Sara & Cariad's Weirdos Book Club - Small Things Like These and So Late in the Day by Claire Keegan

Episode Date: May 30, 2024

This week's book guests are Small Things Like These and So Late in the Day by Claire Keegan.Sara and Cariad discuss the different works of Claire Keegan, ADHD, the island of Ireland, the C word, music with words and Ian McKellen. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you!Trigger Warning: In this episode we discuss the Magdalene Laundries.Small Things Like These by Claire Keegan is available to buy here or on Apple Books here.So Late in the Day by Claire Keegan is available to buy here or on Apple Books here.Sara’s debut novel Weirdo is published by Faber & Faber and is available to buy here.Cariad’s book You Are Not Alone is published by Bloomsbury and is available to buy here.Follow Sara & Cariad’s Weirdos Book Club on Instagram @saraandcariadsweirdosbookclub and Twitter @weirdosbookclub Recorded and edited by Aniya Das for Plosive.Artwork by Welcome Studio.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I'm Sarah Pasco. Hello, I'm Carriad Lloyd. And we're weird about books. We love to read. We read too much. We talk too much. About the too much that we've read. Which is why we've created the Weirdo's Book Club.

Join us. A space for the lonely outsider to feel accepted and appreciated. A place for the person who'd love to be in a real book club, but doesn't like wine or nibbles. Or being around other people. Is that you? Join us. Check out our Instagram at Sarah and Carriads Weirdo's Book Club for the upcoming books we're going to be discussing. You can read along and share your opinions.

Or just skulk around in your raincoat like the weirdo you are. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you. This week's book guest is Small Things Like These and So Late in the Day by Claire Keegan. What's it about? Well, small things like these is about Bill Furlong, a coal man living in an Irish town and his life-changing decisions he makes one snowy Christmas. So late in the day is about one man's simmering anger at the women in his life.

What qualifies them for the weirdos book club? Well, it's an especially one-off episode because for the first time, we have accidentally read different books. In this episode, we discuss the different works of Claire Keegan. ADHD. The Island of Ireland. The Sea Word.

Music with Words. And Ian McKellen. Trigger warning, in this episode, we discuss the Magdalene Laundries. And we do use the C word in this episode in case you have any younger listeners who should definitely not hear that. It's happened. Disaster struck. The book podcast.

A book, a book, faux par has occurred. A book tastrophe. A book tastrophe. Nice. Today we are talking about the author, Claire Keegan. But what book are we talking about?

Well, look, we, through tracing back, messages, emails, WhatsApps have talked for a long time about doing a Claire Keegan book. Oh, we like Claire Keegan. She's don't, yeah, she looks good, Claire Keegan. That's a small book, isn't it? A small Irish book.

Herty is a really good writer. Yeah, she's like, oh, nice and like, Carad wants it, nice, light book. Today we get the books out of our bag to start the podcast. We're talking about different books. I am talking about the Book of Prize nominated small things like these. And I'm talking about that even smaller. So late in the day, not yet won a prize, but I'm sure it will.

They're both very similar. They're both by Claire Keegan. They're both light, thin Irish books. Short stories. And so when we were referring to each other, oh yeah, the thin Irish one, Claire Keegan. I was getting defensive. Like, Carriette, I sent you a picture of this book saying what it was, And then when we've gone back through our photos,

I sent her a picture of it from the side to show how thin it was. To show how this episode would not be one of the sort of backbreaking toils of labour to get the reading done. I did think when you were like, oh, it's so thin. I was like, oh, it's like normal level, like a light book. A bit like Mrs. Caliban or something. Yeah, or Annie and I was like, yeah, it's thin, Sarah. It's not like. But now I see so late in the day is tiny.

Well, when I finished it in 20 minutes, I thought, oh gosh, the podcast will be longer than the, it takes to read the, That's a great start if we've both read it. And I thought this is, we've gone too far. We've gone too skinny with their skinny reads. And then you've turned up with a sort of more reasonably sized book. Yeah, mine is like 110, 116, I think, pages, something like that. So what's so lovely is that I just love to hear about this book you. Well, let me tell you, Sarah.

Can you? Should I tell you about Claire Keegan's small things at least? You really like reading it without my interjections and opinions and arguments. So you go, this is much cleaner. Oh, this is like the old days. Have you read this there? No, I just tell you about it. I'm not the end of it.

Small things like these. Obviously, as you say, booker everywhere. Shortlisted in 2022. All on the best selling lists. And the reason I said we should do this Claire Keegan book is because five different people separately recommended it to me. They're like, oh, you've got to read. Who are these people? How do you know five people?

Why are you hanging out with these people? I know, they're not you. Separate writers. Two ladies in my writers retreat. and then another person at Radio 4 thing I did. Shout out to Megan and Susan, who I think both recommended this. Are they both Irish? They're both like, but one is from Northern Ireland.

One is from Derry and one is from Cork. So I've been schooled heavily in using phrases like, they're from Ireland and then being like, yes. No, that's not how it works. Anyway, another writer recommended to me, everyone was like, oh, God, small things like these. I said to you, we should read that Claire Keegan, small things like these. And you said, oh, yeah, yeah, it's Faber. I've got a copy. But in my defense, I heard small things like this book.

Like this book. So late in the day. Is it not a small thing like this? It's not. And yours even says on it, author of small things like these. So when I look at it, they're the words I absorb. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

They're very similar looking as well. They've gone for that, like, author theme that they do, like Eleanor Ferrante, where everything has to match. Yeah, but I guess if you love Claire Keegan's first book, you want to buy it. The next one. Have you got a spare 20 minutes and you've just finished one in an hour? You'll love this. think her 100 page one was too long. Why don't you go for the 47 page one? She's an incredible,

right, like award-wimming, hugely incredible, like, the quote on the fight is mantel. Yes, she's got a mantel. So it's quite built up before you started. Yeah, it was. So when you did start, were you like, wow, this is exactly right. No, well, we've messaged about this, didn't they? Because I read this directly after butter, which we'll be covering in a few weeks, I believe. I've read bur. Le bea. Le bea. Oh, no, I've read margarine. It's one of those, it reminds me a bit of Aniano in that the way she writes, perhaps you can tell me if it's very... Spare? Spare. Sparse. Very sparse. So it took me a while to get into it. Where is she Irish? She's Irish, although she did... Obviously, I went on quite the deep time.

She went to study in New Orleans when she was 17. Wow. And because she was like... Into jazz? My dad went to New Orleans, so I just assumed that's why people go. No, I think she was like done with Ireland and... She's the youngest of six. Wow. which I think is also interesting. So observing like five bigger siblings of you.

And then, yeah, and then she was sort of teaching for ages. And then Antarctica came out, which I think having read the synopsis, I think you would also enjoy. It's again, similar, small story, big thing happened, you know, like it's just this woman waiting for her date

to get back to the flat, I think. That's that whole story. Yeah. And then something happens. And then, yeah, Antarctica was a huge success. And then she's written, yeah, small stories after that. They've just like won countless awards. And I found a tweet from Stephen King,

just saying how incredible this whole thing is like this is. This book is set at Christmas in 1985, in Irish town, Irish town. Okay. And it's about Bill Furlong, who is a coal and timber merchant, and it's kind of like you're in his head. And he's sort of, it's like great guy, like a lovely dad. But it's actually sort of sneakily about the Magdalene Laundries.

Oh. Yes. So it's light but weighty. And it reminded me the thing that happens to me with light books where I'm like, oh, they can still be about really heavy things, even though you're like, it's so easy to read. So I picked up like, oh, yeah, everyone says it's great. Oh, fuck. Madeline Laundries, fuck, you know. So if you don't know what the Magdalene Laundries are or were properly. Prepare for your life to get worse when you find out what about them. From 1922 until 1996, thousands of girls and women were held prisoner in Magdalene Laundries and Ireland. They were worked. workhouses, or the commercial and profit-based laundries run and funded by the Catholic Church and the state. So you were sent in there if you got pregnant or you had a mental disability or, you know, and they would take babies away from the women and then they would keep the women trapped. It's fucking awful. No, they weren't listened to. They weren't free.

And in the early 1990s, 155 unmarked graves were discovered on the land of a convent in Dublin, which is what triggered the public scandal. and people becoming aware. So this book is about that, really, even though she's quoted as saying, oh, it's not about that, but it's like that's the background. So I thought we were going to have a heavy chat

about the magnet laundries, but I don't think we are. There is a similarity. So this book is set in the summer. Oh, she's her winter book. It's set in a summer, and it's an office worker. It's a man and it's inside his head,

but it's about misogyny. Yeah, she said. And it was originally called, Misogyny. Oh. When it was published, first of all, it's a short story. I read a good anecdote about this book, your one, so late in the day, that she teaches a lot of writing classes. Yeah.

And in one class, she was using an example of how you can have drama without dramatic events. Yeah. And she wrote up this plot. And she was like, look, you know, imagine a man working in his office, checking his watch. Like, these are not dramatic events, but we can make to drama intention. Yes. And a student came up to at the end and was like, is that a book? Are you going to write that?

Yeah. And she said, I could tell the student was going to. So I said, yes, it is, I'm writing it. So she got to keep it. Yeah. And I think it might have been an essay first in the New Yorker, that one. I think so. And another of our favourite authors, who we are covering soon, George Saunders,

claims that Kagan is one of the greatest fiction writers in the world. And he chose this one, misogyny, as his favorite New Yorker story. Yeah, that's the quote that's on the back of this one. Yeah. So mine is about a man, Christmas time. Looking after his kids, kind of going around delivering cold, but then he comes across a girl. And he, at the Madeline Laundries,

well, as he doesn't know, it's Madeline Laundry. He's just at the convent, she does not look good. And he kind of leaves her. It's about what happens after you've seen that. And what do you do? And how the community around him is very like, don't upset the water because the nuns control everything. Yeah.

So he has like four daughters or five daughters. and they're all trying to get into the good conference school. And it's very gentle. It doesn't, like, she doesn't in any way, she's not in any way showing you, oh, this is what they were doing at anything at all. It's like he has a conversation with this guy, he's a conversation with a nun. He walks away and then he starts thinking,

actually what's going on there moment? Well, I listened to a really, really amazing, interesting podcast about a family who lived near a Magdalene Laundrie who were helping people escape. Oh, wow. Because obviously for some people in community, they would have been either, you know, completely naive or blinkers on, busy, what can we do?

This book is about, yeah. And there was a, yeah, a family who really bravely collected funds, because there's no point getting people released if there's no lifetime, and then let them live in their house for an amount of time and then basically smuggling, people smuggling them out to safety. And that would have been shocking at the time. Yeah. Because these women were considered fallen, but I think they've got a wards, a sense now from the government because of this really, really brave,

thing that they did and obviously the right. It's taken the government a long time to even admit what's going on and I was listening to a radio program literally yesterday about this woman whose partner died. She's trying to find his birth mother. He was adopted. It was a magdalen laundry situation and they're still sending redacted documents saying we can't tell you you won't tell you like in 2024. So there's still a lot of pain and trauma. So even the law is unclear on what you're allowed to know about yourself. There's still covering, there's still stuff that's being covered up. They're still, you know,

and I think that's what this book, small things like these, is dealing with, it's like the shame and the trauma of a community that knew, the tiny things that seem like not very much. So seeing, seeing a girl who clearly isn't looked after,

but is talking to you and is fine, and then you drive off. And isn't your responsibility? Isn't your responsibility? And a nun comes out and says, oh, she's mad, don't worry about her. She'd go and get back inside.

She's a, you know, a willful girl. And you go, oh, sorry, here's your Cole. And you drive away and you go, oh, and his mother, should have gone into a mother baby home but she didn't because someone

took pity on her and took her in and he was raised in this nice house so he's like what would have happened so he has this thing of like that could have been my mum and it starts ticking and he's heard of like oh shit but he's got this life and these children

and the nuns control everything but she's quoted as saying it's not about the Magdal Laundries I think it's a story about a man who has loved in his youth and can't resist offering the same type of love to somebody else So I think she's doing that very brilliant writer thing of not telling you these were awful but just showing you this is what it was like. It's not set there.

It's set with someone who wasn't there. Yes, exactly. And apparently there's been a bit criticism about that as well. It's like it's about Magdalene Nordries. It's done very, very well. But it's a man's point of view who wasn't there. But that's what she was saying is I wasn't trying to do. Exactly.

And I think that's her defending that because I thought, because I came to it thinking, oh yeah, or maybe, you know. But then it's interesting. isn't it? Because that story of a woman in the Madeleine Audrey's obviously is a deeply traumatic story and obviously should be told. But there's also a very interesting story to be told about the people like you said. Well, how does it happen? There are lots and lots of stories about, you know, concentration camps in the world. And then there's a film about a family living next door. My mum watched it and told me about it the other day. Exactly. And so because there are other stories. Because one of the questions you have is, but what about the German people? What did they know? This is, they live next door to Auschwitz. And the husband was very high up. and the Nazis and she like raised her kids next to yeah the count and they could just they were

playing outside and they just could hear screaming a whole time and then the husband had to go you know and is this a true story this is a true story and he ended up being um you know tried after the war but she didn't she was just next to it with her kids and that is a it is a story all of those angles do matter yeah and she was I read again another quote from her saying like she'd quite like to write the point of view of a woman but she doesn't think she has a trod like is in like the story comes, the story is what it is. Yeah. Like, so she was like, maybe one day I will.

But, and she has another, again, she's been lots of short stories, Antarctica, Foster, the Forest Daughter that are all hugely successful. Maybe if you write short stories, you've got more time to write loads. Maybe, yeah. This is, small things like these, just been turned into a film

as well. Yeah. How long's that? It's 20 minutes, I think. But yeah, she had a nice quote saying, she said, oh, then I had to be a dull civil servant working in Dublin, going home on the bus. That's your book. Misogynist is who I mean. It would be nice to be female, even just to describe putting on a pair of tights or getting

into a pair of heels might be a nice change. But if the book turns out to be a man, basically, and there's no women in the house, that is a book I will write. I don't know that you really do get to choose. Yeah. That's interesting. Is the line, small things like these, the last line of the book? No, I don't think so late in the day is the last line of this book.

So late in the day, you understand at the end of the last page why it's called so late in the day. Oh, okay. No, she doesn't. What happens in so late in the day? So it's, for the first few pages, sort of nothing, but you don't mind. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, because the writing's understatedly beautiful. Yes, very, very beautiful.

So it's like, you know, shirt sleeves, cleaner texting, watching him walk by. He's in some sort of foul mood. Right. You don't quite know why he's angry or this contempt or comes from. And he, you know, his phone is switched. off and he doesn't want to switch it on to see what messages he's got. So there is a tension there. There's a story.

There's a story happening. There's a story. And then he's sort of reflecting, almost sort of walking through the streets a bit on public transport, reflecting on his relationship with this half French woman who seems like she was really great with food. The small little stories you get about her make you realise, like there's this story about him having to buy her some cherries from Liddle and, you know, resenting that they would cost six euros, but she was going to make a tart.

She used that one of those very pleasure-orientated, knowing what a nice thing would be, and what to do if there are cherries in season, and good with cooking, good with wine. They would go to farmers markets and she never sort of skimped. He once saw her spend like four euros on a savoy cabbage that just looked normal to him. And she cooked him all these lovely dishes. It's just the very simplicity of her cooking. And he's not having these sort of gastronomic revelations through it. Actually what you're hearing is someone sort of lightly caring for someone.

It doesn't seem like it's this massive love story between them, but he does propose to her on the day of the cherries, actually. And it's a very like, shall we get married then? And then on the way to them sort of getting engaged, there's a couple of moments where she really rocks the boat and doesn't think she does want to marry him. And it involves his selfishness, the fact that she cooks everything, cleans up everything,

buys all the food. And that if ever he does pay for something, it's just such a big deal that he always brings up this six euros for the cherries. and this is all spoiler but unfortunately with a very short book and then essentially what you realise is that she called off the wedding and she apologises for it being so late in the day and there's a title

but within it there is a memory he has which is one of the worst things I've ever read Oh as in horrific or horrific but not because like it wouldn't be on the news Right It is and maybe it's because Okay so it's a few things I have two sons

I am a mum and in terms of like close family members, aunts, uncles I know families that are a bit like this So it's the dad and sons, the mum cook God I want to cry talking about it Because it's such a punch in the book Oh yeah, yeah

It's such a punch in the book So he's remembering his friends And then he had a memory of his mum Cooking them dinner The dad and the sons sitting down To start eating it And the mum comes over with her plate and the son pulls out her chair and she falls on the floor

and they all laugh at her and her dinner's all gone and there's plate smashed and it's such a time I mean that's such an every day oh my god it's like being punched that's like dramatic events that aren't like you know it's not like a car crash

but it emotionally and what it signifies and then what a clever thing to tell us that about a character's backstory and the ending of the book really is about how much he hates women he starts calling them the C word I read another interview with her because I was obviously doing my deep dive, and she was saying,

this is about the C word, she says, because George Saunders wouldn't say it. She does say cunt in the book, by the way. I'm saying C word. So she's saying George Saunders, when he chose her essay to be on a podcast, he refused to read it because of the word. He said,

I feel like I can't, you know, it sounds awful if I say it. And she reads it and she says, she respects his reluctance. Even though he considered it to be the perfect word, as I do, it's what Irish men often call women here. Writing the language people use

is part of what a writer does to betray the lives we lead, the world we live in. So I think she's obviously deeply affecting what she feels as Irish male culture. And the moment when the character, he doesn't just use it in a offhanded way, he finds it.

And so, you know, he turns his phone back on. He's eating the cake and drinking the champagne that was for either her Hindu or his dad do. And she's done this to him and he's already paid all this money for the wedding. Oh, it's about money, yeah, of course it is. And masculinity, money, and then he calls her a cunt, and it feels really unsure of him.

And then he's like, no, they're all cunts. And he remembers the cleaner and a woman in the office who had told the fiancé something about him. And then he's like, no, they're all cunts. And that's it, the plurality of it makes him much more satisfied. And then it's the right word because it's attached to all women. And then that's what you just realized, what are cleverly deftly put together. set of events and everything she's told you, everything she's created in the world, feels like a snapshot of something. And yeah, it's the kind of thing you just go, that's why,

and what are you unpicking when you're talking about equal rights or, there's a lot to do in 40 pages? With this finished, I gasp because I can't believe you've just ripped me out of the world and it's done so quickly. Yeah. Yeah, I felt like that. I read it very quickly. Whereas if you'd had a short story straight afterwards, which you would have had in a collection of short stories, obviously, you'd have then started thinking about. this new world and then this new world and they'd all have laid it up whereas there's something really brave about going and it's just that story and that's just going to stay with you

and that's why that story about the mum and the sons and the chair being pulled away like this lighthearted contemptful prank the cruelty to a woman who does all of the cooking and cleaning and does everything being you know it's very difficult to stay angry if it's your constant life because you're the one who has so if you're just doing the labour or you've never been thought to expect any better or you're never going to get any better at least at least the say in this book is wherever she is. She's out. Free.

Yeah. She's free. She's free. I love to see prose written economically. Elegance is saying just enough and I do believe that the reader completes the story. Because she's written five books to date which run to just 700 pages. Yeah. Wow.

So fascinating, isn't it? Like she says about characters, I don't think that elegance is necessarily a choice. Yeah, yeah. I think you can as a writing exercise, I imagine, especially if she's teaching, you can get people to to write in certain styles. Yeah, people write their stories. Not all writers can do this. Are really good in this way.

No, no. It feels, again, it reminded me a bit of Annie I know. Like it's very particular. It's a very distinct voice that doesn't need to tell you a lot. And it does take a while to get your head around because I think so much of what we read has this extraneous stuff that often it doesn't need to be there. And when someone, I don't know, it's very direct, isn't it?

And it's like when someone starts speaking to you in that such clear direct space, I found it a bit unnerving. Like I was like, oh God. It's scary, isn't it? It's tent. What's going to happen? Why are you telling me so little? Like some, and again, small things like these, there's, again, an incident which, similar

to yours were not that incident at all. But again, same thing where you're like, that's tiny, but that's just changed everybody's world. Yeah. That's done it. That's turned everything upside down what you've just done. And she also, I read another review being like, where she ends her book is often where you think another writer would start the second act,

being like, right now, where do we find? What does he do now? What are the consequences of this? Or they'd have her, Sabine's chapter, and it'd be like, well, now we hear her side of the story, but it's like, she just goes, nope, that's what I'm giving you. Which is that a confidence, isn't it, to be able to do that? Yeah.

To not feel that you need to tell more story. Yeah. I could never write like that. But also, it depends, it depends what effect you want to have on, do you remember at university when we talked about sort of like a Brechtian theatre? And what you don't want at the end of something is, laughter or applause. And then people go back to their lives.

It's like, no, you have to leave them sort of uncomfortable and agitated. And there's an argument that that is what Claire Keegan is doing. She's ruffled my feathers. Oh, she ruffled my feathers, yeah, yeah. And I do actually think it's a very, like we said earlier, it's like smart because if you read about the Magdalene Laundries, it's very easy for it to become, as I did, facts, figures, numbers is huge, you can't really get your head around it. You just know it's awful.

But what she's done with this story will stay with me forever. that that whole town knew, but didn't know, but did know. And that's very how we're living right now of like, you know stuff, but you don't know, you don't know full details, you don't know what you can do about it, you feel powerless. And it's that feeling of humanity, isn't it? Of just like, in 110 pages, like, making you think it's really hard to make a change when everybody is like, that's not happening. You know what I mean?

Like your whole society is like, it's fine, it's just a laundry. Yeah. That's all it is. Yeah. And all of you sort of know. And also it will be, or then going, okay, so what are you going to do then? Yeah. And it will destroy your life.

And it will destroy your children's lives. Like that's what you're putting on your plate here. It's, yeah, she's an extraordinary writer. Yeah. There's a theory that with beauty, as in with looks, that the people who stand out are the people who aren't like the norm of beauty. So you have lots and lots of people who've got, you know, puffy lips and red cheeks.

And then someone will come along with different. So like Marilyn Monroe. Oh, yeah. Everyone's very sort of skinny, twicky kind of thing. And then you have a curvaceous woman. And I think the same thing happens with writers. You've got all these incredible writers, but you could sort of say they're all influenced by each other.

If you enjoy this, you enjoy that, and then someone does something quite different. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's leapt upon us, oh my gosh. Yeah. I don't feel like I've read anything like it. I have to say, I didn't enjoy it. You didn't enjoy a book about the Magdal and Laundries?

No. I don't think you were meant to. No, that's what I mean about the agitation feeling. I want to add that to our listeners to be like, it's brilliant writing. But it's not like I didn't sit down and like, and then even when picking it up today, I wasn't like, oh,

I was like, gosh, this is a, I feel like it's like a tiny axe. It's like it's so small, but it's got so much in it. We read things for different things, like we watch TV for different things. When people are sitting down to watch baby reindeer on Netflix, then they're not going, this is just going to be pure enjoyment.

Yes, they are aware because other people have told them something's well made, but they want to be confronted and they want to think and they want to be able to join in a discussion about certain things. And it's the same with books. So when people talk about beach reads, they're not trying to insult anyone. They're going, page Turner, you know, you're going to enjoy your time off, pure pleasure. That's what they mean. Yeah, that's what I want to say to like, it's not, whereas some books will ruin your holiday. Yeah. Do not take this day. Don't take it to the beach because you're starting to be like, guys, get out of the sea.

Oh my God. Can you imagine? What are you reading? Um, actually, it's Matt Magna Laundry. Yeah. Yeah. I just saw another quote that I found, which is quite, this is. is her making a joke, right? I do think no story has ever been read properly unless it's read twice. So it's a longer book you see than you think it is because it needs to be read twice, double the pages, says Keegan with a laugh in her guardian interview. I thought, that's interesting. She's saying, like, you kind of got to read this more. I love that because she's literally going, I'm better than you think I am. Yeah. And actually, read it again. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm, so did you read it twice? Well, what I did do, I started reading it and I got

read, I was like, I don't think I'm paying this attention. I'm really distracted. I thought, oh, you might as well read it again. Like, read the beginning again. 30 pages, won't take me too long. And I was like, oh, yeah, she's right. Like, you do, it is that elegant in taking it. It's like a horticature garment, you know, and you look like, that's nice. And when you look up close, you're like, fucking out, this is amazing.

I love it when the brilliance of something in its entirety means that looking at the beginning. So starting again, it's almost exactly that the cycle of the story existing for itself. And when someone's being so economical with words, it's like, I think, again, I felt like I wasn't a good enough reader at first. I was like, yeah, yeah, what happens? Yeah, yeah, Cole Man, Coal Man's driving around town. He's got all these daughters. And it's like, that's not what she's trying to tell you, Carriad.

But I was in that kind of like, yeah, what's the plot? Okay, and then this happens. And I was like, oh, she's asking me one to slow down, find that very difficult. She asked me to pay attention, find that very difficult. She asks me to notice small things, find that very difficult. So I was like, oh, God. Don't you think that's a really wonderful thing to experience? Yeah, yeah.

Because it's really hard to slow down. it's really hard not to go yeah yeah got it got it got it finish a sentence for you understand if you've got ADHD like some of us definitely yes and that's why

I mean sometimes you do just judder at an author's style at the beginning and then you adjust to it and it's amazing and you don't have much time to adjust to it that's the thing because it's so quick so like I was halfway through

and I thought I haven't read this properly so that's the other thing I think sometimes you have to critique yourself as a reader do you know what I mean Like sometimes we're so busy critiquing a book and you'd be like, I'm not being a good reader to this person. Yeah. This person is writing elegantly and sparsely.

Yeah. And I'm acting like she's going, alright, then. You're right. I would like to do Amazon reviews. Of the readers. Yes. Yes. I agree.

What I'm getting about you, Susan. One of the ADHD chats we had, which was about the theatre, which is quite revelationing for me, which was that people with ADHD find it difficult to concentrate in the theatre, but you've never had that problem. Well, I do, but I find there's. So one of the questions they ask you when you get diagnosed with ADHD, they say, do you find it difficult to sit in a theatre?

And I was like, oh, not particularly because I really love the theatre and there's lots going on. For me, costume, lights, people, all this stuff. Yeah. But music gigs, nightmare, because nothing's happening. And I find it unbearable. But I said this to you and you were like, oh yeah, who doesn't find it hard? Well, what I do in the theatre and it may be understand Steen with reading, my husband, who's got ADHD.

So it might be in the theatre. I will sit there and I'll go, that's definitely five minutes. That is definitely 10. I have been to theatre with you so many times. We used to regularly take trips to the theatre. Yeah. Oh, I want to have seen the play. She wants to,

but you will always leave in the interval. I've got the gist. Oh yeah, you often try to stop us going in. When my husband reads, because again, like me with a play, he wants to have read the book. Other people think it's good,

and it'll be about something he's interested in and he'll literally call out to me, I've read three pages. I've 10 pages in now, and I went, do you turn every page and then look at the number of the page and then think when I've read this page, I'll be on page number nine

and that is how he read and that's how I watch theatre. Yeah. And exactly that's not good audience. You have to like be good audience and I think my dear mother-in-law who's not with us anymore was an amazing audience.

Yeah. Like that's what thing my husband always said about her. She had the ability. She understood that an audience is an active job and she understood that when you come to see something

you can't just be like well you impress me otherwise I'll be bored. It's like you have to bring the right attention they need. Oh I bet the actors always looked at her. Oh, I bet they're.

They do. I was the first time I'd ever considered an audience has to also bring something. I was like, no. They'd be interesting. If you've done more stand-up at the weekends, you'd understand. Because sometimes they really haven't, there is a duty of, I can't do anything if you're really drunk. Yeah, exactly. If you can't remember what happened 15 seconds ago, it would look like I've started a new story. This woman, this is very avant-garde, this stand-up. By the time you get to the punchline, if you've forgotten the set-up, that's on you.

But I would say that I would definitely recommend people read, small things like these. Or so late in the day. Or Antarctica. Antarctica or the other one she's done Walk the Bluefields, Foster, the Forest Daughter. But I do think you need to have a quiet corner. Don't be fooled by a thin book and being like, oh, I can read this on the tube. No, you need a quiet corner and some time to take in what she's telling you. Because this is like someone speaking quietly and slowly.

You're not at a party. Yeah. And it's not going to drown out other noise. No. And we have such noisy lives, everyone now. It's so noisy. So, fucking noise. So I would definitely recommend it.

I think she's amazing. But I just caveat that would like come to it with the right attitude. Yeah. I feel like we should we should read a real maximalist. Oh, yeah. Shouldn't we? Like someone at a party grabbing you, I've got something to tell you.

Whereas this is the quiet lady in the corner that you think, oh, maybe she doesn't want to talk to anyone. She does. She's just humming. She's just delivering coal. She's just putting some wool back on the roll. And you think, oh, she's not having a great time. I don't want to go and sit over there

There's a glint in her eyes Go and sit next to her Let her weave a story for you Yeah she's not really humming She's always at a sea shantling That time's gone by I'm not I think we've wandered into cliche

I was just trying to think of what kind of music had words Oh I think it's all songs actually I think you're making I've just realised I love songs What music has words Oh songs That's what it's called

They're like books But with a rhythm I remember Somebody on Instagram Undescored a speech by Ian McKellen. I did that thing where they like edit it

and it sounds like he's singing because he's got such a rhythm to his voice and I thought why have you ruined his speech? I was like he's doing a perfectly

brilliant speech he didn't want a song it's true he didn't want to be underscored if he wanted to lay it down as a track he would have done probably it's a lovely speech

so it's like his sunscreen now yes they've sunscreened it exactly that and I was like oh god can we not just listen to sign

like are our brain so fucked that we have to like make it music to even drab your attention. And that's why her success is interesting, isn't it? Because she's not screaming and shouting and doing stories with like page turner twists and car crash and all this. She's like she's doing nothing to grab your attention. But yet, because of that, it's incredible writing.

You know that guy at Amma, I did a documentary, went to Turkey years and years ago. So he runs this holiday company called Travelling Blind. And so sighted people go with blind people. And the reason that the sighted people love it so much is because when you're having to describe things, for a blind person, it absolutely stops you rushing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you absorb so much more because you're consciously noticing things for somebody else. Normally you're just like, oh yeah, mountain. Yeah, or not even that.

Just sort of, you know, gift shop. Oh, yeah. Getshop playing Lillian. There's a big church. I like this song. Yes. Yeah. I do think.

It's something lots and lots of people, when they have it, are very glad for, and they slowing down, absorbing things. So we recommend it. We recommend slowing down, absorbing some Claire Keegan, a cup of tea. What I'm saying is like, I'm giving you a context, context of recommendations. I'm not just like, oh yeah, you should read that. I'm like, find yourself. Quit your job, leave your family, buy a tiny book, get on a train to a destination you've never been. Or Lester. Oh, I don't know. I think if you've done that, you need something calming. Okay, depending on your budget. Yeah, true.

True. All right. Get the plane to Dublin. Actually, that's just very expensive on the train. But I thought it was very good. And I would happily read so late in the day if it would take me 20 minutes. So that's fine, isn't it? I'll give it to. You like tiny books so much.

Thank you for listening to the Weirdo's Book Club. My novel Weirdo and Carriads book, you are not alone, are both out in paperback and available to buy now. You can find out all about our upcoming books we're going to be discussing on our Instagram at Sarah and Carriads Weirdo's Book Club. for reading with us. We like reading with you. We like reading all the books with you.