in that way that people who genuinely care about you,

which you cannot, I mean, I couldn't bear at the time. Oh, no. She's not good to be looked after. If you don't care about yourself very much. She gets very difficult to be cared about. If you try and care her, makes her. And so, you know, on the floor, drunk. But just you sort of like, well, maybe, do you think maybe going out and drinking all this wine of boys who do

stand up comedy, it's the best way ahead for you? Because you don't seem to be very happy. I think James Corden had dropped a glass of wine on me that night. That was a bad night. You did get yourself into a bit of a state. Maybe have some toast or something. Soak it up. It's such a sensible.

And that's how I felt about her boss at work. You know, you give people so much leeway. But if they're in a self-destructive state, they're still going to do something wrong. There's no rescuing. And again, that's a lesson we all have to learn. Like with your friends, you can't. People just got to go through it. And you just have to say McGreeve.

You just got to wait for them to be there. You can't fix it. You can't make it better. You can't put a plaster on it. If they need to get drunk and sit on the floor, that's what they need to do. But what you hope happens with age is that the next time you do notice that person cares about me. Listen to what that person is saying. Yeah, hopefully.

Hopefully. That was what was kind of fun to play with, I think, is like just the true car crash of your first major, major heartbreak. Because, like, they're so wily heartbroken people because they just want to be, like, on the floor, drunk, being self-destructive, but they're kind of clever about it. Like, I feel like they ask for advice. It's only because they want to talk about it. Oh, yeah. They want to talk. They just want to talk about it.

They don't know. And you learn that lesson. Wow, we had a really good chat. We all really agreed. We were going to stop the drinking and have toast. What's that door slam? Yeah. What?

She's back out. Corton's in a taxi. Yeah. You're like, but we agreed. Like a feral cat out of the window. I learned. I learned. But I also wonder if that's part of how your brain helps you

survive. There's this line that I loved that you wrote Monica when she's actually wondering if she's flourishing. Oh yes, I'm thriving. She's sort of walking in the moonlight and actually you consider yourself from a different angle. Maybe this is. And I think that's what your brain does to you when you're heartbroken is that you have these extremes, actually euphoric extremes of like I've got no skin on, but this might be the most alive I've ever been and the most I understand Pablo Neruda And actually, I think if I was Prime Minister, I could save everyone because I see things so clearly. Maybe I was sublime right now, walking in the moonlight

of my glorious, complicated self-hose. This was about a man. I stopped the kissing almost immediately. Sleeping with the man who had read Neruda at our wedding seemed like it would be very satisfying in a way that felt vulgar and dangerous. But it was certainly not the mature way of doing things. See? The little colonel, don't do that.

Well, she does it later. She does it later. She just does it later. But as a friend, you're like, see, you didn't do it straight away. well done you yes you slept with him later but you there's a part of you you know was wrong when you were doing it and i guess that's something that's self-awareness but yeah and i think again it comes on to like human vulnerability of like when you were smashed to pieces there is an aliveness to that because you are at your most raw self and that's why you are sort of weirdly untouchable and you can

and it feels better than numbness yeah which can be part of the stages of it and you do get really open in a way that i wish i could access a little bit outside of being smashed to pieces like My ex-boyfriend said that the most positive thing was that music, he always loved music and loves music, but music became so amazing. Oh, yeah. And then it starts to fade as you get better. And it's like, oh, God, I wish to just keep that aspect of it where every song was written for him. Yeah. And he was the only person who truly understood.

There's a lot of adrenaline, isn't it? There's not of like, because it's like something is broken, so your body is panicking. Like, this is gone. What do I do? And then in that, you sort of, when you have adrenaline, you feel like. the center of something. There is such a pain to that, but also an aliveness to that,

which I think you see with Maggie a lot, that she's kind of like, this is, I feel a lot of stuff. Yeah. It's not great, but I'm definitely feeling. Everything's very vivid and intense. And also probably you're reading,

that line you quoted Sarah, like you're reading a lot of self-help books and, like, poems. So you get into that kind of elevated sort of Glenn and Doyle-type language a little bit where you're like, I guess I am kind of a warrior. And do you think that's where karaoke comes in?

You need it It's got to be there It's a real I think it is I think the karaoke Fantasy thing Is very real That's a real thought

That I had during my divorce Was like Maybe I will go to the right Karaoke place And sing the right song And he'll see it And it will undo Every hurt we've done to each other

And we'll both know And we'll make eye contact And it'll be like a star is born It's deranged Like magical thinking Grandiosity I think it's that deranged because someone I know

I fell out with someone that they know so this is two women who are very good friends but then Shnade O'Connor died and one of them sang a Shnade O'Connor song and another one was there and at the end went up and hugged her and they both cried women are so intense I love us I love it so much so I think that fantasy is based

on a kernel of truth it's just very very rare yeah two women friendships I can believe would use that together so you think straight men are the problem but they don't understand the love language of karaoke they love karaoke but the songs that they love karaoke aren't going to hit in that way. I think it's a media problem that, you know,

like you've seen that in a film that make a great romantic comedy. That's a great sitcom moment where like it's going to be okay. Narrativising. Yeah. And I bought like that's what, you know, that's what we're always trying to do with pain is put a narrative on it. And we're always trying to find the end where the credits roll and we feel better.

And actually what this book does so brilliantly with heartbreak and what all grief psychologists recommend is that you have to learn to live with it. Like it's not, you don't get the credits rolling. You don't get at the moment where you're like, high five, it's over. And he runs towards me. And he's like, I've got the cat.

I'm so sorry. And that's what I liked about this book as well. You're constantly pulling that rug of like, we don't, she's not what she needs. She doesn't need to have that karaoke moment. Or as a therapist said, you need to have a relationship with yourself. I wanted to resist there being too much, like,

linear plot because it's not, you know, healing's not linear. I don't know why I'm saying that in a funny voice. It's true. It's also embarrassing. It's embarrassing, right? And that's the, I think, the big thing of the book is like, it is a little embarrassing to take your feelings seriously

and to process something like a heartbreak or a loss, like that you have to. And she's kind of resisting. The most of the book is about a woman running up full speed away from painful feelings and away from having to have that relationship with herself. Yeah. Through fantasy, through classes, through sex, through... The other fantasy that I really loved,

And it made me think a lot about how busy he must be in fantasy. It's Harry Styles. The Harry Stars is so good. It's so good. He's so good. And he's such a perfect fantasy fodder because he's so high status. But also he's not so, I think he's not so sexually aggressive that it's. That's what it means.

It's like there's something sort of like puckish about him. He looks like someone has got their dog dressed. But he's the coolest person in the world. And also, we don't know him. We're projecting everything onto him. But he's spirit. You feel like there's a mischievous spirit. it that feels like yes he would protect a heartbroken woman that's the thing it's like you need we needed

like a famous person like a sexy rock star person but a lot of sexy rock star people seem like they would be bad boyfriend yeah yeah the other reason that it's harry styles is because his album came out right before uh i got divorced and so i and we had booked this month long trip my husband and i and then we divorced or broke up before and i was like i'm just going to go by myself and i was just walking around Iceland in June where the sun didn't set listening to Harry Stiles's album over and over again and a madness took over me where I was just like I wonder when I will meet him not like I wonder what it would be like to meet him I wonder what he's like yeah where will it be and then a year later I was in New York City no monica and I had left my credit card at a bar the night before because

I was young and alive and I had to go back to the bar um to get it and when I went into the bar was like this dive bar on the lower east side it was the same vibe as last night but everyone is being very quiet and I was like this is very strange and then I was waiting to pay for the thing and I looked over and was like that man playing pool is very handsome and it was Harry Stiles in the dive bar and for like a very gorgeous and diluted like 30 seconds my brain was like well well well well well it finally happened going to make a twist night that's going to surprise both of us. Obviously that's not what happened. I just sort of stared at him playing pool and then he had an argument with a model outside and left. It sounds like he's trying to get your attention.

Yeah. Why was he there? He must have known. What was the row about? Yeah. Why aren't you let me win at pool anymore? Oh, you're trying to impress her by the woman from all your fantasies is here. Her book is international successful. I'm just a model. Yes, Sarah. You don't appreciate my new album. Maggie Googles. What's wrong with Gemini's? Oh, the real psychos of the zodiac. Some people have said in your book, It's you. But aren't you a Gemini? Yeah, yeah. That's what I'm asking both of you.

Stuff out here. Did you not recognise one of your kids speaking? It's very hard. That's what people are saying. Who's saying that? You've never told me this. You know that? No.

You don't know that by yourself. I thought it was the best. What a Gemini thing not to know. What a Gemini. Katie Price, me and Monica. Naomi Campbell. Come on. Oh, what is.

Tees are your own example. Katie Price and Naomi Campbell. Okay. Sorry. Do we put it all out there? Yes, we do. Are we vulnerable? and really arrogant at the same time, yes.

What is not brilliant about what you're hearing. It's not that it's not brilliant. But psychos of the zodiac. Psychos? Psychos don't empathise. We over-emopathise. We empathise enough for all 12 signs. Winners of the zodiac, yes.

The best of the zodiac. Better than all the other signs. Hey, as the king. As the king. As the king. Okay, Leo's have nice hair. So everyone says about Leo's. I've told you to your face.

You didn't tell me about them. I thought you knew. Yeah, that's very well known. That's very well known. Gemini's are crazy. I love them. My faves. Gemini's and Leo's together.

Do you know this? Great glamour. Everyone knows. Everyone likes. And then you listed Naomi Campbell and Katie Price. As your... Katie Price. Yes.

Yes. Not a lot of people that I would go to first with a problem. Not a lot of people who would be like, hey, I'm here to bring reality to the situation. Oh, beige, boring people. Oh, how do you? The sofas of the... Well, sometimes when someone's drunk on the floor, they need to hear things. I'm glad I asked that question.

And now, well, now we know. I had a confession, this is jumping around completely. Oh, yeah. I didn't find out to page 63 that John had a beard. And it made me realize, and it made me realize that I visualize all men as clean-shaven. You know, they talk about the platonic idea. I would never imagine a beard unless it had been signposted. I think all those, so I had to draw it on, my face.

But in my head, I had to sort of go, okay, okay. With a bio. I think I have met Monica's actual ex-husper. having met him, then you would know that the description, the book is essentially just an opposite. I wanted the ex-husband character. He features very minimally in the book, I think because I

knew that people would assume that it was about me. And I really was, I'm fine with that, but I'm not fine with people making kind of like assumptions that they can know or understand anything about my ex-partner. But also to mostly leave him out of it because what I wanted to write about

was the experience of being suddenly alone rather than dis-sendombed. then dissecting, you know, a relationship. Yeah. So much, so many relationships, so many like breakup books end up being relationship books because they're about what went wrong and if the relationship could have been saved and who's to blame and all of those, all of those kinds of big stories that you have at the end of a relationship that are still part of the relationship dying.

And I kind of wanted to start with like, this is over. This has been over for a little bit. And that's why I think it's griefy. Because it's not a breakup book as in like, oh, now we're going to like go into he did this or he slept with her, which is not very griefy. But it is somebody who is bereft and have been left and is left alone. And that's why there's a lot of griefiness in there. Love griefiness over death griefiness.

But like it is somebody who's very much lost something. And that's what, yeah. Yeah, the absence. A clean-shaven absence. Something else I thought so illustrative of characters, interaction with the world and themselves is their relationship to food. Do I think you write about? It's really funny and really truthful, but also really, really well in terms of it's so tempting with a heartbreaking character to just have them starve themselves or deny themselves or punish themselves.

But you allowed us to know a little bit about Maggie's history with food as well as her current relationship with food, but she's not broken in that way. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I just had read so many novels about women wasting away to nothing. And it's like a very, I understand that that is. a real, both a realistic thing and like a very potent metaphor for someone making themselves smaller. And then you kind of have yourself in this double bind where you're like, I know that this is a result of bullshit social pressures, but I still feel crushed by those pressures and want to

respond to them and don't quite know how. But I love how you talk about it because what you make clear is that, I mean, we must forgive ourselves. I'm quoting you back to yourself, but no one has a completely healthy relationship with food and exercise, at least not anyone who came of age during the period when the cover story of every supermarket tabloid was some variation on this beach hag has cellulide. It's like a lot of it's not our fault. Yeah. Yeah.

So if you're not one of those people who's completely healthy in that regard. I think it's so interesting because I think it's such a human reaction. There is also a relationship of I am broken. I'm in pain. Therefore, I'm not going to nurture myself. And food is nurturing. And it's not healthy. It's not great.

But I love that it was dealt with in a, that's not the story. that's not like oh my god yeah she's disappearing because a man has broken her yeah and this is a way that people cope other people that again that really i think hackneyed but it does happen they know how terribly you are internally you know you're a size 10 now yeah yeah so that's going to get a compliment yeah yeah that's the good side of it's revenge revenge bodies there's a whole idea that that's your only power afterwards well she says that her friend is like waiting for the what's he called when you have to go for the meeting like the last divorce thing and her friend is like I'm when he sees me like I'm getting

ready for yeah whether that's official word for it isn't it like is it amy who's like preparing herself oh when he sees me like he's gonna well and that's the thing is like you feel so I think it's very I don't know if this is a grief analog as well but it's like you just feel sort of hyper visible it's like everyone knows that you're going through this embarrassing thing especially I think after a wedding which is so public and you make such a literal spectacle of yourselves and love and you agreed in front of everyone that you would try forever. And then you broke that promise to each other and sort of your whole community, right? By promising to do this thing that you then couldn't do.

And I think the temptation then, if everyone's looking, is to kind of shine yourself up a bit in this very conventional way. The Instagram stuff has a PR exercise because it's the visibility of coping. Yeah. Yes. Or winning. Yeah. I mean, the paranoia that sneaks in when you're heartbroken, I think, is that everyone's looking at you and judging you and like the problem with Instagram is that that is then is true like

your your your darkest kind of worries are realized on that platform and like I think everyone's guilty but I've definitely been the person who was like you know she hasn't really posted that guy in a while and suddenly it's been three hours you're on his cousins Instagram girlfriend was nowhere to be seen yeah you know what I mean yeah well you have the so much more information than I used to It's so funny when you're saying Nobody on Instagram was intense They focused on the positive and owned milk frothers From what I could gather men loved women

Who were creative but not interesting Women loved women who knew how to style 12 different earrings per lobe I was like yes How do they do it? My wish my greatest wish Such good styling on those lobes And so many piercings

And they all seem fine with it How much you can peer into someone's life Is new And that's definitely not what we had But also that we think we can manipulate or trick Yeah Sometimes when people are faking wellness.

They use a lot of hashtags. Oh, yeah. Far too many. Yeah. The hashtag happy. The hashtag happy alone. I'm reading more into that. Yeah.

I feel like you can tell on Instagram now at this stage I can tell on Instagram, not just when someone's going through a breakup, but right before they're about to go through a breakup. Oh, wow. That is a really good superpower. They get very philosophical on those, what the captions get longer. Yeah.

They get long. And they get very philosophical. And hey, you know, I've been thinking. They start posting the partner a lot. What we've been through and what we've, but looking back together, I can see how far we've come. And I know we'll always have each other despite the bumps in the road. So if you're listening, look at your own Instagram. It's Ben Affleck's Oscar speech where he's like, Jen, thank you for putting up with me, Red Flag.

And then was like marriage is a lot of work. It's like, you don't need to say that. And do you think she told him to say that? Jennifer Garner is an Ares. Lopez is a Leo. Oh. That makes a little. And this is why people tune into a literary podcast, I think.

Affleck is a Leo. Two leo. Well, how could the Aewees compete with that? Afflex and Lopez. Yeah. Afflex is what I call him. Afflex. He got that huge Phoenix tattoo all over his back,

which is some of the most divorced behavior I've ever seen. Wow. It's a full back piece of a Phoenix. Full back. Where were his friends then? It's a great question. Where was the other one? Matt, what's it?

You're making me feel more compassionate towards my husband because he got divorced just before we got married. And he didn't want to get married. He had to for citizenship. Oh, yeah. Classic. But he went through quite a big struggle about it because he'd had a big wedding less than two years or maybe two and a half years previously.

And it was, you know, big deal, proper, you know, planning and speeches and his dad cried. There's a huge amount of guilt afterwards, which I've just sort of shrugged at. Yeah. Because I didn't value it. I don't value marriage. Yeah, you have such a different...

Because I'm still a child. Yeah, right. You never wanted the fastest you're not somebody you got. I'm a Gemini. Yeah. My theory is that if we culturally agreed that 30th birthdays were as big an event as a wedding, like everyone had to come, maybe they had to come to Greece. Yeah. And everyone would get really dressed up and you get your hair and makeup professionally done.

Everyone would do speeches about how you were a genius on the right path in life and give you a bit of money. I think we would have a lot fewer marriages. Or just if we all got a bit more attention. Because I think I honestly think it's an attention thing. Yeah. The wedding, when people talk about what it is, it's like the day is about me, it is my day. It's like, I didn't feel like that. No.

Yeah. And I never wanted it. Because you have a job that involves getting lots of attention. That's what I mean. Performers already, it's like how actors don't love fancy dress parties. Yeah, that's true. I didn't feel like that at my wedding. I wasn't like, I want everyone to look at me.

I was like, I don't want you to look at me. Get it done. You weren't attention seeking at all, were you? The opposite of my real life. Whereas me and my friend Vanessa wrote them a song and then we cried too much to sing it. They cried so much. So I was worried about them. Like a mum, I liked to be like,

people were bringing us tissues. That's so nice. At my wedding, they're like sobbing. She can't finish the song. Her voice is cracking. And if it was friends, someone would have said, stop stealing her thunder.

Right. And I didn't mind because I didn't want the thunder, so it's fine. If it would have been a play, I would have been furious. People love to ask me if I like weddings still. And I'm like, yeah. Yes.

But are your friends afraid to invite you? Because that slamming bit at the end where she like destroys weddings from beginning to end, I would be like, And Monica's going to judge our invite so badly. Monica's going to judge our Instagram posted the rings. Like, I'm sorry, we're so basic.

Like, I'd be really worried. Yeah, I haven't thought that. I didn't think about that, really. I've completely forgot about extreme makeover programs. And how have I forgotten? They're one of those things that you revisit as well, and it's more mad than you think. Yeah. Those shows where it was like, this person's so ugly.

10 years younger, they used to take them out to this shopping centre. And then he talks to their family, who all say, yeah, their life would be better if they were less ugly. And then they had surgery. Lots of surgery. Yeah. And those things who started being on TV. And then the ending of the show is, thank fuck for that a little better.

Yeah. We didn't have a choice but to absorb that now. I watched that with my mum. Like, that's normal telly. Yeah. I know. It's insane. It's insane.

Well, like the thing that's doing the rounds at the moment of Bridget Jones, of like when they used to that picture. We were told she was fat. And that was like, oh, she had 20 donuts a day to get, to get that ridiculously fat. I remember seeing that reading it and seeing the picture and going, okay, that's what. what fat is.

Bridget Jones's diet, which is like, you know, two cigarettes, two glasses of wine. And the calories were listed at every entry, right? And that was like funny. That was a funny thing. Funny realism, you know, women. I feel like it's a little strange right now because people are sort of revisiting Bridget Jones's diary and being like, this is so messed up of Bridget, the character. And I'm like, surely that's a larger conversation about the culture that that character existed.

Again, you shouldn't blame the woman in this situation. Yeah, she was a hugely successful character because she reflected back everything women were being taught. Yeah. And so had internalised. It was an incredible characterisation of what we were made to have us in the monologues. And I much had a media conversation, because I remember before that film even came out, there was so much about secret shots of her walking along in the Playboy bunny outfit and see how fat she's got, basically.

And that must have been a PR campaign. But like, you know, they make documentaries now about how Britney Spears was treated by the press. Oh, God. partly it's because we were relatively young at that point, but also because things just started happening and we didn't know to question them yet. I think that's what's so brilliant about this book, and I think obviously why it's been so successful,

you are capturing, especially with that, like you said, the way we're talking about relationships and Instagram, social media, is a particular point in time in a particular... And I do feel like I'm slightly older than it, but I can totally relate to it. And I must be women reading this being like, fuck, that's my life.

Like, that's how I felt, That's what I've been doing through my heartbreak. That's how my friends have been like fed up of me and having to go therapy. It's like you've really captured it, which is I say that. It's not easy to do that to like sense what everyone's doing and do it funny. It's really funny. Thank you. Congratulations.

Just one's say, that's what she's done. She's done it well. She raised this kid well. So I have a question. No, go on. It's about success. Oh, yes. Because I'm always intrigued.

From your show. What's success like? externally it seems like it's done absolutely brilliantly in both of the best ways which is people thinking it's really good and lots of people reading and engaging with it the two main does it feel like that to you i was just saying yesterday because i just came back from the edinburgh book festival where i met some people who had read it that that was such a treat because you write it especially i mean i wrote it during covid but i think writing is kind of a solitary thing in general um you went extra It's always cut it. Yeah, you're sort of manufacturing the conditions of a lockdown for yourself. It feels a little abstract to me that people have read it.

Like, friends will sometimes send a creepy pick that they've taken of someone reading it on the subway or whatever. And that feels very exciting. I think if I saw, I haven't seen someone read it yet, I went to the airport when I was going on that madwoman solo trip to Portugal and it was in the airport bookstore. And I lingered for so long with a tiny perverted little smile on my face. just like thinking I might see someone pick it up. Sad behavior just had to leave with my big water in my magazine. So I think it feels quite abstract.

But you must have this with your work too. You do it and it's not possible really to have a real sense of the... It feels embarrassing to me still when people are like, congratulations. It's doing really well. I'm like, I hope so. I hope that's true. But I also hope not to know anymore.

I think that's why I ask because I hope, I assume, that there's something very huge. about, you know, the really exciting thing is the creative process and then the bit where people can actually engage with it is quite odd. But I know one man who does comedy who punches the air after good gigs. So there must be another human reaction. How can you feel like that about literally anything in life? It's very moving when somebody says the book spoke to me. I find that very touching and I feel really lucky. I think it's hard because you want to protect yourself from any particular goal or outcome other than making something that you personally like and feel proud of and stand behind.

But it is nice. And then obviously the main thing is that sort of girls going through a cuckoo time will trust me with their heartbroken secrets. I think with success, I know enough about it, but there's the feeling when something goes well, which is a sort of weird numb feeling. And it doesn't go well. The feeling it doesn't go well, you're very aware of. that's a, that's, because if you have, if you have too much of the numb, it's going well, you're like, well, I don't know, everything feels strange.

And then when something doesn't go away, you're like, oh, there it is. There it is. Oh, I can feel that. And then you're like, actually bring back that numb feeling. Give me that numb a little bit more. But it's like, I find it hard to let myself make them equal. Yes. Like, if it doesn't go, well, I'm on the floor. I feel terrible.

But if it goes well, I don't go, well, here's me punching the air, because that's the opposite. I'm like, let's not get too excited. Someone might die. I think other people focus on the good things and you focus on the bad. things. People will be like, congratulations on the novel. And I'll be like, the headline for the telegraph review was really bad actually. Was it really?

Yeah. Oh, fuck. Yeah, yeah. Honestly, it was kind of a thrill to be panned one time. One solid pan. Yeah. If you can imagine that's not your paper. It was all right.

Yeah, it's like drag race when one of the queens is like, I'm just always safe and I want to know what they think of me and you're like, you don't. You don't want that. You don't want it. And then they get torn. You're like to stay safe. But it's so, because I interviewed an author who, to me, when I was Googling, trying to, you know, pull stuff together for an interview, it's just such brilliant reviews. And the first thing I said was like, God, it's been so critically acclaimed.

And he was like, no. And it's that thing of perception of like, I was like, to me, looking for you, not being able to find, you know, straight away, having to search for it. It was all positive. And he was like, no, there was this one or this one. It's like, you always, it's so frustrating that that's what the human brain cleans to. But that's why I think you have to just like put some careful distaste. between you and any kind of reception like that, particularly if you want to try and write another one,

which is what I'm doing now. How's that going? It's going okay. I had sort of a... Did you have to get divorced again? Yeah, I had to engineer a long relationship and then explode that. He gave him the warning, right? This is not going to last.

This is for book two. I did sign a two book deal. We normally end on a quote. I had one quote, which I just liked. You do yours and then I'll do mine. It was just merris. It was just, I just thought this was a brilliant line. Oh, Maggie, she said, we're not friends.

We're two people having a hard time. It just was like, yeah, loved it. I've written down. Although my personal life was in a shambles. My tweets about it were doing great. Yes, yes. And sometimes that's the best you can hope for. And you are great on Twitter.

I recommend a follow. It's an amazing book. It was so nice to talk to you. Thank you for bringing your book baby along. We really enjoyed it. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for listening to The Weirdo's Book Club. You can find Monica on Twitter and Instagram.

Monica Heisey, that's H-E-I-S-E-Y, and her book, Really Good Actually. We'll be out in paperback from the 28th of September, or you can buy it in hardback straight away. Sarah's brand-new debut novel, Weirdo, is also available for pre-order now. Head to your favourite, coolest, most brilliant bookseller, ASAP, and your copy will whistle your postbooks as soon as it's out, making you the most organised, cool reader in town.

Carrie Ann's book, You Are Not Alone, is also available, really excitingly in bookshop. Let's support them, the tax-paying ones. For Eager Beavers, get ready for next week. Our book guest will be The Pumpkinita by Penelope Mortimer, if you want to read along. And don't forget next week, we have our first live show. We will be discussing Sarah's new book Weirdo, along with Chaparach, Corsandi and Emma Jane Unsworth at 21 Soho in London on the 6th of September. Head toplosive.com.com.com to get your tickets now.

Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you.