Sara & Cariad's Weirdos Book Club - The Readers Talk Writing Part 2

Episode Date: August 21, 2025

In part two of these special episodes on writing Sara and Cariad (the readers) continue to discuss their own paths to books, writing and writing processes.Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you!Trigger warning: In this episode we mention abortion, self harm, death and loss of a child.Tickets for Sara's tour show I Am A Strange Gloop are available to buy from sarapascoe.co.ukWhere Did She Go? by Cariad Lloyd is available to buy here.Follow Sara & Cariad’s Weirdos Book Club on Instagram @saraandcariadsweirdosbookclub and Twitter @weirdosbookclub Recorded by Aniya Das and edited by Naomi Parnell for Plosive.Artwork by Welcome Studio.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Sarah Pasco. And I'm Carriead Lloyd. And we're weird about books. We love to read. We read too much. We talk too much. About the too much that we've read. Which is why we created the weirdos book club. A space for the lonely outsider to feel accepted and appreciated. Each week we're joined by amazing comedian guests and writer guests to discuss some wonderfully and crucially weird books, writing, reading and just generally being a weirdo. You don't even need to have read the books to join in. It will be a really interesting, wide-ranging conversation and maybe you'll want to read the book afterwards. We will share all the upcoming. books we're going to be discussing on our Instagram, Sarah and Carriead's Weirdo's Book Club. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you. Hello. Hello. Hi. He sounded so bored. Hello. Bored? You can't read my mood at all. No, I can't. That's a lot of the problems. I don't think I can read people very well. Maybe I'm not very good at projecting what I actually feel. That is a hundred percent true. Yeah. And I'm bad at reading and you also don't

project. Like you'll be like, obviously I was so angry and I'm like, you were laughing and joking. You haven't time you're like, I had absolutely hated these people. And I'd be like, but I thought they were your best friends. I know. Well, I shouldn't have taken them on holiday. Dumping from this. Right, jump from this. We are doing a second part of when we did our previous episode about writing. We ran up time. If you haven't listened to that, I don't think that will matter. Oh, well. Up to you. We've got different opinions. I don't think will matter, but sure, if you've got the time, go back. Oh, if you're someone who likes to do things Sequentially.

In order, please. Like me. Yes. I would like to go back. Yeah. But if you're Sarah and you don't care. Whereas if I've started a podcast, I'm like, don't make me come out, especially if I'm falling asleep, which let's face it, you are.

Go to sleep. Do I want the light of my screen to go back, scroll up, find when the first one is? It won't matter. It depends how far you're going. If I scroll back and it's like, oh, fucking out the seven seasons of this, no, no, no, no, no. No. It might be that far away. This is part two of a part one's available for three weeks ago.

What I mean is, I think it will make. I think it will make sense by itself. Oh, yeah, sure. It would make sense by itself. Anyway, so we did part one about writing, and we kind of talked about how we began writing, and I think we got up to... Poetry competition.

When we were children stuff, we were talking like children stuff. Yeah, but they can listen to that on episode one, so you don't need to recap, go back. We'll listen to it after. Do what you like. Donnie Darko was edited to put it out of order. So is this podcast in some ways.

So we went up to a point. I think we were talking about you writing your first book, Animal. Yeah, or pitching it, yeah. Pitching it and stuff. And then we felt like we'd run out of time about talking about how we write now. So this episode, as you can obviously tell, is about Pacey and, you know, it's about writing. Yeah.

And from this point, almost. So I think we talked a lot about animal. Yes, I think we did. But maybe we did we talk about, like, the success of Animal. I'd like to start, Sarah. With when Animal first came out. Yes. And what was that like of promoting a book?

I mean, I know times have changed. Yeah, embarrassing. You find it embarrassing? Yes. Talk more about that. I had written the book as truthfully as I could in that, yes, it's at points one version of events. And then when it comes to studies and things, sometimes it was very interpreted by me. And here is my opinion on this kind of stuff.

But what I hadn't foreseen is that if you write about something, let's say abortion, you might write about your abortion, and then someone in a book you might start talking to you about your abortion. Or your timeout interview might start with, Oh, so you didn't say that this was assault, but that man definitely assaulted you, things like that. And then suddenly you go, oh, that's what happens. If you write it down, you absolutely have pushed it into other people's ownership. The publicity. They will not, they will not think for a second about how, oh, it's very different to have written something over very many weeks, really choosing the words carefully. And then closing it going, that is done and finished now.

I've said exactly what I want to. And then they asked another question about it. So I found that really embarrassing. And I'm going to ask you the same question in sex. You must have had so much of a similar thing to this. But people sharing personal stories and feeling absolutely unqualified and feeling so bad for them. I remember doing the Hay Festival quite soon after the book came out. And it was a really long queue.

And they do this thing where they try and rush your cue so that you can get all of your books signed. So you can sign as many as possible for people. And I had mothers gripping my arm saying my daughter isn't eating or my daughter is hurting herself. Oh, God. And there's so much pain. And sometimes you share something of yourself to try and connect with people. But when that does connect, they might then go, and now what? Yeah.

And I think it's something that lots of authors, I definitely didn't expect that. Yeah, I suppose you didn't expect with animal because it wasn't like a book about your abortion. It was a book about lots of things. And I've done stand-up about those kind of topics before. But books really, really are. They're created in the mind of the person reading or listening to them. It's so much more personal exchange than seeing a stand-up. And also your stand-up is crafted and we're heading towards a joke.

There's a flippancy to ending with a joke in that way. This is why Brecht didn't allow them actually. Because it does dissipate tension. That is the kind of tangent I'm here for, guys. A little casual break dropping. You're listening to the right podcast. Wake up. She just dropped Brecht.

Come back in. God. Does the pretension ever stop, LePasco? Are we at the side of the stage, but you can see us. Oh, yeah, we are. We're talking, relaxing, drinking water. We're the only people, they have to edit out the facts on QI because there's too many, too many.

I guess that's what Aristotle meant in the poetics. We're the only people trying to win QI as well. Actually, that's not true. Some people are. We're the people who win it accidentally by quoting Shakespeare things that we've totally forgotten. This is not my experience of QI. This is you. No, not me.

But, anyway. But, so my experience was, I wrote something. I had no idea of reception. and hadn't foreseen what it would be like to have it physically exist and then exist without me being in it and then the whole journey of that to seeing it in a charity shop which I feel like is the lot then you go and now it is dead

that's the life cycle of it It's always a pound It's often a pound I don't think that's a reflection of quality I think it's much more about the mass market of reselling books Yeah did you buy it? If it was more

It was like 1899 Yeah 1899 for a paperback Did you sign it? You should sign it? No. Don't want to sign it? No. He's only could have given it two pounds.

I think that takes the value off sometimes. And waterstones it definitely does when they're trying to get rid of all the ones they make you go to the factory and sign. You know what they say? A signed copy is a sold copy. Not true. They'll still pulp it. So we both wrote nonfiction first of all. But mine came out much.

When did animal come out? Over two years ago now. What's that? I'm out of my. This is the one thing that's great is I now make money from it. If anyone does decide to buy it. because I'm out of my advance. Yeah.

So I never thought would ever happen. So buy that one first. Yeah. I'll tell you what, buy them all. Buy more. Sarah won't sign it though because that will devalue them in my opinion. I'm not signing it. It's going to devalue.

I'll write something else on there. I draw the little picture. I wrote you were not alone, 22. Yeah, but similar, I guess. But then I'd had a bit of a different experience because doing the podcast is very different to doing stand-up. So I'd already been talking about grief for, you know, seven, seven years at that point or something. So you'd already had people telling you their own stories, connecting with you in that way.

Yeah. So I'd already had that door open wide where you have chosen to talk about something publicly. When you made that choice, you didn't in any way think other people would talk to you about their staff publicly. Like, I know maybe it sounds naive, but when I started Griefcast in 2016, and you were one of the first guests, I... How was your practice one? I was the first. Actually, yes, you were my first, weren't you? Yeah, sorry, you were the first first.

You weren't, I don't think you were the first episode. Back to behind the scenes there. People are big fans of the podcast. I actually recorded Sarah Sturst. I didn't have any real deaths to talk about, so it was really a practice one. You did, because you talked about your grandparents. Obviously, I know some, but...

And now that's a big... I talked to loads of people about their grandparents. I know, but I was like seven. Anyway, I'm not... I'm just saying it was your practice fun. It was the first time I did it. Yes, yeah. I was like, oh, is this an idea that works?

And then we did it. And I was like, yeah, I think this works. Anyway, so I'd already had lots of people messaging, emails and doing live events with Griefcast and lots of people sharing their stories, which obviously, as you said, it's a real, it's like a privilege. And I think everyone has a tipping point. I think that you can cope with a certain amount. Like certainly the first couple of emails, I was like, oh, yeah, I would write back.

I'd be like, oh, I'm sorry to hear that. And that's, you know, or thank you for writing to me. And I think it just gets the point where there's like 100 emails or 100 Instagram messages. like with essays or really extreme griefs that you're like, I'm not qualified to deal with this at all rather than someone saying, oh, yeah, my dad, you can't do a quick message back. If someone writes and says, I'd like your trousers, easy-peasy,

if someone says, E-Tam, CNA, great gig in Croydon tonight, or even, double tap, yeah, exactly, or, you know, I've got tickets for Wednesday, can't come. There are things that are so easy to just, you know, you don't have to spell check it, like, you know, I'll forward that, or here's the person, or this is where the trousers are from. And then someone says,

my heart is ripped open. I have no skin on. How do I survive this? That's so much. That's so much. Well, when you're not trained, we have both of us, have English degrees. Yeah. But even if you were trained, if you were, I don't think, oh, Esther Perel is replying to all her messages for free, is she? Do you want to be married? Or do you want to be right? You don't need to listen to any podcasts, that's it. I know, I know. It's such a good impression. Do you want to be right? Sadly, they don't need that on SNL.

I do on my SNL. The other thing I realized when I started doing a lot of mental health work and I started working with a lot of palliative care nurses and palliative care doctors is or even grief psychotherapists, they have supervisors. So they would say, well, if I had a terrible case like you're telling me, I'd go to my supervisor and talk about it. But who supervises the supervisor? Well, who supervises the supervisor?

Our Lord. And God's like, I've got too many emails. I'm so busy, guys. I didn't expect when I killed my son for your sins. that it would like open up this time. All these prayers. Oh my God. So much to do.

I'm switching off comments. I've never even heard of that country. How long have you lived there? So, but they have supervisors. Or they have colleagues. And I think the thing is when you're writing a book or when you're podcasting about something serious, you're just by yourself. So I had my editor, Kate, who would sometimes sort of be with me if somebody was saying something.

But I found, it's so difficult, isn't it? because it's amazing that people are engaging. And I found that actually easier than when I had to promote the book. The book promotion was, I'd say it's fucking awful. It's really hard. Yeah, it was awful. And again, starting interviews with, see your dad, Peter, when he died, and you're like, good morning.

Just like a brief, I don't know, I feel like people should like prep you before. Or even I wonder, they would go, are you okay if we talk about your child? Yeah, or just even go, I like your shoes anyway. Like people would go, straight into interviews with like saying his name, talking about death. So you were a teenager. And also with book promotion, they haven't read the book quite often. Or they've read a bit of it as well.

So someone else, a researcher, has given them a set of questions. And so that's why there's such a disconnect, I think. It's the same with people who come on our podcast. Actually, I'll use an example of some that we know. Rachel Paris, when she was trying to get quotes for her book, as I would always endeavor to do, I read the book. And then I gave her a quote. and she went, I'm getting so many quotes back from friends who haven't read it.

Yeah, we're like, hilarious. Exactly. It's boring laughter. And it's like, it was hugely personal. It was really personal. It's really poignant. It's a brilliant book. Amazing essays.

And it's the whole spectrum of lots of experiences that she's had. And some of them are so funny, but some of them are really heartbreakingly sad about loss of a child. And so that's what happens. If someone hasn't read the thing and they've got a blurb or the back of it and they think they understand. Then they go, oh, you know, they just, you know. Well, this is it. I remember doing one television interview, and we'll say again, they, every interview I did was always like at the end of something

as if they couldn't face talking about death to the very, very, very end. And then they'll be like, so we've got Carriad here, we're going to talk about grief. Hopefully, we won't be too depressing, Carriad? And I thought, well, it is. And I said, well, it is death. Yeah.

I mean, I'll do my best. Yeah. And it sort of is my, you know, USPs that I can make grief not too depressing. But also, I'm not going to like sunshine. But it is funny as well, when it's on BBC News, and it's like, what do you think people are watching the news for, if not depression?

Like, have you taken in anything you've said? And this was like a Sunday. Like it wasn't even like, it wasn't even like, it wasn't like on would I lie to you being like, hey guys. But remember, we all die. Yeah. I tried and it didn't go very well. So yeah, I think the book, perhaps that's something interesting. Perhaps people don't always know like you don't have a lot of choice on your book promotion.

Do you know what I mean? Well, you're so lucky to have any. Yeah, you're grateful for any. So you and I are in an unusual position to most people promoting their first book because someone might know us from something else. Yeah. Podcast, a TV program, da, da, da, da. So we're really lucky. And that means from a PR perspective, certain.

doors and maybe more a jar than others. You might be able to go on a radio program. You might be able to go on someone else's podcast, those kind of things. But usually what they want to talk about is sort of separate from the book. Yeah, I did a lot of like comedy ones because friends were very kind and said you can come on. And then there'd be like this awkward moment. They were like, say your book about death. You could feel like it's not, I really struggled with that, which I do anyway in life,

with that balance of like, well, how do we do this in a funny light way, but also there is this other side of it. And it actually is quite a hard thing to blend. And I think your books do that as well. Shall I tell you who's amazing as an interviewer? She deserves a shout-out. Sam Baker. Annie McManus. Annie McManus.

Sam Baker is amazing. I did, I interviewed, Sam Baker interviewed me about my novel. Annie McMannis, I've listened to a few of hers and she just, no topic. Past guest. Past guest of our show. Past guest of our show. We'll just listen to her talking about anything. She's very good.

But also I think she's interested in people. So she leans in. And also she's a radio, like that radio kind of listening skill. But again, the thing is they're setting out is not like, oh, this show's supposed to be funny. It's like this show is supposed to be interesting and compelling and a good interview. And also, I want to know the answer to this first question. And then in response to that, I will have another question probably. That's such a rather than just a...

So you wrote it. And what tips do you have for getting overgrieve, Carriad? They always say... The third question. And what would you say to someone, what would you say to someone grieving? What do you think? The best advice for listeners at home. I'm like, who died? If anyone died while I listen to this program, what should you say? I'm like, who died? Like, who died? Was it the goldfish? Was it like their husband? Like, it's a big, there's different points of advice. So then I have to be like such a kill joy. It'd be like, well, all grief is different and it's very hard and there's not a universal experience. Although obviously there are some things that can help on it. Anyway. So yeah, I think book promo is a really weird fish. But also you don't want to moan about it because you need it and it's so great. And we're so lucky. because so many people struggled to get their books, you know, even through the kind of like first layer of stuff.

And so that, yeah, there's another depressing story of, oh, I put a book out and no one wanted to talk to me about it. So it is. It's a first world problem complaining about it. It's a first world problem. But I think we both are coming from, like, we didn't just write comedy books. We wrote stuff that it had, we were talking about something that is a serious topic in certain circles. And we were trying to talk about it in an irreverent. sometimes amusing but poignant way. So you see what I mean.

Like if we had just written comedy books, it would have been much easier. I was trying. I was, she will say it was a failure of a comedy book. I'm always trying to just do comedy. But I guess you have to acknowledge that's a big topic. Yes, no, I do. But I think that even with my stand-up comedy,

I always start from, I think I'm saying something funny. And it's only when it's interpreted that I think, oh, was there a serious point? I really didn't mean to put one in this time. And to be fair, Animal, is a very funny book and there's loads of stuff in Animal that is really funny and there is just that moment that I guess for, and I guess to be fair to journalists like, you know, that's

the angle, isn't it? It's like that's something they can grab onto in two seconds. They are like, we're a dying media. Stop trying to make us not make this interesting to people who aren't going to read your book and don't know who you are. A beached whale, like splash some water on them for God's sake. Come on, give them, give them your trauma. With them, you know what they call the furniture, like the headline of things. They just know that people click on certain things. So if they make it sound miserable, you know, like you're having a drama, there's something's gone wrong, there's a trauma that's unresolved, people will click on it. I never say that. My noise are like, she's laughing about death.

Oh, right, great. Because that's like, what? That's the shocker. Jessica Hines has this great story about how she was asked in an interview, she was promoting something else and she was asked about how it was like, it must have been at that point, like 15 years since they've made spaced. And what she said in a lot of, an interview really jollily is oh they said about something about seven pegs success and how things are well things are going from in hollywood like i think they asked a question that's like quite leading like are you jealous of him and she was like oh my god not jealous of him i just miss him so much um i used to get to see him every day and then they used that as the headline i just miss him so much

i used to get him every day and then it just so it's so completely makes you think a story is about something yeah yeah i've kicked on those things and you get on these things and you get there and you're like, oh, it's not about that. And there's nothing such as to say it at all, but their job is done. Yeah. But they made you interested in something. Well, like, it's a tangent over here to like, that's what media is. It's about eyeballs.

It's not about content. And that doesn't necessarily equate to book sales, as we both know. Like, it doesn't equate to like instant success. And it's so different to a friend telling you, especially when it's the second friend or the third friend saying, I'll tell you what I'm really enjoying at the moment. That is what you actually want. Someone pressing something into your hand. I mean, like, you have to read this.

It's completely different. Sit down right now. Now. I'm going to watch you. I've made, put the kettle on. I know you miss him so much. But just read this book. I'm not going to see him again.

Okay, he's gone. As someone he's worked in comedy, I'd be really annoyed if that was the headlight. You know, you don't want a boy you used to work with being like, oh, you miss me so much. You're like, oh, fuck off. No. It's a big headline, evening standard. I have a really successful career without you. Thank you very much.

And that's what I'm here talking about. I'm starring at the old Vic. Oh. I miss him so much. Every single day I think of Simon. Yeah. When the book was out, it is still out. You can buy it in paperback, maybe.

Yes, so that whole process, how did it influence what you wanted to write next? Oh, completely, because I was like, I was like, I'm not going to write about my personal trauma. And also, the other thing that maybe we have mentioned before of, like, having to do your audiobook of your own personal trauma. That was one of the worst, I think it's like when I have like grief moments. And that was like one of the worst grief moments of like the book. if you haven't read it, sure, that's okay. The book is like, vignettes are like memories of like my dad getting diagnosed with cancer, like being in the room when he died, next to essays of like how to cope with this or why

the five stages are bullshit or Victorians did funerals like this and that's why we do them right now. So it's like irreverent, but with personal stories. And when I wrote, exactly like you said, when I wrote them, I knew my readers, people listened to the grief cast, needed pure honesty because when you're talking about grief, you need to know the truth of how someone feels so that you can feel connected and better about your own grief. That's why the grief class worked. So I wrote and went to a very horrible place of like,

I have to remember things I haven't remembered. Who wants to remember being 15 and being told your dad has cancer? It's not my favourite memory. And you're writing and it's a sign of a reflection of how deep you're going. It's like you remember what was going on his plate? Yeah, yeah. The food, the smells. Visceral memories.

Where he's sitting in your living room. it's so clearly someone standing there again reliving a memory. And it's, thanks to therapy, I can say this. It's like it's traumatic. It's really traumatic. You know, his death was traumatic and it was quick and all of this horrible stuff that I've talked about a lot. So then you write that and you weep as you write.

You know, you're like, oh! And you feel, this is the thing. You feel better for writing it. You think, oh. Yeah, that is why we keep diaries. It's very therapeutic. I was like, you know what? It was good to remember that.

It's good to look at it from this point of view. It's good to see the child that I was and what I didn't understand. And then you have to go into a recording studio in London and sit there with someone who was very kind and then read your worst ever day. Like find your diary entry is like the worst, most hideous moment of your like, do you just do that sentence again?

You've actually mispronounce properly three times. So we could just... It was a bit of a pop on your dad's name. You're like, okay. I took a conquer that my daughter gave me that had like a dip in the middle and like so you could put your thumb in it it was like a really like

can you threw it at the person through it their head no I held it the entire time and I just like I just sort of like rubbed my thumb on this conquer and then she'd give me a well she hadn't given me I stole a tiny playmable unicorn

and I put that on the desk and I put something else that my son had given me and I basically surrounded myself with like talismans to or you know transitional objects to cope with it and yeah Rob Delaney left a very sweet message on when I posted about doing the audiobook and he was like oh I can't you like you

like you know just taking that conker and again it was something that I hadn't thought was a really sad thing to do I just thought that's a good idea I take conker that's nice I've got a conker that's really funny and then other people would be like fuck that must have been really traumatic for you that you had to take a conquer into a room and you're like oh yeah I guess I was sad so yeah the audiobook is also but again how fucking privileged do we that we got to do our own audio books I know there are authors who they don't like their accent or don't They don't even get an audio book. They didn't get a given one.

This is not complaining. It's explaining the truth of a process. Yeah, I just want to pull back the curtain behind the actor's studio. But it's definitely not complaining because I feel so lucky. But I guess both of us came at a personal cost. Like we did have to like open a vein to get that book deal in a way. I wouldn't have got it had I not been willing to be that honest. Yeah.

And I think that's, if I was going to have my career over again, being a 40 year old now. You can. I empower you, Sarah. There would be points. I actually wonder how much I would share of things. Interesting. Because when I, lots of people I admire, I watch them draw boundaries about what isn't for consumption. And because stand up was me talking about myself and then it became successful and that was the thing I was selling.

I never questioned what of me isn't for everyone. What is it for me isn't? I'm attempting to make myself entertaining for you. And there's a. But don't you think that comes from, you were like that off, you were like that before you did stand up. If we were in a group of people, you would make a joke about yourself or something you'd done. And that was, you got laughs. Like both of us would get laugh from self-deprecatingness.

Or being like, oh, guess what? Silly thing I just did. And so then you get to stand on a stage. From roles in our family needed attention. Because I think that's the clip tonight for me. It's like, how am I going to get everyone in here to look at me? I need to conquer. Sarah's for our family.

Sorry, yeah. No, no, no. But just just a brief thing. There is that that's, and that's common for most, if not every single comedian. Interestingly, one of my very dear friends who passed away, Kimberly St. John, who was an amazing palliative care nurse, who changed how death was being talked about in this country. She was so incredible. And both, I have a mutual friend, Anna Lyons, who runs life death, whatever, who also has a brilliant grief book, always said the amazing thing about her was her boundaries. She had such clear boundaries as a palliative care nurse. And I think that's really interesting. Like, she had this read, like, if you did an event with her about grief, she would be like, that's six o'clock, I'm done. I'm going home for my life. just so funny the idea she's like okay um if you can't die in the next 15 minutes i will be clocking off i've got really strong boundaries okay so someone else will be here with people that she like no because i just loved her so much but people but with that idea of like because my job is so hard and i have to

look after people in their most fun moments there's a very clear boundary to this grief work i'm doing yeah and i was exactly the same as you of like what do you mean a clear boundary what do you mean you're not talking to people over and over and over again at events i've been at events you know this sounds so pathetic, but like, you haven't got a drink of water, you've stayed two hours late because you're talking to people about their grief and you're shaking because you're like, fuck, I'm not handling this very well. And it was Kim that made me think, oh, right, I could say, sorry,

I need a moment because I just had to talk about my dad's death for an hour in front of 200 people. But yeah, I think that's, what would you take back? I haven't thought about it too hard because I can't do it. But I just wonder. So things like podcasting, actually, you go on a podcast You look like this

emotional sharing we're doing now but when they start happening so I started doing stand-up comedy podcasting started you're not performing something you've written you're answering questions

you haven't thought about you were giving away chunks of yourself your biography you know let's say you've talked about a boyfriend this contains no trauma for me or like no

not even any awkwardness but you're talking about your boyfriend your current relationship you're not thinking you won't be with him in 10 years you might this might still exist out there in public John and I did an episode of Mock the Week together, obviously not a podcast.

That will be repeated on Dave. We broke up a decade ago almost. I can't be 10 years, maybe it's seven years, eight years ago. That will be repeated on Dave and I will have grandchildren with someone else. And this clip will now make a Daily Mail article because I'll be like, I will never get over the mock the week that I did with my ex-boyfriend. Yeah. Well, sometimes when it is repeated, I get messages saying you should break up with him. And I'm like, I should.

Eight years ago, thank you. You're a little bit too late, but thank you for joining the party. So look, there are things about existing in the media that you don't exist. You don't understand. I'm glad that I had children much later, so I at least understand, if something's on YouTube, it exists forever. It will exist when they are at school. But to be careful what I say about them.

Or at least that they have absolute deniability about, not specifically saying one of, you know, here's their name, they did this, not making up lies about them, that kind of stuff. Whereas that wouldn't have occurred to me at a point where I was. I was just so hungry, horny for attention, that I, it would just splurge out of me. I also think me and you came from a place of like, like who, if I tell you this funny story about this terrible job I did, who would be bothered by this? Like, who would be bothered by little old me?

And I have got, we both have gotten to trouble for saying things. I've really upset people. I've really upset someone that I went on a holiday with when I was 18, saying on a podcast years later. And you, you take a moment from their life and you reframe it to make fun of it or them. I've upset one of our mutual. friends so badly in a story I just thought was like mine. I didn't realize that someone would sit in the audience and go, oh wow, you hate me. It's, and comedy is spiteful. Even, I would say, I'm not, I'm not a nasty comic, but it can really devastate people, can be so hurtful. And

it was a currency I was just spending without ever thinking, should I? But it's, that's what I mean, it's hard when to you, it's not a thing, like you said, like to you, it, and again, maybe this comes back to what we said about reading our own emotions. Or like what you're portraying, like it's a flipping thing, it's okay. And then having to understand, like you said, people have completely different narratives about things. I wouldn't excuse myself because it's thoughtlessness. It isn't, I have thought about it and I thought it was okay. I haven't thought about it because I am not used to having to be considerate.

And when I read, because it's a real huge discussion point, how much when authors are being in inverted commas truthful, the sort path, for instance. Check out our Patreon for our hot tea on that. Check out our Patreon on the supper. But anything where someone is, you know, baby reindeer, another reason example, the cat story, the cat man. Oh yeah. That one in the New Yorker. I was going to say Cat bin lady was different. Cat bin lady. My novel coming out next year. See things from her point of view, okay? The cat, what is that story? Yeah, the New Yorker thing. Catman, yeah. But anyway,

Catbin lady also suffered greatly. Yes. You're going to upset cat people. She's joking. She's joking. She didn't know. She's joking, okay? No, she shouldn't have done that. It was awful. Yes, yes. Absolutely one-sided.

Cat was right. She was wrong. That was right. Bin was wrong. A lady was wrong. I got a book deal out of it. I hope so. And I love that book.

Yeah, Bob. There is a Bob the Cat book. That's who it was. It wasn't. It was just pretending. It was the same cat. Come back. Come back.

That's how he got big. It's interesting that you say thoughtlessness. It's like when I read things, people going, what right does the artist have to tell their version? It's like, you have the right to make your art, but you absolutely are not thinking about people in it. And when you do, it's caveat town and no one wants to read it. When you keep going. And this is the other person's point of view. And just have to add that they probably thought this. And also, I just have to remind you, the memory is unreliable as a

it's hard, isn't it? I think when I've done it, it hasn't been thoughtlessness. Often it's been complete disorganisation of not, I did something on a podcast. And I'm just thinking for ages, I should tell that person. And then needing it, the podcast to go out and being like, oh shit, I didn't tell it, so I'm giving them an hour because that's when I fucked up very badly of being like, oh, I thought I'd checked. I didn't send the email, like that kind of level of like absolutely knowing I should and then never get my fucking arcing gear.

That's really hard, but that feeling of dread, especially if you've got ADHD, just slows you down because you actually know you've done the bad thing. It's not being sorted enough to just, again, like ADHD with two small children of being like one o'clock in the morning going, I didn't message them. I didn't message them and say, I need to check that with you.

This is so fucked. And even and, but in a way, thoughtlessness to me feels like, at least you were like, well, I didn't think. I was like, I thought. And I still didn't do it. That feels so much shittier because you're like, oh yeah, when it happened at the time of recording, I thought, shouldn't say this. And I, and this is going to be bad.

Must check with that person. And then just didn't get myself organized stuff to go, hey, by the way, I've done this thing. I think that's a much nicer way to be. I think it's an admin error, an oversight. But it's a pathetic. It's so pathetic. It's not pathetic. it's really human, whereas what I think is, and here would be an example, I've been told a

secret, they tell me not to tell anyone. You're so bad with secrets. And I have a very small voice going, didn't she say this was a secret? And then, who cares if it's funny? I know. Or who cares if no one else around the table knows this? And who cares if I want to tell everyone. Yeah. Yeah. You get a lot of dopamine, I think, from being the person with the secret. Oh, because it's attention. Because it's real focus from the audience. Yeah. That reaction, what I live for. Yeah, you really do love it when everyone's like, And it's a hot, juicy piece of gossip. Yeah.

I think that's why the book that I will write one day that will so well will be the secrets. As in, I've got shit on most people. You've got some shit, baby. Just 70, 75, that will be my swung song. And it'll be right, oh, do you really want to know what Ricky Jervais said over there? And do you want to know what they said about Ricky Javis? Chapter 1.

Is it just called what people said about Ricky Javis? That's chapter 1 is that, yeah. So when you came to writing fiction, Yeah. So how many non-fiction did you do? Two. Two. Sex power money and animal. Read sex power money first.

Go back. That's how Sarah likes to do it. She doesn't want you to read them in order. And then you did Weirdo. Yeah. And what was that change like writing fiction? Well, I should add, I did pitch a third non-fiction. Oh, you did?

And they didn't want it. Oh, I'll write it one day. Was it about Ricketts? It was about murder. Oh, yes, I do remember. Yes, sorry. And that is the third book in the trilogy in terms of it. there's a lot of stuff to talk about gender and murder.

I probably still will write one one day, but it was getting the negative sort of responses from that. I was asked a very serious question, which is pertinent, which was why should a comedian write a book about such a potentially painful topic for people. Isn't that funny that wasn't asked for abortion or death or grief? But because I have had an abortion and you have her grief. So actually the question, I wasn't told no, I was asked, why are you not a criminologist? And actually the answer is there is a book that I would like to read that doesn't exist about certain things.

And that's quite often you go, that's why you write it. But I also thought, okay, this is going to be a really hard sell at this point because my job is flippant. And so. And then also we just talked about getting difficult messages and holding space for these people. Yes. Yeah. If you write a book about matter, that is, yeah. Yeah. That's going to be a lot of very difficult conversations.

With only voyeuristic interest. Yeah, yeah. And so everything is just a name or a term or anything you've read about. Yes, interesting. With Sex Power Money, I wrote about transactional sex. And that involved a year of interviewing people because I knew nothing and my opinions were wrong. Yeah. When I started it.

And if I had just, and probably the same thing would have happened in this third book. So there will also come a point in my life who will have more time to dedicate to writing. It won't be a, it's not a side hustle necessarily. But it is a thing where I switch one focus. off and do the other one. Yeah. Whereas they'll come upon a point I'll write more fully. And actually a novel can be more flexible fitting in because you don't have to research.

Yeah, that's true. Yeah, you can just write. So then you came to write Weirdo. Yeah. Sarah, as a busy working mum, I'm a busy working mum of two, are women funny? How do you write? Just an opinion. Just a minute.

No. No. They're so dull. I don't think they've ever laughed at one. One. Like, is that bad? I can't remember laughing at one. I would remember.

Would I have cracked a smile? A politeness, maybe. That's what Jemaine Greer said once. Do you remember? I know. Of course I remember. She said, well, I've never laughed at one. They're not funny.

No. No, she says, I'm funny. She wrote a whole article. She bent it. She wrote a whole article. It's still on the internet. So good. Well, she leaned more into the fact that the reason people liked her and thought she was funny

is because she was more like a man. And it's like, you have failed so astronomically. At the game you started. At your job. You fucking set the, Test pieces out, mate. You've just checkmated yourself. I don't think we should all have the vote.

I'm just saying I should be allowed to choose his prime minister. I'm like, my brain is probably like a man's. So I'm all right. I feel like you guys are all. Pull on the ladder. I should have equal rights. I'm more like them. Tara, it's a busy working mum of team.

How do you write? How do you find the time? People always say to us, one of our main comments is, how are you reading so much? How are you writing so much? Because most people are struggling for time. We all are. They want to find out that there is a,

secret room that stops time before martyr. And the answer is, since I've had children, I've been able to write less and less. I got one novel written when my first child was very small. I also were sort of manic with postpartum. You wrote that book then. And it's reflected in the book my mental state at the time, which is incredibly isolated, lonely and mad. But the characters, the character is in a very different point of her life. And I had this sort of alter reality going on.

Trying to write now is a hundred times harder with two and with them being older. reading I can do a little bit after bedtime we can do a little bit on a train sometimes I don't have the focus for proper writing so the answer is I'm finding it really hard really really hard and I'm very much slowed down and the only thing I'm trying to do is not push myself to have poorer quality

and still have output one thing I guess is again privilege I'm lucky I make money from stand-up that I can just go this is going to take me a lot longer because I don't have very much time I'm afraid that's my sad answer Yeah, that's all you can do, isn't it?

It's just like it just takes the time it takes. How are you balancing it? The juggle is real. Oh, the struggle. Yeah, two kids is very difficult. When they go to school, they finish at 3.30. Don't know anyone told you this? So if you remember going to school,

and that is not when work finishes, should be when work finishes. I actually, the one thing I will say is that I write more than I ever did before I had kids. Like, and I read once an interview with Catlin Moran who was like, oh, kids is the greatest like deadline I've ever had. Like you have to get it done in school hours. And then that didn't work for me and I felt ashamed of like, why is this not working for me? Because, and again, maybe it's a neurodiverse thing.

Like, I will waste a whole day. I will just potter around for a whole fucking day. And then I'm like, it's 3 o'clock. I'm ready to start writing. But you knew that you didn't have that time. But I still do write more than when I had all day. I feel like the constraint of a child might make me right an hour in the evening. Yeah.

Well, actually, I think that the period of childhood isn't the school bit when you've got all day till three. It's that bit where you've dropped them off. You've got 90 minutes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember that's what Bridget Christie said to me before I had children. She's like, you've paid for the child care. You sit down in the coffee shop. Why the fuck would you check your emails?

Well, that's what Catlamranter, but I do check my emails. So I don't, I think that's, that is helpful if I said that works for you, but it doesn't work for me. I sit down and I check my emails because I'm overwhelmed. and someone's going, you've got 90 minutes. Also, it must be neurodiversity because if you need the dopamine to get started, Christine has to clean the kitchen.

Yeah, have to clean. And it's like, place has to be clean. Just go upstairs, we'll do this tonight. And he cannot. And actually he has to do it before bed to start the next day. He just needs watching someone with ADHD, knowing that they procrastinate and they're eating into their useful time,

but they don't have the petrol. But this is the reframe. You have to reframe. You're not eating into your time. This is what you have to. do. Okay. So the equivalent... I'm not a useful wife to him. Yeah, no. You're eating into your time. Because someone who can sit down and go, I've got, right, 60 minutes, boom, go, great. I can't do that. So rather than berate myself, I have to accept, like you just said, things take longer. So if I have 60 minutes, I can do actually really efficiently do all my emails in 60 minutes. That's done. If I have a day, I'm going to put a wash on, I'm going to tidy up the house. I'm going to reply to some WhatsApp. I'm going to start researching something.

People reply to those emails. That's why I don't write to them. If you answer them once, they will come back to you again. They've got something else to say. They've got another question. I don't reply to any of them. Yeah, I notice. But what I mean is like, I now accept, like you now accept writing a book takes longer.

I now accept 60 minutes is not going to be like, oh yeah, I slammed it because that's all I had. It's just not going to work. So if I need to tidy the kitchen rather than being like, you fucking idiot, you need to tidy the kitchen. It's like, tidy the kitchen. Yeah. And then sit down. And actually I will get fuckloads done in 20 minutes. Yeah.

Because I'm about to pick, I have to stop at three. And I'll be like, oh, I've done everything. Okay. And that's probably the same as someone's hour in a coffee shop. Yeah. Although my friend of the pod, Megan said, try and find the pot. She said to me the other day, try and find the like gaps when you least expect them. So after drop off, yeah, straight to a coffee shop, just do half an hour.

Rather than being like, you've got to work that whole 60 minutes so you're eating your time. Yeah. Can you do 10 minutes here? Can you do 10 minutes? Well, you know, they're just doing so. Yeah, so I'm also trying to find pockets with no judgment. I've not like, well, you didn't do 60, you only did 20. Like, I did 20.

That's pretty good. It's inching towards the finish line. And I wrote, I did something the other day, I was writing something. I thought, this pile of shit. But the entire time I was like, but it's just good that you've written it down. Yeah, really good. It's just good that you've written down. Yeah.

So even though this entire hour is a pile of shit. I just watched the SNL. documentary, which is a really great watch if you're into SNL for whatever reason. And one of the female writers on it, she's calling it the Vomit Draft. Oh, yes. And then you pick out the corn. Is it Rachel Spivey or is it Dratch? Rachel Draughts says that. Maybe they all use the term in the SNL. Emily Spivey is one of the writers. You just have to get it out. Yeah. And it is a form of vomiting and vomit's not pretty. Yeah. Amy Poehler on her amazing podcast, Goodhang, was talking with someone from S&L about being in the lip. Maybe it was Seth.

Myers being left with Emily Spivey he's a big Snell writer and he was like he was like year three or something and he said when does it get better and she was like I've been here nine years and it's like you never think you've got it basically you never think your first draft is great like yeah it's never

what a great place to end well actually their episode on writing that's what it's showing because obviously they're doing it in a really really highly pressurised environment but essentially the cycle that it's five days one of those days they don't get to sleep and they have to create something from nothing

over and over again with no parameters of safety It's really good for anyone I wants to write even if it's not sketch comedy I feel like we can do part three Maybe we will on something else Because we still didn't get to other writing We can do part three Maybe about our current projects That'll be number three

Current projects And obviously some stuff We'll just put on the Patreon guys Yeah I don't know if you've picked up on our subliminal messaging guys We would love you to join us on Patreon Free Bean Salad have like a Patreon song

Don't talk about their Patreon I know sorry Don't join that If any of you join Patreon on for three bean salad. Having never listened to it or knowing what it is, I love three bean salad so much. But they have a good song because Ben does all these great songs and then people send in their versions of the song.

And I was like, but we can't do it. You want a song? But we can't do it? Why can't we do a song? Is Ben something like a properly good like? Why don't you get your husband Ben to play as a guitar song and we'll write some book lyrics? All right. And then we can then we could always change the song for the books we're doing.

Okay. Different classics. All right. Let's do that. Because they've got like, they've got theme songs, theme tunes for everything. I once wrote a song about Hamlet to the tune of the Fresh Pinst. of Bel Air. I think I remember this. Once was a story, all about how my life got twist turned upside down.

If I had to take him in, just sit right there. I'd tell you all about how I killed my uncle and became his ear. Okay, more of that on the Patreon. Thank you for listening. West Elsinore, born and raised. In the graveyard is where I spend most of my days.