Sara & Cariad's Weirdos Book Club - Standard Deviation by Katherine Heiny with Roisin Conaty

Episode Date: September 5, 2024

The first book guest of the new series of Weirdos Book Club is Standard Deviation by Katherine Heiny.Sara and Cariad are joined by actor and friend, Roisin Conaty to discuss second wives, friendships with exes, infidelity, guilt, autism, silk shirts, origami and turkey. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you! Standard Deviation by Katherine Heiny is available to buy here or on Apple Books here.You can find Roisin on Instagram: @roisinconaty1Sara’s debut novel Weirdo is published by Faber & Faber and is available to buy here.Cariad’s book You Are Not Alone is published by Bloomsbury and is available to buy here.Cariad’s children's book The Christmas Wish-tastrophe is available to pre-order now.Follow Sara & Cariad’s Weirdos Book Club on Instagram @saraandcariadsweirdosbookclub and Twitter @weirdosbookclub Recorded by Naomi Parnell and edited by Aniya Das for Plosive.Artwork by Welcome Studio.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I'm Sarah Pasco. Hello, I'm Carriad Lloyd. And we're weird about books. We love to read. We read too much. We talk too much. About the too much that we've read. Which is why we've created the Weirdo's Book Club.

Join us! A space for the lonely outsider to feel accepted and appreciated. A place for the person who'd love to be in a real book club, but it doesn't like wine or nibbles. Or being around other people. Is that you? Join us. Check out our Instagram at Sarah and Carriad's Weirdo's Book Club for the upcoming books we're going to be just discussing. You can read along and share your opinions. Or just skulk around in your raincoat like

the weirdo you are. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you. This week's book guest is Standard Deviation by Catherine Hiney. What's it about? It's about Graham, his wife, Audra, his ex-wife, Elspeth, and his son Matthew, and the various situations they all find themselves in in New York City. What qualifies it for the Weirdo's Book Club? Well, it's about exes being friends. Pretty weird. In this episode, we discuss Second Wives, friendships with exes,

infidelity, guilt, autism, silk shirts, origami, and turkey. And joining us this week is Roshin Connety. Roshin is an award-winning stand-up comedian. She's an actor and writer,

star of Game Face, which was a two series on Hulu in America and on Channel 4 in the UK, and she happens to be one of our favourite people and best friends. Welcome to Roshin. Welcome to the podcast.

Rocheon Comishie! Hello! Hello! We're so excited you're here. I'm so excited to be here. You're starting the new season? Oh yeah, this is the first episode. Oh, autumn into winter. Yeah. Oh, autumn into winter?

Yeah. I should have worn something more wintery. Where's your scarf? We're so cold. Yeah, that's it. Stick your scarf on, open your book. Yeah, get your hot chocolate ready. Oh, it's my favourite time a year.

I can't wait to watch me. Hibernating. Hibernating. We are talking with Rashid. about standard deviation by Catherine Hiney. Had you read any Catherine Hiney before? I heard of her? I hadn't.

No, no, I hadn't. So, when you first one. This is your first one. Carrie, I'd had read one early morning riser, which is the only one I'd read before this. Is it about an erection? It is. It's a whole book about erection.

So it's from the point of view of the erection. It's short. I'll get up and then, oh, went back to bed. So, yeah, I hadn't read standard deviation before. You wouldn't, no, this is your first, Kaepin Haveni. When I signed with my new literary agent, she said, this book was the funniest book she'd ever read. So this is a big test for me. It's a big test, yeah.

Yes. Yeah, how did we find it? Yeah, I think she's a beautiful writer. I really, I did it, really enjoyed it. I really enjoyed it. It's a very sort of comedy of manners, I guess, about marriage. And so it's very easy reading. I've had this reassurance on the first page.

Oh, nothing that bad's going to happen. This is, this is Katha Nainis thing, having read two of her books. She kind of deals with, like, a point of time in people's lives and just stays there. It's like the minutiae of domestic life and just kind of spending time with those people for a moment. Yeah. But the setup I did find interesting, and I think it's because I'm a second wife.

Oh, that is interesting. I forgot that about you. Yeah. I just forgot. I'm a second wife. Yes, because it is about a second marriage. That one man can marry two very, very different women. The perspective on you, if you are the second wife, you will always be sort of competitive.

and contrasted with his first wife. And sometimes that might be... There's a first experiment to always compare to, yeah. So she's writing about two women. That's very, very different. Very different. So you should say it's set in New York. It's about Graham, who is married to Audra, his second wife,

who is a very gregarious characters. I mean, would we say nightmare? Oh, do you think she's a nightmare? Yes. I loved Order. By the end, I was getting quite panicky. Oh, were you? Yeah, I was a little bit.

Just like, because it's beautiful. I think it's not a a pejorative of the book. I think she shows it. I felt like I was in the room with her when she'd started. Oh no, no, no, Audra's here. She's going to not, you know.

There's something, this is, I think, really sums up Audra. So Audra is someone who really knows everyone, has got, like, information. But it's pathological. Yeah, and so she's telling this very long story to Graham. And Graham says, yes, oral history is a wonderful practice,

a powerful way to preserve traditional customs and confront contemporary problems. Graham firmly believed that, but he also believed he knew what it was like to be married to a tribal elder whose storytelling is a bit of the long-winded side, which I just thought was such a perfect description of Audra's unbelievable. And very loving, because later on, when he meets that lady at the door of the new friend of the son,

and he's got no patience. And I thought it was really brilliant because it shows that when you love someone, you don't notice a thing that in someone else, you go, oh my God, this woman saw you. is going on for ages. And I thought, you're married to Audra. This woman's had three sentences, and you're like, oh, one of those people who chases their own story.

And I thought, have you listened to your wife? So Audra, it's not just sort of connection. She likes putting people together. She has these dinner parties with vickers and people who want to go into schools and waves and strays into the house. There's always someone staying in the box room. That's where I would be like, if my husband was like, oh, guess what, someone's staying over for six weeks.

It's the dormant from downstairs. She definitely has a need for connection. and she has a need to talk. She expresses everything verbally. Like nothing, she's not internal. Nothing about her is internal. And she's quite external. And she's quite external.

About things as well. Yeah. And his first wife, Elspeth, is not like that. Contained, quiet. But they both sort of never talk about their feelings. So Elspeth is caught up in this sort of minutia of her life. The sort of formalities. And I think Audra, she was never excavated.

She never said it was that kind of relentless. When you meet someone in a pub and they just say everything and everything, and you think they've said so much and absolutely nothing. There's nothing there's not one moment with Ordo, isn't it? Like much later where she is emotional, but it's quite unusual. Yeah. When she actually says something quite emotional to Graham, which happened quite late in the book. Both women, it is an almost a form of defence mechanism.

We don't get into Elspeth and Graham doesn't. And the same with Audra. There's a carnival of personality going on and information. But do we really know her? No. And does Graham really know her? No. No.

And I guess it's also about sort of surfaces, isn't it? Because on the surface, Graham is quite a neat, tidy person. He doesn't speak a lot. And his first wife, Ellsworth, is like that. And they like to sort of cook in silence. And they're very comfortable with each other being like, but Elspeth is extremely tidy. And then Order is complete other end of the spectrum.

I found it very calming Elspeth. It's probably because I live with two toddlers. And I'm not like this. But you know how Gillian Anderson always wears silk shirts and things? You know, did you watch? There's a lot of silk shirts. throughout the book. Yes.

Yeah. I literally was like, Catherine likes a silk shirt. I'll take that for a little. It's the epitome of something you can't wear if you're going to spill something on yourself. Yeah, you've got to be a knee person, yeah. So because you'd have to dry clean it. I mean,

she can't even sweat this woman. Yeah. Well, she wears heels in around the house for comfort. That was a bit that I found mad. That was the bit that was like, what? Like I just even,

because you hardwood floor. Like it feels like that that felt like a real piece of information that I felt like just gave her. little bit of flourish because it didn't feel like just this kind of formality. I felt like, oh, this feels, you know, sort of pathological. What is that a little bit. What Graham always says as well, like, you can never relax around Elspeth. Like, never. Everything is pristine. Like, you can't kick off your shoes and, like, take your bra off. Like, she gets into her house heels. Like, that is the kind of woman. She is. And Graham has an affair, ends up being married to

Audra. And you can see he feels like he's slightly failed. Like, but he also feels like, but who could be married to Elspeth is the question. and we keep being asked. So that interesting set up for a story is that essentially what you have is the new couple, Audra and Graham, wanting to be friends with the woman. They had an affair behind her back. Which is Audra leading that. That's be clear. And it doesn't seem to be like a massive forgiveness thing. It's not like, oh, we want to make it up to her or we need her forgiveness to continue. It's it's shallower than that. It's more like, oh, so much time has passed. Who could still care? And also, Audra is obviously curious. Order wants to ask.

a lot of stuff about her and Graham's sex life and their relationship. And I think when you're in a big relationship with someone and then they've got someone who was, they were married to or whatever, like you feel sort of tied when all the heat's gone down and later on and she hasn't met anyone that they know of. You can imagine someone getting a bit of guilt. Did they meet anyone? Did they not? And I think Orda's, I don't think she feels guilty, but I think she is, she's very secure. The thing about Orja was, that was really interesting.

She had absolutely no problem with it. and absolutely, you could, that sense of herself, her, her, her attractiveness. Her attractiveness and her thing with men, I thought was a very, um, I think Catherine really sort of showed that well in the book, just like someone,

when you're completely secure, you can, you can have your ex, your husband can go to, but you don't have any, like, sort of doubt. Did you think, Roche, that that was because she was also cheating on Graham? Because that's what, yeah.

I mean, well, I don't think that was like a really, well-mined thing. I think the psychology of someone who's already got a leg out of the relationship. They're always so much more confident. Oh yeah, that's so true. But she kind of does and doesn't have a leg out relationship. Or they're the opposite. They're really, really jealous because they know. Yes, because they know what's people are capable of.

Yeah, you could be going. Yeah, you say you're going to curries. Where are you really going. Who's going to curries? When you're going to curries, are you not going to curries? It goes to curries every week on Friday. It's weird. But she... She says it's just looking at laptops. I'm like I'm saying there's a shower.

I need new radio. What of it? Because she is, well, we find out there's sort of a dally. happening with Audra later, but she also does love Graham. So she's, it's... I wasn't sure about love and anything. Oh, really? Yeah. Maybe that's just me.

Maybe that's never loved anyone. Yeah, I felt like it was, obviously there was, you know, you felt like they were committed to, you know, they were committed marriage. There was a bit in the book where they're looking at the, there's an origami club in the book and they're sort of made up of these sort of, a bit outsiders, you would say, you know. Which their son, Matthew, goes to, who is much younger. Much younger. And so there's three guys.

And when they're leaving, Graham puts his arm round Audra and was sort of like, thank God for And I was like, I want to be in the lift with the guys. No. I didn't want, I didn't. And I felt like that was a really perfect thing of a relationship. When you're in it, you think everyone, you think it's the, like, it's the bill. And I was like, this doesn't, like, I think Catherine shows such a great of like what it is. And yet people still go, aren't we the best, isn't this the best thing?

Even with all of the toxicity and, you know, kind of things not working. There's still a thing of going over everyone in the world, I'd rather be with her. And as a reader, because we can see all of the stories, I was like, I'd rather be in the lift with those guys. For the origami club. Yeah, they're sort of free and they're not in the middle of this absolute mess. The episode they have where they're sort of having like a hodgepodge, I don't know if it's Thanksgiving.

It's Thanksgiving. Yeah, yeah. So there's lots of people around. And my life's quite isolated and quite often I think, oh God, I wish I was out. And that scene, really me go, thank God, thank God, I'm not in someone's. house having to like lightly eat food wait for a course. Were they like he's cooking and him and Elspeth decided to do the cooking because they're better at cooking so Orgers is talking to everybody.

A guy from the origami club comes, a neighbour comes, the doorman is there like just random people that Orger, but Orger seems to feed on like the dopamine of new people and new things and weird connection, isn't it? Yeah. She feels like the sort of matriarch in an Austin novel. Oh no, blah, you should go sit down with blah, did you know, did it? But in Brooklyn modern day, that sort of, that relentless... Matchmaking, almost.

Well, if I have a minute to myself, then myself might show up. It's written very much in the style of all sort of sitcom-y, you know, like her monologues, because they're so long. And they're really funny. You know, they are really funny. And some of the observations in the book are so good. Like, there's a bit, I thought it's so great. I was like, I literally pause. I was like, I mean, I'm, you know, it's a bit describing a lady with a fringe.

Oh, yeah, yeah. And they say, I'm going to mess it up. But it said like a cat, appearing out from under a fringe, like a cat under the sofa playing with something. And I was like, oh, there's so many beautiful lines where I was just sort of throw away. I think Catherine Hine is particularly brilliant.

Yeah. Very throwaway, simple observation of something that you read quite quickly and then you go back and you're like, that's an incredible. The bit I love when she's talking about motherhood, so they come across an empty trolley. Yeah. And Orja feels it.

a need to say, oh look, an empty trolley. Because once you've had a child, your job is the old, oh look, a digger, oh look, a green bus. And I was like, oh my. Talking to a nonverbal person, because I would love to have just been silent for eight months before they started chatting. But you talk to them all the times you get really used to an inane, one-way conversation that then you have to sort of not hear yourself.

Yeah. I don't know if I told you this, but I was in Tesco's and it was proper mum voice. Theodore was trying to eat a raw pizza. And so, you know, two things. One, you haven't paid for it. One, it's not cooked. It's all. I love it.

I love it. Both of those things in like proper mummy voice. Like, oh, we love pizza, but we can't have it now. And then Tom Ward, a really cool comedian. Don't tell him I must call him cool. But he was standing behind me and it was just so, I was blushing so much that someone had heard that voice. They've seen you in your pajamas almost. They've heard that voice.

I had the worst that when we're not with the kids, I will say to Ben completely band me. Wow, look at that digger. It's huge. Yeah. Men's like he's not here, well, it's not here. I call Steen Daddy. Oh, yeah. And so does Daddy want a, oh God, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry.

Do you want anything under a roof? It's all and that's what I think Catherine Hainey is so good at, just really grabbing the suttlest, tiniest thing that almost you wouldn't think to tell someone. Those moments are like wonderfully excavated. I loved this whole psychology of what you take after a relationship, talking about their pants. Yeah, that was amazing. Pans and you know it's going to

When my husband has those all clad pans Which I actually read them read him that section last night About the all clad pan How he won't take the all club She doesn't let him have it I love the details of it But also how when you do have those things In your new life

I had two breakups where both times I was leaving the man where we'd lived Oh yeah And so both times the men like fought For me to not take like my cutlery Oh no I didn't know that Yeah How will you eat?

But both times it meant I had to start over again, which had this resentment. But it also meant I didn't have the detritus of a relationship. And both men then had to get rid of the stuff. Because of course it reminds me. Two weeks later, they were like, what was I fighting for? My breakup, I wouldn't want anything from it. I just like, it feels like, you know, vomit. Yeah, because it's, because it's the lot.

That's the stuff you had your relationship in. Things carry energy as well. I swear, like, you know, sometimes you think, why am I going to bad day? If I'm drinking out this old haunted mug, from that old relationship I was in. Yeah. You know that that Catherine Hiney describes that he has to take something from Elspeth

and he takes a chopping board because he says his wish is it's so innocuous and it looks like the ones he has one day in the future he won't be able to tell which one's which. Yeah. And I was like, that is such a beautiful way of describing a character's emotional journey. But also that is his emotional journey. It's a fucking chopping board. Like that's what him and Elspeth have got to. It was awful.

It was awful. I felt really sorry for her when I read that. I was like, when you've loved someone or had a claim to at any one time, whatever, if you go and take, like, to try and remember them, but to be like, now, if I have to take this thing, it's to eventually forget.

But I think there's a sort of like, I don't know, I think you should be like, well, no, no, I should try and remember them because she had no one. And we live as long as people remember us. And it's like, oh, she's going to, no one there and you're going, and hopefully, I'll forget us soon with the chopping board.

It's a rejection in it, isn't it? Because what he was taking, I can't help, I think the reader can't help, but project onto Elspeth, how we would feel if it was all internal or otherwise. And so what would I feel if a lover took something so innocuous, I'd go, I'm not important to you. And you don't want to remember me.

You don't want to do the legwork. And sometimes remembering things are all painful, but that's your duty as someone who claimed to love you. They stood up and said, I will love you forever more than anyone. I think that's the big marriage breakdown thing is the public promise as well as the private promise. And for Elspeth and then the ongoing relationship with Graham,

in some ways I felt she was the most interesting character because she was the one I wanted to speak. But she was the one where I wanted to go. We don't really hear much of you. Yeah. What do you see in Graham? I have to say, having read some other Catherine Hainey, I did enjoy this, but I found Graham fucking hard work.

Like there were points and I was like, I would like not to hear Graham's point of view because she does write it, not always, but we slip into Graham a lot. Excuse me. And I got really frustrated with Graham because he is quite an uptight, emotionless man. And there were times in this book when I just was like, I've had enough of Graham.

And I also found like he was judging Audra all the time. And I was like, I actually preferred Audra. Because I was like, at least she playing talks to people. Like his constant judgment of his wives. And then his lack of judgment on himself. Towards the end, I was like, you know what, Graham, fuck off. Yeah, he didn't know, he didn't do any inventory on himself whatsoever.

I know the sort of like the frustration you get with the wardrobe. Like she does go quite big sometimes with the lines that she, you know, it's very like comedy comedy. You know, there's a bit where at the funeral and she says the vicar, that bit felt very sick comic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He says, next to the sandwich, holding a sandwich, Virginia ham. And she says, American cheese? Because she fixes a game. Yeah.

I love Roger. Yeah, it's great. She's a barrel of laughs. Yeah. But it just felt kind of, it's kind of, but he's irritation with her. I was like, what, she's not, there's nothing ambiguous about her. Yeah. That's her personality.

So I'd get annoyed. I was like, why are you irritated with her? Like, and also he was irritated with her and then was continuing to sort of have an emotional, not sexual affair with his first wife again, which even though Audra seemed to be in kind of encouraging that relationship, I was like, what, Graham, what do you want? I thought that the discussion, because it was sort of a discussion towards the end about autism and a spectrum. So their son, Matthew, we should say,

Audra and Graham's son, Matthew, is diagnosed with Asperger's, which is not a word that is really used now, but is used in this book that he has Asperger's. Yeah. But he's on the autistic spectrum disorder, you would now say. And it was quite interesting in terms of parents and husbands and wives

and other people being non-diagnosed, but if you were going to, in terms of symptomatic. Yeah, well, Graham kind of recognises himself, doesn't he, in his own son? But he's kind of proud that he's not as bad as Matthew. Yeah. Which I also found a bit. It's a sort of negative thing.

Yeah. Graham's perspective on autism when we get it is sort of lightly troubling. There's when he's thinking about the idea of having another child, he's worried they would have autism. Yeah. I think the one thing I did appreciate about this book is I think that it's honest about having a neurodivergent child. And I appreciated, oh yeah, really sad bit where he talks about, you know, so his son is obsessed with origami. and he has all these like food issues and everything has to be just right in a certain routine. And he goes to the origami club and he's amazing.

He's really skilled. And Graham says he would exchange all that origami talent for just a little sarcasm because Matthew never understands when they're joking or they're being sarcastic. And I thought that was really good that he was honest about the pain that you have, that this child is different. It doesn't work in the world the same way. Like he can't go around to people's houses because he can't have the same food and it has to be the same package and all. all those normal inverted commas kid things. So I appreciated the honesty of that. But I did, again, I think comes back to Graham being not a self-reflective character.

Yeah, I felt like Graham didn't really acknowledge his own oddness. No, I thought they were both quite judgmental. Yeah. You know, separating it from the sort of where they are on the spectrum and stuff. But I felt like it was, they're very socially aware. Yeah. There's a bit where she was, I'll need that because someone will, you know, I'll need that friendship. They'll have them around for dinner because I'll need something.

So I think she was very strategic. Yeah. So I think these people are very concerned with this place in the world, in the society, a very key. Even though she's saying all this stuff and she's very outwardly, you know, kind of like off the wall and I'm, you know, sort of breaking social norms. She wasn't. She was having the dinner parties. They were having. And then when they went to this, I felt really defensively origami lot.

I was literally like, you know, bend in the book before I went to bed. But I felt they were judgmental of them. There was a pity. They were like, oh, God, what if Matthew turned into them? Life was bought and I was like, there was a few times there was a real sneering at them. Yeah, definitely. Like, oh, please don't let them end up like. And I was like, what these sort of interesting people who hang out and did it, rather than you just sort of saying like that felt very just.

So middle class, isn't it? Middle class sort of like just concerned with keeping up appearances rather than like their own shame about potentially having any neurodiversity. You know that phrase like, don't yuck someone else's yum. Oh, which is like a, you know, to do with like sexual proclivities. but it does just sort of go through life. Because I think about about sexual prescribating. So don't, like someone else's yum is about

people who have, you know, they have stuff that's... Don't shame the kinks. Don't kink shame. But that goes through everything in life. It's like, it's one of the saddest things when someone has, like, pleasure in something or someone else feels they need to sneer.

Yeah. Like they're like, oh, you like cold play. It's like, yeah, I like something. Yeah. Like we don't have... But it meant something for them. It meant status. It meant...

They had, they attached a sort of meaning to it. Like, I felt like it was through the lens of, where is he in this society? Yeah. And I thought that was done, she's brilliantly done that. It's very subtle. It feels very real, doesn't it? Yeah. It also makes it more irritating.

Yeah. Because it feels like, you know, and then Graham did this. Yeah. Rather than that, an author created a character that felt so real to me, I was able to be irritated with them. Oh, I was so irritated with Graham so much. And like said, there's amazing writing because Graham's not real. One of the things I really loved and I really related to is,

is the fact that they moved into that flat because her best friend was living there. And I thought that was that kind of continued on the phoneess of her and just wanting to be near her. I really love that. It's really beautifully set up their friendship, the one where she goes to meet her for a short amount of time and then we'll have the longest conversation. Oh, the bit when they always chatting outside the block of flats, of course,

and Graham decides not to say hello to either, which you know would be so pointed with you and your best friend if the husband hadn't sent them. Oh my God, what's wrong with him? Well, let me tell you. Well, I'll tell you what's going on. He assumes, of course she already knows. She probably would have known about the affair.

Yeah, he says there's no point anyway. Of course she knows. And the sadness he has when she's moving, because he feels like, and you do have that when you, and I think that's a bit like the Elspeth thing, sometimes even when you have a friend of a friend that you've not met, but say it's really, your friends are the best friend almost, you know,

and you can know so much about them and not really know them. And yet you feel invested because you know that your friend loves them so much. And I felt like he does that really when Loreley's moving. He's like, oh, I'm losing Loreley. And you go, oh, I didn't even know you even sort of talk to her that much. That bit when he hugs her and he said,

I felt like, we both love the same heart. Yeah. And I was like, oh, that's such a nice way of, again, I think Catherine He's just so good at capturing those moments where that makes Graham very human. Yes. Whereas she just left him to be this irritated man. Obviously, he's going to fucking read that. But you see these moments with Graham.

You do care. Yeah. You care actually a lot about Lorelai and Ordo and Ellsford, all these women. you actually caged it's not very good at being with any of them but spoil you know like we all can be there's one bit where like another person's come to stay but you know these are people living in a manhattan house with a dormant you know blah blah someone's come to say it's not like you know and then he's like had to cook a dinner you know and then but he says the line is this my life he says it about

three times and at first I sort of sneered like oh my god like you've got it so hard and I thought as if you haven't done that when you've done load a dishwasher you know we haven't when you've got something so, you know, you can, I really love that, like, immediately to 10, like, is this my life? Yeah. You've had, you've had some people round for dinner. Yeah. And you like cooking.

Yeah. And you love your wife. These meals were good. His meals were really good. Yeah. You could tell. By the lemon on the turkey, it upset me. Oh, yeah.

I lost my mind when I read it. It was like, lemon and rose me on turkey. I kept reading over it. And you would, why? Because I just would never roast a lemon on a turkey because, I mean, you put a lemon in a chicken potentially. But what's the doing? turkey and chicken then?

Well, this is, I thought, Sarah, you're my kind of person. I thought turkeys were male chickens for a long time. Oh no. Then I met one. And they are like ostriches. Yeah. Very different. Very different species.

Yes. Yeah. Where did you meet one though? I met one when I was filming Man Down and this is the show with Greg. They make this noise. And everyone was doing it to the turkey and the only person he responded to was Greg and he would run at him. Like, as a kind of like, you are the leader.

Big tall man. Have a turkey. Yeah. Very much a live revelation that turkeys weren't male chickens. I was like, what's that? What do you think, guys about, talk about that spare room, there's a woman staying there for a while who's a sort of, yeah, sort of a friend, not a close friend, but Audra knows that her husband is cheating on her. Yes. And it hasn't told her.

And doesn't tell her, but they're sort of keeping her there waiting for her to find out. Order was trying to hint at it. Yeah. Which is really stressful. Yeah. Because William's stressed about that. And that would be, if you were the person who also knew vicariously and you're watching someone else trying to edge someone towards it, that really felt like, what is your duty

of care here? And it's not a close friend. Why would you make yourself in the centre of that drama and that actually is someone's real life? But that's Orger's job is to be the centre of a drama. Like you said, she's all about that's where she gets her power and status from is like information, knowing who to call and being. the person who goes, oh my God, it's awful. Oh my God, sit down and make you a cup of tea.

Like, she wants that. And I think that's, yeah, I think it's really interesting that Graham has married that. Like, he chose to have an affair with it and then marry it. It wasn't just like he just had an affair with Audra. He married her and had a child with her, which he didn't have with Elspeth. So he must also like that in some ways. There must be something about that. I think also, you could read into it that it is a sort of way of sort of making amends. I think, you know, there's a part of Ordra that's sort of like, if I fix this, if I help this woman who's, you know, because there is a guilt. If you give her the benefit of being fully a human underneath all that sort of

flimflam of chatter, that she might have had a moment of going, oh, you know, and then I love the bit in the book where it said great bit about hypocrites, like all things, you know, like cheating, like, you know, anything that we are all vices until it's us. You know, everyone, you just forget them that you've participated in it. And I think that's one way of looking at it. I think the showing that, you know, because she's like, oh, how could he and did it? And sort of not linking, you could view it quite harsh. being like, you did this and maybe offer the man some grace.

Maybe offer that he's met someone, you know, you offer the grace that you would want offered to you, that you don't know what's going on in a marriage. But I think also it could be from a place of guilt because Elspeth didn't meet anyone, you know, you want that person to meet someone, I think. Because then they just go, if they meet someone, then it will win. That's it.

It's all a love story. It makes, you know, all they're trying to sort of show that people who forget their past and sort of go condemn people and then forget that they, a lot of relationships are messy, you know, life is messy. It was also really funny, wasn't it? That like every time Elspeth comes around and sees like, oh, his new life is with Audra,

this very fervacious woman, and then there's Bitsy and the origami and all this stuff. And Elspeth and Graham still having that ability to just look at each other. And Elspeth having the ability to be like, is this what it's like? And him having to be like, yes, it is, it is what it's like. And that, again, it felt,

it's funny like we were saying, but Alder seems quite secure in a way. Graham doesn't feel secure. Like, he does seem constantly stressed to what he's done. He's married this person who is a lot. She's a lot. And also, Elspeth knows him.

So she knows what he hates. Yeah. So she's able to give him a look like, I know that's your absolute nightmare. And he's to be like, yeah, so what? It's my nightmare. Yeah, it's my nightmare.

Yeah. And I think that's where you do end up really feeling for Elspeth quite a lot, don't you? Because she's like, she was married to him for quite long, like for years, isn't it?

Yeah. But there's this sort of theme, isn't there? It's not just about the breakup of the marriages. It's like losing friends. It's about, you know, breakups and unrequited. And then sort of people being rejected and people being like, not you, not you.

And that was really beautifully done, I felt like. I think sometimes when things are going your way, if you're happily married and that people feel, and I think, Audra, this is a very sweet thing. I feel like there's a sort of, like, I've got to give, I've got to sort everyone out because I've got it. And there's all these unloved people, as she says, you know. And also for her son, she's creating all these social connections very consciously for his benefit, which is good parenting.

Really great. Elspeth does have this other relationship. And I guess that is... Ben Trup. I loved Ben Trub so much. Yeah, Ben Trub is a really funny character. The British shoe salesman. Yeah. He's hilarious.

Yeah, so he works in a department store. And again, he doesn't seem... Him and Elspeth's relationship is also baffling. Like, well, what do they see in each other? Yeah. Yeah, I know. And I thought the way they described British people was really funny as well. Like, just taking too long to say everything.

Yeah. And being really annoyed. They have a mouth slot. Unless you want a bus But I also put Orge Link in his arm I was like you're pushing it love I was like And asking him in the restaurant

You know Sometimes I was like How aware are you This question When you said What would you like in a hooker If I asked any of my best friend's husband's that Yeah

I think they'd be like What are you asking my husband Why are you bringing that up And so I know you've got to give it But also the history If it was someone I'd You know Take and you know

We'd had a shared overlap before I mean... That's why I love this book because I think she's so good as you said at humans. Like humans do do things that are odd

and are unsurprising and they do push boundaries and some people never push like I just think she's so it's such observation of how people work within relationships and I think

Audrey is a great character because she's such a disruptor and you need that in a book don't you someone to constantly do things of like what the what's she doing? It's very entertaining.

It's very entertaining. I was thinking after about fleshman is in trouble which I loved, have you read that? The TV show. The TV show is as good as the book. So fantastic. But very different to this,

but they live really nicely alongside each other when you're sort of excavating an imperfect union between imperfect people, which is what marriage is between human beings are. And it's just a different stage of it. And they're still together working at a relationship. They have a young child. And it's fun.

It's fun to be in someone else's marriage, isn't it? Yeah. And I think also it's like the first. marriage in this situation is haunting the second marriage slightly. But also it's proof that you, no one could be pinned down. Like Graham married to Elspeth is a different Graham. Yes. Graham married to Audrey is a different grain.

But those two people exist in the same person. But we want to go, well, you should be with them because you're both uptight. And you can't be with her because she's crazy. And actually that's not how love works. That's not why people have affairs, you know, because things just aren't working and you're falling in love with someone else. I just feel like it's that thing I'm going, people, do we ever leave people? Like, you know, we leave them, obviously, but all of our friends, everyone who, you know, there's a line, I don't know if it's Brene Brown or something, you know, people who loved you into existence. And I feel like even ex-partners, people that maybe not, you know, we loved each other and sort of to have a chance to maybe go back and there was the calmness of it. If there may have a conversation, a lot of people would like that. Yeah. It was like, oh, there was another us that could have been. There's a friendship. There's a, you know, like all good relationships. There's a part of us that love each other. But we're not each other's partner.

You know, like... Mostly in that sentence about being loved into existence is so perfect because actually I think what I saw with Graham and then realised is that you have a self that you are with a person that if you're not with them anymore, that self stops existing. Yes. Because he's a different self with Audra, which is why when him and Elsema are in the same place,

she knows, oh, you don't like this. And he's reminded of that self, which doesn't really have... It definitely isn't externalised, it's not verbalised in those situations with Audra. So you get to lose parts of yourself because you say, well, that doesn't, that part of myself doesn't measure as much. It's not conscious. It just, there's slight things where you go, well, I'll just turn that, you know,

there's a bit in it. She says, I'm going to quote wrong, but like, you know, all the edges. Like the life just takes away all the edges of it. And it does feel like everyone has to get a bit more rounder to be in a relationship. And it says, he's talking about, I think he's talking about that mad granddad that stays with him. But he says, sometimes other people's pain is more than you can take. You have to seal yourself off. And he's talking about it in terms of this mad guess.

they've got who's kind of very ageing and it's very pain fun. Talk to the dog. That gets really annoyed me as well. That gets, but also... He was one of my favour. Was it? Because he talked to the dog with no commands because he didn't... You don't, that's his partner.

So it's like you don't talk to your dog. He gives too long sentences. Yeah, and if you've got a full life, you speak in shorthand, like, sit down, get out. But if it's your actual person, if it's your, the thing you share your life with, you're like, well, listen, we're going to go to the shop. But that was such interesting because he's, he's, in the context, he's talking about this sort of mad man talking to a dog. But what he means is that's kind of what's happened with Elspeth.

Like he sealed himself off from that pain because he couldn't be with her anymore. He couldn't be that self. And so he kind of cuts himself off and removes himself. And that's sort of what breakups are, isn't it? It's like, well, I've caused you pain, you've caused me pain. Therefore, this, like this part, this self that we were can't exist anymore. How did you feel as a second wife reading it?

You said that from the beginning. We didn't really go into it. I am lucky that my husband's first wife, on paper, or Instagram. Happy, moved on in love. In love before we were, had a baby, like a month before we did. Oh, nice.

Yeah. There's enough of a happy ending from those major details. Of course. In Montford, what we used to worry about was like sloppy seconds, which is far more immature. Yeah. Oh, you've got a sloppy seconds? Yeah, I've got a sloppy seconds.

Trying to teach him to pick up his towels. Is it the first woman hadn't done the proper job? Is that what the implication is? I think they're a younger relationship. I hope he has a third wife. Sometimes I'll give him little tip bits. Because he's a serial marager, I'll say to him, okay, well, this is for your next wife. I had a friend who used to have really awful girlfriends.

And the people who were friends with the man would always be like, great friends, terrible tastes in women. And he was dating to women for ages. And one of our mutual friends said, she's going to make a lovely first wife. I'm such a damning, like, we'll be nice to her for the year that they're married. And then we'll never have to see her again. Thank God he didn't. He didn't marry her.

But I was like, yeah, that ability to just choose people. But even the, you know, the little boy, Matthew, his friend with the Rock Wilder kid. Like, even though that sort of, you know, there's a bit, it doesn't go to plan. You know, he sort of gets rejected. But he's changed from it. And so you do take in one of your most sort of benevolent thoughts about everyone you've ever loved and known, your friends, even the ones you think of them, my enemies, you know, if you've got the energy for that at this age. But, you know, like there's moments where you go, I was changed for the better.

I think unless it's a really awful relationship, not all relationships, but the ones where you go, you know, it just sort of didn't work rather than like this was hell. I thought of that earlier or what I thought about is in terms of like relationships shaping the self. It's why when someone's in a happy relationship or meets a new person and it can be friendship as well as romantic, you say things like, I really like who I am around them. And then you have the opposite where if a relationship makes you into someone you don't like, that's what could be hard. It's not just the relationship.

It's who you are around that person. Yeah. But that's true of friends, colleagues. Yeah. There are places. That dynamic that you have in, because we're all in relationship to each other, that sometimes you don't like who you are around somebody.

It's just a chemistry thing, isn't it? I thought what it was really interesting about Audra as well was because of the nature of her personality and how it was jazz, her conversation, you know, it was very like you don't know where it's going. there was no predictability of what's going to be discussed. And being in a relationship with someone like that, and the sort of, you know, the sort of cortisol levels that must be like, what's she doing?

What's she saying? There was a newness to her. And I think you can't compete with new. Like love can't really compete with new. And I think she felt new. A lot of the time he looked at her in the book and he experienced her almost like a new. And I felt like he still sees her as new.

And with Elspeth, I felt like he saw her as like a statue. Unchanged. changing and whereas he'd look at Audra and he'd sort of a couple of times within the book, his own wife and he's sort of been blown away by her. She keeps him on his toes. Even the affair actually has the effect of while it really hurts him and there's this period of him mourning or being grumpy or whatever it is, it resets him. Yeah.

He's on his toes. Yeah. And I love that she wanted to talk about it. I know. Because you do, you go, you're my pest, I need to tell. I was like, I wanted, like, the fact is like, I don't want to. Like, I really don't want to talk about it. I love that she was that I need to talk about.

I know. And she says it's in the telling. It's not for you. It's the people need to tell. Yeah. And I thought that bit made Orja really human. Yeah. But like she had a sort of had a dalliance and she knew it was wrong and she felt bad and

she wanted to talk like. She wasn't a liar. Yeah. Yeah. Which is very interesting. And she wasn't manipulative. She wasn't like trying to hurt him. It was very like, oh, I've been an idiot.

And I'm going to tell you straight away. And now we need to talk about it because you're my person and I talk to you things. And you can see. the pain of being a Graham of like, oh God, I've married someone who's going to have to talk to me about the people that she fancies. But it's like, but yes, as Sarah once famously

said to me, if you want all my, me at my best, you have to have me at my bad as well. Marilyn Monroe, I think so, originally. I think she gets quoted, but I don't even know if it's her, but Instagram insists it is. No, but we were talking about when we were younger about us both being, like, the craziness of ourselves

and how it's unfair for people to go out with us. And you were like, Yeah, but they get this other stuff. They get the brilliance and they get the love that Audra has. They get us when we're not on our period. Hey, those four days. Those four days. We are good as good.

Oh my God, I am a sane human for four days a month. What more do you fucking know? But yeah, I thought Audra was such a complex character. Like, just because she is annoying and she is too much, but she does love Matthew and all the status things she is out of love. And she does, like Graham lies much more than Audra does. So again, I just think Hine is so good at giving you these sort of like multitudes of people that they see, that's where they seem so real. That's very much where Hine puts the comedy.

And so she's giving us all this information, but she's doing the comedic monologues. And there are a lot of them, you know, they're very tricky to keep in reality. You know, the tone, the second it goes off and you go, I'm in writing now. If I can hear the pen, I get very upset. It's Victoria Wood-esque her monologues, I think. And they're so long. That's exactly. But, you know, imagine putting that character in a real marriage with affairs and you go, and she does it well, I think.

And there's periods where I did feel a little bit like, oh, it's full on, that this comedic voice is her whole, like, every day. She's like it with everyone. There's not much in the way of various. She doesn't have another voice for other people. And that I found quite normally people, you know, like you say, you're different with different people. I felt like she's got the one voice for everyone. It's like, she's very transparent. Yes.

And very funny and, yeah, I think Hine is a really talented writer. Oh, she's amazing. Yeah, it's such a readable book. Yeah. Which might sound like a blah thing to say. But there's lots of books that are incredibly worth reading but aren't readable. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like their hard work.

It would feel... Riding a horse rather than a bike. Yeah. If you'll enjoy it, then play it. It takes a minute. Oh, you're going to have to concentrate. Yeah. Whereas it just...

felt so real and readable to me and that's such a lovely thing and it just means I could if anyone picked it up and be like oh no that's not for you yeah yeah you'll read it you think about people you'll think about relationships did you think it was one of the funniest books you've ever read funny's really hard yeah in books I actually thought early morning riser I found funnier than this one also think it's a terrible when you say something is really funny yeah almost a little bit like and it's the best film I've ever seen yeah yeah almost it's you've sort of screwed it oh it's the worst thing because again you want to share with people how much you enjoyed something but if you then want them to enjoy it you have to keep your mouth shut. Can I tell you what I think the funniest book

I've ever read yes. Yes. Less. Have you read less? No, what's less? No. Wow. It's so funny. Wow. I mean, she's going to ruin it for us. What's it? I mean, who's it by? Andrew. Someone. Andrew? Andrew. Andrew? I was happy. Andrew. I was talking if I took long enough saying Andrew, I would remember the surname. I wanted you went, Andrew. I'm so dreaming. I'm Googling now. I'm Googling now. Andrew Sean Greer. Oh, that's a lot to remember. It's about a man going for a breakup. But I think also your write funny books need to come to you at the right time.

It's been in the right mood. People need to not told you it's funny. Same with like sitcom recommendations. You just need to catch an episode and go, I love it. And it's taste and it's what's real. It's like what feels observable to you. So there might be jokes in here we don't get. I definitely, definitely thought it was funny.

And I didn't find it funny in an annoying way. No, it's really funny. That's someone putting in too many exclamation marks. I thought, I mean, because what I would say more than that is it's well observed. It felt real. It was so readable. I enjoyed reading it. It's witty, isn't it? It's really witty. I was pleased to go back to it, all of that stuff. Can I just read when he said, Graham liked making tea. He liked cooking. He liked baking. He liked food. He liked kitchens. In another life, he had made an excellent owner of a safe house in the Underground Railroad.

This white middle-aged man. I would have been great. I would have cooked for you. You would have been a slave owner, Graham. Yeah. You wouldn't have been any use. Yeah, Graham's unawareness was very funny. There were lots of really, really funny things, but I was inside the story, so the jokes didn't pull me out of it. That's what I should say. Yeah, and it's not a book which is like, you don't slap your side. But then I've never, about any book have I gone.

It's just, I think it's just delightfully observed. Yeah, that's brilliant. Yeah. I really enjoyed it. I think she's a talented writer. So she started out in short stories and she was a YA author for like 20 years under different names. So she's written an awful lot before she finally wrote Standard Deviation. So yeah, I think this was the one that like broke.

She's been compared to Curtis Sittenfield. Have you read any of Curtis Sittfield? She wrote one that was based on SNL called Romantic Comedy. Oh, I've got that in my house. Yeah, I suppose it's very good. My sister's reading it. I just thought they're so weird. So it's a female writer on a show getting with a fit man.

Like she inverts the classic male comedy writer gets with a pop star. Oh, wow. In real life, Catherine Hine is married to a former MI6 agent. Oh, I thought, yeah. Graham now seems a little bit more spicy. A British guy. And she freaked him out because he was in a book. bar in a tux and she went up and said,

you look like a special service agent. And he was like, what? Busted. Yeah. He was like, what do you do with? I don't think she should have outed him. She didn't know. But now she's sold everyone. He's an ex-M.A.6.

He doesn't write for MI6 anymore. Well, no, because he's, because can't his wife's told everyone. Yeah. That was his order. Imagine if that was just a chat up line, you then had to carry on forever. Oh, God.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, used to work for M. Yeah, I thought it was interesting. We loved it. We thought it was really good. Loved it. Yeah. Thanks for having you.

What a treat to get to hang out with you guys. Talk about books. My God. Look at it. Look at you two. Cultured. Thank you for listening to the Weirdo's Book Club. Tickets for our live show at the South Bank Centre as part of the London Literature Festival are on sale now from Southbankcenter.com.

Or plosive.com. My novel Weirder and Carriads book, You Are Not Alone, are both out in paperback and available to buy whenever you're ready. And my children's book, The Christmas Wish Tastrophe, is also available to pre-werellie. order now. You can find out about all of the upcoming books we're going to be discussing on our Instagram at Sarah and Carriads Weirdo's Book Club and feel free to recommend any books we might enjoy too. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you.