Sara & Cariad's Weirdos Book Club - The List by Yomi Adegoke with Yomi Adegoke

Episode Date: April 25, 2024

This week's book guest is The List by Yomi Adegoke.Sara and Cariad are joined by journalist and instant Sunday Times bestselling author Yomi Adegoke to discuss social media, relationship goals, bad men, catcalling and gossip. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you!Trigger warning: In this episode we discuss sexual assault and mention paedophilia.The List by Yomi Adegoke is available to buy here or on Apple Books here.You can find Yomi on Instagram: @yomi.adegoke and Twitter: @yomiadegokeSara’s debut novel Weirdo is published by Faber & Faber and is available to buy here.Cariad’s book You Are Not Alone is published by Bloomsbury and is available to buy here.Follow Sara & Cariad’s Weirdos Book Club on Instagram @saraandcariadsweirdosbookclub and Twitter @weirdosbookclub Recorded and edited by Naomi Parnell for Plosive.Artwork by Welcome Studio.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Sarah Pasco. Hello, I'm Carriad Lloyd. And we're weird about books. We love to read. We read too much. We talk too much. About the too much that we've read. Which is why we've created the Weirdo's Book Club.

Join us. A space for the lonely outsider to feel accepted and appreciated. A place for the person who'd love to be in a real book club, but doesn't like wine or nibbles. Or being around other people. Is that you? Join us. Check out our Instagram at Sarah and Carriad's Weirdo's Book Club for the upcoming books we're going to be discussing. You can read along and share your opinions.

Or just skulk around in your raincoat like the weirdo you are. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you. This week's book guest is The List by Yomi Adagocke. What's it about? The list follows online super couple Ola and Michael after he's included on a list of male abusers. But did he do anything?

Can Ola trust him again? And will their massive Insta marriage take place? What qualifies it for the Weirdo's Book Club? Well, Olla's first reaction to her boyfriend's public show, Saming is to hire a private detective and try wedding dresses on. That's our kind of gal. In this episode, we discuss social media, relationship goals, bad men, cat calling and gossip. And joining us this week is the author, Yomi Adagocke.

Yomi is a journalist and author. She's stormed onto the publishing scene with her debut nonfiction, Slay in Your Lane, co-written with Elizabeth Uv Binan. She's also written for pre-teens with the offline diaries and her debut novel, The List, was an instant Sunday Times bestseller and is soon to be adapted by HBO. The list by Yomi Adakoke is available in paperback from today. Trigger warning, in this episode, we do discuss sexual assault and paedophilia. Hello, welcome to the podcast.

It's so exciting to have you here. Thanks so exciting. I'm very exciting. Thank you so much for being here. There aren't many celebrities in literature, not books as fault, but I feel like that's you're bringing glam, you're bringing sort of like celebratory brunches. Oh my God. If I could blush, I would honestly be able to be there.

I'd be radioactive, right. book was so successful that the water stones, I think it was in Croydon. They decorated the whole of the outside. I definitely asked to do that. I definitely was like, you know what? We were going to put it in the window somewhere. And I feel like, I don't know, like,

part of my whole thing is trying to rehabilitate Croydon's image in Grandly. So I literally would like put in a request. Like, can we do it in the Cudin Waterstones? And they were very happy to oblige. And yeah, that was, that was iconic. Like, my parents were very happy. Yeah, of course. There's a lovely picture on Instagram.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, and my dad. Oh my God, my dad with his, like, hand on his hip really sassily. You know, we don't have many, like, celebrities coming out of Coyden, but the ones that we have a proper, like, good, it's like Kate also fucking Stormsy.

Oh, yeah. And you? Really high-pal-a-calleled. Oh, goodness, girls, thank you. It's been such a whirlwind, this book has had such incredible, like, as it was instant Sunday Times bestseller. Can I ask a question? Yeah.

Because it's about the bit before, because readers will know. Oh, yes. Oh, you know, the shops are all selling it. It's in the charts. Right. But did you, for months and months. beforehand sort of see the wheels turning, like you might have known, like, oh, the reviews are really good or people are really keen to get their hands on the coffee. Because it was buzz about it.

Yeah. Buzz. That's a good word, man. It was, do you know what it was? It was that, so when I sold the book, I sold on a partial. So I had written, like, a partial manuscript, right? Oh, I see. So I sold like, I've written 30,000 words. Thank you. Lovely. I literally losing the grip of it. So you only written 30,000 and you had that. I'd only written 30, exactly. But that said enough of a challenge. 11. 11 way.

That's enough of a chunk to say, this is what the book is, this is how good a writer I am. Right? You'd think so. Because I did then write out like, this is what's going to happen chapter by chapter.

That being said, I did literally for the next year and a half think, oh my God, what if it was just a massive fluke? So you did doubt yourself, even though this huge early success. I think because of that, I think because with like,

so my first ever book that I wrote was with my best friend. Slay in your lane. Slay in your lane. Another huge publication. Thank you so much. But see, we never.

really expected that because like it was literally we were in our early 20s and we'd never written a book before so we just kind of like how old were you when that came out god god when it came out it was like mid 20 so maybe like 26 but when we had the idea uh we were like i think elizabeth was like 23 and i was 24 wow um so we were really young and i even kind of like if no one buys this it doesn't matter it's just about getting it getting out there but like we felt zero pressure. Like I was like, you know, embarrassingly optimistic. She's like, this is going to be the biggest thing in the world ever seen. Whereas like with the list, it was like, because I hadn't written all of it, I just kept thinking like, what if these nine chapters? I mean, it was

lockdown. I was going through horrendous breakdown. Breakdown. Yes, that and break up. And I kind of was like, oh, you know, what if that, you know, alchemy of what was going on there is why I could write those nine chapters. Now I'm actually fine and happy and whatever and it's not locked down. You do want to be recreating those scenarios. it. And also like, you know, I'm not going to like, they gave me like a lot of money. And like there was a TV deal before I'd finished it. And it just, that's a lot of pressure. That's a lot of pressure. I went to the next. And then I remember HBO literally, I said to God, I went to the meeting. They went, this is amazing. This is my bad American accent.

And they're like, this is really great. So how does it end? And I was like, what? I just felt like, oh my God, the idea of people buying into this before it's finished. And then it's being a big flop as well. And this is what we should say. I'm sure lots of people listening have already. I already read the list. But at the beginning, such a grey area, we know that, which is a central male character, has been publicly accused of being not a great guy.

So, yeah, a list has come out on Twitter of male, sexual abusers, harassers, all sorts of things. And he is on the list, along with various other celebrities, footballers, TV presenters. And the whole book is exploring whether it's right that we have an online callout culture, what we do if we don't have an online callout culture, how we fact check and verify, how we believe women.

and if it's one of the people the man is someone in our life that we care about. How does it feel to be? If they're bidding on chapter 9 they didn't know at that point like I know that it continues being a grey area and it's not another 20 chapters he's a paedophile

and she's going to marry him anyway. Exactly. Coming soon to HBO. That's the thing. That's exactly it. Oh my God. There was so much confidence in so little which normally is like great

but it's like I am a woman. And then simultaneously it's like oh my god imposter syndrome like am I sure? Like, are they sure? And I think, yeah, it was like, on the one hand, I was really excited that, you know, especially like as a black female author that like, you know, there was that much buy into something that was really controversial as well. But then on the other hand, I was like, oh my God, imagine if this flopped. Like it's, again, like not to be all dramatic, but I was like, it's not just me flopping. It's kind of them being like, well, this is why

you should never give black women money to write about things that aren't like, you know, this is the problem with feeling like you have to rep, present. Precisely. Yeah, exactly that. I definitely felt that. Not so much because I'm a black female author, but because of how much had happened before I finished it. So I was like, oh my God. So originally it was like complete high. Like my mum watches like Sopranos and Breaking Bad. And I remember trying to explain to her like, it was that HBO. She thought there were like nine HBO. It's like, oh, this is like another HBO that's like, I was like, no, it's the same one. And she was like, no, surely not. But they was so happy and everyone was really proud of me and I was really

feeding off of that but then obviously when I had to actually sit down and write and you know as we've mentioned very different circumstances I'm not miserable anymore like you know it's not locked down anymore so I was like hmm okay like how do I access that part of myself that like had nothing else to do other than be miserable and write the story and how did you what did you do um god you just completely suppress a part of your life I'm like what happened? Who was I um what did I do I think honestly so as you've mentioned, I do like to leave my house. I do love a nice dress.

And I think I just didn't do that for like two years. Like I just was really indoors and really like, um, I feel like I noticed that on Instagram. And I feel like you're like, my book's coming out. And I was like, oh, you always been working on her boat. You always have been in dresses. Yeah. I love watching the dresses.

And the events, I'm always like, where she's been? Yeah. It's a running joke at this point. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love that's nice.

I do love a dress. I do love an excuse to. like, you know, wear makeup and like be fancy because like honestly on a day to them, I'm not. And I also think like what you're saying about like writers and stuff. Like writers, I don't know where like the glamour's gone and why we're not seen in that way. But like I identify as like glamorous before identifying as a writer. There are people like you and Dolly Alderton. Yeah.

Carolina, Donnie Who is well. Yeah, bringing it in their very adult. Me way. Yes. Yeah, I love it. And it's a real, not that there should ever be guilt, but it's like an intellectual person's way to go like okay they look beautiful and

I love her writing well we were often follow people and be like and did you god she looked amazing in that which we never really do about Simon Rushdie do we I really loved the reread and the reason I did yes because we both read it obviously when it came out last year

before it came out some of us oh yeah Sarah's got the actual signed I read it so desperately trying to find out what's going to happen that I think I the reason I really enjoyed a reread is there is such dense wisdom. The second time round? I was like, she did not mention that.

I did not see that. Because you're so desperate. You're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Come on. What happened? What happened? Yes. And the first bit, I was like, that's pretty,

that bit cute. I underlined a lot of sentences. Yes, that's what I was trying to find on my buddy version. I was like, oh my God, she tells me from chapter one that's going to happen. And I didn't know that. So, that's a small thing. Congratulations, Jomi, on your good writing. Oh, thank you.

How quickly. the tech stuff, the web stuff has changed. Because if you said to me five years ago, you will one day say, who's on Twitter first thing in the morning? That feels like such a loaded thing now. If you were to write a novel in 2004 and the character goes on Twitter,

you'd be like, why? What red pill were they talking about? I mean, and also it's X. Exactly. And we had to change our original, like, tagline, which, I mean, my biggest bug bear, like, my biggest extra grind with Elon Musk is that he, like, fucked my tagline because the original tagline was verified couple,

unverified. Rumors. Isn't that iconic? And now verification is for any top-and-dick to Harry. That means nothing. So I was like, oh, thanks Elon Musk. You've absolutely ruined that belt. And that's how it means the characters are Tweeb's who paid Elon Musk to have a blue tick. Oh, no.

So that means like right-wing couples. Yes. And rumors. And fake news. This is about Boris Johnson and his wife. So, yeah. So isn't it crazy that this, you know, the technology changes so quickly now. I felt that as well.

Sorry, I was writing this in 2020. And it was set in 2019. So I started it in 2020. It was set in 2019. And then it came out last year. So it's like the amount of change. I remember when the acquisition was happening. And I was like, how is this going to change?

Like obviously everyone's still insane on the internet. So that's fine. Yeah, yeah. But just genuinely on a technical level, the amount of things that aren't relevant now and how dated it is in many ways, not necessarily in terms of plot, but in terms of...

Well, it's not done. It's just, it's pinned down to a time. But that's it's a bit of thing. Because technology moves so quickly, the good thing is I can read this book and 2019 is very accessible for me. It's not like, oh, 1920. What did they do? It's like, yeah, I remember when it was Twitter and I'm upset that everything's changed. And like, it's just a sort of testament you've captured a moment so quickly.

The other thing that was of very sort of of that time is sort of post Me Too. Everyone is very, very aware that there is a, there are. are problematic people working at a very high accolated level. Precisely. And the trouble with that is that they can use their position to further abuse that power. Yeah. And this question of how do we stop them? We still haven't answered it, unfortunately.

And so this book has a really interesting take on that because it isn't what you might assume, which is a guilty person being taken down, which is a very, very valid story. Yes. In fiction or non-fiction, but it's slightly more complicated where someone is being accused of something and they may or may not be entirely innocent. And one of the lines I underline because I loved it so much, which was Michael's sort of wife to be.

It was essentially that he might think himself innocent but still be guilty. Sometimes the guilty people don't even know that they're guilty. Yes, exactly. And that's one of the very... Yes, and all the other associate characters often say that. to her. Selly says, but what if he didn't know

he was doing? Yeah. And that was like that chilling moment where you're like, yes, that is what we're always dealing with.

It's not like murder where it's like, did I kill him? Did I slap him? He was dead when I left. Yeah. It was like when I arrived. And what I was thinking so much

in this reread is the only evidence if you're a heterosexual woman and you have a relationship with a man, the only evidence you have is how they've treated you which is no evidence

about how they've treated other people. No. And the rest is a guess. It's an assumption. It's a leap of faith. And that is what your book is exploring. And I have to say, just in case anyone hasn't read it, in a really fun way. In case it sounds like, oh, God.

It's a really fun, vibrant, beautiful group of people exploring that dilemma. So there was a version of this in comedy, the list. Not what you think, nothing to do with sexual predators. It's a really good example of how anyone can say anything online. Women in Comedy did a tweet saying, it's such a shame that Britain's Ellen DeGeneres is a bully or is such a bully. So she didn't name anyone. Yeah.

But then what happened was all the comments underneath were people saying who they thought it was based on this clue. And they were adding the people that they thought it was. And you can't offend yourself against a bullying. And a little bit like Michael the character, like how do you prove you didn't do something? When you don't even know where it's coming from? or if it's even about you. Yes. And I think that some people might think you had bullied there.

Yeah. And they start thinking about it. Well, hang on. Then you start getting philosophical and be like, what is bullying? And it's like, no. Like, you know, but it, I think that's the thing. I think for me, the biggest distinction was about it being online because I remember like someone got, someone, many people got annoyed at me for like, you know, spoiler alert,

like not focusing on someone who was like necessarily like guilty. So they wanted it to go, so it to be cut and dry. He was a guilty man being pulled up. A hundred percent. I honestly think. that had it ended, like, oh yeah, and by the way, he's guilty. Like, a lot of more people would have been, like, really happy, but I think it probably wouldn't be the book it is.

Because I think I didn't. I felt that really strange. I also read something saying, like, oh, like, yeah, it's, we're in this great area. But I was like, but that is the area that needs discussing, is the great area. That's the thing that's so unsettling. We, all of us could have, do something. We have a power now. Yeah.

And it's not even about, oh, I have power because I've got followers. because anyone has a power because if you say something online and it's believed, you cannot, you can not go backwards from that. You can have zero followers. And I think this is why the distinction

between online and offline is so crucial to me. Because when someone was like, oh, you know, I think one of the biggest kind of critiques is like, well, this happens so rarely that like, why give it space? Why give it oxygen?

It happens so rarely. And I'm like... But someone is accused who isn't... Right, where someone is accused where a person makes an allegation of a soul or anything that, you know, is false.

And I'm like, the statistics that we continue to use, right, which is that like 2 to 3% of rape allegations are false applies to the police. Yeah. It is when someone has gone to the police and reported an allegation.

It has nothing to do with the internet. That's a separate court. Right? And also that's not what your book is about. Precisely. Spoiler alert again. So there were about 70 men accused on the list. two of whom are

one who's like innocent one who it's like a bit murkier but like you know it's not straightforward as he's guilty I'm really shit of maths but I worked out the other day and I was like oh that's actually the exact percentage that you know we rely on which is between

two and three percent it's 2.8% so I god I hope that's right it's going to be really embarrassing but basically even though that would actually let's be frank would honestly be an underrepresentation of how much people lie on the internet by anything I still was like right We're only going to have two out of 70 people where it's like there's questions to be asked about the allegation.

But people applying like the standard that, you know, this is the percentage of people that have made up allegations when referring, you know, like when speaking to the police. And applying that to the internet is lunacy. People make things up on the internet every day. This is where the interesting story is. The internet is a place we all live. We live there more than real life and we don't have any boundaries on it. So we live in a wild west. It's lawless.

It is completely in all of us. And we still act like it's, oh, it's not a real place. It's over there. Oh, no damage can happen. What I loved about this book and also really picked up more on a re-read is you were dealing with a couple who are not secure. Yeah. And that's actually the point that this is why something like this would sense them

in, like, completely different points, you know, in the universe. Yeah. Because what we find out is Michael has lied about some things. He hasn't been truthful. And immediately as he's accused, Ola starts hiring a private detective, doing things that, like, if you were in a secure relationship. You wouldn't even each other would you do. And like, that's the thing.

They both turned to each other a lot of the conversations are like, but why aren't you, like, why aren't you just there for me? And you're like, because already in the back of both of their minds, there is a, this is a, this isn't really be together. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I thought there was a brilliant bit when, yeah, Michael says, like, you know, from the very beginning, Ola loved the potential of him, not him. And when I reread it, I was like, you're telling us from the beginning that this is, this is a flawed couple.

The first 40 pages you do use the word flawed about it. Yeah, like he's flawed. He's really flawed. They actually, there's a. It's so good looking I didn't notice. But I thought that's, again, really interesting because it's making another comment about relationships, romance in the age of, of Instagram as well, of like they become this like hashtag black love couple because their engagement picture goes viral. And again, I just thought what you're exploring is such a, like, modern problems. Right.

Like, would they have been together had that picture not gone by? Or had it not fitted all these things that were making them feel like, oh, my ego is being really fulfilled by this relationship. Right from the very beginning when they're in a VIP area drinking. Oh, yeah. It's like relationship as a performance. Yes. We are now allowed into, not just in gossip pages, into people's couples. Yeah.

Pictures. Oh, my God. In the book where it's like, there's. a celebrity influence a couple and the couple account starts refollowing him but she doesn't. Yeah, because it's like a separation. Yeah. And that's like, we know what that means politically. Like, oh, I see. So she doesn't, but the couple one is the business one. Yeah, exactly.

Like it is. And sometimes we do need to like take a step back and be like your book. A mirror held up to what's going on. And we go, oh God, yeah, this is baffling. It's crazy. It's happened really fast. But there is now, it's now monetized that people. people might be beautiful and fascinating and let us absorb some of it or, you know, consume some of it. And then there are real people behind them. Yeah. All those reality shows like made in children, scripted reality shows.

Yeah, yeah. Are people's real lives that they are selling. Or we're now really comfortable with that. Yeah. With the idea that a couple, a real couple will do that. Yeah. And I can just watch from my sofa. And it is what it is and it's completely normal.

And yeah, everything you're saying, I'm just like, it's so funny, I'm like a little book club about my own book. I mean, duh, literally it's called. But, like, yeah. No, I think it's so true. And I think as well, like, the specific pressures, like, there are black couple and there's a real kind of like, I guess, thirst for representation, especially like, you know, two dark skin black people. People really love it. And I speak, like, you know, we're just talking about reality TV. Speaking of, like, Love Island, I always say that, like, when black couples or like, black, two black people meet and fall for each other on Love Island, I take the pressure that they experience compared to, like, white love islanders.

is different because there is such a hunger for representation within the black community because black people full stop aren't necessarily represented like as much as we should be on the media or in the media so then when you know you see not just like one black person but two black people together and they're in love and it's a positive depiction like we start to like really unhealthily at times like pin all our like hopes and dreams on this couple and you see it a lot where like you'll just have these fucking like I mean it's like I look at love island I'm like it's fresh as week And also because of Love Island, they don't have a huge pool of people to choose from. Yeah.

So there is a lot of pressure. Oh, and if they don't choose each other, that's a whole different thing. But when they do choose each other, it's like, oh my God, this is amazing, which it's great. Like, you love to see it. You love to see black love. But I'm saying there's a reason that, like, the hashtag black love exists because you don't see it as much. So people, like, you don't see as much, I say, especially, like, when you're in a country

where obviously most people aren't black. So when people do see it, they really start putting a lot on that couple. And it's like things that are normal, like, fallouts and, like, breakups and whatever. people start being like, I don't believe in love whether, you know, if this couple don't make it. And it's like, they're like, I'm literally 22. I'm probably going to cheat on this person. Like, so it's just kind of like, it's a lot on them. And I think I don't know what the list would look like if their identities are different.

But I do know that, like, for instance, something that I think like, like, really resonated a lot. I think with American audiences is the fact that, like, Michael is a man, yes, he's also a black man. And, like, historically there have been, like, you know, instances. of use of someone's identity like as a black man to kind of then be like this person is not just a threat but like a sexual threat and you know XYZ. There is a racial element

to call out culture because Yeah like exactly the sexualisation of black men. Oh 100% because the criminality thing. The like assumed criminality and the assumed like degeneracy where I mean it happens to black women but it's slightly different because I guess the threat of danger isn't the same It's just a huge history.

Right? And it's very different. So I feel like with Michael, I honestly think another route that people would have got behind is if I'd have been like, Michael's innocent, but the person that accused him was white.

I think everyone would have been like, ah, okay, that's right. Because it's like, these are the archetypes that we're like, okay, this is the only, like, I think, I'm always saying this. I think right now we're kind of in a crisis with fiction of like the Disneyfication of like adult literature where we want it to be like

Disney where you know Jafar's bad. because look how he's drawn. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You've got, look at the eyebrows. It's like, you know their bastards. But then it's like, we want to like go in and be like, Michael's bad because he is a man and he's been accused of this thing. But that's what I loved about this book.

And I loved, again, I won't say it because it is spoiled, but that ending, I loved because I was like, oh, that's complicated. Yeah. And I think we're, bringing some truth. We're living in a really complicated time. Like anyone who's lived on the internet through the Me Too stuff. And, you know, we both work in comedy. And like, it's.

fucking complicated sometimes. Trying to pick apart what harassment means. Yeah. Who you know, who you believe when you know the man and the woman. And you're, you know, you're trying to go, okay, okay, what's the best moral route here?

And I thought what this does is offers up lots of questions, maybe not answers, but that's not the job of fiction. So I had no answers. So I'm going to leave. It's not your job. So much earlier, much earlier than the ending,

page 45, we've got something which I think is, we say, gray, I think of this as a, heterosexual conundrum. Because if you are a straight woman who finds men attractive, you will sometimes find yourself confronted

with male behaviour. Yeah. Right? So we're talking I can't remember what I wrote. Well this is about this is about Michael chatting girls up in the street. Oh, when he's like trying to remember her. Yeah. So it's about as a teenager, if he saw a girl with a pretty face

or a shapely behind on the road, he called after her and expertly extricated a name, a smile and a number from her, like a snake charmer. You'd follow them up the road sometimes. calling sure but not in a bad way he knew girls who didn't feel attractive if they weren't chatted up at least once when they were out still allah had mentioned that as a teenager walking up her street she'd more than once fearfully given out a fake number and prayed the guy didn't ring her phone then and there when did it go from chatting up to cat calling so yeah what you've

done and again this is what's so masterful about how packed the book is with these things you've done both you've given me a male and female perspective there was a really great podcast where a woman in Australia, stood outside in Kingscross, which is part of Sydney, and interviewed men who made sexual comments towards them. And they all said, it makes women feel flattered. This is the thing. And she kept saying, what if I told you that women laugh politely because we're scared? Yeah, and that's the thing. And it's like two things can be true at once, I guess. Because that fake number thing is literally pulled from my life. I remember when I was like a teenager, walking up my road, and this guy was talking to me, and I just remember, like, praying. Because I was, you know,

he rang like I gave him a fake number and I remember him ringing the phone in front of me and I remember thinking because he knows people give him fake numbers yeah exactly he's done this before I don't want to do it in my fucking school uniform but then on the other hand it's like today literally just an excuse to talk about someone

and said I was pretty today but like I was on the tube and this just gonna bring you in check for the the podcast is just gonna be this but I was on the tube today and this guy that like I got on the tube and was like it's literally turning to like a love one podcast

but like I got on the tube and this guy was like I was going and thought, oh, he's really handsome. And then I sat down and then he like, I caught his eyes a few times. And then he gestured and I was like, and he was like, oh, you're really beautiful. And I was like, thanks. And they literally just did like this tortoiseshell thing. I completely went inside himself. Not because I didn't like it.

I was so flat because I was like, he's really hot. Well, that's the thing. But I was like, oh, embarrassed. It can sometimes be a flattering, flirty and other times be a stranger harassing you. That's harassing you. And I think the thing is, I actually genuinely understand why people are afraid of the conversation in which you acknowledge that sometimes it's not always horrible and sometimes it is like, oh, you know, I'm attracted to this person and they're like being like, you know,

also showing an attraction that can be nice in certain context. I get why people are so afraid of like what about if you show an instance in which a man isn't guilty is because women aren't believed. So they feel like if you give any oxygen to that conversation, you're then overrepresending something, right? But I feel like if you don't, I'm always saying this, then the wrong. wrong kind of people take ownership of that conversation because we're not having it over here on the vote on the right side.

We're going, no, no, no, we can't talk about it. Yeah. So then people just go on the wrong side and like, well, we'll have that chat over there. And I'm like, well, we need to talk about it because it's true. I think you're really brave to do that with a central character. Because what I think another writer might have done is have like, Michael be perfect. Yeah. Because we need him to be perfect.

Right. For the story to work. And then have like, he's got a friend who has been to share to help up. Yeah. And everyone, not just men, everyone has layers where in a certain. light or something you have done or something that you've done ignorantly could be construed a certain way. A hundred percent.

Going back to all like Disneyification of like fiction and just life, I'm always saying that like I think a lot of writers of colour or minoritized identities and like even like I guess I feel like less so actually with just like female writers across the board because you do get books like really good actually and like the fleaback series where you know like you've got really messy protagonists. But I think a lot of authors of colour in particular because we've had to. such like a death for a start of like depictions but also like I don't know

like bad depictions we feel like it's on our shoulders to like correct a canon so then it's like people and I think also especially post 2020 a lot of white writers weirdly feel the same like complicit for the bad depictions of black characters so feel like if we are

going to write like black people or minorities they have to be perfect right so then what happens is that you end up and it's kind of even like even when you look at like women characters and XYZ like people obviously a lot of people again, it's a spoiler but a lot of people

were kind of like some people were relieved like oh fuck it's a man you know at the end of this is like being really horrible and I'm like yes I chose to make it a man but that doesn't mean that like women are incapable of bad things and I honestly believe that the idea that like based on identity you cannot do bad things it's like in some ways like

misogynistic to be like you know what women don't have the same capacity to do I think women aren't empowered to do bad things at the same rate. We don't have the capital. We don't have the space, the positionality in society

to be as evil as men are. I think that's why that show, the power. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like, you know, that I love that kind of central conceit of like, yeah, women got this power and then kind of went mad

because I think it's just that whole thing about power corrupting. And I think when I wrote Michael, I was like, and all I was like, I'm always saying this. My constant go-to example is, I'm from Croydon, and everyone is black in Croydon.

So literally, if you didn't know, everyone is black. And therefore, I'm always like, when I look at, like, the heroes of my story, they're all black in Croydon. And then when I look at the, like, the villains in my stories of Coyden, they're all black as well, because everyone was black. Just like the good and the bad people are black. And I feel like, you see that in shows with white protagonists constantly because everyone's white.

But then it's like in where black people are kind of just appearing in things, it's like there's a pressure of that they have to be perfect because they're the only white. Yeah, very, very wise. like very like over-educated very wise very like above the frayet I'm like well I'm just writing the messy world

that I grew up in therefore like Ola's going to be weird and then like Michael's going to be terrible but then also they're going to have these amazing people that are like really great in XYZ because that's the word I grew up around humans and I think that's the thing there's a pressure Have you watched American fiction?

I loved it and I met called Jefferson at the Baptist and I was so drunk and I like practically pulled him by the lapels and was like my sister's been reading you since We're so happy for you. And he was like, great. You were really nice.

Yeah. It was brilliant. Because so much has changed, as you say, since 2020. Yeah. In the discussion, already there's now the parodies of... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because people are noticing this. Already, like, it's literally come around so quickly.

Exactly. And I thought American fiction was great because Monk was terrible. It's like dreaming once black. Yeah, I love that show. Oh, it's brilliant. Oh, my God. Carbon is awful. It's horrible. But you so empathizing.

But I love it because I feel like, this is a part. Like you've got like I'm seeing 360 characters I can tell he didn't write that With the pressure of like He needs to be perfect and with Michael I really battled with it Like maybe I should make Michael super sympathetic Because then what's happening to him you feel really bad But I was like I'm actually gonna write a guy that like

Is just a guy and like probably like most men Sorry men But like it's pretty bad in some ways But does he deserve this? Yeah it made it such a more grounded read And also I think it made him more sympathetic because you could see like, he didn't always know what he was doing. He's a dumbass.

Sometimes he made the wrong. But like we all make mistakes. And obviously that's not. But we're not allowed to admit it because it's like now, I think we're in this really weird time where like, I don't know, we're in a really weird time where everything just feels so, like this is not groundbreaking, but everything feels super performative. And I think everything comes from a place of like not, it's,

I went to see the crucible last year. And I remember being like, oh my God, this is exactly what's happening now. Your book would be such a good accompaniment to the crucible because of the I think so. Yes. I think so. I think it's the crucible. Well, it is the crucible.

It's the crucible. I didn't realize. But of course it is because the crucible is a really good man being taken down because the women are believed. So it's not. Listen, if you've been listening, what our takeaway is, don't believe women. Basically, like, people make me say to get over it. It's not a big deal.

It's so hard. I think that's the thing. I think the hysteria of the crucible, right, was just so like... And how it rolls on and how you can't help being swept up in it. People not involved. That's what I like to fact this. Twitter people jumping on being like, hey, you should be sad. Yeah.

Do they even mean it or do they just want to... If you've been in a Twitter storm and you've had people go for you, it is the strangest thing to be like... Who are you? Who are you? And then sometimes like, hang on, I thought we were all right. Oh my God. And people being like, shame on you.

I always knew. Yeah. And I think that's the thing. as well like. I never liked her. Why did you say that yesterday? But I think like it's that thing of like people are way more cowardly than we like to admit and I think so much of this stuff comes from like people being like if I can quickly like say this person's like a piece of shit then maybe people will be less inclined to look through my old tweets. I really think a lot of that is the genesis. Because of course of all, there's people like shit well they're going to burn me at this day.

So let me like quickly. It's a attack as a form of defence. 100%. And I think that's the time we're living in now where people just feel so like they need to kind of like get it ahead of the story. I think it's that I also think as we're talking about it and it's because I've made a joke that I feel bad about because so many people have experienced something horrible. Yes, yes, yes, joking aside. Then we do believe it of all men. I really liked the choice to have it be our main characters, fiancee, because that's the juiciest point of view, right?

Because it's like how does the deepest, most vocalist feminist? Yeah. How do you defend that? And also should you defend it? But what if it is a lie? And believing women is so, so simple until it's someone you know and care about. But people don't like to say that.

And I think that's a thing, like, when I first was drafting it, the book was only from Orla's perspective. Because I just thought it was such an interesting and rarely depicted perspective. Yeah, yeah. What is it to be a woman who is, you know, if not the, like, fiancé, the best friend, the sister, the parent of someone who's accused something like that.

But also something that I think, like so important is that distinction of that allegation being on the internet where we are like taught I mean you know growing up in the era of like catfish and just like you know my parents literally being like do not believe anything or anyone that you believe on the internet because you know we all and then also being like in the midst of like a fake news crisis that's now being like oh my god turbo-filled by like AI I saw this like AI depiction of like Leonardo DiCaprio with like Margo Robbie and I was looking at the bodies and obviously it wasn't Leonardo Caprio because he was about four foot three.

But simultaneously, I was like, oh my God, what's happened? He's like shrunk because it was his face. And I'm like, you know, things are getting so sophisticated in the ways that we can, you know. Our brains didn't evolve to be able to be. No. Not at this rate. We're tricked. Yeah.

And we are tricked. And we think we're so above it. And also, before the internet, we knew in newspapers that there were lies. But we still believe things. Exactly. It used to say, don't believe it if you read it. And people often only read the headlines of things. Oh, most people.

Most, I remember I used to work at Channel 4 News in, like we used to have software where you could see how many people actually clicked on the links they were retweeing. And literally the percentage would be like this received 15,000 retweets. And of that 15,000 people, six people have clicked this link. Because people like to just share things because often like what it says about them, what it shows that they're across without actually engaging. I think it is because, again, women are so rarely believed that we take the roots that we can to justice, that it just feels like we can apply that logic to most other spaces and be like,

that probably doesn't shape up. But because women are so really believe people like, well, even if we are dealing with a really problematic, like medium, which just actually encourages lying, like, we're still going to just not look at the details. And also it's like, we do need better tools in how to protect people and stop people who are abusing their powers. This is the main thing.

It probably isn't going to be Twitter. But when you say that, because I'm always saying this, like we've had a lovely chat today. And I always say that, like, there's, literally nothing stopping me from being like, oh my God, lovely to see you guys. Oh, that's fab. And going home and being like,

a burner account. Weirdo book club girls are murderers. And there's nothing stopping me. Of course. Yes. Do you know what? My anecdote about this is that when I was in, why is this the second time I've told this story today?

I do not know. But when I was in primary school, this random girl told my primary school teacher that I brought a knife to school. Fuck. me. I love that you're laughing. Me! I don't know where.

She just randomly was like, Yomi brought an after school. And my teacher, obviously me being the baby angel that I am. My teacher literally was like, Yomi, come here and I was like, even at that young age I was like,

miss, do you think? And she was like, yeah, I literally'm asking like protocol because obviously a sweet, darling baby, like you would never dare. Which I didn't. I just remember that from a very,

I'm like, this is not helping quoting his reputation. Oh my God, but from a very early age. She just said it. She just randomly was like, and I think I've experienced that. Like, another one.

when I was at uni, I'd never had sex. And I remember this guy literally just told people who had sex. And I'll never forget, I went up to him in front of all his friends. And I went, how, we've never had, I was like, I've never even kissed. I've never even gone on a date with you. I've never even floated with you. I am also a virgin. And it was like the biggest, like, and I remember, I'll never forget.

He just looked at me. I was like stammering. And I was like, so bamboosal. And then I remember one of my friends was like, oh, that happened to me. Because another guy at our uni had literally, she also was a virgin. We just walking out with these Nigerian, like, Christian virgins and all these guys because we were kind of like party girls were like yeah because I think what they thought was oh we're quite because we were quite like out there I think they assumed we were sexually active and they'd get away with it but because it wasn't even we were like oh no we didn't have sex with you we were like we literally have never what is sex like no no my friend I was like I've never had sex and I remember like the whole kitchen was just like um and I remember that's when I was like so people actually can say anything so I think I'm very used to people just like absolutely putting shit out of their bum and I'm like on the internet and I'm like on the internet and I'm like on the internet and I'm like on the internet. more than ever.

So for me, I think it's interesting that people see it as like some sort of like having some sort of bearing on like allegations of abuse because to me I'm like, it's about the internet. It's like I understand that that's the vessel I chose to tell the story through. But I could have done this about TripAdvisor. Like, oh. And you make that point in the book, you can say something about a restaurant you've not been to. And been like, oh, yeah, I never received that. And it's like, I don't even know.

Do you know what I mean? Sometimes generous people, they just put one star on. And we acknowledge that's possible. We acknowledge it's possible. One of my friends literally said that she had like constant review bombings and she found out it was like a hater basically. Well, people do it like, you know, it's a way you can attack people.

A hundred percent. And I think what's crazy is we understand it in all these other contexts. But again, because we understandably are afraid to go there when it comes to allegations of abuse, we don't. And that's the thing. It doesn't, in my mind, it doesn't feed into the narrative of like,

you're saying women lie at all. Because to me, I'm like, the internet is a completely different. Get out of fish. People, people, people, lie about things. Yeah. Lie about things and are like cats, dogs.

I don't know, maybe cats and dogs don't. But do I mean? Like, it's just nature. They do. They pretend that you haven't, they haven't been fed cats and dogs. They pretend they haven't been fed when you fed them. They lick their empty bowl and people come over and they're like,

oh, you're dog's like a dog. Yeah. I'm certainly so grateful we're living in a time where this conversation is happening. I'm certainly like compared to like when we were at uni and it was just like, oh yeah, that's what happens. You know, this is awful men are. awful. And then to see other people be like, just to see what happened with me too. Everyone would be like, fuck. And all these conversations with men are like, oh, we didn't realize.

I didn't know. And every woman being like, oh, every single one of us has a story. Every single one of us. But that doesn't mean that there's not other conversations to be had. So I think we're living in an amazing time. Again, it's like with all things, nothing's all good or all awful. And like the internet, she said like, you know, Twitter, what, kids. is an amazing thing to link all of these women together and to destroy this, the patriarchy of gossip and being like, oh, gossip is meaningless and that you shouldn't take any heed to it.

But actually you go, oh, it's how women survive. Yeah. It's a fantastic book. So good. And I think it's a perfect book club book because we got into it. We were like, yeah. I forgot I wrote it. If you haven't read it, what have you been doing?

Well, we've ruined it all for you and you deserve that. No. We sometimes, although we forget, we talk about the star sign of the author. and when I was trying to find it out, I found out that you made written a whole article about how amazing it is to talk about star signs. Oh, that's my whole shit. Thank you so much for coming out.

Thank you, guys. I can't wait for your TV show and for your next book. Oh, thank you guys. I appreciate it. Thank you for listening to the Weirdo's Book Club. The list by Yomi Adagouka is out in paperback from today. Go and get it. It's so good.

Guess who is sitting next to in the bookshop? Yes, it's my novel Weirder that's also out in paperback today. And next to it, not really. It will be in the self-help and grief section is my first. You are not alone. Also in paperback. You can find out about all of our upcoming books that we're going to be discussing

on our Instagram at Sarah and Carriads Weirdo's Book Club. Thank you for reading with us. We love reading you.