Sara & Cariad's Weirdos Book Club - Still Born by Guadalupe Nettel with Emma Gannon

Episode Date: November 16, 2023

This week's book guest is Still Born by Guadalupe Nettel.Sara and Cariad are joined by Sunday Times bestselling non-fiction author, award-winning novelist, podcaster and journalist Emma Gannon to discuss fertility, age, choice, pigeons, loud neighbours and clichés. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you!Trigger warning: In this episode we discuss child loss, fertility and sick babies. Still Born by Guadalupe Nettel is available to buy here or on Apple Books here.You can buy Emmas's books including Olive here or on Apple Books here.Follow Emma on Instagram: @emmagannonuk and Twitter: @emmagannonSara’s debut novel Weirdo is published by Faber & Faber and is available to buy here.Cariad’s book You Are Not Alone is published by Bloomsbury and is available to buy here.Follow Sara & Cariad’s Weirdos Book Club on Instagram @saraandcariadsweirdosbookclub and Twitter @weirdosbookclub Recorded by Ben Williams and edited by Naomi Parnell for Plosive.Artwork by Welcome Studio.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Sarah Pasco. Hello, I'm Carriad Lloyd. And we're weird about books. We love to read. We read too much. We talk too much. About the too much that we've read. Which is why we've created the Weirdos Book Club.

Join us. A space for the lonely outsider to feel accepted and appreciated. A place for the person who'd love to be in a real book club, but it doesn't like wine or nibbles. Or being around other people. Is that you? Join us. Check out our Instagram at Sarah and Carriad's Weirdo's Book Club for the upcoming books we're going to be discussing. You can read along and share your opinions.

Or just skulk around in your raincoat like the weirdo you are. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you. This week's book guest is still born by Guadalupe Natel. What's it about? It follows two friends, Laura and Alina, both living in Mexico City and their journeys to become mothers or not. What qualifies it for the weirdos book club?

Well, Laura presents a point of view that is not often discussed, a woman choosing not to have children. Laura reflects on what it is to be a mother, without biologically becoming one. In this episode, we discuss fertility, choice, age, pigeons, parenting, loud neighbours, clichés, and stereotypes. And joining us this week is Emma Gannon. Emma is a Sunday Times best-selling non-fiction author, an award-winning novelist,

podcaster and journalist. She's written six books, including Olive, which also looks in depth at a woman's choice to remain childless. Trigger warning, in this episode, we discuss child loss, fertility and babies who are very sick. Thank you, Emma, for joining us. We're very, very excited to have you to talk about Stillborn by Guadalupe Nettel. I won't say it like that the whole way through. Lovely.

It's a great name, isn't it? The whole way through, I kept thinking, wow, the translator for this. How talented. Oh, it's really brilliant translation. I think it's worth mentioning Rosalind Harvey, and it was nominated, the English translation was nominated for an international booker, which I think fair play, because it is a fantastic translation. So, yeah, thank you for joining us.

There's so much to talk about with this book. There's so much, isn't I? I know. I looked at my notes. Because it's not just like, oh, this is a nice story. Yeah. Or a good story. It's huge.

She's a Mexican writer, Guadalupe. She was born in Mexico, but she did spend time in France as well. She's written other books before this. Stillborn was published in Spanish in 2020. I think this version, the English version, came out later. And she's won incredible amount of awards and done incredible, and done incredible in her things. As said, it was shortlisted in 2023,

the International Booker Prize, but from the very beginning, the first introduction is... Yeah, so actually I wanted to say something to anyone listening. Yes. Who might not be in a position in their life right now to listen to the conversation that we're going to have. I think we're probably going to talk a lot about, you know, choosing to have children, becoming parents, the liminal space in between. But this book, Stillborn, involves a really, really, really heartbreaking.

true story of someone getting a diagnosis during their pregnancy that their child isn't going to survive. So if you are pregnant or trying to get pregnant or that's it, so just don't listen to it. Because I even when I said to you when we were talking about books, I was like, oh, still points really good. Oh, I don't think you should read it. Because I was like, you're pregnant. Well, the reason I had to read it in one sitting is once I had started, obviously the writing is brilliant and the story is brilliant. And then there were six or seven points and I kept texting you. I have to stop now.

I was at a point to go, how could you do this to me? I told you not do. I said, don't read it. I was like, and you said, no, I can, I've read this other one. I can take anything. And I was like, okay, I said to you, do not, we can't do this book. You're too pregnant for it. Do you know what?

This book was just in my living room and had a friend coming around who's pregnant. Yeah. And my husband was like, I think you should move that book. Yeah. Just the title itself is so arresting. Yeah. Yeah. And it really, yes, so it's about two friends, Laura and Alina.

Laura has chosen, this is a very blunt way, but Laura has chosen not to have children. Elina has a child and finds out during pregnancy that there is a neurological difficulty and there is a lot of that story that involves doctors and loss and grief and possible grief and surviving and all of these things. It's a very difficult read of you in any way,

pregnant or going through that situation. Which doesn't mean you can't have emotions. No? Because if, I mean, yeah, I'm not much pregnant and I read it and it just made me feel very emotional. emotional. I just didn't want anyone listening to like be 10 minutes in and then go, oh God, I didn't know you were going to talk about this. We are going to talk about that. Yeah, we are. We have to. And because the book does really, really go into these two stories. And it is something that

happens to people. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. All of it is things that actually happen in people's lives. Yeah. But before all the trauma, yeah. We read this in tandem with Olive, your book, Emma. And what's so brilliant about both of them is, female characters having a discussion about their definite decision about not wanting to have children. And it's odd that something so massive and so common is so little written about. I know. I literally kind of looked at my own bookshelves and thought, well, I want to read this book. I'll go and write it then kind of thing, which is how all my books come about, actually.

But there were so many parallels and they're so different in tone and in sort of, background and in the way they've been written. But I felt very seen by this book, especially with the friendship dynamic of you feeling like you've got a buddy and you're not going to have kids together and then someone goes and changes their mind and that sort of selfishness actually of being like making it about you and your friend has massive news. It's really hard the whole changing your mind thing because obviously it's very difficult for the people who aren't going to change their minds and definitely, you know, they know this

about themselves or they've just made a decision and it's definite. And it's rigid for them. And that we're very comfortable in our culture saying, wait till you get to 30s, wait till you get to late 30s, wait till you meet your person. I think that's captured in the book really well because Laura and Alina are kind of young, artist, bohemian academics, both living in Paris at one point. Then they moved back to Mexico City. And Laura very much, she said, sees Alina in the same bracket.

We're not the idiots. Like, we're not going to subscribe to patriarchy. We're going to be free and travel and do all these stuff. And when Alina, you know, she gives that speech to her lean, doesn't she? And Alina's like, we're trying. She's like, oh. I loved early in the book, before she even specifies which friend this is for, this is what she, this is what she says to all of her friends.

The book starts with hearing an unhappy mother and son next door. Yes. So, you know, it starts with unhappy motherhood, a representation of the difficulty. And I just loved this so much. For years, I tried to convince my girlfriends that procreating was a hopeless mistake. I told them that children, no matter how sweet and loving they were, in their best moments would always represent a limit on their freedom, an economic burden, not to mention the physical and emotional cost they bring about.

What's more, society is designed so that it's us and not men who take on the responsibility of caring for children. I would tell them vehemently, is it really worth it? But that's such an important part of the discussion when actually lots of people, not just women, but especially women, feel bombarded with, and as you say in olive, clear blue adverts. And what is your life without? this and what will you do when you retire? Yeah, the idea that you're just going to think about yourself forever.

It's an important, like, how could you not? It's definitely the narrative of like, how could you not have children? What would you do with yourself? How terribly you'll regret this? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I've had that conversation with friends as well who've chosen not to have kids. I remember when I was younger before Instagram educated me, that you were like,

you're like, oh, you're sure you don't change your mind? And then being like, why? And being like, oh, I just thought you might. And no one says that when you're like, guess what? We're 12 weeks. You should not going to change your mind? Well, people do. That's the thing.

It is something. People do regret having children. It's not a narrative that is instant happiness. Ask any parent. It's really brilliant the way she writes about it because it is very blunt. Is it really worth it? But I feel like she really investigates it. She doesn't just, it's not, that's not the end of the argument.

Like I feel like she really makes Laura investigate what motherhood is and what it means to be a mother. Because as the storyline develops with this unhappy boy next door whose mother has clearly P.T. SD and depression, and she kind of ends up looking after this kid. She goes through what they call like a generativity stage, and I think it's a really brilliant fictional representation of the fact that just because some people don't biologically have children or even don't legally adopt children, they don't become incredibly important. Our society is surviving of people who care for other people's families, who do useful things.

So, yeah, it's such a good illustration of that. But even just for that from that first sentence, just to go back to the beginning, how we set up. It's really refreshing, like with Olive, to hear people making these arguments. She also does talk about, which I thought was really funny, when her boyfriend says, you know, he wants kids. And she says, we would simply have to leave the condom and its wrapper on the bedside table, maybe only once for me to cross the threshold into maternity. Just as someone who without ever having contemplated suicide allows themselves to be seduced by the abyss from the top of the skyscraper, I felt the lure of pregnancy.

And I was like, it's not many books that can casually, like, move suicide and pregnancy into the same area and be like, yeah, it's a seduction, but it's not, it would kill me. That's not what my life choice is. Which I was like, that is bold writing. How did you feel about the beginning of it, Emma? Yeah, I love that. I got the sense that Laura is quite a political feminist type of person as well, who is really thinking about these things.

And I think that's something that culturally has been written about in terms of the research into millennial women especially who are thinking about things more, just in general. Maybe they have more time or they've had different education or whatever it might be that's impacting them. But I love Laura how she's just sitting on her balcony smoking loads of fags and like, you know, she's got a lot of time. And I think that is something that draws me to her because I think as a writer, I want to spend my life just wandering around noticing things. And people are like, well, that sounds nice. But it is a choice because I'm also, I do believe, going to miss out on some stuff too. I wonder if that millennial thing that you're describing is

women feel it is a choice now. Yeah, that's true. And explicitly, rather than it's expectations or what your husband wants or what your family want. If you have your own income, you can make that choice, you decide how you spend it. Yeah, and I don't take that for granted. Like, I look at my mom, and I look at my grandmother and her mother before that. And I just feel like I'm living kind of this main character energy walking down the street of like, oh my God, I can choose. Like how amazing. I'm not going to ever moan about that kind of thing. It's really exciting. It can also, for some people, then be muddy when it comes to the area of having children, because I think of it as such a gamble. It's such a gamble because you don't know the outcome. There are lots of

unknowables. Unknowables are really difficult. You don't know if you can have children or not. So you don't know how you're going to have children. You don't know what kind of children you're going to have. You definitely don't know how you're going to feel as a parent until it's happening. You don't know. happening. So it's like people in their 20s or 30s are now being told, okay, you're in charge. And then you're going, okay, I quite like my life. Yeah. And I definitely have lots of friends who have really great lives. And I're like, why would you ruin this? And that was a big conversation with me and my husband of like, we really liked our life. It did feel like a big gamble of like, God, it's really nice. Do we really? And there's definitely times in the chaos.

Obviously, I do not regret having my children, but there's chaos when you remember what you used to have the time. And I think in this book, she does something I really like in that she never explicitly says Laura has time, but she describes the salad, getting ready, bringing the food round, having dinner to people who have children. And I'm like, wow, Laura had so much time today. She went to the library. She slept outside. You're just watching the birds. Yes. Because one of, one of the maternal, the parenting situations in the book are the pigeons nesting on her balcony. I love the nest. Yeah. I really love. And that symbolism made me feel very A-level English.

lit. I was like underlining it by all the symbolism. You can get a full essay out of the nest. And it comes up at what's amazing. So there's pigeons on her balcony building a nest. She starts watching the eggs. One of the eggs gets kicked out. She gets emotionally involved as well. She's not watching it just interestingly. She does care. Yeah. And originally she doesn't want them there. She tries to, she breaks up their nest. Oh, symbolism. Yeah. But then they build it back and she's like, oh, well, you've made the effort. One of the eggs disappears and there's another egg that seems a different colour. when the egg cracks open, she's like, that doesn't look like a pigeon.

Even it was a bit on the nose symbolism. And I wondered if that was a translation thing, I was like, I wonder if in Spanish that doesn't feel as, do not want to use this word about this book, but clunky, in Spanish it wouldn't have felt so like, oh, I get it, the nesters of my children. I kind of loved how closely it symbolized it, but then maybe,

because there's lots of different sort of stories within a story in this, isn't there? When you're really conscious of something, you see it everywhere. It felt to me like a person who is obsessed at the moment with what is it to become. a mother. And you know, it's not the day after she got sterilized. It's years afterwards. But her best friend is going through a process of becoming a parent. So she's seeing it everywhere. And because she's thinking about it so much, rather than just getting rid of pigeons on her roof,

she's like, oh, they're making a family. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, because she's even analyzing her own mother a lot, isn't she? Like, she's seeing it everywhere. She's ripping apart everything and gluing it back together. And I thought that was really subtly done. But I know, and I've said this before I said this to you and Monica a few weeks ago, but if you've had an unhappy parent, the choice to become a parent or not, it's really steered by that. If you've had a parent who couldn't cope,

didn't want to cope, or kept telling you, you've ruined my life. Like, you're really battling with that because you do think you're ending a cycle of bad parents. Oh my God, that bit with the mum where she's like, yeah, actually, I think you made a great choice not having kids. They really ruin your life. And Laura's like, thank you.

Did you watch Succession? Because there's that incredible line with Shiv and her mum. Harriott, Walter, smoking saying you mustn't have kids. You'd be a terrible mother. A terrible mother telling her daughter don't be a mother. You know what you're like. Yes. And again, I love that she, like, I think what you say, I'm so apt.

Like, she really breaks apart motherhood and like an eggshell. Thanks, guys, A plus over here. Sometimes it is a shame that we're not still at university. When we do this podcast and I make my notes, I was like, I peaked at A-Level. English A-Level was my peak. Degree, I was like, what do you mean think on my own? I can just deconstruct your book. Like, that's what my brain has been trained to do.

I can't then add Marxist theory to it. To come back to the nest, what becomes clear is that it wasn't a pigeon, it was a cuckoo. So the pigeons are raising a baby who's not their own. And the bit that I absolutely adored is there's a moment. So you're kind of on the site, you're kind of like, oh, this awful cuckoo. and they took over the nest and they got rid of the egg and you sort of feel sorry, the cuckoo comes back and the nest is gone and she says, I felt sorry for a little creature,

although perhaps the whole world, myself included, would have made me feel that way this morning. And I was like, yeah, no one asks to be fucking born. Like, you know, that's what it all comes back to, mothering of like, should I have a child, should I not? Am I a good mother or my bad mother? But we all understand what it is to be a child going, I didn't ask for any of these situations. And I'd never thought about cuckoos in this sense before.

but that in terms of the majority of creatures, if they're young, demand care, it's just genetically programmed, unless you eat them, you know, because some mammals do, some mammals just eat, they're young if it's not a good time, if they're stressed or whatever,

but they need the nutrients. I have had no sleep. Come in. ketchup, salt, pepper. There is, it's amazing, but the mammal's body just knows that, yeah, yeah, not now. I can't feed you.

But with the cuckoo's, evolution has allowed their, them to just go, just to not care. Yeah. Just to not care. But to care enough, actually, maybe a cuckoo woman is like, I don't think I can do this. My life is so great and I'm worried I'm going to be selfish.

Pigeons are so reliable. Like, is it that cuckoos go, we're bad moms? I guess we do see a lot of cuckus in the movies. They all go to L.A. They go to L.A. They annoy people. They live selfishly. No, they're very selfishly.

Me, with these hips. And they make the pigeons raise it. And I mean, it is happening, isn't it? When Laura takes in Nico. and is really maternal. I've got to admit that bit didn't annoy me. Like obviously I was like, oh,

Laura's really nice person, obviously. But, and actually, you know, it happens in Olive. Like she falls for these stepkids that she has. But that, I wanted to read,

I want to read a novel at some point, and this wasn't going to be the one, still loved it, where a woman doesn't want kids and she doesn't even really like kids that much. She doesn't want to nurture anyone. I wonder if that's something that we fear, especially because we,

we want people to like our characters, even very flawed women, difficult women, but there's still a point where we want to show. They're not heartless or they do empathise. I think it's interesting. That's what I liked. I liked the NICO story because it didn't feel like, it didn't, taking NICO felt like a human reaction, not a female reaction. It didn't feel loving.

Yeah, it felt like this person really, this woman needs my help. It felt practical. I'm sort of in love with this woman. Well, that's quite practical with the feet. and just like dressing and taking him out for a walk like a dog almost. Adult responsibility. What do you do if the person next door is a neglected child and the mum is struggling? And also she said like there is that moment where, so we should say next door,

the mum has been an abusive relationship, the husband dies. She's now an abusive relationship with her son. And the son kind of replaced and he's sort of seven. Yeah. And at one point gets a baseball bat and is trying to hit her. So it's really violent what's happening next door and she can hear everything. So yeah, it felt like taking Niko. almost was...

Well, there's such a turning point because, number one, it happens a lot before... It's not like it happens once and then she goes next door. No, no, he's constantly having... It's the night she hears him cry. Yeah.

And actually how she hears him cry, it's told again in very animal terms, I heard a whimper. So this is after he's had a horrible row with his mum, but she's been sitting outside on her phone for hours. Yeah, smoking. And his seven. So sad.

We hate him. Yeah. But his seven, and this is how she... I heard a whimper through the wall, I may bed. Then another and another one moans with no intelligible words like the howls of a young wolf looking for the pack, but no one came to his aid. That's such incredible writing because all of a sudden you're reminded he's a little asshole, but he's this vulnerable child. And children, no matter how they behave, it's adult's responsibility. And I think it gives her the responsibility.

That's what it felt like to me. It didn't feel like a nurturing person getting a soft spot for someone. it felt like someone really going, there's practical problems. I cannot walk away from. But it is interesting because that is parenting. That is parenting. But they are sometimes awful, terrible, like so unbelievable.

And so are you. And you are the person on the doorstep on your phone. You have to be the other. Saying, I won't talk to that little fucker, you can deal with them. Yeah. And it's,

I thought, you know, the description of his mum was just, again, heartbreaking. who's kind of letting him, she can't stop him shouting. She doesn't know what to do because she had this abusive husband.

But then she sent him away to his sister. But she's scared of him. She's terrified of him. I just thought it was also funny that just before that, she's reading Anna Karenina. She's about a woman who left her eight-year-old son for a lover. So there is some stuff actually. I'm now realising there is quite a lot of A-level.

Oh, yeah. I do like that, actually. I think you're right. And back to the bird nest thing. It's like a part of me was sort of fantasising. like what if we lived in a world where it really did take a village to raise someone and, you know, you live in this community or collective where, because that's what I fantasise about as being a child-free woman is like having a nest that's like a safe space and like, you know, if my

niece or nephew, like, wants to run away from home and spend the week with me, like, I literally would love that. And I probably wouldn't be that, you know, maternal or nourishing, but, but I would, want to be a safe space. But it's funny to be, it's how you define maternal and nourishing because it does take a village because what they need, is somewhere where a mother figure, you know, they don't tell everything to and that you do the like, you do all the hugging and the nourishing. And then they need other people who they can be honest with.

And that's also... And who see them as themselves. There's an amazing... And that's extremely... Not necessarily, you know, it comes under the umbrella of maternal, but I think that's what people mean by it takes a village, is like the mum can not do everything. Mum can tuck you in and hug you,

but it's actually they need more than that. They need the other people who see them not as just a baby being a child. And also it's a relationship with two way needs. Having people who need a lot less from you. There's an amazing line in the film, 20th century women, where I can't remember the character's name, but Annette Benning's Greta Gerwig has taken a picture of

Annette Benning's son and it's so incredible for her to look at because she says, I never get to see him like the world does. And that's what children and teenagers need is to be themselves and to your parent you are always, well you're my little baby. Or you're always

or there's a sense of ownership maybe or thinking you know them better than they know themselves. Yeah, definitely. And you can kind of dream with other people, I think, or say, I want to do this one day. And even if your parents are lovely and supportive, it's still like, oh, I'm telling you my secrets kind of thing. Yeah.

Yeah, when I said to my family, I wanted to be an actor, my mum said, you cry too much. That's exactly what you should be an actor. Exactly. Yeah, I turned that on. My mum said, there we go. I was sort of childless until I was 40s, and I really did think I was across the line

from not having children. I made myself feel better by thinking I will have so much energy, more energy and resources for the other young people that I know because I can offer them, like you say, a space because it won't be filled with my own children. Yeah, definitely. And it's really weird how I feel like I have a knowing, which is like I know I don't want them and who knows, quite frankly, there could be a plot twist, we don't know. But like I'm pretty sure.

but I know, and it sounds weird, but it's like I kind of want to reach more people in a way, like with the stuff I'm doing. And I feel like if I was looking after one little person or two, I would feel like, I don't know. It's almost like a flower or a plant in water, not getting enough water. Like I wouldn't be nourished. That is what parenting is. And I just feel like, don't be afraid to say it. That is what parenting is. I think I would be really unhappy.

And so I, and I, you know, there's all these child-free kind of parents. postal women like Elizabeth Gilbert and like Oprah or whatever. And like you don't have to like be this like shining light if you don't have kids. But I do love the idea of like taking that love and like you're going to put it somewhere. Yeah. Yeah. And also and if it's self-directed, that's still love. Like there's there's no sort of badge for and I didn't brush my teeth for two years because I was looking after my toddler or people who are happy are much better members of society, people who are unhappy, can be detrimental. And I think it's important to be honest, because I would agree with you, there's definitely

times having now got two small children, I'm undernourished. I do not have the capacity to do the things I want to do. And, you know, I'm struggling, people get let down, things fall off the table that you should have done. That does, again, doesn't mean, I, hey kids, if you're listening, I don't regret it. I'm happy, but I am happy. I definitely feel like I made the right choice. I really wanted kids.

but I would always be honest about the sacrifices, the balance, the work-life that comes with two people existing in your space, of course they need love and they need care and that could have gone somewhere else. So it is a choice for our generation. There isn't anyone, well, particularly women, but there aren't any women who write who have children who don't wonder what could I have created if I hadn't had children.

Oh my God, yeah, the time. Because anyone creating anything alongside family commitments, whatever they are. Some people care for parents, obviously, or care for other people in their lives. But women who write with children, the through line is them thinking, if I'd been a man.

Well, the joke around my friends who are moms who are right, is like, we all need wives. We need a wife to do all the other stuff that we're also doing. And I have a very, very supportive husband who does lots of lots of childcare and support, and still is difficult. We should talk about Elina, the other side of motherhood.

So her friend who didn't want children struggles to get pregnant, eventually gets pregnant and then finds out during a scan that the brain of her daughter is not forming properly. Yeah, so there's stages with Alina. Elina felt very real to me.

Alina, I think he's based on her friend. She says at the beginning, thank you to her friend Amelia for her story. So she wants the reader to know this really happened to someone. She started the book by interviewing her friend. And she wanted to talk about this story and how her friend had coped. So that's definitely, yeah, Laura is the fiction side of it, really.

So she feels really well constructed right from the beginning of being a person who has an artist, doesn't want children, and then meets someone and is in a certain relationship and goes from, we're trying to, we're desperate and going through IVF. And I wonder, I do wonder what happens when you're told you can't. Yes, that's true. Because then it's not like, oh, it's chance now. It's either I make it happen or I do absolutely everything I can. I think that, I think it changes people's personality.

Well, definitely the rules of the game are changed, don't they? It's like it's not a choice then, is it? It's like it's also your choice, but also you couldn't if you wanted to anyway. That's, don't have mentally change the situation, I'm sure. They are also told in the book that their daughter will die after she's born. 100% every doctor says that she's going to die so before ines as they call her is born yeah she's very much a pregnant woman having to grow a baby who she believes

will die who's pregnant miraculously because she was told she wasn't going to be able to have children and she's been through IVF and it seems like that in Mexico where they are there wasn't any sort of health service yeah it's all private I think yeah very expensive very very expensive probably not going to happen for them so she's originally dealing with that. And in all of you have a character is going through infertility treatment as well while other people around her seem to be getting pregnant in sort of, you know, quotation marks easily.

Yeah. But without struggle, without doubt. Yeah. And she retreats into herself massively and can't be around anyone, can't be online, really can't. She's just triggered by everything. But, but Alina's character in this book, I mean, oh my God, I was just in bits because... I was so sorry. I just... I just... But it was, I love it. I love it. I love it. I love. I love a good cry. I like you to cinema on my own and cry. But you can. And we can. But it's just this idea of, I mean, I've never read anything like it. Like you're, you're literally creating something and mourning it before it's even been born. And, oh my God, and like the

children's room and how she was like unpacking all these clothes and then packing them back away again. I was just like, I don't know how anyone lived through that. So at the moment she says they had a cot shipped over from Denmark because it's the best cot and then immediately being like, It's not going to make it to car. At sort of 12 weeks when she goes for a scan, she's told the gender. Yeah. And she comes out from the toilet and she's so excited. She tells the receptionist we're having a girl.

Right from the beginning, I think what's really important for Elena's story is this story is a tragedy anyway, you get pregnant, any way that it's your child. But this is a miracle. Yes, it's a miracle baby. A really, really, really, really wanted baby. And I think what happens, and that's the struggle with infertility treatment with IVF, is that then when you then suffer. for a loss through it. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's so unfair because that's the bit you haven't even computed because you couldn't even get crossed the line of how do we even get pregnant. Is it like, it's almost like a double loss, right? Because like you, you,

you already feel like you've lost something. So it's like, how is this happening to me again? Yeah. Yeah. Or it's like how, who could, who could, who could, who could write this? I know. She could be so unfair. She says above, this is about Alina, above all, she felt afraid, but how can we escape from something we are afraid of when we are carrying it within us? Yeah. Yeah. The scene in this. killed me is when her grief therapist, so they recommended, it's actually incredible advice. There's an incredible Buddha story about a grieving woman going to visit to Buddha saying, can you resuscitate my son?

And Buddha's saying, I can if you get me a mustard seed from a house that's never experienced grief. And then they spend a year going around houses, basically crying with other mothers and hugging them and realizing that everyone has been through it, but they're carrying on and that's the lesson. So the grief therapist is telling them You have to start grieving her now Even though she's not going to die until she's born And she had a sort of She recommends that she dances

Yeah Makes a playlist for her Yeah Because you're going to go Yeah I've nearly off to her Yeah Because your baby can hear And they're alive

And like Feeding your baby moving inside you And that's what she keeps saying to them Is that this person is alive And then when they brutally say That's just you Yeah you're keeping them alive And it's like

Alina may be able her. Elina not only made her, but Elina went and had IVF treatment and made that miracle and now she's the only reason that Inners is alive. And she's known her since she was a tiny little bean. It wasn't one of those things we find out of three months. Did you feel this got you more because you have been through?

I think having a IVF but also not just because you're having a baby wiggling inside you as you read this. When someone's talking about it and also I have seen my son's brain scan so I know he's definitely got a full brain like size wise. Not bragging. But that's why I was worried about other people listening to it because it's just such an odd phase. It's weird going about your life anyway with another mammal inside you wriggling,

responding to sounds, the stuff that she says, you know, when they're saying the baby will be deaf. And it's like, but the baby, if you drop something, they jerk, they wake up and they do wiggle to songs. I love that she makes the playlist, which then Laura listens, which then Laura gives Nico to listen to you one day and it's full of like quite upbeat. And also, as I'm surprised, it's full of upbeat. And it's that thing with grief of, like, grief is 50% joy and 50% sadness. Because there is a joy that this baby even exists. And that Elina is trying to express that joy and that sadness within a playlist.

Well, it was a joyful moment in the book. That's what's incredible about the writing. Yeah. Is I could see her doing it and it being a wonderful thing because... I'm so sorry, I made you read this book. Because then she had her baby. So, yeah, we should say, she has the baby. But I mean, she had it while she was dancing.

Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, I see, yeah, yeah. For whatever reason, if someone you loved to care about is given a diagnosis, there are still moments where they're there. Yeah. And they call it anticipatory grief and it's common. God, they've named everything in grief, haven't they carried out? Yes, they have. Oh, apart from, hang on.

That bit isn't, that bit you're going to read, I've got something to say about as well. Okay. What, there's no word for parents? Go on, you read it. Okay. There's a word to describe someone who loses their spouse and a word for children who are left without parents. there is no word, however, for a parent who loses their child. Unlike previous centuries in which child mortality was very high,

it's not normal for this to occur in our time. It is something so feared, so unacceptable, that we have chosen not to name it. That is true. There's also no word for someone who's lost a sibling. Okay. But it's due with child death, though, still. Well, not necessarily if you've lost your sibling as an adult. You could lose your parents in your 50s,

and you're still people to say, I've been orphaned. Okay. So that was the only thing that I wrote down. Also, because sibling that comes a lot with people who've lost their siblings are like, there isn't a word for me. And siblings are also, obviously, it's not a hierarchy. Do we know if there is in Spanish? I don't know, actually.

That's a good point. But there isn't a word for a person who's lost a child, and it is considered because there is no word. Like, it's such an awful terror. It's the worst. And constantly in grief theory, you are, like, there is no hierarchy of grief. Grief is grief, apart from child loss. Child loss is trumps everything because it's against the natural order of how a thing should be.

And we all know that wherever you come from, whatever your financial, religious, social background, you or know that children shouldn't die before a parent. So yes, there isn't a word for it. And even though there were so many beautiful moments, I felt like I was on such a journey with her in the book because it was not linear and some of it really didn't make sense. Like that bit where she's like, go in as like, leave, leave,

like basically wishing. Yeah. And that's kind of like the taboo, isn't it? Of not wanting your child or, you know, that bit really shocked me because she's basically saying like, actually I don't want you anymore. But that's obviously grief as well. Yeah, and I would say it didn't shock me as someone who's had a lot of grief conversations

because what Inez is born and what they seem to be saying is she's living, but it's a completely vegetative state. And what is common is for people to say, that's no life. And so as a mum, she's like, I don't want you to have, that's not a, like, what is that? That's me, like they say, changing your sanitary towels at 14. That's me pushing you around. She has very powerful imagery of herself as a mother. the mother of an adult child who will depend upon her from everything and...

And that's fear, because what is unsaid in that is she will die and then what? But also that she will live a life without pleasure. But not in as, I mean, it's like you can mother, you can mother a child until, you know, as an adult, if they have obviously special needs or certain disabilities. But eventually, and this is a big thing with that situation is the mother will die. Who will care for that child after that? and love them the way that they have loved them. Yeah.

That's very, that's terrifying for people with children in that situation. Because they're so, it's vulnerable, it is a vulnerable adult. Yeah. And so I think that's what, when she's saying, like, don't live in us, she's in the hospital. It is a deep, deep fear of like, what, why would you choose this? And she says that a lot, why choose this life? So we should say, Inez doesn't die as expected. So she's told repeatedly by experts.

that because, so it's encephaly, so Innes has such a small amount of her brain, it's basically the very, very base functions at the back that she won't be able to see or hear and that she will be born and as the mother's body isn't breathing for her anymore, she will stop breathing and she's told that that will happen sort of on her body, they'll place her daughter, she'll be able to see her daughter, there'll be pictures taken, her parents can come in and meet her child, but that she'll be lasting, what, minutes, hours.

Yeah. And instead, what happens is she has a C-section and everyone sort of talking without her and then takes the baby out of the room and she keeps being told the baby's okay. Not knowing what that means. Yeah. It's just why it's still kind of judge to the doctors a bit. Not going to lie.

No, I mean, you get that the feeling of fury that some of those doctors are so brutal and so blunt. And then when she starts doing that anecdotal research, she finds out there's lots of children that have lived up to, you know, seven or eight with this. You can speak. Or have 15 words or who can't climb stairs. And these doctors just said, no, absolutely no way.

And one of them even says to her, I wouldn't say this to you, like, unless I absolutely thought your child was going to die. Why would I say this to you? And it's, because medicine is, you know, an art, it's not a science. Like, they don't always know. Medicines are soft science. They're doing the best. Yeah, you know, painting's harder.

What can I say? And I know it's so cliche to say this, but. It does put things in perspective this book, as in there's a line that also made me burst out into tears. That's basically Alina saying, like, all I would love to do is for her to blow bubbles and go underwater. Yeah. And I was like, oh, my God, like, that is something that I'm sure a lot of us don't even think about. We don't even think about all the first time we blew bubbles. But, like, to her, that is literally her whole world.

And it's like, God, how lucky you are if you do do that. Yeah. What you focus on if you're infertile for a really long time, you sort of fetishise it. So I think a lot about making pat lunches. And I don't know why, because I can make myself pat lunches. I can make my stupid husband pat lunches. And I can make other children pat lunches. But the idea, and actually it's drudgery, so why fetishise it?

But the idea of like chopping grapes in half and like having stuff in the fridge so you can put a selection of things together. It's really odd that and bedtime stories. Like you do, like, zone in. It's really odd, yeah. And there's a certain thing will feel like, okay, there's magic in that. And I think you're right for Alina just, it also makes you think, you know, as a parent that people will have much grander, like, oh, I want them to be this or grow up to be this. And Alina is like, I just want her to be able to blow bubbles. And so Inez does live.

They get a nanny. We should talk about Marlena, who kind of comes in. And again, another aspect of motherhood. This is a woman who is not related to Inez, the baby, but starts to. completely look after her because Alina this broke my heart. Has to go back to work 12 weeks after her daughter is born with all these complications

because she needs the health insurance. That made me want to throw the book. And she's got a credit card that she can't. And oh yes, she's also internet shopping. Yes. For her anxiety. Her and her husband both went back to work full time, three months, which means someone else is with your child 24.

Lena. And they say, you know, they need a very specialist nanny. They need hardcore medical care round the clock. And Marlina becomes this, she's an incredible, she bonds within us, everything's perfect, except Alina, and this maybe spoke to me very much of like, Mother Gill is feeling like, well, then I'm not, I'm not the mother. Even though I have born this child, grown this child, I'm not the real mum, because I'm not there. There's that scene where they go on holiday, and she goes into Marlina's room and the babies in the nappy, just like head on her chest.

And she's naked. And she's naked. I mean, I don't think anyone be all right with seeing the kid in that situation. But then she had her own stuff, didn't she? Yes. Yeah. But also how do you take such loving care? Yeah. If it's just your job, I don't think you could be that boundary. Yeah.

If you're sort of clocking off at certain times or going, I want a pay rise. Yeah, it's not a job. It's a vocation. Yeah. And the other side of it, the struggling thing that I've had trying to work and child care is that when it's someone's job and they just want money, you don't want to leave your kids with them. Yeah. It's such a odd thing when it's not someone's proper job.

But they do it because it pays more than. working in a shop. Yeah. Yeah. Because it should do, because it's more responsibility. You want them to pretend they love your kid, but they don't. They want to be on their phone and your kid to be asleep. That would be really anxiety-inducing, yeah. It's horrific.

It's horrific having to leave your child because you have to do a job, knowing full well that person is fine. Who cares less than a distant cousin who's never met your kid? It reminded me a bit of someone I know used to be a PA for a load of rich people, and they would go into their homes, and it would be like the nanny would be, you know, the kid would be asleep on the nanny's lap. Like they would be really close. So it would, and my friend would be like, I would always think the nanny was the mum.

Yeah. And then it would be like, oh, no, it's that woman in the kitchen would like glamorous dresses on and long red nails and, you know, having a great time. But, you know, literally patting the child on the head and being like, right, night, I'm going out now. And like, that's a life choice. That's fine. I'm not judging it. But it was just that thing of like, God, imagine seeing another. woman be so close to your child?

Like how would that make you feel? That's what I feel with this book. She's asking again and again, what is motherhood? Like, is motherhood taking your neighbour's child? Is motherhood, you know, having to have your children when you're younger and then becoming a feminist like her mother does and sort of not wanting anything to do with them? Is motherhood like being, like there's all, like, the thing,

it's like she breaks down how that word doesn't, isn't doing enough. Yeah. The expectation, even with the pigeons actually, the cuckoo mother. Yeah. Someone did care for your child. You did the bit that you're contractually obliged to, which is you popped them in a nest. We knew someone was going to look after them.

When she's feeling guilty, I think this is Alina talking to Laura about like, oh, I feel so awful, about having a nanny. And so her friend is trying to say to her, like, you know, naturally connections are going to be made between children and these substitute mothers, Monica went on.

But I don't think it's a bad thing, or that the roles are reversed so exhausted mothers can get a bit of rest. People used to hire another woman to breastfeed their babies, didn't they? I just mean that motherhood has always been very porous. The females of lots of other species take cares of other females young. And I was like, that word, the porosity of motherhood. Like, we still try to pin it down of like, no, a mother is the person who vaginally gives birth to this person. And that is, you know, deviates from that.

There's something wrong with that woman. Or if you're a woman who, you know, even if you've done that, then doesn't want to do the other things. Yeah. I mean, even like, we took place like, I've had two C-sections. like even from their birth, you are judged. Like, and they will say, did you have a C-section or a normal birth? Yeah. Constantly.

And that's why I use the phrase vaginal birth, C-section birth. But that's from the moment of, or again, how were they conceived, was it? Like, there's, and I think that's a female thing. I think that's the way that we consistently want women to fit into a narrative that fits other people's expectations. And I think that's what this book does so beautifully, it just raises the question without telling you quite what anyone thinks. but it's just like here's Alina, here's Laura, here's her mother, here's Marlina, the nanny, like. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I tell you a bit I absolutely love.

Yes. Going on from this is when Alina, so she's still pregnant, she has been told this terrible news about her child not going to be able to survive. And she's smoking with Laura, and she says to her you made the right decision not to have children. Yeah. And the line she uses, I loved this line so much because this resonated with so much how I felt, number one, anxiety during the pregnancy, but then also being responsible. for a child. I think you were right now to have kids, she said suddenly, lighting a cigarette. Being a

mother means being worried about someone else all the time. I had, especially when, you know, who's really young and so I was sleep deprived and a bit manic, I had a sort of tattoo sentence in my brain going around all the time going, love is terror, love is terror, love is terror, love is terror, because I couldn't believe, and this actually goes back to write the prologue of the book. Oh, the prologue. If you make a person, you make a person who will die. Yeah. And no one talks to you about that bit. Because that's not part of the pat lunches and the blow in the bubbles and everything. It's like, oh, you are suddenly, she starts the book by saying,

watching a baby as it sleeps is to contemplate the fragility of all life. And you don't know that until you're bloody responsible for one. And it's going to die one day. That's why I hate loathe, the phrase, grief is the price we pay for love. Because you can grieve someone that you... Who said that, Brian Adams. Grief is the price we pay for love. She's actually quoted as the Queen saying it, but I don't actually know if that's true.

Who is you talking about? One, you can grieve people you don't love, but I firmly believe grief is the price you pay for life. Like, this is the deal. If you were living and talking and doing this. That's how my parents explained it to me as a child when I said, well, why do we have to die? I said, otherwise no one would ever be born. Yeah. And even if you choose to be child free in this situation, you will not be protected from the loss.

And that's what I think so interesting about this book as well, that Alina's journey of grief is happening. But Laura is as, you know, is invested in this child and the friends, Leah, is invested in this child. Like, you can feel the love around Inners. And it isn't just Alina's. Obviously, Alina is suffering the most, absolutely. But this idea that everyone is affected by life, everyone is affected by death. Laura, what felt very realistic is that she sort of cut out about it. Like Alina doesn't answer her phone sometimes.

It's not like she's always calling her to tell her what's going on. There sometimes it's impossible for her to find the words to tell her. her, the results that they've had or what's happened. And that reminded me of, Olive, what you captured so brilliantly of, like, the friendships of how women float in and out of each other's lives sometimes. And how intimacy is very easy at a youthful stage. Yes. Smoking, drinking, looking at a river, travelling the world.

Yeah. And it becomes really tricky later on in life. Definitely. There's that scene where they meet up and Laura's explaining that Alina's not really there. Like, she's not, she can't even make eye contact with her. She's just in a different dimension. which I'm sure she was and I do write about that in Olive

where fundamentally when your friend has had a child you don't understand an element of them and they don't understand the element of you because you are different people like when you become a mother like obviously you transform and you're a different version of yourself so you are kind of leaving behind that friendship it's a grief there's definitely a grief but of course

it also comes back and and I really wanted to show in Olive that actually, weirdly you can become closer as well because my friends who are mothers can tell me things, they wouldn't tell other mothers. Like there's a beauty in the difference as well. Yeah, there's the exact reflection of what you said earlier about millennials that being a new mum, you have no time to think and reflect.

So actually, I don't know how you would communicate to anyone, how you were. I think some people, and I actually haven't found this, and I don't know if that's age or because I was child-free for, such a long, or childless for such a long time that I didn't identify as a mum, like really strongly. But that's why sometimes people slip into relationships with other moms because there's a shorthand, because they don't have to describe things to them. Because there is, there's no time for reflection. And sometimes, like, I really have to remind myself that I am like the Laura character who's like sitting on my balcony looking at the birth. And then I'm texting my

friend like, you know, I'm very aware of it now so I don't do this, but I could be like, you know you haven't replied to this WhatsApp group about someone's birthday. And it's like, yeah, but they don't have time for that. And like that's not a priority. Like, that's okay. It's really hard to understand the loss of time. I definitely had that as well. Like my brother had kids before me.

And I remember asking him, I remember going around and he had a kid who did not sleep. And I said something like, have you not seen that film at the cinema? And he just looked to me and was like, I mean, it's a fucking cinema. And I remember going home and thinking, I mean, it's not hard to go to the cinema. Like, I just didn't. book Q&A, there was two questions I couldn't answer. One of them was how would I cast my book and I couldn't think of a single actor's name who wasn't in Harry Potter. And then the second one, they said, what did you think of the Barbie movie? And again, it was just that thing of like,

oh, you wonderful young people, you have no idea how restricted a life can become so quickly. And that's what I gave, friend of mind did the math to me. She was like, we have to get a babysitter that costs this and then this and this and this. And I was like, God, it's costing you like 100 quits to go to the cinema. But also you're too tired. Actually, if it came to 6 o'clock and someone says, do you not want to go, you go, thank God for that. I only saw the Barbie movie because my husband booked a ticket because he's a filmmaker, and he was like, I have to see this. It's going to be all anyone's talking about.

So we agreed, okay, you are allowed to go out. That's fine. I'll do bedtime. He then got food poisoning. So I was like, well, then I will go. So you've got to go? That's the only reason. And I sat by.

I didn't even know that you'd seen it. Yeah. Yeah. I went by myself. I sat at the back of a packed cinema. next to a couple. A really nice time. And I felt, I felt a bit uncomfortable, but they didn't mind.

We all laughed at the same time. But literally it was such a twist of, like, quirk of fate that I even got to see that film. But Emma, we don't even watch TV because we don't want to watch programs that make us stay up a bit later. So even like watching the end of a program, 15, 20 minutes, or the worst, starting another episode. So having had so recently a normal person's life where you binge watch and then you're a bit sleepy the next so you have another coffee. Going from that to, no,

should we just watch the office again? Because we will see, when we're tired, we switch it off. Yeah. What time do you go to bed? Nine, if possible,

or earlier. But I've got a leg in both camps. So I was a terrible childless friend to people with children. I used to slag people off. Why, why do I always have to go to them? I wrote stand-up about Carriad

when Carad was pregnant, saying that her belly was getting bigger to push me away. And then our other friend... I'm fine, guys. Said, you can't say that. that because her pregnancy wasn't about me. I've got to say I love your standoff about this. And there's that a really great clip of...

Oh, thanks, Emma. Sorry, but it's... Why don't we bring my child on it? It's so timeless. It's so universal. But that bit as well around doing QI and having a baby. But now what I have, because I've... Now I'm very smart when she says things.

I'm like, is it hard? I thought it was. One of our friends who doesn't have kids yet the other day texted me something really insensitive. and I said to Carriard like, look at this, did I do this? And she's like, yep, 100%. How funny. Because sometimes you, I mean, this person was trying to solve a problem for me,

but they just had no understanding. So it comes from a really nice place. So you can't say to them, fuck off, that pisses me off. But what's funny is it reminds me, I think that's a human thing. We're always trying to connect. And it reminds me, of course, what is it, Carriad, of grief. Because when... I'm going to get a little bell.

Drinking game. A drinking game. That's it. You can't do that yet. Because when you said that short hand of new mums, it's like, you get it. I don't, you're not going to say it. And the same with grief or people like in breakups. You're looking for that person.

Like, this just happened to me. You get it, right? I don't have to explain to you why. There's definitely a thing. Both my parents are alive. There's definitely a thing with people who have lost a parent that the only people. Oh, God. The insensitive things people say when both their parents are alive.

Like, yeah. I think I'd be fine when my parents died. Do you? Yeah. But again, it's just, I think human beings are insensitive. That's why I told us to say about my brother. I was insensitive.

We have a limit to our imaginations and our empathy, but we don't think we do. We think we can feel everything. And on the reverse, I know it's not really the same. It's like not weighted, but like I get a lot of, like, I get some of my friends being quite short with me and being like, it's easy for you. Yeah, of course. Yeah, it's like, yeah, it kind of is. But what does it mean easy for you? Like, kind of bitterness of like, it's easy for you.

It's easy for you. You have way more time. or, you know, or writer friends who are like, well, it's easy for you, I don't have time. And it's like, but there is an elephant in the room, which is like, there is an element of choice, though. Yeah. And also, but human beings should never be going around telling other people their experience of life is easier. Like, isn't that, like, rule number one? And I don't think it's easy, because lack of time, it's not like, it's easier for you.

You just have more time. I have way more time. Like the caveat, like when people are like, oh, you've written a lot. like, yeah, because I don't go to the gym and I don't have kids. But also, when I had more time, I still did as much faffing as I do now. Like, so that's what is interesting to me. I thought, oh, well, once I become a mother, I'll sort my life out. I didn't.

So it's like you're still yourself. It's like you always say to me, once you're famous, you're still you. Once you're a mum, you are still you as a mum. And if you choose not to you, you're still you. And it's like what you do with that time is the choice. I don't think it's easier. And also, the lady Smith writes amazingly about that, by the way, like, creativity got got better when she became a mum.

Lots of people find that with restrictions. And also vice versa, we still must celebrate the people who use their time really well and rights, whether they've got children or not. My ex-boyfriend, and we were together when he came to the realisation, he didn't want children. And it was because his best friend had children and had a baby first, you know. And the hugest thing he kept saying he doesn't have time. And the realisation was he couldn't do that with his life and didn't want to, didn't

want to offer it. Yeah. That is an important thing with female friendships and those who choose to have kids, have kids or those who can't have kids to understand. Like you said, to just understand. Again, there's no hierarchy. It's just different. I do think, though, that my life is easier at the moment. No, I won't have it. With them, I'm not easy. I want to, like, go on the record to be like, sometimes I'm just like, they're in a, they're struggling, actually. And that's a cry for help. It's not like them trying to push me away. And sometimes we talk about it about how, like, there are different seasons in life and they're in a season of motherhood. And that doesn't. mean they're going to be, they're not going to be incredibly creative, like, once the child grows up a bit, things like that. But I don't want you to have to be defensive of your position, because I feel like, so, that's, if that's true of you now, that's really great. But there'll be other people who are child free by choice, who might not be having a great time for a multitude of reasons.

And we can't just have this sweeping stroke of, well, you don't get woken up in the night by a baby. So, you know, you're in a privileged position. Yeah. Have had a baby and aren't. Oh, just be unhappy. Or mothers who are like, this is the only thing I've ever wanted. And find it easy. Yeah, yeah. And that's what's the joy of the playground is you're suddenly with these people that you have a short hand with, but you realize you're so fucking different to every one of them.

And even though like you're all mothers and you could all have a good, confident conversation about whether that OTI bar is better than that OTI bar, that actually what makes you happy, I've seen women who are just, you can see their cup is filled because they have had children. That is all they needed. And others who are like, it has destroyed me. Like we're humans, we're individuals. And again, that's the thing about going back to it being a gamble.

Yeah, you cannot predict what will happen to you hormonally. You don't know what your birth will be like. You don't know how you'll be affected by all the hormones of milk coming in. All of these kind of things. And then they get older. And there's a whole other world. And the health of your child. These are all variables.

And that's what I think is so amazing about that Alina's storyline of hold. As a reader, you're holding Alina's hand in this such a vulnerable. state of like this baby was a miracle and now the worst the worst thing imaginable she thought would be not having a child and now this has come and she says that amazing thing at the end when she kind of reaches a calm and acceptance with it that Innes has taught them things that they never could have understood and it's very beautiful how they write about Innes at the end. Inez suffers fits as her brain is growing new on connections from the physio it then up to the likelihood that she'll have these fits

and with the fits she loses the abilities she's got through the physio so there's a point where you think that I found heartbreaking this is the end for her but we end the book a point where it's actually very positive and she's not stable but she's improving she's learning how to do things she seems more robust yeah she's wearing her little purple glasses oh that image yeah I know she's sitting up with this little baby during this book you just want to squidge her yeah yeah she got such a sense

of a baby who every other character was saying has no life is not important, but you felt in a life. Yeah. What she writes so well is how Alina, I mean, and to a lesser extent, her husband, she was their child. Her face, her little hands, everything about her. She was so loved before she was even born.

So she was so real to us. She was. We're coming up to the end. Yes. I was going to say, have you read Patricia Lockwood's book? I haven't read this book. You haven't read this one. It's just another one.

It's about her sister's, child. Why are we not talking about this? No, I've got a copy of that. I didn't know it was about that actually. Yeah. Okay. So it's again, very different book to this,

but in terms of, yeah, all of that love for a baby. Oh, I'll read that. Yeah, I love that. You will cry. We're recommending some really tough books. But sometimes I love this book, thank you, because I don't think I would have come across it. This is a really, the only reason I picked it up at Hay Festival was I saw it so much on

Instagram. I saw quite a few bookie people I follow saying, what a translation amazing. And it's a Fitzcaraldo edition. It's got that bright blue cover. And I was at Hay and I was like, oh, that looks like a book that I wouldn't normally pick up that I'd never heard of that writer. So I was very glad. Do you have a last line? I do. I do. And actually, you've read the first half of this passage, but this is Monica, who's the expert on cuckoos. And this is Monica. I just thought this was something for us all to think about sometimes in relationship with our own mothers. last line as well. Okay. We have two last lines. This is the second last line.

They're discussing the parasitic nature of laying your eggs in someone else's nest and why do the parents, why do they bring up this egg? Because she's saying, I think they know it's not their egg. Yeah, yeah. They still choose to. I think there comes a point when all mothers realize this. We have the children that we have, not the ones we imagined we'd have, or the ones we'd have liked, and they're the ones we end up having to

contend with. It's a two-way journey. We don't choose our parents. We don't choose their children. There are many lessons there. Both ways if we choose to learn them. And I just wanted to quote the actual last line because I loved it so much. Don't be nervous. Whatever has to happen will happen. No one gets out of that. I love that as the ending. Emma, thank you so much. Emma, thank you so much, Emma. I love digging into this topic and I love the nuance and it was just fantastic. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for listening to the Weirdo's Book Club. You can find more about Emma at emma ganon.com.com. UK and you can follow her on Instagram at Emma Gannon. Her book, Olive, is available to buy now, as is her new

nonfiction book, The Success Myth. Next week's book guest is The Rise by Ian Rankin. My novel Weirdo and Carriad's book, You Are Not Alone, are both available to purchase now. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you. We like reading with you.