Sara & Cariad's Weirdos Book Club - The Christmas Wish-tastrophe by Cariad Lloyd with Cariad Lloyd and Susan Cahill

Episode Date: November 7, 2024

This week's book guest is The Christmas Wish-tastrophe by Cariad Lloyd.Sara and Cariad are joined by fellow author Dr Susan Cahill with her own children's book The World Between The Rain to discuss magic, fairies, grief, nature, emotions and portals.Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you!The Christmas Wish-tastrophe is available to buy now.The World Between the Rain is available to buy now.You can find Susan on Instagram @susancahillwrites and Twitter @scahillSara’s debut novel Weirdo is published by Faber & Faber and is available to buy here.Cariad’s book You Are Not Alone is published by Bloomsbury and is available to buy here.Follow Sara & Cariad’s Weirdos Book Club on Instagram @saraandcariadsweirdosbookclub and Twitter @weirdosbookclub Recorded and edited by Naomi Parnell for Plosive.Artwork by Welcome Studio.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I'm Sarah Pasco. Hello, I'm Carriad Lloyd. And we're weird about books. We love to read. We read too much. We talk too much. About the too much that we've read. Which is why we've created the Weirdo's Book Club.

Join us. A space for the lonely outsider to feel accepted and appreciated. A place for the person who'd love to be in a real book club, but it doesn't like wine or nibbles. Or being around other people. Is that you? Join us. Check out our Instagram at Sarah and Carriad's Weirdo's Book Club for the upcoming books we're going to be discussing. You can read along and share your opinions.

Or just skulk around in your raincoat like the weirdo you are. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you. This week's book guest is The Christmas Wish Tastrophe by Carriead Lloyd. What's it about? Set in Jane Austen times, an orphaned girl needs to fit in at her new home. But a mischievous sprite and a naughty sausage dog called Colin are causing havoc. What qualifies it for the Weirdo's Book Club?

Well, it's written by me. CEO and co-partner of the limited company Weirdo's Book Club. In this episode, we discuss magic, berries, grief, nature, emotions and portals. And joining us this week is Susan Carhill. Susan is an author and writer. She's also the host of Children's Book Podcasts, Story-shaped, and her new book, The World Between the Rain, is out to buy now. Hello, welcome, Susan.

Cahill or Carhill? Yeah. Cahill. Carhill. Yeah, it's hard for English. Because there's a comedian called Pat Cahill. And Susan Calman. Calman.

Yeah, exactly. Her name's Susan. pronounce the same. I was like, Calman and Cahill are definitely different words. Oh, yeah. But carhill is how you should say it. I'm not even pronounce it. It's. It's not even. He's not. He's not. He's not. I'm not. Middle grade books. Middle grade books.

Also, some people have been saying Susan didn't exist. Yeah. Previously on the podcast, Carriad started bringing out this new friend, Susan. Other people, best friends with Carriad, never heard of this, Susan, never seen her. Suddenly she's in and out of her life. Yeah. Going to cinema with her. Yeah, exactly.

Going to go to her. A little bit like a friend who over the summer holidays, wants to come back and impress everyone, makes up some stories when we were like, beard, Carriad. Yeah, you went to the cinema. My new friend lives in a mansion and she's got a swimming pool and she says I can use it whenever. And she kept saying my Irish friends. Yeah. She kept saying Irish friends, yeah.

I was proud of my Irish friends. And now she's paid you an actor to come in and pretend to be Susan. Yeah, I can't even pronounce my own name. Yeah. That's why I wasn't sure what the name was because I was like, what do we agree on? Kay Hill. No, Carhill. Carhill.

Can't carry it together. Carhill, Car Hill, Susan Carhill. Dr. Susan Carhill. She is actually doctor. No, I'm like, insist. I noticed it's not on your book cover of the world between the rain. No, there's a local paper. my local paper, the town that I grew up in Clanacilty,

the local paper is called The Southern Star, and they've done an article on me in which they insisted on calling me Dr. Cahill. It's great, because then all of a sudden, this sounds like a physics book. Between the rain. It sounds like it's the physics of what's in between water. Please don't ask me questions about physics.

What is your doctor in? Irish literature. Susan used to teach James Joyce on the reg. She doesn't look cold enough. You'd be surprised. to teach people about James. Yeah. I had to teach Ulysses.

Wow. You know who'd love that. My dad, who's just made a 24-hour musical version. Wow. Amazing. With his saxophone. Wow.

If you thought reading Ulysses, he's hard, just try and listen into it on the saxophone. Oh, Dr. Cahill and your dad should have a chat. Do you love James Joyce? I do now. When I had to teach it, like for the whole of my undergrad,

I'd avoided it because I was like, oh, James Joyce Joyce, dead white man, I don't care. And then I got a job. in Montreal and they were like you're teaching all the Irish literature courses including Ulysses. I'd never read it. It's the first time I taught it I was a week ahead of the students. Oh really? And they were like, so you were like, don't ask me anything about what happens next. Yeah, they were like bringing up so and spoiler, it's spoilers, stop, stop. I'm not going there yet.

Let's focus on the present. And so were you glad you were forced to read you. I was actually, yeah. I've read it nine times now because I had to teach it like nine times. And every time you see something different. And what's really, Like what my favorite thing was is like doing it with a class of students. Because they'd all come in and they'd be really excited and nervous. And then we'd all get through it together. And by the end, I always wanted to buy them T-shirts that's like Ulysses 2019. Oh, brilliant.

Because yeah, it represents something so huge and it makes this all feel dwarfed and unintelligent and like we're not going to get it and the rest of the world can. Yeah. And then you're all in it together, not getting us. I've heard that there are sort of book groups where that's what they read over and over again. And then as soon as they finish, they start it again. And there's like Finnegan's Wake. I haven't read Finnegan's Wake.

I've read like maybe a paragraph. But yeah, there's people who spend all of their life reading Finnegan's Wake very slowly. I do really respect people who do that. I just go, do you know what? I'm just going to stick with this. I don't have the narrow pathways for that. We need the novel to you. Oh, yeah.

We're talking about the Christmas Wish Tastrophe by Carad Lloyd. Carad Lloyd, Christmas Witch Tastrophe. Way better than Ulysses. Yes, yeah. Actually, a lot of people are reading it chapter. a time and it's taking them about a couple of days. And the World Between the Warrant by Susan Carhill. And so I wanted, with both of you, when I was reading, I wondered, when did you decide

you wanted to write a book for children? Would you say children for middle grade? Young people. It's a weird one. Middle grade is described as nine to 12. Yes. And so by this time, we're presuming they're reading by themselves. Possibly.

Or they could have someone read to them. I think Susan's, yours is slightly older than mine. Yeah. It's like upper middle grade. Upper middle grade, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yours is less pictures. Mine does have more picture pictures in them, but not as many as a picture book.

It's just a way for publishers to spit it up. So you have like picture books, early readers, young readers, middle grade, upper middle grade, young adult. So it's just a way, in the same way that there'd be like thrillers, romance. Sure. Yeah. It's just thinking nowhere to put them in the book shop. Yeah. But I didn't like set out thinking,

I want to write a middle grade book at all. But did you have the idea for the story first? Or did you think, okay, what would I write for children? children? Oh, I don't know. Susan? Yeah. I always wanted to write for that age group because my favourite books were that age, like the secret growing up the secret garden, a little princess, like northern. I was a bit older for Northern Lights, but I knew I wanted to write for like me as a 10 year old. Did you love reading at that age? I was obsessed. All I did was read. Yeah. Like, yeah, nothing else had no friends.

Just my friends and books. Book friends. They're real. They're real, as we know. And did you read books over and over again? Or did you read lots? I read both. Yeah.

I read lots and lots. Anything I could get my hands on. Yeah. And then certain books I would read over and over again. Like there was charmed life. Oh, God. Yeah. Like I have such a clear memory of like getting that off the bookshelf in Clanical

Hilty Library and like the first line is something like... It's like, they're on a steamboat. Turns out they didn't live. It's like, brutal, brutal children's like. literature. Yeah. I think I like the slightly like darker stuff. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And Carad, what about you? You must have been reading as a 10 year old. Yeah, I was obsessed. I was obsessed with reading. We got a new washing machine that came in a giant cardboard box and I found we had these floor cushions and I worked out the floor cushions fitted exactly in. So I turned it up,

put the floor cushions in and I would just get in and read and that's my memory. I remember reading ballet shoes like all day and I put a blanket over. I did also then sleep and this box for a long time. To the point my brother was like outraged. It was like, just tell her to stop doing it. It's so weird. And my mom was like, well, it's fine. Don't worry about it.

So yeah, and I think we have very similar. I read a lot of Lynn Reed Banks. I love Lynn Reed Banks. I haven't read any of the cupboard. She wrote a book called I Houdini about a hamster. So my God, I've gotten that. And that's one I read so much. Yeah.

I read Fairy Rebel. He lived in a piano for a bit, but then he chewed so much of the felt that the piano stopped making noises and that's how they realized he was in there. But yeah, he was a lot of. as good as Houdini. You just couldn't keep him in a cage. Lindley Banks was such a prolific, fantastic author. Anne Fine as well. I used to read loads of Anne Fine.

Judy Blume, I was going to say. But she was a little bit more sexual. Teenage girls, yeah. No, I was really into Redwall series. Do you ever read that? Brian Jacks? Oh my God. It's like mice and badgers and like woodland creatures. Where out my alley. Woodland creatures magic. Yes, please. The animals of firthing wood. Yes. Yes. I love. Heartbreaking. Heartbreaking. Yeah, I wanted to write a kid's book.

So when I started this process, I didn't know all these categories. So I just wanted to write a kid's book. And then when I started writing, they were like, oh, this feels more middle grade. And I was like, oh, right, okay. Like I thought I was just writing kids book. And then you sort of understand when you start reading the kind of different categories, you're like, oh, I see. So early readers have like a lot more pictures and it's bigger fonts.

It's the extension of a picture book. It's just, you know, it almost is a longer picture book. Whereas this, you can get a lot more plot in, a lot more characters. So I think I just naturally ended up writing something a bit more detailed. And did you, and this is a question for both of you really, did you plot out the entire book as you would, or would be expected to with a novel before you started? Or did you have an idea of a world and then see what happened?

I had an idea. So I knew I wanted to be in Jane Austen times, because obviously that's my world that I have been improvising him for 14 years. Yeah, so tell me why? Why, Jane Austen? Yeah. So did you think, because it's fun or because it's, unusual or because you thought it would serve the story?

So I came up with this, first, firstly, I had a name, Lydia Marmalade. That was just all I had was this name and I thought a girl called Lydia Marmalade. It wasn't because it sounds like Lady Marmalade. No, someone said that to me. Dan Triber said that. I thought, Dan Chiber was like, oh, Lady Marmalade and I was like, no. I was just waiting for I say, to say, coochie, cooce. I was just going next to.

No, and usually Sarah, I didn't put Vuele Vucche and my middle grade book. It must be what my brain was doing, but I didn't recognize it. So I just thought Lydia Marmalade was a really fun name. I think I was just thinking about worlds. I like writing in genre. I like writing things that are very clearly genre because I think I like improvising in genre. And I just thought, well, I know Jane Austen's world so well.

And I thought that Jane Austen's books obviously are amazing, but they're very romantic. And my thought was, wouldn't it be nice to have a book in that world for kids? So you still get all the fun of carriages and balls and card parties. But you're not like, well, they get married. Because they're, you know, sort of ten-ish. And also, I mean, what's so amazing is children want to break rules and rebel

or they're going to get told off accidentally and things are going to go terribly wrong. And so if you put it in a very, very restrictive world, much more than now in terms of behaviour and status. And actually what you're dealing with is class. Yeah, yeah. Rich versus poor and those kind of things. I think genre gives you that. Like as soon as you put something like in the past or genre, it's like, oh, well, and that's why Jane Austen so great, you know, that's why we like watching remakes and Bridgeton and everything because there's a very clear structure that if someone disobeys it's obvious to us there'll be consequences and you know what the consequences are and it has that kind of mythic epic feel of like they will be banished which you don't you can't

get in a modern book you can but it's obviously it's much more nuanced and subtle so I just wanted to write yeah a kid's Jane Austen book where it wasn't so focused on romance and then I had to add some magic in that was the thing yes yeah So Susan, you sort of created your world from, you created your own genre. Yeah, you didn't jump like me. This is easy. This will do. Well, like my favourite books were always ones where start in this world and the

character is fine like a doorway into another world. I spent my life searching for doorways into other world. Yeah. Like, you know, you check every wardrobe and every rabbit hole. Yeah. So I was like, okay, this is the type of book I want to write. I want to write a book in which character finds slips into another world. The first, like, inkling of the book came.

I was at an academic conference. which was really boring. I was day-draving and I had like an image of these two girls in a wardrobe trying to get to another world and I was like,

okay, well I can't use a wardrobe. Oh, yeah. That thing is, I've read this a wedding. Looking back at the cover. So it's like, I was, I wrote a lot of it in Ireland

and I was in Ireland sitting like looking at the window going, what could be the portal? Like where is the doorway? Naturally it was raining. And I was like, oh, hang on a second. Like, what if this person

is like staring out the window and there's like this weird something weird happening with the rain. And what if there's that's the doorway, the door is between the rain. And the rain is like just nearly all. Like it's more there than it is here in Ireland. Like the rain is constant. Yeah. So then you have that really excited me because I was like, okay, then there's constantly a possibility of someone falling into another world. There's magic all the time.

So that's where it started. And then I was like, okay, well, what kind of world are you going to find? between the raindrops and it's going to be pretty watery. Yes. It's very watery. The book is so watery in a beautiful way. I love your book so much, Susan. It's so beautiful.

I love yours. This is why we're friends. We love each other's books. Yeah, and I was thinking it's really interesting. We've both done, I think, it's a perfect seasonal compliment. I feel like you've got a very autumnal book. And I have a very wintry book. So I feel like start with Susan's and then buy mine for winter.

Because you've done that really nice thing with the nature and the weather and that being like such a central character, like you said, like this rain and they go to Ishka, this watery world where... Ishka is actually the Irish word for water. I found that out talking to someone in the bookshop about your book. And he was like, oh, Ishka, they say that, like my friend always says that when they toast,

because it's like... Oh yeah, because whiskey is Iskabaha, the water of life. Yeah, and I was like, oh, I didn't know that little hidden Easter egg for you there. And yeah, there's all this, they live, they keep moving between all these watery worlds. and there's the well, there's a lot of water. And yeah, then my book, it's much more like forests and trees and, yeah, wintery stuff. So I thought, is that a classic middle grade thing that you kind of need to use nature?

I think weather, and I've been thinking about this lately, which I'd never thought about before, but I think weather is really important in middle grade. Yeah. Like really important as a plot point, because even if you think, like, if I go back to the Lion, The Witch and the wardrobe, it's raining the day that they find Narnia. And it's snow. And then it's like so snowy. And the snow is like the symbol of like, you know, it's always winter.

When I lived in Montreal, I always thought about like Narnia because it snows until April. So it's like it's always winter but never Christmas. But yeah, you've got the snow and when the snow starts the thaw. That's the sign that Aslan is on the moon. And the Dark is Rising. Did you read that when you were? No. It's so good.

Susan Cooper is The Dark is Rising. And that's like the main character Will. wakes up and the whole everyone in his family is asleep and the whole world is covered in snow and that's like an indication that he is like moved into this like ancient mythic time

it's so good but yeah like and you've got the tornado and Mr Vaz and more I think about it the more I'm like okay weather makes plot happen in the children's books especially because it's a wish tastrophe yes you start reading you know things are going to go wrong

yeah the first chapter is called trouble yes indeed and so and we've got Colin the sausage dog Colin is a such dog. Who isn't supposed to be with Lydia? No, no. Her mum dies, which we should talk about grief. Both our books are actually loaded with grief, obviously.

So her mum dies and she goes to live with Lady Partridge, and she doesn't know why she's going to live with Lady Partridge. Like she's been sent there. Lady Partridge lives in Peppomboli. Some Austin jokes for everybody. Her sausage dog is called Colin. He likes jumping in lakes. Yes, and she goes to the Firths.

There was some lovely nods. Thanks, thanks, guys. And yeah, so she goes to live. with Lady Partridge. And one of the rules Lady Partridge says to her is like, you can't bring the dog. So the first thing she does is bring her dog. Smuggles him in because he's her best friend. Yeah. And he doesn't consider himself a dog. He considers himself a gentleman. I don't think any dogs do. Well, yeah, exactly. So yeah, Colin also considers himself part of the gentry. I love that bit where the maid, is the Harriest? Oh, Harriet's the cook. Or Martha.

Yeah. She tells me she talks to the blankets. Yes. She's whispering to Colin, stop wriggling and the maid catches her. But what are you doing? She's like, oh, where I come from, we talk to blankets. Talk to blankets. Thank you for keeping me warm. Any of anything, anything to cover up, keeping Colin safe.

So what's so great is we've got this environment straight away where Lydia is expected to behave a certain way. She's going to have to behave like a lady. She's at this big sort of family house. Colin's going to cause problems. And then she meets a fairy. She meets a winter sprites. A winter sprite.

Yes, yeah, I wanted to put some magic in. So she makes a wish. And this is the bit, it's sometimes hard to talk about because it's a bit sad. But she wishes that her mum was with her. Yeah. Which. I don't think, I don't think it's sad. It just feels that exactly what you would do.

You know, if you had to move, like, homes, because you can't if by yourself, because you're a child, that is what would be your wish. I know. I think it's hard when you're talking about kids books and there's like a level of sadness, which there is to all my writing. And it's hard to, I still want to be like, but it's still funny and a good Christmas. And John Jop. But I think that's such a kids book thing, though. Yeah. Kids books are full of dead parents.

I know. Most of them don't actually deal with us. It's with Harry Potter, like, seeing his parents in a mirror. I mean, that for me is, like, one of my fundamental reading experiences. Like, I have never cried so much at that chapter when Harry looks in the mirror and sees his parents. Like, I couldn't read. I was crying so much. And I recently reread that to my daughter, who's nearly eight.

And I thought, oh, here we go. Here's the mirror. Here's the mirror. Yeah. And I was like, this. chapter is not that sad. Like I was in such a bad place with my own grief when I read that that I could, I was like, oh my God. And then rereading it, I was like, wow, this is quite a short chapter. Like to me, it was like so long and so detailed. That has stayed with my memory so vividly

that a boy without parents, of course, if you show them a mirror in Harry Potter, the mirror shows you what you want most of all, would see his family. And so I wanted to write a book where, I think it's beautiful because they're sort of standing behind him. It's them together. And they're like cheering on waving and it's all you want when you've got dead parents is just to like see them want to see them moving and that they see you as you are now that's like the ultimate i remember reading that being like fucking jk like this is whatever we feel about her now i that that stayed with me and so yeah lydia has this uh her um her father died when she was very young she doesn't remember him but her mother has recently died and so she makes this wish on the 6th of december which happens to be st nicholas

night which is when some people celebrate christmas um And a winter fire spright, here's the wish. So Bell is the winter fire spright, and she, it's so hard to explain middle grade books. They're so complicated. And she, Bell, being like a cheeky fire sprite, just thinks that's an easy wish. So you want your mum there. Sure, where is she? Our magic her.

And then we realise, oh, you can't magic her back from the dead, which means Bell is stuck because Bell can't go anywhere until the wish is granted. So now she has got two travelmakers in her life. No, then she's got two problems. She's got a dog that she's not supposed to be there. Lady Partridge has said, if you cause any trouble, you're going to the workhouse, which did exist in Regency Times. I mean, it's called the Christmas Christophie, but Regency Christmas was not such a big deal. Like, it's not, I think a lot of us think of Victorian Christmas.

And it was not like that for the Georgians. They celebrated from the 6th December till 12th night in January 6th, like the whole winter season was a big party that was like when you went and saw people. We should bring that back. We should bring that back, right? Yeah. And so also they had a lot of like sort of pagan hangovers of still bringing in like Evergreens and like those holly It was all kind of reminding you that spring is coming

Like that was the big thing that you will survive the winter So I wanted that like fire spite magic to be a part of that And for that not to be like Yeah that wasn't that I still think those worlds were a bit close And also magic in kids books is the best thing ever That you can just bring magic in and it's fine No one's like what? I guess at those ages, and I'm a bit like you, Susan, when I read, my favorite one actually was the magic faraway tree, the idea that you'd just be in a forest and suddenly these characters would live there and the idea of lands just sort of moving around the top.

I'm so desperate for it to be real. I know. Because it was right at the edge of my disbelief. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I so wanted it to be real. And I think that's why magic is really important at children reading at this age, not just for plot reasons, but because you're just sort of still got some believability there. And also if you're someone who was into magic as a kid, you sort of still, I still now think, I don't know, might see a fairy. Like I still cling to that.

Because I was obsessed with magic and obsessed with like woodland fairies and being able to see if you left out an acorn cut with water. Like they would like use the water and that would be their bowl and like, yeah. Just the idea that there's something magical you can't see. Magic or lands in other places, you need sort of central character. who are lacking something. Yeah. So for Lydia, she doesn't have a safe home

and she's just lost her mum. And for Marina. He's also lost her father. Yeah, it's like the first anniversary of her dad's death. So he's died a year ago. And Marina hasn't really dealt with us. Her mum and her sister,

she's got a younger sister, they have, they've been grieving in their own ways. But Marina can't get in touch with her own grief. And she's someone who, like her dad used to say, he believed that she was someone

who could find doorways to other worlds. But since he's died, she's like, well, magic doesn't exist. He said he'd never leave us. He's gone. Magic doesn't exist. There are no doorways. So when she sees the rain behaving strangely, she's like, well, no, this is, I haven't slept all night.

I'm hallucinating. This isn't real. Magic isn't real. And then the plot is going to force her both to understand that magic is real and that she has to confront her old. feelings. Yeah. It's that feeling things again.

And I think that's why it's so watery is because water is such a good metaphor for emotion. And yes, the world is, there's something, when she goes into Iska, the other world, it's almost entirely water, but there's something lurking, something really dangerous, lurking under the water that's eating dreams and flooding cities and big old metaphor. But at this age, if you think about someone who's 10 or 11 or 12, that is the point in your life where you'll be having huge questions, huge emotions.

Yeah. And you do need safe places to explore those. You can't just jump into adult stuff. You can't just watch Love Island. I think it's going to help you your personal growth. I mean,

it's probably why reading is so important. I don't know if TV has an equivalent. I don't know. And also, we're like three very bookish girls. Do you know what I mean? Like that's where I definitely went to understand things. I still go to, like if I need to understand anything. But I think young people do still do that.

Yeah, yeah. No, I just meant like this particular coven. Yeah. You don't think we're representative. No, no, I do. I just think like we are, yeah, I wonder about kids today. I wonder, but I do still think there's a certain type of personality that need stories to reflect something back at them about emotions. And I think sometimes you can get it from television, get it from films.

But I think there's something definitely for me that like those vivid memories of a book, like a book being adventurous. or dangerous and being safe to put it down. Do you know what I mean? And that's how I felt about like Red Wall. Like they were having these epic dramas and battles and it was like about like life and death. But I could put it down and I could have a break. And my real life, if that felt overwhelming,

it was like, but I can live here and feel those emotions in a safe way. And I think, yeah, I think that's so important for kids to have that like a narrative to project all that stuff on. But it's funny, isn't it, that both of our books, and we've talked about this, just have this undercurrent of grief in them but like yeah and as both of them are struggling with magic and believing again after a terrible loss and I think that's something that kids and adults can

relate to of like you have this terrible loss and it makes you think well what's the fucking point but it's also that age as well like you said like far away tree was at like the edge of your disbelief like when you're a small child like when I when I was very small mom said that I used to go to the hedges and I'd be like, it's okay fairies, you can come out. It's only me, Susan. Oh, Susan. Still waiting for someone like Bell to him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But as you get older, you start to lose that, like, intense belief that magic is real, that there are other worlds, that there are, like, woodland creatures.

So a book like this, both books are about, I think, yeah, allowing you to kind of see your big motions, reflect it back at you, understand the ways in which you can engage with them and talk to them and experience them without getting overwhelmed. I love kids books so much. I love reading them to my kids. I just love, I feel like there's an extra room that you don't get in adult fiction. You just get to have so much more fun. So, I mean, because it feels to me that having known you that you've fallen even more in love with children's literature since having children, or is it since writing it or both? No, I think I always, always loved it. Like I was obsessed with reading, especially fantasy books

as a kid, magical books. And then I think I did that thing of like, well, that's not proper, that's not proper. And you shouldn't, you know, now you have to read, pretend to read Ulysses, or like just read Jane Austen and do an English degree. And those are, those are children's literature. And it's all right to talk about Lord of the Rings in hallow tones, but not, not, um, red wall or something like that. And then when I started reading to my kids, I just got obsessed because you have to, because you have to read these books and repeat, when you found a good one, I would just be like, oh my God, this book is so good. And I would talk about it like new Sally Rooney, I'd be like, oh, like the John Classen books are just so good and they're so satisfying

to read. And when you realize like how, and then when you have to read a lot of, like, as my daughter to go older, there's some real crap out like proper crap. Like, I can't tell you how bad, how lazy some of the books are for kids. So you appreciate the quality and the work that goes, the craft that goes into. You appreciate someone who cares about a story. So when you get someone who's bothering to tell your child a story and trusting them. Trusting them to have a story. And trusting them to have a story that you have to interpret. You're selling it, you're reading it. It's like a bad script. You're reading, I can't sell this. I can't make... Because kids are, kids are so, they're really sophisticated readers. And they're like, I love that what you said about like, it feels like there's

more room in children's books, because kids are just that bit more open to the possibilities of the world. Yeah. But also they're not going to, they're not going to take any shit. They don't mind mad stuff happening, but they don't like bad story. Yeah. So they have no problem with like a dragon turning up to solve everything. But if that doesn't make sense for the story, they get annoyed. And also, I mean, we all know this. If you're not invested in a story, you don't care what happens next. Yeah.

With a child, that's literally, I'm not going to go to sleep then. I'm going to get out of bed now. Also, I'm just going to say to you, stop reading it. Yeah, so you need to get a child reader really quick. They have to care. Yeah, yeah. On the first page. Yeah.

You have to get them to care on the first page. Yeah. Yeah. You can't. I mean, like, an adult reader will maybe give you a bit more time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

You get, like, I've read like three pages of, like, classic books of my daughters. She's gone, boring. I don't think it is. I think actually society has agreed this isn't boring. She's like, no, nothing's happening. Not funny. It isn't funny.

So you really don't have, yeah, you don't have time. And I just, I love that you have to, your story has to work. You can't be like, no, no, no, actually my story is doing. You can't indulge your feelings. You have to get that story on it straight away. And that's quite nice to write that, to be like, well, what happens next? Why is it happening next? What, like that beat?

And it reminded me of an improv show. That's why I liked writing because it was like, what needs to happen? Well, a drunk audience is very similar to a young person. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In terms of attention span. Yeah. Susan, did you sort of forget loving children's books and come back to them or did it always stay with you? I think you've had it, haven't you?

They didn't walk away. No. And I like, I used to teach children's literature as well. Because I just like, I think my academic career was just like, it was getting me as close as I could get to books without actually writing them. The writing them was what I always wanted to do. So I had a course on Irish children's literature where I just got my students to read children's books so I could talk to them about children's books. Because yes, nobody else would talk to me about children's books, so I'd force my students to. But when you're taking them seriously, you get so much out of them.

Like they're so well-crafted. They're so philosophical children's books. They're dealing with the big questions of life. Like we've got death and grief and hope and family. Family, what's good, what's evil. Like all of the big moral questions are in children's books. Like the Moomans, they're like, those are books of like deep philosophy. Okay, now I can see why you're friends.

Carriad. Yeah. If you cut her, she bleeds moomers. And I didn't read Moomans when I was a child. Like I only came to them later and I was like, I couldn't believe it actually when I read the short stories. Is it what are they called the tales? Are they the tales from Moomin' Valley? There's Tales from Moomin' Valley.

There's Moomin' Land Midwinter. There's a Moomin' part. Like, they're all, yeah. Like, there's lots. Did you read Moomans as children? I read, there was a picture book version that my mum was really, actually it was my mum's for all the Moomans. And then there was a Polish adaptation.

Do you remember that? Fuzzy Felt animation? Terrifying. Absolutely terrifying. They used to be on telly at like 1 o'clock in the afternoon. And me and my best pal Zowie would, I think we were like half days from school. We started school.

I remember like having an egg sandwich and hula hoops and watching this Moomin adaptation. And you can, most people know the Japanese adaptation, which is like very saccharine and sweet. The Polish one, obviously, it's like 1980s, Eastern European, like fuzzy felt anime. It's terrifying. And that like burned into my retina of like these things that were very sweet, but there was dark stuff going on. And then I went back to the books when I was much older because the picture books they had were like the simplified version. But it's entirely if my mum was obsessed with them. And what I...

The reason I love the moment so much. So I hate that I love the moomens because I think it's a bit manic pixie dream girl that I have like mooning bags and stuff and like a moomin pajamas. And my daughter's like, do you want to be a mooman? But they are...

There runs two threads in those books which is like joy and happiness in the most inane, wonderful things like berries or sunshine or friendship. And then there is this... utter, like, bittersweet melancholy of like, winter will come and it will be fucking hard. Like, moving lad, midwinter, he wakes up, everything's covered in snow, he's supposed to be hibernating, and he's woken up and he can't get back to sleep.

And then he discovers the winter creatures that he's never seen before, because he's normally hibernating. And I read that during one of the worst lockdown, like, I think it was 2021. And I was trying to read it to my daughter. He kept being like, it's a bit sad. And so I just read it without her. And I was like, it healed my. soul. It was like, yeah, it was like, look, yes, winter comes and awful things happen in winter and death happens, but it will melt, you will get through this. And I just feel like,

unless one of the dead ones. But I think that's what kids' books do. And they, they show kids that they can do it and they can get through this really, like hard stuff exists and you can get through it. Yeah. Like, and as a child, you are probably the best one to navigate your way through this peril. And as a coping strategy, that is what you're trying to sort of instill in people all the time. Yeah, resilience, isn't it? Like, you can cope with this. This is an emotion. Yeah.

And I think maybe, I don't know, maybe me and you have, like, an optimism that, like, we sort of think, like, maybe magic does exist. And maybe, like, it will be okay. And maybe I will see a mirror one day where, like, and at the same time knowing that's not the truth. So it's like that tension, I think, is really interesting. It's like when people are into crystals. Well, yeah. Absolutely. I was going to ask you directly, but then I thought I'd say,

into Crystal, Susan? Yes. Strongly. We should talk about how we met as well, because we met on a retreat called Mothers Who Write, which is run by the brilliant Rebecca Schiller. In a very magical children's book. Oh, actually, where we were in Wales.

That landscape is where Susan Cooper's books are set. Not The Dark Is Rising, but she's got other books in the series. And there's another children's writer called Marcus Cedric. And he spent time there. So I think it's a really magical. It's magical place, yeah. So Rebecca runs these retreats for mothers to find space to write. And that's where I met Susan.

But I thought that was interesting as well that like we had to go talking about we had to go to this cottage in Wales to write these things because of mothering and writing. And that's when we were able to like talk about crystals and do taro weekend. Yeah. But like again, disappearing into our magic world, whereas our realities are living in London, being mothers, trying to be like, And so is it difficult to feel magic spark then? I think you definitely need top-ups. That's what I feel. Like the Wales retreats for me,

these brilliant retreats that Rebecca runs, feels like where you can have that moment where you can go. Because it's surrounded by forest. Like there's no phone signal. And you can just let go of all of the... There's a stream running past the cottage. And you can feel, it's a place where you go, maybe there is magic.

If I went up that tree, maybe there would be moonface up there. Whereas that's hard to keep going as a mother trying to write in London. Do you know what it mean? Like when you're trying to write magical stuff. Also, I wonder now with technology, if you're in a house with computers and telephones and TVs on and

noise, is it much more difficult to imagine an owl speaking to you outside of the window? If you take all of that technology away, then you might hear the owl. Yeah. The old might be talking to you, but you're like, oh, it's scrum. Also, I feel like, is that us also going back to childhood when like, that's for me

endlessly daydreaming, like endlessly having nothing to do, but just living in my head and imagining what these fairies would say and do. And also boredom and wanting something to happen. Yeah, yeah. Really bored. Yeah, which I think is hard maybe to access if you're writing kids literature. Like you sort of need to go back to a magical place.

I know you talk about going back to Ireland a lot of the time and connecting again with like the water and the rain and the beaches and all that stuff. Like they're still Instagram up with there. There is so much of you in this book, I have to say. So the cakes. Are the cakes? Absolutely obsessed. It's almost cake, Paul. The first time she meets Harriet the chef,

she's cooking seven cakes. Yeah. What? Seven layer cake she's making. Because also Jane Austen invented the phrase sponge cake. Did she? Yeah, that's the first time it was ever written down. I think there's a line in there where Lydia's like,

well, at the beginning of this day, I hadn't had the best tea cake ever and I didn't have any friends. And I think things might be okay now that I've had my tea cake. Yeah. My new friend is a cook. Yeah. I wanted it to be that you read it and you were really hungry. I wanted, that's what I wanted it to be.

But also for me, cakes are like... Food is comfort. Well, sugar, sugar. Cakes are like how you survive life. And as a kid, though, you've no control over what you're eating. Yeah, yeah. So I think food in kids' books is really, really important. Innaud Blighton always knew how to pack a picnic.

Say what you want about Blighton, but she knew how to pack a picnic. She knew. She did. I mean, in terms of like just your excitement about lashing from... Lashing from... Ginger beer. Yeah.

Ginger beer. I think also it comes from... That's when I started learning to bake was a kid because I wanted cakes and my mum wouldn't buy them. And so she was like, well, make them and she would leave me alone. And I would be like, well, what I would like is like a sponge with like jam and cream. That's the difference for girls and boys. I can't imagine ever doing that with my kids.

Because the house would be burned down. I mean, I was older. Yeah. But also she was like, she'd gone past the point of... Like, she didn't want to help us bake like cupcakes anymore. And I remember really. that you could make a sponge cake, and I made one with my friend, and half of it burned, but we just scraped out with our hands the side that wasn't burn, and I was like, we just made

fresh sponge, and I'm now eating hot, warm, fresh sponge. No one's stopping me, and I made it. I didn't have to go to the shop, and it burned, it doesn't matter, we just hacked off that bit. It's so adorable. There are people in the world who have, you know, like drug habits and stuff, and their origin story would be a really grim version of this. But because Carriads' addiction is... Cake and butter.

Yeah. I was clawing it and I've done anything to get it. Look and I've come through it and not a lot of people, I know a lot of friends that haven't come through their cake addiction. I'm in a lot of debt. The sugar traders are after me. Stole a lot of cakes. Tate and Lyle, I can't see him.

I really loved the Carriad in there. I loved the way that Bell cursed. Oh yeah. Because that felt very much like you, especially when I first met you and you had your... you know, your pyjamas pulled all the way up to your nipples. For a joke. You were like, oh, I'm gum nuts, I'm gum nuts.

I'm nice to meet you, I'm gum nuts. That kind of thing. And I was like, oh, that's what middle class people are like. And then I found her one day listening to Radio 4 and eating hummus, and she was furious with herself. It's a slippery slope, isn't it? So a lot of the language really reminded me. And it's so lovely to have someone cursing, but with, you know, badgers and...

Yeah, so Bell says things like, I actually based her on, you know, the Captain Haddock and Tintin. So he says, like, blistering barnacles and he has all these sea themes, and Bell's swearing themes are like hot hazel nuts or blistering blackberries and stuff. So she's a wood sprite, really. It's lovely. And also, but of course you'll know my very favourite line, my very favourite line. I'm sure you put it in for me.

Oh, I know what it is. I know what it is. Page 270. There she is. Bell let out a hoot of joy. Take that and party, she shouted. The best album, their best album ever recorded. As I wrote that, I thought, can I get away with this?

Can I get away with this? And I thought, yeah, and I do the audiobook, and I kept laughing when I had to say that line. So I was like, I was like, a woman of a certain age will know what I'm referencing. And there's also a far show joke as well, which my friend Susanna, who lives in Mexico, listened to the audiobook. And she was like, I can't believe you've got some fast show jokes in there. Yeah, because someone says, you won't see me, right? And she was, yeah, exactly.

And she was like, oh, everyone will get that. And I was like, I don't think they will. I think it's quite a niche these days, niche audience of people who watch Spass Show. Yeah, exactly. But their parents who are reading it. Well, this is it, trying to put in jokes for the parents, because it is nice when that happens. Are you excited about the reception for your books? Having young people tell you that it means something to one that they enjoyed it or made them off.

I hope that happens. That's what's nervous. Yeah, I hope it happens. Because you obviously just want, that thing, you have all this knowledge of your own love of kids' books. You just want a kid to like it. And if a kid could like my book as much as I like it. any of the books that I read, that would be like, that's a dream come true. Yeah, really.

Because I was just like, I would just put my whole self into a book when I read it and I would just inhabit that world completely. And if I could do that for a reader, I can't even imagine that happening. I know. So wonderful. Or just that feeling that I used to have when you could just sit and just read, read another chapter and the whole world would just disappear and you were like in it. You were gone.

Yeah. I'd be very happy if that happened. Very, very happy. I just want to make a nice story that's fun. Not as grief as you think. Yeah, that's grief as you think. That should be the cover quotes of both for our books. All my writing.

Not as grieve as you think. Actually, some enjoyable stuff. I think you're more paranoid about it. Yeah. I think you're ready for someone to be. And I don't think anyone would pick this up and even notice. I know. I imagine there's a dead parent in it.

I know. I think it's a story. Yeah. And like what I loved about that about your book was that it just, it feels so gentle and so warm. and any child who's reading this and maybe feeling a bit wobbly is this going to feel really held. And there's a really, my favourite moment was when Lydia is thinking, like she's feeling really stressed out and wobbly.

And she remembers her mum and a game that her mum played with her, which is that, like, you know, think of something. What can you see? What can you hear? Yeah, what can you feel? And it's so subtly done and perfect for a child to learn this new skill that they, and they don't even know that they're learning a new skill to manage their emotions and anxiety.

It's brilliant. It's brilliant. It's actually a self-help book, guys. If I had done you as a child, I'd been so jealous of Colin. Yeah, great dog. Having this sausage dog that can just sort of lick your nose and hang out with you. And then I'd been very jealous of Bell, the winter sprites, just having... I want to be Bell.

That's my favourite character. Yeah. That's who you'd play in the adaptation. I think I'd probably, I'm in the casting bracket for Lady Partridge these days. I think if it's your book, you get to cast a... yourself wherever you are. Oh yeah, maybe. Maybe I can be Bell. Yeah, Bell's amazing. And so, actually, the other question I have for you is about in terms of the future,

you're going to be visiting these worlds. I am, yeah, there will be a second one of Lydia, but, um, which I've sort of writing the moment. What about you, Susan? I wrote it as a standalone, but there is a moment at the end, like right at the end where, you know, there could be a story, you could continue that story. I mean, I'm writing another, well, I'm writing a book for adults and a book for kids at the moment at the same time. How do you find that balancing the two? I kind of have to do one or the other.

I can't really, and like I haven't done any work on my adult book at the moment because I'm thinking I'm very much in the world between the rain. Writing an adult book felt really freeing. It's, I'm writing that and it is so nice when people can swear. There's a possibility there could be a sequel, but I'm not. When I started writing that, I had imagined it as a quartet and it was going to be, that was the water book and it was going to be like the four elements. Yeah, yeah. But I'm not so sure about that now. The world between the soil. The world between the pebbles.

Oh, yes. Yes, Susan, right. Yes. Well, thank you so much for coming in. Thank you. Thank you to both of you. Dr. Susan. The Christmas Wistastrophe is up now.

And The World Between the Main by Dr. Susan. It's also available to buy now. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for listening to Weirdo's Book Club. The Christmas Wistachstaffee is available to buy now. My novel Weirder and Carrie Ann's nonfiction book, you are not alone, also both out of paperback.

You can find out all about the upcoming books we're going to be discussing on our Instagram at Sarah and Carriads Weirdo's Book Club. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you.