Sara & Cariad's Weirdos Book Club - Weirdo by Sara Pascoe with Shaparak Khorsandi and Emma Jane Unsworth (Live at 21Soho)

Episode Date: September 14, 2023

This week's book guest is Weirdo by Sara Pascoe.In a special live recording of the podcast, Sara and Cariad are joined by comedian and author Shaparak Khorsandi and screenwriter and author Emma-Jane Unsworth to discuss haemorrhoids, mums, dating, accents, being a grown up and more! Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you!Trigger warning: This episode includes mention of sexual assault.  Sara’s debut novel Weirdo is published by Faber & Faber and is available to buy here or on Apple Books here.Cariad’s book You Are Not Alone is published by Bloomsbury and is available to buy here.Shaparak's latest book Scatter Brain is published by Vermilion and is available to buy here.Emma Jane's books are available to buy here.Follow Sara & Cariad’s Weirdos Book Club on Instagram @saraandcariadsweirdosbookclub and Twitter @weirdosbookclubFollow Shaparak Khorsandi on Instagram and Twitter @ShappiKhorsandiFollow Emma Jane on Instagram @emjaneunsworth Recorded and edited by Aniya Das for Plosive.Photo by Ed Moore.Artwork by Welcome Studio.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Sarah Pasco. Hello, I'm Carriad Lloyd. And we're weird about books. We love to read. We read too much. We talk too much. About the too much that we've read. Which is why we've created the Weirdo's Book Club.

Join us! A space for the lonely outsider to feel accepted and appreciated. A place for the person who'd love to be in a real book club, but it doesn't like wine or nibbles. Or being around other people. Is that you? Join us. Check out our Instagram at Sarah and Carriads Weirdo's Book Club for the upcoming books we're going to be discussing. discussing. You can read along and share your opinions. Or just skulk around in your

raincoat like the weirdo you are. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you. This week we are coming live from 21 Soho in London for our first ever live episode. We were very thrilled to be joined by author and screenwriter Emma Jane Unsworth and comedian and author Shapi Korsandi. And this week's book guest is Weirdo by Sarah Pasco. Sarah, is your book out now. Yes. And can people buy it right now? Yes, they can. Then do. It's so easy. How can you resist? In this episode we talk about hemorrhoids. Cisditis. Mums. Awkward interviews. Dating. Audiobooks. Accents. And being a grown up. Trigger warning, we also mention rape in this episode. Everybody. Hello. So now, very exciting, we'd like to welcome our guests. We have an acclaimed comedian award winning. She's been on things like Live at the Apollo and Michael Mercantyre's Road Show. And she's also written incredible books. She's written nonfiction like a beginner's guide to acting English and more recently Scatterbrain about ADHD. They're both fantastic. And she's also written fiction. Nina is not okay. And kissing Emma. Please really welcome Shapi Corcanda. Thank you. Our next guest is the very incredible Emma Jane Unsworth.

She is an incredible successful novelist, short story writer, screenwriter, showrun and producer. She's the author of Hungry, The Stars and Everything, Animals and Adults. She was shortlisted for the Portico Prize for Fiction, and her book, Animals, was turned into a film in 2014. She's an extraordinarily talented writer and human, and she's here tonight to talk to us about Sarah's book. Please welcome Emma Jane Unsworth. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining the Weirdo's Book Club. Our special guest book this week is Sarah Pasco's Weirdo.

Yes. So why is the book Weirdo in the Weirdo's Book Club? Because Sarah said so. Because Sarah said so. That's why this podcast exists. All the rest of the guests are just a smokescreen for this episode. Why is it in the Weirdo's Book Club, Sarah? Why do you think this book should be in the Weirdo's Book Club?

Apart from inspiring the Weirdo Book Club. Why did I call it Weirdo? I just assumed it's called it. weirdo because the main character Sophie thinks her mum is looking at her through her cat. I mean, I don't want to judge. But you can. That's quite brilliantly weird. Yeah.

Yeah. Sophie thinks she's weird because she can hear all of her own thoughts. I think if you were to meet her, you know, she was to serve you in a pub or be one of your friend's friends, you wouldn't necessarily go home and go, that woman's absolutely bonkers because you wouldn't know a lot of those thoughts. But, yeah, in terms of the Weirdo's Book Club, yes, she's. She has had phases of things like, yeah, thinking her mama's secret video cameras looking at her, which apparently not everyone does.

Yeah, I think the cat thing is reason enough to be in the weirdos book club. We don't need any more. Do you want to tell us very briefly in a sentence what happens in the book for people who haven't read it yet? I find that really hard. It is hard, and it's not a question you approved. No, it's an unapproved question. And I know that all of you have written books and have written fiction books, the trouble is when you just still it down to like a tweet length.

It sounds so shit. You still didn't give us in a civil sentence. I honestly think if I describe the story of this book, it sounds rubbish. I had so much problems with, like, blurbing it or, like, with the publishing and stuff because it sounded like a girl trying to find a boyfriend. Yeah, I wouldn't put that as the blurb. I don't know what it was about. Shall I try?

I think it's about a person trying to find themselves whilst... See, it sounds bad. No, that doesn't sound bad. That's the beginning of the blur, but that was it. A person trying to find themselves, boom, I would not pick up that book on the bookshelf. I'd be like, oh, okay. A person who was emotionally neglected by her parents, but on the surface, fed and clothed and watered. So on paper they were fine.

And with the really shoddy tools, they gave her, in terms of her self-esteem and confidence, you tried to have the sort of romance that films tell you exists and Cinderella books tell you that it's out there for you but she's stumbling around in the dark and bonking entirely the wrong people. Shappi should write your blubs. Yeah, and definitely keep the word bonking in. I love the word bonking.

You just don't hear that word enough anymore. Like bonking and snog, you don't get enough. I only bonk. You only bonk. Yeah. I can't move on from bonking. I don't think I'm classy enough to bonk. Emma Jane, where are you with bonking?

Oh, always willing. Slightly rusty, possibly. No? But I think it's also a book about obsession. That's what I loved about it the most. It's about a really obsessive mind that I think is really hard to do, but also perfect for the novel

because I think the novel is almost the natural habitat of the weirdo and of the weird mind. That's what I think. Because it's a tete-a-tete, isn't it? It's like you write in solitude to be read in solitude. So you can really go deep on the weirdness of one person's mind. And I think Sophie is just so, her mind is working so fast and she's so, so, so obsessive. And there's not really another medium that I can think of that you could do that in successfully other than a book.

Yeah. I don't know if you guys found this about the editing process. But obviously the first go, you send it off when you think it's reasonable to show somebody who could technically end your contract. and then having another human being read it for the first time. Originally, Sophie was much more obsessive and much more paranoid. Oh, okay. Interesting. And it was all dialed down.

I think what you're describing that it's you and a character and you understand them so well. And an actual novel going out to the public is working out how to translate it and bridge it so that you're not leaving anyone behind. And it's not things that only you understand and only them. It's just our secrets. Was that edit choice yours?

Or was that more other people's reactions to drafts of like, oh, were they like, no one's that obsessive? And you were like, yes, they are. But it's a bit like doing stand-up if no one laughs. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, we're people pleases. So someone might say, I think this bit really takes you out of the novel, you know. And your first thought is, you are so wrong.

This is the most perfect thing anyone has ever written. And this is the crux of it. But actually it sits in you for a few days until you then look at it again with fresh eyes and go, yeah, I can't, it's not there. But the Waterstone's edition of the book, they let me put in 2,000 words that were cut. Wow. Like, so for instance, I wrote a scene of a soap opera that Sophie and her mum were watching, and it's on Christmas Day, and there's a festive sinkhole. So there's a mum and her daughter, and they're trying to escape for a bad boyfriend, but they get sucked in by a sinkhole, and then there's like a scarf that comes up

before the theme tune. And after an editor said to you, like, I don't think you need that. And you're like, what? But it's the best thing I've ever written. And then you come back to and go, oh, okay. You should have sent it to EastEnders as a special episode.

I've actually put in the Waterstone's edition, if anyone from EastEnders, does want me to do a special sinkhole Christmas episode. Always networking. Always networking. That would be my dream. Shappi, do you feel like that in edits?

Is it a process of having to translate what was in your head versus what other readers are saying? Yeah. And to this day, I remain mortified at the pre-edited bits that other human beings might still have on their hard drives. It feels like those first few drafts feel like pages of your diary. And I would get comments like, that's a bit much. And do you really want people to know that?

But what I do is, after I finish it, I forget what's in it. And then someone will bring it up with you. And I go, my God, did I say that? Did I tell people that? With Weirdo, I want a sequel about the mum, because I was intrigued by the way that she kind of saw everything as a film, and maybe this isn't real. And the romances, like, to me, weren't.

But what I wanted to know was what the hell happened to that mum. And there was this line that broke my heart when she talks about her mom. And then you say something like, but then she'll really give the love and say you're the best thing ever. And I just imagine these two little girls not knowing where they fucking stand with this woman that they are stuck with who has her own stuff and how they do not have a prayer. The two sisters are taught, is that bit, isn't it? Sophie and Dana and they're talking about her drinking. Yeah. And saying that, you know, she keeps saying I'm not an alcoholic, but then she'll start stroking their hair and actually saying she loves them, which the rest of the time is just what she's.

soap opera is like on a recorded schedule. I think there's a thing with parents and that we really think that we understand them. And actually there's a real limit because we get their biography told purely through their version. And so I knew that Sophie couldn't understand her mom, but I needed the reader to understand her a little bit. You were empathetic. There's a lot of empathy towards the mum.

But again, that was something where after a first draft, I had to find something likable about her. You have to care about people in books. Can I just bring the chat briefly to haemorrhoids? Oh, please, please, please. Can you bring it back to hemorrhoids for ages? Can we celebrate? My therapist told me that haemorrhoids are to do with your mother.

And I just want to say that. It was such a weird thing. And then I just wanted to put that out there, guys. But I genuinely don't think that hemorrhoids are talked about enough. But I was so glad that you were openly hemorrhoiding. Yeah, openly hemeriding. There are things that happen to your body. And so cystitis is another one that are so big while they're happening.

And actually periods for lots of people, especially if you have endometriosis or certain other conditions, that you're expected to carry on with your life, but so much of your headspace and your decision-making and your happiness level, your wellness. You know, it's clouded. And debt is another thing that I think if you are in debt, it doesn't need to be hundreds of thousands. It is there when you wake up. It is always there wherever you are. You can't escape it. So hemorrhoids and debt.

I was like... I'm seeing that now in the book. There's the coalition between those. There's a relationship between her debt and her hemorrhoids and the internal suffering that she's going through that isn't taken seriously. I want to know more about it being related to the mum. But how will I make sure my kids don't get really bad hemorrhoids?

I know. I know. I don't read on the loo. Don't read on the loo. Yeah, that's apparently how I got mine. I was warned. for years by my mum, don't read on the Lou. Because you're sitting there for too long. Yeah, I mean, my brother used to call me Bog Woman.

That's still where I do most of my reading. Cicitis, apparently I read, is like literally pissed off. Like, then you don't express it. You're not expressing being pissed off at someone. So it's like... Burning rage. Yeah, you're literally, there's quite a female... It feels that way.

...thing, isn't it? Not expressing it, yeah. I've only ever had cisitis once? Oh, it's awful. I can't believe you've got away with all that bonging and only one cystitis back. You're very lucky. It's all working. That's great. I agree with you, cystitis is, I have only experienced hemorrhoids during pregnancy,

I should say, not a regular thing for me, but it takes up all this space. I know the book people are thinking didn't think it would be this medical. But that's what happens when you get four women together talking, honestly. I remember at university being told that James Joyce, I'm pretty sure this is the right way around.

James Joyce was the first author to have a character doing a wee. And Samuel Bethel was the first author to have a character. Maybe it might be like a very respectable. Jonathan Swift wrote stuff about shitting. Really? Well then my university was alive. The worst thing I've ever read is Henry Miller, Chopic of Cancer, and a character wipes their ass with a piece of bread

and goes into it in detail. And I, like, even as a young person, I read it quite young, I thought, you dirty bastard. And I didn't want to read the book anymore. I thought, that is just so disgusting. Were they doing your shit in the kitchen? or was there a loaf unexpectedly in the bathroom? No, he does a shit.

I mean, he's literally an arsehull character. He does a shit and there's no toilet rolls. He goes to the kitchen and gets a slice of bread. And he really goes into it. And I was like, this was like penguin classic. And I thought, no, this is not classic. This is unacceptable. Like, I'm just supposed to carry on with this character.

How am I? Henry Miller and trust and like him. I think he's fucking disgusting. Sounds like a king. But also, isn't there a thing with writing at all that you're always worried that the reader is going to think, well, they know a lot about hemorrhoids. Well, yes.

This is probably about their hemorrhoids. Henry Miller. Well, let's do both books next week. I was furious. I've never read them again. And I thought, yes, too much. My first book, though, I was so nervous, just like the day before it came out,

that everyone who read it would think that the sex in it, which was very minimal, very, very tame. But I just thought that they'd all think that was the way I had sex. I was thinking, oh, my God, like my boss at the big issue where I was, and my mom and my dad and everything. Everyone is just going to think, that's how I like to have sex. And I was like, I need to recall it, I need to change it. I'm like gave a shit at all.

But you just kind of have this kind of worry that, especially if you're writing the first person, I think, especially if you write semi-autobiographical things, then, you know, then everyone will just immediately think that's the way you do things. And when you first start out, that can be such a worry. It can really put you up. I made a terrible mistake in that I thought that young adult meant 14 to 18. because I don't read my emails. But young adult, if you are commissioned to write a young adult novel, it's 11 to 13.

They're kids. I mean the filth I wrote. The filth. The lawsuits. Publishers are so polite compared to the comedy industry. So we were just thinking, perhaps if we can imply this rather than. And eventually it twigged. And then I then thought, oh my God, they think.

that I think that this filth is acceptable for 11-year-olds. So then I had to write these really weird, long, needy emails to just reassure them that's not what I think. She said to them, look, it's young adult, but we can bring out a second version that's adult. So when the kids grow up, like the Harry Potter grows up with them, then they go and buy the filthy version. Does there a filthy version of Harry Potter that you're working on, Carrie, ads?

Late night, Harry Potter. The internet has already done that. The internet is as bad as Henry Miller, generally. They could just do a spell to clean their bombs. If there was no toilet paper at Hogwarts. Hemorrhoid spell. I bet they've got a hemorrhoids spell. Snape must have done one in his time.

Sarah, are you feeling like that, like Emma Jane was saying, this vulnerability of the author that people are going to immediately say, because the character of Sophie is from Essex. Well, I'll tell you what my mum said when she read it. Yes. My mum's really supportive and in colourful. And so she read the book and then she said, oh, I really feel like I understand you now. And I said, oh, but it's not about me.

How did she feel about the mother? Well, exactly. She didn't say anything about that? No. There was one thing I took out. It's odd because you're writing fiction, but you find things are lodged in your head. A sentence someone said 10 years ago or the way something looked and, I'm. I wrote in how my mum does her recycling.

And then I cut it. Because I thought if I give the mum character my mum's recycling habit, even though it would fit her, it's a signpost. All you have to do is dedicate the book to them. And then they'll never sue you. That's what I did. That's what I did. It's one of my favourite dedications I've ever read.

And I text you immediately after I read it because it says, for Gail, which is Sarah's mum's name. Am I your favourite now? Question wrong. Sarah has two sisters. and I just laughed out loud when I read that because I was like, I mean, because you sort of mean it. Yeah, yeah, it's an ongoing.

The current favourite, my mum puts it in her phone so that when you call it, so at the moment it says Cheryl's favourite daughter, and that's what you're competing for. How do we get past that as authors, I'm asking all of you, the vulnerability when it comes to writing, how do you let that not block you? I have to say that I was, with what I know now,

I would have navigated interviews with more confidence. So I wrote a book called Nina's Not Okay, about an 18-year-old girl who is grieving and she is an alcoholic. She falls into booze. And actually somebody texts me, a comedian and said, I really feel like I know you better now after reading Nina. I was like, really? He just said, I know you better now. I was like, wow, that's fascinating. No.

But the first interview I ever had about my book, and I've never been interviewed about a novel before, right? It's my first novel. I'm beside myself excited. And she goes, well, you know what I'm going to ask you first. I was like, no. And she goes, have you been raped? I know. First. That's the first. And she, the assumption. That's when you want a hemorrhoids question. Yeah.

I thought it would be about cystitis, hemorrhoids. And at the time, I didn't have that. It really knocked me off my feet. And I just went, I don't think it's, answer that. So that's like interviewing Henry Miller and going first question. Have you worked your ass with a piece of bread? They wouldn't ask that of Henry Miller.

No. But they're not qualified to. deal with the answer. Yeah. She's so wise. That would have been such a brilliant answer. You're not qualified to deal with the answer. Bitch.

And then you mic'd drop and you walk out the interview and you're published like, oh, Shappy, sorry, just think you do need to go back in. There's been a lot of talk recently about authors and protection. I do think that's a weird thing of like everybody wants the author to be vulnerable and to share this really personal story and we talk about authentic.

voice and we sell books to each other like oh it really happened to her this is so amazing but then when it comes to interviews and PR it's like you're just a slab of meat ready for everyone to poke you but don't you think as women don't you think we'll ask that question more how much of our characters are us and how much you know is true for us I don't think men are asked those same questions they're allowed to be existential or you know have you know more analytical philosophical approaches to or as I think we're always completely embroiled with the with the characters that we've created, the really brilliant thing that you've done in this book, I think,

is be so close to a character who's really unreliable and a writer who's really unreliable, which I think is really hard to do, to sort of like to meet out the information to the reader as to how much, you know, you're gonna give away consciously as the author and how much we've got to guess whether she's a weirdo or not. So you've gotta be so, so close, I think,

to the character when you're the author writing that. And that must have been quite hard to, when you've got a, a character whose brain you're in so much and that you're embodying so much to separate yourself out at the same time as knowing that you are an author and this is a piece of work?

Yeah, I think, so I've been obsessed since university with unreliable narrators. The minute that they were sort of pointed out to me, the idea that an author could tell the reader something while the character doesn't know. The character that doesn't know is wrong. And I really enjoy, I wanted the reader to trust me

and think that they knew the same as the character, and then find out something else. So what it reminded me a lot was writing an hour, Edinburgh show, which is in some ways, especially it was knitted together with five minutes. Your brain has to sort of then suddenly run a marathon where you're remembering at each stage. So I think that was the really helpful thing to me is just keep remembering what had happened before.

I read a Zadie Smith interviewer, where she said that she started right back at the beginning every day. So she reads the whole thing. I'd never finish anything if I did that. It takes ages, but it means. Lady Smith. You can't do it once it's past like 200 pages, but you can spend a couple of hours.

It means that the beginning is really, really, really what you mean. So I did that with my book Scatterbrain. Oh, yeah. To the extent that it was like a year and a half late. And again, they're super polite publishers when you know when people have had a meeting about you. Yes. Oh, yeah, I know that feeling. How are you getting on?

And they're like, do you think it'll be helpful if we got not? Not a co-writer, no. Go away. And anyway, they said to me, we need you to get this out of the 80s now. We need you to get out of secondary school because my book was just about, it just became about my secondary school and about my education. And it would just, I just got myself ironically in an ADHD loop about it. But it doesn't surprise me because you must have been remembering so many things,

looking at them from a completely different viewpoint. So of course that would take time to process. Yeah. And that was really strange, but I really am proud that I stuck to my guns about not rushing it, get it out. And then I thought, you know, and you have to start thinking that this isn't hopefully going to be the only book I ever write. So if this particular point is a big area of interest, there are many podcasts to do. To talk about ADHD and the effect it had on my education. Did you read your own audiobook?

Yeah. How did you find that? When I read my non-fiction, I mean, I just found it humiliating. Like, low-level embarrassing to some points, highly embarrassing. Because you're sent to a room for a week with a stranger. And, I mean, yes, they're paid to be there. And then you have to tell them all of your secrets. Which you are telling in a book.

But when you're writing, you don't think about that. You're not face-to-face with someone. But, okay, jump into bed. Okay. You're not ready at that point, though. But fiction's different because the characters have accents and stuff, and I hadn't done any thought about that. And so then it would be like, she said in her Irish brogue.

So I would recommend buying the book and then downloading the audio book to read along. I don't do any of the accents. And you could do the accents yourself. I did the coward's way out. But it was just me and an engineer. And I said, should I be, I said, oh, should I be doing? If that's your Irish, should I be doing the old Irish here? I was like, is it weirder if I say she says no Irish brogue in an Essex accent or, oh, oh, double be, Liz.

Or if I say it like that and then so yeah, I didn't do any of the accents. I think that's the best way because I didn't think about the accent thing. When I did Nina's Not Okay, I had a Pakistani taxi driver that had quite an intense conversation with Nina's mom. Yes, yeah, I know that bit. And honestly, it was like Peter Sellers sounded like a Rada graduate. I mean, he might have been, I don't know, but it was like, horrific. Thank God I'm not white. It was hell.

Hell on earth. And I stuck a guy from Leeds in there. Because you don't think at that point, because the book is the book and the story needs to be told. You're not thinking one day, I'll be contractually obliged. They've never let me read my own audiobooks ever. This is something I'm very insulted about. If you want to do it in Ireland, Sarah could do.

Yeah, that's funny. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll two-hand it. But yeah, they've never let me. and I've sent them examples of me reading it to try and entice them and every time they've gone like, it's really good

but no, and you feel like the person who's trying to sing Whitney Houston at karaoke and you know you just can't and then an actor does it and you see why you can't do it and you have to like, yeah, yeah,

okay, there's so much better because they can do all the other voices and they put a proper ending at the end of all the words which you maybe don't do as a normal person. Well, I've only done it once and it was horrible as well, I'd agree.

So I think I've done other audio books, other people, audiobooks that I haven't written, that's very enjoyable because then you can lose yourself. But when it's yours, I think, like you said, you're just constantly criticising or looking at sentences thinking, fucking out, that doesn't make sense. Oh, I did a couple of edits as I went. Oh, did you? Yeah, I was like, come on, that's a clunky sentence.

I edit. Every time I read out, I edit. Every time I do a reading, it changes. Why not? Are you reading it out as your writing? Is that a process for you as well, to read it out loud? Sometimes, although I often can't bear to do that. too soon. Yeah. I find

I have to occasionally, otherwise I literally can't hear it properly. The script, I'd always do that. I'd always get a friend on a Zoom and go through it before I submitted it. You do definitely find the clunky sentences your eyes can't see when you're saying it out loud. And you're like, I don't know where to breathe in this sentence.

I need to look at this sentence again. You told me that, and I feel like you told me Shappi told you that. You said to me when I was writing, you said read it out loud. Both Shappie and Mark Watson said to me when I wrote my first book, say it all out loud before you sign off on the edit because that's how you catch it and I was too lazy and I found those sentences at the audio book. Yeah, you gave me good advice and that's why I give it to other things. It is a good idea. I'm going to start doing that with my

stand-up as well. Just say it out loud before I... Once, when I very first started gig in there was another comedian who practiced his entire set to the wall. I'm not going to say who it was, but I thought that's what comedians were like. It was like a weird power move. To be fair, character stand-up nights everyone is doing that, but everybody's doing it, so it's fine. I want to just talk a little bit about the quote

that you have at the beginning, the Jeanette Winterson quote. Yeah. It is much better to read yourself as fiction, not as fact. And I wondered if you could tell us what your feelings are on Jeanette. That's from Jeanette Winterson's autobiography.

She actually mentions, she uses that quote several times in different formulations, because she's telling her story of her life and especially her relationship with her mother and being a young child, when you tell something as a story, it becomes your version of events,

it becomes a narrative, and also when you're publishing it, it has to be a successful story. So at so many points you move away from truth, that's what stand-up is all the time. It mutates, and so it's all true, none of it happened. But I like the idea of it as a coping mechanism.

I think over time, when people talk about time, healing wounds, or time making things easier. What it usually means is it's become either an anecdote or a longer story that you tell intimate people, but it's become something with the beginning and a middle and something that you then feel as past. That story has finished,

and you're not living through it anymore. And that Jeanette Winterson book is just, I mean, she's fantastic anyway, but it's just such a fantastic, convoluted, complicated, unsolvable. People can love each other and cause each other so much grief. it's like you clear emotional distance,

don't you want stuff once you've written it? And then it doesn't hurt anymore. You kind of push it out there and you abstract it with various devices and push it towards a reader and then it's like, okay, that can't hurt me anymore. And then you're like two years usually or so down the line by the time it comes out.

Even if it's fiction or nonfiction, it's kind of, it doesn't hurt anymore. Yeah, it's in this little bubble somewhere else, a balloon sort of separate from you. And that's definitely what I wanted to give Sophie as a character. But I wanted her to be modern. So for her, Love Island feels like a version of it. She's worrying about how

she would be edited. I love that bit when she says like she's doing something then she realizes if she was on Love Island or Big Brother, she would be not the popular one. She wouldn't come out well in her montage. Because that's, you're looking at yourself from outside, that is how you see yourself as

a character. That's what I wanted for her. I had an ex who said that to me once and he thought it was a compliment. But he said the thing about you, the great thing about you is if you were on Big Brother, you'd montage well. That was the compliment. Like in reality, no, but he thought on a clip situation. I was and I'm a celebrity to get me out here.

And I was the unpopular one. No. It was so, well, I was out first. It wasn't like, it was, I didn't fit in to such a mad extent. And I think when you're a stand-up, you're sort of trained for self-awareness. Yeah. And I couldn't do the performance of reality TV. Yeah.

because I saw it and I saw what it was and it wasn't for me because it is a performance. And Richard Osmond, I want to frame a text message that he, in fact, I think I put it in my book word for word, that he said to me something like this was an experiment you did with yourself to see what was important to you and what wasn't. Because I wanted to see what is it like that massive ITV fame? Going there, I saw what it took.

to stay in there and I was like oh nothing's worth that you just can't you can't because it's so unauthentic for me yeah they weave a story and you have to be quite skilled to be part of that story and that's the bit that wasn't for me so um when we finished it georgia tofalo who was very cool and she won it I was like you're amazing you knew what to and she goes I've been in reality TV since I was 18. I'm trained for this. But for me, there was a lot of performative empathy.

Endless performative empathy. And I didn't buy it and I got out and had a nice holiday, but it was really interesting. It's interesting, isn't it? It's a whole genre of show. It's a very popular genre of show. It takes up a large proportion of television. And Sophie is a character that is living

in her own reality TV show. That moment when she keeps saying, I wish I love, when she makes jokes that someone, someone's like what? She's like, oh, if you didn't hear the monologue before, it doesn't make sense. Yeah. This idea that there's like a narration going on someone, you know, in the big brother Sophie House is constantly commenting on what's happening to her. What I would equate is like with shows, even though we all know that, you know,

it's structured reality, whether it's like the jungle show or those kind of things. When we watch them, we want things to be true. We instantly, we don't think, oh, yeah, producers sat around and created it and then edited it. even when people come out of shows and say, I'm so unhappy with my edit, we're like, I know you. And Sophie's trying to convince herself. That's the thing that I would equate

is she is trying to be the producer. Yeah, it feels like she's doing everything. She's not in control of. She's the editor. She's the camera person. She's like constantly aware, extremely self-aware as a character of what's happening to her,

but also at the same time, not self-aware. But there's something I do think is universal. I haven't asked anyone. Is it hemorrhoids? When you've got music in your headphones, especially, I think it's something to do with public transport in London, whether it's walking on tubes or being on escalators, and a certain song comes on and it feels like you're in a film.

Oh, yeah. That's a really powerful. I remember when iPods first came out and you could walk you on and it was like, oh my God, I can be in a film now. Like I don't even have to imagine the song. I have 200 songs. and I can change which film I'm in. And so everything becomes backdrop.

Yeah. And suddenly everyone is an actor. Yeah. And that is mental. I don't think everyone's an actor. I just think I'm in a film. So who are the other characters? They're real.

Oh, I see. So they're not in your film? They're not in my film. Because they're not listening to that song. Do you have playlist for what you're writing, though? Because everything I'm writing I have a playlist for. Yeah, yeah. And as I'm listening to the playlist,

I like, work through the scenes that I think, and act them out myself, that are from the book or whatever I'm working on. I just like, you can't listen to music. No, but when I'm not writing, when I'm out like kind of walking or in the car or something, then I'll put on the playlist and I'll just track things through to check that they work to that song

because I always use music like that. I can write with music. Sometimes it froze me, but when I was writing about grief, I had to listen to a lot of Elgar. I think it was Elgar. And I have a friend who knows a lot more about classical music than I do.

And I said, what I listen? And he was like, Jacqueline, do. Prey playing this specific Elgar Suite and it's so haunting and bittersweet. So any time I was like feeling not that griefy and I was like, I've just been watching Octanauts with the kids. It's a sunny day. I'd be like, okay, here we go. Put on Jacqueline DePray.

Oh, God, my grief. So I found that it was like mood setting. And then once I had it, I was like, okay, now you have to switch it off because you're just pretending you're in a film. I could have played Jacqueline DePray. Why didn't I? That was 10 when that film came out. I don't like me.

music. So I don't listen to music, but what I did have was... She doesn't like music. Generally. No. She really genuinely doesn't like music. No. She doesn't listen. If you mentioned any music, it doesn't do anything for me. It just sounds noisy. No, there's a lot of different kinds of music. Yeah. Like, there's loads of different types. I think part of it's my dad's a musician. Rebellion thing. So he ruined it. But no, but it just doesn't really do anything for me. I can run to dance music from the 90s. But take that meant a lot to you. Take that broke up and then I never trusted music again. I was like, tell the real

turning point of the music was... I'm angry with Take That Now. Oh, because it's a film? Yeah, yeah. You like dancing. I do like dancing. I just haven't danced for a long time. But again, I think that's a bit like running.

When I'm dancing, I'm thinking about running, but I'm just doing it in different directions. She's not as fast about dancing songs, though, just as long as everyone's dancing. It's not like, oh, I have this song. And it has to be quite bad music. Yeah. But it sort of controls your heartbeat.

That's the most... that music can do for me, it can make my heart go, that's the beat. But do you ever get that, you don't get, like you don't have a favourite album? Or you don't go, I have to listen to this song right now. No, she's happy, I know. I know, and I feel your reaction and I've had it. But I was going to say, what I did have as a thing was that I had,

next to where I watched TV, a little pile of books, and it was Ian's reading list. So I kept having to imagine, there's a lot of Nietzsche. And there's a lot of books that men would tell you about. and tell you why you should read them even if you didn't want to. One of my favourite tweets ever is this woman tweeted my favourite game is to tell men that I've never heard of David Foster Wallace.

Oh yes, yeah. And just as more they explain it, just keep going, no, no, don't, not familiar. Are you sure he's real? Like, you should be mixing him up and just keep denying him until they get more and more upset and frustrated and keep telling you.

I just wanted to move on, very before we wrap it up, just to talk about, which is on the back of the book as a quote, Tonight, Matthew, I'm going to be a grown-up and in control. I respect myself for a moment and feel sad and sorry that some people are so lonely and there isn't enough love in the world for everyone. And I wanted to talk because I think all of you have written about being a grown-up, feeling like an adult, what that feeling is, does anyone ever achieve it? And whether you felt that you'd answered those questions.

That's a general question for everybody who wants to take it. Well, doctor. And pop your pants off. Let's have look at the hemorrhoids. I embrace loneliness. I think that's part of being a grown-up. Because I'm single and doggedly single. And with that comes the acceptance of loneliness.

But then you can be lonely in a relationship and all of that. But I'm enjoying sort of recognizing those waves. Yeah. Accepting them. And then letting them pass. Nice. And investing in. And I think that's.

the most grown-up thing I've ever done is not go, right, I'm single, I'm feeling lonely, who have I kept on ice? Sitting with an uncomfortable feeling, basically. Sitting, yeah, and it's taking me to 50 to do that. And it's really nice because every time I get, I feel blue and I think, I want to tell someone something cute that my daughter's done or my son said, and there isn't that special person. I can, you know, tell my friends about it. it, but they've got their kids.

When I feel like that, I suddenly remember that there isn't someone else's shoes in my hallway. Swings aroundabouts. And that is a sweet joy to me. I agree. I can see that. Emma Jane, what do you feel? I can boil an egg so that it is not either snotty or hard. Oh.

And I feel like that is such an accomplishment in my lifetime. and I'm so proud of it. And I can also drink really efficiently. Oh. And really... Do you mean water or alcohol? Alcohol, alcohol. And water.

And water, that's the key. The way you blend the two. Yes. So that I don't feel like shit the next day. But I feel nice the night before. That is really good. It's really good. And it's taken me a long time to get here, guys.

Just saying thank you so much. And also, I can remove myself from social media when it's appropriate to. And that is the biggest one, guys. That's a new adult skill. I'm hearing self-control. Yeah. Hearing boundaries. I like to think so in some places.

Yeah. Sarah, what's your, how do you feel like a growing up? Or do you feel like it's not real? You don't get there. No. God, that's really worrying. I can't drink properly. I can't boil an egg.

My husband's got thousands of pairs of shoes. We went on a TV show where, like, you both like, dob each other. in for like something that you do. And I took a picture of his shoes. I had to get a wardrobe maker because there wasn't enough room at the bottom of the wardroves for how many trainers he's got. There's so many shoes.

It's basically like bookshelves, but so the floor to ceiling built so he can triple stack his trainers. And I'd said beforehand, you know, he shops for shoes all the time. He's really obsessed with shoe shopping. He buys shoes all the time. He doesn't need any more shoes.

And these are only the shoes that are in England. He has another whole other lot and his parents' house in Australia. And the audience were like, yeah, yeah, we know what lots of shoes are. And then they gasped when they saw them. It's a Meldon Marcos levels of trainers. Yeah. Yeah.

Same size. Can you capitalize on this? He's the size that you have to get like specially made. Thank you. No hopeful in soul. No. No, I don't want these stupid trainers. I also don't mind yet.

I just think I'm failing at adulthood now. I didn't realize these were all things. I love that there's a heavily pregnant woman going, I think I'm failing at adulthood. But it is very odd becoming someone's mom. So I've got one already. I don't know, this is all the mistake. And I mean someone's mum

and not identifying with being a mother and still not identifying with adulthood and it all feeling like, you know, character work. My son's 16 and it freaks me out that I'm his mother. But that probably makes you a better parent, she says, hopefully. I don't know. Like I have to go, oh, here's me being a parent

because he came home from, because his dad lives down the road at his dad's house the night before and then the next day he walks in at half past four and I said why are you in your school uniform because it was summer holidays and he went because I started school today

and I went oh right and then he goes Casco Sandy nice to meet you we met at Queen Charlotte's Hospital I was like oh don't take the pierce but I've got a lot on you don't always remember but gossiping, I'm so grown up now that I know some incredible gossip.

Don't tell Sarah. She looks at it. I know I'm not an adult. That I don't tell. Is that what I've told everyone? I'll tell you afterwards. And I will tell everyone. She will tell everyone.

That is sort of a guarantee. If you want someone to know something, this is the mouth. Yeah. Tell me and say it's a secret. Yeah. My mum's the same. I think it's an Essex thing personally. Do you?

Yeah, I just don't. I think Essex language for don't tell anyone, subtext is obviously tell everyone. Just before you say it, you go, I shouldn't say anything. But has it ever got you into trouble? Have people ever said, oh my God, I can't be able to tell me. I'm still waiting in comedy

for what happened at school, which is being taken to the tennis courts and punched in the face. Because I wasn't supposed to tell anyone, and I was definitely in the wrong. They're waiting until you have the baby. Do you trust her with your secret? I am careful.

And I, because, because we know, and it's love, it's like, so if it's something that I think, like if someone's told me something, I wouldn't, I'd be like, oh, hang on. And she'll know, she'll say, don't tell me. See, I get really sad because this Edinburgh Fringe, I found out some seismic things that I thought was incredible gossip. And then I rang my comedian friend back in London and she went, yeah, everyone knows that. Oh, I hate that. I hate that. I'm just, I just don't.

I've done that text someone say, did you hear? And they were like, everyone knows that. Oh, well, I didn't. We should start wrapping up, even though this is such a brilliant conversation. No, no, just for a good time and weird time. And now everyone's all they're just thinking is tell us the gossip. No. Just tell us the gossip.

It's such a little... Just chat to Sarah after we should tell you. Just such a little teases. We normally end the episode on Sarah's goodbye line from the book. Sarah normally chooses it, and this time it feels fair that she's chosen. If I was to die with my tampon in, will they take it out before they bury me? Thank you so much for joining us in the Weirdoes Book Club. I'm Sarah Pasco, Emma Jane Unsworth and Shappi Corsandy.

I have been carried out. Thank you so much for listening. This episode was recorded live at 21 Soho in London. We were joined by author Emma Jane Unsworth, whose amazing books are all available to buy now. You can find her on Instagram at M. Jane Unsworth. Shappie's latest book, Scatterbrain, about her life with ADHD, is available to buy now.

And she is a live event at Foyles, where she'll be in conversation with comedian Izzy Saty on the 27th of September. You can find her on social. media at Shapi Corsandi. Next week's book is Freshwater by Aquakey Amaze and we will be joined by comedian Sophie Duker. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you.