Sara & Cariad's Weirdos Book Club - Rosewater by Liv Little with Liv Little

Episode Date: February 6, 2025

This week's book guest is Rosewater by Liv Little.Sara and Cariad are joined by writer, journalist and founder of gal-dem - Liv Little.In this episode they discuss strap-ons, friendship, rollerblading, debt, friendship, camming and John Legend.Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you!Rosewater by Liv Little with Liv Little is available to buy here.You can find Liv on Instagram @livslittleTickets for Sara's tour show I Am A Strange Gloop are available to buy from sarapascoe.co.ukSara’s debut novel Weirdo is published by Faber & Faber and is available to buy here.Cariad’s book You Are Not Alone is published by Bloomsbury and is available to buy here.Cariad’s children's book The Christmas Wish-tastrophe is available to buy now.Follow Sara & Cariad’s Weirdos Book Club on Instagram @saraandcariadsweirdosbookclub and Twitter @weirdosbookclub Recorded and edited by Naomi Parnell for Plosive.Artwork by Welcome Studio.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Sarah Pasco. Hello, I'm Carriad Lloyd. And we're weird about books. We love to read. We read too much. We talk too much. About the too much that we've read. Which is why we've created the Weirdo's Book Club.

Join us. A space for the lonely outsider to feel accepted and appreciated. A place for the person who'd love to be in a real book club, but doesn't like wine or nibbles. Or being around other people. Is that you? Join us. Check out our Instagram at Sarah and Carriad's Weirdo's Book Club for the upcoming books we're going to be discussing. You can read along and share your opinions.

Or just skulk around in your raincoat like the weirdo you are. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you. This week's book guest is Rosewater by Live Little. What's it about? Elsie is a 20-something, queer woman who's trying to be a poet and struggling to find her way in the depths of South London. What qualifies it for the weirdos book club?

Well, she doesn't once come north of the river. In this episode, we discuss. Strappons. Friendship. Rollerblading. Dead. Cunning. And John Legend.

Joining us this week is Live Little. Live was the founder of the incredible groundbreaking website, Galdem. She has also worked in journalism, audio, TV, and she has won lots of accolades, including the LGBTIQI Broadcaster of the Year and Rising Star at Wow. Her short story, The Sisters, was published in the critically acclaimed hag, a collection of forgotten folk tales we told. She was a BBC writer in residence in 2021,

and this is her debut novel, Rosewater. We are here with Liv Little. Thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for having me. We're so excited to be talking about Rosewater. Yes. Your debut novel. It was. Yes. Yeah. But a very, very experienced, well-known writer already. That's why I hesitate. Different energy, different space. That's why I'm thinking it's not like you hadn't been writing. It's not like some novelist. First fiction, though. First fiction. Yeah. So slightly different skills, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How long did the book live in you before you started writing it?

It was actually all really quick. Yeah. To be honest. And I don't know how. And the second one, I'm already like two years into writing it. It's not been quick. And I don't think it will be. But I think it took me a year. And I'd written like a version of a book before this book. But I think I was being way too like formulaic about it and not really leaning into what, you know, what it was that my heart wanted to say.

So that book kind of didn't go anywhere. And I didn't quite finish it. But with this, I just sat down and thought, what is the story that I want to tell? And it was this book. And Elsie was very clear and screaming at me. And so when I came to sit, I wrote the book in about a year. And it was also a year when I was caring for my dad, who was diagnosed with a condition called my neurone disease. So it was like a really, like, really difficult time.

And so I don't really know how I did it. But I think it was like my one space of joy and a space for me to just to just get lost in something that wasn't hospitals and, you know, all of the stressful stuff. So weirdly, yeah, I would never be able to replicate that moment. Do you feel like your life and your art, you know, were sort of mirroring each other? Yeah, yeah, I think so. And this is like definitely not a book about grief in an obvious way, but I think it is a book about making sense of home and belonging and like grieving for previous versions of yourself, right?

So I think, you know, I was a bit of my sad girl energy at the time. Definitely, you can feel it. The character of Elsie, she's got so many dramatic things going on where she's not really in control. I think that there's a... It's interesting, isn't it? If you're personally going through something, but your brain can sort of turn it inside out unrecognizably,

but the emotions are there. Yeah, and I don't think you don't even realise that in the beginning. I think there was a lot going on. I think also I just, like, quit this job that I was really known for doing, and I moved to Margate. I'd left London. I was, like, running away, hiding, doing all the things. And actually, it's interesting because, yeah,

there's all of these things that are out of her control, but I think the thing that she is very clear of is like, actually, her voice is very strong. And I think I'd lost a lot of confidence in terms of my own voice. And then writing this character that was kind of like, fuck all of you in a way. Actually, she kind of gave me more confidence and strength in my own voice and what I wanted to say.

I'd spent my whole career telling everyone, use your voice and say what you want and be true to yourself. And I was kind of shrinking. And so I think writing this quite, I wouldn't say she's a loud character, but I think because of the way she's moved through the world, she's had to be protective of herself and to assert boundaries and all of these things.

Actually, writing that character was really, yeah, healing for me, I think in many different ways. And I always thought, oh, you know, so when people say that writing is healing, like, surely not. It doesn't actually. But actually, I think there were things in this. And I also think that the first novel energy cannot be replicated.

Yeah, yeah. That second book is, like, really. really hard to get into. You just kind of don't know what you're doing, do you? And so you kind of keep, you just, it flows in a different way. But it's really interesting. So obviously you were known for Galdem, the website and print media. And, you know, there was huge and hugely successful.

And, you know, like, there must have been... And completely unique, no one else doing that kind of thing to put in this kind of writers. Yeah. It's amazing start. The huge... The huge... It starts with her being kicked out. Yeah.

The overbearing nature of being in debt in general. But this isn't a subtle, this is a, your home is being taken. And it's sort of her fault in terms of like she hasn't done the admin, but because it's terrifying and because it's overwhelming and because she's not a person who can cope with those things. Yeah, and who hasn't had a foundational, you know, structure to say, these are the things that you shouldn't do. You're learning it for yourself.

And you know what often, you know, all of these kind of like people who get you to take out short-term loans and stuff, right? They're praying on people who are vulnerable and who really need financial support. And so you can imagine, you move out at 15, 16, 17, 18, and you don't have all of the tools and the skills. Of course you're probably going to get yourself into a mess because you're responsible. I got myself into a terrible mess. I had to move in with Carrad and her mom. Don't say like that.

No, no, that's not the mess. I was lucky that because I didn't have, I did have through a university friend and her mom. That was my safety net. But I got into debt at university, not realizing I. would have to pay it back. So I took out student overdrafts and student credit cards. And that's how ignorant I was. I didn't understand that when you left university, they would start charging you interest. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And no one had explained it to me properly. And I'm not really stupid person, but there was big areas of adult life. I was very ignorant of. Of course. You've not done it

before. And you need money to survive and you have to figure it out and not everyone has like, you know, parents bank falling their experience. I think it's interesting as well. Or parents that can. That can, exactly, or that can dig you out of a hole. And I think, you know, you've got these two characters who, yeah, they've grown up together and they love each other deeply. But their experiences of navigating the world are very different.

And they're parenting what they've been through is very different. So there's Elsie, whose parents are much more conservative and have kind of... And have kind of... Yeah, and have kind of let her go in a kind of, well, you've made your choice. now you kind of have to deal with it and then her best friend Juliet whose mother is much more kind of overbearing that

but also nurturing unboundary but they seem to have there's a closeness there's an intimacy that is there as they communicate it's just you are like that mum is a nightmare

it's interesting though because there's a moment in the book where you know Juliet makes a comment about Elsie's parents and they kind of both there's something in each other's lives that they slightly kind of glorify even they both you know have had their own issues And you see that when they're at the table

and there's all of these dynamics going on. But interesting, isn't it, how, you know, we're so in our own stuff. We assume that the grass is green else where actually everyone's going through it, whether it's in a... They're fucking up in some way or other. Yeah, it might just not be the way that you recognise. That's what, like, as someone who has small children and I remember a friend saying to me,

well, how do we make sure, how do we don't fuck them up? And I was like, you literally just will. You just will, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you just don't know how you just don't know how you're going to do it. That's the fun part. It will come out in therapy in 20 years' time. But I thought that was really interesting with, yeah, Elsie and Juliet, such different backgrounds and different home lives, rather than backgrounds maybe,

different support levels, but still suffering and struggling to find who they are. When this massive thing happens and Elsie loses her home, Julia is the person she can call. She's a person who probably doesn't really like calling anyone or needing to rely on people. You know, in terms of who she trusts, it's a very, very small group of people. people, but Juliet is the person that even though they haven't spoken for a few months, we don't quite know why at the beginning, that is the person. She does have at least one person. She said there was a lovely phrase, didn't she, at the beginning when she calls Juliet

and Juliet says, like, just breathe. And that was the first time she actually did, rather than being like, just breathe, I'm doing it, I'm doing the breathing, I'm remembering the YouTube video. It's like, when you have that trust, like, you know, we talked about, it's like shared history. There's such a difference when people do know your family. And there's not a, like, you don't have to say to someone, you're like, you know my brother's like and they're like yeah but there's no like oh my god judgment so like they've grown up with you and it's such an ease like it's so nice to be like you're not going to like question why that is because you've seen it since you were six as well I value those

relationships so much with my friends that I've had since I was like four years old like you say they've seen every stage they're there for the losses and at the funerals they're there for the love they're for the first whatever it is but they've seen it and they get it and yeah like you say there's no explaining required, there's no judgment. It's just I get it. Yeah. Yeah. It's nice not having to go over ground or like because family dynamics are weird and it takes a long time to notice them even like personally to have someone who you can just say, well, you know what they're like and they're like, yeah, yeah, yes. They're weird. I don't have to go into like how weird they are or how fucking mental this situation is.

You just get it. And also you're not asking me to change it. And I think you captured that with Elsie and Julia, it's so well that they have such a solid foundation between them, which is, I guess, interesting because Elsie's someone who doesn't seem to have foundation. She seems lost at the beginning. I couldn't help it because it was in Streatham and she was

working in a bar and I was trying to work at which bar. That actually was made up, to be honest. I had it in the hideaway, even though it wasn't a jazz club. I couldn't help but put it there because then I could see the long bar. I'm a North London girl. I had no clue. There were a few. You'll say you're South going. No, I was.

She was. She was. She's both. I bought her on. Oh, wow, you're a traitor. It's across the streams and I always swore and never would. Don't be sad because all of my North London friends have gone south. Okay, because it's the best place in the world.

I mean, there are a few places that actually are. There's like a vegan restaurant that I didn't actually change and that is. Then there's like a hint at another few places. Has the food changed? Because that's it. The vegan restaurant, I knew, I was like, but they never made this kind of sauce. I think the, I mean, the vegan place, hopefully it's still the same. I haven't been for a few years.

But there's a few places. that yeah I wanted it to feel kind of recognizable peck and right I was like you know there's certain places that I grew up you know doing you know all sorts of naughty things around I have very strong memories of all of these places and I wanted you to feel that I think South London writers are quite extra because there's a lot of us and we all are basing everything in south London writers yeah the next book is set in mostly in Jamaica so I've branched out a bit but um that's nice so you might have to do a research trip I know I'm literally like how can I get I I'm about 40,000 words in and I'm like, I think to finish up, I need to be in Jamaica.

I think so. I think so. But yeah, we'll see. So it's important to you that sense, because she's from Bristol, Elsie, originally. Which is where I went to uni as well. Oh, okay. And it's where I started Galdem. So I think I have like a lot, a deep love for, well, at least I didn't really discover all of the gorgeous artistic sides of it till the end because you're kind of in this horrible university bubble, which is horrible.

Yeah, we were the same with Brighton. Because we literally didn't know it was there for like a year. People always say it must be such a nice place to study. It's like we didn't have any money. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All the things that you think are nice, like restaurants. Yeah, you're like, we didn't go. There was no way.

So we were on campus for a year. Like, I literally, people would say, do you want to go to break? I was like, 10 minutes from the train or a bus. Oh, no. And we had like, like, to look at the pavilion. The honey club me? We're going to go to go swimming in the sea. We made up for it.

We made up for it. Yeah. Basically, it was last year I set up Galdem and because of that in my final year, I kind of met people that were actually in the place. So I kind of fell in love with it and learned a bit about the history and the creative community and, you know, blackness and all of these things. And I was like, I suppose, yeah, every place in the book has some relevance. I mean, she's Guyanese.

I'm half Jamaican half Guyanese. So, you know, there are bits of threads of but, you know, I'm definitely not her. Yeah. But was it important to you then that, like you said, that London kind of, I mean, obviously, I'm from London and that kind of like that big cityness of it. Like I think she, with Elsie, I got that sense that she wants that, but also it is a terrifying place to have no money. It is a terrifying place to be lost and alone. And you're not the only person to have no home.

Yeah, yeah. And the home is so important that the shutting the door, that this is my space, this is my corner of it. I thought it was really interesting as well. You were talking about what's happening to like some of the developments as well that she had a nice development. It got knocked down. Yeah. They would, you know, and I don't think, I don't know people outside and maybe know that's I don't know how much it's known that that is happening. Yeah, fine. Well, I mean, I've got one of my oldest friends actually,

Jazzy, we've been friends since we were for primary school. And her mum does a lot of campaigning against, you know, what they're doing in Depford. So, yeah, I think it was important to me to be able to map how things have changed, you know, whilst, like, I suppose, laughing sometimes at the contradictory ways in which we end up enjoying that because you can get a nice coffee, but also you don't need 10 places to have a nice coffee.

You know what I mean? Like, it's all of those things. But I think the pain of that, it was important. important to get across. I think when she goes to, when she goes to Brickson with Juliet, to kind of speak about her housing situation. I thought that was amazing. The reason I think it's so amazing, if you don't get those scenes in books. It's either because the author has no idea or they don't seem interesting, but I think they're so vital because otherwise everyone in books has money. But also, it was like, I didn't want to write an artist, a poet in a book who was like,

but like, who was just like super posh and super like already in it. And it. It's like, well, the reality is most people are not making shit loads of money from that art. Or avoiding the money side of it. Yeah. Because you want them to be an artist, the author just ignores the fact. So it's a world where everything's free. I just get to read a white poetry. 24-7 and it's great.

And you have to question that even the most successful people probably have a proper job. Yeah, yeah. Like, literally, yeah. Like, I mean, I had Galdem and I had a full-time job for a good first couple of years of doing that. Or at uni, I had two jobs on Galdom, and you know, like, you're all working and you're juggling. and you're figuring it all out. And so, yeah, I think it was important to paint, like, a realistic picture. The fact that the gig she gets, which I loved, I loved that whole scene.

I love the lead up to it. Yeah, yeah. Because that's my world. Cushions and juices, but spaces where everyone wants to be there, and it's so glorious. But I love that it was an unpaid gig. It's like, because that's what you get offered is experiences from people who like you and want to, and it's sharing.

Just start with no money. And it's kind of like that, you know, like, Galdon started as a thing with no money. It started in uni and I remember our first event. I think I got like 200 pound grant from like O2 used to do some, I think it was O2. And like most of that, you know, I managed to get a space for free and you buy some bottles of rum and you're selling it. You shouldn't really be selling the alcohol. But you know, it's like we had like Vanessa Casuale and all these like gorgeous poets and people before it. But we didn't have any money, you know.

But it was like everyone wanted to be in a space. And obviously you cannot operate like that forever. So you have to figure out ways to make it viable. La la la. But the reality is that like beautiful things do start and come from nothing. But yeah, then it's hard to be to be an artist and to be wanting to support that and also not getting paid for that. And you have bills to pay and you have things to do. So it's a constant renegotiation, isn't it? Yeah. And I thought you captured the other side of it because I think what a lot of people see is just the gig. So they see you do something and they're like, wow, what a great life. You're just out there doing your thing. And then at home, staring at blank screens, not having me money. I was talking about having repetitive strain injury in my fingers and my palm. It's like, yeah, there's all these other things. But Kelsey becomes this very fully formed character

that there's a dream that she wants that is achievable, that feels reachable. It's like, you know, she is a good poet and she is, like, has won awards and it's there. But like, how do you make that? Which I think so many people feel like, well, how do I go from here to here? It seems like I could just jump, but what and how, and especially...

And these things take years. I mean, career takes years to build proper, like, you know what I mean? That's what's so hard to explain, I think, to 21 year. It would have like, it doesn't happen. It just sort of, you keep doing unpaid gigs and suddenly someone says, do you want five pounds for that? And you're like, yes, oh my God. No, like, even now, like, I basically quit the thing I was known for doing and kind of doing quite well. And then now I've, like, started, you know, novel writing and film and TV.

And I'm like the newest one in the writer's room and I'm the baby. And it's like I'm starting from the beginning. There's no guarantee of, you know what I mean? Like, but I kind of also. enjoying being in that space where I don't have to have answers. In terms of that leap, does that suit your personality? Did you want fresh pastures and new challenges? I wouldn't say I get bored, but I definitely am excitable,

and I have lots of ideas for lots of things I want to try, and I never want to do the same thing forever. And I was 21 when I started doing Galdem. So it's like, and now I'm 30, it's like I'm never going to want to do the exact same thing forever or be the exact same person. Also, you know, the energy when you're starting something, and then it becomes like, you have to make it into something that can sustain jobs and, like, it has money.

And so then you kind of are taken away a bit from the creative side of it. And actually, you know, I'd worked in TV before. Like, I like the creative side of it being in the weeds of, like, storytelling. So, yeah, I had to make a jump. And I'd always wanted to get more into the film side of stuff. So it was a natural next step. But I think, yeah, you do obviously have a bit of fear when you're like, oh, but you live from Galda. And it's like, oh, but what if I was live the right?

The other stuff. And, yeah, I think I'm someone that will always want to shape shift a bit. Although I will say that the film and TV stuff does definitely feel like the thing I should be doing. It's hard, but it's very hard, isn't it? But it's all so hard. It's all so hard. To talk about working with the poet, Kai, Isaiah, Jamal. Yeah, they're fab.

So they wrote the poetry in the book. Yeah. Oh, really brilliant poetry. Liv, I just assumed it was yours. No. I had a moment. I just say in the first day of it. I'm so sorry. I missed that.

I had a moment. Halfway through it, I thought, oh my God. She written this book and the poetry. Because usually what would happen is you'd go, great novel, and they put some of their own poems in there. Because as soon as she's... I was a good friend. Yeah, and like, and to be honest,

when I imagined Elsie's voice, tone of voice, style of poetry, I mean, we're both queer, we're both from South London. Like, Kai's just a phenomenal, gorgeous human being. I sent Kai the book and I was like, I've got these gaps for poems, read it, let me know what you think, no pressure. And they loved it. And we kind of like went back and forth on voice notes. And I was like, well, I want these details and this, like this.

And they'd, you know, I mean, a couple of them, like the Pepper Pot poem, actually I had no notes on. The Rosewater one, we kind of went back and forth on a bit with, like, details that spoke specifically to the book and the characters. But it was a really natural kind of pairing. And I think, I mean, so much of my life and my creative life has been built on collaboration. And actually it felt like, yeah, just Kai was the absolute perfect person to nail the poems. You know, so much so that at the launch, Pepper Pot is such a special Guyanese dish.

Kite is not Guyanese, but at the launch, like my mum and everyone was just sobbing, my mud, because it just really captured what that thing means to us. they just got it I mean they're fabulous, gorgeous, brilliant and so it was really it couldn't have been anyone else so if it wasn't Kaya I don't know what I would have done to be

I think that's amazing that you Put some sticks and Bob Dylan in it Bit like writing You know what I mean Roses are right It would just be terrible I think that's amazing that you let that happen

because I think there's a lot of writers that wouldn't that would have attempted it or would have tried to hide it more were they would have assumed they could. Obviously I gave it a go and I think I had a bit of a framework from that

but no, like there's nothing like a true poem. Yeah, and that's what I love that when we get Elsie's poetry you see a really different side. Like you really go, oh, that's the heart that we're not seeing because she's quite brittle and protected. So when you read those poems you're like, oh, there is a very soft, vulnerable person. And it was such a lovely combination.

I was really interested because with Julia and the friendship, there's this sense that Juliet has read a half sort of of an early poem. And at the beginning we don't know what she has read. And there is a potential in all kinds of creativity, but if you write about your life or your work is about your life, people in your life are affected about it negatively and positively. Well, this is a really interesting conversation. I wrote about this a little bit in my sub-stack

because there are lots of conversations circling online about some books. Anyway, and some characters potentially being borrowed slash stolen from other people's lives. And I think actually it raised an interesting question about we as fiction writers or filmmakers or whatever. How do you kind of like respect and honour

the people who will naturally show up in your work? What conversations should you have? And how do you do that in a way that feels? And I think even for me with this next book, it's fiction, right? But it's very much farther daughter road trip going on this kind of epic journey. My dad's no longer here to consent to like, I suppose, the inspiration that I am taking from those characters.

So how do you make sense of all of that? I think they are like valid questions because, yeah, you definitely can't just take someone's whole, you know, character and personality and life in a way that's very clearly identifiable. Or even if it was just your emotional attachment to them, you are still saying things about them publicly. Did you see there was a writer called Sophia Money Coots? Oh, Money Coots. I know. Hang on a sec. She's very lovely person.

That's her real name. I'm Sarah Cash Barkley. I think it's the person who wrote the book Crazy Rich Asians wrote another book and they had a character in it literally called something like Emily Money Coops. And it's absolutely her. Like it's her. And obviously instantly people started being like contacting her.

You were in this book and it's like a journalist character. Right, right, right. It's her. And again, I found it really interesting because a lot of her friends were like sub-sacking and saying like whatever you feel about someone with that name, you have taken like their entire, like not even, not even an email to say, yeah. And I was like, God, it is to not even hide it as a writer, not into be like, okay, I met someone and I was inspired. Inspiration versus appropriation or stealing.

Yeah, I was like, that's her. And again, it's very unusual name, obviously. It's not like an assassination, but it's also not entirely favourable. Well, comedy is a step even further than that way because famous people, people that you're all, know, so much the subject of comedy, went to this film premiere. It's Robbie Williams, Film Premier. Alex Brooke was there from Last Leg, and I said to him, do you know Robbie? And he said, oh, actually, I did a joke about him on the last leg, and he DM me after the show.

Oh, gosh. So you're watching TV, and he said it wasn't that bad. He said, oh, it's the biggest disappointment since Rood Box. And then Robbie sent him a message, but he was nice, and then he did Socorate and they became friends. And basically, this is how Robbie Williams befriends his enemies. Yes, exactly. But you think, because we do it to, like, I've got a Gwyneth Paltrow bit in my show, and it's not horrifically horrible. She hasn't.

But when you say that thing is like, when she does. You do say someone's exact name. I'm talking about her when she skied into that guy. That's something that happened in her life. And not once have I thought, how would she feel? If she's watching Live the Apollo. If she's come to Bays in Stoke for a nice night out. But do you think comedy's different to writing?

That's what I, is, does comedy have. A celebrity. I think you get carried away with what we do. We forget. But a writer in a book doesn't need the name to be the same. Or for the description to be exactly the same. Because it's all, like, it's made up, right? It's already fictionalised.

It's imagination. You can disguise it. So you have a disclaimer. But I also think you spend two years writing something and you forget where things started from. Yeah, because you're honing a joke and you're not thinking about it. Have you ever done this? I mean, because at the beginning it was just easier to just call them the person they were based on. Yeah, yeah.

And then later on you go, okay, let's take way away from that. Control left. Control. Change name, find and replace. Yeah. Something about writing about, as I've had to do, dead people and dead dads. The one thing you do own is your relationship. Yeah, and it's your grief story as well as theirs.

Your perspective, this is my relationship. For sure, for sure, for sure. And we're in it, right? You're in it. Like, you know, it was very much felt like me and my dad against the world, like, in this moment. And we were mirroring. We were in it together. So I think I absolutely do have the right to tell this father-daughter story.

I still think I have to keep thinking, okay, is this in any way, exposed to it? Like, am I honouring? And I kind of know my heart and I know that I am. And I know that there were like elements in Rosewater. It's not like any character specifically a person. But there's like elements or like details, I suppose. Like my nan helped me go over the grandma's dialect because she's Guyanese and I didn't want it to be like embarrassingly.

But I've not been to Guyana. I was like, you can, is this saying actually correct? And I suppose like that that kind of feels like the right. level of inspiration. Yeah, honouring the inspiration. Exactly. Rather than just completely... Yeah, stealing.

Stealing completely. Or being so restrictive that you can't write fiction. Yeah, because that's... Oh my God, exactly. There has to be a freedom of going, the story needs this. Exactly. Yeah. It's a beautiful queer love story as well.

And that's, again, like, something that has... You know, we haven't had a lot of space before. I was wondering, were there works that inspired you? Interesting. Like, in terms of specific... stories, I guess. Well, yeah, actually, there's a, there's a Jamaican author called Nicole Denison and I talk about her

a lot and, like, we're friends now, which is really nice, actually. She DM'd you after you made a joke. She was like, it's cool, we can be buddies. She's Jamaican and she's a lesbian and she lives in New York and she's just like, she's fucking brilliant and so smart, and she also teaches writing, and

she wrote this book called Here Comes Sun, which I picked up not knowing anything about and actually it was a, it's not a love story, but it's like an interweaving of different generations of Jamaican women. And I mean, with this, I definitely look at different generations of queer, black, British women. And what does that look like? I mean, Grandma.

Yes, the character of Maggie as well. Yeah. And they're all very differently placed. And their experience of moving through the world feels very different. The grandma says, you know, like, well, for me, yeah, I had my friend, but we didn't talk about, like, it wasn't the same. Like, you know, you just had the friend that was always there. And when you talk to people who have kind of elderly, like, queer relatives, it's that

sort of thing where you just thought it was the best friend. Yeah. Oh, you called them auntie or whatever. So I think definitely, like, I took inspiration from her, and there is a, she's queer and there is a, you know, kind of queer love or queer story that kind of threads through that. And same with her second book, Patsy as well. So she's definitely someone that I would say has inspired me. But I also think with this, like, the energy of like normal people, like, I suppose of like, you know, two people who, like come from quite different backgrounds and also, like, really struggled to say what it is that they want and feel. There's, like, a lot of missed opportunity in that book. So, like, I think energy intention-wise, I would say that was also super inspiring. I mean, there's also Master of None, there's the series, the moments in love series that they did, which is like not actually like Master of None at all, which was Lena Waith and Naomiaki. And they play like a queer, black lesbian couple. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's very slow TV, very beautiful TV. And that was the first time, really, that I've ever seen that on TV. And I've watched it probably five times because, I mean, they're navigating different things. You know, they're married and they're like looking at having children and, you know, but you get all these moments of tenderness, them dancing in the kitchen. Them like, I don't know, infidelity, all of just the messiness of what it is to be in a relationship. That's definitely also something that has stuck out for me. I mean, you've got Audrey Lord and all of these, you know, incredible poets.

I suppose in terms of like contemporary representation of queer girl, I don't, I think. Roxanne Gay gets a shout to her. Oh, I love Roxanne Gay. And I interviewed her and that was like the best day of my life. I love her work. And difficult women, her collection of short stories is just so brilliant.

And yeah, I mean, she's incredible. So yeah, she's definitely inspirations. But I think, like, I want more. I want more of it on TV, especially on film. I want more representation. I want it to be less like, you know, you're relegated to the shadows. Or less niche. Or to the, like, sisters, gay or something.

I thought they do that a lot. There's a fun film called The Feels which is like a lesbian couple going on a what do you call it like hen? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And like one of them discovers that the others never had an orgasm and the whole thing is about sex

and all of the rest of it. And it's like it's not a groundbreaking film but it's like an enjoyable warm kind of like... It's not great to not have it... Yeah, just to be like a fun story. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Intense. We need the story to be told.

Exactly. Allow to have a fun story. Exactly. I think we need all of that for sure. the film that I'm working on at the moment is like set in the 90s and it's very, I suppose like, sewing the seeds of like Maggie in that character in that world is kind of what I'm getting into,

which is exciting. Yeah, I thought the Maggie character is really interesting. So she's older, she's queer and she's coming, as you said, from a completely different time period that Elsie has. And I really enjoyed how much, like, you could always hear Maggie's eye rolls sometimes of like of what Elsie's struggling with. And like, like, in a really loving way, though,

and I'm like, oh, like, we didn't have this. She's a safe adult in the world. And those people are important. Yeah. She doesn't dismiss her, but equally when Elsie's moaning about something, you can see Maggie be like, you know, fucking hard it is. Like, she's got these little flyers and that's how you found out pieces of paper. You couldn't, like, message someone and just find other gay people.

It was just like not that world at all. I thought that was so interesting. There's so much. I mean, I feel like I can't talk about all of the things that I'm doing right now, but there's, like, there's, I will just say, yeah, that was me wanting to kind of sow the seed of getting, deeper into that and I'm working on something that is so fun and so interesting and so dynamic and that really gets into that. But yeah, I think it was important for me for her to have that character, but also for me

to just like actually acknowledge honour in some way, all of these black lesbians. Yeah, came before. Came before who were here, they're not dead. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it wasn't another ago. Who are, like some of whom I've become really good friends with who are just interesting. Also fun, jokes, dynamic, sexy, you know what I mean? They're not, and I wanted Maggie not to just be the wise old out that was like, oh, and then child, I would teach you this.

I wanted her to also be, yeah, dating and having fun and like someone you could have a drink and have a laugh with and play darts with or whatever, pull with. And I wrote like a little spin-off story for We Present about Maggie and like her reconnecting with like a love interest. And I think people really connected with Maggie and that's why they asked me to do the Maggie story. as well. People really enjoy her. Something I thought was so amazing and I was so glad you included in your book was not only a representation of camming and someone who comes to earn money, but also the

responses and the amount of sort of negative responses based on usually sort of just not knowing about something or the kind of judgment of people who make money in the sex industry. And this is a bit of a pre-only fans kind of like, you know, culture shift moment, I suppose. But yeah, it was important. And again, actually, I had a really good friend that was, you know, probably maybe similarish positional space to Juliet. And did Camming. And I spoke to her a little bit about it before I wrote. You know, you want to handle everything with care.

Yeah. When it's not you. But that's also the beauty of fiction is that you don't just want to write you. Yeah, yeah, you don't have to just talk about your own. That's kind of the point of having an imagination and trying to get into it. It makes for such an interesting book when people are there. about the world because lots of people don't have a friend who does Camming or they might not know that one of their friends. My mum was like I've been introduced to a whole new thing. She was like, wow,

like literally, there's so much. And I just thought that's amazing and lovely. And actually, I would like to think in a way that you pick up this book and you read it and you get a little nugget of what it might have felt to be queer in that time. There's a night, you know, this erotic kind of queer reading night run by Prim Black. My friend runs this thing. It's real and it's beautiful and it's amazing and she runs this queer black bookshop. It's like, well, you pick that up and you read it and you get a sense or they're listening to Ravina. Ravina is a queer musician, you know what I mean? Like you get a sense. Joyce Rice, I think she listens to. Joyce Rice was on the very first ever cover of Galdem's print magazine. So like it's like there's little nuggets of the world at the time.

There's also like, you know, she's got this print because she obviously wouldn't be able to afford a big piece of art. She's got this print from an artist called Scholar who like, I love Scholar's work. she's incredible, she's amazing young queer artist here. I want you to get into it and be like, oh, interesting. What is that personal or who is that thing? Or what does that look and feel like? Books been incredibly successful. I mean, John Legends, publishing company published it in America.

In the US. Yeah, yeah. We did like, I did a little American tour and I've thought I'd be doing an American tour of my black, British lesbian book. There's an interview with you and John Legend on YouTube. Like, there's just like, you're jumping like, hey, live. Like that's, and I just wondered like when when you started writing it, obviously, you know, as writers, when you start writing it's such a different to like where it has gone.

Like how has it been watching this book kind of move out of your hands and have this success? Amazing. It's beautiful. I think it's also nice to do this and have a conversation about it again actually to get to step back into that space and be like, oh, I'm something from my brain is now in other people's hearts and homes and lives and that's really special. I mean, you don't, you just hope, because with fiction, you write the whole thing, right? And then you'd send it out and you're like, well, I fucking wrote 80,000 words or something. So I hope someone wants it, but you don't know. It landed really well with, you know, with Charmaine and Dialogue books here. And I'm so super happy and she was kind of like the person. She's amazing.

I would want her to. I've known her for a long time. And the worst amount of office on table, but it was like, I'm obviously going to work with you. Because she gets it and she knows me and she pushes me to be better. and, you know, she's brilliant. But no, it feels amazing. So we should say that Charmaine Lovegrove, who founded Dialogue Books and has just left dialogue books.

In case people don't know who we're talking about. She's probably one of the most senior kind of black women in the UK publishing thing. She's a truly cool woman. I love her. And she's, you know, supported me from, she kind of encouraged me to go after I left Galham to just get back into studying. And I started doing an MA in Black British writing. And she just continuously, she take me to events when I was really kind of young and by me.

But like, she just was a really lovely. A good mentor. Force. Like amazing. I remember she came to our little Galdam office, which was like a car parking space with like champagne and scones and stuff, just like always gassing you up, you know? We're in a space in this space.

But no, it was really beautiful. And I wouldn't have even thought or assumed that, you know, it would be something that, you know, John and his company would also pick up. It was their first book in their input. Yeah. That feels like a special place to be. It's very special.

I did this tour, went to America. We did an event together. It was really like lovely. Did an event with John Legend? Yeah, we did. We did one in LA and it was like really, obviously the poshest, you know, like, book event I've ever been to. You know, he has his own wine company. There was all of this. They just were really supportive and really lovely. And like, you know, talking to him and like the rest of his team about it, I also had an amazing editor who works with them and Zando Books, who was fantastic. She was actually British, but she lives and works in New York. So I think that also kind of helped.

But they didn't want me to change anything. Oh, yeah, that was a good sister back to us. They wouldn't want to change any London references. No. Like it remained, obviously, you know, you change some grammar and stuff. But like nothing really of the core. And they worked in tandem, which was really nice. But yeah, you don't assume that, you know, you're being New York with some New York gullies or L.A. gullies.

And they'll be like, I love your book. And it's like so, it feels so about an experience here. Yeah, it's like so strutum and, you know, it's that thing, which great writing does, isn't it? Like the specificity of it becomes universal. I think that's the beauty in, in, I think. think there's so much power in that specific kind of storytelling. Like it's human and it's a feeling and it's about love. Yeah.

And it's about loss and it's about life and making sense of, you know, where you fit into the world. Those are universal feelings, whether you're a straight white man or a queer black woman. I mean, there are layers, right? So there's things that are going to resonate more if your experience is more closely aligned with mine. But I think there should be themes that everyone is able to pick up and say, yeah. How did you find writing sex scenes? Because you write very good sex scenes. Did you?

Yeah. I feel like I'm getting worse. I don't know. It was just like, I was obviously really sad and really horny when I wrote the book. So it was like easy. You know, she masturbates and writes. I masturbate and writes. So it was kind of quite.

Yeah. They were good sex scenes. There was nothing awkward about them. Yeah, I'm not very embarrassed reading sex scenes. Just because I'm not very sexy. You are sexy. Not at this phase in my life. I remember sexiness, but I'm not there now.

We're in a different planet in the motion. Yeah, yeah. And so, um, Sometimes, and I think that's what I can sense is a writer thinking they have to write sex. So the fact that you enjoyed writing them makes so much. No, and you know what for me, I think, like, just as, you know, all of these other facets of her character tell you where she is mentally, the point of the sex is not just to have sex. It's that the sex she has with Juliet, where, like, it feels a bit more reciprocal and it's less of her taking control and being the powerful one, whatever, is very different to maybe how she'll have sex with. I mean, maybe with B, even it's a bit different, but, like, with V.

Leomi, it's very different because it's like, you know, and that's part of how she feels powerful and in control, right? It's like her ability to do that. There's a moment when she's on a date and she's drunk and she's obviously like, she's trying to do that thing. But she's in a terrible emotional state. And the girl's kind of like, this is not cute. Yeah. But it's like being able to map. Well, even at the beginning, the bay lifts at the door, bees in her bed.

Yeah. And it's like, this is so stressful the only way I can distract myself as sex. Like that's a psychological event that we're seeing rather than. Yeah. Yeah, what it's offering to Elsie, what it offers that power and that control and that distraction. Like, yeah, so it never felt like. And with Leone, like, it was so funny, but there's that thing about wanting to shut her up. Yeah.

Oh, that was so funny. When you don't really like them or what they're about. I don't need that. Where's this story going? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Literally like, okay, let's just, you know. Yeah, I think, I think, yeah, exactly. It was each time you're kind of, you're taking something else from where she's at.

And that was, that was the key. And I think maybe that's what helped it to not feel like sex scene in here. And it feels a bit awkward because it just felt like, okay, this is where we're at. And like the moment when she watches, I loved writing that moment when she's watching Juliet coming. And it's like, things are swirling in her mind. And it's like, oh. I haven't seen you like that. Yeah.

And then the moment when she's trying, coming with her and it's like, you know, all of these things, it tells you so much about where she's at, you know. So I enjoyed it a lot. Yeah. It's really interesting for me because I've. I feel like young people's... This is where we go, full grown. You're doing so well with your sexy foot.

The rules have just changed so much. I couldn't do it. I agree with you. I know what you mean. Yeah, yeah. And so... Well, look, there's a bloody strap on the floor. Do you know what?

I only just noticed that. It's not so much strap. I just, just thought it was like, what's in the box? No, it's the fluidity of everything was monogamy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All of our culture. Yeah, every. Love story was monogamy.

I mean, there might have been... And cis-hete monogamy, that was the goal. Cis-hap monogamy, penetrative sex, as that's the only way to lose your virginity. That is what losing your virginity is. The definitions, and there has been just such a bulldozing of those... So to have someone, a character, who's been sleeping with another character for a year,

but they're not in a bracket's relationship. And then, I mean, because she's got her man, and she's like, I would never actually be... Which, again, it's interesting because it's like, the relationship to queerness can be complicated. She's obviously quit. She's enjoying this thing that they've got going on. But like she would, she's, you know, in a...

She's socially straight. Socially straight. And it's like, well, no. And, you know, obviously she gets pregnant. And that's kind of the life path that she chooses to go down. Because maybe she's happy. Maybe it's also the thing that she thinks that she has to do again. It's like, you know, you rarely get an opportunity to be with lots of different kinds of queer women in one space.

Yeah, that's so true. Yeah. To me, again, interesting to explore. No, they're not all. straightforward. Yeah, Leonie is a bit annoying and a bit like she chats a lot and you know, they're all who they are and I think, yeah, it was fun. Well, it's like you're saying about like allowing these voices to just be. Yeah. So it's like, Leonia's there being annoying and but is also queer, but that's not what the story. It's not like, well, now we need to discuss

Leonie's queerness. It's like, no, no, she's just another character in the story. And I think that's what, yeah, this book is doing is like, you said, just allowing those voices to be there without being, everyone being like, but what does it mean that you're queer? Like, that's disgusting, like that's not what we're doing. That's not even else. That's not Elsie. She's the main character. I think, and I think when I was doing like a bit of press for the book, like that's, you know, a lot of the queer girls that were interview me about it.

We're just saying like, yeah, actually, so nice for it to not be about having this big coming out moment. Well, Liv, I'm so excited to read the next book. Yeah, me too. I need to finish it. Your many brilliant projects. Thank you. Brilliant. And just congratulations on it.

And being brave and, you know, jump in. Yeah, making a jump in. Yeah. Making a jump. as well. I know it's a bit sick. I was tired by 27, guys. I was fucking exhausting.

And now you've rested and you're ready to start again. Don't think about it. Just fly. 30s needs to be fun. 20s was too serious, I think. Enjoy yourself for 30s because 40s get shit. Do you know? Only if you have children.

Yeah, yeah. I would like to do that, but I don't know when. I'd enjoy yourself for a bit. For a bit, yeah. I was thinking, oh, I'll do it soon. Now I'm like, well, I do it. No. No, wait.

Give yourself a bit. more time, a bit more enjoyment. I'll wait a couple years. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was controversially said, the more you've enjoyed yourself, the harder it is we're losing. Oh, yeah, yeah.

I don't know what to do? No, there's no right time. Anyway, thank you for coming to visit us. They're never so nice. Life lessons. Yeah, life lessons. Thank you. Thank you for listening to the Weirdo's Book Club.

Sarah is also on tour. If you like listening to her, imagine what it's like seeing her and hearing her voice come up for her face. You can see her new show. I am a strange gloop, and it's on sale now from sales. Sarah Pasco.com.com. You can find out all about the upcoming books we're going to be discussing on our Instagram at Sarah and Carriads Weirdo's Book Club. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading

with you. We like reading with you.