Sara & Cariad's Weirdos Book Club - What We've Been Reading

Episode Date: May 29, 2025

Sara and Cariad are back for series three with even more weird and wonderful books!They're kicking off the series with this special episode to discuss what they've been reading in the break.You can find out about all the books they're going to be discussing this series on Instagram @saraandcariadsweirdosbookclubAnd remember! You don't even have to read the book to be in the book club!Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you! Recorded and edited by Naomi Parnell for Plosive.Artwork by Welcome Studio.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Sarah Pasco. And I'm Carriead Lloyd. And we're weird about books. We love to read. We read too much. We talk too much. About the too much that we've read. Which is why we created The Weirdo's Book Club.

A space for the lonely outsider to feel accepted and appreciated. Each week we're joined by amazing comedian guests and writer guests to discuss some wonderfully and crucially weird books, writing, reading and just generally being a weirdo. You don't even need to have read the books to join in. It will be a really interesting, wide-ranging conversation. And maybe you'll want to read the book afterwards. We will share all the upcoming books we're going to be discussing on our Instagram, Sarah and Carriads, Weirdo's Book Club. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you.

Welcome to us. Here we are. Welcome to us. Sarah and Carriad. Welcome back into the studio. Me and you. Carriad Lloyd. Sarah Pascoe. This is a brand new series of Sarah and Carriad's Widow's Book Club. We're going to talk about some books that we've read. And listen, the thing we want you to realize, you don't have to read the books. Especially these, which is what we read in our time off. Yeah. I haven't read the ones that you have read. You haven't read the rest. I read.

You can still have a great conversation. Yeah, we're rebranding this series. If you know anyone who doesn't want to listen to this podcast and they're like, I don't read books or I haven't read that book or I'm waiting until I've read the book. Still listen, please. Yeah, still listen, please. If you want more of this, basically, you've got to up the listening guys.

Ears means ads. Tell your friends. Tell your book friends. Yeah. Pop it on while you're asleep. Yeah, just kick on a loop. Press repeat. You don't have to have read the book.

Don't put headphones in on the bus. Listen out loud. The whole bus can listen out loud. That's what the buses are for, is to share your interests. Special episode alert. Special episode, just us. Just a pile of books. Pile of books.

It'll be discussed. Well, Sarah, we've had a break. Yeah. Where did you go? Australia. What were you doing? Working. Wow, that's the most concise answers like that ever.

I work elsewhere. I've never been able to answer anything that concise in my life. Really? Well, let me ask you. Where have you been? In England. Oh, like a quiz. And what have you been doing?

All sorts of things. Writing, looking after people, other stuff, improvising. Yeah. Ostentatious are on tour? Constatious are on tour. Kids book came out. My picture book came out. Where did she go?

There was a podcast and press. But come on, you want a panel show in Australia. You were more than one panel show. Yeah, I did a few. I was working out there. I was on tour. Working. It sounds like you went for a conference.

That's why I am a businessman. On data analysis. That's what I do. Is that what you do? I talk to people about how they can streamline their companies. we've been on a break is my point yeah so i went to australian but when we break we're working oh yeah yeah yeah but i mean no i went break from the recording i just don't want people to think that i was like on a beach in australia sarah i love that your worst night was that people thought you were

resting you shouldn't look at that oh yes i've come to some conclusions about my relationship with work over the break oh have you yeah only just yeah because of the line in hacks because i told you That's why I don't need therapy. I just need to watch programs about comedians. Yeah, that would do it. Written by comedians. Yeah, that was it. I meant we had a break from recording.

We did. No one thinks that you weren't working. But we had a break and that means we weren't like reading for the podcast. So me and you went free range. Oh, crazy. And we went a bit off-paced. We could read what we liked. Yeah, yeah.

And we didn't have to read things. Spontaneously. Just looking at that towering to read pile. Yeah. Do you want to start with books that with both read or come on, just start with your open door. Because you get your open door. You went banging on about it.

You did text me several times because originally we were both going to read it. So I subscribe to a subset by Rebecca McKay, M-A-K-K-A-I. She is doing this thing on her subject where she's trying to read the world. So she's trying to read books from different countries, particularly feminist books. And that's why I first heard about this book

called The Open Door by Latifah Al-Zayat, translated by Marilyn Booth. This copy is because it's in English, which is like one of really a famous Egyptian feminist novels. I mentioned it on another episode. for eagle-eyed listeners. Eagle-eared? Yeah.

I'm really glad I read it. Like if you're a reader, I would say, give it a go, because I am glad I read it. It was very interesting. It was written, it's set in February 1946. And so, you know, it is dated, and it's just a bit of an odd. You found the beginning hard to get into. Oh, so it's published in 1960.

There we go. And it's also, it was made into a film as well. It's a very famous Egyptian film as well, which I think. So in Egypt is like very well-known. classic acclaimed novel landmark in feminist anti-clonious writing it's one of those books are doing lots of different things

so there's this kind of like this feminism thing but there's also this like uprising against the English and then there's a war happening and a romance story so it kind of it goes all over the place and does it have separate character narratives are these different characters no it's all happened to one woman it's one woman who we sort of starts quite young

and I mean it was really interesting because she it's that thing of like it's written in 1960 and Egypt is just in such a different place in the 40s like she's basically like being she will be forced to marry someone who she doesn't want to and that's kind of her parents and her even saying she won't do that is very shocking very difficult

her brother even deciding that he wants to fight against the English to fight for Egypt Egyptian nationalism is like a huge shame of from the parents so it's really interesting that way of like you think where we where this country was in the sort of 40s 50s and where Egypt was and reminding, I think it's good to remind

of like how Western-centric the idea of feminism often is of like, oh, in the 50s, it was housewives. And then they broke free. And it's like, that isn't the case for lots of other countries. The one thing that happens is every man that meets her. So basically, it's quite funny.

Like, a man will turn up and will look at her. And then they'll both be like, I am in love. I am in love. I cannot. I can't think. I can breathe. I can't breathe.

And she like, I can't breathe. And she's like, I can't breathe. And they have to be like, not near each other because I don't have to touch each other, look at each other. But this happens quite a lot. And I got to the point where I was like, this is mad. Does it describe what she looks like?

She's very beautiful. She's very beautiful. But I spoke to someone who lived in Egypt at a book event and I said, have you read this? This is really bizarre. She said, oh, yes, I lives in Egypt. This is what happens. People fall in love with each other. Like, this is a cultural thing.

Like, they see, they love you. And I was like, oh, okay, because I was like, what? Maybe it's a hot country thing. That's why we don't have it in England. Yeah, Italy has it. Yeah. The Mediterranean, a lot of those countries are passionate in this way. And she lived a lot in the Middle East, this person I spoke to.

And she was like, oh, yes, yes, yes. That's not surprising to me that book is. People are always falling in love me immediately. Does it not happen to you, Carrie? Yeah, yeah. Or it's like in Egypt. So then that made me feel a bit like, again, I'm coming from this like Western century point of view.

I was like, oh, because for me, that was unbelievable that basically like, first it's her brother's friend and then like she meets like a teacher. But she has, do you know, I wish you could read it because she has like a very, each relationship is kind of an example of a bad male relationship. Sounds a lot like Tim Amanda, sounds a lot like Dream Count in some ways. Yeah, it's a bit like that

but much more sort of old fashioned but yeah, she gets into a coercive control relationship with her teacher and it takes her ages for her to even realise and all her friends are like he's horrible

and she's basically about to marry him and then like this is a metaphor for colonialism yeah and the revolutionary boy turns up who's like, remember me? I'm hot and you love me

and she's like oh yeah, I forgot about you. So I did enjoy it. Look, if you're someone that wants to read more literature that's not Western. Especially, yeah, in terms of reading around the world. Yeah.

It went all like, like the beginning was so different to the end. The end becomes like a really exciting war novel. Like the end is like, oh my God, fucking out what's happening. But the beginning is not. It's just like child romance. I don't know, like that book that they did a film of, one of the pages is just blank. And it was like the first book to be like funny and satirical and Steve Coogan did a film about it.

Oh, no. Older, older, older, old, old. So you couldn't do a film about it. Steve Coon did a film. We went to see it in it. Thomas. Oh. Oh, with the nose.

The guy with the nose. Yeah. Thomas Shandy? Yeah. Tristram Shandy. The first novel. Yeah. The first novel ever written.

Tristram Shandy. It's a bit like Tristram Shandy. Oh, you should read it. It's just like Tristram Shandy. Exactly. But no one's going to say, oh, I can't wait to sit down and read Tristan Shandy. I want to see Steve Kugan's version of the open door. Oh, he'd be very good as a revolutionary boyfriend.

It's like Tristram Shandy right. No one's going to say, oh, I can't wait to get home and read Tristram Shand. But you are, you do appreciate that you've read it. Oh no, absolutely. So that's what this is. But this is where reading can sometimes be lonely is because it will just be you and someone who works in a book shop who's read it. Exactly.

So if anyone's read The Open Door wants to talk to me about it, please message the Instagram because I would like more opinion. Because I feel like I didn't have enough. That's what we should start as a club on our Weirdo's Book Club patron. It should be lonely readers. If you've read a book and you don't think anyone else in the world has read it, let's find you someone else who's read it. Yeah.

Because I felt like I needed people to talk to them about. I took it to a book event and I kept getting it. I said to David Nichols, Have you read this? He was like, no. I was like, how'd be someone that's read it? And he's halfway through Trist from Shandy.

Here we go. It's one that we both read, which was Breakdown by Kathy Sweeney. Ready? Yeah. That's what we'll think about Breakdown. Kathy Sweeney. Kathy Sweeney.

Fucking Kathy Sweeney. Good work, girl. Smashed it. Smashed it. Out the park. Absolutely smashed it. You know what? At the front door,

in a car, in a cottage, at the park. It's so... To the shopping centre. It's so good. Oh my God. It's so beautiful. It's so heartbreaking. My friend Megan, my other book friend, said she thinks it's like a more real Irish version of All Fords by Miranda July.

Definitely. If you've read All Fors and you think what could follow that, Kathy Sweeney has written a book that can follow that. Or if you think All Fours have this like, where did you got that money? This artist's life, this is like, what if a real woman in a real life wanted to do what Miranda July did, but wasn't a performance artist. We did her short story collection with Jesse Cave in the Edinburgh Live episode, like, So we talked about her before, which is why we're not doing a full episode of breakdown. And actually, it might be a quite boring episode we did because we just keep going, clapping it, saying how great it was.

I would say it's aspirational, it made me want to leave my family. That's how good it is. And I actually really like my kids. But yeah. It was so good. She's such a brilliant writer. She's such a good writer. And it's so lovely to spend time in it.

And it was very, very, like, it's just so well-paced in terms of how we're dealing with her in real time. And we're going backwards to, you know, pivotal, moment. and some core memories and things like that. It's very brutally honest as well in a way that, but also in a way that's not simmering anger of... But it's not like trauma writing. It's not like, oh, this is so horror. It's like it's just so fucking real.

Yeah. Yeah. About motherhood. Yeah, mothering. And being a wife. And the sort of banality of that. And why it's okay to go. And the imprisonment of it.

And especially if you have creative urges, creative expression, you don't have space, time to pursue how that can. just still into anger got too real just for a second she doesn't need therapy businesses

streamrun I streamrun the businesses that is who I am and that is what I do I put on my three-piece suit I put on my kitchen heels I go in and I say I don't need anything else

to blue sky this I streamer by the business no one asks me for porridge no one throws food at me I stream my business who saw the apprentice last night the next one I read

was drive your plow over the bones of the dead by Olga. Not sure how you say this. Toh-Tog. It's run the Nobel Prize. It's the big one. It's a big one. If they don't invite us to Booker, let's go to the Nobel Prize.

Or Pulitzer. Peabodies. And it was one of those ones that was everywhere for a bit. It's a Fitzgeraldo edition. We love Fitzgeraldo. And she has also written one called the Ampusium, Emposium, which is about a sort of horacelle in a health bar, which I actually bought for my husband.

I didn't realize it was the same author, which also had loads of people saying was amazing. Did he read it? He has begun it, but he's much slower reader than me. I always think that your husband is a better reader for me. Yeah, way better. Because he's slow. If you ask him about book, he can tell you he took his time, he read it properly.

He's no skim. Yeah. Do you know what? He's monogamous and whist lag. That's all going for him to find out this way. About books. Yeah. Yeah.

So it did very well. It was one of those ones that like lots of celebrities were photographed reading. So I feel like who book people were photograph reading this. It was one of those. It got about.

That's how I first heard of it. People were like... But not celebrities, not Harry Styles. Who was... Who was Snapchat? Not Kim Kardashian. No, it was like... Sandra Bullock.

Who was reading it? Your references. Sandra Bullock. Kim Kardashian Harry Styles. I want to find out on. Oh, Jewelippa did it on her podcast. Yeah, yeah. Fair enough, yeah.

I was like, and it's Fitzcardo. Trust Fitzgerald. So I was like, oh, okay, yeah, this would be good. There's never been a Duff Fitzcarraldo. Well, I didn't enjoy this very much. But I think you're in a weird reading place. I'm in a weird reading, but not. Do you know what, like the beginning, look, I folded out so much because I was like, oh my God, the writing.

She's an amazing writer. Yeah. Amazing. But I felt like I got a bit annoyed with the plot. Again, please message me if you read this book because like something happens. Yeah. That I was like, oh, really? Right.

Okay. And it kind of, you know, when something annoys you and then makes the rest of the book, what's the word like and deactivates the rest of the book I would love you to read it it's brilliant writing and the translation is brilliant as well and it's all about like there's all this William Blake

poetry running through and so maybe I will learn maybe I'll read it and we will do an episode on it then Booking your reread for 12 months time shall we talk about the safe keep which I haven't read yes oh you haven't read it no I haven't read

oh okay I thought you maybe started I haven't even got it so the safe keep by Here, let me butcher a name. Yale, Van der Wuden. The safe keep is quite small. It was on the booker, I believe, shortlist or the long list. One of the other.

And it was on the women's prize, I feel. Long list? It's definitely on the short list of the women's prize. It was on the booker Longlist, maybe. Yeah. I think I was given it at the event. That's where I got it from. So, oh my gosh.

Yeah, you loved it, didn't you? Well, at the beginning I was embarrassed because it was too sexual. Oh, okay. And you know I'm approved. Pruddy, prudy. I'm a prudy prude. Karen and Sarah pruddy prudes. I was all embarrassed on the plane and I stopped reading it.

Oh, was it that sexy? Yeah. Yeah. And kind of big Swiss levels? Yeah, two women. Yeah. Can you believe it? Two of them.

Well, they put it, I said. But that's why I mean, like, big Swiss levels of like, kind of blushing. And very similar in terms of like arousal not really being together. Big Swiss is more consummated. This is more not consummated. A woman. got another woman in her house and it's her brother's girlfriend. And so actually it's a bit like the swooning in the open door as in like can't breathe,

closing doors, repressed sexuality. And it was beautifully written, but I felt a bit like, oh, okay, this is what this book is. And oh, my God, it is not what that book is. And so I... Is it a reverse of this one where you're like, oh, this book is this? I continued reading it and then was like, and I spoke to my, I'm, Kirsten, my stepmom when I was in Australia. She had stopped reading it also. and and I said oh you have to read the end

you have to read as in like it's not like the ending what the actual book is about is a very very very sad aspect of history and also sort of lived history people are alive who this happened to I don't know if I should say that much more about it but it's something that I've never heard this story told and it's such an amazing way to tell this story

I'd like to read a book I enjoy oh it's really brilliant and I say it's really brilliant it's crushingly sad. Okay. And crushingly sad in the way where it's crushingly sad because not only is the story sad,

that's what happened to people. Right, I see. Yeah. The added layer of reality. The added layer we can't go. And then all the aliens aren't real. Thank goodness I didn't really happen. Oh, I did.

Oh, okay. Yeah, you were texting me saying you like that one. Yeah. It was astonishingly good. And that's a little one. You'd love it for your tiny hands and bags. Yes, please. Well, that's what, I'll tell you,

that's why this one was also very easy. Good light Fitzcaraldo. Drive your plow. Do you drive your plow. The Bones of the Dead. Let me chuck another second tiny one in then. Because I was travelling lots on aeroplane, short aeroplane rides. August blue by Deborah Levy.

Got it on my tibby red pile? Tiny little book. Yeah. Lovely. Just beautiful to read. Just great. We love her so much. Yeah.

Just eat it up. Do you remember we just, that episode we did with Catherine May. We just said how much we loved her so much. We probably can't ever do an episode on her ever again. No, we just say. Because it would just be clapping. Yeah. What would we do?

Maybe a Mexican wave. If we bumped into Kathy Sweeney and Deborah Levy at the same time. I would do. I do if I saw any really famous person, pretend I didn't see them. Really famous. Not they're really famous? We really love them. Big, big to me.

Yeah. The only polite thing you can do is blank them. I sat next to Victoria Beckham in a restaurant the other day, remember? Blanked her. Oh yeah, you just blanked her. Well, I also didn't see her. I didn't find out until afterwards. But if I had seen her, I also would have blanked her.

Once, where were we when we saw Mark Owen? Do you remember? No. Yeah. I've never seen Mark Owen. No, but you refused to acknowledge it. We were with Vanessa. Well, I blanked it from my brain.

Yeah. And Vanessa was like, it's Mark Owen. And you were like, don't say anything, don't turn around. I was in the horseley. Yes, it was. Well, he was there? You were like, I did I blame to it. You were like, it's not happening.

I forgot on this memory. And maybe he was like, don't you want to just turn around and see him? And you were like, no, no, I can't. No, it's not happening. Also, I felt like the atoms of my universe would disintegrate. Yeah, which is fair. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. So August blue, I will add that because that's in the bottom. Wonderful. And also it's wonderful because also it's very European. There's lots of Paris in there. Lovely. There's some Hidra. Some what?

The Greek island. Oh, sorry, I didn't know what you said. Hidra. Hidra. Hidra. But then Dolly Alderson said Hidra? Oh, I would have said hydra. Was we on Hidra at the same time before we met each other?

Do you know this story? I didn't know that story. She once was on a ferry with me and Steen before we knew who each other were. And she sort of Savan-A-Rath. How did she remember that it was you? Does she know who you were? She knew who I was. And weirdly, we're on the same ferry back.

Oh, wow. And he had helped two older women with their bags who did not want help. Which is a scene. She actually runs up to old ladies. He didn't steal their suitcases. And it really scares me. And also, you cannot live in London and do that kind of thing. But this was on Hitler.

And after which she said, I knew a bickering. I was like, yeah, that sounds right. Early relationship, young love. Young love. You know those first few months. Can you stop helping old ladies? Stop it. They don't need your help.

Harden yourself to the world. Some people can't carry their luggage. Speaking of Dolly. Oh, yes, yes. We should do. Lovely link. Lovely link. So we wanted Dolly for the podcast.

Dolly is incredibly busy. we would wait too long really to read good material. Well, I went on a writer's retreat to do some work and I were supposed to be reading Caledonian Road. I was not enjoying it. And Rebecca Shiller. She used to live on Caledonian Road. Maybe that's why, too close.

Yeah, too close. And Rebecca Shiller, the amazing woman who runs mothers who write writing retreats. If you're a mum who wants to have a quiet place to write, when you go to the retreat, there's books everywhere and she leaves very specific books around the place that she thinks you would like. Yeah.

Amazing. And good material was in the living room by Dolly Orton and I picked it up because I thought, oh, I just want to read something that's just not like, yeah, just enjoy it. And I read it and like, my goodness, day and a half. Yeah, absolutely. Just, come, go, quag, come, come, yeah.

Yeah, delightful. Feels real, characters feel real, really funny. I think for us as well, there's an added element of, you know, Edinburgh Festival, comedians writing about their life. I found it a bit stressful about the comedian. Like, yeah, I did find it stressful. But I thought she did a very good job of writing for the comedian's point of view. from that boy, the boy. The boy.

Yes, the boy. I would just say to anyone who does read it and think, oh, male comedians sound like they're datable. No. That's what's not realistic about it. That was my one thing. It would be a slippery step. Don't go up to Edinburgh thinking I'll snare myself a nice man. You're absolutely right.

Yeah, I think she'd made it a little bit too accessible. Yeah. Like she made him seem like, hey, he's all right. She made him seem like a nice woman. Yeah. Yeah. Sort of romantic, heartbroken, eating his feelings. That might be not what they're doing. Not the case in reality.

of you go to Edinburgh and you find someone. But I found it, I really enjoyed it. Some things I've known men to do in Edinburgh, run out of toilet paper and wipe their ass with a towel. Just putting that out, there is some balance. It's the kind of thing that's not in the book. Because, you know, the other man who did that, who I hate, Henry Miller.

Henry Miller, yeah. Run out of toilet paper, wiped his ass with a piece of bread. Bread, yeah. Put it in a book, wrote about it. Disgusting. Yeah. But I like that Henry Miller exists, though, because sometimes that's your red flag.

It's when a man says he likes Henry Miller. Dolly's got her readability, her intelligence, her humour, she should be. I saw she did an interview with Helen Fielding the day. She should be Helen Fielding's age. It's unfair that she's a decade younger than me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, and I would say you haven't read it yet. And it was good because I was in a slump with a book that was quite intellectual and demanding

lot of me. And it really was like so nice to go and spend time there. It's really nice. And you do really care what happens. And everyone has been heartbroken and everyone has tried to be better. So everyone has lived in a shit place after they've moved out of their relationship. There's lots of really universal things. Yes, it was lovely.

The Lamb by Lucy Rose. People were talking about it. I mean, I don't even eat meat, let alone. Yeah, it's hard for you. So it's a mum who sort of gets her energy. I guess it's a bit of vampiric. Yeah. And they live in a scary place.

But actually what I didn't like is people are such dirty teeth. Oh. A very yellow teeth. All of the characters. They don't wash them. Actually, there's no cleaning products whatsoever. And they just destroy the whole bodies. They basically ensnare people, trick them into coming to their house and eat them.

And the daughter really likes eating the people. And then a lover comes along for her mother. I did I like it? It's a very extreme form of literature. It's gothic. It was spooky. It was very, very well written. Yeah.

This is the hardcore punk level of it. Yes, yes. Yeah. This is just frequencies. This is just be be be. Yeah. Synth. Yeah.

So Synth is more tuneful than is it. Some people just listen to frequencies now. That's the thing. Hang on a minute. Yeah. This is, you know someone who does this, Joe Morpurgo. Joe Morpago has always listened to these. This is something called noise or sound.

In Edinburgh, in Edinburgh we were both at the table writing and I said, eventually I said, can you hear that? It's like the fridge is buzzing and he went, oh, sorry, and he pressed pause because he was like, I'm listening to music. No, but it was called noise or sound or something. Yeah. But it was just, but people do listen to that. Yeah, that's it.

And all mossy and grassy and horrible because there's a child. It's a child's point of view and it's a child character at school. They've eaten her dad. Oh, God. Yeah. It's a very, very visceral way to talk about the fact that your parent might choose a lover over you. Yeah, yeah. Okay, let's talk about something really nice.

I read to my daughter Ballet Shoes by Noel Street Fields. Is that the one you saw the play of as well? They recently did a play adaptation at National Theatre. This is my copy that I had when I was seven. And I read this to my child. Yeah. And I read this, when I was seven, I read this in a, I got a cardboard box. As people who listen to me on podcast, no, I used to sleep in a cardboard box for a bit in my room.

I read this entire book in a day. Such an 80s cover. Can I hold it? You can hold it. Yeah, this is my copy. And then my daughter is extraordinary. So this is a kid's book. My daughter is extraordinary picky.

She only likes reading graphic novels. And trying to get her to read anything is always like, if ever I pick up anything, she's like, no, no. And I said, let's just read one chapter. and it's such good storytelling and it's really like it was written in 1936 and like there's lesbian doctors in there who are not mentioned as lesbians

but there's two women sharing a boarding together there's loads of stuff that's very progressive and especially if you have read any books to kids you'll know like any old books normally half the sentences

you're having to go don't say that that's really offensive and this is a book I would say there's a couple of fatphobic things in there but they're very light they're very light I mean but David William

is writing books that are fat phobic now. Exactly. And it's about three girls that an explorer rescues from different situations. So one he rescues from like a ship sinking. And then one he rescues from like another upper mountain. And he brings them all home. And he has a great niece and he's like, we're going to raise these girls. And he then goes off exploring.

So the great niece and like, typical man. Typical man. The great needs. Let's do some drastic labor. Oh, I found something more exciting. Yeah. We're going to talk about a wife to him in a second. Raises them.

And but she also, to be fair. has like a cook and a nanny and all this stuff. But this is exactly what George Orwell did to his wife. But the three girls don't have, they give them names, Posey, Petrova and... Penny it says on the back. Pauline, Pauline, Pauline, Posey and Petrova. And they basically realise that they can choose their own surname. And they explore its houses full of fossils.

So they call themselves the fossils. And they decide to make a pact, which is they are going to change history because their surname did not come from their grandfathers. So they say every year in their birthdays, like we we get to do what we want because our surname we chose. That's amazing. And then, but they go to like a theatre school. One wants to be a dancer.

One wants to be an actor. The other one wants to be a car mechanic. And it's just honestly, it sounds great. It's so good. Yeah. It's so good. It's so beautiful. It's like, and there's a lot of like genuine like how to be a theatre kid in 1930.

It's like they have to go to the council to get like their passes and stuff and pass exams. And it's about there's a great storyline. Pauline is the actress. She gets a part. but she gets goes to her head and she gets a little bit doesn't like doing

her costume away doesn't like doing what she's told why are saying it to me like it's a moral because the understudy is put on instead to teach her a lesson or for one show

and I was saying to my daughter as it happened I went they're sending the understudy on and my daughter was like why is it bad and I was like it's very bad it's very bad

because everyone could realize that the understudy is better than you given a chance and she was like oh it's just if you have it if you read it when you were younger

and you haven't read it ages. My God, reread it. I've never even heard of it. Oh. But that's because I would never have read a book that posh. I'd have been like Pauline and Posey. Yeah, it is a bit middle class, definitely, sort of 1930s. But that's the book I've most enjoyed reading. Well, to go back to one that we have both read. Yeah. But I only read in our break, in Australia, the Poisonwood Bible by Barber Kingsolver. So talking of sort of young women. I haven't read that book. I read that my 20s. I loved that book. Well, I think it stands up very well because I was worried about it. Just the fact that it's white people in Africa.

Yeah. It's an American missionary family, Baptist father, taking his children to what at the time was called the Congo, which is all dealt with in the book. And it's, I mean, everything Barbara Kingsolver writes is so incredible. But while really, really, really hardcore and sad things happen in this book, I found it easier than Demon Copperhead. Interesting.

I haven't read Demon Copperhead yet. It's on the to be read pile. I read Poisonable Bible in my 20s when Barbara Kingserval was considered a kind of chicklet, kind of like, not romance, but like kind of that kind of historical thing that like... She's readable. Yeah, exactly. And my mum had read it and said, oh, it's really good to read it. And it was like one of those like recommended in like Homes and Gardens magazine or good housekeeping. And then it was so interested to me when Demon Copperhead started doing so well, I was like, oh, that's that author that like, when I used to say to people, have you read the poison in my Bible? They would be so snobby.

Yeah. At a university they would have been. Oh yeah. It was like a bit embarrassing that I'd read this book. I loved. I have something very embarrassing that happened to me. Yes. Right.

Based on this is a long time ago. I was at one of Russell Tovey's birthday parties and I was talking to Emerald Fennell. Oh yes. And we talked about this book and I hadn't read it. But I said I had read it. And then she said it was set in Africa and I didn't know that. And it was like a real like. someone realizing you're a drunk idiot of party,

pretending you'd read something. I was getting it confused with them. I was basically faking it as if she'd written two very identical books. How did you get out of that? Did you just style it? I didn't. Never saw her again. I wonder where she is.

Wonder what she's up to? I can't watch Saltburn in case there's a character based on me who's not saying they've read the Poisonwood Bible. I haven't seen Saltburn either. I'll watch it like, you know. There's one character that comes drunk about. I read the Poisonwood Bible. Yeah, yeah, the one with the experiments, right?

Yeah. Set in Miss Massachusetts? Yeah. No. No. But you enjoyed it. I know. I loved it.

I really, really loved it so much. You made me want to reread it. It's really, really brilliant. And I actually think it's really brilliant about, there's this amazing thing that the mum says, because right at the beginning it talks about Africa. And I wouldn't use the word problematic, but the nature of white men going to Africa.

And, you know, the enslavement of a country, the, and that she says, but what is a wife, if not a hostage? because basically it's asking about a wife's complicity and something where she didn't choose to go there but yet she was there and she's part of the problem I see yeah

I thought I mean look I can be wrong I'm a white woman talking about oh I think the white woman wrote a really good book about a white woman in Africa so look but I guess she's writing from the white people that went there

she lived there a third of the way in I was like I don't know how she knows so much yeah and and she lived there and I was like okay then that actually explains She was there as a child. Because there's things like, do you remember the scene where ants come in and eat everything,

including all the livestock and the animals? And the mum chooses one of the daughters, not the others. There's certain things you're like, oh my God. It's actually terrifying in terms of like, you know, the snake, the snakes, the insects, and the poverty, the fact that they've got no food, they've got nothing. I'm just really fighting the urge to be like, yeah, yeah, that bit in the laboratory. Yeah, with the wolf. And you be like, no?

Oh, I've read other books. So, so brilliant. And also, it's really good sometimes to go back to books that aren't new. Shout out to Barbara Kingshill, which is being a fucking great writer. And I was in a bookshop desperate for like a chunky, engulfing, read. Yeah, good read. To have that thing. Because, you know, because we're living in a, no, one-bedroom apartment,

after I come back from a show, it's not like I can do anything. It is just like put a torch on and read. Speaking of great, equally great writers. Yes. We talked about her before. We talked about her a lot. We went to win to the play. We went to see the play the years.

But I read the book that Sarah brought for me, A Woman's Story by Annie. Oh, no. Annie. Oh, no. Another Nobel winner. Another Nobel winner. Another Fitzcarraldo.

We read a man's place, and this is a woman's story. A man's place is about her dad. A woman's story is about her mum. I didn't realize how griefy it was. I had no idea. Because the other book is not really grievey. It's sort of like...

I thought it was really grievey. Well, compared to this, this is much more like her mum has just died and she's kind of going back over her thoughts of her life. Whereas man's pace, I felt like she went back to childhood so much. Like she really sort of stayed there. Like what made him that man? Whereas this is much more the relationship between a mother and daughter. I mean, look, what can we say? It's fucking great.

Everything the woman writes is fucking amazing. After being really grumpy with lots of books, I was like, this is just every sentence is fucking perfection. I didn't even fold pages down because why bother? I fold the entire book down. It's just, oh, and the way she captures that mother-daughter thing and the difficulties of her relationship with her mum, and then her mum being such a lovely grandmother to her children. Oh, yeah, I'm trying to write sound up with this.

Parent 2.0, who they could have been. Who they could have been. Having to watch it. Without the stress of having to, like, be in charge. I want to be happy. That's different way of looking at Sarah. Different humans. Different humans.

Yeah. And again, it's super light. It's so light. I went away at Easter and I took a couple of books and I just picked this up and I just read this. And I was like, oh, it's just good. And it's very beautiful about grief and death. Are you interested in those things, Katie? A little bit, not that much.

What are she always going about grief? Google me. And you know. If you're in China, there will be a different search engine. I really like that she talks about like, I can't describe it. Like, the way the body changes and the way her mother's body becomes weaker and what it means to care for a mother after that mother has not always mothered you in the same way.

But she did teach you how to mother. And so as that woman becomes sick, as her mom becomes sicker, she is mothering in the way that her mother did and understanding that that is a value, even though it's not always what you needed as a teenager, there is a value to, I hold your hand, I mop your brow, and you did this for me. And it's very, yeah, it's just really beautiful. And have you seen it's Sarah Perry's written a book about her father-in-law's death and a very, very quick death? Oh, no.

I don't think it's out yet, but about the physical caring for a body that's dying. I think he got a diagnosis and was dead within 11 days. So it was short and tense. But, I mean, I bet she's written such an incredible book about it. Yeah, she's great. Yeah. In terms of writers, I think, are really, really readable. Yep.

I read Alian Moriati. That's because I always read a Leanne Moriati when I'm in Australia. So she wrote things like... Who is she? She's very, very famous Australian writer. She wrote things like Big Little Lies. Oh, yes. Okay, yes.

I feel like... Oh, Leanne. I thought you said Ilan. I was like, who's Ilan? Leanne. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She wrote another one that Nicole Kidman, seven perfect strangers.

She wrote. But I think I've read all of her books and some of them twice, because especially for travel reading. Apple's Never Four. Apple's Never Four. Read that. Here one moment. Yeah, here one moment, read that.

Nine Perfect Strangers. Yeah, Big Little Lies. Yeah, Big Little Lies. her, like, May one. Read them all. Here one moment I read.

And actually, I was looking in the airport for a book to read. I was looking at the bestsellers and a woman said to me, a young woman said to me, oh, that one is really good. I just read it about this one.

My husband's secret? Read it. Last anniversary? Yep. What Alice forgot? Oh, no, I haven't. Oh, that's a very early one. What's Sarah forgot to read.

Truly Madly Guilty? Yeah, read that one. And then there's an illusion is fun. She's written a lot. Yeah. But she's brilliant. And here one moment. about a woman who stands up on a plane and she starts telling everyone how they're going to die,

what age they're going to live to? And she just goes down the plane and says it to everyone and that's about what happens afterwards. Wow. So it's just like great, gripping, great, reading. Is she actually, does she actually know what's going on with this woman? Some stuff starts happening at the beginning where the fortune teller stuff comes true. And so then it's all like publicised and it's all in social media and everyone's been told something. Wow.

It's really brilliant. That sounds great. Great, really readable. And that's probably one like, if you are going on holiday. I think because we have been reading some heavy shit. Hmm. I think our brains are crying out for like, just give me a book. They're just one page turn.

Sometimes it's like, it's not that they don't deal with heavy stuff. It's if they deal with it in a certain way. There's lightness of scenes or you just feel like, oh, I'm in the universe where things are okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So there's nice. So there's not, but it's not necessarily a grief.

Yeah, yeah. So that one. And then the actually, the other one I read, did you ever read the Claire Lynch? one about motherhood, smaller motherhoods. No, I didn't read that. Well, I read it when I was pregnant and it's so, and I loved it so much because it's about IVF and losing IVF pregnancies and having issues in pregnancy because I think she gave birth to very, very, very small babies that weren't going to survive.

And it's, oh my God. And then I got Brona to read it. As I say, is she Irish? Yes. These Irish women who are so good at writing. Yeah, called Claire. So many of them. That book is so brilliant.

itself, by the way. And if you need to cry about pregnancy or fail pregnancy, unsuccessful pregnancies, losing a pregnancy, sometimes you do. And I say that is definitely a book to do that with where your feelings will be so cared for while someone shares theirs. It's just so brilliant. But so I've sent a copy. You know what, Megan was recommending this. I've sent a copy of a family matter. And so this is a novel rather than nonfiction. And so I left it for a little while and I shouldn't have done because I should just trust that she's a brilliant writing about what she writes. But this is a fiction, but based on what island and places like that used to do, and then some places as well still do, where a woman becomes, well, she falls in love with a woman and leaves her husband and isn't allowed to see her children.

Oh, God. And so it's based on factual experiences. Again, lived experience. People are still alive. Yeah. And I guess part of it's also how that affects the children if your mum seems like she chose. Yeah. Anyway, it's a brilliant book.

Oh, I want to read that. Really brilliant. You know, full of heart and sympathy and sadness and a love story actually as well. Yeah. And being a parent, what it would take or what it costs to be forced. And just... Oh, that sounds great. Yeah, really good, really good one.

The one we've both read before you do your last one is Wifedom. Are we going to do an episode on this? I don't know. It's not the book I expected it to be. Watch this space, guys. There's loads and loads and loads of stuff to say. There's so much to say. But there's a massive thing for I said.

Because I used to be a tour guide on the bus, as did you. And I once went on a walking tour, George Orba walking tour. And I was on the bus guys, I was taught that he worked at the ministry in Bloomsbury. And when I did the walking tour, they said he worked there. And it was inspiration for 1984. She worked there. Yeah. So it's so bizarre.

It's just an example of something where. We just attributed to all... It's just too complicated to add four words to a sentence, which is his wife went there. He was very familiar with the building. She worked there through the war. Anyway, but it wasn't the book I was expecting. I didn't realize that so much it was novelised.

Why don't we say, read it now, guys. We'll do an episode on it. Yeah, get read now. It's a chunky read, but it's a great read. And then a woman on the plane asked me, she said, do you enjoy, like, is that good? It's been on my to read pile. And I'd only, at the beginning I found so...

I think when Ana Fender talked more about herself and the reason that she was told to the story in her. Because no, she's such a famous... Starzieland is the non-fiction book I recommend to anyone. Will you find out that even those people have struggled with having children

and getting their work done? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just makes you burst into tears. Just makes you burst into tears. So I was loving the beginning so much and then, anyway, let's talk about it. Well, yeah, I loved it. Okay, so I want to talk about...

She's a guest of the show, a real friend of ours, both. Catherine May, the electricity of every living thing. She came on our show to talk about Deborah Levy. I have interviewed her on Griefcast when she had wintering coming out. I've also done lots of events with her about the books that came after wintering called Insharmament. She also gave us a candle. She gave me a candle.

Shout out to the Winterfold Candle Company that I am now addicted to. I thought she made it. No. It's this amazing Kent company. I thought it was her company. I thought it was her making candles. The candles are so good. I can't stop buying them.

and it's got a problematic. And they sent me some because I... That's nice. I was stalking them so much. Anyway, this was, she's written lots of books. This was the first one that kind of, I would say, her breakthrough book. Can I hold the show? Yeah.

So this is about, really about her discovering she was autistic. Oh. But also about nature. She was trying to walk the southwest coastal path, very famous walking path, which Raina Wynne also walked on her walk, I think, the salt path. And she was also, this one, Catherine is also walking around Kent. And she's trying to do all this walking before she's 40. She's trying to do all these famous walks.

And she's also having a breakdown and sort of realizing that perhaps she's autistic. And it was written a while ago, I think maybe 2015. So it really is the start of people talking about neurodiversity. Very early on when it really still was considered quite niche and quite unusual. She hears a programme on the radio about how people are redefining autism, moving away from that idea of like the sort of savant asperger. Yeah. rain man idea

and she's this autistic woman was talking on the radio about oh no someone's talking about what autistic people are like and she's driving along and she's like yes yes yes like oh fuck what so it's it's not about just that but it is again talking about women who can just you just want to spend time with

like every one of Kaffin's books I've really enjoyed you feel like you're sitting down to talk to a really intelligent friend and she's so calm in her writing and she has a really not slow pace but like thoughtful pace and I'm someone who is a Russia and I go too fast and I feel like she does it in such a kind way

if she's like hey I'm just going to tell you something right now and it's this interesting that you don't mind that we're just going we're walking this like I just feel like she slows my people with ADHD need people with autism yes it is it is that's where you get the classic you know the joke of autism ADHD couples Mr Darcy Lizzie Bennett

there's many from literature of like that's what it is or you get to autistic people very different to ADHD people of very different situations but there was a classic autism ADHD assistant codependent relationship but yeah she it's just so readable yeah and so she's so it's one of those things where it's like if I told you oh this book is about walking in autism I don't know some people would be like oh right no thanks um but just the way she writes and it's also about motherhood she's dealing with the fact that she how her neurodiversity has affected her wanting a baby even near her, like being in a sling, finding that very difficult, wanting to do all

these walks by herself, the guilt of that, but knowing she needs it. And I just, I just love Catherine's writing. And I think it's just one of those books again that you, I looked forward to picking it up. I read it quickly. Did you message her while you were reading it? Because it's obviously a very special treat to be reading something you love and know the person. I felt a bit like overwhelmed, like I had to stop myself, otherwise I would be messaging every two pages. I like that song too. I've been there. You never said that that. Yeah, and I feel very lucky that I would say Catherine is now a friend.

And so it was so nice to read earlier work. And also see how much our writing had changed and evolved. And again, if you have any interest in neurodiversity or you have anybody you know who is, you know, thinking about becoming neurodiverse. Or once their business line streamed. I would really recommend it. I recommend it to a lot of people recently or parents

who are having conversations with me about neurodiversity when they find out that I have ADHD who are like, oh, oh, how did you and why did you, what? And I'm like, read this because I think it's a really lovely gateway into why someone might want that diagnosis for themselves. So I just, yeah, it was, she's a fucking great writer

and her substack is great, like, she's just a great writer. Yeah, I love, I love, I love what she says. Another round of applause. I love a round of applause, for Gasson May. Kathy May, everybody. So this is the book that was my, this is, the universe gave me this book. So there's an amazing bookshop in Melbourne and you have to go up three flights of stairs to get there.

Oh, already, I'm not going. There's a list. She can wait for the lift. Okay, fine, fine. And I've not been to Melbourne for nearly 10 years. Oh, wow. So to be back in the city and then have this fear, is this bookshop going to even exist anymore?

Because Melbourne, like everyone's been affected by COVID and lots of lovely businesses and restaurants. Your favourite bookshops. And it's an independent bookshop that's very, very curated. And actually the last time I went in there nine years ago, the woman selling books, the bookseller, she recommended three books as in like, oh, if you like these ones, can I just suggest these? And they were brilliant. And they were Australian writers I didn't know about, etc. So it's just exquisite. And then I went on a Sunday

and it was shut. So I'm seeing through a glass door. Oh, you message me. Yeah. So there's a book. There's a title of the book is, any person is the only self. And my stand-up show is about my loss of self since having children and where the self is and thinking about it. It's funny than that please come. I was like, oh, literally. She also streamlines your business as you're writing. Yeah. So actually it just happened automatically.

Oh, yeah. Great, great, great. So, and I was like, this is the book that I've come to this book shop to buy that book, which I've never heard. I've never seen, but that is exactly what I've spent time with. And then it's a book about a woman reading books. You went back immediately on Monday, the next day. You didn't say that.

My children were very loud. in there and I had to get in and out very quickly. But I bought this book and it's a book of essays and she's reading books that she's never read during COVID. Wow. From her to read pile. So can you imagine a book more perfect than me? And she's talking about things that I don't know about like Virginia Woolf's diaries. Oh my God, it's so brilliant and there's so much examination. And she's written a book on memory as well, an essay book that I'm going to also read.

I started following her on Instagram, but she didn't follow me back. What's her name? I don't think you said her name. Elisa Gabbott. It's called Any Person Is the Only Self. I tell you what the experience I had with this was like when we read Claire Dederer, Love and Trouble. And then we went, oh my God, a writer writing for me. And she talks in it about reading Proust and how she couldn't believe that anyone hadn't recommended Proust to her. And she'd just written a book about time and memory. And she's like, why did no one go, oh no, not one should read this. You have to read this, which is how I feel about

so many things. Anyway, and just lots of really, really interesting thoughts on the self and literature and responses to COVID, actually, because I do think that is something we're all processed. Listen. Look what's happening at the world right? This is my theory. Look what happened in the world right now. Everyone's got PTSD. Trump's got PTSD. I honestly think we're all... I can't believe you jump from this female literature to Donald Trump and you feel sorry for him. No, I don't feel sorry for him, but I'm like, everybody is reacting to COVID. Like, I'm five years. There's a seismic reaction going on. If you look at what's happening in the world, people doing crazy things, it's PTSD, it's grief, it's trauma from COVID. Yeah. That's what I think. The rules changed and then you pretended they didn't. They changed back. And it was your whole world, nothing made sense. How do you think it's affecting Trump though, Karen? very hard.

That's not good. I just think everybody, from Trump to ourselves, okay, that's the spectrum of humanity. It's a big spectrum. Is still dealing with COVID? Yes, yes, I think so. And also, it's a grief and you can see, like, I just think.

I should say, August Blue is also during COVID. Oh, interesting. And I think it's really, I find it really helpful. Yeah. I think we need more. To pin it down historically as a time. Because it's, it's grief. And so it's five years ago, someone's like,

oh, that's not a big deal. It didn't matter. And it's like, no, no, something seismic happened five years go, your brain is only now just allowing all that stuff to float to the surface. We've just been like walking in a haze. And now everyone's like, don't, don't think about it. It's gone. It was the past. It's like, no, no, it's in our muscles. It's in our memory. Also, we still get it. It's still out there. People are still being suffering. Literally still there. You've got one more in yes, I can see. Oh, no, I was just going to mention a couple of books that I just read.

I mean, I don't have a lot to say about them. I was, like, Eliza would have been my last one. I read Killer Potential by Hannah Diet. That's one that we were sent and it had a really, really good covering letter of like this is the thriller. Oh. And it's pretty great in terms of page turnery. Okay. And again, women on women, if you like that kind of thing. Women on women, killer potential is really great.

That's a really good if you see it in the bookshop at the airport and you want something exciting and thrilling. And then Hello Beautiful, which was recommended to us by a listener. Yes. Because I had such a reaction to Blue Sisters. It was a sister's book that they said was much, much better. Yeah. And I still had a little bit of the...

Which you then came to inclusion. Maybe you don't like reading about sisters. Or just maybe I've got such a particular kind of family that anything, yeah, I find the sister relationships difficult. Or difficult to think are realistic. They must be for other people. Other people keep writing about them. They must be realistic to other people. I think I have that with dads.

Yeah. Like when people write about dads at normal, I think that's not normal. And then I've actually said, yours was mental. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I see. I was raised by wolves. So this looks confusing.

But Hello Beautiful. It's a very readable book. I follow Tom Lake, so it's difficult. Yeah. Oh, can I just shout out? You listened. I listened to Tom Lake, thanks to people telling us that Mel Street did the audiobook. And I had a free audible credit.

And so I downloaded it and I thought, well, come on. I read the book. Oh, Merrill. Mel. I just, I can't. For about three weeks, I was only speaking as Mel Street to my husband. Of course, when I found the cherry trees alone, I sat and I knew that view was not.

nothing left. I just, yeah, that was my bad, Mowryl Street, I've lost it because I haven't been listening. It was so good. Yeah. And it was so good. Great. Just so great. Do you know what? There's so many good books in the world. There's so many good books in the world. Yeah. Thanks, listeners. We've had some good, we've had some good. Lots of engagement. And it is good. And also, most of the time we're talking about things is so much about where we are rather than the quality of writing. Yeah. And I feel like I'm at the point now when I'm reading so much that that like even if I don't like like like like like a book in verse of comments it's not that I

think it's bad at all. It's just like the quality of what I've been loving. Yeah. It's so you know sometimes so highly like oh this was this was great. It just didn't like change my world with the way that I'm obsessed with Tom Lake. Yeah. But not everything can be Tom Lake. No. And no it should have be. Otherwise

you wouldn't appreciate Tom Lake. When the Tom Lake comes along. And should have be is a new word that we all can use. Very excited about the upcoming series and remember you don't have to have read the books. You don't have to read the book. We like reading with you. You don't have to have read the book.

Thank you for reading with us. No, that's what needs to change. Thank you for listening. We like telling you what we've read. That's our new sign.