Sara & Cariad's Weirdos Book Club - The Pumpkin Eater by Penelope Mortimer

Episode Date: September 7, 2023

This week's book guest is The Pumpkin Eater by Penelope Mortimer.In this episode Sara and Cariad discuss marriage, Just Seventeen, having a breakdown in Harrods and more! Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you!Trigger warning: In this episode there are references to abortion, infertility, rape and paedophilia. The Pumpkin Eater by Penelope Mortimer is available to buy here or on Apple Books here.Sara’s debut novel Weirdo is published by Faber & Faber and is available to pre-order here.Cariad’s book You Are Not Alone is published by Bloomsbury and is available to buy here.Follow Sara & Cariad’s Weirdos Book Club on Instagram @saraandcariadsweirdosbookclub and Twitter @weirdosbookclub Recorded by Aniya Das and edited by Naomi Parnell for Plosive.Artwork by Welcome Studio.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Sarah Pasco. Hello, I'm Carriad Lloyd. And we're weird about books. We love to read. We read too much. We talk too much. About the too much that we've read. Which is why we've created the Weirdo's Book Club.

Join us. A space for the lonely outsider to feel accepted and appreciated. A place for the person who'd love to be in a real book club, but doesn't like wine or nibbles. Or being around other people. Is that you? Join us. Check out our Instagram at Sarah and Carriad's Weirdos Book Club for the upcoming books we're going to be discussing. You can read along and share your opinions.

Or just skulk around in your raincoat like the weirdo you are. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you. This week's book guest on The Weirdo's Book Club is The Pumpkin Eater by Penelope Mortimer. A slim tome, The Pumpkin Eater, is the tragic comic story of Jo. A woman on her fourth husband and mother to a great number of children. Her unhappiness is both idiosyncratic and familiar. What qualifies it for the Weirdo Book Club?

Well, it's about a woman with quothed husband. A lot of children who has a breakdown in Harrod. We've all been there. In this episode, we will be discussing. Unhappy women. Marriage. Children. Abortion.

Racism in the past. Infidelity. Just 17. Schrodinger being a sex offender. And whether or not the author is related to Emily Mortimer. Spoiler. She isn't. The pumpkin eater.

Nom, num, num, num, num, num, num, num, num, num, num. Yeah, exactly. Numb, num, num, pumpkin. That's the audiobook. I have something to tell you about sound effects, but not just yet. Okay. I thought we could start by introducing this book. Imagine like this book was coming

to meet your friends. You do it. You introduce it to me. Okay. Okay. My friend's coming. Oh my God. Why? You always invite people without telling me. She's called the pumpkin eater. You'll feel bad for saying that. She's really lonely. And she's quite sad. And actually, I don't think her life has been going great. She sounds like a real downer. I think she's made some bad decisions. But I don't think she's a bad person. I think actually once you meet her. I've met her. I have met her actually. I met her the other day. And I agree with you. She's not a bad person. No.

But she has made some stupid decisions. Yeah. But you have quite a lot in common with her. Oh, because you love pumpkins. I do love pumpkins. Because she's married to a man who writes movies, just like you are. Yeah, but I don't have six children. Do you think she has six children?

She does have six children. I thought it was an unnumbered amount of children. Well, this is me being sneaky because it's very much based. The guest book is very much based on the real writer, Penelope Mortimer, who did have children. Oh, did she? Yes. I see. So I suspect, in my head it was six because she had six. Oh, okay. So I do like death of the author where I, um, I try and consider a work separate from their creator. I refuse to separate art from the artist, so. I want you to know something about her, Penelope Mortimer. Right. Virgo. Oh. Are we going to do this for all authors?

Yes. I really want us to have listeners who respect us. And I feel like if, in the first two minutes, Why are you denying your truth? I'm not denying my truth. I'm not denying my truth. I'm just saying sometimes people pretend to be slightly different to they are. Oh, I see. You think people, you pretend to be much more cynical and rational, but in real life, there's a bit more there. Not cynical rational, but I wouldn't say, hey, you should read this.

The Author is Adoras. So this, Philemopi Mortimer's The Pumpkin Eater was published in 1962. That's important. Okay. What's really important also, because I suggested we read this. Yeah. I read it a few years ago. really enjoyed it. And I have to start the whole episode with an apology. Yeah. Because of the racism.

Yes. We should definitely talk about racism. And the abelism and the homophobia. And all of those things are in there, in that very lazy way that people were. Well, linguistically, lazily racist. It's shocking when it pops up. It is shocking. Yeah. Yeah. It is shocking. There's a couple of actually genuine. And I wanted to say that at the beginning, as soon as we'd said the star sign of the writer, I wanted to clarify. Um, yeah, for anyone who going away like, oh, that sounded like a good book, oh, crack. I thought you, because I thought the same thing because the racism is like, it's near the beginning. And we should add, it was made into a film. Yeah. Where they actually, they, it's almost word for word a lot of the film, but they, they took out

that, which I thought was interesting. I was going to ask you about this. Yes, do. Because I, I don't know what my opinion is. And I think both opinions are right. Some people think you update things, you take those phrases out. Oh, they made the film in 1964. No, I mean now. So this one was published in 2013. I think it's strange to have a book with the avert racism that it has. And on the front cover is the Edna O'Brien quote, which is from the 60s saying almost every woman I think of will want to read this book.

And within about five pages, there's some language that's really shocking. And I thought it's weird not to have that mentioned anywhere in the foreword. There are some people who say, well, you're just, I'm just editing out, making writers look better than they are. You don't take it out, but you can mention. like I genuinely was like, bloody hell. Yes. Yeah. And then I closed it and thought,

what a awful thing to put in the font. Almost every woman I think would want to. I was like, certain women, definitely don't want to read this book. White is in brackets. Yeah. And that quote, Rich white women in brackets. To be fair, the Edna O'Brien quote is from 1962

when it was first published and it was a big success. So I understand where they put that. But also, I agreed. People in the 60s, white people wouldn't have found those phrases shocking. They probably would have used those phrases. But then if you're republishing this as a Penguin Modern Classic. Yeah.

I know, it's strange. This is what I was going to say to you, and it leads to the sound effects. Okay. You haven't talked about this book at all yet. So you know that they've edited Roald Dahl to update them. Yes, yes. Well, I went to record one of the audio books for them, the Twits. And I felt really difficult about it.

Well, you've recorded the edited ones. Everyone said, shame on you for recording the edited. Yeah, but I was like, no, I really want to do it because it's in a set with, like, Ramesh and Acaster and Tim Kee. I like that. You're all going down. Really cool people. David Tenant's done one. Okay.

Sanjiv Bhaskar. So it's a really cool group. able to be in. Lolly Adafopo has done one. And the Twits is a really scary, great book. I love the Twits. And I did think, oh God, you know, if you ever post this on Instagram, oh, hey, I read an audio book for children, people will be like, that's not the real version, why you such a snowflake.

But what I didn't realize when I went to do the audio book is I had to do all the sound effects. Oh, do you have to do the twit sound effects? Yeah. So first of all at the beginning, we were like laughing because it was like a frog snoring, and I was like, oh, I can add this to my CV. But by the end, it was like four monkeys on top of each other in descending size and a bird warning everyone.

like slopping glue and a man eating out of his beard. Yeah, the beard, there's a lot of eating with that beard, Mr. Twirp. I had to do all of the sounds of the different dishes. And they were like, okay, now ketchup and now spinach. And I forgot all the voices that I had did for people at the beginning. Oh, yeah, you got a member of the voices. There were so many characters. You got writing down.

Well, I did it write down. But to go back to my point, there are people who think, even if something would now be considered rude, offensive, racist, it was that at the time. It should still exist to prove. Otherwise, just sort of editing history, though it wasn't that bad when it was. And the language, it did, it's only two instances, I think, in the book of actual, full-on racist language.

There's other stuff. There's two racist sentences. Yeah, there's two absolutely like, whoa, but... But then there was an ablest one and a homophobic one in the similar vein of, like, a common saying. Yes, like, people would just say that. The reason I'm saying is not like... There's only two. What I mean is, please, I think the whole book is about the book is very much not about that.

And if you read the book, you'd be like, wow, they're dedicating a lot of times. No one's reading this book now. It's a Virgo who's racist. I'd be surprised really was listening to the podcast, but anyway. It was turned into a film in 1964 and Anne Bankroft played Joe, the main character in the film, and was nominated for an Oscar for her performance. So it was a big hit. Big hit, but do you know what my problem is?

Sure. Screenplay was written by a man. He was written by Harold Pinter. Now, interesting fact about that. He almost basically takes word for word because she's so, Penelope Morton is so good at dialogue. Yeah. It's word for word a lot of it. And he rejigs.

He shapes it, I'd be fair. And he does a good job. The script is really good. But her voice is very clear in it. Yes. And apparently she was very happy that he did it as well at the time. So I felt similar to you. I was like, oh.

And it's still very much of a man's lens because it's 1964. And, you know, they base it. And Bankroft won for staring into a camera and, like, having a beautiful tear around down her face. It's very 1960s woman goes mad. Do you know what I mean? Like she looks stunning. Did you prefer the film to the book?

It's different, different vibes. It's not like I don't love you. It's just this is a different expression. The book, the writing is much better and it's more complex and it's more nuanced. The film is, as films are, you know, is telling a simpler story. And it's really, the film is really of its time. So it's like, like, the way they're acting. And there's a point where he like spikes open a can of beer, sprays it over and hands it

the pregnant Joe and she like downs it really happily as she'd like to cigarette. So there's definitely like of its time moments. But I think the book, despite us saying about this, the racist, ablest, homophobic moments, I think the book speaks to you more as a modern, like you can hear Joe as a woman who's unhappy in a marriage or finding it difficult to know what to do with her life and having been a mother. They weren't a 60s phenomenon. Well, no, it's the way they tell it. It's very 60s. You know, it's very beautiful and arch and she just stares blankly at people as they have a party and then there's things like,

did you love her? I don't know, did you? Oh, stop it, darling. Sit down. Oh, it's just that. So that's the thing, because when you read it in your head, you're doing the voices. Yeah. So I'm not doing 60's voices. Well, I wasn't until I watched the film. Oh, yeah, but yeah. You're obviously doing the sound effects as you. They have a beer. What do you think of the representation

of motherhood? In the book, The Pumpkin Eater. That's a big question. There's a bit that I think is terrifyingly depressing. That's the one thing I'd say about this book. I wasn't happy after I read it. Did you feel like that? When I first read it, which I told you in the car on the way here, I misremembered.

So I remember this book taking place inside a pumpkin. It was a woman with loads of children and she lived in this massive pumpkin. So it was sort of magic realism. Yep. It's not absolutely not what this book is about. And then at the beginning, I started reading this and it had the rhyme of the pumpkin eater. Yes, it's based on the rhyme. Peter, Peter, Pumpkin Eater had a wife and couldn't keep her.

and then there's all of these Reddit threads saying that it's about a man who murders his wife and keeps her body in a pumpkin, which I think he's leaping. What? Are they talking about a different film? No, not a film, not a book. The Rhyme. Those four lines of rhyme. I was like, that's not happening this book. Yes, I see.

Oh, that's people desperate for true crime, if you ask me. I think it is. It's just a nursery rhyme. Yeah, it's just a silly rhyme, isn't it? It's a good book. I enjoyed it. End of podcast. But I did find it bleak because it's about someone who,

who's really struggling. Because it's such an excessive amount of children that when she wants another child that's such a, a scene as such a negative thing. I think it's 10. It's seen as an obsession. Well, because my dad's one of nine and I kept thinking about that.

My nanny Babs, who had nine children, the thing that she hated most in Dagenham is that people at a bus stop when they saw whoever kids would go, can't afford a telly, like that. And that's like an Essex way of going, you have sex too much. Yeah.

Just watch telly. Go to radio rentals, calm town. Rent a telly. Yeah. In real life, so I just get fat on in real life. She had six, but she had one, the seventh was a miscarriage. And she was pregnant with the eighth when she did what happens in the book.

So that's the real story that is based on. I see. I want to read this horrible, horrible bit. Yeah, okay. possibly. And they're having this awful conversation where it's like, is Philpott giving to fainting much? Fainting.

The children said, well, what did they say? They said she fainted yesterday. Oh, well, perhaps she did. They said you were there that you caught her. Caught her when she fainted. Yes. Why should I catch her when she faint? I don't know.

I don't know. I don't remember. It's like this horrible, like, and this is the paragraph that I actually sent to another mum who writes because I thought it was so depressing. The Incessant Company of Children leads to this kind of dialogue. It was our mother tongue, incomprehensible to most adults, and in it we carried on the complex, subtle and occasional tragic conversations

which are the last resort of communication between men and women. Oh, yeah. That's what it's like to try and talk to someone you used to have conversation with, and there's just children so you don't, you just go around in a circle. And also yesterday it was a long time ago. Why are you asking me? I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know. this, yeah. And then he said, there's no need to shout. Shout, my God, it's not me who's shouting. It's just like, oh. He has, but it's also to do with that guy, Jake. So Jake is our husband.

Jake is the filmmaker husband, because when she's talking to him, she's asking for some definite details for infidelities later on. She's saying, well, you were visiting me. Did you have a hotel nearby? Did you meet her at a hotel? They let you do hotels by the hour?

And he's like, well, probably I can't remember. I don't know. Anyway, it didn't happen. Oh, that's the way that he phrases things. And that's what I mean, you really see that in the film of like the kind of 1960s man when she's just like, can you just tell me if you step with someone? He's like, maybe I did. And she's like, did you? Yes. Did you?

No. Why do you care? And you're like, how can any woman have existed in that time where he's like, he just says to it doesn't matter? But I think, I don't think that is of that time. Do you think? I think that's liars in general. Oh, maybe. Especially liars that you love and want to believe and know you want to believe them.

I think that's a really, really difficult. Very Lorraine now. And I like to like the liars you love. We'll be talking about the liars you love today. Ring in. For our next segment, we'll be joined by Carriad Lloyd. Now, Carriad. I can tell you what Star Sign you are within one to six guesses.

So I thought her version of motherhood, which is what your original question was very bleak. But we are dealing with a character at a time who's not happy. And she's definitely not. There's a definite choice to not show joy or connection with her children. Yes. So motherhood is really bleak if you take out all of the love and joy. Well, again, it's a sexy thing, as we mentioned but didn't go into, properly. Like her children, the oldest children are sent away to boarding school against her

wishes and that's decided by her husband and her dad in a conversation in front of her where she says, I don't want that to happen. They say, oh well, shh, basically. One of the interesting things in the biography is it says that this is a miserable woman who has this safety net of money. He used a different word that's a safety net, but actually I thought the opposite. I thought she doesn't have the safety net of money because she personally has no money. Men can make her decisions. The reason the children are sent away is for, financial. The reason it's her dad's input is because her dad is going to be paying for the school. A woman without money is completely disenfranchised. She doesn't

have any power over her life. Well, yeah, it's interesting. We should call this. It's interesting. Because the only power she has is whether to get pregnant. So she gets pregnant again for the eighth time and her husband, we should say these are all from different men. This is from the most recent husband and is not happy that she's pregnant at all. And that's the only sort of agency she has, isn't it? And he says to her, are you all right before they have sex? And she says, you're all sorted, aren't you? You're all sorted, yeah. And she had that amazing phrase about like, the dream, I know, it was gorgeous, yeah. It's easy to fly away when you don't have wings or something like that. It's really wonderful. And I didn't even really understand it. I didn't know if that

phrase was like, oh, because the sex is so good that she's now dreaming. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because also, I don't know if it is something she has agency over. I think she's blamed for it. I guess it's the only time you see her have any agency in choice. Do you know what she chooses to get pregnant? But two people have sex. Yeah, true. But she very much seems like she knows she'll get pregnant. I mean, she has done it quite a bit, hasn't she?

How do you sound? Just like the men in the book? It does seem like, oh, do you think she didn't want to get pregnant? I think ovulation is hidden and a lot of guesswork. Oh, but she was said, she says that bit, like, I decided to be nice. And she says, have a party, have your friends at him, because she's like, we're going to have sex tonight because I'm going to get pregnant. Oh, did you think?

Yeah. Is that sort of conniving? Not conniving. in that she wants another child and she thinks that if she gets pregnant for the eighth time he'll be all right with it once it's here. I think she's much more confused. I read her as much more confused

that she doesn't know if she wants to have another child or not. It doesn't seem to make any sense to her, but she also doesn't know what else to do. Yeah, I agree with that. I'm not saying, I don't mean it conniving, but I think there is, she makes that agency choice to have, like, when he says, are you all right, she's like, yep, and the words, to me,

was hinting like, yeah, I sort of hope I'd get pregnant. Okay. And she's not devastated when it happens either. No. No. And she hopes that he will be happy eventually. Yeah, she wants to keep it. I thought the saddest thing in terms of representations of motherhood was when she receives a letter. Yes. From another mother, a mother with three children who's deeply unhappy and is asking for advice

and what to do with that unhappiness because she seems so happy. Exactly. And we've just been through this huge journey knowing exactly how unhappy she is, but also how does she get out of it? What advice would you give her? She's already made this massive decision that can't be reversed. I thought that was really, really sad. Yeah, that was incredibly sad.

And she has that beautiful line, because the letter's been thrown away, but she looks towards the bin and the one person who understands her. Is in the bin. Yeah. And that woman doesn't know that that's what she gave her. Was it an acknowledgement of other women feel like you do? My next question for you then. How many children is enough?

Or how many children is too many? Would you ever judge another family or another woman? No, I'd only think hats off, don't my chapeau. if you can cope with more than two, because I can't cope with two. Like, I mentally can't do it. Yeah. And I've got two. I can't cope.

But is where, and it's quite sort of underplayed in this, but the staff does make a difference. Oh, she's got fucking loads of staff. She's got nurses and nannies and cooks and some people in the public eye, that's what you find. Which has happened. So Jake, who is her fourth husband, I think at this point, has become more successful. So they have, but she had the load of kids before that. And that's why they now have nannies and a big house and they're building another house in the countryside. and they're going to move there and everything's going to be wonderful eventually.

And so, yeah, if you've got nannies and help and, like, because she does have a breakdown in Harrods because she's got nothing to do that day. Which is really funny. He's annoyed that it happened in Harrods. Yeah. Yeah. Which is based on a real incident that happened to Plenalip from Mortimer. What happened?

Yeah, she was wandering around Harrod's, feeling bits of material, crying. And then she wrote in her diary that day, like, awful day, you know, da-da, da. And then went back. and wrote down next to it, I don't know, six months later, I wrote down next to it, Pumpkin Eater. Oh. And then that's where the book began. So it's that happened to in the 50s.

I had a very similar experience. I think it was just as we were starting to do IVF. And they always tell you to eat bloody pineapple when you're trying to get pregnant. And I was walking through the shop with a pineapple. So my breakdown was in Tesco's. But I was holding this pineapple. You were a gemina.

And I just kept imagining people looking like, oh, she's trying with the pineapple. Yeah, because you said this bit, I had no idea. You were like, oh, because you know, everyone knows about the pineapple. Like, I have, that's, you know, I do. There's all this stuff, which actually I think is from the forums in infacility. So people always do, like, icons of pineapples.

There's just, there's lots of stuff, which I realise now is shorthand for people who've been going through it for a very long time. And it's what, you know, these tiny straw, especially because it's affordable. You know, anyone can have some pineapple. But you do. It's not a guava. I was walking around this, like, full pineapple. And then just started to feel so sorry for myself. And also feeling that everyone else could see, like, oh, Mrs. Pineapple.

And then I went, I haven't wrote my diary, Mrs. Mrs. Pina. And that is the title of your next novel. And I'll be played by Anne Bancroft. Oh, dear. I think she's dead. Can I tell you another fact? Oh, please.

In real life, she was married to a journalist, Charles Dimont. And then the day the divorce got finalised, she married John Mortimer, the very famous writer, John Mortimer. Although the actress Emily Mortimer is not related to her. No. That is John Mortimer's second wife, who was also called Penelope. And they were known as Pellope 1 and Penelope 2. And people used to mistake her for Penelope 2 all the time. She never really recovered from this marriage with John Mortimer.

And this book is dedicated to John, and Jake is basically John. Oh, that's a lot to take in, isn't it? That's some olden days gossip right there. Yeah, that's good. I thought that was very good. So, and that, obviously, and the story, what happens in the story in this book, is what happened to her, that she was pregnant with her eighth child. And John Mortimer, the writer wrote Rompuyall, Bailey, said to her, I think you should have an abortion. I think while you're there, you should have a hysterectomy. And then she found out, after she'd had it, he was having an affair.

with the actress Wendy Craig. From Estenders. Who do I mean? No, you're thinking the other one. Wendy Craig was in butterflies. Oh, I'm thinking of Wendy Richards? No, Wendy. She's got blonde hair and she said he's dend.

I know what you mean? Pauline, Pauline. Molly Fowler? Yeah. That's not Wendy Craig, is it? Yeah. No. Wendy Richard.

Maybe I just never knew her surname. I just knew as Wendy. Wendy Craig. That's who was pregnant with John Mortimer's child. It's horrible. The beginning of the book is more enjoyable. because even though there are things that are slightly bleak, slightly dark that are happening to her in your young life

and going forward and backwards, it seems like she's got such an incredible turn of phrase. Things are so comedic. Yes, so funny. But you're sort of enjoying a woman creating her own drama, a young woman perhaps being slightly self-destructive or even though the affair with Philpott feels very innocent at the beginning. Yeah, yeah.

And he says we only kissed. Who's Wendy Craig? Who's Wendy Craig? In real life. So he did in real life having an affair. And she did have a baby. but she kept it secret. No one knew it was John Mortimer was father until he was like an adult. While we're talking about this,

because it really seems to appeal to you, like what is true from the author's life? Yes, I find that really interesting. Yeah. Well, I find it really interesting, I suppose, because it's a slight, this is a leap, Jane Austen thing, being involved in the Jane Austen world, as I am,

in that women often do have to take from their life, and especially at that time, because where else would she have a life? Like, she, you know, she had six kids, and she, I mean, she was very successful writer, be fair. And I think sometimes that's minimised or considered, oh, is it writing? And this book got a lot, not criticism, but a lot of the reviews were like, oh, it's kind of based on her life. And they were a celebrity couple, her and John Mortimer. And that, like, they had her pictures in the paper a lot.

And people did come up to them and think they had it all. So she did have this inner pressure of, like, celebrity couple of like, I'm supposed to be the cool North London literary scene with six kids and we all just live together. And it's crazy. It's wonderful and it's beautiful, but it works. It's coming from a place of such knowledge, isn't it? But knowledge of pain? Yes. But it's not because, oh, I lived in a house like that so I can describe it. No, no, it's like the pain of being.

That's where you put it. Do you have to experience it? I think things that are sometimes so painful, you have to put them somewhere. Yeah. I think if you thought you didn't have full agency in losing a child that was wanted, I can see why you'd want to create something else where they sort of live. Like that's where that lives. Yeah, that's true.

Yeah. That's what I think. And it was an extraordinary thing that, like she lived in extraordinary life. But I don't know, sometimes I feel like when you bring up the real story, it's almost like, oh, are you criticizing them for having, but I think it's interesting to have the two. I don't think it's criticism, but I read it without that and didn't need it, is what I would say. I would agree.

So it's not like you have to revise Wikipedia before the book. No, no, I read it and then Wikipediaed after. Oh, I see. Because I was like, who is she? Why have I never heard of her properly? And then I was like, oh, my God. And because of Emily Morton and the actress, I was like, is that her mom? And I was like, okay, no, I need to understand.

what's happened here. But yeah, I read it and enjoyed it. You don't need to know this at all. I'm just someone who really enjoys facts after a thing. What did you think of Phil Pot? The character. I really loved the early description of her. Fantastic. Sorry, played by Maggie Smith in the film, just that you want to imagine it. My next question was, what star sign is Maggie Smith? I don't know. Impressive. So at the beginning you meet this woman who is lonely and eccentric and is described by the narrator

as sort of rushing into things. And so she seems slightly dramatic. slightly at fault and sort of fun and harmless. And she's sort of perching, described like a big duck on the fridge and sort of in the way. She says she was like one of those girls at school who have brothers but no love. Yeah. Oh, that stuck out from me. Yeah, really lovely. I was like, so she's been around boys but she still needs their love or something.

I don't know. Or just someone who's very envied. Yeah. But actually you shouldn't be envying him. It's the kind of thing you would envy at school like she's got six older brothers. Yeah, yeah. I thought that was... I liked Irene more, that little hussy.

Irene, not in the film at all. They remove that whole section, which I can understand why you would filmically. But also, in a film, how can you be as subtle as she is in the book? Yeah, yeah. In the book, we have a scene, a couple of scenes where it seems like the school friend who's come to stay seduces her dad. Yeah. But that's not explicit and it's not definite. What did you think? I don't think it was explicit.

Yeah, but what did you think? I think two things can be true at the same time. Yeah, what did you think she did? Strodinger's, Schrodinger's... I mean, it's her school friend who comes to stay, based. turns up in like full makeup and a bikini. I want to say Schrodinger's paedophilia. Schrodinger's heepathia.

Schrodinger was a paedophile. Did you know that? Oh, great. I know. Yeah. We've got the title of the episode. Yeah, he was. And they've been trying to remove him because like there's lots of university buildings

named after him, but he's like out and out known, has been known for years. Oh, God. But it's just part of me. Yeah, but there are no positives. Except it makes me like it's not just show biz. It's like all industries, all industries, these men. Yeah. There's a really good Helen Zaltman allusionist podcast about the buildings, I think in Ireland,

and they named him after they knew he was a bit of a. Like it wasn't like, oh, we named him at the time. It was like, no, everyone knew. And it was like, well, and now they're changing it to like room A1567. Because they're like, it's just, it just should be a room. It should be named for someone. What are we saying when we name someone? Yeah, human beings are very fallible.

Yeah. So that's just not involved them. Yes. Or just like men. Should we stop naming stuff after men? Yeah. Just in case. That's the key.

Just in case. Irene is her school friend who comes to stay in the summer and this is a kind of flashback moment when she's remembering I guess her initial meeting of boys and what she felt and she was very young and innocent and wasn't into boys and her friend Irene is into boys. Into them in a way that is both could be interpreted by men as really, really confident

but actually as a woman reading it you go little girls don't know what they're doing they're playing with it. Yeah because she turns up in like this ball gown and far make up. like sort of done up. Our character Joe is embarrassed for her and it's like, oh, this is so embarrassing,

how awful all the men will think she's an idiot and all the men who meet her are like, going bright red as she does this like really obvious batting of her eyelashes at them. And then there's a beautiful line from the narrator at the end of the chapter about how it's your own thought if you create drama.

But actually as a young woman, they talk a lot about women's magazines and the advice that you get, you actually get given a huge amount of information about the adult world and you have nowhere to process it yet. like 12-year-olds now watching Love Island. There is a lot of stuff you are told about heterosexual interactions

where you don't have a framework yet to actually solidly put those things in place. Shout out to Just 17 constantly saying, do not, you do not have to have sex with the boy. You never have to do that if you don't want to. Or more magazine. Well, you read the fortnight when you were 11 going, I didn't even know I had a bum hole yet. I read Prudy Prudy, Just 17, which was like, you don't have to do this.

I don't remember Just 17 being prudy. It was so feminine. It was like, you don't have to do this. If a boy says something, you can say no, it's your body. Like, I literally, if anything happened, I was like, remember just 17? What did just 17 tell you? And then Moore magazine was like, well,

if you wear a little skirt, come on, you know you want it. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. They were saucy. I didn't read more magazine. It was too much. It was too risque for me. I couldn't go with it. I think I had exactly what these characters have, which is an absolute fascination with what the adult world did. There's a very funny bit where the character thinks

vaginas, the throat. Did you have with Irene saying to her, Oh, yeah, yeah. I bet your mother hasn't said the word vagina to you. Oh, yeah, yeah. And she thinks,

why would she talk to me about my throat? It's actually, and I read it for this, and then I read it again just after I'd watched the film because it's just, I'm a deep diver.

And it's actually very funny. I said it was bleak. The first time I felt quite bleak about it, and the second time I was like, this is some really funny dialogue. Why was I, I think I felt so moved by her being trapped in motherhood.

Yeah. I think it was too, close for me. I think it's because you're married to a filmmaker. I think it probably is a bit too close. No, phalanuble filmmakers having sex to Pauline Fowler. Pauline Fowler people, where could you? So the point that's made actually by his philandering is it isn't just about, you know, youth and beauty, which is what one always feels when one was cheated on. It's because you were deficient and someone else was more attractive. She is beautiful. Like the character, this thing I think is quite important. She's definitely good looking her entire life. Her parents talk about it. And that is also,

what I think happens with Irene, her school friend, is jealous that actually she's very naturally beautiful, which I think is why they cast Anne Bankroft, who is ridiculously stunning. And so she is a beautiful person. And the impression you get with the woman he does have an affair based in front of her is she's not beautiful, she's kind of a mess. She has a child already, who she sort of leaves with them all the time, and no one likes this child. They find her really annoying. And so, yeah, I think that's interesting as well, that there's, it's not about looks, this affair. It's not about like, because I think if you heard the premise of the book, you'd be like, like, oh, mom was six kids, like she got tired.

It's like, no, no, she's reading Vogue, she's in this beautiful house, she's got everything. And, yeah, she's not happy. And yet he considers it absolutely fine to go and have many affairs in front of her. So it's what I think, and this is maybe what I meant when I said speaks to a modern audience. It's like, it's the complexity that I think still stands. Whereas I think the film compresses it quite into like, this is the time women couldn't do anything. Whereas I think the book is kind of talking to like, yeah, it's very easy to have everything and still be miserable.

Yeah, but that's a hard story to tell when so many people don't have everything. Yes, that's true. And I think have exactly the same spectrum for potential for human emotion because the arts... It doesn't bother me so much. It doesn't bother me. But I just think in general that the arts has always been really, really interested in privileged people. Yeah, maybe I'm used to those stories. And it's not like we have a huge representation to go to.

We hear from the wealthy because the wealthy have... Well, she's celebrated as a kind of forgotten female writer. But we are talking about forgotten female white upper middle class writer, which of course we are. A very well connected. She was writing in 1962. So, you know, yeah, to be successful at that time in the way that she was. I was going to say, so this thing, this, Irene, the reason I loved it so much was this example of a young girl and the words that they use is using sex for self-destruction.

And I was like, oh, isn't that fascinating? Because especially when you blame yourself as a younger person, before you realize, oh, you know. Yeah, yeah. I might have walked down the lane. I didn't deserve what that person did to me. Yeah. But you see it as self-destruction, oh, I shouldn't have done it.

If I hadn't gone there, if I hadn't called him, if I hadn't seemed like I liked him, what did I expect? She has quite a 60s take on that. Do you think it's quite old-fashioned? Or did you feel as a modern gal? Did you still speak to you? Well, I think this is where it's really amazing to get to read something, because reading it now, I assumed the author wanted me to think what I did think, which is it's not her fault. Yeah. Whereas actually she may have written it going, yeah, and it was.

I could tell, yeah, she sort of goes for this walk down an alley with her dad's friend. Yeah, a guy. And he kind of gropes her. But it's dealt with in a very, I mean, even me saying that makes it sound more dramatic than she treats it. She treats it as like, well, that's, you know, welcome to life, basically, doesn't she? Yeah. No, she says, I was lucky I wasn't raped. Yeah.

A man with a different personality would have raped to me. Yes, yeah. But she says it in a very, do you know what I mean? I feel like quite old-fashioned way of like, oh, well, rather than like fucking how, what I'm. saying it was like yeah oh well yeah but that's good luck for me but that's such a trauma influenced behaviour to minimise the things that are actually traumatic but still sort of say yeah that happened well they were so traumatised at that point weren't they yeah Jesus Christ yeah that's what I thought with a lot of this book is this is someone who is still in trauma writing about someone who is

still in trauma I mean that's what she's describing with the sort of all of the tears and the breakdown is it someone having a traumatic response to something while saying they don't know why they're crying yeah it's interesting isn't it like does Joe with the character, no, she's having a breakdown, because it's often not, it's often treated quite lightly. Yeah. In a way that I don't think a modern book would, would treat that, you know, that would be like, this is, obviously we're aware, this is awful, what's happening to me, this is terrible, where she sort of never really acknowledges what's going on with herself. And I guess because the male character, so she has these conversations with a therapist.

Yes. And the therapist and the doctors are so dismissive. Terrible therapist. Yeah, but they're so dismissive of her, which enables it still to sort of, you know, skirt around comedically. Yeah. because their responses are so inappropriate. Yeah, and I guess that is what makes quite a lot of it quite funny is people minimizing her trauma quite a lot. But you know what I mean? Because it's the 60s, it's kind of like a side note of like,

oh, you know, I'm pregnant for the eight time. My husband's made me having abortion, but it's exactly the same time you got another one pregnant, she kept it. Oh, that's like not what the book is about. Like, was it that was a book now that almost would be, that's the whole story is like how she deals with that. It's almost like over there in the background

and she writes about everything else. all you can hear screaming is this pain of what just happened to me. But she does often say the character's often, it doesn't make jokes about it, but she's often like, she sort of pinpoints the reason she's upset is because he had the other child, not because he made her do this thing she didn't want to do.

It's all kind of placed on the other woman. In her reply to Mrs. Evans, which she does several times, that's a point. The woman who writes to her. Yes. Her responses there are based on what's happened to her, which is the abortion at that point.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I thought that the reply was really like, flea bags monologue about women's pain. You know when someone has a very personal experience but is able to extrapolate it to say, and this is women, this is what we're going through. You, me, who's helping who? But again, it's done that way of like,

that's just being a woman, isn't it? It's not like, she's not offering any alternative. No, and it's not agitating for the revolution. No. You know, she's not included in that like Betty Friedan or like that sort of 60s writers, but she is highlighting exactly a woman's plight at that time, but she's not offering a solution to it,

which I think is what fiction can do. You know, it's not a polemic, revolutionary piece. She's saying, this is my story, take of it what you will. But there's something more honest about that, someone remaining trapped. What you can also do in fiction is saying, this is how you get yourself out of there. This is, if you've got the right temperament and the right tools,

you can make people believe that changes, because it's much nicer to read a book that ends really nicely, it makes you feel positive. Do you want another fact? Yes, please. When she read the first good review of this book, she vomited. Love it. That's good, isn't it?

Yeah, I thought you'd like that. Anyone who reads their own reviews should have to vomit straight away. This was her sixth book, I think. And some had been buried without trace, and she wrote one with John Mortimer, a travelogue. What I find so fascinating about the vomiting is she talks in this book, she several times says don't ask people, don't ask people that question because you won't like the answer.

Don't torture yourself with that conversation. which is exactly what reading a review is. Yes. You don't actually want to know. When she opens his mail, she knows what's early. That's exactly like reading a review. You're not going to like what you read. Well, she liked it.

It was the first time she had a good review, so she threw up. But you can get a good review and still be completely overwhelming and not recognize yourself. I think this was the first book that, like, landed, although she didn't consider it her best. I really did read a lot about her. I love that you did. I love that you did. I got very into it. But she is a weirdo in many ways, and she's considered a weirdo because the amount of children she's had.

Yes. And everybody, and very interesting that they're talking about abortion in 1962, and people are out and out like, you should definitely have one because you got too many. Like the doctors, her husband, nobody says, oh, oh, my God, you can't do that. And a hysterectomy, you've had enough and it will stop, you're sterilized. All the men say you can't possibly have any more. And her mother. Her mom, yeah, her mom says to her, it was all right in, you know, grandmother's day,

she couldn't have anything, but you've got options. And she said to her, because they used to all die all the time. Yeah. She said it's all right in the olden days. And she said, drink more gin. Yeah, she says have some more gin while she tells her she's pregnant again. Yeah. So, yes, I think her husband considers her weirdo.

And her husband very much, Jake, the character, doesn't understand her at all. What do you think? Because she's so deeply in love with Jake and he's so deeply inappropriate for her. There's a description of him. Yes, it's so good. It's so blistering. And it's quite late in the book. So he seemed more affable if you were just taking it on.

you know, events. And then she describes him as, Jake is a violent man who wears a sluggard body for disguise, sleepy, amiable, anxious to please, lazy, tolerant, possibly in some ways, a little stupid. This is the personality he wears as a man in the world. His indestructible energy, aggression, cruelty and ambition are well protected. And suddenly you're scared.

Yeah. I'm scared of him. And I'm scared of someone loving someone like that. And I'm scared of men being able to seem safer than they are. The fact that she clearly was deeply in love with him And she goes on to say after that bit of like Once she realised she knew it wasn't unfair battle She knew she could never win

And he went on loving me even after I was beaten Propped up with my wound wide open Empted of Memory or Hope I'd say leave him at that point That's my thought it was bleak Do you know what I mean? I read stuff like that And then on the reread I saw the jokes And I was like actually it's really funny

But it's a woman in so much pain I didn't think she really loved him though Did you not? Because I think because if you don't really know someone, don't really understand them, it seemed to be, whenever she was asked about loving him, she was really vague.

And it was like, he was there. And at the beginning, you think it's just because he's taking the children on. He's young, he's unsuccessful. He works at home and a little office. And he's taken all these other men's kids. He's sort of emasculated at the beginning.

You don't find out until three quarters of the way through, he has this secret aggression. Ambition. Ambition. Ambition. And battles with her. Also, he does that very male thing of making, I've done it all for you and the family.

You're the reason I'm going to Africa for six months and going back to Hollywood to have an affair with another woman. There's that great bit where she says, after she's found out about the affair and they're sort of making up, and he wants a kiss and she says, like, he puckers his lips and looks at him maternal-like. And that she says, I could envision all my past husbands who I fucked over, look at me and being like,

ha, it's your turn now. So she's quite vicious about herself, as much as she's vicious. She's vicious about everybody. Like her writing is vicious, I think. In a way that's why it's good because the way she describes people is like, well, fucking out. But maybe it is because it's based on a true relationship and a true man.

Maybe that makes it much harder to write them as a really good character because depending how you're feeling at the time about them, it's going to dictate how you present them. I would argue that's why he is a good character because he's completely flawed. He doesn't make sense. He's a bit inconsistent. Part of you is like he's not a character. He's a real human.

You get that humanity of him in that. you're like, oh God, like I can see why you did fall for this. I can see also I can see why he's saying, how many kids have you got? And you're pregnant again and that's your answer to this situation. Like I could also understand his position of being like, they do have a lot of kids. There was a really lovely moment, I mean, in that it was so depressing that I thought was very reflective of marriage. Yes. Which is when she's, she's done this really great thing, which is he's come home from filming and he's a little bit down. So she says, has his huge party. And then at the end of the party, she says to him, my dad's ill. I think it's

cancer and then from his face she knows oh i should have waited till tomorrow he's got that annoyance of like why did you tell me now but about the ugliness of illness she says i should have waited um and so there's two things i thought how we all project so he didn't say to her couldn't have waited the morning i was in a good mood yeah she saw a facial expression and created a whole narrative around too but also jake but also how you spend so much time with someone and those kind of annoyances you are so cruel accidentally yeah and i think that comes back into the motherhood thing because there is no time in that marriage and no space even though they do have a lot of help there are still an or nordinate amount of children to be dealing with and that's

what marriage and motherhood end up being your time is so stripped down to like the you know it's like peeing a carrot over and over again you got nothing and so when someone wants anything you're like fuck you you can't fucking have it guys get married have kids it's great my 16 month old who uh you know it's just saying the odd word said fuck yesterday and i'm like oh He pushed over his nappy bit and went, fuck. And I was like, oh, oh, mommy has been too moody around you. My daughter, when she was in the buggy, one time we were pushing down the road, and she was like swinging herself back and forward going,

Motherfucker, motherfucker, motherfucker! And I thought, yeah, okay, I do swear too much. My mum kept saying you swear too much. I was like, he's fine. And I thought, yeah, okay, message received. Yeah. She didn't know what it means, and I'd stop saying motherfucker. Yeah.

I thought it'd be really nice to end. Yeah. with a line from Penelope Mortimer. So the author can say goodbye. Okay. And this one just felt so appropriate. This is the last line of the book. Some of these things happened and some were dreams.

They are all true as I understood truth. They are all real as I understood reality. That's perfect. So perfect. For all of us living in our own heads, in our own minds. Just doing our best in the world. Doing our best, interpreting things based on our own experiences. But also for someone who is writing of something, you know,

all of it's true. None of it happened. Thank you, Planetip Mortimer. Yes. You weirdo. Thank you for listening to the Weirdo's Book Club. We'd love it if you subscribed in your podcast app. You can even review us.

Which we'll read and then vomit if it's too nice. Next week's book guest, we're so excited she's agreeing to join the Weirdo's Book Club because she's already a member. It's Weirdo by Sarah Pasco. It's so on theme. It's unbelievable. And it's a special live episode. Special live episode coming to you from 21 Soho in London. Thank you for reading with us.

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