Sara & Cariad's Weirdos Book Club - The Readers Talk Writing Part 1

Episode Date: July 31, 2025

In part one of these special episodes on writing Sara and Cariad (the readers) talk about their own paths to books, writing and writing processes.Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you!Tickets for Sara's tour show I Am A Strange Gloop are available to buy from sarapascoe.co.ukWhere Did She Go? by Cariad Lloyd is available to buy here.Follow Sara & Cariad’s Weirdos Book Club on Instagram @saraandcariadsweirdosbookclub and Twitter @weirdosbookclub Recorded and edited by Naomi Parnell for Plosive.Artwork by Welcome Studio.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Sarah Pasco. And I'm Carriead Lloyd. And we're weird about books. We love to read. We read too much. We talk too much. About the too much that we've read. Which is why we created the Weirdo's Book Club. A space for the lonely outsider to feel accepted and appreciated. Each week we're joined by amazing comedian guests and writer guests to discuss some wonderfully and crucially weird books, writing, reading and just generally being a weirdo. You don't even need to have read the books to join in. It will be a really interesting, wide-ranging conversation and maybe you'll want to read the book afterwards. We will share all the upcoming. books we're going to be discussing on our Instagram, Sarah and Carriad's Weirdo's Book Club. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you. Hi, Carriad. Hi, Sarah. Normally we talk about a specific book. Upcoming books, books you want to read. This is us talking about writing, which is what happens to books before they exist.

Yes, and you've written lots of books. I wouldn't say lots. Wouldn't you? No. Have you written four? Three published books and a play. I'd say it's quite not. Would you?

Yeah. I feel shy about saying a lot. You've written loads. No, I've written a nonfiction, a middle grade and a picture book. Exactly. So you get shy about your own. You get shy. You know he's not shy about how much he's written?

Who? Jeffrey Archer. What were you reading at 10? I really liked point horrors. Oh, they were just going. I was still reading Aeneid Blyton until secondary school. Were you? Really into Enid Blyton.

Oh, you love it. In terms of, like, adult books, I read some Jermaine Greer. Did you at 10? Yes. Someone bought my mum. the female eunuch. She didn't read it. I did.

Also read our bodies ourselves. I don't know if you've ever read that. It's not Nancy Friday, is it? No. Oh, I read Nancy Friday. I read, yeah, probably a little bit older. I found out one of my aunties houses. That's the one where everyone sends in their sexual fantasies.

She does a sexy one, yeah, called The Secret Garden. Secret Garden. I read that one. She does another one called My Mother, myself. Oh, I read that. I was about to say. I read at the same time as I read a book about why your mother hate you because you got a nice skin. And I was like, oh, is that why?

My mum recently popped that round for me. Did she? Yeah. Did she read it when you were a teenager? No, she read it before she had kids. About her, she said to me, she was like, have you read this? And I said, no, she said, this was the book everybody had to read. Because I'd made her read all fours.

And she was like, this was like our book. Our generation was, it's your mother's fault. And now it's like, it's your husband's fault. Yes. Leave him become a lesbian. But I think mothers were supposed to read it. Well, that's what I thought at the time. because I was such a young child.

Yeah, you were a young child. To read it to understand why they found their teenage, a 12, 13, 14 year old daughter difficult. And then the idea of a parent being jealous of a daughter. Oh, no. I think it was written for like, hey, you're fucked up. It's your mom's. Because your mum was jealous of you.

It's your mom's fault, yeah. This is what this is about. Help young women cope with what they were dealing with. Oh. I think. Not being of the time in the 70s. So you haven't read it? Oh, mate, you know what our TBR piles like?

We can do it as an episode. We could. It sat there. Yeah. And especially as you're right, if it was a different angle. Yeah, I mean, she really keeps telling me to read it. Well, let's read it for your, let's get your mum on. Absolutely.

Would you ever? No way. No. Do we have your mum on? I think that would be brilliant. Well, let's ask her. If you're happy with it. Why are you saying it like I won't ask her? Gail will be on the podcast and you won't get to backtrack.

We're going to read Nancy Friday with my mother. So in terms of being a writer, 10 is very young, but presumably you wrote lots then. No. No. No. Well, not stories for school. Not a fanzine. Oh, now you ask me, because do you know what I, which I think is a classic improviser thing to do. I used to write plays, and I used to write the cast list. This is a classic improviser slash I didn't know I had ADHD. I used to write the cast list and then I'd go, well, I'm bored and I would stop writing. I would never finish anything. Because I was like, I'd write the cast list, get excited. I'd start pretending to be in that play, playing all the parts. And then I'd be like, oh, what was they doing?

Oh, I was, well, I've done it now. But I wasn't particularly, I found writing down, still find writing down difficult, like living in my head more. But you were writing stories at this point? Yeah, I'd read about something where someone wrote and bound their own stories and then left them hidden for people. Oh, not little women. That sounds a bit Joe March. No. It might be.

It might have been from little women. So what I would do is staple together some paper, illustrate, write my story. and then leave it on a bus or in a box of cereal at the supermarket. And also, I thought they were the most beautiful things I'd ever seen. So I really, from the beginning, overestimated my own talents. Well, I think that's interesting, right? And from the beginning, I thought, you're not good enough to continue this, stop writing it. There we go.

The core of both of us is revealed. The germs are already there. Yeah, yeah. I was like, no one wants you to finish that. Just put it away. No one would care. It's hard. It's hard.

I think that's most people's experience when they write. But so did anyone find this comic? Sorry, comic novel. Well, actually, no, but we used to write stories, well not letters on balloons and send them off. And we often had letters back from people who found their balloons. Yeah, one from France, one from an orchard in Cornwall. Was that not the most exciting day? Amazing.

And the replies from Princess Diana. We sent her a lot of pictures. Did they send you back? When I talk about my childhood, it sounds like I was Georgian rather than 80s Dagnum. Apart from Princess Diana, I agree with you. Yeah, like Queen Charlotte right back to you. We wrote letters to Buckingham Palace. I think we sent one to Margaret Thatcher.

Gee. Yes. Say what? Keep doing the good work. No, I did a picture for you. Wow. This is a game where the arrogance is like, who want this? Prime Minister, probably.

It's that good. Wow. Did you ever have a sense? Okay, so I entered a Blue Peter competition. My mum really encouraged me and you had to design an outfit for Karen. What's her name? It wasn't Honeyford because Gloria Honeyford's her mom. She's the one who really sadly died of breast cancer.

It was so sad. And she was so lovely. Yeah, she was lovely, lovely. And then, yeah, to design an outfit for her. And I drew, well, I now know it was a terrible picture. And they had, they were like, this week we're going to announce the winners. And I was like, well, I will win because my mum said it was great. And they paned.

So, you know, they have like the board with loads of them pin up. And they panned and mine wasn't even on the board. And then they announced the winner. And it was like a teenager who, I can still remember. She designed like a lime green which had like butterflies on wires. If you are just over 40, you all know this. And it was amazing. Yeah.

And I was like, oh, I didn't win. And I took that as, which says a lot about me, oh, I see, I'm not good enough for these things. I will never enter that ever again. Because I was like, I couldn't handle. Because you're so sensitive. That's what makes you. The rejection.

But you're a good artist. I'm a good artist. And good artists have to be sensitive, like Robbie Williams. And it makes the world crushing. But it's very, I really took that as fact. Like, oh, I didn't know that. You're lucky. They didn't make fun of the bad ones.

Because I thought that's where this was going. They're like, this one's one. Look at these shitties we haven't put on the wall. It's been pizza, Sarah, no. No. But that's what I mean. You never had a mitt where you were like, oh, I wrote this story, but no one's came back to me. Well, there you go.

There are a pass fork. At McDonald's where I was really surprised. So we, the school, we didn't do it in a McDonald's. We did it all at school and all the schools in Essex did it. And it just had to write a poem. And it didn't have to be about McDonald's. And mine wasn't about McDonald's. And I was so shocked to win.

And that's when I was like, oh, I'm God, am I? I just get what I want. Both of us leap too far in one direction. I think I got given a book voucher for that. This all feels to me, which I wasn't expecting from this episode, like this is your life, this is what made you. Well, it's me and yeah, we can't. I've got a 10-pound book voucher.

Yes, and I got to go into it as well and my whole family ate for free. Oh, wow. And it was like I'm God then. That is cool. Yeah. That is cool to get a book token. Like in our, people don't realize. We also to be told you're the best.

But in our world, booktoked to win that sort of thing. Whoa, that's a big prize of book token. Yeah, massive money. And you took from it, I'm God. the best. Yeah, I couldn't believe it. But also, I said what I did have is that I knew it was easy. English literature was always the thing. Yeah, I did know that it was easy for me. It's like a superpower. I had a memory of being in my A levels, getting an essay back, I hate to brag, getting A plus always. And the girl next to me, he was very, very popular, turned and said, how do, how comes you get

that every time? Because I was not as popular as her. And I remember thinking, and that realization of like, oh, is this hard for you? Like, oh, I thought we were all. It's easy. You get a poem and you just say this and this. Oh, it's about that. She meant that. This metaphor means this. Boom. A plus. Thank you. That was a big, that's why I did English University. I was like, oh, I see.

It's the only thing that I didn't really. I thought everyone could do this. Oh, actually, it's a bit of a special skill. I'm not God, but I will take this one skill. So sorry for bothering you, everyone else. I'll just go doing it. At university, did you ever consider the possibility of writing? Well, I did a play, sir. I wrote a play.

Yes. That Sarah Pasco was in. Do you know Sarah Pasco? I do know that. Yeah, she was in it with someone else, which is very... That was the first time I think I'd written something down and considered it worthy. Tea and toast?

Tea and toast, it was called. And it was about a couple having tea and toast at their back door having a conversation about... It was a beautiful play. I don't even remember anything about. I do you not remember? No. They were talking about their relationship.

Yeah. It's very deep, very meaningful. Very intense. Probably would have been a substack post these days. But instead it was a play at the Am Drum, Sussex University, Drama Society. Suds. But that was the first time I wrote something down and was brave enough to consider it worthy.

Before that, up into that, I just... And you directed it as well? Well, some would say arrogantly. I don't think we had another option. No one else wanted to do it. But also that, if university isn't for writing and performing and directing yourself, then I don't know what is. Exactly, that is the point of it.

But yeah, I don't know what made me feel like, I suddenly felt like I had confidence to do stuff like that. I don't know. Being around other people doing it? I think also leaving school. Because I think like at school it was like I said, it wasn't like I wasn't, I had a fine time school. I wasn't bullied.

I was like, as I like to say, second tier. Wasn't the most popular but equally was just one below. Safe. Safe. And I was really good friends with the popular girls because a lot of them I'd known since primary school. So I was very safe. Had an older brother.

People would literally be like, oh shit, didn't realize that was his sister. So they would stop. Some girls tried to bully me and someone came over and said, don't you know that's his sister. And they were like, oh, sorry about that. So sorry, but didn't realize. Because he was so cool and popular. Was he? Yeah.

Yeah. But then did you have that annoying thing where teachers were like, oh, you're Tom's little sister? Yeah, they were horrible to me. The whole of year seven, basically they were like, what are you doing? Where are you going? And I was like, no, where I'm just sitting here? And at parents' evening, every single teacher said to my mum, oh, we thought she's going to be a nightmare, but she's nothing like him, is she?

I'm sorry about that. We've been really mean to her. She's actually very polite. So, yeah. So I was safe. so then maybe but I don't think I think it took university

to find other creative people So I had picked to do Of course I had Theatre studies Performing Arts And media studies A Levels Because I was going to be a star And then

You knew you were God already Yeah And the woman who was interviewing me For intake She said so you want to be an actor And I said Yes Rada won't audition me

Till I'm 18 So I've got to come To Sixth Form College first And they like people Who've got an education And she said I heard that About people

And she said Well actually If you're going to go to drama school, you don't need performing arts and theatre studies. She said, why don't you study psychology A level because that will help you understand your characters? Then she said, why don't you study English literature? Because then you'd be really good at reading plays and reading your scripts. And then she said, I don't think you need media studies. I think you need to understand contract laws. You should do a law a level. Wow. And so I had completely different A levels.

Someone I can't remember her face or name. Never saw her again. But babes if you're listening. But like a fairy. No, but also that thing of just people being, treating you like an adult, respecting your choice but saying but also now knowing what I know as a 44 year old who does work in the in brackets sort of performing arts you don't need an A level in performing arts you don't but a little bit more education might be really beneficial

it might be really enjoyable understanding contract law a little bit is actually very useful Are you getting a bit emotional by that lady changing? I'm crying my eyes out You looked a bit like you were getting moved by then it's huge yeah I know that's why I wanted to like acknowledge it but also with humour that slightly mocked you because we're both our best six backgrounds.

Wow, I didn't realise it. She swerved it so much. That's massive. Just crossed them all out on a form. Wow. But what about your friends? And also her point was that you can do drama in all of your time off.

And I did. We did plays every term at college. But didn't your friend say, Sarah, why aren't you doing the BTEC with us? I'm trying to think. Did they not think, oh, she thinks she's better than she is? I know, we all felt very slowed down because our experience, because my friends,

we'd all been doing so much amateur. amateur performances, but with older people who'd already been to drama school, our thing was the teachers are jealous of us. Oh my God, that feeling. I remember we had like TIE come into our school and they like tried to speak to us and I was like, well, since they've already failed at their performing life, I don't need to talk to hear from them. I know because I just thought, you're teaching in school, guys. Oh, wow. Why would I be listening to you? This is how different well, because I suspended disbelief to such an extent that I had one assembly on not drink driving and I only did a not drink and drive I didn't learn to drive because they ever

accidentally drank because I found it so powerful the TIE. You were so moved. Oh my God. Because they did it proper. Maybe you had really good TIE. Maybe they were a RAD TRAI. They didn't play back theatre where you had to tap the character and come in yourself and tell them not to get in the car.

And, you know, I was the first up because I wanted to be an actor as I told them. And so once I'd sort of acted it out, I was like, I'm just not going to learn to drive. It's not safe. I love that their TIE they were trying to stop drink driving but they didn't realise the impact they'd had on you Yeah the roads are empty in Montford That's interesting isn't it

Because like that's where your arrogance moves Because I had no faith in my writing skills at all But I saw those actors and was like I can smell that this isn't what you want to do And I could smell that you're embarrassed to be here And therefore I'm a bit embarrassed for you So I'd never been to a theatre then So I just thought it was brilliant

But also we then both went on to do TIE. Yeah, I know. And then trust me. So you must have really struggled with that. The karma. My chickens came home to Roos and they laughed at me. One of my first theatre memories is age four being taken to Regents Park, open their theatre and seeing Macbeth.

Were you the Queen? I saw Nicola McCallif. In a park. Yep. It's supposed to be on the swings. And she, and that's saying, I don't want to be a writer. I want to be an actor. So that's why the writing was like, sure, whatever.

Other people are going to write for me. I'm going to be Shakespeare an actor. that's what my thought was. I saw Nicola McCallive and she was doing a bit out damn spot on her hands but they had a real flame she had a hand in the fire

I was four years old I was like the fuck this is the most this is magic this and I remember sitting we were really close to the front and we were very near her and she was doing the whole speech

and I was like that's what I want to do that is what I'm like that to me was proper acting so that's the other thing I was completely like acting acting only now that's make me think

that's why I wasn't so bothered about writing. So I said, someone else will write it. I don't need to. Remember when I went to see, you know, the theatre or Haymarket used to do these masterclasses. Yeah, we used to go to them. So I went to see Charles Dance. Oh, yeah. He's advice, because it was always out of work, actors who were there sort of desperate for a little morsel from the table that might help them. And he said, the point is just keep acting. No matter what it is, no matter what you do, you just got to work and work and work, you just got to be enthusiastic. You've just got to keep doing, take, say yes to everything. And then in the Q&A, I said to him, because of the work I was

doing was in old people's homes and in schools. Reminder talk. Yeah. So I said, oh, working, working, working, you were doing rep theatre. If you were doing TIE and plays for old people in old people's homes, would you then have just, would you still have considered that acting? And he said, uh, no. He said, I don't think I could have faced that.

Charles Dance. Yeah. What would you say to someone now then? What do we do? Comedy and sketch shows. Online stuff. Online stuff. I'd be like, people want entertainment.

There's a circuit. It just might not be the circuit you thought you were going to join. Yeah. That's the thing. And actors from that generation, I would say, you know, pre-1980s. They came from, they might as well be saying, you need to go to the empire and entertain the troops. What I look back on and think about myself, and I'm not saying this about you or anyone else. But what's really clear is the reason I never got a callback from drama school, the skills they are looking for as a trainable actor at drama school, I didn't have.

Their decision was right. Yeah, yeah. I would not have flourished. When did you, like, so you were very successful stand-up. Obviously, there was a lot of tour guide busing jobs before that, as we both know. But when did you think, oh, I'm going to write a book? Well, I'd always planned to write books in my 40s. That was the plan.

That was my plan from my teenage. 15th for politics, wasn't it? Yes. I had this sort of super objective, which is all decades, of doing certain things. And 40s for me felt like saying when I'm 300. because it was so far away from a 14 and 15-year-old it didn't seem arrogant. And also I was sort of aware

I'll be a completely different person and she'll have to be good at writing. So it wasn't like going, oh, I think I could write books now. Oh, okay. It was in the distant future. And I also think I believed, even from 16, it's a learnable skill. Yeah, I think this is where we also differ

that you were like, if I work hard enough, I'll figure that out. Whereas I would often go, oh, I'm not good at it instantly, therefore I don't, I guess I can't do it. Yes. whereas I was not good at lots of things instantly, including standard comedy.

Yeah. And it's not about saying I'm going to be the world's best novelist, I'm going to be the great American novelist, etc. Or I want to have the experience like running a marathon. Yeah. I can run a short race or I could try and put, you know, run longer and longer distances. I think that's a really admirable skill.

And I think lots of people who have success young have that ability to go, I'm just going to keep going to time better. And I think when you're in your 20s, advice to younger people listening, if they do, you look around and you're like oh my god how is everyone do it how comes they're there and you're like because they're willing to be shit that's all the differences I think now what a huge understanding is is that discomfort doesn't mean you should stop something yeah which I took that as

oh it I don't like it I should stop no one would ever run a marathon yeah if the minute running was uncomfortable yeah well then I stop yeah sit down yeah you go oh discomfort doesn't mean pain discomfort is a really interesting learning experience and being it's really uncomfortable to write and it's really uncomfortable to write bad things knowing that you will edit them later. Do you remember that postcard you had on your wall when you live with me and my mum that said, I still remember it, write hard about what hurts.

It's Ernest Hemingway quote. Write hard and clear about what hurts. Still on my desk. Yeah, I thought it was. I thought it was okay. Well, I now think that's going to be my autobiography title. Have you checked with Mr. Hemingway? I'm going to do your version of it.

Oh, yeah, write hard about what hurts. Right hard, what hurts. Ernest Hemingway. Ernest inspired me, but I've never, my stories haven't been told. I now think I wouldn't get. with Ernie Slemingway and I'd been so... What do you mean you now think? Of course you were done.

For such a long time I just thought we would have been friends. Oh my God. Why did you think that? Because he hate... You're a woman. He instantly isn't going to like you. I thought he'd see past that. Oh my God, the arrogance. Now the fact that I'm a vegan even, and I don't think he'd get on with any of it. I just don't think he'd like you on site because he wasn't...

No, because he don't like women. He wasn't great with women. I don't think he'd want to sleep with you. No, not at this age. Maybe in my 20s. Maybe in my 20s. I'm just surprised that you thought you and him would be pals. Some difficult men do like me. I don't mean you. I mean, like he wouldn't like me

on site. That's what I mean? He'd come into this room and be like, no thanks and he'd turn around. He'd be like, when's off menu being recorded? Oh, they booked Hemingway and off menu. God, can you mind how jealous would be if they got Hemingway? I'd be fuming. That would actually really hurt. Really hurt. You were willing to write hard and clear about what hurts. But did you always know that? That's why I'm trying to get a diary. Well, I kept a diary. Yeah, you did keep a diary. And so I always found my own feeling. fascinating and I think this is true of lots of people who have the audacity to go on stage and just talk about themselves and make that their job. Although it took me several

permutations in creativity to get to that. The first thing is you have to find it interesting and the second thing is this jump in confidence of like maybe someone else will find it interesting exploring yourself. That's just really interesting because I, whenever I did write, I would only write when I was in extreme pain and I would write, I can't read my own handwriting. It's so bad that I don't know what I'm saying and I would write just purely to deal with the feeling yeah never to be it wasn't interesting to me it was like this is so agonizing that if I write through it I'll feel better and then almost you could burn that it means that was the point of it yeah it was not interesting to me yeah but but the fact that you knew to do that it's very healthy did

someone tell you to write out your feelings or it was just like I think I must have just yeah I just you know just picked it up along the way well and then I did the artist's way after we left university and that's when but before that I would write stuff down I think because we grew up without the internet. I tried to think what we would have done now. I would have read some horrible Instagram posts. I mean, I think I would have documented things online. I think you would have, yeah.

Put your dances up and your monologues. No, no, not of me physically. I wouldn't have changed that much, but I think I would have self-published things. I think there were a lot of Facebook, long Facebook statuses, regrettable ones. You would have been like, yeah, blogging. Yeah.

There was a period of time where I did write poetry, and it's really good that there wasn't, So much internet then So you were doing stand-up And I remember you did this show And then there was talk of turning that into a book But that was that the first time that you were like That was animal, wasn't it?

Yeah Was that the first time you were like Oh great, yes, I've been waiting for this Yeah, it felt very exciting But did you think, mm-hmm, correct This is the right next move Or were you like, oh my God, can I do this? Can I write?

I just remember absolutely just like fizzing with dopamine Oh wow Just fizzy with dopamine It was really good that it came off something That was a huge amount of confidence Yeah. Because Edinburgh had been three times and been mixed reviews, very badly reviewed, sort of good reviews, but still small room, feeling like not one of the major players.

And then to do a fourth show and then all of a sudden just have everything you want. So it starts with comedians coming to see your show. Comedians go and see people that they hear are doing well or they saw them gigging and they liked what they were doing. And it's always how you know you're onto something if comedians want to see you. So I remember like Joe C. Long coming to like the first or second one. I was living with her as well actually. So it was a little bit of expectation. But anyway, just hit the ground running.

My show started selling really well. Good reviews. And then just that thing where the judges come in all the time. And then the last Saturday, knowing, like I think it had something like seven judges in. And it being an absolute stonker. And going, okay. And then getting nominated, which had never happened before. And who'd be really massive.

For Best Show, Edinburgh. Comedy Festival Best Show. What used to be at the Perrier. And so already the show had gone so well and then for someone to come in and go, oh, you could do a book of this if you wanted. It just felt really, it just felt like being on the right track

rather than throwing stuff at the wall and going, okay, some of it stuck but not this, and what should I do next time? It was like, no, do this, follow this. And how did you, when you got to, you got the book deal, you'd stand up doing it very successful.

No, but there's more to that because it was pitching the book. It's like, because the person who said to write it, still had to pitch it to them so they could take it to other people in the company. And so there was sort of a process of, I didn't like the homework and having homework marked, even when it was a pitch of like, not this, not that.

We're thinking something more like this. Because you can't just go, I've done a show. Now I'll write a book of it. They're like, what will the book be? Yeah, how do we take this and make it that? That's the bit that I think is quite hard. Yeah. Because it is homework you have to do on the basis of nothing.

And the basis of no deal. Yes, just for yourself on the hope that something else might come out of it. That's interesting because I'm sure people assume, oh, you had a great stand-up, you just stand-up show. And you're on telly, you just get given a book deal. And it's like, no, no, you still have to constantly prove yourself and constantly hand in the essay and have someone go, yeah. And I'll get told no.

Because there are lots of people who pitch things and then they go, no, not this. But after you'd got the deal and it was like, yes, we do want you to write that. Did you, how did you go about, like, because it's funny if you've never written a book before. Like, how did you go? Because obviously, most writers write, you know, that they don't have three, Edinburgh's of mixed reviews. They have three books of mixed view that they've tried. And I think both me and you have done what most people do this day, which is jump sideways. And sometimes people get, not shitty, but a bit like, oh, well, you've done that. And you're like, I'm having to do that

because the careers don't exist in the way that they used to exist. The television doesn't exist. And I also want to, right. But yeah, how did you? You give a lot more, you give a lot of space to detractors. Yeah, I do. You give a lot of space to detractors. Yeah. Whereas I just sort of think, there are these people on the periphery who are jealous. I'm like, there's these people, and they're going to come up and they're going to question you, and you need your argument ready for why it's okay, you're doing what you're doing. Why does it matter? Because I honestly think if people are that bothered about it, write your own books, don't buy other people's books.

I think maybe I'm more sensitive to this at the moment because of children's books. Yes. So that's what I've had. Well, because there's so many celebrities that write children's books. And when I announced I was writing a children's book, obviously most people were very fine. but there was a general, like some of the coverage was like, oh, celebrities, another celebrity writing it, when you want to be like, English literature degree

and have obsessed with kids book all my life. Well, as I'm going to take the celebrity. Take the fact that they people go, they think you're up there with Bernie Zelliger and Sarah Jessica Parker. Carrie had written one as well now. The West End put movie styles in plays. Well, people complain about that. Well, no, but you say that.

Actors can't complain about all that time. I know, but I guess what you just, we're all saying the same thing is, oh, the world isn't very fair. fair. No, no one ever said the world is fair. Well, also, I think the thing you have to come back to is like the world is so different. So Charles Dance, you know, when he's doing rep, the acting pool, like the number of people in the census who said they were actors is a minuscule compared to now. Like lots of people didn't go into acting. They didn't have the economic background.

They didn't have the, you know, cultural background to go. It just wasn't an option. Yeah. And, you know, certainly no one in my family comes from creative background at all. I'm from a wealth of market traders and businessmen. And so that's the thing that now the pool is so massive. Of course there has to be different ways to do that. Like the game has changed is what I'm saying. How did you write animal then? How did you sit down and just think, I'm just going to do this?

Loads of research. Someone said to me that nonfiction was easier than fiction because on the days where it's difficult to write you can research. Yeah, that's true. I agree with that. I really loved that. I really loved having photocopies and printouts and notes. and look, I do a lot of rough one I can't write well. I do a lot of.

And now say something about this and I can force myself. That's good. I can force myself to go, there needs to be a paragraph here about how this study is the one they keep quoting. But actually, when you get to the first one, it's only 13 people. And sometimes that will trick me into it and actually just start writing. I spent a lot of time thinking it would never happen. It will never be long enough.

My contract was 100,000 words. And I knew that was 10 Edinburgh shows. My Edinburgh shows is about 9,000 or 10,000 words because if you type it up, you speak about 80 words a minute an average. So you can work out. So I knew it was 10 Edinburgh shows,

which is obviously I hadn't written 10 Edinburgh shows. But I knew I'd written three, four. So it was plodding along and I kept thinking it wouldn't happen. And then when there was a first draft, it was so terrible. But the second draft was so much better. And then the third draft was so much better. And then you have an editor. And then, unfortunately, I thought that happened,

even though I thought it wasn't going to with my second. book, I just didn't write it. And I was like, because it all just automatically comes together. You forgot to do the writing. Yeah, I forgot that you have to do loads of plodding to get it there. And I kept thinking, and it was a year late because I kept thinking, I remember with the last one, I didn't think I was going to get it done and then it was just done. And I remember that too hard. You remember that way too hard.

Yeah. It's really, but I think you're very good. Like you said, the shit first draft. To you, you don't even consider it a shit first draft. You're like, this is a plaid. Oh, no, it hurts me. It hurts me. It hurts.

Oh, it's agony. But you do it. you get through that. Because this is where low self-esteem can be utilized. I always tell myself, you're just trying to be mediocre. You're not trying to be the best. This isn't a competition. And it doesn't matter if no one reads it.

And then if one person reads it, it doesn't matter if they don't like it. I have to take off all of the stakes. Because if I'm trying to write well, that's gone. But that's really impressive because some people can't even get past that. They're like, well, it's shit, therefore it shouldn't exist. Yeah. No one, no one, no one, yeah, no one wants to read it. But that is what you heckle yourself when you're writing is no one cares.

And then I go, yeah, no one cares, I care. Or no one cares, I'm going to get done. But that's interesting about self-esteem because if you go, I care, sometimes with low self-esteem, you go, yeah, but you're worth nothing. So why does it matter that you care? Yeah. It only matters if someone more worthy than you cares. Would you ever have a thing?

Because of the deadline thing, the people pleasing. I promise them I'd do it so I will. Well, this is why my books got written. Yeah. As in like I did a proposal, which was not writing. And then someone said, we would like that book. And then they gave me a deadline. Because you had a very different experience to me because you pitched to lots of people

and then had like a bidding war for your book. Well, just, to be fair, I just wrote a proposal. But you didn't, you'd be all doing very dismissive because that was in itself quite a huge endeavor and achievement. I would say the proposal took a long time and I would also say to people, especially this is nonfiction which we both started in. The proposal can be like, I didn't have an Edinburgh show. I had a podcast which obviously again, very successful, doing very well, but how did you turn

that into a book? So the proposal work was a lot of work, I would say, almost six to eight months and of just like really like how how do I take this idea to someone? Lots of people had said to me, oh, you should write a book about this. And then they would come up with ideas. I was like, that's not what I can do. So I finally sat by myself and that's how I tricked myself.

This isn't a book. It's a proposal. I'm just going to write a proposal. And then I had got a book agent who was like, well, if you do write a proposal, I will send it to people. So I was like, okay, so that's again. And then she'll be like, where is it? You said you're going to do it.

And she's someone you really do not mess with. I love her. When she says, I expect it, you're like, okay, shit, I've got to do it. So then I wrote the proposal, and that's how I managed to get past it. And also seven years of doing a podcast that everybody had said, this is good, well done, keep going, you're doing really well. So I was like, oh, it feels justified. That there's an audience for this.

There's an audience for this. And the thing with grief, which I think is a thing I do all the time of like, it's okay to write if it's about grief because grief you're helping. So it's a bit of people-pleaser thing again. I can't just write what I feel like writing. Do you think that's why that was your first book? Yeah. It would have never been anything else.

I could never do anything just because I wanted to. Yeah. No, no, I have to be useful because my purpose is to be useful. And also it's a book that should exist in the world and you didn't have it. Yeah, I definitely wanted to write it. But I definitely think there was a part of me that felt like, again, I'm safe. If I write your book about grief, you can't be mean about it because it's about grief. Oh, yeah.

And it's useful rather than me being like, this is my fiction. This is what I want to write. And then being like, well, why are you? Why are you here? So, yeah, then the proposal. got sent out and then there was, yeah, there was lots of people who were very interested in buying the full book. But that is definitely the way I managed to do it. And then deadlines. Otherwise, if someone says, hey, what are you fancy working on? I can't. I need a deadline.

I need someone to say, we want this from you. I find the amorphous, like, oh, when people are like, I just had a book idea and I just sat and wrote it, I'm like, how? I think they'd give themselves deadlines. Yeah. But if you don't take yourself seriously. Also, I actually wondered about that, but the squirreling away and it being a secret. and it being your own thing. Yeah. I think sometimes that could be a real source of pleasure, that little squirrel, little squirrel face.

Yeah. I think... This is making me want to write, though. Oh, this is good. Are you getting that now? Yeah, it did. I just want to go, okay, thanks, see you later. Well, I think we should leave this episode here.

And I feel like there's more to say. We can come back to this. Yeah. This is the end of part one of our series on writing. The Origins of the Weirdos. Next up on Radio 4, it's Jeffrey Archer, reading out his favorite. I'm worried now. I'm worried that he's sponsoring you because this is like insects in the city when they've got product placement, but you're doing product placement in our book

podcast for Jeffrey fucking Archer. I took the money, Sarah. How much did he give you? 50p. 50p, sell a tape to a cupon from the newspaper.