Sara & Cariad's Weirdos Book Club - The Whale Tattoo by Jon Ransom with Andrew White

Episode Date: September 12, 2024

This week's book guest is The Whale Tattoo by Jon Ransom.Sara and Cariad are joined by comedian, writer and actor Andrew White to discuss fish, fishing, dads, love, sex, queer writing and penises.Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you!The Whale Tattoo by Jon Ransom is available to buy here or on Apple Books here.Andrew is on tour with his new stand-up show 'Young, Gay And A Third Thing' from 13 Oct - 20 Dec. For tickets and information head to standupandrew.com.You can find Andrew on Instagram @standupandrew and Twitter @StandUpAndrewTickets for the live show at the Southbank Centre with special guest Harriet Walter are available to buy here!Sara’s debut novel Weirdo is published by Faber & Faber and is available to buy here.Cariad’s book You Are Not Alone is published by Bloomsbury and is available to buy here.Cariad’s children's book The Christmas Wish-tastrophe is available to pre-order now.Follow Sara & Cariad’s Weirdos Book Club on Instagram @saraandcariadsweirdosbookclub and Twitter @weirdosbookclub Recorded by Naomi Parnell and edited by Aniya Das for Plosive.Artwork by Welcome Studio.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I'm Sarah Pasco. Hello, I'm Carriad Lloyd. And we're weird about books. We love to read. We read too much. We talk too much. About the too much that we've read. Which is why we've created the Weirdo's Book Club.

Join us. A space for the lonely outsider to feel accepted and appreciated. A place for the person who'd love to be in a real book club, but it doesn't like wine or nibbles. Or being around other people. Is that you? Join us. Check out our Instagram at Sarah and Carriads Weirdo's Book Club

for the upcoming books we're going to be discussing. You can read along and share your opinions. Or just skulk around in your raincoat like the weirdo you are. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you. This week's book guest is The Whale Tattoo by John Ransom. What's it about? It's about a young gay man who returns to his hometown and his many problems.

What qualifies it for the weirdos book club? Well, his bollocks talk to him quite regularly. In this episode we discuss fish, fishing, dads, love, sex, queer writing, and penises. And joining us this week is Andrew White. Andrew is a brilliant stand-up comedian. You can find him on socials at Stand Up Andrew and check out his website, standupandrew.com, for his tour dates and gigs. You have to see him live. He's hysterical.

Trigger warning. In this episode, we do discuss sex and genitalia in quite a lot of detail. Welcome, Andrew. Hello. Thank you for having me. Thank you for being here. Thank you for reading with us. Thank you for reading with us. Yes, because you had to read a book to come in.

Yes, yeah. Do you enjoy reading? I do. I read quite a lot. Lots of queer literature mainly. That's lucky. Perfect for today. Yes, yeah.

Yeah, I sort of started to thank myself reading goals. What I really wanted was, you know, the letterboxed app for like films. I really wanted that with books because I love cataloging. And then a friend recommended, I think it's called Storygraph. So now I've got, I can set reading goals. I can link all of my reading. Yes, storygraph. What?

This isn't sponsored, by the way, but yeah. So there's moods, there's pace, page number, fiction, nonfiction. And so you put in, I've read one page of Lord of the Rings, and it translates that into a pie chart. Yeah, basically, yeah, you just click off. It's stats, it's your reading stats. You can check out, how am I doing as a reader? What's my PB?

It doesn't end up making you spend more time on your phone. No, because that's what I'm suspicious of. I'm going to get down for the meeting. As soon as I've updated my story graph. Like the running app, when people are very keen on posting their run. and their time and you're like, you spent more time on posting the run than the run, didn't you? I think I want to be controversial and say, but if that then incentivizes them to go for the run so they can post it, I don't mind it for them.

Well, that's what you're saying. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Because I used to, I loved reading as a kid. But when I was a child, I took a book out from the library. I was like 12.

Yeah. And I decided, oh, actually, I don't want to read this. I returned it a day later. And the librarian went, oh, you read that fast. And the serotonin was so overwhelming that I got into a really bad habit of taking books out and then returning them like two days later. Oh, pretending. So I never actually read for that.

To be like a little teacher's pet for the librarian. Yeah. Because she'd said well done. Yeah. I can feel, yeah, I would have taken that as well. That's seroton. Definitely. And she's tuned into this episode.

She's like, I recognize that little lad, the reader. My little book were six books a week he was bringing in. And she never said to you all, did you enjoy it or wanted an opinion? No, no. So you have read this one. I have read this one. Yeah, I've genuinely read this check. I told him well done and then he just was like over the moon.

But you said you read a lot of, like you said, queer writing, but you hadn't heard of this one. No, surprisingly, because having looked up since, there's loads of queer book reviews and stuff. And it's won the Polari Award, which I didn't even know existed. What is the Polari Award? The Polari is for queer writing. So Polari is a language that was spoken in the 1940s and 50s.

Yes, that's, yeah, that's what I told you about a Polari Prize between in queer society. that people didn't know what they were saying. And yes, we are talking about the whale tattoo by John Ransom, which won the Polari in 2023. And Carread. Yes. When we started the podcast, you suggested this book. Yes, I've been going on about this book for a long time.

And we have wanted to find the right guest to read it right since the beginning. So this book is very important to you. Yeah, because, so there's a backstory to this. I was sent this book when I was doing my other podcast, the grief cast, which is about grief. Because he had recently, John had recently lost both his parents. and they wanted him to come on and talk about grief. And obviously, the book is about grief.

So I got it and I thought, oh, there's another book about grief. And I started reading it. It was like, oh, this is much more about being working class queer man than it is about, obviously, grief is a huge part of it. Those people can grieve too. They can grieve to. And I was very surprised.

I was like, oh, that's, they, when they pitched it to me, it's like, oh, it's a grief book. And grief books, it's very literal. You know what I mean? It's like, it's just telling you the story. story of how someone died in a linear fashion. And this, I was like, what is this man doing? This is so good. So he came on the grief cast and then I interviewed him twice since then I interviewed him. I interviewed him at Hay Festival and another online thing. And so it meant this is the fourth time

I read this book. I think that's testament to the book. It is. Yes. I've managed to read it four times and found something different every single time. Because I've only read it once I had a flick through to sort of like, that's okay. It's not more. You should have only read it once. It's very weird that I read it four times. Yeah. I'd say that's a lot of times. Yeah. I don't know. over a period of like three years probably so yeah well because i did flick back through to like get some quotes and stuff and there's loads of things being covered like as you say it's like there's grief but it's sort of the grief is underpinning so many bigger things that are going on as well yeah it's a lot it's slidpery isn't it in terms of in terms of how you're told things as a

story because obviously water is so important that's how it feels like doesn't it sort of trickling through understanding of character is so deep and we're We should say, so it's about, this is what the blurb is, which I don't think is very helpful blur. Okay. Let's discuss the blurb first. When a giant sperm whale washes up on a Norfolk beach, it tells Joe Gunner, a confused working class lad, that death will follow him wherever he goes. Joe knows the place he needs to go back home. Having stormed out two years ago, it won't be easy.

Nor were returning to the river beside his house, where words ripple beneath the surface, washing up all sorts of memories. Now, I read that and was like, oh, okay, it's a boy returning home. So the author didn't write that. No, no. And so what's difficult with having written a novel and then had someone at the publishers do the blurb for you, it's really difficult because they want to write it in a way that makes it sound like other books that it's not. So that someone go, oh, it won't be easy to return. Yeah, yeah.

That's not what my book is. No. I mean, we've got a talking whale. It's so literal about, there's a talking whale on the beach. It says like, oh, the river where words like, return to him and it's like the river talks to him the entire way through. He's shouting at a river for large parts of this book. So I think the book is actually much more surreal.

Or metaphorical. Yeah, metaphorical. Can I tell you one quick fact that he wrote the first draft of this book on his phone, on the bus, on the way to work? I love stuff like that. Isn't that good? That's crazy. That's crazy.

Considering how complicated this book is as well, like it does keep going from different timelines and maybe you had to get off the bus. Just to leave it for the day. Yeah. They go back. Yeah, he said he just sat there and just sat there and just. We'll just get on open his notes. I love that because so many people who want to write tell themselves they don't have time or they don't have quiet time.

They don't have the pure, empty time for their creativity. And actually, you can do it. People do do it. Joe is in love with a character called Fish, F-Y-S-H, Tim Fish. And they are having a relationship, but the whole, you know, this is not approved of from Joe's family, Fish's family, anyone. And he constantly describes Fish as like a match. like he's got this red hair. Do you pick on a, like, constantly like fire and hair like a match about to go up?

And it's just like, he just does all these like really cool little subtle metaphorical things, which is quite hard to do in not an annoying way. Yeah, the language used so impressive in like making you really immerse yourself into the world. Like it's not just, oh, this is a great narrative told in an interesting way. Like, because the whole book is very suffocating. Yeah. Because it's all like grey and like, I didn't even realise until afterwards that it's like setting. Kings Lynn. I know Kings Lynn. It's a fine, nice town. But it felt like, like, you know,

like sort of the Great Depression novels of like the Greater Wrath when it's like this sort of like suffocating heat and there's like sort of hopelessness. Yeah. It's like sort of dog shit. It's like the wet equivalent of that. Yeah. It's just, yeah, I was like genuinely, until the last couple of chapters, I didn't realize I was like, oh, I think my chest was like tighter reading that. And I don't say this as a negative, but it's not an enjoyable reading experience. for a lot of the time. Fourth time, it was more enjoyable.

I wanted to just make sure for listeners, because I think it's a kind of book, if you heard people saying, oh my God, it's so well written, it's so great. And then you'll shove it on the Kindle. And then you'd start and go,

what? No. So I just wanted to say, like, so I started reading it, just got the kids to bed. And I poured myself a glass of wine. Oh, nice. I sat outside just sort of like by the garden,

but I can hear the kids. And I read two pages and went, I need to be sober. I need to be sober for this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can't be drinking a glass of wine. I was like, oh, God, oh, God, okay. And I did find the way that his testicles were like these harbingers of doom.

His bollocks ache when someone's about to die. Or something bad's going to happen. Something bad's going to happen, yeah. And so there were things I found really confronting at the beginning. Yeah. I think it's interesting because I, the first time I had to read it and I was about to interview him for griefcast. And again, I was like, ready to talk about this man and lost his parents. And I was like, whoa, wow.

How much spit do you need to get an asshole ready? This is a lot. It is a lot. We're going to have to have to be a big warning at the beginning of this episode because it's impossible to talk about this book without talking about how bodily it is. Yeah, it's very bodily. And the bollocks.

And genital. Yes, the genital thing. And again, the first time I read it, I was like, oh, my, oh, gosh. That's not what I think. I mean, I don't read very much queer literature. It's not like I avoid it, but it's not pushed into my hands as a middle-aged straight woman. So is this more common in crime? Andrew, Andrew, I'm looking at you saying, is this the kind of thing people talk about more queer novels?

I mean, sort of, yeah. I mean, there's a big, like, breadth of queer literature that's like sometimes it's a really beautiful and romantic. Like, Philippe Bisson has got these two beautiful books called Lie With Me and in the absence of men. And, like, the way they talk about sex and that is really, like, romantic and passionate. And then there is a lot of stuff with like this where it's very matter of fact, like almost transactional. Yeah. And I think that's just a way that some... And in this book, it's very effective, in my opinion, because it sort of shows that there's a disconnect between sex and romance. And there's like, they talk about sex and as a matter of fact way, like, oh, it's understandable.

You know, people have sex. People want to have orgasms. That's, we can comprehend that. But then the main character, Joe, isn't accepted because actually he wants more. Yeah. Like, you can understand. He's gay. Exactly.

Yeah. There's a difference between having sex with men. and as it says in the book, so often being a puffter, that distinction made. Like even Doug, who's Fisher's brother, says,

oh, my brother's not like you. It's like, he is. They're both gay. Yeah. But because Fish is able to be more of a man and, you know,

integrate into this fishing community, he's seen as different. And Joe's character is seen as sort of leading him astray or leading him negatively. Joe wants a relationship. Joe loves him. To be like, yeah,

he loves him. him can I tell you a quick fact that John said to me in one interview because I said the same thing to him I was like gosh it's very graphic and he said when he was a working class boy growing up in Norfolk he used to go to car boot sales to get books that's how he got his books and he said you know you've got your 20p your 50p and he would buy a book which had like a half-naked man on the cover and he'd get it home and there would be no sex and he would feel cheated and he was like it would really annoy me because there'd be promised you'd be you know this sort of teenager like oh, this might be a good one.

And they'd be like, oh, this is all like, you know, a suggestion. So he was like, I wanted to write a book, a queer book that dealt with that side and didn't disappoint you as a reader, didn't hide from, this is the sex, this is what these people are doing, this is how they live. And there was another guy in the audience who was gay, who asked a question and said, I really appreciated how honest it was and how you dealt with it, how you didn't, as if it wasn't, something shocking to us, this is our life. And I was like, oh, yes, that's me as a straight sister.

person being like, who, just touching my pearls. And I was like, you're right, that is your life. I'm not normal and you're not the unusual. It's just different normals. Well, I was thinking on the way here actually, because even, you know, if heterosexual sex was written about in this very, very honest way where someone is not using language in any other capacity, there's no poetry that literally describing what's happening. Yeah. Intent, sensation, desire. If heterosexual sex was described that way in a book, especially if it was done so repeatedly, that would still be like a wow,

I haven't read sex like this before. This book made me reflect on how sex has been presented in books that we've read recently. And I'm like, it's either written in a way to make, oh, you know, they're trying to show that the characters are connecting. Or they're trying to show you that,

ooh, this is horny. Does it make you feel sexy? This book wasn't trying to make me feel sexy. No. And that's not to say that it couldn't be found to be that. I felt like a writer was telling me the truth. Yeah, yeah. it felt so real to me and that's where the bodily thing became such, I mean, yeah, in the hands

of such a good writer, a less accomplished writer, it would be just, why does this guy keep talking about his testifference? And I wanted, yeah, I believed him every time. This character relates to his body in such a instinctive way. And as you, Andrew said, it separates him for the rest of the men in that community who do not relate to their bodies in any shape or form. Yeah, there is definitely a sort of disconnect between emotion and sense. and like even another character that he has sex within the book who just refers to as hold your

horses. I know. He's just like, Fit Ladd and Hold Your Horses of the two other boys he seems with. I just desperate to, you know, shoot their low basically. Yeah. Oh yeah, well, just want to get this out of my system. But there's like a beautiful, actually a heartbreaking moment.

When he first has sex, a hammerhard holding my breath when he pushes his dick all the way inside me, hurts something terrible, bust the breath right out of me, but I stand it because I like the heat from the palm of his hand pressing against my belly. So it's like that's so. it's a difficult physicality to like experience but he just likes that sort of connection the warmth of the hand on his belly is what he wants more than anything that connection so he stands

the thing that he's maybe not necessarily ready for well that that passage struck me so much because I thought how do you show that something can be painful and consenting that someone can want something even than they don't quite know yet what it is and there's still a desire there or pleasure within discomfort There's so many levels for that And it would be, we, I'm so used to reading

And this is, again, it's in the criticism, things that are from the neck up Yeah, this is what I was thinking about the time Rather than someone feeding heat from a palm He's such a lost soul in so many ways And I think, I appreciate that the sex reflects that Do you know what I mean? Rather than you said like making a completely fully character And then they have sex and it's very beautiful

But they're not beautiful in any other way of their life I feel Joe feels, he felt so real to me. I really felt like I was in his head. And that's why it is a hard book to read because his head is not always a peaceful place to be. There's just like the one, for page three, he says, I write Joe in ketchup on the white kitchen table so he knows I'm not a ghost.

I was like, God. After he's just had sex with this guy, like that's how he's going to tell him, I've left because he couldn't find a pencil. I was just like, wow, there's, but it seems so. normal when you're in Joe's head, you know, often his decisions seem to make sense,

and it's not until a few pages long, you think, oh, you shouldn't have done that, Joe. It's stressful to be in Joe's hair. It's stressful, yeah. But this is so reflective of a lot of gay sex culture. I think it's changing. I think it is shifting.

And like there's much more positive, like, representation, like heart stop as much more romantic and sort of gently sort of getting into a relationship. But previously, and very, very recently, like, it's grinder, it is transactional, it is just like, oh, well, we meet for sex. And so I relate heavily to the like, oh, no, I want more. How do I, what do I do to make this go longer?

How do I, you know, get this to be more than sex? So that sort of thing of like writing ketchup, writing ketchup is, I've never done something that crazy. But I've done some ridiculous things and spent a lot of money. Joe talks about fish will only kiss him when he's drunk. Yeah. So there's a scene where, you know, they're in. It's a sex scene.

It involves a bath and he's kissing him. And the kissing is described so beautifully. I think he says like his tongue in my mouth as if it's new. In that moment what we find out is that in these sexual exploits, he's not being kissed by someone that he loves. So hugely pleasurable. It's definitely something that he wants, but maybe a shade or a tone of rejection still.

And that's what's very difficult if you're in a very, very homophobic community. Yeah, which this is to say. They're very unwelcome. So people who have homosexual feelings dislike those feelings so then can dislike the person they have the feelings for. And that's hugely difficult, isn't it? And that's sort of a given in this text.

Yeah, yeah. That kissing thing is very common. I've had that with a hookup before. But like a one-off hookup, like a regular person I was seeing, I guess. But yeah, they wouldn't kiss. And I think that's so common because almost like Like I said earlier, like sex makes sense.

That's pleasurable. And oh, it's just human instinct. But like, there's no logic to kissing. So if you kiss, it's gay. But if we have sex, it's not gay. Exactly. That's not gay. One of my friends,

attitude, this is quite a long time ago. So you know, like all the stuff finishes, like midnight. And so he went on his grinder and found someone. And essentially got directed to his tent. And then he came back. And he wasn't traumatized. But it was really shocking for me that he was upset at the interaction that had been very much business. It sounded to me so horrible, but it was like it's that or nothing.

In terms of what the person is offering you. Yeah, yeah. And I think, again, in this book, it's such good writing because it's so indicative of Joe is in the wrong place. He actually is comfortable with his gayness. He knows he's gay and has known for a long time. But he's in love with the boy from school who, and he describes him, his breath is thick with beer, cigarettes and trouble. Which I was like, that is like every bad boy in a book.

He's fallen in with the bad boy. And this bad boy is having sex with him. As you said, is a fisherman, fits in him and his brother are the trouble of the town. And he's got a girl and he has a girlfriend and he's married her. And it's this two distinct worlds of like a fish is a character who's not happy, really, where he is. And Joe is a character who does understand himself but is still miserable because the world he's in his society. everyone just keeps telling him he's wrong. I wondered if it wasn't about

sort of a confidence in his sexuality. It's just that there's no point fighting it. Yeah, yeah. Whereas fish is trying to fight it. Your old fish is really trying to fight it. He just is going, well, I mean, it's incontrovertible. Everyone knows. It's completely obvious to everyone.

It was always obvious to everyone. And so he doesn't have the choice. There's one point quite early on where he looks at a girl's ass. Yeah, yeah, pretends to do. And then he can't even be bothered to look at the second time. Exactly. I know.

Because I really think Fish does love Joe. I really believe that because he... I know. I think he might as well. Yeah, because at the moments when, like, when they hook up for the second time, he's brought blankets and stuff. I know it's such a small gesture. But then there's also a bit where he's talking about wanting his own boat.

He's going to name it Joe. Yeah, he wants to name it Joe. I think if he didn't have his older brother, especially Doug, and could just genuinely run away with Joe, I think he would have... Oh, if life was longer... I mean, we're looking at a snapshot of lives. there are people who for decades try and escape or try and lie or hide or think they can get over feelings and then they end up, you know, very happily out and in love. So in terms of it being a love story,

if they had longer, who knows? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think you do get that, again, no spoilers. At the end of the book, you get a sense of redemption, don't you, with in terms of love? I can't believe how he managed, the writer. I know. John Ransom managed to find sunshine creeping in. Because genuinely, I said about like, it opened up. I suddenly imagining it in sun, even though there is sunshine in the book,

it's almost like stifling. But then at the end when it's sunny, I'm like, oh no, things are going to be. Yeah. Oh, there is a line, but there is a bit of a spoiler. But even though it's a very sad book, this is the actual moment I only cried at. He says, cheers.

Afterwards, I'll buy you an ice cream. We can talk. I nod because I'm hot and hungry. I'll not tell him that I've never had a boy buy me an ice cream before. he might reckon that's pretty stupid I'm like oh yeah really really sweet

it's so sweet and again I think it's a skill of John as a writer like it that it is a very oppressive book it's dealing with things very graphically but it's there's a truth

to everybody that somehow keeps you going as a reader of like this isn't just bleak you know working class horrible like you know trauma porn it's like it's telling you the truth

in a book where people don't have very much, when they'm suddenly to have chocolate ice cream. I know. It's massive. There's so much warm beer. I know. I just just someone passing me a beer and just fingers crossed going, please be cold, please be cold.

It's another cat. Why does no one have a fridge? Why does no one have a bucket of ice? Honestly, I grew up in an area we didn't have that much money. But we had ice. Well, people knew that beers should be cold. We weren't fancy folk. Oh, the amount of dirty pants that are there. That's dressed me out. I was like, come on, just wash these pants.

And he says, one bit they're not clean. I was like, you need new laundry, Joe. Get new different liquid or something. It's not working. I wanted to talk about the women in the book. Yes. Because there are women in the book, we should say. So you have the character Birdie, who is his sister, and now the character, Dora, who's involved with Fish and his mum as well. So Joe's

mom, his sister, Birdie, and this other character, Dora. So it's not just dealing with men in their relationship. But they are all maternal relationships. Yes. So his mother, patently, And then very sadly, because we learn quite early on that his mum is dead. We know she's dead. We don't know the ins and outs come much later, don't know.

But we know that she's absent. Yes, definitely. And then the sister role is so maternal in the absence of her mom. And also, you know, if you're a sibling with a very difficult home life and the parent who was your safer parent, then goes. So they depended on each other, he depended on her. And then when Dora suddenly comes into his life, she takes on. a sisterly, a caring role.

He says, Dora's running around in my head. Way she peels back misplaced memories like a wood plane stripping paint. Has me considering why all the women in my life disappear. These women are the bends in the river. The curve of the moon. They smooth me.

Without them, I'd be a hard line. Nothing left to do but tell the moon everything I can't say to Dora. But yeah, it's interesting that you're right. It is a very maternal aspect that his characters are playing. But I felt that they were very well written as well. Oh, yeah.

They were really, I really love the female characters. And that thing he says about like, all the bends in the river that's shaping him, whatever. Oh, there's so much like intersectionality of this of like being working class and being outside of gender norms. And he's just even stuck geographically in North. There's so much being trapped. Yeah, yeah. And I think that's why his sort of acceptance of its sexuality, that inevitability, is because he's so many things outside of the norm. Yeah.

Like fish can deny it because he can still be a fisherman and still, you know, get on with rest of society. but he clearly is not, you know, quote unquote, manly enough for the society around him. And then also, yeah, so many things that he doesn't align with. And I think these women in his life are sort of so oppressed under the same patriarchy. They kind of sort of cut through to him because all the men around him are like, well, you've got to do this. You've got to do this. But the women sort of see in him like, hey, look, you know. It's shit.

But that's what it's like for us, you know, in this world. and yeah they sort of guide him gently to being a better man. Yeah, there's a... That's very true. There's a purity to those relationships. And I know that would be the case with the family as well, but so I think maybe I'm talking more about his relationship with Dora because all, you know, gender and sex is taken away.

She's a woman living in his house that he's getting to know and they don't really know each other, but some intimacy is created. How intimacy is created with characters I found very interesting. there's after Joe stays with the soldier he reflects on the fact he doesn't know anything about the soldier he doesn't know how he lost his arm he doesn't know but he just knows how he takes his eggs and it's the kind of thing that Joe notices

it's like you can you can live and like living with his dad you can live in a house with someone and not love them or hate them or not be close to them and then sometimes with other characters intimacy is built so quickly via an ice cream or sex in the toilets or the opposite yeah

I think that's really interesting what you're both saying that Dora, his mom, Birdie, they're all in love with men who are kind of awful because they can't accept who they are. And so Joe is the same. Joe is in love with a man who can't, doesn't, isn't able to recognise him. And so, yes, the intimacies are noticed

of those small details because these men won't connect, will they? These men don't sit down and cry and hold and say, this is how I'm feeling. And his dad is a fascinating character. It's like, you know, who's not well. in an out of hospital and just will not speak to him. And when he does, it's foul.

He's really horrible to Joe. I found those bits really, yeah, just very moving, I think. Just very moving that relationship. Then it was so interesting when his dad got on well with Dora. I know, I know. Because if you're watching someone, you know, you've lived with your entire life. Yeah. Just as you've perfectly described, not a nice man. And then Dora being like, he's not so bad.

And I was really annoyed. I was like, you don't know him, Dora. He's being nice to you. But you could see it was like for the dad. he can talk to a woman, this random woman that's moved in with him, he can say how he's feeling about his health and dying, but his son... And be kind to her, he wants the best for her, he does care about her. But his son, it's because he's obviously so disappointed.

He's so disappointed in this child that isn't the boy that he wanted. And even through that, he suggests that Joe married. I know. He knows his son is gay and suggests he marries Dora. Yeah. So still, I mean, we'll... probably never for the whole of his life drop the, you know, and if you could just marry someone, it doesn't matter what you feel. Yeah, he's, he's asking him to, like, swallow his whole soul, isn't he? Because it's like, but that's, and Fish is doing the same thing. He's like,

that's what, he keeps saying, but that's what we do. Like, that's what you do. Like, we can't, come, and he sort of fish says to him at one point, doesn't he? Like, come on, like, you know, we can't be together. Like, we have to go and pretend. But how old, how old do you think they are? Is it ever explicit? Because I presume very young, as in early 20s. I think it's, I think it's, says at one point, doesn't it? Or maybe it doesn't? I definitely feel it's early 20s, isn't it? Like, they're definitely young. That would be my guess. There's also no like time to it.

Yeah. This could be like post-war or like the 90s. I have no idea. There's little wooden boats. Yeah. But there are fishing communities. Fire has been invented. But yeah, no one's bringing anyone on a mobile. Could be any time between 100 BC or 9-19. 18.

If you just like pin it down. I sort of feels quite 80s to me. Yeah. I thought about that. The flies and dog shit makes you think it's 80s. I think it was maybe hotter. Andrew, you're too young to remember. It was very hot.

It was hotter. And also just as John's age as well. Is John our age? Yes, I think so. Yeah, maybe, yeah, he is. And so that made me think, it felt sort of 80s, 90s. That's not his face on the front cover, is it? That is a pretty boy.

How do you imagine, how do you think they scanned through the sort of photographic archives to get, because I thought that was Brian Cox, well it was. The scientist. I don't like faces real. I don't mind cartoon images, but I don't like genuine real faces. It's hard, isn't it? Yeah.

Because I want to picture this person myself. Yes. Yeah. I wonder if they did actually do a video. Like, they went back to Norfolk with this company, John was telling me, and they, like, got loads of young people from the community to make a video about the book.

And I wonder if it is one of the actors from... A still from that. I don't know. Maybe Brian Cox was in it. Maybe Brian Cox was in a video. The other thing I loved as an ex-English student was the, I mean, you could write so much, you could write a whole fucking essay on the fish thing. So the character's called fish.

There is, he's always talking about the fish. We have a whale. The fish that he's, the pike he captures with his dad. He keeps in a box under his bed. And he's describes himself when he's talking about his love for fish. I'd still be caught in a line. So it's all this fishing metaphor. And then I said there's all this red.

stuff as well about fish's hair and the match and the fire and Birdie's boat is red. Like there's so much. So what are you pitching your dissertation? Yeah, I don't know. I think for me, it's the two elements of fire and water in this book and the tension between them both. Yeah. Yeah, because he wants to burn, well, Doug tries to burn him today.

Yes, yes, the petrol. Yeah, there's all this like fire and water stuff. How did you feel about like where this river was? Because it seems like the house is like on the river. And this marsh is like, I could get up. Flats of Norfolk, and there's Essex, I don't know if you ever saw, the Essex serpent. Yeah, yeah.

It's sort of everywhere. Yeah. But I thought it's so interesting at how that has affected everybody so much. Like this, like they all either work on this river, or they understand the marsh, like they're living on it on houseboats. Like, as someone who grew up in the suburbs. At times I was like, fuck, this must be, what a strange place to live. It's so on your doorstep.

And not in a fun way. Not in a fun way. Everyone come jump out in the canoe. You were saying about Kings Inn. It's like, no. Not fun seaside. It's hard. It put me off living in a...

Because I've looked at houseboats because the rent, the market is crazy and everything else. And no, I'd never would now from this book. I would never consider houseboats. Do you know something that's not even mentioned in this book, but you get very big spiders on houseboats.

So you just have to be water. Yeah, because they're near the water. They can catch those of flies. So they're really massive. My brother and his wife lived on a houseboat for some time. And she's Japanese, but she's a spider.

She's a spider. She speaks perfect. English and she put her hand in her drawer where her underwear was to get her underwear. And there was a giant slug. And for five minutes, she could only speak in Japanese. So my brother didn't know what was going on. She was like, she was like saying on his Japanese. And I can't remember the word for slug. But she just kept saying it. And he was like, what has happened? What has happened? And she said she forgot how to speak English. She was so horrified. That's how scary the boat. I hate. I don't mind spiders, but slugs. Yeah. In her, in her pants.

Yeah. Grim. Yeah. And that's when I think they moved out pretty soon. She was like, I'm done. I'm done with this. She set fire to it and off they went. Maybe that's why there were so many fires on boats. Yeah. It's horrible. Yeah, it was grim. That's really, really grim.

Okay, I'm trying to try and think about things that did make it sound fun. Yeah. But I don't know if it's, I don't know if it's meant to be fun. Because I think it's about a period in your life where things aren't fun because you don't know who you are and you're figuring out, like you said, maybe you have to leave where you're from. So it's sort of it that bit where you're from. Which is not fun.

Because this heartbreaking thing of like, he keeps getting drawn back to, I mean, first of all, he's got family obligations. Yes. But as we know, his mother's died. He doesn't really have any love for his father. And Birdie is off. So, you know, she's not around. So really, the family obligations aren't that strong. Yeah.

Because he goes away, the book is after he goes away, but not far away. It seems like it's like the next town over. Yeah. For two years, he's just sort of not there. So it comes back in my reading of it purely for fear. And I think this is a heartbreaking thing of I wish you'd never met Fish. Yeah. Because if he went away, because the options are, it's like the better devil you know,

either be gay with fish who you know and it's never perfect, but you know him and it exists and it's safe, or you go out into the world and be gay and alone and you have no concept of what that's even like. Whereas as much of that sounds really heartbreaking, if the only option was gay and alone, he might have gone and found a bigger city, a bigger community. But you know what he would have said to you? Is Harry all he feels to me, because Dora does suggest something similarly.

Dora's relationship with fish has left her wishing she'd never really met him. He didn't leave her life better. He hasn't left her better. Her reflection on it is, I wish she hadn't happened. Whereas Joe says, I won't consider life without fish in it. And I think that's what love is. And unfortunately, like, you know, whether it's oneself or someone you care about in a relationship where you think this is eroding you or taking away or not making you happy,

unfortunately when you love a person that you're stuck going that is the thing that I know because to come back to that community is mad you're right there's nothing there for him and that's sort of what you feel the community's also saying to him like why are you back

like we don't want you I just think it's a really great book I just think to ask those questions in a book like where is home what does it mean to be home he raises lots of questions without answering them which I think is my favourite kind of book when they're not giving you

all those things. I tell you something I did actually learn. Yes. In terms of like the... How much spit you need for... Well, there's that. But actually much more about the revelation of a penis, as in the moment a penis appears.

Because... Because we are... Joe is narrating, we are seeing the world through Joe's eyes. Yeah. We're not responding to the arrival of a penis how I would respond. What?

What? Because there's either... I mean, there's a spectrum, but it's a short one. one between terror. It was cold. It's not a short one. Terror, horror.

Surprise, but in a very immature way. Yeah. That shouldn't be here. You see what I mean? And actually... That's not how Joe feels. To have a gay man's perspective, which is just like a ladder of pubic hair

to a penis of a certain kind of rigidity from like, you know, very hard, almost hard. Yeah, there's quite a little scale for how hard Joe feels about things as well. Yeah, so he has his own response. God, it must be just incredible. to have a penis. Freud was right. And to sort of have a reading on all situations

or just always absolutely, you know, bang on. Yeah, because I guess it's not the same having a vulva vagina situation. There is an arousal. Yeah, but you don't have that like... It's not the top thought. No. And equally boobs don't like, they ache for hormone reasons.

They don't ache because somebody is like... Or because it's chilly. Yeah, yeah. It's not often... Like the way he's talking about his bollocks aching. And I did believe him. I felt like, yeah, I can imagine that your bollocks are telling you a lot more than my boobs are telling me. It's hard to comparison, obviously.

Boobes are not bollocks. I'm aware of that. No, no, they're not interchangeable. But unfortunately, humans don't come with that attachment. At terms of like what novels are for, in terms of empathising with someone that you are not. I have never been as inside a male body, and I'm not doing a pun there,

about how many men were also inside him and vice versa. I lived a male body for a little more. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I felt like that reading this as well. Oh, yeah. Perhaps that was, that was not an aspect that was... No, I mean, it definitely does feel like that.

And I think, like, what I was saying earlier of that, you can understand sex. It's because, as you say, it's like an obvious, oh, well, I am aroused now, so I guess I want sex. And yeah, I guess, you know, there's layers of it where, you know, Hold Your Horses is described as a bit dim. I mean, on my one criticism is I don't necessarily like the portrayal of Hold Your Horses. I think I'd like him to be... Yeah. Because I think he has his own stories. Like he's obviously got homosexual tendencies and like surely he has emotions about that.

But it's sort of just made out to be just wanting to have sex. So that's my only like criticism. But then also you can't explore everything in a book. But yeah. So there's this distinction between, oh, well, sex is understandable. But then John's, you can tell he's so much more aroused and into it when it is emotional. I mean, that's sort of, I often described as like demisexual where you're like, oh, you have sexual arousal when you have an emotional connection.

which I don't think Joe is because he has random hookups as well but like after oh have we revealed what happens to fish for the way I just for us about to spoil it well we haven't but we haven't so if you don't want to know stop listening now or put us on silence and we still get that you listen to as a record our listeners were so keen after the first five minutes they've already paused the podcast to run to their local waterstones

or their library or the library and we described it as suffocating and needing to be sober They were like, yes. That's it. Ooh, that's for me. But when, so Fish dies and that Fish is funeral, straight after, he gets kicked out of the funeral because he's like, you're not welcome here. You're part of the reason Fish is dead. Yeah.

Which is obviously not true. It's just a tragic accident. And he goes to hook up with Hold Your Horses, but he can't get hard. He's not aroused. Because he thinks that's his first solution is, oh, well, what takes the pain away? What do I escape into? It's sex. but it's sort of maybe his first realization that, oh no, to me, sex is more than just a, you know, a transaction, I guess.

He emotionally cannot be sexually aroused because he's so heartbroken about fish. So grieving. And actually, I know what you mean about hold your horses, but I think it's interesting because we're so in Joe's head that Joe is horrible to him. And Joe doesn't investigate him as a human because he becomes who he goes to after fish. And so there's this real like self-hatred about it. And because Hold Your Horses is like, yeah, okay, I'm upset with you. And he's so keen. He's the fish in that dynamic.

He's fish and Hold Your Horses is Joe. So he gets this kind of, you can see this kind of horrible satisfaction of being like, at least I'm not Hold Your Horses, like in terms of fish. Like I had more dignity. And it's just that horrible chain that happens when you're young of like when you are in love with someone who's not in love with you. But then there's someone else who's after you and you're like, oh, get away, you're disgusting. Why won't they love me?

This is horrible. Also, it's because he can't give him what he wants, which is, I guess, it's not just sex. It's arousal is the thing that sort of switches off other thoughts. You're not focusing or feeling. And because he can't arouse him, hold your horses. He's failed him. Yeah, he's just looking for that, like out, isn't he?

Like he said, just to not feel things anymore. And, yeah, I mean, it is a book about grief. And grief is a huge part of it. Have you had to hold that in? I'm so sorry, Karen. But so many of the books, we read are not grief books. No, no. But grief affects the whole of life. Do you want to do a podcast book cast? It's called The Whole of Lifecast. Lifecast. I interview babies and ghosts. But yeah, the grief, but that's why I like it because the grief, because the grief in this book

is doing what grief actually does is it's not, sometimes you can't just sit on grief, but it affects everything. And that's what I think grief actually does. It just gets into every aspect of your life, it makes every aspect of your life trickier and more emotional and more upsetting. You don't just sit there going, today I'm grieving and I'm not going to do anything else. You're like, I'm trying to work. I'm trying to have sex. I'm trying to live my life. Oh, and I feel shit and I don't know why.

And that's why I think... Because she had sex at work. It depends what your job is. That's true. Yeah. That's true. I think there are like three elements that are like manifestations of his grief or his trauma or however you want to describe it. But like the whale speaking to him and like the hub

being the harbinger of death, the river speaking to him and then him constantly wetting himself. Yes. Water, water. This is going in the station. That was so amazing. I mean, this isn't a spoiler, but just the fact he has a wee in the toilet in the morning at the end. It's just a sign that he didn't piss himself in the night for the first time.

I know. I was like, smudging those sheets. It's crazy how each of those elements disappears as he has a revelation or like comes to terms with something. Like he comes to terms with his mother's death and then not long after the sort of like the whale disappears from the equation and then something else. else happens. He decides not to get revenge.

There's a whole. And I just thought it was so incredible. The dealing with hate, making a decision about what to do with hate, realizing that's what his dad hadn't done perhaps to sort of stay in such a negative, horrible place. And then, yeah, to make a decision of living with less hate or no hate. So incredible he wrote this book on his fucking phone. Because it's so, I'm sure he then typed it up on the computer, but it's so,

layers of it. I've heard months that Alexa Chung texted her book to her. I'm pretty sure it's Alexa Chung. Sorry if it's not, but she texted it to her book agent and they sort of compiled it for her. So maybe John did the same. Maybe John did the same. Every time we got to work, just WhatsApp. But it's like, there's so many layers to this. And that's why I've been banging on about it since we started this podcast because I just think, and I said to you, like, you're someone who does read a lot of queer writing and you hadn't heard of it, particularly. And it did do very well. It won a lot of prizes. And it, um, got good reviews, but I still think it's a book that like should be sort of celebrated a bit more

and shoved out a bit more because it's like it's just, the writing is fucking great and it's light, not going to not mention it, it's like, guys, it's a nice light book. Very nice, easy, pop that in your bag. Andrew, have you got any book recommendations for me and Carriads? Oh, yeah, especially like more. Yes, more well read. As in like, I'm going to my story graph out. How do you?

Yeah, I mean. Because that's what we need to make sure we do. Yeah. And also, yeah, if you've got something like, if you haven't read enough queer writing, these ones would be a good place to start. Yeah. So Brontes Pernel, he's got a book called A Hundred Boyfriends. That's very similar to this,

but even more so, very blunt about sex. And it very much exposes the sort of like hookup culture of homosexuality in the modern day. Lie with me by Philippe Bissom. Beautiful. He's a French writer. And that's a very short book,

148 pages. Speaking of my language. Yeah. And that's a really sweet one. And then I'll also recommend as a final one, I've got a lot of, I've started reading a lot of graphic novels. We need to read a graphic novel. I know, but my daughter only reads graphic novels.

So it's like, I get a bit fed up a reading. What about Fun Home? Have you read Fun Home? Oh, no. Oh, that would be my fun recommendation. Okay. That is much more from a lesbian perspective. It's more very interesting about Alison Beckdale from the famous Bechdel test.

Yes, I knew I knew it. Yes, yeah. It's supposed to be really good. Okay, great. Let's do that. Yeah. Fun Home is a fantastic one. Okay.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Andrew and I were on a car journey months and months ago. I think from Leicester, where we go in?

Yeah, in January, yeah, yeah. And Andrew started talking about his reading and podcasting. And I dreamed of this moment where he came on our podcast to talk about this book. And it's now all come together. Oh, my goodness. It was inevitable. The fate, the whale foretold it. My balls have been telling me.

I knew. I don't want to say anything. Thank you for listening. the Weirdo's Book Club. Sarah's novel Weirdo and my book, You Are Not Alone, are also both out in paperback and available to buy now. You can find out all about the upcoming books we're going to be discussing on our Instagram at Sarah and Carriads Weirdo's Book Club. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you.