Sara & Cariad's Weirdos Book Club - The Kellerby Code by Jonny Sweet with Jonny Sweet

Episode Date: April 4, 2024

This week's book guest is The Kellerby Code by Jonny Sweet.Sara and Cariad are joined by the award-winning writer and actor Jonny Sweet himself to discuss murder, class, acknowledgements, P.G. Wodehouse and Boris Johnson! Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you!The Kellerby Code by Jonny Sweet is available to buy here or on Apple Books here.Sara’s debut novel Weirdo is published by Faber & Faber and is available to buy here.Cariad’s book You Are Not Alone is published by Bloomsbury and is available to buy here.Follow Sara & Cariad’s Weirdos Book Club on Instagram @saraandcariadsweirdosbookclub and Twitter @weirdosbookclub Recorded and edited by Naomi Parnell for Plosive.Artwork by Welcome Studio.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Sarah Pasco. Hello, I'm Carriad Lloyd. And we're weird about books. We love to read. We read too much. We talk too much. About the too much that we've read. Which is why we've created the Weirdo's Book Club.

Join us. A space for the lonely outsider to feel accepted and appreciated. A place for the person who'd love to be in a real book club, but doesn't like wine or nibbles. Or being around other people. Is that you? Join us. Check out our Instagram at Sarah and Carriad's Weirdos Book Club for the upcoming books we're going to be discussing. You can read along and share your opinions.

Or just skulk around in your raincoat like the weirdo you are. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you. This week's book guest is The Calabee Code by Johnny Sweet. What's it about? It follows Edward Jeevans, a chronic people pleaser and his very toxic relationship with his wealthy friends from university. What qualifies it for the Weirdo's Book Club?

Well, Edward has extreme social anxiety and catastrophic rages, which does lead to a lot of weird things happening. In this episode, we discuss murder, class, acknowledgements, Woodhouse, lockdowns and Boris Johnson. And joining us this week is Johnny Sweet. Johnny is an actor and writer who also currently has a film out at the moment, wicked little letters in the cinema, and this is his first novel. The Kelly Be Code by Johnny Sweet is out now.

Johnny Sweet. Johnny Sweet. You said it like you're about to do a chant now. Johnny Sweet sounds like a character in a book, don't you think? Yeah, when I first saw your name, I thought it wasn't real. Did you? Yeah, because I was like, no one's called that. Or like a comedy pseudonym. But that is your real name.

It is actually. It's a great name. And you've written a great book called the Kelleby Code. As soon as I started reading this, Carriad, as well as you, you were going to be scared. Yeah. Really? So I don't like, I'm very easily scared. And it's good to tell our listeners that because it's a really brilliant book.

And I don't like any thrillers or anything scary or anything like, oh, what's going to happen? I find that very stressful. It's not really. It doesn't like being tantalized. No. You don't like, you don't, you're not comfortable with. The thrill, I think, of a thriller. Can I tell you something?

It started and I thought, oh, God, oh, God. I was worried about it. Here we go. And then I had this. I thought someone would be sleeping with the light on. I had it. I never thought my book would produce that kind of reaction. But then I had the experience of someone who never read thrillers being like,

oh my God, what's going to happen? Yeah. And I kept saying, I can't put it down. Yes. I can't put it. And I thought, oh, this is how people feel for thrillers. I'm not a big thriller. I mean, I'm not a huge, yeah.

It's going to be my first question because. Because Sarah loves them. Oh, really. love them. So to write one, I would assume, oh, someone loves one so much. Fan of the genre. Yeah, fan of the genre. I like Patricia Highsmith. Well, of course, there's tiny,

tiny, um, fairly substantial. Oh yeah. Highsmith. Yeah, yeah. Did you just cut and paste from it? I didn't think I tried to. Because, um, what's the one? The Jude Law one. At Talented Mr. Ripley. Oh, yes. I, yeah. I guess. Yeah. There's a similar. If you were recommending this book to someone, which I will be, which we all

will be, you might say, like talented Mr. Ripley, you have this outsider wanting to get inside someone's life that just seems so brilliant and also why do they deserve these wonderful decade things yeah we should say shouldn't we a little bit more do you want to can you have you got a sentence yet of like this is what it's about i should have shouldn't i you definitely hard yeah it's difficult isn't it when people ask me that i'd always go if i could have said it in a sentence why'd i'd have bothered a year of my life right in an entire pitch you've done so many interviews yeah like sometimes you've already you've had to perfect the sentence i think um

Talented Mr. Ripley meets Bryce had visited is a succinct. With the seasoning of Woodhouse. Yeah, it is also, someone said the other day PG Woodhouse meets Coen Brothers. Oh yeah. That's a good call. Yeah. So it is like that. It's someone who kind of, who goes to university from an ordinary-ish background.

Yeah. And falls in with an aristocratic, stellar set. Yeah. And kind of become slightly, sort of to keep in with them, become slightly Jeeves-ish in his in his relationship. It makes himself very useful. Yeah, deferential, servile. And that's...

And did you go to Cambridge? Yeah, there are overlaps. Yeah. I wasn't suggesting that the character... I wasn't suggesting that the character was you, but... And what aristocrats were mean to you? Just to get in the notes. Look in the podcast notes.

So I just thought, because we went to Sussex, we went to the same university, which was not like the people who go to this university. No. Right, poor you. What a lot, poor are. But people I know, as in so people, from backgrounds more similar to mine who went to Oxford. People who had incredible educations very bright,

but found it difficult to be at a university where so many people had come from money. Weirdly, I guess I did draw on things, but weirdly I think I was reading Woodhouse and thinking, does Jeeves never just get furious? That was kind of my way, and it was about that kind of... Wonderful, yes. And it was also like...

And your character does question that, that's sort of the anger of Jeeves. And he's obsessed with reading... When he's upset, he goes back to Woodhouse. It's a calming. Yeah. Weirdly, it's a calming. Because Woodhouse is sort of apolitical.

Yeah. And it's very sort of simple and silly. You kind of, it's Disney film as you know it's going to be okay. Exactly. Like it soothes the soul. Yeah, and those political discomfort doesn't really encroach on it. And that's quite comforting. But I was, but I guess I had come into contact with it.

And I was also tutoring a lot. When I read Woodhouse, I was tutoring really, really rich children in Mayfair. And that was getting me quite angry. So I think there was. some of that. As a character in the book. But there are lots of those things like. Doing jobs outside of,

you know, acting or comedy, which you have to do quite often for money. The ego really struggles with it. Really does. Yeah. Because you're being paid to do that job.

So you are that job while you're there. Yeah, there's no such thing as a means to an end when you're doing a job. You're the teacher. You're the tutor. And it's really hard for the ego. And they did treat me like a butler.

They would be like, you're tutoring at the moment, but could you hang up this? can you hang this painting afterwards and my personality was very much like but of course and would you need me for the evening so that was feed

but also there's also a thing about reading Woodhouse now where you're like all those country house novels where you're like there's something kind of icky about reading Woodhouse now I think I because you know where's the where's the money come from for that country house yeah we're living at a point where I feel similar even I love Jane Austen

there's sometimes you hit this wall of like but what where are these houses is who built them. Like you can't ignore that now. We're living in a world where you're too aware of it. Well, that's what's lovely about your book is that, I mean, because there's such a underbelly to it. So, you know, you meet a rich family in this lovely sort of decadent house

and then someone does go on Wikipedia to find out where the family can get their money from. So there's no like wondering. Yeah, yeah. You tell us, oh, it's from sugar. Yeah, yeah, it's bad. Yeah, that doesn't look so good, he says. Yeah, yeah. So I was thinking about that.

I mean, I think I was finishing it when Boris Johnson was on TV a lot during COVID, and the Colston, Edward Colston statue was chucked into it. And there definitely was a sort of Boris is basically Jeeves. And that's how he kind of gets away with it. He sort of goes, well, dum-de-dum. And that's kind of his get-out clause. I met a young person yesterday. Congratulations.

Thank you. Were they aware they met you? Well, they had grown up in Uxbridge when Boris Johnson was their MP. and he'd come into their school several times. So a young person talking about their response to Boris Johnson, which is obviously he's hilarious, like this buffoon, this clown, this sillyness. They felt really, I guess, akin to him with his messy hair. Like Mr. Tumble?

And then the shock to become an adult and went, who elected him? Oh, God. Yeah. It is shocking. It is shocking. Oh, it's still shocking. But I think it's interesting because there is a sort of, there is a kind of dynamic where we enable those.

sort of bumbling aristocrats. And it is sort of because of there is a, you know, there is a jeevishness to them and we, there is a complicated distrust, repulsion, but also awe and adoration. It's very familiar.

Yeah. The pecking order, the hierarchy, the rules of the establishment. Yeah. So, so deep. So what we're saying about the comfort of sort of Jeeves and Woodhouse to the reader is instilled in all of us. There is upstairs and there is downstairs. and you know where you are.

My sister-in-law is Japanese. And she just put it so bluntly, she was like, but English people, as soon as they meet another English person, they're trying to work out, am I better or worse than them? And then they feel better.

And I thought, well, you put it like that. Yes, it's awful. Yeah, it does sound bad. Yeah, she was like, Japanese people. The main thing is to be like, I want you to feel that I have been respectful to you before I know who you are.

But she was like, English, it's like, well, before I'm polite to you. Who are you? Do I need to bother? And I thought, yeah,

that's bad, isn't it? She'd skewered us good there. So the beginning of the book. Yeah, we've jumped around. We haven't even told anybody what the book is. Because I don't have to do any spoilers. Well, which is about Edward.

That's not a spoiler. Okay. Who, as we said, not from posh background, with these aristocratic. And they've left university. Best friends from university. Best friend. They've left. They're living in London and everyone, its careers are taking off as you'd expect for aristocratic people.

And Edward is trying to fit in with two particular best friends. Yes. A boy and a girl. A boy and a girl. I don't think it's a spoiler to say he's very fond of the girl. No. No, no, no. Yeah.

You could do a clax and there's a spoiler. He's very fond of the girl. But the very early scenes, the establishing scenes, are in the bar of the Almeda theatre. Oh, God, yes. That was very triggering. It was really, really, really fantastic because it made me so uncomfortable.

Great. And you describe so brilliantly what happens in lots of places where there's a cluster of creative people where someone seems to have their eyes on you and simultaneously elsewhere. Yeah, yeah. And I liked Edward's description as a, well of how drawn he is to someone, you know, there's the richest person in the room and then

the most rich and famous person in the room or the most talented and how it's like a, you know, moths to the flame. People are just and I thought, the body language of everyone in the space is facing towards them. It was quite nice to have someone be honest about it because it made you go, yes, quite human reaction, isn't it? It's not like, oh, it's like fuck sake. It's like in the Pleasant Spa in Edinburgh, which is probably where I have had that sensation. most so many of the conversations are about how shit it is because everyone's just looking over your shoulder to see who else oh my god Greg Davies is coming yeah but it is excited when it was good when Greg so people everyone's just talking about it but still doing it like you can't observe it and can't rise above it

that's why I sort of sometimes I it does the book kind of has those like you say those political bits in them but really it's about it's kind of a book about that feeling. Yeah. And that kind of social anxiety and this the sense everyone has, and like you say, it doesn't have to be class. It can, it can be fame or power of any sort of just sort of slightly people-pleasing agreeing with that, with almost anything, they say just by default and then leaving thinking, God, I don't know what I've done there. When I was reading it, Jenny, because I was thinking, how does Johnny know? Because you're always, you're so popular and successful. I'm a great guy. I had the same thought. Did you? I was like,

But Johnny doesn't know about us dweebs on the house. No, I'm not as bad as you two. Let's not, let's not, let's be honest. No, I think. I was like, he's so, he's someone who everybody wants, he's the person comes in, everyone's like, oh, John Sweets here, I'm going to talk to. One newcomer in Edinburgh. Literally, first year.

One in Edinburgh, tick. What's next? Hollywood. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yes. How do you know what it's like to be a dweeb? I agree with all this.

No, I don't know what it's like to be a dweeb. I know what it's like to be socially anxious. Oh, okay. But I'm hip. You're a hip. Social actors. No, I think, I love that you say that. I think everyone thinks that about everyone.

Even the cool guys. Even people like me who there's a ripple in the room. And people are kind of nudging but trying not to nudge visibly. It's really hidden. I think it may be something, and that's why I love comedians so much. Exactly. If comedians are people that if they weren't as anxious or insecure, they'd probably enjoy their lives a lot better.

They wouldn't need to make jokes all the time. They wouldn't be. watching other people to be ready to like make fun of themselves and everybody else. It's being uncomfortable that makes you want to make a joke in the first place. Totally. Yeah. No, and also like it is a bit about comedy this book. For me, it was a bit about sort of when I did comedy, it was very silly and there was no politics in it.

And that was kind of my little ideology that I had. It's just like, just make it silly. And that's what Woodhouse is like as well. But in a weird way, it's hard to tell a story without that stuff. becoming quite meaningful. Yeah. And also, I guess as you get older, you just think about those things and they creep in. And I often think about Woodhouse tried to avoid politics his entire life.

Wow. But he did accidentally, in a very sort of Woodhousey, maybe in a kind of Edward Jevensey way, accidentally do a broadcast on behalf of the Nazis. Basically out of sort of politeness in sort of the late 30s, he was like, I don't really want to, but I mean, they've asked me. It was, it was kind of that. And then everyone in England went absolutely. They were like, don't do it for the Nazis.

That's really bad. But he was like, honestly, if you'd be in there, you probably would have said yes as well. And then so he moved to the States. What to escape that? Yeah. Oh my God. That's the most social anxious you can be.

I'm just going to leave this country. Yes, exactly. No, that wasn't that bad. It was goodbye. No, I did something for the Nazis. Oh, you should pack your bags. Let me help you. And then in his 80s, I mean, so that's why Woodhouse in a way is, it is nostalgia.

Yeah. And I think a lot of the kind of, I mean, I think, you know, Downton, it's this sort of nostalgia for something that was really a very sort of subjugating fantasy, but also wasn't really like that entirely. No. And so you can't escape, you can't escape the political element, but it is also just about how those power structures make us act in a conversation. I love the genre of crime and a thriller,

and I have never read anything that realistically talks about how someone might feel. And this isn't a spoiler because I'm not going to say who, and who, but actually committing a murder. Yeah, it would feel bad, isn't it? Getting rid of the body. That's one of my terrors is accidentally losing control. Yeah, I can see that in you. That's where she reads all the thrillers.

Yeah, yeah. I guess so. So you can plan. I was so with the character while it was happening. It's such a good read. It really is. And again, for someone who doesn't lean towards thrillers at all, I think it's a sweet spot between people who like Woodhouse and Austin.

Because it's so funny, you can read it if you love comedy. But also it's not folk, like, the reason I don't love thrillers is because it's like the spotlight isn't tied on. How does it feel to kill someone? Whereas this is like character, story, all this other stuff. Plus, God, oh, God. But they never examine it properly how it would feel. Yeah. They try to show you, usually what they do is say it's a person who's different from you who does this.

This felt like it was someone who is exactly like me. Yes, which is why it was so horrible. Horrible. Yeah. That's great. It's so nice. You're so kind. I haven't really taught, apart from my dad, you know, haven't really taught him about it.

That's good. That's really nice. Because I sort of think that that's almost the joke of it as well. It's like, because going back to being funny, it's almost the joke of it that imagine if we were just so people-pleasy, us three, that we did sort of go, I'm going to just, I really don't want to, but trying to make that feel emotionally. The Nazis have asked you to do what? I know, I know.

But they know I'm free on Monday. I couldn't get out of it. I love reading people's acknowledgement's at the back. Of course, because I've got an ego, I do always think, even people that have been long dead since I was born. Just in case, just in case. But I loved, so you did have people who had first readers. I always, I'm impressed when you've had.

You had six first readers. And look at this list. Yeah, I thought exactly the same thing. Did you? That's a bloody good list for first readers. And it's funny because you've got some people like Hugh Skinner there. And Emerald Fennell. Yes, and Emerald Fennell.

But I was thinking about W1A and that character that you played. Because that kind of tone of speech, this sort of style that I sort of thought that John, the writer had invented, which is when you're agreeing, but you say no a lot in the agreement. Oh, that's how posh people talk. Yeah, of course, yeah, absolutely.

And they're sort of shaking their head while agreeing to do something. Well, I think it's what I do when I'm people pleasing. I always sort of nod along at almost anything. I mean, almost anything. and there's a bit in the book which happened in real life. God, that must be so hard though. I'm actually much better it now because my wife, it was just very strict with me and just saying, it's weird that you're saying yes, when you mean.

No, that is true actually. Because it's opposite. It's the opposite of what I'm trying to say. But there's a bit in the book which happened in real life where I went to a friend's house and they had a kind of fancy dinner with waiters. And it was fancy. And I was quite, it was quite sort of, I found it quite nerve-wracking. And anyway, the dad

just assumed I was a waiter. Oh, no. And it just sort of went, yeah, just get on just get on with it, get at the pace. And he was really nice, it wasn't like treating the staff badly. No, but it was just fakely, your role. I was like, absolutely. Ok, do you, I was sort of

processing, but also putting place down. If they didn't, if they didn't have waiters and you turned up at someone's house and they said, oh, could you pop that in the fridge for me? Of course you would because they're the host, you're the host, you're the guest. You know, but it's the staff element. If you're socially anxious. It's like, why am I emitting staff? Yeah, no, because you're socially anxious.

And what you're always looking for is a job. Give me a job. And that's why at dinner parties, I am the tidier because I'm like, something to do, something to do. And so I think you probably looked like, God, tell me what to do. And he was like, oh, tidy up when you were like, okay. Because now I've got a thing to do rather than like, you're, there's a waiter. I have to stand here while someone gets me a drink.

This is so weird. Waiting was easier than the conversation. Yeah, and you have to think what to say to someone. You have to panic. And someone said, you're a comedian at that dinner. I'm actually having like PTSD. Oh, yeah. And I was like, yes, I'm a comedian.

And she said, that's so interesting because you're not, you know, you're not funny, are you? And I was like, no, no, no, not massively. Oh, God. That's so unfair because you are funny but not around people who are scary and making you anxious. Nish used to have this amazing bit about how it's only with comedy, whether or like, or do some or you're not funny. It's like, never said to a builder. I've not seen you build anything. I know.

You've been sitting for hours. Where's the wall? Where's the numbers? Here's my tax. I know, it's outrageous. They don't even have your tools with you. I know. Our main character,

Edward does lots of things that make you feel very uncomfortable, like being mistaken for a waiter and being with these horrible, posh people who are mean to him. But at the same time, I did feel like I could see myself going, I'll get your dry cleaning. Yeah. The subtlety of the meanness. Yeah, no worries, mate.

And the way the men spoke to each other. All right, mate, oh, of course, no. Like this weird, like not addressing anything. But we're finding out about it through Edward's version of it. So we're getting what's spoken and what he's assuming. Yeah. And sometimes that very clever thing where we're seeing what he reads from Robert's eyes. It reminds me a peep show as well actually.

You know, like Mark's character and peep show sometimes when it's like something is said to him and he's like, and that'll be nice, it'll be awful. And you're like that, oh, why have you said yes to this thing that's going to break your heart? Yeah, and I think you are so in his head that my kind of hope was that, you know, you kind of, hopefully the book allows you to think that these other characters are, essentially sort of evil and deserve what's coming from. No, we should talk about that. Because really, no, I think he's the mad evil.

And that's how I feel about that, you know, when we're talking about our relationship to class and, you know, why Downton Abbey was at its peak during austerity and all these things is actually we're the kind of mad ones. And Edward really is the madder. But because he's letting them, their only real crime is allowing him to, be deferential. Yes, and they do sort of

apologize while then re-enforcing his role. It's like, I'm really sorry, I should be getting you to do this. But also, could you get the table decorations for... I think it's the lack of empathy. Like, with, so he's two best friends, Robert and Stanza, who feature hugely in Edward's story. A short fucking Stanza. Yes. You know what? I actually met Costanza and I thought, that's fantastic.

And I haven't sort of seen her since I've put her in the book. For ages, I was like, wow, is it like a literary family? It feels literary, doesn't it? And yes, then Costanza was like, oh yeah, that makes more sense. But only a little bit more sense. Only a little bit more sense. Yeah, slightly. It's also stanza means room, and I kind of like the idea.

Oh, nice. Oh, that's a little Easter egg. There were several words in here. I've never, I don't know what they mean. And they had to do that thing where you look up and I was like Cambridge. Did you do English at Cambridge? I did, yeah. English at Cambridge.

I did do Italian. but I was asked to leave the course because I had not, I think she wrote a report where she said, you have failed to learn a single word of Italian after like eight weeks. I was like, yeah, that does sound bad. Well, I will stop. So sorry to bother you. In our first term, they were like where you've got to read,

it was fresh as week. And they were like, well, by the end of this week, you've got to read Canterbury Tales. What? I was like, well, that's, A, it's absolute gobbily gook. Yeah, and it's huge. Not even one Canterby Tale, the whole thing. Tales.

Oh, God. And then Pierce Plowrammel. which is in sort of, it's in like Viking runes. I was like, I cannot read this. And I did, I wrote the essay without reading it, but then I did read it before the kind of, you know, seminar, yeah, yeah. And he asked me some questions about it

because it was so baffling to me, he assumed I hadn't actually read it and threw me out and said I had no right to be at Cambridge. I was like, well, the thing is I have read it, but it is you've got to admit it's Goldie Creek. Even, even you. That's really hard when you're like, no, I actually have done the work,

and I still didn't understand it. Yeah, yeah. Can I tell you a joke I really love in your book? And I loved it so much like I sort of sat down. My baby was sleeping, so I was reading on the stairs. And I sort of closed the book to just enjoy it. Even though I didn't even quite understand it, I had to sort of work it out by myself.

It was a joke where Edward's character comes back into the room. And I think they're at Terry's house, Stans's Dad's, and everyone's sort of having their first drinks. And Edward says, I'm paraphrasing. But something like, oh, brilliant. Like you've opened the Bolly. And everybody laughed because it was, is it Krug? It was Krug, yeah.

And so I was to have Bolly. It's not Bollywood. Oh, it's Bollinger. I went it out. And then I was like, I've never heard of Kroog. But I was like, ha ha ha, that's such a funny joke. Oh, good. Oh, good.

That's hilarious. I love that joke as well because it really... So is Kruea really nice champagne? I believe so. I mean, I have no idea. Yeah, I think it's posher than Bolly. I know Bolly because of absolutely fabulous. Yeah, that's why I think Bollies now.

And because I judged a competition, oh, the comedy novel competition, about seven years ago. And it wasn't paid, but you got six bottles of Bollinger. but they found out I was a vegan and wouldn't give it to me. Wow. It's like strains through fish or something. And I'm not that vegan, come on. You can't give me it away. You can't give me it away.

I thought I tasted. That's why everyone drinks cream. Can I ask you, how do you read so? I mean, reading with children, this is a, again, this is cuttable. It's a nightmare. But it's very, you must have to read a lot for this. We do. It's very stressful.

We messaged each other about trying to get through what we're doing. I should tell you what I got with my Christmas voucher from my husband from Waterstones is I got one of those clip-on lights. Yeah, they are good. So my baby doesn't sleep for very long, so I can't do anything anyway. Yes. So in his sort of 45-minute rest, so I sit next to him with a little light on and do my reading. That's good.

I did most of my reading recently when my youngest didn't sleep. Yeah. Okay, that's reassuring. Because there's no point going to sleep because they're going to wake you up again and then you feel mad. Yeah, yeah, and you can't sleep anyway, even if they do sleep. I got a Kindle. That's how I got through it. Sometimes bedtimes involve me sitting by a bed for 45 minutes.

You're not reading this to your tour. Oh, yeah, they loved it with my son's little face. What you're doing? What the book's saying? And I'll be like, oh, it's, I really can't tell you what this book is saying right now. It will upset you. It will upset you. Have you read the audio book of this? Oh, yeah.

Did you read it? No, I didn't read it. I did, however, sort of semi-audition for it. And they said, no, thank you. They have got someone fantastic. for Jack Davenport. He's actually, and he was actually in the town of Mr. Ripley. Yeah.

Oh, yes. He is extremely good. He's a great choice. Good, good. I think his voice is going to be delightful. Not that you would also have been lovely. Well, I can only do, and I used to find this in auditions as an actor, and they'd say, could you do, that's great, could you do it in a slightly different accent?

And I'd say, no, I can't. And they'd be like, well, it's lovely to see you and have a good journey home. And that was sort of it with this as well. If there are other characters, they'd also sound like that. Yeah. Oh, I did have to read my audiobook. And the same thing, accents, I can't do them. So I would occasionally have to sort of, I would sort of say,

how will they know their characters? Irish. Can I just add an extra line in? Because the Irish character sounds like she's from Essex, let's do all the characters. That's the problem. That's sad because I can do accents, but there were none in my nonfiction book. Oh, just put some patois in there. I could have read a chapter in.

I want to audition for a, very gritty period Irish film and I did a lot of voice work sort of in the day before and the woman holding the audition was corpseing all the way through my audition and I started corpseing no it was a beautiful moment it was like this is such a sweet moment and I was really like that was almost kind of romantic and then I went home thinking you know that was awful for my career I once had to audition for something and the character had to play the ukulele and they had suggested a song which was too hard for me to learn so quickly So I'd played them a different song

And I did even know how bad it was Until the casting director ran out of the room to give me a hug I thought it had gone fine That's bad, bad I thought it had gone fine And she ran out, she went Oh God, darling, darling Poor you

That's really bad And that's when I realised it had been shit Another thing I liked from the acknowledgement We're only talking about acknowledgement I'm so happy to dig into the issue It's because I don't want to go too much into plot I wanted to do broad things. The stuff in my head was, yes, class, university, which we've covered.

I wanted to talk about love or not of thrillers. Sophie, who's your wife? That's not a spoiler. She was the one who made you write the book. Oh, yeah, I thought that was a nice way. Yeah, she did. That's lovely. I want to know how.

No, it was really good, actually. She just, because I wanted to write a book for ages, and she just got really bored of me saying that. And she said, she just looked to me with such kind of, such a shaming look of disgust and said, just write it then. And I was like, yeah, but what about, you know, it'll take ages and it'll be unpaid work.

And she said, it's fine. And it was really irresponsible financially. I mean, it was, in some ways, a terrible decision to just take that gamble. But it was so, it was, I just needed someone to say to do it. I really love that story. And I tell you for why, because lots of people listening might want to write a book one day.

And they were waiting for validation. They're waiting for someone to say, your idea is so fantastic. You are so talented. The world needs to hear from you. And it's not. It's just a wife's derision. It's all it takes. Yeah, just go on then.

And she was also encouraging. Yeah, I should say, I'm being a bit silly. But she was also like, yeah, you should. And I think it's right that you should, yeah, you should write it anyway. Yeah. And I was happy just to have written it before it getting published. So did you write all of it and then take it to publishers? Oh, that's exciting.

That's what Richard does. did as well. That's very clever. That's very clever. Well, yeah. It's audacious is what it is. Andrew Hunter-Morrow did that, write the whole thing and then took it. I think it's hard not to do that.

I think it would have been hard for me to sell a book, actually, unless it had been finished. But also, it was hard for me to write a book without finishing it. Because in a weird way, you know, I wrote it on the sort of second and third goes through and knowing what the ending was and things like that help me to write it. If you do the opposite where you pitch and then write it, your editor gets feedback the whole way through, which is very difficult if you do have a very clear idea of what you want to write. Yeah, I think that's the other...

You're going, no, no, no, no, no. You're coming in in a much feedback. Like a stronger position of control, because you've gone through all the mistakes and you've gone through all the... It could be this, it could be this. So when then someone goes, oh, what about this? You can be like, no, no, I tried that. I tried to write that bit.

It didn't work like that. True, because I'm writing the second one now, and I have had to sort of describe that. Is it the same character? It's not a sequel, no. No, I would quite like to write as he will actually. You can revisit him in a decade or so. Yeah, yeah.

When are you sort of in Parliament or something? Hold on, get a back, get it. And the funny thing about describing a book is you do go into pitch mode. So I was sort of going, oh, a lot of my discussion was, well, A, it's fantastic. And it doesn't really help you, but you're just, you feel like you have to convince someone. But actually, when you're writing, you just have to write it and sort of work it out in that fairly pain. So you wrote it, was it during the lockdowns? That's when it...

No, I started before. the lockdown, but the lockdown was very useful, I think. I think I kind of underestimated how useful it was being unable to sort of see anyone or do anything. And I had a sitcom cancelled because of lockdown, so I had more time. It was all quite good, actually. And I think I had more anger rippling around for Boris and whatnot. There's something very claustrophobic about a character who can't get out of his situation.

you desperately want him to. I wonder if that's the transference from lockdown. Because whether you were actually in your home or whether you were working, the entire country, the entire world had that bubbling frustration. I don't get to make my decisions anymore. I thought I was in charge of my life and I'm not. The world isn't fair.

Yes. Yeah. And more powerful people will dictate what you do. Absolutely. And we go, okay, then I won't do that thing. I'll wash my hands. Goodbye. Thanks, thanks so much.

Thanks so much. Where are you going? It looks like a party. what's happening? Oh, don't worry about it, okay. Okay, where do you want your dry cleaning? Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, in lockdown, I think we would have been less, I think, well, I don't know how it played out, but if someone has said Boris is getting lashed behind the scenes, I think a lot of us would have been like, well, yeah, I would have thought he would be. It was the covering up. I do think that it was the covering up, that made people go, we fucking knew you were, but you don't lie, don't like try and hide it, you bastards. Or don't make the rules then. If you know everyone wants to get pissed, make that part of the rules.

I would be up for someone, almost up for someone saying, look, you guys cannot do this. We are running the country and it's really stressful. So once every fall night, we're getting lashed, just let it go. Or maybe just like an optional thing. Okay, fine. If you want to meet up and get pissed at your friend's gardens, take up smoking again, fine. But you can't use the NHS.

And I'll just go, yeah, all right, fine. They would have to apply to them as well. Exactly. If they would have to not lose your NHS. And they'd go, yeah, this is terrible. And they'd go, we don't anyway. We're all on private health care. So we've gone, oh, that makes a lot sense.

thank you for being honest about it. There are so many moments in this book where you are screaming at Edward. There are so many moments where you're like, don't do that. Why are you doing that? But he's screaming at himself. That's what I love about it. So, I mean, usually you get a first person narrator and you're sort of in their head,

but it's so surface. I feel like this was so much deeper than that. And that's the true tragedy of really seeing he doesn't want to do this. He knows at the same time. That's why I think thriller is like not quite, because it is a true. tragedy. It's where the money is carried, right?

It's a thrill. I'm sorry, it's a thrill. It's a thrill. It's the new Richard Osmond, remember. That, like, Shakespearean element. It's the new Harry Potter. No, we must never. It's going to sell in a school.

Yeah. But it had that Shakespearean element of, like, watching this main character do things which you know are going to end awfully. Because, again, no spoilers, because of the way the book started. Yeah. And because it's called, oh, and actually,

He said, is it, this is like the Da Vinci Code, the Kellaby Code. It's actually like the Code of the Worcester's. Were you inspired by the Da Vinci Code? It's actually a transcription. It's amazing you didn't spot this. Well, some people would be like, oh, Dan Brown's got a new one. That would be a real disappointment if they're expecting Dan. Sales-wise it would.

No, it's great. Get off the shelf. Oh, I see it's a Jesus of Worcester because I thought it was a Da Vinci Code thing and kept waiting for him to find. Some ancient monk. Yes, a chalist. So right at the beginning, you know, Edward, Edward, find something in the soil.

I thought, oh, here's the chalice. That's amazing. Off he goes. Why is he not mentioned a challenge? It's scud. I really thought this was going to be a book about a downtrodden friend who's going to come out on top and get everything that he deserves. That's why I enjoyed it. Literary thriller is a genre.

Yeah, I guess it is true. History is a sort of thriller where... Carriette hasn't read the secret history. You would love it. When we started his podcast, I was re-reading it. And it was one of the ones where I said, this will be so fun to talk about. Yeah, but imagine the fucking pile at the side of the bed. Okay, it got so big.

So one pile to be read, I started another one of like actual podcast coming up, have to read, ignore this. That got bigger than the other one. And I went to bed one night and looked at them and I was like, they're going to fall over and kill me. That's what's going to happen. So I've had to put all of them on the floor because it was so death by book. And see what history is on there.

It's like someone going, oh, I've got so much money. I've got so much money in the bank. I had to have more money. I had to have to hide that for myself because I'm not. I get so stressed. I never got to spend all my money. It's books. They last forever.

I know, but secret history. Secret history is on their pile. That's what I mean. And it's had to go right down to the bottom. Do you find it hard with Kindles that you don't know how long? Because I find I read the information, which is quite long. When Martin Amos died, I read. That was one of his books.

And it's just much longer than I sort of hope a book will ever be. And I did enjoy it, but it just took ages. and now I'm reading the name of the rose. Oh, wow. It's feeling big. Yeah, it's very big, yeah. Oh, but you mean like on a Kindle? You don't know.

Yeah. And it's all just wading through the dark, you know what's in the dark. Well, I often, as we've discussed, if it's a big book, I go Kindle. So like mirror in the light, Kindle. But Martin Amis is another person that I've mentioned

that I'd love to us to talk about on the podcast. She's swerving. I don't like him. Yeah, no, that's very common, but I think it'll be interesting. It'd be worth talking about it. Because you know who made me read him. Dolly Alderton.

A woman. I think we'd have an interesting discussion. We would, but then I don't want to get a shouty like I did with Nick Colby. I don't think he will be. I don't think he will be. He was really used to being shouted at. Oh, no, and that annoys me as well. And I think Mars Nemis is worth talking about.

He is shoutable at me. I'm not saying he's not worth talking about. You're not saying he's not a literary figure. I'm just saying I can't be asked. There's a trade-off. I think how much you're going to think you're going to find things annoying will be balanced by a very, and also he's really in control of what he's saying and you'll appreciate. I have no doubt that he's amazing,

but when your TBR pile is so big you think it's going to kill you, trying to put someone on there that you're like... Einstein's Monsters, his book of short stories. Yeah, we could do that. Because they're less, I think you'd find them less shoutable at as well. Okay, great, let's do that. And I'll come, look, I'll come back. Hang on, man.

I'm going to date. I'm going to host. We lost the podcast. I guess it was a very upsetting situation. No, it was classic. A white privileged man from Cambridge came. And he knew just so many more words. And even though we discussed Marxism, it didn't make any difference.

People wanted to hear him over us. Do you know what really helped my to read, Paul, when we interviewed Sam Sangera, because he, in his book, talks a little bit sort of negatively about Nile Ferguson, and I've got sort of six. And I just gave them onto the charity shop. That's good. That show was amazing, and I love him. Oh, yeah, he's amazing.

He's amazing. Yeah. It's really helpful and really clever people, write books. and then you understand things a little bit better. They make it so enjoyable to be cleverer. Keep doing it. Johnny, it's excellent. We really enjoyed it.

Is there anything you hoped we'd ask that we haven't? I just would have been sad if we hadn't gone through the acknowledgement. It's good that they've been given fairly weighty. Well, when you get to actually talk to the person who wrote the book because most of the time, you don't. You don't. And it's true, we don't want to do spoilers because I really enjoyed not knowing what was going to happen. It's hard.

It's the hard to talk about the book with the spoilers. I found that difficult. Is Emerald Fennell going to do a film of it? She sort of already has done. That's the funny thing with Saltburn. I haven't seen Salt Burn. Oh, are you suggesting she did her first read and then she made Salt Burn? I don't know.

What was really funny was, the reason she did read it is because we met up and she was casting Salt Burn. And I said, what's the film about? And she described it and I went, well, I'm going to have to have to say, my book's quite similar. So we exchanged. I read the script and she read the book after they were both finished. Oh, wow. That's so fantastic, isn't it? Yeah.

So it was... That's the kind of thing that will be in a biography one day. Yeah. Probably hers. It'll be a lovely. Like, oh, Virginia Woolf, Virginia Woolf, new so-and-so. Johnny Sweet.

Yeah, not so-and-so. Sir. Sir. MP, sweet. He writes an Italian these days, actually. He's just only Italian. Yeah, it's not great Italian, but it's nice to read them. We must talk very quickly about your film.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Wicked little letters. Yeah. It's a bit of an overachie. aren't you? Yeah, I triumphed almost every day. I just waft around, high-fiving myself.

That's already out. So if you've seen it and liked it, you'll like the book. It's so different from the book in style, actually. Oh, okay. I mean, the film is so silly. The book is silly as well, but the book, like you say, is more emotionally aware. I've only seen the advert for your film, but I would say what would be similar is, very adult world, like the real world and real things going on, but with incredible jokes.

That's fantastic. and that's a wrap and as I say you won't be coming back for the next one I'll be hosting that but I think after now you've done a great job

I really do we normally end on the last line and I think we should yeah yeah yeah here we go brilliant it's good so most of all

I'd like to thank Sophie for making me write it and for everything that's from the acknowledgements and it really was a wonderful sentence yeah I'm actually genuinely very pleased we end of it

that's good thank you for listening to the Weirdo's Book Club next week's book guest is a man's play by Annie Arnault. Sarah's novel Weirdo and Carrie Ed's book, You Are Not Alone, are both available now. I've got some weirdo book events if you want to check out my website, sarah pasco.coe.com.uk. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you.