Sara & Cariad's Weirdos Book Club - The Warlock Effect by Jeremy Dyson and Andy Nyman

Episode Date: July 25, 2024

This week's book guest is The Warlock Effect by Jeremy Dyson and Andy Nyman.Sara and Cariad are joined by actor, writer, performer and generally magic man Andy Nyman to discuss tricks, David Blaine, cakes, Derren Brown, duping, and 120's London.Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you!The Warlock Effect is available to buy here or on Apple Books here.You can find Andy on Instagram: @andythediamondYou can get tickets to see Andy in Hello, Dolly! at The London Palladium here.Sara’s debut novel Weirdo is published by Faber & Faber and is available to buy here.Cariad’s book You Are Not Alone is published by Bloomsbury and is available to buy here.Follow Sara & Cariad’s Weirdos Book Club on Instagram @saraandcariadsweirdosbookclub and Twitter @weirdosbookclub Recorded and edited by Naomi Parnell for Plosive.Artwork by Welcome Studio.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Sarah Pasco. Hello, I'm Carriad Lloyd. And we're weird about books. We love to read. We read too much. We talk too much. About the too much that we've read. Which is why we've created the Weirdos Book Club.

Join us. A space for the lonely outsider to feel accepted and appreciated. A place for the person who'd love to be in a real book club, but doesn't like wine or nibbles. Or being around other people. Is that you? Join us. Check out our Instagram at Sarah and Carriad's Weirdo's Book Club for the upcoming books we're going to be discussing. You can read along and share your opinions.

Or just skulk around in your raincoat like the weirdo you are. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you. This week's book guest is The Warlock Effect by Andy Nyman and Jeremy Dyson. What's it about? London's most famous magician Louis Warlock becomes embroiled in international espionage. What qualifies it for the weirdos book club? Well, what could be weirder than a magician.

In this episode, we discuss tricks. Duping. David Blaine. Cakes. 1950s Soho. And think of a card, any card. Joining this this week is Andy Nyman. Andy is a magical man and performer.

He's an actor. He's a singer. He's a dancer. He wrote ghost stories, which he also starred in. He made the film of ghost stories. He has worked with Darren Brown for 24 years. He knows every magic trick in the book. And now he's written this incredible book, which is now out in paperback.

Welcome to the show. Andy Nyman in the recording studio. Very excited to have you here. Thank you so much. You're a very busy person. I am a bit busy. A very busy, successful person who does lots of different things. We've nabjou.

We appreciate you coming in to just talk about your book section of your life. I appreciate something as well. I'll start with a thank you. Thank you for making this book, The Warlock Effect, not as scary as ghost story. Oh my God. When she said you were coming, I was like, oh, great. We were worried, Andy. It's going to be scary.

Called the Warlock Effect, could be scary. Well, Camer texted me from the first page. She went, just to warn you, it's going to be scary. I just thought it would be. And then this front cover, I was like, could be. Could be a bit scary. I didn't notice until today how scary those hands are. Yeah, no, I saw the hands immediately.

And I was like, because I know you and Jeremy, and I thought, oh, God. And I'm very scared of everything. But the beginning portion, I felt so in love with the characters, especially the central character. Yes, Louis Warlock, who I really genuinely cared about. I really cared about Larry. So then when the huge plot things happen, you're desperately on his side. And I would say it's kind of in the vein of like a proper good adventure story. That was a big thing for us.

after ghost stories, after the film of ghost stories, we were sort of debating what to do. And this, Jeremy had sort of had a version of this idea, simmering away. So this was going to be our next film. And we sort of wrote up the plot and then spoke to a producer and realized, well, this is really, really expensive. It does cross Europe at some point,

which is an expensive film. Yeah. No producer's going to love that. And it's set in so. her in 1952. So they sort of said, well, that's going to be a lot. So it sort of went on the backburn and we wrote something else. And then just before lockdown, an editor at Hodder came to Jeremy and said,

we're looking for something about magic, maybe with recurring characters. Do you have anything? And Jeremy sort of said, you know what? I think we do. So came to me and said, should we write a novel? Why were they looking for something about magic? I mean, I'm just interested in the publishing industry, if they have meetings, like, we've got nothing in the magic slate.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Make sure there's characters, go out and find it, Stephen. On it, I'm on it. I'm ringing Andy Lyman now. So, yeah, I don't really know. I mean, someone had just done some sort of blue sky thinking or looked at, you know, Harry Potter sales.

There's a gap in the market. Yeah. Yeah, Harry Potter fans are all 35 and desperate for something to read. Exactly. So, Jeremy, and I then said, okay, well, let's, we sort of pitch them what this was and they loved the idea. And then lockdown happened. So it was sort of, it honestly kept me and Jeremy sane.

Yeah. It was the most brilliant thing to do. And exactly what you said, Carriette is it was our, rather than going down the supernatural route again, we wanted to create something that was our version of sort of Raiders or the 39 steps, you know, just one of. of those things, I mean, the thing we love about ghost stories that we're very excited about with Warlock effect as well is that you start in one place and you sort of think, oh, I sort of know what this is. Yeah. And you keep, it just keeps slipping away from you and without giving anything away.

I mean, one of the things actually that surprised us about the book, actually, by the time we'd got to the end of it and finished it is it's the sort of love story of it, a thing. That was the thing that really took us by surprise. Yeah, and as a reader, actually, I was skeptical of it because quite often that's something you can't trust. If someone seems the most trustworthy. Wait until you find out. That's because you've got a murder mystery brain,

and I've got, I think, more historical romance brains. I was absolutely like, of course, of course, this love is pure. I don't have a murder mystery being. All right, wait and see. Yeah. Right. You're just more cynical with relationships. Because I just don't like women, I guess.

It always comes up. I wanted to ask, because I can't imagine writing long form with somebody. How does that work? I want to know, so do you sit in the same room sometimes? Well, Barry Mama are in lockdown. Yes. So you weren't in the same bubble. No, we weren't.

Can you imagine saying to our families, okay. We've just seen you. We think this is only going to be a few weeks. So me and Jeremy are going to go to a cotie. We'll be back soon. We'll be back soon. Don't worry. We'll Zoom you.

It's fine. Exactly. Fifteen months later, beards down here. Well, we had written over sort of Zoom-ish. No, it wasn't Zoom, but a version of, for quite a few years because Jeremy is in Yorkshire and I'm in London.

So, and also you very quickly realize every time it's like, well, I'll come up and write to you. And that means you're going away from your wife and kids or Jeremy coming down to me. and it's $170 quid on the bus. Don't we not on the train yet? He's very, very old fashion in his way.

You know. He's well enough to get us first half. And they're all like 45 minute journeys, and that's when the money adds up. Each journey is like 150. A single to London, please. So see my friend Dandy. I assume that's how he talks.

He does. So you just realised that's just not it's sustainable. So we'd been writing over Zoomish for ages. And going into doing a novel, because full disclosure, as I have said to you, off Mike, I am not a huge reader. And I was very daunted by the idea of how on earth do you write a novel. And Jeremy very sweetly sort of said to me,

that's exactly what I felt when we were writing a play. You know, and I was like, ah, it's going to be fine. It's just like creating anything else. It's just slightly different rules, and you'll learn that as we go along. And Jeremy basically said exactly the same going into the novel. It's like, look, we're just creating a story. So what we basically did was plotted it. Even how does that work?

Do you do work separately and then tell each other of your ideas? Or do you separate it? You sit at the same document. So what we do, yeah. So we use a thing called writer duet, which is a brilliant piece of sort of collaborative software. It's sort of final draft. but on a cloud. But honestly what we do is we just talk for hours,

not about what do we think Louis Warlock would do. You know, we either talk about, when we know it's going to be this world, we'll talk a bit about that. But then we'll talk about the news, our families, or anything. Because we've been best friends since we were 15. So you're just talking about your life. And it's, as it would be with you two, a completely safe space.

you're talking in the most unguarded, honest way about anything and everything that's going on in your life, going on in the world. And it's absolutely incredible that you'll suddenly go, God, you know what? If Louis, what if he felt that, you know, and it's absolutely incredible. We've been writing for, well, since 2009, that has absolutely been the way it works for us. And then, of course, within that, this is a world, this world of Soho and magic and variety is a world that we just adore. And so that comes across a lot. Yeah. Yeah.

Like the love of magic and the magicians and that 1950s coffee bars in Soho. Yeah. And the members' clubs in that time. And actually, we do have to talk about the cake shop. Oh, Maison Berto. Because the only reason I know about that cake shop. It's because Carriad is such a big cake fan. Well, if you have never been, I mean, it's still there.

It's been there since, I think, about 1850. Yeah, it's mad. Oh, is it that. Oh, my God. And it is the, I mean, Soho was like this. It is not anymore. They are baking on the premises from like three, four in the morning, all those quass on and everything is made in the upstairs.

It all gets brought down. I mean, it's the most remarkable. place. It's incredible. So we just loved that and wanted to make that where the brains trust, as they're called, which is Louis Warlock. So should, should I just say a bit about what it is? Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. So 1950, Britain's favorite magician is a guy called Louis Warlock, whose real name is Ludwig Weinshank, who didn't come over on exactly the kind of transport, but fled Nazi Germany and came over as a young Jewish boy. He becomes this hugely popular magician who's very famous on the radio, as people were then, and he has his team, the

brains trust, who help him create magical effects and these great big publicity stunts, which again, there's so much truth within this book. So he does these amazing publicity stunts, and he gets spotted by the British Secret Service. Call him in, this is no great, these are no spoils by the British Secret Service, bring him in. and say we are in trouble. There is a Soviet plot and we need your lateral magical thinking to help us get around this

because the very fabric of our nation is sort of in danger. And what we already know about the character of Louis Warlock is that, because I mean there would be characters who wouldn't find that appealing. Oh yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. But his brain, his intelligence, the way he wants to work out problems. Yeah.

It means that actually he's in with both feet, isn't he? Oh, absolutely. Just jumping straight in. And also. Not going to thinking, it could be dangerous. Yeah, no, great. Bring it on. And also another really important part of that is he's a Jewish kid who has been embraced by this country, you know, as an immigrant.

And this country has come to him and said, can you help? And he feels a responsibility to a genuine, sincere. here, thank you for housing me, I'm here. What can I do? That's another part of that cocktail. Well, anyway, needless to say, none of this goes where you. It has that James Bond vibe, but it's very interesting and a clever choice to make your main character, not the suave, cool spy, but like you said, this outsider that's always felt like he didn't quite fit in. And I didn't know if there is an overlap with spires and magicians. Well, not so much, I mean a little of spies, but certainly in Warcraft, there has absolutely been lots of famously, a few big illusionists who were used in terms of camouflage techniques in terms of literally hiding tanks and stuff for aerial photography.

And then lots of magical thinking within. That's one of the incredible things about magic. Because Jeremy and I, that's one of the things that brought us together as 15-year-olds was Jeremy did magic. I loved magic. And then over the years, obviously, I've worked with Darren Brown for 20 years or whatever. Because this could look a little bit like Darren Brown is sort of working an espionage. That's kind of what you're telling us in a round about way. Give us a wink.

We know. We know. People seem to think that magic, understandably, is just about, oh, how you make the coin vanish or how you handle the thing. It really truly isn't. That is one set of the skills. But the lateral thinking, the magical thinking, the way to know how to psychologically misdirect, how to create a situation that means I'll end up sitting in that seat and you two would sit. You know, all of those techniques.

Because you letters into so much of it, very cleverly with, you know, the direct address from Louis, sort of telling us how things are done, which is something that the audience never. There was one trick in there. So we should say there's sort of story plot bit and then there's excerpts from Louis' book that sort of interspers is interspers with the chapters. And there was one bit which I was like,

I have never in my life known how they've done that. And you sort of reveal this trick. And I was like, I cannot believe I'm an idiot. No, you're not an idiot. But it was so nice to be like, of course that's what's happening in that trick. But of course you have the thing that you practice and the person performing practices.

But they also have to learn to perform is in a way where the audience doesn't doubt. Yeah, yeah, the showmanship of it, I found really interesting. Isn't it about slickness as much as you think? No, no. Leading them on a journey. Absolutely. And them thinking, I'm taking myself.

Really brilliant stand-ups, what they do is it looks like they've just thought it for the first time. It's the first time they've said it out loud. Yeah. And when you watch someone, you adore, pretending that for like, and you've seen them do it five times before, with the exact same wording, there can be a different intonation. it's of the room, but going that's the skill. It's not just telling a joke.

It's duping an audience member who thinks that's the first time you've said it. And that's what is with Louis, isn't it? It's like duping the audience to like, I've never done this before. I don't have it at work. Who knows? It might go wrong. Tonight's the night it's gone wrong. Yeah, yeah.

Let's see if we can salvage something. It's funny to me that you say duping an audience because I hear that and I just think that isn't duping them at all. That is magic. Yeah, yeah. It's a magical, and that's the same with acting. Yes, yeah. Is the...

Oh, the big jupers. Yeah, a big jupers. The award for best duper goes to. Not his real name, that's Leonardo DiCaprio. Very cynical. Very cynical. Yeah. I refuse to be duped by you, madam.

I will not be taken in by this. No, I don't trust that one. Disbelief, unsuspended. Why, this book is so great, because you've got this romp going on, but you've also got someone showing you behind the scenes. scenes constantly. So I should explain what that is because within the magic world, you lecture. So I do that. You know, I'm very in the magic world and I love it. And then, so I will invent magic tricks. And then you go and lecture them to magic. So you'll do the trick. Wow. Fool them. Fool them. It's not following. It's magic, aren't they?

You're sorry. You dupe them. I dupe them. I duped, you gentlemen. So I shall... God damn it, he's duped us again! I shall undube you by explaining the dupory that just took place. My assistant, Sarah. So then you explain that. And then generally, you would sell a book to them of exactly that. It'll go effect method.

So within the Warlock Effect, the novel, written by Andy Namina, Jeremy Dyson, is a book called The Warlock Effect, which is... the lecture notes, the book that Louis is selling to his fellow magicians. So that's what's interspersed within it where he says, where he's saying to, okay, this is a trick that myself or myself and Dinah, who's his partner within the book, have done, I think you'll find this is excellent. Here's what it is. And now I'm going to show you exactly how we do that.

So you are taught three or four legitimately good magic tricks within the book that you can go and perform. Well, I was so astonished. It's quite early on in the book, but the trick, it looks like you've memorized a whole deck of cards. I've seen people do that so many times. So that is, I'm just going to our credits, that is the old, that was the first ever published magic trick. I have to say, because I thought it was illegal to.

Well, illegal. God, I love you. That's so sweet. Take those cuffs off me. Take two reasons. Not illegal, sir. Yeah. She takes it seriously.

The magic circle. Yes. A lot of what I've learned about magic is from arrested development and the character of Job. Oh God, so funny. And so Job was kicked out of the magic circle. He was really kicked and they really chased him for it. Because he had an unofficial woman in his act. Well, you are right.

Within the circle, so Jeremy and I are both members of the circle. And one of the big parts of it is not to, you know, you have to keep the secrets. Because it would ruin everything really quickly, yeah. Having said that, there are other rules. sort of some written, some unwritten within that. Some of them are tricks that have been explained many times. So they're almost in the public domain. Some of them are, well, if you've created something, then what's the stop you're doing that? But the thing that's really at the heart of the exposure and why it's not a good thing versus when it's okay, if it's within something you are

purchasing, you have made a commitment to that. So it's not against the rules to publish a magic book for the public for you to go and buy them. Or if you bought a magic set. Or a magic set. Yeah. It's about a level of commitment as opposed to something just being thrust upon you that you didn't ask for that's just there in front of you. And it's like, why are you spoiling that?

No one asked for it. That's pretty dignified agreement, isn't it? Very gentlemanly, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. It is. It's quite an interesting thing. And some of it's unwritten. So there's definite grey areas.

And you do, I mean, fortunately, you know, the circle really, like the book. And in fact, Jeremy was made a member of the Magic Circle because of sort of his work on League of Gentleman, but also his body of work. And then I think this really sort of clinched the deal. So it's been embraced by them. At the circle, there's one small sacrifice. But it's interesting, isn't it, like you said, you're talking about ghost stories and plays and effects, because magic obviously is, magic is a constant mini performance, isn't it? It's a constant beginning, middle end, sound effects, visuals, distractions. Like, it's, it's, it's, A mini movie.

Well, a magic trick is a brilliant short story with a twist ending. Yeah, yeah. Constant. Because you have, you know, more than one in your act mostly, don't you? Yeah. And you'd always end on the biggest and best one. Potentially, yeah. Like you said on someone underwater locked up and trying to get, like, that's the big.

Yeah. You can't really come back from that. Nick Mohamed did that in his, did you see his Edinburgh show when he? So good. He was in the, he was underwater chained up. Oh, did he really? Yeah. did it in chains and they did the trick and I felt sick because I was just like,

we can't lose, we can't lose Nick. We can't lose Nick. He's the nicest man in comedy. He did it. And then of course you come out and you're, you know, you can't really carry on making jokes after that. Like, it was like, boom. So good. So good.

In Edinburgh. Everyone's sick of jokes now. Yeah, Nick, that was amazing. He's brilliant magician, Nick. Yeah, he's brilliant. He's really great. Yeah. And actually hides it so well with Mr. Swallow.

Yeah. He manages to make it feel. real and he's fantastic and love so lovely. But now I'm suspicious, he might be involved in espionage. It might be. God help us. Yeah, he might be. Going to America for Ted Lassow.

Lassow? Lassau. Lassau. There's an answer for an answer. So not Ted Larson. But if you want to call him Ted Larson, how is Ted Larson? Edward Larson.

I wanted to ask about whether, because sometimes the tricks fit the plot so well. Yes. I thought, which came first. Oh, did you think, oh, I tell you a trick that's really great. Did you pre or the writing? No, it was plot first. And then it was about finding things that made sense within that. So that was another really exciting layer because Jeremy and I, you know,

we've both got libraries of magic books and old magazines from that time. Oh, did you make sure that you weren't using things that were so modern they wouldn't have known them? Yeah. Did you? Yeah. It's a best proper writing. They went historically accurate. And then a couple of the things in there are things that, I mean, certainly the mind-reading trick that Dina and Louis Doud that is taught to you is something that we created.

It's a version of things that then we just, we created that together. Again, even if you don't like magic, this is something that you can sort of learn and think, ooh, let's try that. Because I'm not someone who I like watching magic, but I've never read. I sat down and read a magic book. And that's what I thought was so great about this book because it's letting you into a world, but not in a way that's like, oh, this is a textbook. It was like, ooh, oh, I didn't know how that was happened.

And the plot was driving it. So I thought it was such a great escapist novel. You know what it just reminded me of is it's the way that the remakes of Sherlock with Benedict Cumberbatch quite often. First of all, you're just thinking, but how? Yeah, yeah. That's not satisfying. Oh, it is satisfying if it's because they really do understand.

Yes, what's going on. what he did and who was there and the homeless person distracting. Oh, it's so brilliant. We've just been re-watching them this. I also loved this idea that so our hero, Louis, has a brains trust. Because I think I've always watched some magician and thought, well, how does that one person do? All that, that one man. Yes.

And then understanding, oh, of course there's a fucking team behind him. Yeah. You just see one person. You don't think, oh, well, that's like, like when you see a play, it takes you years to realize. There's quite a lot of other people involved, not just the actors. But they're not important, don't they? I was going to say, yes, yes, they are there. They have a little booklet you can buy if you care.

And to discover there was a brains trust, these brilliant minds. Of course one man is not coming up with this entire stage show by himself. But I guess that's the front door is the one man, isn't it? The audience wants it to be one person. Yeah, yeah. Because that's how the magic works. Yeah, of course. As I say, I've written me Darren for 24 years or whatever it is.

And there's also a thing that is, within the. this room, please let's not fucking pretend. I'm not saying that's the me and Derren die. Yeah, yeah. Look, we all know it's ours. So, you know, it's fine what you say out there, but in here. So how did that start the relationship with Derren Brown? So I have done mentalism, the sort of mind-reading magic. That was my painting and decorating when I was out of work as an actor. I've done all sorts of magic. I loved it. Anyway, I get a phone call out of the blue from Andrew O'Connor at what was objective productions way back in 1999 or 2000 saying, we want to offer you a one hour special on Channel 4 doing mind reading. I said, no, that's very sweet,

but thank you, but I'm an actor and I'm not interested. I don't want to be famous as a, and he was like, is this a trick? Are you doing me? Are you doing me? You want a full series? Yeah. Yeah. So they thought I was insane. And so they sort of courted me for a bit. So I said, whoever you find to do this, I will write, you like my ideas. So I'll create with them and for them and direct them if you want that. And that was maybe the smartest thing I've ever done in my life, really, because six months later they came across Darren. And I'd seen Darren at a magic convention in this competition. And he was utterly singular. I mean, it was like nothing you'd ever seen. It was a total

reinvention of that art form. You fooled everybody, but it went beyond that. I have got a very good magical knowledge and a very good knowledge of mentalism. And I sat there and thought, this fucking bloke, what is he doing? I do not understand this. So these have got to be

stooges. These are stooges, surely. Because it's so good. Because this is the only way this. And number one, it feels invasive. I feel very uncomfortable watching this. What was he doing? Just the stuff that we've come to know and love as Derren's Uvra, really.

Anyway, I then, they put us together and said, see if you get on. Well, you know, to my great joy in surprise, he's hysterical and charming and lovely and funny. That's what comes across in his performance. Oh, my God. First of all, it's that twinkle behind the eye. Oh, charm. So good. That you can't fake, really.

Yeah. And I just trust everything. I was like, oh, he's got through the jueping mile. Yeah, exactly. Derrim's my favourite. Yeah. I like him. Twinkly and GP.

You know what it was? I think about all the time hitting the Plexiglass at the races. Oh my God, that was the first special. But once you've seen someone do it, just that little micro. I got obsessed when he did the chess episode. Yeah. Because I have a family that played chess. I've never won in my fucking life.

Wow. And I copied what he did. And my brother, I was paying my brother. And he went, oh my God, this is the best you've ever played. And I was just sat there like, He was like, wow, okay. I'm just copying what Darren Brown said, which you just copy their moods.

But I love that. So he was playing himself and he didn't realize. Yeah, I literally cannot remember, A, the amount of work we did, and B, how any of it works. I'm not saying that being sort of duping you. I literally, I don't remember. But it would be like a comic, like,

I work with Alan Davis sometimes and I really love some of his routines. I had a DVD, and he's like, I don't remember saying that. And you're falling from a plane and you've got cheese grate to in your hands, And you're going great tits on your own chest. And he's like, I've got no idea what you're talking about.

So it would be the same. Yeah. Your brain doesn't need to remember. No. Yeah. So we got on like a house on fire. And then I realized, I mean, whilst it was strange and invasive and a reinvention of the art, you know, it was skill-based and very much language-based at times.

So it was fascinating. And that was the really good yin and yang with the two of us, because rather like the warlock effect, I've got a very old fashion sensibility. And he had a sort of very cutting edge. And it was a perfect marriage of those two things, you know, because he'd come up with these things

and I'd find a method. Or I'd be like, there's this hoary old thing that everyone ignores, but I think it's so good. It's this. And he'd be like, what is that? You know,

and then you'd find this way of putting the things together. And it was a blissful. Can I ask what's potentially an awkward question? Go for it. What do you think of people like David Blaine? People who like go up and say, oh, I'm going to sit in this box for 24 days. I think Blaine's incredible.

Oh, really? There wouldn't be Derham without Blaine. Blaine. A Blaine properly reinvented magic. And the truth is with Blaine. He is, I honestly think, the greatest artist in magic. He still pushes the envelope. But the thing with him is, what I've really come to understand,

and even at that time while she sort of thought, oh, that sitting in the box is a bit misguided and stuff, he fucking does them. Oh, yeah. I think that's the, if there was a sneer implied by me, it's that, it's like, we know, we all know you there. Yeah, no, I get it. We were sort of asking what, why are here, but we want to know why.

I mean, it was brilliant. Our response to it was so brilliantly British, wasn't it? It was just chucking eggs at it and like, a little burger on a helicopter. It's fantastic. It's exactly what you sort of wanted. And it is a spectacle, isn't it? Yeah, an accessible spectacle. But what's incredible is, that is, I don't know, what is that 20 years ago?

And we still talk about that stuff. Which I guess is like a Houdini over Niagara Falls. That's it. And, you know, to have the ability to create, to think of those moments, let alone put your body through those moments. Honestly, and if you watch his specials, he's, extraordinary and still pushing the art. What comes across so clearly in this character, like you said earlier, Sarah,

is there is such a love of this art. Yeah. And that's what is communicated to the audience, but amongst magicians themselves. And I guess you can apply it to acting, comedy, but when people love the medium they're working in, their fellow peers love them, because they understand they respect what we're all doing.

And I think that's what you have with Louis, his love of that magic and his brains trust and then the adventures, not quite the right word, that they get into and the danger they get into because of this belief that magic is a thing you can come back to, magic will save you. It will guide you.

And I thought it was interesting you said that you did write it in lockdown because, you know, for you and Jeremy, this is something that saved you since you were 15, the world feels like it's ending and you went back to the thing that saved you as teenagers. Definitely. And it has been, it continues to do that.

You know, there is, I think like, look, it's like anything else that you can lose yourself. Yeah. Be that, be that reading, be that knitting, be that playing an instrument, jogging, whatever it is. You know, it's essential having those things because when life is challenging, which it will be unavoidably for whatever reason, having those things to go to. And literally on a daily basis, magic is a thing that I can escape to when I need to. And I love it for that. Can I read a little bit? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Is that all right? Yeah, yeah, go for it. I don't think we've ever had a guest do that before. Really? All right. I'm going to read 60 pages. All right. So this is from within the Louis book to magicians.

So this is from within the Warlock Effect. It's within the Warlock effect. And it's the start of a chapter. called the real magic word. My dear friend, are you still there? Are you reading this? If you are, and I know you are, aren't you? I know you are. I know you are. I want you to think of a magic word. Got one? Well, I'm guessing you either thought of hocus pocus or abracadabra. Yeah, there are a few other obscure ones out there like Gazumba or Sim Salabim. But ultimately it boils down to a choice of two. Think about those two choices while I remind you of what a magic word really is.

It's a spell. An assembly of letters that possesses an ancient otherworldly power, accessing and bringing forth a force that ordinary people cannot command. Now close your eyes and whisper them both, but don't just speak the words as you say them. imagine that you command and affect that real power. The power to bring something into being make something appear, to bring it forward into our realm, however unlikely, however impossible it seems. Which of those words felt to you like it had the most power?

Well, somehow hocus pocus feels silly, doesn't it? Like it's made for children. Maybe that's because it's an invented word. It has no real grounding. absolute power. It was first created to describe the frivolous tricks that 16th century jugglers performed, but abracadabra is a different beast. Whisper it again. As the word trips off your tongue, you can sense that there's something beneath it, something deep and ancient. It's there in its rhythm, its sound, its music. With a

Without you even knowing it, that word, a word that has survived since the second century AD, evokes a response that you can't put your finger on. You can feel the dark ancient power of it. Abricadabra is a corruption of the Hebrew, Abrakadabri, meaning, I will create as I speak. In other words, the very act of speech will create new reality. is words have power once they are formed. This I know to be true. Wow.

I know I love that of it. I just hadn't read ahead. So when he said, think of a magic word. I thought of the word magic. I was like, magic. And then you then went, you've thought of one of two. Hocus poker. I was like, I did not understand the exercise.

To anyone who's listening thinking, oh, you know, this sounds like a really great book. I think it is a really good page turner read that people want at this time of year. you know, going on holiday, playing, that kind of thing. But I've never seen more incredible quotes. Yeah, I know, I know. When you've got on Richard Osman, two great masters joining forces,

when that comes through, you must have been punching in the air. Oh my God, well, that Neil Gaiman. That's what I was going to say. And then down there, Neil Gaiman, Richard Osmond, Neil Gaiman, book ends on the front. Yeah, I know.

I mean, it is when they were putting them together for the paperback. Which will already be out by the time. Yes, it will be. Yeah. I mean, it is amazing. Peter James. I mean.

So we live with the month for the Sunday time? Yeah. It's really, it's very heartening and lovely. It's really good storytelling. Yeah. Thank you. Like I was totally, totally transported to 1950s London. Then I was transported to somewhere else, plot redacted.

Yeah. And it's also as mad as this sounds. It's very, what has been lovely for Jeremy and I is that magic as a world is insanely male. The magic circle, there are 1,300 members and maybe. be 150 women within that. It's changing a lot. As a hobby, it's been that there's something about the wiring of men. This is not a book just for men.

Also, it's worth pointing out for anyone who listens to as a creative or a writer or in whatever form. The whole, I would say the last quarter of this book was a shift that came out of our editor, Mifamwe Moore's brilliant notes. You know, we'd gone another route. And actually, you know, she'd come to us and said, I think that diner just seems to sort of disappear. And the notes then, it's very easy when you're creative to think everyone's a twat. They're not understanding.

And sometimes they are. I very similarly had an amazing editors in my novel. And it was my most pleasant and heartening experience of how important that job is in that relationship. Totally. Because then you realize when you read authors thanking their editors, they're not being polite. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They saved them. They made their stuff better.

Yeah. And that, but you have to be able to, and I've learned a lot from Jeremy in that respect as well, not just on this, but throughout all of our writing processes, the most brilliant writer and brilliant collaborator. And, you know, is that you just have to set your ego aside. And also the other thing that Jeremy very wisely said to me when we were doing the notes on the ghost stories film is, you know, very often it's right, no, wrong place. Yes. So they know there's something that's wrong. They can't quite articulate where that is. So they're giving it here.

If you shine a light, you're honest on yourself. And you go, I think they're right. Yeah, my husband's a writer, filmmaker. And he always says they give a note, something like for the last third, your problem's in the first third. But they don't see it because they're only sensing it there. Yeah. Like, oh, something's not right.

It's like, yeah, because something at the beginning hasn't been found, strong foundation for us to get there. But as an audience, they won't notice it to then. Your job as a writer is to go back through the house. you've built and go, oh, we didn't build the kitchen very well. Yeah. Yeah. That's why you're complaining that the attic fell in.

Yeah. If that moment's unsatisfying, I can say things right at the beginning. Yeah. Yeah. There's shore up that plot that you're trying, the effect that you're trying to do. But what we sometimes, they might say is, oh, I don't like that person or that character. And you're like, that feels too queer. What I mean is you didn't make that person real enough on page one to 25.

That, that for me has been the joy of collaboration. I don't know how you do it on your own. I've never written on my own. ego, yeah. But it's the shining a light on yourself. It's not having the presence of mind to think, I'm going to write a book on my own. I get that or a script on my own.

It's the, when you're having to go inward and think, come on, be honest. Yeah. You know, it's that stuff that I would find hard. But the audience is a collaboration. Yes. Just be pretentious because you know when they've lost interest. Yeah.

And so, and you know when, especially if it's comedy, they didn't laugh. Yeah. And so they've shined a light for you. Yeah. And then it's your job to go, I don't want that to happen again. Sorry about that guy giving you next time. So it's constant notes. And there's no way you can call them twats.

Literally the people you're doing it for. Have you never seen a bowling ball for? I have a newstabre about. What's wrong with you guys? Yeah, I just jute you. Why not going to be jute? Okay, hell. Annie, thank you so much.

Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. So much. It was such a good romp and such a good, like, I honestly was getting the. Getting on the bus like, what's happening now? What's happening now? What's he doing now? Yeah.

And yeah, I was very worried about him the whole whole time. And I now feel like I could probably do about three magic tricks. Yeah. And I think I would love, I would love to be that person. I probably won't socialise still for a couple of years. My kids are slightly older. I would love to be that lady at dinner party like, tuck me those cards. Oh, yeah.

But you can be. I wish I had that. Touch me those cards. Yeah. Yeah. You've got to really want to practice something. I think I can do. I think I can do.

read something once and do it. Okay, let's have that set ego again. Guarantee. Yeah, thank you. A pleasure. Thank you. Thank you for listening to the Weirdo's Book Club. The Warlock Effect is out in paperback now.

Andy is currently starring in Hello Dolly at the London Palladium with Amelda Staunton and his show Ghost Stories is on tour next year from January to July 2025. My novel Weirdo and Carrier's book, You and Us Alone are also out in paperback. Why Not Get a Triumvirut? You can find out all about the upcoming books. we're going to be discussing on our Instagram at Sarah and Carriad's Weirdo's Book Club. Also, open to recommendations if you're really loving a book. Let us know.

Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you.