Sara & Cariad's Weirdos Book Club - The Midnight Train by Matt Haig with Matt Haig

Episode Date: May 28, 2026

This week's book guest is The Midnight Train by Matt Haig.Sara and Cariad are joined by the internationally bestselling author himself, Matt Haig.In this episode they discuss steam trains, Sheffield, Ulysses, modernism and Def Leppard.Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you!Follow Sara & Cariad’s Weirdos Book Club on Instagram @saraandcariadsweirdosbookclubProduced by Naomi Parnell.Recorded and edited by Aniya Das for Plosive.Artwork by Welcome Studio.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Sarah Pasco. And I'm Carriead Lloyd. And we're weird about books. We love to read. We read too much. We talk too much. About the too much that we've read. Which is why we created the Weirdo's Book Club. A space for the lonely outsider to feel accepted and appreciated. Each week we're joined by amazing comedian guests and writer guests to discuss some wonderfully and crucially weird books, writing, reading and just generally being a weirdo. You don't even need to have read the books to join in. It will be a really interesting, wide-ranging conversation and maybe you'll want to read the book afterwards. We will share all the upcoming. We're going to be discussing on our Instagram, Sarah and Carriads, We're Goodo's Book Club. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you. This week's book guest is The Midnight Train by Matt Haig. What's it about? A man rides through the important moments of his life. What qualifies it for the Weirdo's Book Club? Well, the man is dead. In this episode, we discuss Steam Trains, Sheffield, Ulysses, modernism, and deaf leopard. And joining us this week is Matt Haig himself. You know Matt Haig, he's a global international bestseller. He's written

credible novels like The Humans, How to Stop Time, the Midnight Library. He's also written children's books, a boy called Christmas, which became a major feature film. He's written non-fiction, Stay Alive, the Comfort book. His most recent fiction, The Life Impossible, was a Sunday Times, New York Times bestseller. He's been published in 56 languages,

and he is an incredible human, and he's going to be here with us talking about it. Trigger warning. In this episode, there are mentions of suicide. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the podcast. We're so excited to have you. Thank you so much. you're joining us. I'm honoured. This is my favourite book podcast. No. It genuinely is. It's always on my feed and I'm always... Stop it. I'm a little bit blushy by that. It's incredible. I think maybe

Matt's a very charming fibber. Yeah. If you watch the start of any podcast I'm on, I will say. This is my absolute favourite podcast. This is my absolute favourite podcast about cats. Well, it's what I see the most. It's all I see it. Yeah. You don't listen to it, but you see it. No, but that must mean I like it, isn't it? The algorithm expects you to like. Yeah, that's true, that's true. Well, we do really like books, and you've written a book about the importance of reading and books. I know, but I think so, yes.

I thought you were going to say about trains. I was like, and we do like books, and you've written a book about trains. No, sorry, carry on, carry on. You were so confident with it, and I was like, Sarah, I was about, where are you going with that? I just thought you were going to say trains. This always, I've noticed this, because it happened with Stephen Mang the other day. whenever I start a sentence Carrie has worried

who says a lot about our friendship No it's like it's like like it's going to be books because I think I forgot that this book is also about the power of books so that I was like she must be about to say trains that's what happened okay so this is interesting Matt you're two readers here

one of them thinks your books about trains one of the things about yeah sorry what's your book about please I've no idea it could have been called the midnight bookshop I suppose yeah the midnight train

as to be clear the midnight train brackets to bookshops. Yeah, and it is a sort of a sister book to the midnight library in the world of. Yeah. Definitely. It's kind of having an argument with it. Okay. Tell us what the midnight train is about.

Obviously, trains is the big selling point. It's about a man who dies and he's at a train station and the train he gets on takes him back for his life and he sort of sees all his childhood and his regrets and his successes and he's not allowed to get off the train. And he wants to, because especially to do with his relationship to a woman called Maggie, which he sort of, yeah, not in a very dramatic way, but he kind of let go. And yeah, he wants to redo that aspect of his life. Yeah, what we know right at the beginning of the book is that he's died

and that he loved a woman who he married and had a happy honeymoon with. And then the only other thing that we know is that they're not together at the end. So it's a sort of romantic mystery at the beginning. Yes. Because they're thinking, how do two people who are so happy then grow apart, such as life? Well, and then when they're train, tell us about. Sorry. And how is so if people haven't read the Midnight Library, I mean, obviously a lot of people have read it.

I think I read it for the Sarah Cox show. Yeah. So they did that. That's when they started bringing in a special. What's that program called? Sarah Cox's book program. Between the covers. Between the covers, thank you.

I was like, we should say it. It was a good show. Between the covers. It's a lovely book show. I'm sure it's still going. No, they cancelled it. Like all the book programmes. Damien Barr's, big Scottish book club just got cancelled. Oh gosh. And between the covers. I didn't know between... Did you want to make me cry on the podcast?

I know. I'm sorry. I know. It's really sad. Does she do Radio 2 book club? Yeah. Yes. I think she writes now as well. And then Damien Bar's amazing. It's sort of Scottish book club as well, which is also lovely, lovely little audience, really nice. How would you cancel those shows? I mean, maybe they have such little money.

But those shows are so cheap. I know, but that's how much empty their person. But it's like when the government is trying to save taxes, it's like, okay, we're going to say old people can't have five pounds. It's like, really is that how you want to save money? I know. I know, it's really sad. So, yeah, sorry to announce that to anyone who didn't know that.

Yes, but between the covers, I think it was the, you know, so everyone has a book that they've chosen. And then you all read a book and discuss it. I read the Midnight Library on that head. And everyone just absolutely loved it so much because you put so much heart into your work. and it does feel like you're trying to say, how can people be happier? Yeah, which, you know, it's kind of a slightly

unfashionable thing, I think, especially in this country. It's kind of, I don't know, you're not really meant to do it. You're not meant to be emotional or earnest. Yeah, earnest. And I certainly, when I started writing, I wasn't writing this sort of thing. Like many years ago, I was writing quite bleak books. I wrote a book that no one read called The Possessions.

of Mr. Cave and literally everyone died. And there's no light in it. It's about this really possessive, overprotective father who thought he was doing his best for his daughter. And he wasn't. And it's just about, you know, there's literally no light. There's no hope at all. And I was so depressed right, and I thought,

what is the point of like putting just more misery? Yeah. So I try and look for some sort of... In your defence? Go on. Number one, I don't think writers really have a choice what they're going to ride. I mean, I think it has to come out. And if you try and trick it, it will just be very bad.

But also, the point that you make in this book is that the reason that we have such a wide spectrum is that at certain points in life, and for lots of people, there is a right book. And actually, that's why we do need all types of books, I think. Need all the flavours. Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes you really do, misery does need company. Oh my God, yeah. And it's the only thing that stops you feeling lonely.

Well, I think if you think of like, well, I can't speak for you guys, but like me, like when I was 20, the sort of books I was loving would not do that much for me now. You know, it was very much like 90s, quite extreme, sort of edgy, laddie. Well, we had that. We went back to a book that I was obsessed with at university by Grand Central Station. I sat down and wept.

And when we came back to it much older and people, who had had children and been married, we were like, wow, these guys shouldn't be together. But at the time, we were like, oh, God. What we considered romantic is completely changed. I think it's, you know, there's a few points. It's a few points. You could read Catcher Mara right, isn't it? Yeah.

You could read Catcher Ray at one point in your life. Oh, my God, yes. And then another point, it's like, what you're whining about? Yes, exactly. And this is so the midnight train is in the world of the Midnight Library, but a very separate, like you said. Yeah. And it didn't start off being any kind, I mean, it's not a sequel, but it didn't start off being any kind of follow-up.

It wasn't midnight anything. It was a book called The Memory Thief. The first draft of this was about AI, weirdly. The only thing that remained was the honeymoon in Venice. The original idea was a bit sort of black mirrorish, where it was just like a honeymoon in Venice. And then Venice started disappearing. And he didn't know why Venice was.

And then his wife started disappearing. And what it basically was in that first draft was it was a sort of AI software company had offered people at the business. the end of their life to relive that. Oh, great, yeah. Without them knowing if I didn't want to. And then his, you know, AI is glitching. And so it was very sort of like...

So it's completely true for the reader at the beginning. This is reality. And then it starts to fade and they realise, oh, it's a fiction. Yes. Created. Oh, wow. And it was, I really like the concept, but it was just, it started to feel really cold. And the characters weren't there.

So I just went a bit more back with my sort of like children's author hat on. And I thought like, Steve. trains. I was thinking of warmth and, you know, make it less. I guess you need it to be true. So someone reliving memories being there at the same time, you've got ghosts in the real world, whereas AI is construction.

So it does make sense that it would be a little bit more removed. Yeah, it would have been an okay short story. Like it was a high concept thing. Or great pitch. That thing sometimes looks so brilliant. I can see it's got great pits. You're like, oh, wow. And like, we always say this for the show I do,

ostentatious. People improvise. Jane Austen and people shout out titles. And if they shout out a title that's so funny, the audience laugh, it won't be a good show because it's like, the idea is so funny. You've already told everyone.

You don't really want to see that. Yeah, it's all content. Sometimes they say it and you're like, well, it's done in the title. Yeah, the concept, you've already made the story. Which I think what you've done here is really lovely that he, yeah, he gets on this steam train,

starts going back through his life. And also he is from the 20th century very much. So he is from not the world of AI. He is from the world of AI. tangible things. Called memory of the war, losing family in a war. I'm a generation where they would have possibly played with trains

as a child. My sons are still obsessed. Like, my God, we have to go on a steam train several times a year. Oh yeah, that's why. I got pretty excited about this. So this cover is going to make every bookseller in the world. Yeah, so happy.

Be madly in love with your book. That was the idea. Probably in the window. Very clever. Just put a bookseller right in the middle of the strap. That wasn't my idea. You must, as a reader and now as a writer, have a real fondness for the industry. As in people in shops selling books.

Yes, definitely. And that side of it is kind of what I'm trying to talk about in the book where I talk about book shops. I'm talking about that art of matching a book to a person. You have this amazing character, Agnes, who runs this Bagdale's book shop. And she's sort of, the reason this little lovely bookshop is successful is Agnes. She is the beating heart, which our character visited as a child. And I was thinking, like, I had a bookshop like that in my town growing up. And the difference when I shoplifted from the library.

Oh, you shoplifted from the library? Before they had, when they bought in the electronic doors, the alarms, I was like, that's because of me. Because I just put them in my bag. I couldn't believe anyone stopped you. Oh, that's good. I shoplifted, but never from a library. I got arrested for shopping. I did, when I didn't get arrested, I got taken to the back of body shop

and they said they were calling the police and I had to make up a story and cry. What did you do, Matt? That must have been shoplifter central. Yeah, I was doing it to order. Anyway, this has become a professional. Where were you shoplifting? Well, I was, I grew up in Nottinghamshire. So I fancied myself as sort of Robin Hood.

And I like, so I got caught for shoplifting, wet look hair gel when I had hair. And a... From boots? What we're talking to? From boots. Boots, yeah, classic. And a crunchy bar. So he obviously sold confectioner at the time.

And yeah, and I was just, you don't shoplift from boots because they've got lots of plainclays people. Yeah, boots are quite on it, aren't they? Because they like that product. It's not like the library. And also it's very expensive boots. I think it's sort of added into the prices. I do think it's expensive.

That cruncher would have been 12p more than you'd have got it in Deborah Smith. Oh, yeah. I honestly believe that. Boots was always a little bit expensive. It's more expensive than Superdrug. Yeah. It was a higher class of product. That's what they want you to think.

It's the same thing. They're just got security cards. But Superjug has cheaper stuff. We're really going into it now. Yeah. Super Jug has cheaper makeup. Oh, so it's not cheaper because it's just cheaper. No, I think the range they offer more, like they offer a lower rate, like, which actually, hey, there's some really great bad.

Also, they want to advertise on the podcast. Yeah, we're not having low rent. I like the vibe of Super Bowl. How old are you when you got busted? 16. 16. That was the last of it. I shoplifted from Miss Selfage, but didn't get caught.

I didn't do it often because I had a friend who would do it to order. She had a denim jacket in bath and bodyworks. And she would, you know, they had sets. Yeah. She would just pick up the set and just put it under her denim jacket and just walk out. That is balls. Shopping with her was terrifying though. Because you'd think you're just shopping.

Adrenaline. Yeah. Then she'd be like, keep walking, keep walking. Yeah. God, you've done it. She would give you no warning she was about to do it. Yeah. That's quite hardcore.

Yeah. She was hardcore. I think if we're honest, it might be an issue. I used to do it with it. My mum would go to Morrison's on a Friday night and I'd be like, oh, I'll come. Oh, that's nice Matthew. And I'd just like hang back and pick a mix. Yeah, pick and mix I feel is. It's a bit of a problem. But pick and mix is all right. I've got a couple of pick and mix.

Again, I think it was imbiltons to the price. It was so expensive. I love that you're like blaming the structural system. No, no, I'm not blaming it. It's a response. It's not a chicken and egg situation. Shoplifting starts and then they charge you more for those things because you're paying for the people who don't pay for it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's covered in the price, guys. I'm not, I'm not even excusing it. That's not a moral judgment. I think that's factual. I did have a like a little

moral code, but you didn't, you know, if it was a big, massive brand, then that was okay. Yeah, yeah. But you wouldn't go into the sort of local. No. Anyone's independent shop. Independent bookshops, which is what we were talking about before we all revealed a criminal past. Yeah, was there, was there a bookshop? I want to ask you that like when you were growing up. Literally no, because I mean, they've got a bookshop now, but Newarkon, Trent, in the 1980s, did not have a bookshop. It didn't have a cinema. I mean, it was a town of 40,000 people. But beyond the library, it did have a theatre.

My mum was doing Amdram at the theatre, but it didn't necessarily have anything you'd want to watch at the theatre. And it did have a Friday night movie, so it's sort of doubled as a, you could watch dirty dancing about two and a half years after everyone else was. It's still worth it, though. Still worth it. It doesn't matter when that movie turns off. your life, it's the right time. Yeah. Well, it was so embarrassing being a boy saying you like Dirty Dancing,

but Dirty Dance is amazing. It's a great, great film. Let's not get on a tangent about that, because I'll do another podcast about Dota Tans. So you sort of invented this bookshop then, this wonderful bookshop. Yeah. I mean, I have obviously been to lots of bookshops,

and there's lots of bookshops alike. And we want to set up a bookshop. That's like, because like, you get to a point where you're just going mad, staring at a word document all day all your life. so we want to do something real. Yeah. Out there. So, yeah, I've been thinking a lot about bookshops.

Have you found a venue for the bookshop? We did find a venue in Brighton, but then, yeah, we did a really rubbish, like, bid. We had to bid for it because it was in a really good location in the lanes. Oh, nice. And, like, they had about 10 brands want it. I think it's going to be one of those, you know, those, I always forget its name, but the ice cream place that does the sort of flowers, you know. Oh, yeah.

Amorino? Amorino. It's good ice cream. You might not have lived in Brighton, then. When we were at university, since early 2000s, there was a book shop that was on the way down from the station where the man worked there, and he was the only person who knew where all the books were.

And then he disappeared. If you told him what you needed, you couldn't look. If you told him what you needed, he would just put his hand out on it, and he just had it. But he was a much older man. It looked like a Parisian bookshop. He's just piled with books. Yeah.

I mean, there's a closed-down bookshop on that street, which might have been it. No, this would be it. It was close to a long time. I think we came a charity shop. But it was just sad because they didn't even ever know what happened to the man. That was the mystery. He'd left this mystery. He was always a mystery.

How does he know where all the books are? Why doesn't he keep them alphabetically like all the other shops? How is he making a living? And then where did he go? That is, again, the great kids books. There's a lot of lost bookshops in Brighton. There used to be one called the Unicon Book Shop, which closed down in the 1970s.

But in the 1960s, that was like, or Brighton being Brighton, It was like the most radical bookshop. It published like some J.G. Ballard short stories that wouldn't be published anywhere else. Because it was just like, I can't remember. There's a rude one about Ronald Drake. Oh, I see. Wow.

And what will your bookshop be like then? Not like that. No. Well, I don't know. Like people have the classic idea of like the Shakespeare and Co. Sort of par them high books everywhere. But I feel like I don't know if it's my ADHD or whatever, but I kind of want like quite a minimal bookshop. Like where you have books as kind of like facing out.

So you'd have no books with the spines out. Yeah, because it gets so lost with all those spines like that. It'd be kind of like a book club, but as a book shop. So you'd have like your fiction of a month, children's book of a month, nonfiction of the month. So it feels really curated. Curated, that's what you have. I think foils do a lovely job of that. Yeah, they do.

But in that you do, it doesn't feel overwhelming when you go. Foyles is very easy browsing. Yeah. Well, dangerous, I'd say dangerous. Yeah. Yeah, because that is that, isn't it? It's really good at making you want more. Yes.

And there's the thing, if you write kids' books, there's nothing more upsetting than the amount of kids' books that exist. And they're like, oh, we do have a copy, and it's like tucked in so all they can see of the spine in a corner. You're like, no child will ever, ever pull that book out of that shelf. Like, it's so... Oh, Alby would, who'd pull them all off. Yeah, it would be in that section because he'd be in the younger section.

He'll pull all the books up on the shelves. Good. Get him over to the middle grade section. I also think like in the internet age, we don't need a bookshop to have every single book. Like a job of a bookshop, you know, to look like you really care about the books. Yeah. Yeah. People don't go into a book shop for a particular book.

They go into browse to go, I'm open. I'm open. Oh, I don't have one in my bag. Book bar is very good for that. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, book bar. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

And backstory in South London as well. Like, great when they feel very small and boutique. Bootie. Well, it would be a cafe as well. Oh, lovely. But, you know, so it would be the original idea was free. free coffee, but then I looked into that, and it's not going to be free coffee. It's going to be very expensive.

No, that's going to be our selling point. It's really overpriced coffee. Nine pounds. It's 1899 if you have a big one. Matt signed it, though. So you can't throw the cup away. Currently, people enjoy coffee more if they've overpaid for it. Really?

That's why it works. So Naomi Klein, a friend of the podcast, in no logo, the Starbucks model, they tested it. And essentially it was familiarity. So wherever you went, it felt like somewhere you knew. And people liked paying a pound more than they should have done. Because you felt like it's a treat. It's why people think boots is better than Superdraud. Yeah, well, that's it.

Gosh, that is why I think Boots is better than Superdraud. Because I'm going to boot. It's like, I'm a treat for myself. We're going to Superdrug. I'm going to super drunk. I'm going to super drunk. Oh, sorry Superdrog. In terms of your life, so you talk about lots of books.

There's lots of book dropping. Yes, if you're a reader, this is a great. There's lots of lovely. And so I wondered how if those books you were in the minds of your character thinking, what would he have had or if there were overlaps with you in your reading? A little bit. I mean, like John Steinbeck was a writer that I was bored to death of at school. But then I read, reread the grapes of wrath.

And like, that is such a book for now because it's about what happens to an economy when technology takes over and how a human is lost and it's a migration story. I've never read that. We should do that for the podcast. I've read a lot of John Sybar, but not Great So Wrath. I've only read of mice and men. I've read of mice and men at school. Yeah, that's a classic GC.

Travels with Charlie, have you ever read that? How about his dog? About his dog. He's traveling around with his dog. Charlie, but why do you both sit sad? The dog lived forever, right? Yeah, the dog live forever. Yeah, the dog's fun.

It's not. I was written in 1962, but the dog's still around. It wasn't sad. It was like, it's a really beautiful book. Like, it's him traveling around. It's like a really great travel piece. It's like, and him and the dog just hanging out. But yeah, I haven't read Great So Rath.

And you quoted it in there and I was like, oh, that's a, wow, what a great quote. Like, some amazing writing. I feel like he's been forgotten a bit as well. Yeah, totally. But I think the GCS has slightly done that. Yeah, but I think our generation did in for GCCC, then he's gone off the syllabus and therefore he doesn't exist anymore.

Yes. But he's a brilliant writer. Yeah. And yeah, but that's like, yeah, he was quite radical as well. Did he write the one East of Eden as well? Yes. Yeah. Yes.

Yeah. Yeah. Yes. He did East of Eden. Like socialist fiction. But he's just. Because he's been so in the curriculum here and in America for so long, he's so sort of like... We take him for granted a bit, I feel like, oh yeah, he's great.

I think that could be the case with some of like the best 20th century writers. Well, I feel like Jane Austen had that for a long time. And now, just because of the anniversary, everyone's like, oh, no, she is actually really good. Yeah, it's not. Maybe it's the equivalent of when people keep telling you to watch a thing, it's really good. And you go, I'm never going to watch it, everyone's watching it. And then you do and then you go, oh, it's really good and you become a concert. That is just you that does that.

No. It is. Everyone else goes, I'm watching it, someone everyone's talking about it. If people tell Sarah Toots think she will not watch it. No, that also isn't true,

but it can be. I think everyone has that contrariness. I do think it's a human thing. Matt, please adjudicate. No, definitely. And books are the best space to be contrary, aren't I? I mean, this is what I slightly worry

about sort of like the modern internet side of book culture and the star rating kind of culture where everything becomes average. You know, it's what the average consensus is of a book. I think that's dangerous. I mean, the amount of books I really like are like 3.3.

Yes, I always find that so surprising when I'm researching something. I'm like, three by three. This book's right. Why did they do that? And you're like, yeah, it's averaged out. And I think what you do well in this book as well, of like the honesty about reading of like, it's a book for you right now.

It's not a book for everyone. And also, it's a book. So how dare you? That just shouldn't happen. There's lots of things that just shouldn't be allowed. It's not applicable. But also when they do all these reviews so quickly on Instagram and it's like, okay, so I'm going to tell you it's about a train,

it's about this, I thought it was great. And I read this one and it's the competitive reading as well. Like everyone's trying to read so much and her thing was 50 great books, should you read them or not? And it's just going, yes. Maybe. No. Yeah, I've seen this.

This is a TikTok thing. Yeah. Yes, definitely. I'm reducing it to just like one expression. Yeah, because they have to for the reels. Yeah. But yeah, I do think that. I'm with Sarah,

because it's almost like rating people, isn't it? Which we also do every time we get out of an Uber. Oh, yeah. And we're at 3.3 on good people, aren't we? So annoying. And, I mean, it is, I mean, it is becoming, in lots of livelihoods, comedy you can feel a bit like that sometimes. Because members of the public have absorbed that system,

so they'll go home from your show. and then Instagram with their star rating, which no one has asked for. I imagine comedy's the most personal thing, because the blurring between you and the material must be so intense. But also, again, that thing of like, if I hadn't done my time, like, what are you taking stars off for?

If I've been late, the Amazon review was they like, when they're like, one star, I haven't opened it yet, so I don't know. And you're like, why are you here? I saw, actually, because Lena Dunham's book, which everyone is crazy for bananas for, has a low rating on Waterstone.

It shocked me because they thought everyone I know is going bananas. They get it. They love her. She's giving all the tea and all that stuff. And it was someone who the signed copies. They didn't like the print. They thought it was going to be more special. And so she's got, because something like Waterstones,

they don't get hundreds and hundreds. You might end up with three. So if one of them gives you a one or a two. Yeah, that knocks the right down. Two and a half. Wow. Yeah. Wow.

Yeah. I mean, Shakespeare's a 3.7, I think. Yeah. It's average style. Well, it's that one, there's a Jane Austen one, isn't they, about Pride and Projudice, where it's like two stars, just rich people going to other people's houses. Don't bother or something. It's like, that's why you shouldn't read reviews.

But that's what, let's get back, like, that's what's so nice about this book, which is so brilliant that it is respecting the art of taking time with reading. But then our character, Wilbur, in our story, where he's watching his life, becomes a very commercial bookseller. So that's interesting, right, because he starts. I mean, he stops reading. He stops reading, which is so sad. I mean, you know the characters in trouble when that happens.

Well, that's it in life. Yes. When you're very stressed, the first time I went to the Edinburgh Fringe Festival, I thought, what is wrong with my brain? The words wouldn't go in. And I realised. During a pandemic, loads of people stopped reading as well. Just couldn't take it in.

So it can be a response to your brain is working through too many things. It can't let go of those things it's trying to work through. Yeah. I mean, I'm an increasingly bad reader. I increasingly find it. hard to start a book and finish a book without starting another book. You know, I have a growing pile by my bet, which isn't a sign of me being a good reader. It's a sign of me being a bad reader because I'm not actually committed.

Yeah, yeah. And focus. To go further into that, is there something about the books that aren't grabbing you? Or is it an ADHD thing of, I also want to be reading that? An ADHD thing exacerbated by work, stress, being a writer and bringing that to what you read, You know what I mean? So you're like comparing or, you know. So there's so much going on.

And yeah, I mean, I've always liked short books. I always like books that you can kind of just dip in. What I like to call it, a nice light book. Yeah. In the bag that's not heavy. This is good. This is nice. I like short chapters, as you can tell.

And because I don't like going to sleep mid chapter. You know, I like to have that sense of like completing. I like white space in the book as well because it's kind of a... I think that's good in the book. Yeah. Yeah. Makes you feel like I can do that. If we have a book coming up and I open it and it's, you know,

and the font is like nine and it goes right at the top of the page right the way down, I am, my heart sinks because I'm like, oh God, this is going to be, this is going to be a big one, going to need to read this six weeks beforehand. So, yeah. But I always think, you know, like, was there a meeting or something where everyone decided to have like 12-page chapters? Because, you know, there's a sort of set thing that we do this. And I never understand why.

Because it doesn't always feel like, some chapters feel like, yeah, they should be 12 pages. And sometimes it's just like a chapter can be like a thought or something. And I don't know. Have you ever read Invisible Cities by Italo Calvino? Oh, do you mention that in here? Don't you mention Calvino? I do.

Yeah, yeah. But that's like one of the shortest books ever. That's why, one of the reasons why I like it. But it's one of those things, it's like 90 pages. And each chapter is just a different imaginary city. Oh, wow. They're all versions of Venice, basically. I think it's Marco Polo.

talking to Kubla Khan and trying to say to Kubla Khan, oh, you've got this amazing kingdom because you've got all these cities, but they're all made up cities. And I love it because you can actually open it. So it's actually, even though it sounds super highbrow, it's super accessible because you can just pick it up at any page and just read that in that moment. Yeah.

So our character Wilbur, when he has become this commercial bookseller, again, is that something that you wanted to explore? like that but even books have suffered from capitalism. Yeah. And it's sort of talking like how I was probably feeling, you know, like as soon as you're sort of like, your writing becomes your career.

Yeah. You sort of like got that in your mind as to, you know, because you're thinking, how much am I writing for me versus how much am I writing because, you know, it's expected of me or there's a contract or, you know, so it's finding it becomes a question the further you go in a career,

doesn't it? How much is, this is just what I'd be doing if I was starting now. If I was starting now, is this what I'd be doing? And it's impossible to know. Have you read The Fountainhead by Anne Rand? No. Okay, so you don't have to read it.

This isn't me recommending Anne Rand to anyone. So please don't blood you write in. It's a tricky tiger. Unfortunately, I did not know the political significance of An Rand when I read the Fountainhead. It's actual question and it uses architecture as a really great example is creation and compromise. Do you want someone to live in your building or do you want to design the most beautiful building, the one that's in your heart?

And all of us are somewhere on the spectrum of compromise and for lots of people very reasonably they don't want their buildings to exist only on paper and they would rather die never having put a single brick into existence and for other people, they want the buildings to work for the people who are going to work in them and live in them. So there is this element of it's not going to have that dangerous steeple on it for beauty's reason.

because it needs to be practical. So it's a book about that. But of course because it's Anne Van, she is going. And if you would compromise, just go and kill yourself now. Because you are bad industry. So I think it's really interesting what you're saying. Because also you have like livelihood questions, but you also have awareness of an audience

who are going to buy your next book because they liked the one before. So if you did something quite, let's not say selfish, but self-interested, this is my story I want to tell. It would be tricky. And it can work at both ways. Because, like, I mean, my taste naturally are quite commercial. Like, I've genuinely, I mean, I was a child of the 80s, so, you know, Spielberg movies and John Hughes movies, you know, that's just like.

And Essie Hinton novels and, you know, it's quite commercial tastes that I genuinely like, but things that's seen as commercial. So sometimes when you're being accessible, you are being totally authentic to you as well. So it's not always a case that being more. choose or difficult or personal even is necessarily you being more true to yourself. I think it's really lucky if that's how it lands. If you go, that's how I chose to tell the story and brilliantly it connects with lots of people because people saw a lot of them. It was easy to recognise yourself in it. It's difficult, isn't it? Because also I don't think of choose people are doing it on purpose. I think they think they're being clear. It's your authentic

self. I remember Richard Osman talking about this of like he grew up being obsessed with television, genuinely obsessed with it and like he genuinely likes things that everybody likes and he genuinely likes, like he's like, oh, I love it. And he clearly, he comes down to the hammer. Yeah, and that's why like he can make those programmes that are so popular because he has an understanding, you know, he's at the same pond as those people.

And I agree with you, the people who are not at their pond often looking at the other pond going, why? I don't know, how do I get there? So it's like no one's ever like entirely happy, but there is a snobbery of like, well, the more people who come to this pond, therefore is this pond really, that good. Whereas actually it's like that's, that is, if that's your authentic voice, then yeah. To change it would be even weirder. And I think in Britain it's sort of doubly so,

you know, because we have class system. So we therefore have class system of books. We have high, middle, low books. We have high, middle low, uh, chemists. Chemists. Who knew that boots was middle class? But there you go. Yeah. Well, I think there's an Ania Hinmarsh boots, isn't there somewhere in, I don't know. I'm going. I'm going now. There is. But yeah, no. So I think, because I'm, I'm quite an annoying person, and I'm quite sort of like trying to sort of like rebel against myself even sometimes.

So I almost am drawn to unfashionable things sometimes, like stubbornly. Because I recognize certainly like when I was a young man and I did a MA in literature and you're sort of encouraged to think a certain type of thing is literature. taught to be suspicious of story, happy endings. This is what they teach you at NMA? Subconsciously, I feel like, you know, well, that's how I sort of took it when you, when you sort of like look at the reading list and if you study a lot of like French critical theory and you just talk to sort of like be suspicious of meaning.

And I think a lot of my favourite sort of old books are from before that area, from sort of like before modernism. So like, you know, you've got Count of Monte Cristo, you've got the sort of Sherlock Holmes, you've got, there was something in sort of late 19th century fiction, which was really well-written stuff, but it wasn't trying to break everything down. Yeah, it was trying to give a story,

a really strong story. And I suppose it was before we had Freud and before we sort of started to look at psychology in a different way. But I really like that. kind of like simplicity, I suppose. You know, and we're all like it. Not everyone's like it in music, but I mean, you know,

most musicians would be very happy to have written here there and everywhere or something that's so simple. Perfect. Yeah, in books sometimes. Yeah, that's interesting, isn't it? I think maybe a few snobs have given lots of people a bad name

because I think, exactly as you're describing, and I'm not musically literate, but the Beatles are relatively simple. musically, but everyone admires them as being incredible musicians. But they're also because they're simple that perhaps easy to criticise or something. But the whole other level of modernism was just to think about things a little more deeply because people had maybe the luxury of time to be able to do so.

It wasn't because in the spare time they were reading books like that. They were going back to great novels and great storytelling, I think. As in, I think the two things coexist. You wouldn't just want Mrs. Dalloway every day. No, but yeah, you're glad it exists. but you can go there. And if you've sort of like known depression or something, you'd like to see that sort of experience reflected back, definitely.

I think I try, even though I'm probably seen as more commercial than literary, I think my influences are kind of from everywhere, really. Yeah. But I think that's, I mean, again, that's when we come back to like the ratings of books as well. It's like that's not what art is for. It's not like, oh, there's the best. And therefore, if you, at that, you know, no one wants to eat it, 12-course tasting menu every day either.

Like, it's that thing of like, life is lots of different things. And there is depression and death and sadness. And there is the other stuff. And I feel like, if a book makes you happy, it makes you happy. I think there's, you enjoyed reading it. There's an inverse of this where we'd be talking to an author who goes, I don't care about those other books, people buy mine. Like, that is winning.

Yeah. Yeah. And also. You've won. Congratulations. Yeah. Well, I mean, and I was definitely, like, Like, I feel like I did my time.

I mean, this is like my 25th. Yeah. Wow. And like... Congratulations. That's such a huge achievement. Just writing books. I mean, I've written some very short ones.

You like your short chapters. Reasons. Reasons say life's like a pamphlet. You know, it's basically... Well, there's so few. That's a good point. You could do the introduction. Also, you've done...

Which I think is really interesting. Obviously, you've done... kids and adults, which is, again, not everyone manages to cross the heart successfully and then cross back, which again, I think is power to write. Yeah, but I actually, I mean, I know you write for kids as well, and so you might agree with this, but I think I've learned more writing for kids in some ways. I think, and I'm not just saying this to be so, like patronised, I genuinely believe children are better readers in some ways in the sense of imagination, but better. They're not necessarily believing in unicorns, but they'll go with the danger.

Whereas if you're writing sort of fantasy for adults, you have to hold their hands so much to make the fantasy believable. You can't just rush into the... I think they also sniff bad stories really quickly. So the moment something's off, they're like, why has she gone there? And I think adult readers tend to be like,

well, I'm sure they'll explain to me why that person. Whereas, I mean, my daughter especially is just like, well, I don't believe it. And like books by, you know, like famous books, she just will just chuck them across the room. boring.

Maybe that's why they seem more better readers because they are reading for pleasure and pleasure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And if there isn't pleasure, then it's not working and there's something really honest about that. Yeah, but it's not doing something like, it's not like, oh, I'm intrigued or I'm afraid or I'm laughing. They want some reaction.

And they don't get it quite quickly. They're like, well, what? We'll just read another one. And they also have no concept of like, this is a good book. You know, they just go, I like that one. And they seem much less. bothered by other, like, oh, my friend like that one. They're like, oh, you know, Eva like that one, but I was stupid.

Like, they just, it's very, yeah, it's much clearer. And that's why I feel like, like, something like Winnie the Pooh still stands a test of time, because you're straight in there, straight in with dialogue, straight in with the stories, straight in with the missing movie. Can I disagree with you on Winnie the Pooh? Because the meta bit, there's that bit where they're talking about reading the book to someone else. Do you remember this? I tried to read it recently.

In the Winnie the Pooh. Yeah. It starts with him saying this, I'm reading to a child, and I'm reading you a story about Winnie the Pooh and the child's like, are you? And then the writer says, yes, I am. Let me tell you, once you get past that, you hit some stories. Yeah, that's what I do. That goes to like number five and just start that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's talking to a child about the fact that he is going to write, yeah. Still not as hard as Winding the Willows. I just tried to do that recently. You might as well be reading Ulysses.

I would say Winding the Willows is the most, I was like, wow, what? Like neither child knew what, they're like, what's happening? What's going on? Really. And all you remember as a kid is like pooh-pooh, Toad is naughty. But yeah, it's really deep and confusing. Yeah, I'd say it's definitely got that like postmodernism feel about it. I'm reading Ulysses at the moment. Yeah, Sarah, do you? Are you properly in it past page 30? Yes. And unfortunately, I've discovered it's my favourite thing everyone. I think it's the only book I'm ever going to read. So I've gone, I mean, I'm in, I'm in now. And that's the problem is once you realize once you're in, you're in. It's not an accident what he did. Yeah. You're in real trouble.

I love Ulysses, but I must admit, I've never chronologically read it. I've just sort of like gone into it. Which you can, and that's allowed. Or you could just read one because each chapter's written separately in a different style. The narrator changes based on who he's narrating. Sorry, I've got a burst into tears. You're allowed to read it however you want to. Or just read about people reading it.

Or listen to it. There's an amazing adept. One of our listeners says us. Of course. From 1988, it's Irish men. So they understand the jokes and they, understand the slang and it just makes it make sense. It's on RTE.

So thank you. Someone called Damien. Yeah, someone sent it in. Who I've now recommended to so many people. There's a whole group of Joyce readers in Australia who are now listening to that. Oh, thank you to our listener who emailed you on Instagram to say, yeah. I think Sarah would enjoy this Irish adaptation of it. It's really helpful.

But isn't that interesting though? Because again, we're just talking about the power of books. Yes. And books are different points in your life. Because I could have forced on with that at 24 and understood none of it and stared at all of it. Yes. I think like James Joyce, like, you know, even though he's seen as like writing massive stuff, he's also like sentences are amazing as well. And also he's obsessed with farts. It's a book about farts. It's a man farting around Dublin. The thing about these great like works of art is we like, we've been to, we, for the pocket I've been to like books that you are like, oh fuck, I should read that.

And then when you do get into the joy of falling into something, which I think is what like, yeah, our character will be. has lost and I think people who read your books, you know, are people who like books and will relate to that a lot of like when your life is stressful and you lose that. That's a, it's a big sign of how much books do for us. Exactly. Yeah, closing off a vulnerability. The reason we call this The Weirdo's Book Club is like lots and lots of people who love reading.

We were unhappy young people who had books and books were the place where you escaped to. And you always felt social, you always felt understood, and you always were held in different worlds. And how lucky are to have that. And that's what Wilbur has. And then I think sometimes you can close off as an adult from that vulnerable, you know, when I say skinny lad, I don't mean me in Carriac. But you do also have to be receptive to thinking about other people to read,

because that's the whole point. You're spending time in someone else's mind. You're escaping your own. That's true. And I think that's a big myth and cliche about readers and writers. is that with this introverted, antisocial kind of unhappy people. I mean, can be. But I think reading is like a deep socialising.

It's like you're socialising at such a different level. It's not socialising with a glass of warm white wine at a party, but it's socialising because you're having a kind of conversation. The person you're talking to or listening to might be dead, but you're exchanging minds. And you're getting something out of that book that no one else, will be quite getting in the way that you're getting. So I think that's amazing.

And when you said about books being there for your right time in life, I mean, the patch I went away from books was during illness, like in my 20s with depression. And when I sort of like came back and was living at my mom and dad's house, obviously the books on my shelves were children's books because it was my childhood bedroom. So I was rereading. What got me back into books was rereading.

At time, I couldn't even like watch TV. without having a panic attack because everything was like overstimulating couldn't listen to the radio couldn't do anything books were like the quietest easiest most comforting way for me to sort of like build my mind back again that's amazing isn't it that like books are like you said they're such a loud conversation but it's such a quiet way of having that

conversation yes and that even at your like lowest point a book was able to be like hi I'm I can be here with you that's I mean I've got quite a big question for you because I I think about death a lot. And much more since I had children, ironically. I think about death all the time. And I really felt something about someone dying

and then having to watch their life at different speeds, it felt to me like sometimes to appreciate or to make the right decisions or to force yourself not to take things for granted. Thinking about death is actually very healthy. Having a little bit of death. Don't need to talk to me if I know I don't. But in your mind at all times,

it does help you go, that person won't be there tomorrow. They will be dead one day. We'll all be dead one day. I don't know how people. Do it, say it, be better, apologize, all those things. And we're famously say bad at it. You know, like, Mexico has a whole day

where we just like celebrate it and get drunk and think about it. And we are so bad at it. And you're exactly right. I feel like, and especially like after sort of like suicide attempt at 24 and then after that for a little while, I just thought how ridiculous is it? How hilariously ridiculous that we have all these finite little worries about car keys or emails and then you know when there's this big macro thing which we don't ever talk about

and I feel like books are the way we can legitimately speed through a life yeah speed through a life and get that perspective because I think there's a great book it looks incredibly cheesy from the cover but the five regrets of the dying by Bronny Weir who was a palliative care nurse and she spent a lot of time in hospices researching and talking to people and the five regrets of dying I can't remember exactly, but it was basically work-related. Yeah, so it's too much time spent working, that kind of thing. Yeah, it's like too much time working, not a lot of time saying I love you, basically. Yeah, and we kind of know it, as soon as you draw any attention to it.

But we don't, you know, we're encouraged not to. You know, our fears about existential things just become turned into industries. So you have the anti-aging industry because we don't want to think about death. And, you know, so it's always a way to sort of commercialise everything. we don't actually think or engage with things. Like it would probably be cheaper and healthier instead of like the anti-aging industry to actually just sit down, read novels and just sort of think about.

I think that about the whole thing about, you know, the cosmetic stuff and all the things to do to look younger. It's much cheaper and easier to just go, that's what I look like now. It's terrible. Except to move on. That's much easier than fighting something you're going to lose. Also, sadly...

Walk out of super drug. Yeah. Listen, have you had a boot? Also, sadly, Bonnie Weir's book would just be now, I was on my phone too much. Yeah. Every single person in the death. Our generation would just be like, I was on my phone too much. What the fuck was I looking at?

But before, it was just like, I was at work too much. And now I'm on my phone too much. And I was at work too much. Yeah, I was at work on my phone. My children are at the window weeping. I was like, hang on, I've just got to finish the internet. And I'll be there. I look up for five seconds and take a picture of my favorite.

I'll put it back on the book. When you were writing this, so Wilbert is on the train and he's looking back for his life. Did you look back for your life? Did you kind of go there and be like, what were the bits my train would slow down at? Yeah. I mean, but there's a lot of my parents in this book because my parents were in Sheffield in the 1960s. And so a lot of this book, as you know, sat in Sheffield and set in Sheffield in the past. And so one of the things, and I was born in Sheffield, but I didn't grow up in Sheffield. I grew up in New Hampshire. But we were always in Sheffield. So my parents spoke about Sheffield, the way people talk about

swinging London. You know, they talk about it. It was art school and Rolling Stones concerts. And Malcolm X came to visit. And it's like it's not what people, not what you hear of a sort of northern town in the 60s. I thought that with the Rolling Stone. I was like, well, that must have happened. Because you write this scene where there's a Rolling Stones concert in Sheffield.

And I was like, that must have happened. I have no knowledge of that at all. In the book, it happens in July, 1964. But it actually happens in February, 1960. Because you will get letters. You're going to get them out from Rolling Stones. music. So, yeah, I figured that must have been a true thing, which, yeah, it's not what

you traditionally think of Sheffield as being... I mean, that's what I loved about this, like research and social history. Like, because the Sheffield City Hall has literally everything that's gone on there since 1952 or anything. So you just like came through. It's an amazing cultural place now. Yeah. Yeah.

It's got everything, Sheffield. Well, exactly. And you think just music alone, what's come out of Sheffield, I feel like, you know, Liverpool, Manchester obviously get there. but Sheffield for a city of under half a million people. So have Arctic Monkeys, Pulp, Human League, Heaven 17. Self-esteem? Self-esteem.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's incredible. Yeah, amazing. I was going to say, Sheffield features heavily on this. And it's interesting, you say, your parents, because I was thinking... Death Leopard. Never forget, Def Leopard. Lou Sanders, do you know, Lou Sanders?

She's a comic, and she was in a tribute band before she was a comedian called Jeff Leopard. That's fantastic. That's excellent. And why did she leave? No, they got band. Oh. Yeah, they got band from festivals. Yes, I think I know.

Oh, wow. I think it was a lot more stajaving than it was performing. The other bands complained they were too noisy. They were proper punk, yeah. But yeah, I was thinking when you, because the character is, his father dies in the war. And when he was, when he was a baby, yeah. And so I was thinking, okay, well, that's not Matt's time time. So, yeah, it's interesting.

You're saying it's about your parents. Like, are your parents supposed to live? Yes. Have they read it? What do they feel about your take on it? My dad, he doesn't normally say much about my books. He cried. He cried at him.

So I was like, oh, yeah. So he must have seen a lot of, yeah. I mean, he's very different to Wilbur. My dad was sort of like, if anything, he was sort of like moved. My dad was quite posh when he was, you know, growing up. He went to boarding school and everything. Then he had a bit of a breakdown at Oxford and left to go to Sheffield to do architecture, which was what he really wanted to do.

And he was quite sort of. socialist and never wanted me to go to sort of like posh school or anything. So he wanted a very different life to what he'd had. So he's kind of like moving in the opposite direction to Wilbur. But yeah, he saw a lot, I think, of their relationship in Sheffield. Do you think there will be, I mean, this is an impossible question, but like, will there be another midnight book? Well, I mean, three is a nice number.

V is a nice number, yeah, looks nice on a bookshelf. I haven't, I mean, there was, like, Before I wrote this, I was thinking more straightforwardly about a sequel to the Midnight Library, which would be Nora and Mrs. Alm. But it would be sort of reverse where Mrs. Elm is about her life and the difference she's made to other people. And Nora would be her guide. So that would have been more of a straightforward sequel.

So I might go back to that. I don't know, but it's probably not going to be the next book. Just a book I thought of, it's not similar to your book, but I did want to ask you, have you ever read Time Quake by Kurt Vonnegut? Do you know what that's about? No, I have read Kurt Vonnegut, but not time quake. So I remember nothing about what happened in it, apart from there's a time quake,

and everyone in the world goes back 10 years, and they're living their life again with a memory, but they can't change a single thing. So they say the thing they said last time, but now knowing a different ending. So people living in houses with people who, they know, die in nine years, and just seeing that it's so much about taking things for granted

and it's impossible to change once you've done it. The only thing they can change is after the 10 years. So they're all living for this point where all of a sudden they've got autonomy again and free will. Oh, that's terrific. They're trapped in their actions that they did before. They're reliving all of it through their eyes. Everyone's just gone back 10 years

and then they all think they're going to be really different after the 10 years of up because they've lived it and they've very quickly become exactly the same. Yeah. Well, that is a bit like the first half of the book where he's sort of like a ghost, but he can't interact with it. Yeah. And that's the frustration that builds.

And yeah, at the start, maybe I'm just writing that. Maybe I'm just writing the world's most depressing book. I feel like it's depressing for the reader because the reader can change things. That's what I think is lovely about someone else is going through it. You know, he's Wilbur, even if he's sad about doing, he's safe.

Yeah, and also he's a really human character and his choices are never like, why did you do that? His choices are always like, yeah, of course you did. Of course you did that. That's what seemed obvious to do. and I think there's a kindness to your books which is we are all living our best.

I'll try, like not living our best lives, but all trying our best most of the time. Within what we've given. What we know, yeah. And it's like, you know, we can find out like, oh, your phone's severely addictive, guys. And we weren't really told, so we were just doing our best. And I think that's what's so lovely about this book

is this lovely train, literal journey you go on on the train with Wilbur and reading the book that, you know, everyone is just trying to make the best decisions they can and sometimes they're wrong. Yeah. Sometimes they're right. Yeah, exactly. I think so.

And I think like the internet like flattens context, doesn't it, completely? And books can give that back. You can actually see, like, you can sympathise with, in a novel, with a character doing a bad or stupid thing. He's not a bad person. In a way, you can't on X. Yeah, you know what I mean? Or the internet world.

So novels are where we can reclaim a bit of empathy and compassion. It's such a beautiful book. Thank you. And it's coming out on the 21st of May the day before my birthday. Yes, I've got that. Very auspicious. Oh, wow. That's soon.

It's a Cuspian tourist Gemini. Happy birthday. Happy birthday to your book. Thank you for listening to The Weirdo's Book Club. The Midnight Train is out now. And my kids' book, Where Did She Go? A Picture Book About Grief is also available in paperback now. We have some live events.

coming up. We have Sheffield, the Crosswires Festival. Sheffield! Fifth of July. And we have the Edinburgh Festival on the 17th of August. There'll be live podcast records with extra special guests. Yes, we're at the Book Festival in Edinburgh. Come and join us. And if you want to find out more about what we're going to be discussing, head to Instagram at Sarah and Carriad's Weirdo's Book Club. And please join us on Patreon. We're really trying to make an effort to put more stuff on there.

We're actually giving away a signed copy of Matt Haig's book that we remembered to get done today. Yeah, we got him to sign it and it's a proof copy. and it's super special and we'll give that away if you head to the Patreon. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you.