Sara & Cariad's Weirdos Book Club - The Chain by Chimene Suleyman with Chimene Suleyman

Episode Date: May 23, 2024

This week's book guest is The Chain by Chimene Suleyman.Sara and Cariad are joined by writer and co-editor of the critically acclaimed collection of essays 'The Good Immigrant USA' Chimene Suleyman to discuss romance, trust, Fleetwood Mac, writing through pain, comedy and the power of women.Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you!Trigger warning: In this episode we discuss coercive control, sexual assault and abortion. The Chain by Chimene Suleyman is available to buy here or on Apple Books here.You can find Chimene on Instagram and Twitter: @chimenesuleymanSara’s debut novel Weirdo is published by Faber & Faber and is available to buy here.Cariad’s book You Are Not Alone is published by Bloomsbury and is available to buy here.Follow Sara & Cariad’s Weirdos Book Club on Instagram @saraandcariadsweirdosbookclub and Twitter @weirdosbookclub Recorded by Naomi Parnell and edited by Aniya Das for Plosive.Artwork by Welcome Studio.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I'm Sarah Pasco. Hello, I'm Carriad Lloyd. And we're weird about books. We love to read. We read too much. We talk too much. About the too much that we've read. Which is why we've created the Weirdo's Book Club.

Join us. A space for the lonely outsider to feel accepted and appreciated. A place for the person who'd love to be in a real book club, but doesn't like wine or nibbles. Or being around other people. Is that you? Join us. Check out our Instagram at Sarah and Carriads Weirdo's Book Club for the upcoming books we're going to be discussing. You can read along and share your opinions.

Or just skulk around in your raincoat like the weirdo you are. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you. This week's book guest is The Chain by Shemann Suleiman. What's it about? The Chain is the true story of one man's shocking legacy of abuse to many women and the trauma he left behind. Shemann investigates her own pain and the incredible community of women

who rose up to expose him and help each other. What qualifies it for the Weirdo's Book Club? Well, most heartbroken people go to a yoga issue. treat or cut themselves a fringe. Shemann wrote a scorching bestsiller. One amazing weirdo. In this episode we discuss Romance. Trust.

Fleetwood Mac. Writing through pain. Comedy. And the power of women. And joining us this week is Shemann Suleiman. Shemann is a writer and poet whose previous work includes The Good Immigrant and the Good Immigrant USA.

The Chain is her first memoir and is out now. Trigger warning. In this episode, we do discuss coercive control, sexual assault and abortion. Hello, we're here. with Shemann Sullivan, author of the amazing book The Chain, which has just come out. How has it been? How's the process?

Good. It's overwhelming, but in a good way. I'm enjoying it so far, yeah. Were you worried beforehand? And what I mean by that is, because you've written about your own life. Was there some apprehension about response? Oh, God, yeah. Yeah, for sure. I think it's like up until this point, it's like the book has either been with, like, the publishing team who I trust, or, like, friends who I trust,

or even when the proofs went out it was like really a sensitive selection of people that it went to and then suddenly now it's it's like you don't really have control of whose hands it goes in anymore so it's kind of being the story is also being shared amongst people who aren't very nice and who don't necessarily always have the nicest things to say and that that's a bit

that can be a bit scary and also the fact that suddenly I'm just like okay it's out there now I can't take this back yeah there's no going back. There's no going back. Because we should say it's based on a real life experience that happened to you, of your experience with a relationship with a man in New York. Yeah. And his terrible behaviour. Yeah. Which you then found out he had behaved terribly sounds really English, doesn't it? Very terrible. It's a little bit naughty, I thought.

A little bit off. A little bit off. Not cricket, does it? He had definitely been not cricket with a lot of people in New York, a lot of women in New York, and coercive control, abuse, stealing money, lying, lying, manipulation. And then he also then moved to London, which you then came back and found out he was creating that same situation there. And that's what the chain you're referring to in the title is this chain of women who kind of rescued each other and helped each other.

But yeah, it's a very vulnerable book to write. Like when I read the sort of synopsis of it, I was like, fuck. And I'm really sorry it happened to you. Oh, thank. Because it's a brilliant book. And we're going to talk about how brilliant it is, but I really wanted to remember to say it's really shit. Yeah. Thanks.

No, I mean, I'm good. Like, it was a really long time ago and he's like, he's just a character in a book now to tell a much bigger story. Like, it's, yeah, it's, it is a memoir, but it also, it talks so much about society and how we get here as women. And then what we do for each other. And it's really about that. That's a very positive. Yeah, it kind of, yeah, it sort of has to be, really. Because it's a very uplifting book because you're talking about that.

It's not someone going, like, please cry. Yeah, and it's my favorite type of memoir in that, having read also a lot of grief books where you get, there's two categories, I think, you get grief book where someone's story is just, they're just telling you the story of what happened to them. Yeah, or they're healing through sharing their story. Yeah, that's a nice way, putting. But you just get, it's very like, this happen, this happen, this happen.

But I think what you're doing in this, this book, which is what makes it a really interesting book, is you're telling the story, whilst, like you said, making this bigger point. Yeah. And zooming out, it's not just like, oh, this man did this. And it's sad. He's like, he's a vessel to tell like a much bigger story through.

You know, he's not important or even really interesting enough to kind of tell his story. Yeah. Like it isn't really about him. He's just like the way in which I get to talk about. We get to talk about as women like much bigger things that relate to all of us, including like the good stuff as well as the bad stuff. But then at the same time there's enough, there's more than enough personal information in there as well

that makes it kind of a bit scary to be like, oh, that's out now. Oh, it's good, yeah. You've poured yourself into it and your experience, haven't you? Yeah. I wanted to, because I don't know much about Fleetwood Mac. So actually, before we get into it. I'm so sorry, I can only apologise.

tearing yourself inside out. So the chain is the title of a Fleetwood Mac. Yeah, as you read this, didn't have that song in your head the entire way. That's amazing. I had this song, Cha-Chain, chain. It's a different song.

You do it. It's Chain of Falls, but it's a similar theme to this book. So that's Ruth of Franklin, Chain of Falls. No, there is a song, Fleetwood Mac song,

The Chain. I know, because I read this book. We were together. We want to do know. See, I do know who Fleetwood Mac are. Congratulations. And they're obviously an excellent fan.

Amazing. What I don't know is the, you referred to it. So they had a breakup and they were sitting in a band, and they wrote a song that was combined. And they were all eventually dating each other. It's insane.

But they were heartbroken having to work together. Yes. Oh my God. The fact that you don't know this means there's a whole world of videos you haven't seen which you're going to love, which is Stevie Nix singing to Lindsay Buckingham, her ex-boyfriend, eyeballing him with songs about his, what he did to her. What did he do? Well, they're just a bit of a shit, really.

Yeah. It's just sort of typical, like, I don't know, I think they just had, they all had quite toxic. I think they were very toxic. Yeah. It wasn't like, oh, Lindsay did this, but they had a very like tempestrous relationship. And then they would write songs about each other's behaviour and have to sing them. It's a bit like two soundups doing an Edinburgh show at each other.

So it's like having to follow your ex-boyfriend who's just like done jokes about you or vice versa. Yeah, but also making him sing the song about him and he has to harmonise. He's having to say the lyrics back to her. You'll never love anyone like you loved me. And he's like, you never love it. And eyeballing him as you do it, giving him a look of like. And there's amazing. Reunion concerts in the 90s, but she's still looking at him.

And how did you feel, baby? How did the public know about this? Oh, everyone knew. It was very public, I think. They were a massive pop band. For the internet. So was part of the enjoyment of the music, oh, this is so raw for the performers.

To a degree. Two a degree, because, I mean, I think it's also about their dynamic. Like, they're really fun to watch because of that dynamic, and you can't miss it when you see them. And they always start, like, the chain, I think, is the only song that all five of them, like, wrote together in some capacity. And whenever they, like, perform live, it's the first, it's always the first song they start with. Because it's like how they remind each other that it's like, we did kind of hate each other, but we get, we got through it and we're still bonded by this chain.

Welcome to Fleet with Matt, guys. With our special, we get Sarah Pasco. Yeah, but that's really interesting. Oh, it's, that Stevie Nix is a goddess. Yeah, she really is. She's amazing. But the whole way I read this book, I have, in my head. So I'm, what different experience for you to have little Aretha Franklin going on?

Like nice, the nicest different experience. It's a slightly different sound like. What was the process of wanting to write this book? That's why I was wanting. So when did you start to think, you know what? This thing happened to me. There's a, like I could somehow put this into art. That can sometimes be like as it's happening.

Yeah? Yeah. This is the worst thing's ever happened to me. But it was a bit of both. It was I think also when we found out that there were so many women. And then we were all like in this like little WhatsApp group and Instagram, like group chats and like talking to each other. I think in the beginning it was like, okay, we'll write a long form article

and potentially try and expose him and like save other women and it made sense that I would be the one to write it. And then I started interviewing the women and I started interviewing his mates. And I'm like, oh no, this isn't a long form article. There's so much to say here. Yeah, yeah. And I think that's when I realized, I think especially when I interview his friends and I realize that they're more complicit than they would like to admit.

They really are. They really are. Yeah. And I think there was a lot of like, I think I wanted to come away thinking that it had fooled everybody. And then realized that actually, no, he hadn't really. And I think that's when I realized it needed to be a book. And it took a long time to write in part because things like the pandemic happened.

But I'm not a very particularly linear writer. So I'll like write chapters and then sort of work out where they go in the book later on. And also I had a brilliant editor and a brilliant team that sort of helped me pull lots of different thoughts, I guess, together and make it more linear, I guess, in a way. Did you feel, because there were so many people who affected, so many women affected by his behaviour, did you feel responsible to tell lots of people's stories?

Yeah, for sure, but yeah, definitely. But also because what makes the story kind of tellable and not just like a, oh, I mean, we've all been in, well, I hope we haven't, but I think most of us have been in horrible, abusive relationships. and I think where what he did made it more interesting for one of a better word is just the sheer scale of it. Yeah, it's so shocking.

Yeah, it's huge. Like how someone has the time? Well, the other don't know what I'm saying. Get that many women. I don't understand. Like, I can't think of anything. I don't have the energy to stay one person that. It's not just the amount of people.

It's the fact that he's talking about it on stage. Yeah. And further than like hiding in plain sight, bragging about it. to applause. Is the other part that makes sense? How did you find reading that as comedians? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because, like, he talks about, like, you know,

the backdrop of the chain and not knowing that, but, like, I'm not from a comedy world. He seems to exist in quite a murky world, like, a bit where I was like, I hadn't heard of him because we know each other from before. And when I knew this situation was happening, and his name was mentioned, I was like, oh, I didn't even know this, I haven't heard of this person.

So it made me, and then reading his material, I was like, what gigs is he playing with? Because you were being warned years ago, like years ago, like long before like this, I think even before this book got bought by a publisher. Oh, yeah. I knew of your situation and I knew his name. And other women as well in the comedy circuit who had started like, you know, he's not a known comedian. No, it's funny, he's not a known comedian, but he's a known to avoid amongst women.

A predator, yeah. A predator and the things that he had done to people, photographing them while they were asleep and naked. Yeah. I mean, our sex crimes. So what people being warned is, it's not like, oh, he hurt my feelings. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was like, this person will film you without your permission, take photographs of you steal from you, take his condom off without you knowing.

Yeah, they're all sexual assaults, yeah, of course. There are people who do material, which is not only really bad in a quality sense. Yeah, it's real, too, that is something. I was like, God, it's so bad. But there are a whole pockets of comedy where it's me being, naive, isn't it? I was like, what is this? I think you wouldn't go to watch those gigs. The open mic circuit has so much commendable about it because it is free speech. Anyone who thinks, you can't say anything anymore in this country, there is no money to be made,

there is no alcohol sponsorship, there is no boss, it is. You say what you like. I want to say the Wild West, but that sounds more fun. It's rooms above and below pubs where people go up and they, in some ways, really show you the truth of who they are. And if you want to, to see men who are angry at feminism. Yes, you can go on the Reddit threads or you can go and see some people's five spots. There is a lot of murdering ex-girlfriends. There's a lot of bin-bags. There's a lot of, and we laugh because it's called comedy, which means you aren't allowed to go, oh, I think you have some real residual anger there. And it can be an escape valve. Yeah.

And of course women do exactly the same thing. We make jokes about things that are horrific and we're joking. So it's not saying this is just a male thing. But yes, audiences will laugh at swear words, toilet behaviour and thinly veiled hatred. But not sort of really satisfying the world is better laughs. Awkwardness laughs or releasing the tension laughs. Comics tend to get much better. They grow out of it.

And most comics you ask, if you said, would you ever do your early fives and tens again would go, I'd be cancelled. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you get more sophisticated because you learn how to do it and you don't do such cheap tricks, I guess. Yeah. Whereas this person is still doing that kind of material.

Yeah. And also it's like, I've got a dark sense of humour and I like it, but like at least be smart with it, you know. And like for someone like this, which I've seen with a lot of male comedians, is that it's like it's just a confessional. It's just like it's just bragging grounds. Yeah. And I'm like, this isn't funny.

This is just you reliving like what you've done to people and being titillated by that. Well, and the laughter is like, how he, what company says is permissive. Or it's other people who agree with it. You've done the same thing. And they're like, ha ha, finally someone said it. Someone's saying the truth. Exactly. I think because because it's verbal, right?

And because people are allowed, like you said, it's like freedom of speech. It's, which is slightly different to say, writing a song. I think a lot of people who, a lot of men in particular who want to say these things, but couldn't get away with just tweeting it, can get up on a, or writing an article being like, oh, women are absolutely bitches and I hate them all. It's like, you can get up on a stage and be like, but this was just a joke. And you can get away with saying it and being like, oh, but I didn't mean it. But did I mean it? But I don't think I meant it. Yeah. And then that kind of becomes sort of easier to kind of camouflage whether it's true or not. Yeah. Which if you're

writing an article for, I don't know, the Times or the Observer, you're stating, I stand by these opinions. Or if you're singing a song about it, you're not necessarily like playing a character. You're like, I mean this. This is why I've written it. With comedy, you can just go, this is just an act. Which is what they're saying. I mean, whether they're being transphobic or whether.

Because it's not really me. It's just a joke. It's just a bit that I'm doing. And then you're like, well, actually turns out it wasn't. Yeah. And also I think in terms of where we are now is podcasting. and it's very, it's, oh well it's a podcast, it's a chat. It's on stage, it's on stage.

Yeah, it's still on stage. And I think, again, that's an even easier way for men to say their opinions about women because it don't even have to be funny. I think it's, I often feel, and it's why I sometimes find them really hard to listen to two men. You have said that before, two men on podcasts. Two men, and then sometimes even more, even when they're talking about things that I enjoy, because I, that's what scares me is that's what you talk like when we're not there. Yeah.

That encouraging. laughter of another man and then getting a little bit gleeful. Yeah. Because they're sort of, they're being, I guess what, what they're being, unpoliced, they're being, they're in the grey area, they're exposing themselves a little bit, their giddy exhilaration of their naughtiness while they're doing it. I find terrifying. Yeah.

Because, you know, even at school, understanding that boys together encourage each other, reinforce, no, you're fine, and that means that I'm fine. I don't need to feel bad. They egg each other on. They egg each other on. There's something really scary about it. But you can say the same as women talking. It's that thing, isn't it?

Like a group of girls together. Of course. And it's something that's so hard to explain sometimes of like, yeah, but the power we have is so different to the power that men have as a group talking. Just to count, you know what I mean? It's just that thing of like, well, have the patriarchy. Patriarchy. And what a classic one that people would say about women is like, oh yeah, they can be really bitchy.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. She's very different, very different power. Yeah. But what's that's, I guess, come back to the book. like harnessing that female power of gossip of as a I mean gossip in like the celebratory sense

like women help each other by communicating and that that's been a huge like thing that I've been on but as someone who was accused of like has been called fishwife and gossipy and chatty and then real like realizing you know reading that thing that went around the Twitter rage as being like actually gossip is what men call women exchanging data information It's the, what's it called the whisper network? Yeah, yeah. Gossiping, that's us, like, giving clues and hints and saving each other. Yeah, I mean, I used to feel so ashamed.

I remember having a director calling me a fishwife, and I'm just being like, oh, he's right, like, I'm just a woman talking, just nattering away. And then being like, I'm telling the information that can save someone, pain or... There's a whole real evolution that gossip is why we evolved such a complicated language. Nice. Yeah, we like that. There was an Instagram post. A drawing, right, of him.

And that's what you found. And that's how you found your first other ex. Yeah. In this situation. And then the comment section just filled up with other women being like... It took a while. I think I found her kind of quite early on. I found the picture and then I get put in touch with another woman

who happened to live around the corner from me in Brooklyn at the time. And then, I don't know, maybe about... I can't remember the exact timeline, but somewhere within that year, but kind of later on in the year, we suddenly realized that, like, that comment section is, is slightly fuller. And then within a few days,

it's like 500 comments. So people were searching his name as a hashtag, which was under the drawing. Yeah. Because he was such an elusive mystery. He was then blocking people. He'd been in relationship to his.

Yeah. And then you'd sort of get left, I guess it's effectively, like, ghost people. And, like, people would just be left, women would be left with, just not knowing where they're, what,

thought was their partner had gone. So you start looking for answers, don't you? And like, you start searching, like, oh, does he have a new girlfriend? Does he have, has he died? Or has it? Has he a comic? Where has he been gigging? Where's been seeing the world.

Exactly. Instagram could help you go, oh, I've seen he's on a line up there. Exactly. Well, also he told you, like, his mum was dying. Yeah. And he's really sick and he's not well and he's got mental health issues. And then you start worrying about, like, are they safe? And then that was such a complex thing to navigate and it must

have been for you and for lots of the other partners. So he claimed to have autism and agrophobia. And so demanded a certain kind of treatment based on his mental health. Yeah. Strange to read that as a form of manipulation and abuse. Well, you see it quite, like, I see it quite a lot on, I mean, Twitter is an absolute cesspit, but like you see how people have learned to kind of co-op the language of, like, the oppressed. So like you see it quite a lot with like racism. You see it quite a lot in general

with sexism and obviously with mental health. So people have learned how to kind of flip the narrative and use like the victim terminology to then attack the people that when even though they're they're the ones abusing other people. I think he just learned how to do that. I think he learned how to just go, oh well actually it's you'll look like a bad person, which is true. Like you would look like a bad person if and you would be a bad person. You were attacking someone for their mental house. It's just that it wasn't real. It's funny is it such a sort of like modern way of manipulation.

Yeah, and defence. Yeah, because like 10 years ago, I don't know if you'd have had that much vocabulary around it. And so when you're confronting a shit boyfriend and being like, you're not listening or you don't care, I don't know where you were, you didn't come home, for them to be like, well, I'm autistic's mental health. Yeah, exactly.

As a woman, you're like, oh, oh, I'm being. I can't do the dishes because it's sensory reasons and you're like, Or you could just wash up. I think the thing that kind of frustrated me with this guy with men like him is that actually like men's mental health should be talked about more. And it isn't taken that seriously. And there's a reason why there's such high suicide rates. And they're only starting, people who truly have it are only starting to feel safe enough

to talk about it. And a lot aren't. So for someone to kind of come in and take advantage of that knowingly, It was difficult to kind of navigate writing it because I also didn't want to put people who actually have men, especially men with actual genuine, people who are genuinely autistic and struggle, or people who do have ADHD,

I have it, you know, it's like it, it kind of puts you off then saying it in case now you start being accused of lying about it, you know, so it's a difficult thing to navigate. I think you navigate it really carefully

and it's clear how much you care and are thinking on, behalf of all the different types of readers who might be coming to. I think because you say exactly what you just said in your book. Because I have my shit too, you know, and it's like, and I think that's also partly where he was able to manipulate us because he was, his audience were women who either have mental health stuff or had loved ones who perhaps had lost to mental illness. So all of us were actually super sensitive around it and did take it really seriously.

and I think that's there's something so it's really cruel I mean there's lots of cruel shit that he does but like it's it's really sinister to take something that big that a lot of people don't have the balls to talk about having and behaving like this and then you kind of go well this is why people are scared to talk about or part of the reason why people are scared to talk about mental noise it's so cruel like reading the book there were definitely times

and I was like oh fuck like just his behaviour you know when you're like watching a film you just want the badie to like fall off a clue You're like, I want the body to be caught. I want the police to come along and say, bad person and all these women to be safe. And you're like, but it's not happening. And I thought, particularly what you highlight in the book and what you just said is the way he knew to manipulate differently. So with you, it wasn't so much like trying to get money out of you. It was different.

It was like trying to undermine yourself esteem. And with these other women, it was like just taking loads of money. But other women, it was like getting into their house. It was so, like, tailored. Yeah, yeah. But the stage before, the love bombing, I think, is that how does someone, protect themselves. From that, yeah.

When someone is connecting with you and giving you affection and using a language of, one of the things you highlighted was feeling like you've known someone forever. We are, from our culture, fed a diet of what romance looks like and what true love looks and what real actual intimacy will be. That's the really scary thing is how do you know the difference between I'm falling in love with someone. Yeah. And they're falling in love with me.

Or they're just manipulating me and none of this is real. It's so hard. And then what do you do if you start falling in love and somebody starts telling you all those things in the future? You meant to just go, well, I don't believe you now. So that's it. I'm going to write off like all positive, lovely experiences with people in the future. It feels like too personal questions to ask like how your relationships are.

But for all of the women affected by him, how do you then go and connect with someone and trust someone again? Well, I think to be honest, it's and I do say it it's like my gut was telling me that it was all bullshit anyway you know I think I did sort of know all along and I don't know

I can't remember if I say this in the book or not I think I probably do but it was like by date too I remember sitting in a bar with a mate googling my dating a psychopath oh yeah yeah you know so it's like and then you talk yourself out of it and then you go oh no no I'm a horrible person or like oh I'm not trusting because I've been in too many

bad relationships or you know you want to believe it or you don't like yourself enough to to trust your own instinct and like actually the thing is the reality of it is is that I did know and I can tell the difference between who's love bombing and manipulating and who isn't I just didn't listen to myself I didn't allow myself to believe myself your book reminded me of something I'd forgotten which was when I was 16 my first boyfriend and he only told two lies well done so it wasn't a relationship like this apart from two lies. What reminded me of it was you saying this thing of knowing something couldn't be true,

but then just sort of discounting it. So this guy when I got with him, so he was only like 18, so he wasn't a big age gap. But he told me he had another name and that he was a male model for Just 17. That's so of a time. Yeah, okay. Whoa, not sugar. And we were at the same six-form college. And so the lie would have worked if that model had stopped modelling for Just 17.

So it was a historical, like, I used to be this guy called Dan, that's me. Also, the guy had a different, you know, face. So it wasn't a great lie. Because you could look at him and go, we've got sort of similar hair, which is why he would tell people, I'm this male model. But the male model continued modelling for just 17. Yeah. That name just came from my head.

I was like, the Just 17 was called Dan Corse. Everyone liked. Yeah, everyone really is me. It was really hot. Yeah. It's like, no, cool. So imagine being like, that's me. And they started featuring him more in just 17.

It'd be like, we've asked Dan what he thinks about girls who are too much makeup. Yeah. With a completely different face. Getting a different face. Going to it, photograph, coming back. When did you, did you confront him? No, no, never. That's what my memories were doing that exact thing of going,

just ignore that bit. Just ignore that life. Let's ignore the part we've pretending to be down course. Because, because actually, especially teenagers, I think, forgive it a little bit more because teenagers are so desperately insecure. The lying is what I wish I was. I remember saying things to this guy being like, well, what about this? And if someone just denies flatly to your face, I'm not an alcoholic, I don't have a problem.

And you're just starting going out with them. It's very hard to go. I'll actually know you are. You fucking, why is a bottle of whiskey by the bench? It's like, I have water. You have wind. Like, that's mad. But you go, I guess people do drink and I don't drink very much and I'm really up tired about drinking.

So maybe I'm the problem. like yourself. Yeah, because if somebody denies to your face, you know, like every other experience you have with people you love and trust, you know, family or friends, if you say, what about this? They go, you're right, I know. I do have a thing there, don't I? Well, someone, you know, and this features in the book, but I've seen it happen like so many times. It's like, I remember someone telling me recently that their ex told them that they had cancer

and that they found out recently, obviously they didn't. And it's like, you would have to be a really fucking horrible person to be like, do you, though? Do you actually, do you have cancer? Do you really prove it? Or even to say out loud to other people, I don't think they've got cancer. Yeah, you're the horrible one. Yeah. Like you can't, it's a big risk to death.

Yeah, it's big, isn't it? It's big. You're not Dan Corsey. I've met. He's here. Come on, Dan. There's another aspect to his sadism, the guy, which is that he seems to use, in not wanting to use contraception. Which then means that there are pregnancies that arise. Some people kept his people and some people chose to terminate the pregnancies. But it seemed like a form of sadism to put women through that.

I think so, yeah. There's got to be a kind of fetish in there some way. Because you can't get, you can't make that. How many times are you going to make that mistake? Yeah, it's not a mistake. It's not a mistake. No, it's conscious. It's definitely conscious.

Especially if you don't want to have the kids as well. Yeah. You know, there has to be. it's like there's a really, you know, there's a really easy way around this. Either where condoms will get a vasectomy. Yeah. Which you could have done without telling anyone. Exactly.

And then played along with like, oh, you might be pregnant. Exactly. He could have absolutely done that and knowing he wasn't capable of it. Exactly. So there's got to be, if you're getting four or five women pregnant around the same time, around the same season, the same year, then how many times? Surely the first three women that you got pregnant over summer should be an indication that you don't want a four to a fifth. Oh, this is not great.

Right, right, you know, so you're in control of that. Yeah. So, yeah, there's got to be a little, there's got to, it doesn't, yeah, it doesn't read like a mistake. It's a weapon. It's a very, very nasty thing. And if you're a woman who has multiple terminations, they start to sort of treat you like it's pathological. You know, they do your treatments in a certain way so that it's more difficult for you. They treat you as someone who's using termination and abortion as a contraception. Whereas a man is able to do that freely.

it coming up, ding, ding, ding, ding. These are all getting impregnated by the same person. Which is also, it's like, you know, that year, I was responsible for one abortion. That was it, my own. He was responsible for fuck knows how many. Yeah. You know, so it's like, it's like, again, that's the other thing about how, like, you were saying, it's like women are treated a certain way, and it's like all of the weight

of abortions are put on us, and it's our responsibility, and we're sort of written off by society for it. It's like, well, there's only so many that I can have in my lifetime. There's only so many times I can get pregnant. There's only so many times. Exactly. I can't do one a month. He could be literally responsible for 10 in one month.

At least, you know. It's like... The psychology around it is they don't want to make abortions to, I mean at the moment, obviously it's even worse, but too nice, comfortable. There's so little interest in how do we make it less painful, less traumatic for the women who choose or have to go through it? Because then they might have more.

Yeah. And so women are... What mad logic. But women, even in, you know... It's such a great thing. Even in a loving relationship with a nice partner, it's so unfair. Yeah. Because the woman, the woman's body will just have to go.

She is the person who has to go through it. And it's the nature of it is so unfair. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And the book starts with, again, this is a particular spoiler, that he goes to the clinic with you. Yeah. You go in and then when you come out, he's gone. That's when he decides to, he chose that point at an abortion clinic.

I mean, even that's not a mistake. No, no, no, to go with you even is... Deeply sinister. Yeah. And I thought you wrote somewhere I, again, I thought it was just so interesting and I guess to focus more on your experience. I'm glad to be childless and regretful to have had an abortion. And I think you capture so, like what you were saying,

say of like two things can be true at the same time. Yeah. But yet I am the one person carrying all of this stuff. And I think, and I've, you know, I've said it before and I definitely say it in the book that I think it's something really, and you've just touched on it as well, it's like it's really unfair that like abortions

are treated as this binary thing and I think a lot of people who are pro-choice, we kind of get cornered into having this narrative where it's like, it's not a real baby, it's just themselves, it doesn't hurt, no one regrets it, it's the best decision I've ever made so that we cannot fall into that like anti-abortion rhetoric.

It's like when people are porn or working porn they can never say that they sometimes don't enjoy their job because there's so much being able to go I'm allowed to choose what to do with my body right because you're worried that the wrong people are going to hijack that and that would then be weaponised and used against the argument and you're allowed to kind of say do you know what it's not always just a set of cells for someone

like sometimes it is you do visualize it as a baby it did feel like a baby it does feel like a loss you can regret it but it doesn't mean that like I still value having that choice and I value the choice of being able to regret that Yeah. Rather than be forced into something. I think you wrote about that really brilliantly that, the great area of that.

And I find as someone who has two kids, that writing about that truthfully is really helpful. Because again, I agree with you when it's just like, oh, it's a bunch of cells, it doesn't matter. It's like, well, then it, abortions don't matter. And for people who've miscarriage as well. Yeah, exactly. If someone has a termination at a similar point to your own miscarriage, it's very, very hard. Yeah. So you go, oh no, that little clump of cells can be incredibly wanted.

And people don't say that with miscarries. They're not like, yes, punch of cells, don't worry about. They're like, no, that was Matt as important to you. But with abortion, it's like, well, you wanted it, therefore you have to not care. Right. That's not true. But also with the medical abortion, which is when they give you the pill and then you pass it at home, and they're like, oh, it's just like a period.

And you're like, there's not, absolutely nothing fucking like a period. It's like it's mimicking. It's a forced, it's a forced miscarriage, basically. You know, your body is miscarrying. You're not just bleeding, having a regular, period. It's like you are, and the pain of it.

Who says it's like a period? The doctors, well, generally. Who've not had them? Well, they have and they're just trying to, I don't know, maybe it comes from a nice place and they don't want you to panic, but.

I think sometimes there is, I don't, perhaps it comes from a good place, but they, like, if people are expecting pain, it's more painful. Yeah, maybe. But it is a lie.

But it is a lie and it kind of, it's worse when you're a bit like, sorry, I was just expecting a regular period. I think it's like crying on the bathroom floor, Yeah, because it's like the vocabulary of saying it's like a period is what you're saying to women is like you've experienced this. Yeah. The blood will come out of a place that you have before. This is familiar because we lack the ability to say, but obviously this isn't just your uterus lining.

This is a bunch of cells that could have been in life and could have changed your world. But you've decided not to do that. And that's like we just struggle so much with decisions that aren't black and white. Yeah. Either you're doing abortion because it's the right thing to do and it's fine. And it's like it can still be the right thing to do it and you can still grieve it. You can still grieve it and still question and still wonder what life would have been like if you hadn't have made that decision. And you, and it lives with you.

I mean, I had an abortion at 16. So, like, how many years ago is that? I mean, I've lived. God, it's double my life. I can't do that. Double my life. And then again, like, such a long time ago. And I still, you know, you don't forget the date.

You still have a ghost who grows up with you. I would now have an adult child. Yeah. And you think about that. You think every year he or she would have been seven or eight or 12 this year or whatever. Like, I know lots of women. who's still who view it in exactly that way. In fact, every woman I know who's had one views it in exactly that way.

And that's the thing that you said, it's so difficult to allow that argument to have air and oxygen. Yeah. Because it, because we fear that being like, oh, well, you shouldn't have abortions. It's like, no, I'm not saying we shouldn't have them. I'm just saying that you can choose to have them and still need space to be sad about a choice that you knew was the right thing to do. But I think we don't allow people, women, to be complex. No, we don't. Exactly.

Another element of that, which I so loved in your book, and I think is so important, is that you can, I'm going to paraphrase you terribly now, but the idea of not being a mother but having children. And that was such a, just how nurturing people can be without being people's biological parents. And it's such a thing that should be celebrated. And whether people have their own children or not,

the trouble with having your own children, is you have a lot less time to do this amazing thing, which is offering other people, benefit of age, experience and those kind of things. So you're talking about your relationship with some younger people. Other people don't get to point at, you know, women and say you don't have kids. Yeah, and I think a lot of women get written off as well. Like you're seen as very selfish if you have kids and then you're seen as very selfish

if you don't. Yeah. Right. And I think also there's this idea that if you don't have kids, do choice, that you're just this frivolous non-maternal person. And it's like that doesn't necessarily always have to be the case. Like you can, you know, like you said, it's like you can be utterly maternal and be great around kids

and enjoy the company of kids and look after them without necessarily wanting to do that 24-7 with your own biological children. You can have God kids and nieces and nephews and be a teacher and run a volunteers course and like really benefit from that relationship. it with nurturing and being maternal for one of a better word towards children without them being yours again it just comes back to not being not letting women be more than one thing yeah so many people would have children either expecting it to be a certain way in it not being yeah which is my experience or um or not thinking about it very much because they assume they know what it's going to be like

and then going oh it's not it's like this someone choosing not to is to put in so much thought like why would you doubt their mind yeah yeah yeah that's also really true How has the reaction to the book been, like you said at the beginning, like you said, this amazing piece of art, but it is very vulnerable. Yeah. Like, have, I don't want to talk about negative reaction. I guess what I'm like, it's hugely successful, which is overwhelming. Yeah. Yeah, it is.

And it's like, it's largely been really positive. Yeah, it's also, it's bit of sweet. And I said this about the good immigrant as well. It's like, it's really nice from a professional level also. It's great that it's like doing really well. And I wanted it to, I wanted people to kind of get solace from it. And I wanted it to kind of help people. And it's lovely that it's doing that.

But on the bad side, I'm really sad that that many people can relate to it. Yeah. I'm really sad that there are that many women who were like, oh yeah, me too. And me. And yeah, I, you know, I dated a guy like this. Or even to such a scary extreme level, there are lots of people that can relate. Not just on a much lesser scale. There are people, there are lots of people who've dated men who mass abuse like that.

this. But that's what makes this book so incredible is I feel like somebody being able to you, being able to write down this story, turn that pain into art and then like as a beacon to all these other women who haven't been affected by this man, but other men, to be like, oh, you're not alone. And I think that's one incredible piece to be able to hand to a woman and be like, this is what this looks like. You're not stupid. You're not a mug. You didn't do anything wrong. Yeah. The commonality doesn't take away from the hurt and the pain. Yeah. But it's not on you. I've had quite a few comments from people being like, I finally allowed myself the space to forgive myself.

Yeah. And that's great. That's kind of, that's all, you want really. Could you say that in the book as well about what I love? It's like grieving for the man that you thought someone would be. And again,

it's obviously with me comes about to grief, but I do think allowing sadness and allowing like, oh, I thought I hoped and I dreamed of a life and I wanted it to be and it wasn't. And allowing yourself to grieve for things that didn't turn out the way you thought they were. Yeah. Unless you do that, you just berate yourself.

or you stay with them. Yeah, exactly, and not feel stupid for it. And, like, actually, it's like, as soon as I met all of these other women, or as soon as I started speaking to them, I was like, okay, the shame isn't on me. It is on him. And for all of this time, like, I've just taken the shame and been like, what stupid idiot. And they were these brilliant, funny, clever, successful women. Yeah, exactly.

And I'm like, if I'm looking at them and not judging them, which I'm not, then why am I judging myself? Like, we've been through the exact same thing in this case with the exact same thing. in this case with the exact same man. And I don't look at any of them and think, oh, you dumb bitch, like, how do you end up like that? I'm like, God, you're brilliant. And I'm so sad that he did that to you.

And that doesn't take away from how brilliant you are. So as soon as I see that and I'm like able to go, oh, well, if I'm not judging them, then I can stop being mean to myself. I can stop bullying myself over it as well. Was there anyone who didn't want those stories in the book? Yeah, loads. Loads of people.

Yeah, loads of people. some people would be more private or a shame. Yeah, loads of people didn't. And I mean, to be honest, he does such similar things to all of us that, I mean, I could have spoken to 50 women and it would have just said the exact same thing anyway. But yeah, there were a few people who just didn't want to, who didn't want to go over it again. All of the names are changed anyway. Of course.

So, like, you can't. Did you have thorough sort of loyally? Very thorough. I can imagine. So that he wasn't recognizable. Yeah. Yeah. so that no one's recognizable really.

Because I did try and search and find out who he was, obviously. Because I'm a comic. So, of course, I thought, I wonder if. And you can't. No, no. It's going to show how crappy is. Jermaine, thank you so much. Thank you.

It's such a brilliant book. It's such a useful book, but it's also not, you know, it's genuinely beautifully written. You should be so hugely proud of creating something like this. Thanks. Showing so much of yourself as well as your experience. And I hope like that parchedamein in Brooklyn screaming on the sidewalk, like you could like ghostly visit her and hold up your book and be like,

it's going to be right. That's definitely. That's definitely in there. That's definitely in there. Yeah, I've definitely, it's like it's like it's not really, it's not a book about him. It's a book about all of us. And when I say us, I don't just mean the immediate women, you know. And men too and anyone else who sees themselves in it and relates to it.

Yeah, that's very true. So, yeah, and I do, yeah, it feels like, it feels like a story that tells a much bigger story now, rather than something that I'm holding on to, which is good. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for listening to the Weirdo's Book Club. My novel Weirdo and Carriads book, You Are Not Alone, are both out in paperback and available to buy now. You can find out all about the upcoming books we're going to be discussing on our Instagram at Sarah and Carriads Weirdo's Book Club. Follow us and tell us what you're enjoying. Thank you for reading with us.

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