Sara & Cariad's Weirdos Book Club - The Cut by Richard Armitage with Richard Armitage

Episode Date: June 4, 2026

This week's book guest is The Cut by Richard Armitage.Sara and Cariad are joined by the award-winning actor and author Richard Armitage himself.In this episode they discuss forensics, cello, bullying, Susan Pascoe and Gary Barlow.Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you!Follow Sara & Cariad’s Weirdos Book Club on Instagram @saraandcariadsweirdosbookclubProduced, recorded and edited by Naomi Parnell for Plosive.Artwork by Welcome Studio.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Sarah Pasco. And I'm Carriead Lloyd. And we're weird about books. We love to read. We read too much. We talk too much. About the too much that we've read. Which is why we created the weirdos book club. A space for the lonely outsider to feel accepted and appreciated. Each week we're joined by amazing comedian guests and writer guests to discuss some wonderfully and wonderfully and crucially weird books, writing, reading and just generally being a weirdo. You don't even need to have read the books to join in. It will be a really interesting, wide-ranging conversation and maybe you'll want to read the book afterwards. We will share all the up coming books we're going to be discussing on our Instagram, Sarah and Carriads, Weirdo's Book Club. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you. This week's book guest is The Cut by Richard Armitage. What's it about? Well, 30 years ago, one of Ben Not's school friends was murdered. Another went to prison. The story ended or did it. Because now her killer is back. What qualifies it for the Weirdos Book Club? Well, it's always the weirdos that get bullied at school. In this episode, we discuss, forensics, cello, bullying, Susan Pascoe.

and Gary Barlow. And joining us this week is Richard Armitage himself. Richard is a multi-award-winning stage screen and voice actor, best known for his roles in Peter Jackson's Trilogy of the Hobbit, Captain America, Alice Through the Looking Gas, and Ocean's Eight. His debut, Geneva, was a Sunday Times top five crime debut and a number one audible bestseller. Richard Armitage!

Hello. Hello. Thank you so much for being here. Hello. Richard and I met at a Faber event four years ago. Oh, Richard and I met at the Pancratic Cancer UK Christmas concert. Yes. We had separate social incidents.

That's such a mixture of words. Yeah, yeah. Separate social incidents. That's a nice phrase. What was yours four years ago? Did Richard remember you? I did. I remember your speech.

You were hilarious. And I was like, how do you follow that? Oh, no. He didn't remember me. That's why I aimed for a book of events. No, I did remember you. You just look really casual in summary today. Oh, yeah.

I was Christmas. You would trust up like a Dickens' character. Yes, yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, we're in the church and we were being obviously serious. What did you do for your favour? So we, it's for booksellers, isn't it? It's a favourite spring event. Oh, that one where they do all. You're lucky you get to do it.

So you get a little section. But that's the one where I felt like I was very rude to a poet because I told him, my dog would like his poetry. Because the poem was about a raven being eviscerated. I've got a sort of a terrier who absolutely loves dead birds. So I didn't mean it in a rude way, like your poetry is for dogs. I feel like you're onto something here, though. Poetry for dogs. I feel like that might sell.

Yeah. I would sell. Or poetry about dogs for dogs. Oh my God. That's by the tills at W.A. Smith, isn't it? Yeah, Christmas gift. One of my early inventions that I never did was books for children to read to their pets. And that's what you could do. Why aren't you pitching you? Very sweet.

Why aren't you pitching that? You should don't put this on the blood. It's very sweet. I'm just imagining a little girl trying to do Shakespeare to their cat. Yeah, exactly. And sometimes you've sort of run out of stuff to do with your cat or your dog or your hamster. But you should be pitching this to her, Okay. Cheshire children's.

This is a great idea. This is a great idea. Well, we're not here to talk about my work when we met. It was your very first book. Which was very successful. Very successful. hugely successful. I don't know.

I don't. I'm like I don't read reviews. I don't pay attention. I suppose I should. You've got nice quotes though on this new one. You must have known when you did book events, there were lots of people there. Yes. That's a good sign.

He won't by yourself. Yeah. I did. But I don't know what successful means in the literary world. I think it's lots of books sold, Richard. I know, but I can't bear to look at the numbers. It's like I can't bear to look at the followers on social media. I think that's really healthy.

I was told by someone at Faber that they had to protect you from women at book events. As in that they were full, but some of the women were a bit too keen to meet you. So I thought, oh, which is doing very well. Yes, we've got some really dedicated fans who actually make clothing in the style of the book covers and wear it. That is a sign of success, much better than yours. Yeah, because that's fans. That's like people who are buying into your world, you know? Because you're a successful actor.

Do you know that you're a successful actor? Is that also? Only because I keep getting hired again. Okay, great. Because at the end of the job, you always think, I'm never going to work again. And then you get another job. So you think, oh, okay, they must like me. It can't have been bad.

So that's great. Very low self-esteem. Well, that's why he's a writer, right? Exactly. And so then getting to write a second book, did you then start to think, oh, I'm getting hired again? Or did you know you were going to write a second one? I, yeah, I'd spoken to Audible, because these are audio first, and I'd sort of spoken to Audible about the possibility of a second and pitched the idea for the second when the first was going into print.

The third book that I've just finished, that was more me begging Audible to say, please let me write another one for you. Because I think it's quite an unusual format for them to be commissioning audio originals. I don't know how long that model is sustainable for. Maybe it'll just be three, but it's an unusual way into writing, because these were never intended to be printed. That's amazing. This was a complete surprise to me.

In fact, I remember sitting with my agent saying, do you think one day there might be a paper copy? It's like, well, whether they'd let you or not. And then Fabor, Louisa at Faber at the Christmas party, I'm convinced she got drunk and then just sort of like, Speed read it and went, yeah, we'll buy that. But they came to me and really enjoyed it. Oh, that's really, really good.

Yeah, that's really, really good. I think that must be a sign of you've written something excellent. Faber is very, very fussy. Faber we always say, don't we? It's a good book. We're like, oh, it's a ferv. Yeah, it's a ferv. They're choosy, choosy.

I kind of got chills when my agent said Fabor because, obviously, you've got grown up with Faber and Fabor and one of my first experiences on stage was in Cats, which was in Motey S. Eliot. It's how they're still afloat. You were in cats? I was. I didn't know you did musicals as well. Yeah.

Who were you in cats? I was a swing, so I played all of them cats. Yeah, all of them cats. Yeah, all of them cats. But the nerd in me, like, of course you studied the musical, but I'd gone into all of the T.S. Eliot books and the wasteland. Really imagining, like, you quoting the wasteland to the musical theatre cast of Cats being like, sorry, Richard, we're not here.

Here's a sort of fun trivia fact. So the only reason you go to see cats is, because you want to hear the song Memory. Right? And the Rum Tom Tucker, who's really funny. Well, all of the poems are in the old Possum's book of Practical Cats. But memory, you're like, that's a standalone song. Except there's a passage of it that's in the wasteland.

When you can find it, you're like, there's a passage of memory in the wasteland? Yes. That's insane. It's slightly reworked, but you're like, that's where they got it from. So there's a bit of a tie-in. Well, that's a great poem.

When I first started working with Faber, and they said, someone said to me, cats, it was massive when they did the film release because they're still within the rights period and they said, it's keeping us afloat, that and Sally Rooney, now rigid armatage. And I said, I'd love to write you a musical of The Wasteland if you ever want one.

I used to have that in my set, do you remember? True. Yeah, I've written a musical of The Wasteeland. I used to go, Wasteland, I always wanted you don't know. I'm so sorry, I've stolen your idea. I'll tell them that you'll do it then. Unfortunately, that is it. That's the musical.

Well, you'll come up with other stuff. It's not a musical out of anything. Yeah, that's really good. That's really, really good. Wow. That was a tangent, wasn't it? Yeah, which we love. So we went off on one that.

So Geneva started as audio. Yes. And then this one, you thought it wouldn't get into print either. It began its life. You were thinking, this is probably going to be audio. I think by that point, we were doing audio, but Faber had said that, yes, we'll print it. Yeah, before they read it.

And you do the audio. It's all you. Yeah. Yeah. So you've kind of given you. have an acting part the same way. The weird prescription that Audible come up with is you've got to write something that you can perform that's the primary character. And if you can, sort of align it with something that people might imagine you being in as an actor. And one of the notes that came

back from when I was first drafting Geneva was, oh, you're focusing too much on the female lead character. Your character's fading into the background. What do you mean my character? The character we see you reading. So I had to realign that. But it's because I was more interested in her than I was in him. Yeah. What a note. I know. Don't worry about the women. Yeah, yeah.

You're focusing too much on that woman. Oh. Everyone cares about women. So you've got amazing. Amazing quotes. So I wanted to know. Is Mark Billingham your friend? I've met Mark Billingham.

I wouldn't call him a friend, but I haven't met him. A proper bloody thriller. Which I guess the reason that's a great quote is what it's saying is, this isn't an actor doing something else. Yeah. This is a really great thriller, even if someone didn't know you as an actor. That's nice. Yeah.

Thanks, Mark Billingham. Have you not, you so don't look at it. You haven't even read the quote on your cover. So I met Mark Bellingham. That's why I was asking. And then he put a character in a book inspired by me. Because he used to be a stand-up comedian. Did he?

Yeah. So I met him at a gig in Finchley. And I was chain-smoking at the time. Wait, I know that gig in Finchley. I know that gig in Finchley. That's where I met him too, but not the same gig. You see, my favourite thing is to do this, is to do like, terrific Daily Mail.

The actual quote was, this is a terrific, bloody mess. chilling. Well, Harlan Coe. Well, Harlan is a friend. Yeah. When it's a single word they, you're like, you can make it. I guess, but I think with thrillers, that's what you want people to know. You don't want to say, this will take you down.

Remember, it's like, boom, boom, terrific. Halen Coebloody. I mean, he is so terrific at page ternary. You just need to know what happened. So getting a chilling from Harlan Cobain is a huge compliment. It's big, isn't it? Yeah. Anyway, you did read it.

You love your thrillers. I love your thrillers. I love thrillers. Yeah. And that's what I was going to say about Mark Billingham. So he made a Susan Pascoe in one of his books. It was chain smoking. And someone said, have you ever met Mark Bullenum?

I think he's put you in there. Yeah, you're in there. Yeah, and apparently does it a lot with comics. It sticks a little character in there. Susan Pascoe. Susan for alter ego. So next book, Richard, can we have Sally Pascoe who you meet at a book event? Yeah, and then she's dead.

You probably get a Pascoe. It's good, isn't it? It's got a good surname. He's giving D.L. Do you like villain or hero? Either. Either. Okay.

Very happy. But it just has to be a chain smoker. No. And it's just for the other day. Just please. Yes, please. I knew nothing. I didn't know what to expect when it came to the cut.

I didn't read the blur, but the back. I just started reading it. Did you as well? Yeah, also, I'm not a thriller. I get quite scared. Sarah reads the thrillers. I was worried about you at the beginning. I know.

And I would like to say for people scared, it's not a scary, scary thriller. It's not one way. It's scary, but it's not like I can cope. Yeah, yeah. And in terms of the world, it feels very real. Yes. I mean, it's not. I don't like those.

Unrealistic. Like, yeah, I felt like I was watching a good scary film that was, but there was enough reality and the characters were grounded enough. It wasn't just like, oh, God, I just don't like what's happening. Well, you were watching a scary film because a scary film is being made. Yeah, but you know when they, like it in the characters aren't real, and all you're thinking is just someone's going to die at any minute. Yes.

I liked that Richard grounded it in reality. So you felt like you knew those characters as well. It wasn't just because what I don't like, feel is that, like, from page one, you're like, well, who's going, someone's going to die? I like that you were giving us background. Yeah, I mean, I think I'd, I always say I've got one wheel in psychological thriller and one in crime thriller. But I remember having to pull the wheels back into crime thriller by quite late in the day deciding to write that idea of the film being made as rather than it being a documentary that it was going to be a horror film. And I think it was around the anniversary of Blair Witch Project because do you remember that film?

Yeah, yeah. And I remembered the marketing campaign for that film where they had to. line of empty chairs on stage and were like, well, none of the actors could be here today because they all died during the making of the film. And it was brilliant. It was so brilliant because you were like, oh, it's real. They're not actors. And that's what I thought, oh, that blurring of the line between what's real and what's performed. Why don't you tell us what it's about? So it's set between 1993 and the present day. It's about a group of school kids who were at their high school graduation. I call them the gang of five because that was my school group.

at the graduation ceremony one of the girls dies and one of her classmates goes to prison but it was being captured on film and nobody realized and in the present day a filmmaker comes back to the village

because the killer is about to be released from prison and he knows that the wrong man went to prison so he's there to interrogate what really happened by making a found footage horror film including the children And this isn't a spoiler, so quite early on you'll find out.

It's two of the people cast are children of people who were involved in that gang of fire. Yeah. So who are really related in that night and no truer or different versions of what happened. And the reader is sort of drip-fed information about what did happen. Yes. It's not like at the beginning you go, this was the murder weapon. This is the person who went to prison. All of these things you're finding it out.

Yeah, and you're constantly like, oh, I thought, oh, can I trust that person, actually? You're sort of being constantly led. Oh, great. by different people. Yeah, yeah. I suppose one of the things I wanted to do was the person that, the person that really is the killer, well, you're not quite sure who is, but I wanted to, I wanted the parent to experience what he went through by putting his kids through it.

So you're sort of watching it third hand because it's sort of about bullying and misogyny and racism that was around in my school days. But then when those people grow up and their kids, kids come into the world. You're like, well, you need, I wanted to put their kids through it so that they'd feel what it was like. Yeah, yeah. Suddenly had that proper empathy, which had been missing perhaps in 1993. I love the flashback stuff as someone who remembers 1993. That's when we were at school. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I found some of it really like, did you, some stuff, I was like, oh, yeah, like just some of the way you're painting what 1993 was like. And also, like you said, the level of

misogyny and racism that was sort of casual in school in these days, which not to say it's 100% better. I don't think it is. But it was like very... But at least there's more recognition that it's wrong now. Yeah, yeah. If someone went home, it wouldn't be like that school or or that kind of parenting where I came from, which was, well, then hit them back. That's exactly what I got. I was like, you're going to learn to fight your own battles. It was like, wow. And it's seen as, yeah, that's supposed to toughen you up rather than someone saying, this shouldn't be happening to you, it's not fair. Or the other child needs to be learning to empathize or control their... Yeah. Especially in terms of bullying, I think.

I mean, there is a lot of bullying in this book, a lot of like... And homophobic bullying. But that hardcore, like, thing that made me of, like, trying to get home or smoking outside of your school and then, like, people turning up in the gang that you're not your gang and just like the shit that would be chatted. You know what I mean? Where people are just standing around smoking. But it was so horrible to each other. And gang mentality as well.

Yeah, yeah. Like, it was always, when you're on your own, you don't have any sounding board. But the minute people start to group together, you're like, oh, they suddenly become. become really powerful. Interesting that everybody's had one of those school experiences. Did you go to a comp? Yeah. Also, I was punched only once, and then I wondered if you'd been punched,

because that thing of it being like a split second, you describe it as sort of a flash of white, and that's the thing that's so surprised me about being punched in the face. And I'm lucky it's only happened to me once in my life. But I was just, I was so surprised by the sort of the blackoutness of it. Yes. Have you ever punched in the face? I used to go home quite regularly with a bleeding nose, but I don't remember the punches.

It's so weird. I remember the bleeding nose, and I remember my mom kind of holding my head back because I'd come home from being punched. I remember the one punch I threw after maybe seven or eight years of receiving these punches, and this kid was going for me again. That's when I had the whiteout, because I don't know where it was like a rush adrenaline, and suddenly he was on the floor, and I don't know. I don't remember the feeling in my hand, but he was on the floor. And I was like, that was a culmination of a lot of suppressed anger. So were you, for a long time, or was there, like, one person kind of, like, just being an asshole? It was one person who rallied a group against me.

And I could, you could always see there were some people that were reluctant followers and some people that were, like, just sort of the backup singers. It's a great description of them. And the cut refers to the shortcut home, which was the, this little pathway, because I lived in a fairly rural village between the school and my house, but it had a bend in it and this, like, fenced off so you couldn't see around the corner. But it was the only way I could get home and I would get there every day and turn the corner and they'd be standing at the end.

Oh, that fear. I've got it. I can't go back because they'd come around the back as well and see you were trapped in this, like, rat run. I'm so sorry. So I hated school. And actually, I wasn't severely bullied. When I went to therapy, my therapist said I wasn't bullied.

I just wasn't liked. Okay. Which is better? I don't know. I think that's harsh of your therapist to say that. It was pretty harsh, but it's why I say it. But I just stopped going to school because the fear of being at school constantly and not knowing who was going to be in a class, it was just better not to go in. And I know the relief every day when I would get out of the gates because once I was on a bus, I was fine.

There wasn't anyone I lived far further away from the school. Yeah. But that thing of like the constant. dread. And God, I always get really emotional. I had a thing at Hay a couple of years ago when someone asked me about being 14 and unhappy. It's like, it just gets better when you're not stuck at school with those people. You just have to get through this bit. Well, I'm convinced that's why I got out of school and couldn't wait to get away from my small town and traveled the world doing the thing I love. I kind of went all the way to Blumman, New Zealand, but there were people that didn't. They stayed in the village. And that's what this is about, is, you know,

happens to those wounds as when you've become adults. So I've always said in a way, if I hadn't experienced that at school, I wouldn't really have any fuel in my engine because it really, I decided, I remember thinking, okay, that's either going to cripple you or it's going to fuel you for the rest of your life. And it wasn't all bad, you know, there was fun to be had. And that's why I tried to create some funny moments. Yeah, I think you've done a really good job of that as well, of like you said how at school you're sometimes hanging around with these people who are so horrible to each other in one second

and then you'd be like, were you friends? Yeah, we're mates. Of course we're mates. And you're like, oh, it doesn't sound like you. Like you look back and you're like, the thing you've created in that gang of five, that very sort of strange, why are these people hanging out with each other? You can't trust anyone.

You're not being able to trust. You can't, if you tell your best friend at 14 or 15 or 16 a secret, I mean, because you're so close. and you do have to talk to someone. There's that and that's very realistic. Also, the other thing about the 90s is that people could phone your house. Yeah, I know.

And they'd speak to your parents. And they put on a nice world, hello, it's so, so. And your parents wouldn't know. But I guess now they have the internet. So it all continues all the time. I don't know. I mean, I don't know how kids are dealing with it.

I'm sort of, I've incorporated that a little bit into the present day with the kids being groomed online. But, you know, I don't think I'd have survived. if I could if I was going home and being bullied on social media it's like I don't know well weirdly my school days were the actual were the 80s but I had to shift it a decade because um portable video cameras didn't come out until the late 90s and I remember thinking oh but I want to write all about 80s music and so I had to just shift it a decade because I definitely needed a camera I needed it to be on on film Lynette is listening to geran at one point isn't she and I was like oh he

years old of me because I was like but I was sat in you know I guess I'm like late at 90s being at school and I was listening to Johnny Mitchell do you know what I mean? So like it doesn't

I know it's slightly out of time. Watching Red Wolf. I was watching Redwarf. I was watching Redwar listening to Joanie Mitchell. Pretty cool. You know it's really weird well we had a...

Actually this is this was my first detail and I love this so very early on character is described as the sort of dishy one from Take That Oh yes! And two pages later, it's Gary Barlow.

I nearly messaged you. Do you think Gary Barlow is the dish you want and take that? I nearly message you to be like, oh, which I think Gary's the dish? At the time, wasn't he? Wow. Well, it depends. I think on your age. I think it's an age thing.

Who should it have been? It's not should. It's like older people would have said Gary. That's just stress. Gary Barlow is such a handsome man and a hugely talented. Ten-year-old girls would have said Mark or Robbie. No, it was all Michael Robbie. So it was really funny.

And I loved it for Gary. If Gary was reading your book, he would be shocked to find out that he was the dish he wouldn't say that. I mean, I suppose it's also less about what he looked like and more about he was the front man. Yes. And they're old. That's what I mean. They're older kids, so they would maybe think that Gary was like. Yeah.

But like, oh, poor Gary. Gary was bullied. Did I get that wrong? No, he didn't get it wrong. No, no. It was they were so horrible to him about his weight. Really, really horrible. Yeah. And they take that documentary.

He had an eating disorder for. decades. Oh my gosh. But what a talent. And what a talent. And he is a dish and it's just so nice. Yeah. It's because it came into a bit of him.

Exactly. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Because you're expecting Mark. Yeah. Well, our gem would expect Mark because that's, you know, we were like.

Oh, then you get to our age and you look back at Jason and Howard. Jason Howard. What were we doing? How could we have missed them? Two manly. The supermodels at the back. Yes. Stunning.

Yeah, the backing dancers. Yeah. What was the process of writing this for you? How much do you know in advance? I'm joining in the same question. I'm not giving a different question. Because that's what I thought is like, because you leak the information out so carefully.

Yeah. And keep us always in the dark. Do you have a strong little big whiteboard with like names and red tape everywhere? That was quite late in the day. I knew the destination and I knew I knew she. Have I spoiled it. Yeah, don't swear. Someone has to die.

And I knew that the sort of final setup, I knew I kind of wrote the end. first and then figured out how the pathway to getting there. Once I worked out that, then I started being able to write the present day scenes that would correspond with what was happening because I wanted everything happening in present day to just reference something in the past. So then I did get blue and pink cue cards and lay them all out on the table because we needed to be jumping sort of nicely between present past, present past. And there was a lot of reshuffling that happened at the end.

I've never done that before, but I had to give each. chapter, a kind of a headline, which really helps, because then you realize, oh, I've got a completely superfluous chapter here, because I can't actually define what happens in the thing. Yes. Yeah. That's a, I think that is a very helpful writing exercise. So what is this one for? Because if it isn't for anything, it's just she-lover. Yeah. No matter how well it's written, yeah. It has to be from, you learn this and get to there. Something shifts in this, in this scene. I always call them scenes because they are. Yeah, yeah. Well, I was wondering that about all of the directing, a few directors.

things as well. Are you interested in directing? Because this feels like a book where the director is much more than lots of other ones, actually showing you where to look. Yes. I mean, I don't know if I ever will direct, because I think we've got plenty of male directors in the world. I'm always championing female directors because the balance is off. Then at Amazon hear about that. No, stop caring about women. I've just come off a television show and we've got a kind of split, they're both male and female directors, and it's so interesting when you get, a different point of view. It's just looking at something different and they're putting the camera on something in a

different way, which is why I picked Corinne to be the sort of driving force of the film. Because you get both male and female perspectives. I love Corinne. I also, my husband's a filmmaker and I really recognize that really like sort of quite ruthless like footage is that get the footage. Fuck everything get the footage. Like I've definitely met those people in my time were being married to a writer-director of people who just, all that matters is the film and the story. And it doesn't matter what else happens. Well, her character sort of, because I wanted her to come from a documentary background, because I was obsessed with shows

like The Staircase and the Jinks. Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah. Have you seen either of those? I have. You have, okay. Because I, I don't mind that to me. It's like a good documentary. They are. It's not just, I'd rather watch that than a drama when it's a real person. You know, this person could be the murderer on film. Yeah, yeah. And they're going, oh, this is what I did. And he doesn't know it. That's what I'm just like.

The jinx was the one, wasn't it? That was mad. I love that. With the off mic in the bathroom. Yes. Oh my God. That was incredible. The hairs are stunning.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But also you're watching it. It's not watching an actor. It's not watching someone who, you know, it's not watching a script. It's watching a real person convincing themselves their innocent. Yeah, yeah. Trying to navigate. And also the vanity of when someone puts a camera on you,

something happens to people when you film them. They shift between normal behaviour and slightly performed behaviour. And you can see truth or lies, I think. And psychopaths are doing an impression of what they think. It's masking, neurodiversity, really. They're doing an impression of what they think human beings behave like. Yes. And that's what's compelling.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. going, you are so close, but I absolutely know that you're not telling me the truth. Something's off, is it? That was the chapter or the scene that I was, you know, there's always one that you're like, I cannot wait to write this moment when at the very end, the filmmaker puts the camera on the person who he believes to be guilty and says, tell me what you did. I was like, I don't know what's going to happen. Because it's the scene, if I was, if I'd read the script, I'd go, I can't wait to play that

because I don't know, I don't know what's going to happen. Yeah. I love that you call them scenes because also it's like when when the football has a break I call it the interval because I cannot get my head around other words for it

like or backstage I think as an actor you just get this knowledge of these words and you're like it's a scene but also because you performed it on audible

before it was printed they are scenes yeah it's sort of a drama and a book right yeah I mean I think it's the way I write

I'm sort of creating the movie because I spent a lot of time chewing and procrastinating and I realise I'm visualising the world and what's going to happen in each moment. So, and I'll chew over a chapter first, create the movie in my head and then just go write it down. I mean, that feels like the easiest thing in the world to me because I'm a visual learner. So, you know, you said you obviously came from this small village, ended up being in this, you know, huge Hollywood films.

But was there a part of you that thought, I would like to write as well? Or has that been a kind of surprise addition to your career? It's been a surprise, yeah. I genuinely have lived all of my life with a slight kind of chip on my shoulder that I didn't go to university, but I was at drama school with like English majors from Cambridge. And always feeling like, oh, I'm a bit stupid, aren't I? I'll just shut up in the corner here and, you know, I'll do the Shakespeare, but there are other people's words.

But I think the toolkit that I've gathered from just the exposure I've had over the years to different kinds of drama texts, but also reading for audio, I read, I'd never say no to an audiobook because I just love it. It's such a great exercise for an actor because you get to direct and be the architect and all of that. So I feel like I got to a point where when I was asked to write, because I didn't submit to audible, they said, do you fancy writing something? I went, yeah, brilliant. And then went, oh, shit. But then I just thought, I've got the story in my head. I've just got to get it out and organize it. And I do, I did think, I've gotten a piece of opinion, I've got, I definitely have a way of expressing myself. So here's a chance to explore.

Were you, like, you someone who liked reading thrillers beforehand? Is that kind of, you were like straight away, I know what it's going to be quite a theory. I was a bit more, um, fantasy science fiction. I really got into thrillers, obviously, when I started working on a little, a big old Lord the Rings little moment there, which I very much enjoyed when the, and the maps inside the book. Yes, yes, of course. They're all little talking notes. I love following a map. I remember tracing the journey to Merckwood and Downton's like, why didn't they go this way?

Yeah, it was so good. So, yeah, I was fantasy science fiction. I got more into thriller as I got older and started recording them, but also working on the Harlan Coburn books and seeing how they adapted for screen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they've done lots of Harlan Coben that there are lots of on Netflix, aren't they? I'm too scared to watch them. They're not scary.

They're twisty. It's, if you're scary, it's, it's, it's, I know, I'm scary. Okay. I'd say it's similar in that it's very, very real world setup mostly. Yeah. Well, they're all American, but they translated into a UK setting. So it feels very relatable. Oh, so you're not having to do like American accent and stuff.

No. No accents. I'm sure you can, Richard. I think Dexter was in one. The actor who played Dexter and he put on an English accent. That was the fight. So did you feel on doing those adaptations? Did you kind of pick up like, oh, this is a good suspenseful.

Like, did you feel like you were learning from the way he tells a story? Yeah, I think the, I think, because I've worked on quite a lot of four, six and eight episode projects in television. So how to structure becomes quite clear. And you see what gets taken out in the edit and you see how it's paced. Yeah, yeah. You know, you shoot brilliant scenes and then they kind of go, sorry, we're going to have to cut it because it's slowing things. down. So when it came to sort of structuring my book and both of them, yeah, you really, you can see where it's getting weighed down with a great scene and or a great chapter

where you've put all of your research in and it's, you know, he's giving a lecture and you're like, yeah, but it's not interesting. You've got to get rid of it. But that's really interesting that you're able to do that because I think, I mean, I think you seem like a very analytical person that you can, you can learn, even as an actor watching an Oh, I see that's what's been done there and apply it to yourself. Because lots of people can't. It's really, really hard to learn. And it's why people need editors and things because when it's yours, it all feels so necessary.

I think it's because I started, really started when I was four years old as a sort of song and dance man, but then I was a musician and I feel like getting in front of a microphone to record someone else's work, you're sort of orchestrating the words into something that's, to me, an audiobook is music. It's got to, it ebbs and flows. You've got to drive this point. You know, you've got to pace it up. You've got to slow it down.

It's a score of music. So you can really feel when it's not in the right place. We did an episode with Juliette Stevenson about audiobooks because she is like queen of the audiobooks. And I think that's really interesting what you're saying is music because Juliet has such a musicality to her voice as well. That's why people love listening to her. Oh, that voice. reading you anything. And she has read so many. What's your favorite audio one you've done? There's one like stuck with you. Weirdly, it's a nonfiction. And I got, it's Marcus Aurelius

meditation. Oh, wow. Which I thought it's not, I thought you're going to be like, oh, economics of the 20th century. It's like, oh no, okay. But I did get it and think, oh, gosh, this is going to be hard work. This is going to be heavy. And I started recording it and thinking, I'm going to treat this like, literally like a meditation tape of just little samples of nuggets of thoughts and ideas and therapeutic sentiment. And it was probably one of them, it had the most impact on me because I really, and I really enjoyed it. And I actually give that book now as gifts to people. Not your audiobook. Not the audio book, no, just a little. Would you like to listen to me as you go to sleep? If I learned so much from it, it's great. It's amazing. The book is like,

said kind of based on your where you grew up. Yeah. Have you, because it's interesting what you're talking about in terms of your school life, have you had any body from the past get in touch? Like, have you, no, I think I've hidden it enough. Although on the book tour, I'm going to Kibworth. Oh, Kibworth, yeah. Which is very close to where I grew up. So I've got a feeling. There's an amazing bookshop called Kibworth Books. Yeah, yeah. I'm a bit nervous. I think some people from my school are going to come out of the wood. work and start getting mad at me or throwing books at me. I don't know.

But you've got all those ladies to defend you. They'll all rise up. They'll be there. They'll be like, no. Yeah. I mean, I buried it enough. I mean, there's loose references to real events, but it's just always inspired by.

I'm going to say something awful, which is, Kibworth is up north. Up north. Where is it? It's Leicestershire. It's not that far. Yeah, yeah. But yes, I went to Kibworth books with my kids book

and the amazing woman who runs out of it. You loved her, didn't you? I get jealous when character has other friends. So as a performer, because, you know, a book comes out and then you have to do, are you going to hay and things like that? Do you enjoy those things? Do you know what? I do.

And I always think, should I, should I do some research back? Should I read the book again? And I don't often have the time. But then when you get there and you sit down and start talking about it, especially because when it's a good interviewer and they've really read the book, it just, the conversation just flows because I realize I know every inch of this. I wrote every word. So I know without having to remind myself, it's all there.

But my favourite bit is when they throw questions out to the audience. Well, because people, everyone will see something different, especially with something like this, because, you know, as we were saying, we've all had school days. So everyone else has got their own experience that you've somehow triggered something in their head, which is, to me, the best gift. That's the goal is not to make them think about this book necessarily. When they finished it, I'd like them to think about their own school experience.

Yes. Yeah, and who they'd kill. Yeah. Do you have someone lined up in your head? Or have you snuck someone in? Like Sarah got snuck in, Susan Pasco? You haven't snucked too. Is there anything in the works for these to be adapted? Yes. So Sony have Geneva and we've got script. We've got one episode of, our first episode of Geneva, which is really so exciting when you've seen how someone else has reinterpreted it.

Yeah. For the cut, Jed McCurio's company has it. And we don't have a script, but we have a breakdown, which is exciting. And again, quite different from the book. So actually much more focused on the present day. And the past is going to be sort of more images and flickering cinematography from the past. We're not going to exist in the past so much. So it's more about seeing the past through the found footage kind of thing.

Exactly. Yeah. Oh, wow. And are you, have you made sure, it is the contract say, and I am in it? It sort of says I have to be in it. Yeah, yeah. But TV development really takes a long time. So I'm going to be pushing 60 by the time.

I'm going to be playing the granddad that's dying and in the chair. Well, you could rewrite it, couldn't you? You could be like, oh, actually, this character now has an important doctor arrives. Oh, I've got another, this is sorry, this is such a tangent. Go on. But do you ever watch Arrested Development? Because you know it's a Mark Cherry in a Rested Development? I haven't.

Is there a Mark Cherry in a rest of development? rest of development. Who's Mark Jerry in the new series? So they remade, after the huge success, Netflix did like an original reworking and there's an exercise. And Mark Cherry is a pop star that Will Arnett's character, they call him Getaway and he just drives the memo for. Mark Cherry is sort of based on like a Justin Biebery kind of.

And then he writes a song called Get Away, Get Away about Will Arnett. I have to watch this now. Oh, it's great. And then Will Onet, he's driving the, he's got a, he's got a, he's got this bee farm and all of his bees have been six so he's taken around to the boot of the limo and then there's a joke

they make him like put up the glass and then all the bees get out and all the characters get stung and have to go to hospital this sounds brilliant is this the second the remake this is in the remixed ones

so it's remixed the remixed ones yeah so I think series four and five I wish I'd written that I wish I'd written that Mark Cherry has a bee colony yeah it's an obscure thing

that would have been a great defence wouldn't it stay away from me otherwise my bees are going to be Yeah, if you're being bullied, get some bees. Get some bees. Put the queen in the back of your hood and they'll follow you all right. I really enjoy your character is called Mark Cherry. He plays cello and so at school they call him Marcello.

And I was like, that's so that absolute school logic that will stay with someone for the rest of their life. And the lack of imagination. There was a girl called Haley and the woman was that she did Harry Poo's. And then that's just her name forever. Harry Poo, Haley. Harry Poo Haley. Yeah. What was I reading I did?

I did, but a boy said he went into a toilet after her. Oh, that's so mean. I know. But she was mean, actually, I should say. You don't realize as well how, you live in such close contact with your schoolmates. They sort of know everything about you. Intimately. And it's like, ah, don't.

And there's not escaping from it. No. I think that's why I'm an actor, though, because I, because it was a great, because you can slide into someone else's skin and be like, don't look at me, look at him. Yeah. Which is, it's nice. I think that's where I've found like a little haven to, you know, saying other people's words. But like you said, it does feel, there's so many actors that have had difficult experiences. Like, that's what drives you to hide.

Otherwise, it isn't an unusual thing to do. And also to want to understand other people at really early age. Yeah. Actors have to be interested in. Why are they doing that? And why are they different to me? And what does it feel like? Well, I always think that's why, and not to get too serious about it, I'm always like, I think drama should be on the curriculum,

compulsory on the curriculum, because. it's not until you say, okay, now you be the victim, now you play the bully, see what it feels like. It's like the best therapy in the world. That's kind of why I wrote the little drama scene with the Shakespeare and because they're sort of experiencing, I mean, puberty was such a massive thing in school as well, because people are kind of developing at different stages and you're like very aware that someone's... Oh, that scene was really good when it's like, they know there's a kiss coming. And they're like, we've got to do this and we want to do this. We just don't want to do it in front of you. Because I remember that feeling. It's so weird.

Well, you win a lot of plays and musicals at school then? I was more, I was actually a cellist. So, yeah, we used, I wasn't, yeah, we didn't do a lot of plays. We'd do a lot of little shows. But I would disappear at my hiding place at lunchtime was I'd go up to the stage and hide behind the curtains with two girls, one played the clarinet, and one played the flute, and we'd do little music sessions with each other. But it was great, but we'd do it really quietly so they wouldn't come find us.

But it was like, we'd spend an hour just playing. music. I was like, well, so my escape is developing my musical brain in retrospect. That's so sad, you couldn't even play it loudly. And they'd find you. You've made it really easy, Richard. We heard the cello. We can hear you. Art department or music room would be like, we'll take you for lunchtime. The best places in school. Yeah, yeah, because they'd be like, you're supposed to be outside. I don't want to. I used to read Enid Blyton in the toilets. And don't imagine me younger than 15. I love it.

Whatever works, you know? Yeah, whatever works. Whatever works to get you through. Yeah, it's extraordinarily hard time. And I think that's also what's really interesting about this book. And it doesn't leave you. Actually, this is what I should say. I'm 45 and in my standoff, I'm still processing stuff

because it isn't just, oh, I remember it nostalgically. I think the emotions from there still live on in you. It's a story you do sort of find yourself wanting to talk. about again and again? I think because you're so malleable at that age and things get set in you. And what gets set more than anything is your opinion of yourself because you're learning who you are from other people. So when they're saying things about you, that's solidifying in your head and you spend

the rest of your life. That's why I don't read reviews because I'm like it's the same kind of dead. Because for all of the compliments, I'll remember the one. And I still, I've got one that I shouldn't have read. And I cannot get it out of my head. Yeah, it gets tattooed on your brain. It does. And then you go, that's a really great phrase.

Isn't that silly though? But isn't it? Well, it's human, isn't it? There's a evolutionary theory that we have to learn from negative things to protect ourselves. Right. Okay. And so people have written entire books about it. And actually, when you were a life performer, a very similar thing is that if you look at an audience of people, you just keep focusing on the person with their arms folded.

It looks like they're not enjoying it. Yawning. Yeah. Because. in terms of good things, they aren't a danger to us, but things that are negative, we need to learn to avoid next time, da-da-da-da-da.

So unfortunately, our brain is programmed to be much more receptive to negative information. Yeah. Which means that the internet is just an absolute killer. Well, I think you do what you're doing. Avoidance. You then go, it's not good for me. And also, we used to always say at Edinburgh,

didn't we, if, like, the good reviews don't mean anything. The bad ones don't mean anything. So if you, if you minimise the good ones, you should also minimize the bad ones. You should be treating them the same rather than like, oh yeah, they said I was great, but this one's tattooed. It's like, no, if you can throw that away, throw that one away as well.

I mean, and it is hard and I feel a little bit guilty sometimes because people do want to give you feedback. Yeah, yeah. You know, it is an exchange, you know. Theatre's the perfect example, is that you're sort of creating something for the person in the audience who's going to feel something about it. And afterwards, they want to express what they felt. But if I'm going, no, no, no, I don't want to know.

I feel so guilty and rude. but I don't know, I do the little stage door thing afterwards and you can feel it. But you also have to go back the next night and do it again. Do it again. So that's like, there's another contract with another audience. So if someone's like, oh, hey, I just want to point out that thing you're doing in line, you might not be able to do your job the next day. So you have to sort of create a boundary.

If someone said, okay, I loved it all apart from that moment, the next night just before you do that moment, all you're thinking is how many people are agreeing with that person? Am I making that moment even worse now? Are you all thinking? I'm putting the cup down wrong. He had a brilliant director who directed the crucible at the old Vic called Yard Faber, and she was so strict on the rehearsal room. She papered the door so you couldn't see it.

And she said to us, do not comment on each other's work to each other. Do not comment on the play and don't talk about the play outside this room. Wow. Because other people all have an opinion on this piece of work, and you're going to be infected by it. Yeah, that's great. And a similar thing with like if that's why not not reading reviews because if like you say, if it's mentioned, if there's a point mentioned, it becomes like a black spot. And also like if you have a wave of negative reviews and you have to go on and do 12 weeks performance with all of that, despite how full the audience is, it just never leaves you.

So it's best to just say that's none of my business. Yeah. Or something can't control. I love things like that with directors either, especially because the crucible is all such a bubble. isn't it? Yeah. I've just started watching the pit. Have you watched the pit?

I've started, yeah. So they're not allowed to take their... Oh, yeah. The phones on set. No, no, you have to learn all of their lines. No one's allowed sides. That's all the other than before. So they never look like actors.

So they only get their own part. So they learn the lines, but they're not allowed to take the sides to set. Okay. So it never looks like a set. It always feels... Like a hospital. Yeah. That's really good.

Isn't that great? Yes. That's really cool. saying to the people this isn't, yeah, you're walking into the real thing. Yes. When you say it, it's because that's the only thing you could possibly say. That's brilliant. Isn't it great?

I can't go over that marvellous. It's Noah Wiley, isn't it? He was so good in ER. I never watched ER. But it is an incredible performance. ER is so good. It's so, so good. And now he's a doctor again.

I just feel like, what previous life has had him? What did he do? He probably thinks he is a doctor now. Yeah, he does do. You can get yourself into that mindset. I've done doctoring on telly where you're kind of going, yeah, I could cut someone's chest open and restart their heart. Lay down, I'll do it for you now.

How are you balancing writing with acting? Because you're busy in both areas. Yeah, I was starting a new television show in January of this year. And the deadline for the third book was June, which feels like lots of knots of time. No, that's not lots of time, as we know. I had to finish it by December because I knew starting a new show, my head.

had to be in that. And we were working across all six episodes at the same time. So I had to learn all of the episodes. I've never done that before. So I did finish in December and I've just come back to it now to start re-editing. But it is quite hard to jump around. Although having said that, when I was writing the first book, I was on Stay Close and we were in lockdown. So I'd go home every night and get locked into my hotel room. And I was like, oh, great, I'll start writing the book. but it's so but it does it did get a little there's a bit of osmosis between the project I was working on as an actor and what I was writing I can actually identify obsession was the same I can see in geneva oh I was I was I was doing obsession when I wrote this chapter there's just these

little bits of influence but I don't mind that I think it's creativity as a yeah I do sometimes I feel like it's the world giving you things yeah where you go wow how how odd that that came from there and exactly right for this yeah as long as I'm very conscious like is that are you just literally plagiarizing the scene you've just shot in the morning. Yeah, that's a you have to check. You've got a check. Just don't be too obvious about it. You know, although I'm like, well, that's my scene.

So now this is my chapter. But no, I do write a lot on overnight flights from New York Sunday mornings. Yeah. Love a Sunday morning. I had a layover between New York and Dublin and I sat in the airline lounge writing. And I had to set an alarm because I've missed fly. lights before. Because when you get, you know what it's like when you get into your book and your story,

you just lose all track of time. Like five hours will just disappear. Well, that's the dream. That's when, like, being in the zone, that's the dream. You're very dedicated. Yeah. But I think travel so good. Trains, airports.

You're not going to check anything, especially if it's a time difference. You go, no one's messaging me work or anything. It's lovely. It's like a little no man's land. Yeah. But I feel like that with reading. I love losing time in a book because you, you've had this vacation. I think that's why everybody got into reading an audio books during lockdown

because you could just sort of suck up time and you'd be like, oh, it's now, it's 6 o'clock. Or it's 4 o'clock in the morning, I've had to put this down. Yeah, and also what I love, I mean, that's also why I love crime thrillers at university. That would be my, because I had a lot more time than the luxury of time starting a book at 9pm going, I'm not going to, I'm going to see this, I'm going to hear the birds. Yeah.

And then finish it. And thinking, oh, how early can I go to bed? Yes. I've got that book on and I want to get into it. Oh, Richard. sure people are going to be feeling that about the part. It's exactly the kind of book that's going to make you stay up all night or miss your tube stop. Yes, yeah, yeah, definitely.

Whether you listen to it or you buy it and read it, do both. Listen, hold the book while Richard reads it to you. And we've got a couple of signed copies for our Patreon's if anyone wants to win one. But if not, go out and buy it, please. For the weirdos. For the weirdos. Thank you so much. What's that it?

What's that it? Are we done? Yeah. Yeah. That's nice. Good talk and talk. And now if you can just play us out on your cello. Yeah.

Wastelead. I was what did you know? Thank you for listening to the Weirdo's Book Club. The Cut is out now. Go and get it. My kid's book about grief, where did she go, is available to buy it in paperback now.

I've got some gigs coming up in the summer listed on my website if you want to go to saraphasco.com. You can find out all about the upcoming books we're going to be discussing on this series on our Instagram at Sarah and Carriads Weirdo's Book Club. And please join us on Patreon.

We love you and for the support of the podcast. But we'll also be giving as a special gift to signed copies of the cut signed by Bridget Darmatage not by me dedicated to our special weirdos and we'll be giving those away so you can head to there and find out how exactly so thank you for reading with us we like reading with you