Sara & Cariad's Weirdos Book Club - Where Did She Go? by Cariad Lloyd with Nadia Shireen

Episode Date: July 17, 2025

This week's book guest is Where Did She Go? by Cariad Lloyd.Sara and Cariad are joined by award-winning children's book illustrator and author Nadia Shireen.In this episode they discuss career changes, illustrators, child development and Daniel Bedingfield.Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you!Where Did She Go? by Cariad Lloyd is available to buy here.Tickets for Sara's tour show I Am A Strange Gloop are available to buy from sarapascoe.co.ukSara’s debut novel Weirdo is published by Faber & Faber and is available to buy here.Cariad’s book You Are Not Alone is published by Bloomsbury and is available to buy here.Follow Sara & Cariad’s Weirdos Book Club on Instagram @saraandcariadsweirdosbookclub and Twitter @weirdosbookclub Recorded by Ben Williams and edited by Naomi Parnell for Plosive.Artwork by Welcome Studio.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Sarah Pasco. And I'm Carriead Lloyd. And we're weird about books. We love to read. We read too much. We talk too much. About the too much that we've read. Which is why we created the Weirdo's Book Club. A space for the lonely outsider to feel accepted and appreciated. Each week we're joined by amazing comedian guests and writer guests to discuss some wonderfully and crucially weird books, writing, reading and just generally being a weirdo. You don't even need to have read the books to join in. It will be a really interesting, wide-ranging conversation and maybe you'll want to read the book afterwards. We will share all the upcoming. books we're going to be discussing on our Instagram, Sarah and Carriad's Weirdo's Book Club. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you. This week's book guest is Where Did She Go? By Carriad Lloyd. What's it about? It's a little girl asking questions about the death of her grandmother. What qualifies it for the Weirdo's book club? Well, there's not enough debt in kids' picture books, in my opinion. In this episode, we discuss career changes, illustrators, child development, and Daniel Beddingfield. And joining us this week is Nadia Shireen. Nardis Shireen is an award-winning children's book illustrator and author.

You may know her for her middle grade series, Grimwood. Oh, you may have heard Adam Buckson reading the audio of that as well, or her Billy Picture Book series or her brilliant Barbara throws a wobbler, bumble bear. She is hilarious and brilliant and we were very excited to have her on today. Welcome to the podcast, Carriead Lloyd and Nadia Shireen. I don't feel like a proper guest. You are a proper guest today. We're talking picture books. We are talking pictures with amazing Nadia Shreen. Thank you so much for being here. You're very welcome. I'm really excited to be here. I'm so excited to have you here. I'm such a massive fan of your picture books. Like a huge, huge embarrassing fan of all of them. Good. Keep talking. Bumble bear.

Billy and the series. Also Barbara throws a wobbler, which is a classic of our time. Absolutely love it. My children, I've got a picture to show you when we're finished, but both of my children climbed onto my lap and I was like this isn't for you mommy's reading for the podcast mommy's reading for work but they so loved and this actually I think is such a good demonstration of why the words and the pictures together but my three-year-old instantly was like what is that about the pink blob and was so that is Barbara's Wobbler and he but he absolutely understood what a wobbler was and the idea of seeing it was so compulsive to him the first time it's such a brilliant picture book and it is about Barbara who's a cat who has a wobbler.

And then Barbara realizes she's in control of the wobbler. Yeah. And she can say to the wobbler, I've had enough of you. And then obviously goes about her day. But yeah, the first time I read that to my daughter and that page where, you know, she speaks to her own wobbler. Right. Me and my daughter were like, fuck. I know.

You can speak to your own mental breakdown. Me and my editor were like that too. Yeah. Yeah. But what's so fantastically important, not just for children. though that age because I actually think for all of us emotional regulation is hard

but especially for children who know that once their my son calls it having a meltdown and goes I promise I won't have a meltdown today at nursery so they know this thing of how sometimes being in a bad mood makes more bad things happen you then do a thing that you then get told off for

so at the beginning that's the issue is that more bad things are going to happen because of how Barbara feels so then the idea that you can you can police that a little bit. What an amazing important life lesson. Because someone tries to give her an ice cream and she doesn't even want to share her ice cream.

And it's like, yeah, being aware that your emotional dysregulation will make you miss out. Yeah. I mean, look, it's something I am still learning every day. It's certainly not like, hey kids, I've got this nailed. And I think that's how I am with all my picture books, hopefully. I feel, though I am apparently an adult, like emotion that I feel really tuned into just being a kid. And I feel like that's my gang. So I do feel like they're like, I think that's why I make

a connection with child readers is that I really think, well, I'm just one of you. And I think with Barbara's Rose Wobbler, it was interesting because we were, when I say we, I'm referring to my editor, Andrea, because I work really closely with her. And with this book in particular, like you say, we're kind of showing the reader that Barbara's just having a normal day that can be related to. So socks. and, you know, stepping on the cracks, a bad pee on your lunch plate, and then go into the park. And so that's relatable. But then we have to do this shift, like into her mind. And there was a point when we were looking at the book quite near the end where I just ran her and went, have I gone mad?

Is this book mad? Is anyone going to get, and I was gripped with fear that no one was going to get this. But that was, I'm glad she taught me down off the ledge because she's like, no, no, no. we can't underestimate kids. We can't underestimate their emotional curiosity. But I think that's what you do so well in your books and what I've tried to do with this one is allow a big topic to live in a picture book.

And it's funny because it's like there are lots of emotional picture books, but sometimes they're dealt with very seriously, which is hard, you know, obviously there's topics that are serious that you're trying to educate a child with. But I think what you do so well with Barbara Thore's, is, you know, like this idea of most of dysregulation being something that adults

experience as well. And that's what I was trying with. Where did she go? Of like, well, grief isn't just for kids. Guess what? It's for everyone. So you're trying to distill a topic. And I definitely relate to that writing something.

And I was like, I remember reading a, they sent me the proof. And I read it and thought, oh, my God, I've written a book about death for kids. What have I done? What have I done? A little bit. Because I want to ask both of you about how you. about how you got, how it became picture books. But I'll start with you, Carrie out.

Okay. Because you're jumping to getting a proof. Yes. Where is the beginning of the life of where did she go? Well, I, obviously, I'm not as an established picture book writer as Nadia. So this was my first one. But for me, it came from, I did the grief cast podcast, to people don't know. I did a podcast about death and grief for seven years.

And I got sent every grief book going, like just blue books. If you want to find a grief book, they are blue and they have pictures of the sea on. That is what grief books look like. And I got sent a lot of nice kids' books. There are some really lovely ones out there. But I just felt like there wasn't one that was very... There were lots of ones with animals. There were lots of ones with rabbits or islands or like the kind of slightly magical.

And I was like, oh, I really like one that's quite blunt, quite clear, that's not trying to hide in anything. It's not trying to... Carriad doesn't equip a... I don't, yeah. Should you just say what it is, they're dead. Yeah, exactly. I found that quite frustrating because when I talk to my children about death, I'm quite honest with my language and I say they are dead.

They're not alive anymore. And I found that much easier. All the research on helping kids understand bereavement is to use the right words, use the right language, don't hold back. That's the best thing for them. So when I found these picture books, I was like, oh, all of it is a bit like, just, like they were just a little bit worried that they might upset someone.

And so when, yeah, I had a meeting with my lovely publishers, Hachette, Children's, I basically had been writing this in my head for seven years of like, well, if I had a picture book, what I would do. And it sat on my phone half written. So then they said, oh, maybe a picture book about grief. I was like, yep, I can send it to you now. I thought about so long, this is what's missing. It's a straightforward book about grief.

So it was to extend the conversation. You've already had it with adults. You were writing your middle grade books. Yeah. And this is to take it to a younger age group. And what the book really does show is that if you use words like, oh, they're, oh, sorry, you lost somebody. They're sleeping. Yeah.

They're confusing that is to a young child. Yeah. Yeah. They're watching over you. Well, I don't know. None of these things are very nice. No, they're creepy. David Badeel wrote in his book about his faith.

He lost a grandparent. he was told she's gone for asleep and he now has insomnia ever since he's six years old. Because he thought one day he would close his eyes and never wake up again and that's from six.

Yeah, it's a really common thing especially I would say older generations because I think we are getting better of saying something. So one of my mum's friends, her dad died when she was a kid and they said he's just gone away. And so every single time

they went to any high street or town she was obsessively looking because she was like, well they're not looking. It could be here. could be here. And then there's other stories of like they flush a goldfish then dies and you flash a goldfish down and then you say, oh, the goldfish is dead? And you're thinking, oh God, is that what they did with my parent or grandpa? They didn't tell me. It's a very different rejection for a child if they think a parent is alive somewhere and not coming

to see them. It's huge. It's a decision. Yeah. It's a decision and it's... The damage of it is what I mean. It's like it's actually really scarily huge. And if you speak to, there's some amazing charities now. So child bereavement UK is one one of my favorite for helping children get their heads around this stuff. And they basically all say, all the research shows, use the right words. If you are okay with them seeing a body, it's really helpful because they see a body and it's dead. And they go, oh, okay, that person is not coming back. I'm not needing to look for them.

And just using the right language just means, because kids, if you give them foggy answers, will make up the middle. That's the trouble. Exactly. They will find their own answer where they're like, I know what they're not telling me. Yes. They're telling me they live in clouds. And if it's a sunny day, it means they're not here.

Like, they'll just make it up. So that's what I was trying to do is a really simple, clear book. And then I was very lucky that the amazing illustrator, Tom Percival, who does a lot of books on emotion, agreed to illustrate it. Because you don't, you, well, Nadia does her own pictures. But if you're someone who can't draw, which is me, then you have to sort of pitch it to illustrators. And they can choose, obviously, they're very successful.

They can choose to be like, no, I didn't really like what you. wrote. Wow. I don't want to do it. Yeah. So you're having to like go to the arty people and be like, did you like my words? And thank, fuck. Tom was like, yeah, I really liked it. Well, I loved it. It's a great book. And I loved it for that reason, really. It's directness. Because I don't understand, like you say, if your child or a child is bereaved, they're upset already. You're not going to add to it by, they're already upset. Help them navigate. Why? Maybe help them sit in it. And that's really hard to do. It's really difficult.

You don't have to wait till someone is bereaved to talk about death. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I was thinking this is such a lovely story in that it's your classic adventure. What's happened? How do we find out? It's a character who asks lots of questions. And it's fun, you know, to go through that with her.

And I thought, oh God, how important to have one of the stories that you've got on the shelf for bedtime being sort of someone's, sort of already got that language and understanding before it happens with somebody. That's what I hoped that if you needed it, great. If it's like you've had a grandparent die and you're like, we really need a book to talk about this, it's there for you. But equally if you haven't, it's just a book about death, which answers some of the questions. And the answers are, we don't know.

Yes. And I would say that as well, there are actually loads of religious books. So if you have a faith, there's a book for you that will say, they're going to heaven, this is what happened. They're being reincarnated. There's loads of lovely children. books are very clear. But if you are, as I think a lot of people are these days, secular, or you don't have a very trendy, not to have any faith now. Yeah, if you have something,

you, God is dead. Yeah. It's funny. It's funny. I've had kids come around. And if my daughter would say are like, oh, my mom's dad is dead, they will say, oh, that's okay, he's in heaven. Because they have been told very clearly, you don't need to worry about death. It's fine. You just go somewhere else. And if you're growing up and a household where you're saying to kids, well, we don't believe that. They're like, oh, so what happens when you die? you're like, well, we don't know. And I think you have to be honest about that. You have to kind of...

Well, they can smell it. They can smell it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They know that you're fibbing. So Nadia, let's talk about you. You said children are your gang. So when did you decide you wanted to write picture books? Actually, kind of late, because I didn't really know it was a job that I could do.

Yeah, yeah. If someone had said to me when I was nine, you can do this. I'd be like, yep, sign me up. But I genuinely just didn't, it was a different world. I just didn't think. Did you go to art college? No, did a law degree. Oh my God, amazing.

Yeah, I'm Pakistani. So, like, we don't do art degrees in the 90s. Anyway, nowadays, I'm sure it's different. But no, then, I mean, the truth is, it was like, well, we moved to this country so you could get a good education. So you'll be a doctor or a lawyer or whatever. And I remember saying to my mum, because I've always been in like a quiet, rebel. I'm a very good girl, but I quietly am rebellious, but like in a very slow way, like it takes me decades. So I remember saying to her, I don't really want to do a law degree. And I

remember her saying, if you do a law degree, you can then do whatever you want, but just get that under your belt. And I think that it's quite a big thing to get under your belt. Right. It's not like a worker year in Tesco. It's like a law degree. Like I say to my kids, you can have an ice cream, but you just have to eat three pieces of pasta. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I wish that it had just been you can eat three pieces of pasta you do what you want. I had to do the Lord's great. So I did.

And then I went to London to work in magazines, which is not being a lawyer. I think they maybe hoped that I would just quietly over the degree go, yeah, I like this. But actually a week in, I was like, nope, not for me. So I moved down to London and I lived there for, I don't know why I'm talking, I mean, yes, just moved down to London and worked in magazine journalism. Again, I just moved from one kind of dying industry to another.

But I had a really good time, worked on smash hits, which was fun. Amazing! Smats hits! Oh my God. The stickers. We love Smashes. Right. But that was actually one of my jobs was checking for lyrics.

No. Yeah. What a great job. How did you get that job? Did they need to go with a law degree? We didn't know. That would have been what we were supposed to do. We wouldn't have got English degrees.

I know, right? I was a sub-editor. So I'd do the spellings and, like, you know, just help. help put the magazine together and the picture captions also comedy gold yeah so it was a great actually it was a great playground for me to kind of it was a great playground for me to get to drips with layouts yeah yeah yeah I realize now I didn't really realize at the time but I was like ooh um so that was fun and then I freelanced around mags for ages and I guess I was reaching the grand old age of 30 and thinking hmm I feel unfulfilled because I'm doing like I'm subediting Carol Vorderman's

beach body ready diet again. And I'd always love drawing, but I just never took it seriously. And I started to do evening classes at like city lit. You know, there's like, everyone's day. That's why I did my first improv class. No way. Yeah, yeah. They're amazing.

They're like magical places. So I did a few. I did like illustration, children's book illustration, you know, this kind of thing. And one of the tutors actually said, oh, you've got something here. Have you thought about doing like a longer course in illustration? At that point, kids' books were not. massively in my head. And I was like, well, maybe. And I looked around and there was an MA in Cambridge. But it was, I was just looking for illustration. And this was one that was every Wednesday in Cambridge. It was children's book illustration, but I thought, oh, well, I'll still learn stuff. And I applied and madly they said yes, which I still think now is nuts. I think back then it was quite a new course. So they were saying yes to whoever really. Now is like this. You're so successful and you're being so dismissive of yourself.

Rather than like, you're good at what you do and they could see that. Yeah, they're like, you're really brilliant. No, I mean, it's because I think certainly my path there was weird and was, and there was luck involved. I'm not saying there hasn't mean a lot of hard work as well, but there has also been these just moments of luck. And that was a moment of luck that I got let on that course because I'm not sure I would be now. Because I was like, I have no art degree. Art background. Yeah.

Right, I see. And everyone else had done an art degree. So they knew what to do with paint. And I turned up and I was like, I don't really know what I'm doing. But do you want Caravorderman's Beach Body Ready? Because I can tell you all about that. And because I was working,

I wasn't really keeping up with the work. And my tutor, Martin Salisbury, who's very respected in picture but circles as a top dog, he would happily tell you, I think, that I was going to fail. And it was over two and a half years. And so I just wasn't really keeping up. with the work and didn't know what I was doing. And someone on the course said, there was a show at the end

of the course and someone said, no idea, look, you don't want to fail. I said, I just don't want to fail. That's all up. So she was like, just focus on this show. That's what you need to do. So I took like two months off sub-editing work. I was a freelancer. I took two months off. My partner at the time was like, I'll cover the bills. You do this. And I made like a picture book. I made a dummy picture book called Good Little Wolf. Oh yeah. And then on the night of the show, some publishers came to the show and went, this is great.

We love this book. And I had like an email. I know. I know that book. That book is like one of my, it's one of my favorite picture books. It's like, so literally you made it and then it got published. I couldn't believe it. Like the next morning there was an email in my inbox going, hi, nice to meet you last night.

So it was mind melting. But I love it because you took risks. You pushed yourself. That's a gamble, taking two months off your work when your free level. Yeah, it was. It was. And that was my ego mainly, because I was like, I cannot fail because of my kind of quite high expectation levels I have in my brain. But it also sounded like, you needed some boundaries on what to focus on.

I did. And when someone was like, just do the book, you were like, okay. Yeah, yeah. And then this amazing picture book came out, which is. Yeah. I genuinely, I remember when it actually came out and everyone was like, you must be so happy. And I was in shock because it had happened really quickly. And I was happy and proud and all of the rest of it

But my main emotion was shocked Like has this happened? But you know Then it's slowly you know over the years Then I had another book deal And then they just kind of kept going And here we are 12, no I'm not sure how many years later 13, 12 years later

So the other day my nanny took my youngest son To your exhibition at the London Story Centre Yeah yeah Yeah Discover Story Centre in Stratford I was being sent her amazing, amazing place. I was being sent all of these pictures of this amazing day he was having. And then I saw your name and I was like, she's coming on my podcast.

Oh, I'm so pleased. Yeah, that was. That must have been just to walk around in your achievement. That was actually a really, that was about, so it was about, it opened this time last year. So July, 24, it opened. And I think it's carrying on actually for a few extra months this year, which I'm really delighted about. That was a moment because I'm a very compact. I'm a very compartmentalise in person.

I don't know if it's how I grew up. I grew up in kind of, as I say, like an Asian household, but I was in a very white area. I grew up in Shropshire. Oh, wow. All my friends were white. Everything. So my life has always been really compartmentalized

deliberately and also not. Just that's how it's been. A coping mechanism, I imagine. Survival, to be honest, was a lot of it. And, you know, I've carried some of that through into adulthood. and I walked around that place and it was packed and my mum was there, my brother was there, my friends were there, my media friends were there,

my school friends were there, my son was there, my ex-husband was there. And it was just, it was amazing. It was amazing. It really felt like, oh, this is me. Especially because it's your illustrations and because you do the pictures as well. And like the exhibition at this,

which I took my kids to last year, and they loved. I'm so pleased. Like it must be like walking into your book. brain because there's a bit from every picture book and your amazing middle grade series grimwood which is one of my favorite i recommend that to everyone because it's so funny it's such a funny set of books so it must have felt like yeah literally like this is my brain this is all the characters i've created from nancy and head to bumble bear to billy like they were all in one room there was

some concern from people they were like is this what you live with i'm pretty much what a great base of I'm sorry, you can ride around on a bee, there's dinosaurs with laser eyes, and there's a tree where you can sleep in. Who doesn't want to live there? It is, I was thinking, like, I think I find it easier to live in that world than the real world. I would be happy in that exhibition centre than the real world. It felt like a very comfortable place. Well, you are, you know, you're a children's book author as well. And, like, you know, I think we all have that chip in us where we are, we would like to, we could happily live in this fantasy land.

Yeah. We've all got that in common. And certainly the other, my peers who I chat to, we're like, we're all weird, aren't me? It's a good weird. Were you a big reader as a child? Yeah. I was. I was really shy, really quiet child.

But I was a sponge and I used to just, also I was the youngest. I mean, I've only got one older brother, but I had cousins and all the rest of it. And I was the youngest. So it's a good place to be because you can just watch everyone and listen and hear stuff and watch stuff you're not meant to because it's not age appropriate. But I was a huge reader. My parents were big readers. And my brother was a reader. I just think if there's a house full of books, there you go.

Funnily enough, we didn't have big, we didn't have picture books at home. There was no big picture book culture. Same in my house. Really? Yeah. I don't think either of my, well, I don't know. It's fair to say about my dad, but not very visual. You know, everyone has these different learning styles.

We now understand. Yeah. We just never looked at stuff. Well, you didn't watch telly. You didn't have a telly, did you? We just had one. We just weren't allowed to watch the programs with adverts. Right.

So we just didn't watch it. Right. Okay. My parents were quite happy to let me watch all the telly, which I'm grateful for. So like a lot of top cap. But we just didn't have picture books. I wonder if it was a bit cultural in my family in terms of it's just not.

There just wasn't loads back then. We definitely did have, I got with lots of picture books, but there was like your John Birmingham's. And I guess you're Shirley Hughes. But there was, There wasn't as many as now. I mean, now there is a book for literally every single thing you can think of.

There is a topic. There is a picture book for it. But I definitely hate, yeah, we had a few picture books. It just wasn't such a big deal, was it? It was like you read them if you wanted to. And then when you could read a book without pictures, you did. A proper book, which people still say, guess my go. But, oh, Mr. Men, was big into the Mr. Men.

Stories make literally no sense. Oh, they're insane Mr. Men. Ariad, I wanted to ask you, because Nadia's, explains, like feeling quite shocked. Yeah. You know, when your book existed and it was obviously a very fast process. Yeah. What was the process like for you?

As you say, if you've been thinking about it for seven years, it should exist. Well, it's a bit weird, yeah, because I had my middle grade come out. Christmas time. The Christmas time. So Lydia Marmalade and the Christmas wish, as it's now known. Which I love. Oh, thank you, Maddie. I mean so much.

And so I think I found both, I haven't actually seen this one in a shop yet. I haven't actually been into a shop because it only came out in May. So I just haven't been in the shop to go and see it. But the first time I saw the Christmas middle grade book, sorry, middle grade is like 8 to 11. Because I use these turns to other people. They're like, what are you saying? What does that mean?

It just means like slightly older readers. But the first time I saw that in award stones, yeah, I found just a very alien experience. Because I think if you are a child that read books and treasured them, to see your book up against other books that you know will be treasured or books that you think are equally brilliant, it's just a very, yeah, pleasing but odd experience to be like, well, how did I get there? I'm not sure I've still quite accepted it.

Genuinely, I don't think I have. It's sort of like you're a bit out of, I'm a bit out of body sometimes when I look at it. And I go, I know, Nadia Shereen did that, which is some other person. I think especially if it lives in your head or if you're very personally does live in your head. Yes. And that's where it's nice. Ooh, all the things happening. And then I think to see the physical nature of it, it's in your head.

And then other people might say, oh, I've read that. You think, did you? How? How did you? I think there are moments actually in creativity that I think it's impossible to actually absorb that it's part of the real world. And what you always have is this, I'm trying to think of the right word for it. It's not discombobulation. But it's a weird kind of dysphoria where you can't. So I get it when I say my own name into a microphone.

So just before I go on stage, I have to say, welcome to this. And as I'm saying, I'm like, what are you doing? I have a thing of, I exist. And then I go on and you just have to cope with it. Yeah. But occasionally you go, why did I pick this for a job? But don't say that out loud. Yeah.

Because how can that be real? I think you've got the heart. I think you've got, I cannot believe your job actually because I've had to do a bit, I've had to do, I do events now. Have you done? I've done a few. I mean, I actually prefer events because they're like... But you're a performer as well. Yeah, I feel comfortable just being a dickhead on stage.

But like, yeah, but obviously you come from drawing background. Amazing. The fact you're both performers and you're comfortable on stage, it's my... Like, if someone says to me you need to be on stage and stand up in front of people, I'm like, whoa, that's not what I signed up for. Not to sound childish, but like... I feel bad for some writers. Because that's the thing we live in a world now where you kind of have to go out and do this. And some writers you meet at book events and you're like, you weren't meant for the real world.

You were meant for a desk and a view of a lake. Yes. And that's quite clear that they're very much like. And I always think it's such a shame. There are all these out-of-work actors. And I think about it for politicians as well. What a shame it that they have to speak to us when some of them are probably brains, leave them in an office, talk out of the economy. Why don't I get an out-of-work actor to play you at the event?

Yeah, that's a really good idea. So I don't, when I do Grimwood events, my books were slightly older readers. They're loads of, like, nutty characters with all sorts of different voices. And Adam Buxton does the audio books. They're brilliant audio books. I mean, he does, I have to say, a sterling job on them. I don't read from Grim, when I do my events. Because it's like, well, I can't do that.

I'm not a performer. Also, that's very unfair to be like, oh, would you like, Adam Bxton's recorded it? I wouldn't want to follow Adam Buckson recording. No, I actually play little bits of his voice in the event. dude because I'm like, well, he's done the voice and I can't do that. I'm like, I have these moments where I'm like, you know, you're like, I'm an author and then I'm like, I'm just, I'm just a mum and then I'm just or whatever and you have all these identity crises or I do anything on stage. So I get around it by not reading. So I don't perform in that way. I go on

and I'm kind of very interactive with the kids. And that's how I've got around it. You know how to talk to kids and you know how to talk to them about what you do and the magic that you are trying to create for them. I go into it as their mate. Yeah. So I'm like, hello. I'm not a teacher. We've got some time off school now. Let's just have some fun. And that's how I've got round it. But I'm quite jealous of you too. I'm always jealous of people who can draw because I think an event for kids being able to be like, hey, do you want to see if I'm draw? I was going to ask you, would you do a course of illustrating? Do you know what? I genuinely wish. There are so many things that I'm like almost good at. Like, I have lots of skills where you go, if I had a bit of time, I could be fucking good at that.

And I'm telling you now, drawing is absolutely the one thing I cannot do. Like, I'm not visual in the same way. I love, I fucking love picture books because I can't do them. I can't draw anything. I can't draw anything. I'm so bad at it. I don't understand it hugely. But it's not about with children's illustration, it's not about being a photographic.

No, but mine upset. style. Even my doodles are upsetting. Quentin Blake's drawings aren't incredible until they're distilled down to, they look just like how Quincy and Blake sees a person. I used to take pictures of, my daughter would ask me to draw characters like from Octanauts, and I used to take pictures because they were so disturbing.

Like I draw things that look like, oh God, I want to see that book. But you're unrelaxed and you're clopying and thin. And copying's fine. It's a good way to learn. And you haven't ever done a course. That's interesting to see. I come from a family of artists. Maybe this is you a music.

Like my mum is excellent My brother can draw My uncle is an artist And it's always something that people will go This is how you do this Which made me go Oh I can't My hand is not working

But if you want me to write something I feel so much freer But yeah sure I mean this is where I have to say Everyone can draw Yeah It's just depends You might just enjoy it

You might just enjoy it I don't enjoy it I can imagine you on an illustration course every Wednesday Carrie Let's not let her leave the room Yeah to sign her up Until she signed up

that I am, clearly this is what you project onto your children without realizing. I'm very good when I read them a story. I always say, so this was written by this person, illustrated by this person. So they're getting the hang of like what a book is. You're crediting. Can you tell, like, the bookseller to do that? Yeah, yeah. That's amazing.

Well done. So what I, but the other day, my son said, I think we must have been reading. Maybe it was one of yours, Nadia. And he said, oh, she does both. She's very clever. And I was like, oh, I've obviously made out. Like, if you're just writing it's not actually that impressive to my eyes. The worst.

I obviously say, and Nadia, she did the pictures and the story. Isn't that clever? Isn't that really clever? I tell kids when I see them I write with this hand, my right hand and draw with the left hand at the same time. The laughs vary. Often they just stare at me like, do you? I'm like, no, no, no. Sorry.

But yeah, I think, did you have a favourite picture book growing up? Not really then? Or do you have a favourite one now? No, I did. So I did used to read loads of picture books because my mum. I grew up in a place in the West Midlands called Wellington. Shout out to anyone from the middle of nowhere. And there was a little library there and mum would go every week and drag me along.

And she'd go and get her new latest Dick Francis or whatever and kind of drop-kicked me into the kids' sections. I just sat there happily chomping away, like reading everything. And I remember loving the Mega Mog books by Jan Pekowski. I love those books. Did you see them? What books are they? Mega Mogg. Like a witch.

Oh, yes, yes. And it's really like bright colors with black out like that. I could draw. I could do a mega mark. Well, there you go. One of some of the finest. And do you know what I love? That's what I loved about those books.

Because Jan Pekovsky used felt tip markers for some of those illustrations. And you could kind of see the felt tip mark. And I remember thinking, oh, he's allowed to use felt tips. Yeah. Because I think we weren't allowed to use felt. There was some thing at school where you weren't allowed to use felt tips because you got marks. It ruined things. paper.

Yeah, yeah. And that made it kind of accessible and exciting. So I loved that book. Mega Mog is classic. Super classic. And then there was a book that this is the power of picture books. So if any of your listeners don't look at picture books, maybe they don't have kids.

Honestly, give yourselves the treat of going into a book shop and looking at picture books. They're for everyone. I mean it. And there's a visual treat. There's so much out there. Children don't realize the high art that they are getting. This is it. They are. They are artful. I believe that picture books are a beautiful, really important art form.

Yeah. And we're giving them to our children at this young age and they're introduced to so much and I love it. There's so many facts now if they have a lot of picture books there or read quicker. Children who read quicker, do better at school, have better. Yeah. It's better. Everything. Yeah. You can determine the quality of life from reading. From reading. From early years, literacy into adulthood. Yeah. Yeah. And yet we're still in, unfortunately. this kind of crisis mode where... Yeah, where their kids are reading less than they ever have done compared to other years, obviously, because there's way more distractions or other hobbies, I guess, rather than distractions.

I think also adults aren't reading in front of their kids. Yeah, that's true. Not to parent shame. No, it's a time crisis, isn't it? I mean, both things, having... And I know that the bedtime routine, having just had children recently, sort of what you're told is the best thing to do before bed in terms of, okay, now it's bedtime, we get sleepy, is reading.

but it's a privilege to have time to sit down with your children and read and to read yourself. I mean, come on now. Yeah. Everyone is a privilege to own a book in many households or to be near a library. You know, primary schools, I mean, forgive me if this has been, if I've gone about this, but it is correctly legal. You have to have a library in every prison in this country, as is correct. It is not yet legal. Like, there's no such law around primary schools and libraries.

It has not been enshrined in law that every primary school should have a library. I find that. Shocking. And then it makes a huge discrepancy and, you know, luck of the draw, which school you go to, especially underprivileged areas of the children who won't have access to books. Yeah. And then also their library might be closed down or their library might not be well stocked as well or unloved. No funds for teachers are overstretched.

So who's going to be a librarian? I mean, I see this a lot when I've gone around to different schools and, you know, I'll go to a school where there's like a couple of really passionate teachers, but there isn't, they're not in an area where there can be an affluent PTA who can do fundraising to make a library and then you go to a school a few miles away and there is. Yeah, it's nuts, isn't it? How it can differ between like a few streets in a school. I just think that would be one of the, such a easy, I know it's not easy, but it would be just such a major fix

if we could have a well-stock library and librarian in every primary school. Well, that's why World Book Day is such an amazing thing that happens. And maybe the first time gone to a bookshop, maybe the first time. And that's theirs. Get a book. Get your token and go to a bookshop. Which again, as you said, it is a privilege. It's not possible for everybody.

But yet we have so many statistics now of what it can do. Well, that's it. So the stage that my eldest is at, when we read a story book, a picture book, it is so much about, what do they call it, theory of mind. It's so much, especially the second and third reading. Why are they doing that? Why do they think that? oh that person is sad now or the bear is a bear we have we have a book called bear that he has to is the

last book we read and he won't let us not read it now and he knows it off by heart so and it's so amazing because it's about a bear and he starts right and he's just having a great life he's on a bench reading his book holding his balloon cookie for later and he's in a monologue as how much he loves being a bear and then one by one all these characters coming on they're like can have a bite of your cookie can I read your book oh your balloon and make me really happy and the bear keeps thinking oh no but he keeps saying yes. Because the bear is a parent. The bear is yes.

So it's quite a complex thing about how you know it's right to share. They're being told all the time to share. Yeah, but it's... And it really is hard to share. And then the bear gets really angry and goes, and then everyone runs away and doesn't like the bear anymore. And so my son is just so obsessed with this, because obviously this is a stage in his development.

And it's a bear and a horse and a donkey and a rabbit who are telling him. I know. I think it amazing that books, that picture books do this for children. Yeah. So that's the emotional, psychological advancement that we're dealing with something so complex because of someone's pictures that an adult understood enough to write it in a way that for a child.

They are a bit magic. Yeah, it makes me want to cry because you go, these are complex issues for adults to understand. And what we're doing is saying you as a child deserve an explanation as much as I do. And I'm going to tell you that through story. And I just think for me that you get to a child early enough to say when you're struggling, when this is hard, when you're confused, a story will help you. I'm like, that's the key to surviving this computer game we're in because it's awful.

Also, it is supportive for parents because I don't know to talk to him about that. It's through reading a story that I go, oh, I could never have put this into words for you yet. But yes, you do have to share, and it is really hard. It's really hard. There's an amazing Janet and Alan Orberg book called Starting School, which is one of my favorite one. Obviously, they did Funny Bones, which is another 80s classic. Legendary. And starting school is, again, one of those incredible things that picture books does

that he just follows like eight kids. And all he does is tell you, like, today they start to school. Like, today they found their chairs. And like, today, like, they went to assembly. And this is what assembly is. And then it's like, it goes through the seasons. And it's just by the end of it, like they're saying goodbye to their teacher. And reading that again with a kid being like, I'm just showing you a story.

Like, I'm just letting you in that other people live this life. other people will have your story. It's just, it helped my daughter, especially so much, to be like, this is what school is going to be. And I think you're showing them, again, that mix of visuals and story, which I almost feel sad that we don't have more illustrations in other books. Well, I'm really sad. I don't understand who decided that illustration stops at a certain age.

Because I see it as a triangle. You know, you've got the words, you've got the pictures. And then that third bit, that's what the reader does. Yeah. And that's the magic bit. And that's why I love about picture books in particular. I think they're kind of interactive in a way that other books aren't. And yeah, I don't get it.

Why can't we have drawings in all books? I don't get it. It's a very English thing not to. I think Jane Austen couldn't draw. Same as me. But it would be lovely to have some big of this. I mean, I don't know. I think in other countries they're a bit more kind of visually literate than we are.

Like I think in France they've got quite a strong culture of illustration in older books. It's interesting, isn't it? Because I guess there becomes a kind of pride of like, I don't need the picture. I can imagine it. But I also wonder if it's like, so with picture books, very much the world is set by the book. Yeah. You can only, your imagination is doing the work. It is, as you say, it's a triangle, but it's continuing from what the book's done.

But with just written books, it's in your imagination. And then with novels, when they make a film of it and then they put those actors on the front, I'm fuming. Yeah, I'm assuming. That's not who I'm seeing in my head. Yeah. Maybe, but there are other ways to do the illustration that aren't quite as literal. And good book illustration doesn't just repeat the words. There's the gap in between the words and the image.

That's what I think the more picture books you read, I'm a massive fan as well of John Classen and Mac Barnett. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, John, John, the, the little mall, the hat, yeah. Ultimate Picture Book bros. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I want my hat back. I think I bought for one of your guys. Yes, we love it.

I was like, this is the gateway. And then they do this amazing series called Triangle Square and Circle, which are like, when I told you about, oh my God, square is a square. His job is to push up squares up a hill, right? And then Circle comes along and is like, whoa, like, you're a sculptor. And Squire's like, no, am I? I just. It's in a film of this.

Yes, it's on Apple. Yeah, yeah. And so then Circle's like, hey, can you make a statue of me and goes away? And Square's like, oh my God, what are we going to do? Squares spends all night trying to sculpt a circle, falls asleep in a puddle crying, wakes up, a circle comes along and accidentally he's made a circle of his rubble and there's a puddle in the middle. And Circle's like, you're a genius. And the end of the book, Square's like, oh, Square knew he was a genius.

Or was he? And it's like, it's like, like, it's not literally showing you this stuff. It's showing you just like exactly what you want for your brain to add the animation. to it. I love that thing in picture books. It's the best thing. And that is making the reader feel really powerful which is one of my favourite things as well. There's a great Quentin Blight book. Is it called

Cockatoos? I can't remember. But there's a guy who's looking for all his parakeets and parakeets. And you see, so we're the birds eye view in the loft and we can see all these birds hiding behind boxes and the human. And all the text says is he looked in

the loft or he looked in the attic. There were no birds there either. And we're going, And that's one of my favorite tricks. And because ultimately, actually, I don't really go into making my picture books message first. I try and do no message. Yeah, yeah. Actually, I know that sounds nuts, but I don't. I just go in, as I say, I'm on team kid.

So I'm like, I want to do a funny book now. What shall we do? And I just do it. And I do it to make myself laugh, my editor laugh, make myself happy. And then sometime later, someone else will point it out to me and go, oh, that was all about your pregnancy, wasn't it? And this is all about alienation and the bereavement of your father. I'm like, oh my God, I didn't know.

So what do you start with? I just start doodling. Yeah. I just doodle. I just try and get in a really playful. I'm very neurotic. So I have to really get into a playful state and let it all go and kind of get back to, I've always been a doodler.

So I try and go back to small Nadia, who was just quietly doodling with the A team on in the background. What do you have on your desk when you're doodling? What are you using? Just like whatever, biro, pencil, whatever comes to hand. I try not to, I'm not too kind of sacred about anything. In fact, the scrappier, the better. Because for years I was doodling on, I used to work in magazines. And as I said before, and, you know, I would get the big sheets of paper to check the spellings of things.

And I'd just be doodling in the corner. And my editor would be like, this is nice. Why is there a cat in the corner, though? Because Barbara's having a bad day. Exactly. So like low states. I'll doodle on anything. But you know, nowadays, I mean, now I guess it's my job. I should sound a bit more professional. I do just have like sketchbooks and doodle about and there'll be a shopping list and then, you know, whatever. But I think this is a bit like comedy. This is a job where you become professional, but you have to stay not professional. Exactly. Because you're having to, like you said, you're having to stay in a mind of a child. So there's no good you becoming, well, actually what this book needs to be about is this. Because you constantly having to go back. I think this is interesting. We've had this conversation for. Like how old is the child. that you are talking to? I guess when I'm doing picture books,

I, so when I'm first, it's like a snowball. So I'll doodle a character, maybe then doodle some, write some words or ask some questions of the character. Like, why does that dog look so stressed? What's going on? And then it will kind of expand in a wonky snowball

and I'll then sort of piece together like a rough layout of what this might happen in this story. And then I go back and maybe look at it and then I will consciously think, is a three-year-old going to get this? I might be a bit more conscious about how people will read it. And I do that throughout the picture book being built. I get to the end-ish, and I read the text aloud always.

I read it in different voices. So I read it as maybe first reader on their own, maybe a six-year-old picking out words. I read it that way and go, oh, they stumble on that word. Maybe they will. Oh, they'll learn a new word there. That's good. I'll read it as a teacher

to a big group of kids make sure it works in that way and I'll always read it as tired parent because I've been tired parent Yeah Oh my God when you're like I can read a book and have no idea what we've read Like it finishes

I'm like what was I just what Because I've just go You go into automatic You're planning something else Because you've read that book For seven years I know Like don't ask me what happened

In Goodnight moon Yeah I've just said the words Apparently I watched in the night garden for like three years. I can't tell you anything that happened. So I always read it in that way as well to make sure it's not too long. Yeah, yeah.

And be like, hopefully the parents close to bed now. They can have it like they can hear the wine talk, but you know. Yeah. So that doesn't really answer your question. I suppose I kind of, I think about kids. If it's picture books, I will think, and evade youngish three to five area. But, you know, I would say you're like doodling for young Nadia.

Like, how old is young Nadia? Oh, how's your Nardia? do you, like, I was always doodling. I reckon, like, I think I'm pretty arrested at like six or seven. That's what I, I think people who are not professional, but have a professional job, are arrested at a particular age. I think I am. Didn't you say we had this? You're nine, yeah.

Nine, things started to get a bit hairy at nine. Seven, I reckon. Yeah, it's interesting. I think I've got two versions I'm arrested. I think one is eight and one is 15. Okay. So I think when I wrote, where does she go? I think I actually had to be 15 talking to a younger child.

It's like a big sister being like, this is what's happened. I'm trying to explain it to you as best I can. But I'm not an adult. Yeah. So I'm telling you, like, I get it where you're coming from. But I'm like, I'm trying to let you know there's this other world over here that you might have to go to. I think that's a really useful age. Yeah, I mean, well, you're kind of a bridge.

You're still very sassy and that's not welcome. You're not cute and fun. You can get quite stroppy if you're stuck at 15. I ask about your relationship with your illustrator. Oh yeah, yeah. So Tom Percival. What happens if you are incapable of drawing a straight line is they obviously have like a marketing team and lots of people have. That's the other thing with picture books because it is an industry now.

So you have to create unprofessionally but then you go into a very professional room where. We're wearing a suit. I wear a suit. Big suits. Yeah, big suit. I wear a lot of phone. Yeah. And on a skateboard to show that I'm still.

Who wants to buy stocks in my picture? Close the deal. Got your deal. So lots of marketing people will come to you and say, well, we think this person is a good fit. And I think Tom might have been the first. So do you then look at their work? Well, I'm a picture book geek. So like literally when they reference people, I'm like, I can't imagine.

Tom has a big deal. Tom's a big deal. And he has another series of books called Big Feelings, I think Big Little Feelings, something like that. So that's Ruby's Worry, Norman's Normal. there's like a whole sector and they're all very specific emotion books. So one is about jealousy, one is about being angry, one is about making friends. So when they said here, I was like, oh, this will fit quite nicely because he already deals with emotional books. And then you don't really have a huge amount of say.

Like I think I could have said no way to him, but I would have been insane because he's like very successful and brilliantly talented. There isn't an opportunity to give notes or feedback. Oh, no, there is. Yes, that's true. No, there is. So he will then do like a kind of rough version, which I think they then don't send, I think they have lots of chats before they send it to you.

So it's like there's team writer and team illustrator and the bridge of the editors trying to make sure that everyone's happy. And then, yeah, there was like, there was a completely different cover that just looked a bit too scary. Was it the dream reaper with the size? Was it the grave? Holding a child up and stuff. It was the soil.

It was the machine going do-doo, that I thought was a bit much. My friend just read it to her shout out to my friend, Megan, who said she bought it for her kids, who she said they then had a big conversation of like, well, what had happened to the grandma? I said, oh, that's a sequel called What Does She Die Off? And also, why didn't she go to the funeral? Well, yeah, she should have gone, really.

But I guess in this book, she is kind of like four or five. So that's kind of the thinking of like, or maybe they haven't had the funeral. It was the other thought that we had. Like, they're still sorting it out. And this, we were dealing in child time. So maybe she actually died last week. But she, to her, it seems like ages since you've seen her grandma

because it was probably three weeks ago because grandma's been ill. There was a lot, you have lots of discussions about this. It's also really common for kids not to go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, very common, especially younger children. So yeah, you can feedback about stuff. How does it feel to see suddenly a character visualised? But the mum's wearing a cardigan, I think you'd really wear.

I mean I saw the mum I was like Oh he's based the mum on Carriad No do you know what that She sent a few pictures of a wardrobe in She definitely would wear that cardigan And her jeans I feel like that's your whole outfit

Do you know that's an unexpected Yeah Yeah so did Cardi One thing that you do brilliantly Which I want to quickly discuss is In your Billy series Billy and the Pirates I think it's my fav

You draw a mermaid That is not sexy And you wouldn't believe How many sexy mermaids turn up in kids fucking picture books. Your mermaid in Billy and a Pirate is they're basically the Supreme. They're the Supreme. They're three very cool women.

The tail comes up to like the armpits. So they've got like this really cool, what looks like a kind of six-in-dressed. Modest. Because the amount of books I've read to my daughter where she's, they're basically in a bra and they've sort of made them sexy. That's the other massive complaint I have about picture books where a lot of mermaids are very cavacious. When I first saw Nadia's drawing of a mermaid, I was like, yeah. Yeah, it is a kid's book.

So we don't need to be tits. They absolutely, we don't need that part of a mermaid. Like, they can learn later on. What will I come for next? You can give me back my mermaid tits, all right? They're so little to enjoy in this world. What's it? Tittness mermaids, what next?

Sometimes you look at them and you go, is this for the dads? Like, they'll have like these shells, massive boobs, tiny waist, and then like very low cut tail. I think it's very close to the princess thing. I think it's just that children also just like to look at. Children don't. Children don't care. My kids do. Children don't care.

They don't, like, they have never commented about this mermaid looking, not having tits. They've just gone, oh, those are mermaids. But as an adult, especially as a woman reader, you're like, this is, I'm relaxed now that the mermaids are not weirdly sexy. Okay. I think it's ingrained in us that it's normal. And it wasn't until I saw your drawing that I was like, why are we putting massive tits on mermaids? Like, I don't do not doing them on rabbits guys. I just wanted them to be cool.

Yeah, they looked cool. But then when I was, you know, I was like, in the story, they kind of, you know, sire. The sirens, yeah. The sirens who are, you know, going to cast the boat onto rocks. But I wanted them to be friendly and kind of friendly with Billy and really cool looking. And so that's why they've got, that's essentially why they're the supreme. Yeah, but that's so great. And I just think that's another weird thing that happens that we, like you're saying,

we don't put pictures in adult books, but we will allow, like, sometimes adult things to leak into the illustrations rather than being like, yeah, kids don't, they don't need tip, big tit mermaids. I'm sure your sons wouldn't mind if the mermaids didn't have tis. No, I'm sure they wouldn't mind. Yeah, they wouldn't be like, whoa, mum, what's this? Not for me. Thank you very much. Going back to your book, can I just ask? Because I was really, like we said, it's really direct, which I really liked.

And the only other book I can think of that deals with death in that way, picture book, is Sad Book? Oh, Michael Rosen, yeah. But Michael Rosen's Sad book, illustrated by Quentin Blake. What do you think of that? Have you read it? I have read it. Yes, I mean, that's grief. Picture Book number one.

Yeah. It's done everyone's this. I think if you haven't read sad book he wrote it after the death of his son and it is so beautiful and so direct and it's actually about Michael being really sad and struggling and he draws him as like

grey and like yeah it's... God it's very brave thing to do what happened to his son his son died I think it was meningitis he was 18 years ago he was 18 so yeah as a much older child and Michael has talked about this a lot

and he was already an established writer, a kid's book writer, when his son died. And what happened was he used to talk about his son a lot when he went to school events, and he was kind of part of the books. I think he was very tall and he used to mention him a lot. And he did a book event and someone asked him, oh, why do you not ever mention him anymore?

And Michael was really like, because he's dead and I don't know what to say, but he said he then went away and thought, oh, I owe them a book. This is too sad. I know. It is the sad book. It is a very sad book. It's a very sad book. But the difference between text and image is perfectly displayed on the first page.

Yeah. Because Quentin Blake has drawn Michael Rosen and he's got like a wonky smile on. And he says, you may think I am happy because I am smiling, but I am not. Oh, God. Sorry. This is destroy you all. But it is really beautiful. God, I tried so hard.

Like I've been like, just think about something else. Think about something else. We can talk about me being trapped in a dressing room with, what was his name, Daniel Beninfield, if that were held. Yes, great. In terms of directness, it reminded me. It's different. Yeah, it's very kind, because I think that book is an absolute classic of its genre. But what I thought with that one is it's, it was interesting, wasn't it?

Because the children knew Michael anyway. Yeah. And then they want, it was like, it was sort of, it was sort of like, it was sort of like, Michael and Quentin coming together to be like, how do we tell them what's happened? How do we tell them about this? And it's very much his story. Yeah, and it's very much.

And the one thing I would say is I think it is amazing book. It's slightly older. Yes. You can read it as a child and miss a lot of what's going on. And that's what I wanted this to be to just fill in that slightly like, yeah, from three to seven. And again, that kind of talking about this book talks about grandparent death, grandparent loss. whereas I think Michaels is so brilliant at dealing with

what happens to people who are grieving and kind of like why would someone be this sad and it's just it's sort of giving kids that key of like some things in the world are very very very sad whereas this I think I was trying to do like what happens what are the answers and also there should be more than one version yeah yeah exactly yeah

oh absolutely yeah that all exist alongside each other because you're right there might be an adult in a child's life who's grieving and the child doesn't care but needs to know why that adult is feeling that way. They're kind of coming at the same problem but from slightly different conversations

and I think from doing grief costs for so many years I had so many adults write to me to say we have no idea why but they will not stop asking questions about death our child or we've had a loss and we don't know what to say every book is saying they're going to heaven we don't know what to say and it's very common for kids to hear

I would say maybe three is quite early, three, four, five, six and really have loads of questions about death. Really, really, really be like... I mean, it's fascinating. It's fascinating. Also, so even at three, so my son wants to kill insects. Oh, yes. And doesn't, and wants me to tell him why that's bad?

Yeah. So why am I not allowed to stamp on the ant? Why am I not allowed to hurt the spider? Okay, what do you mean you've killed it? Yeah. What does that mean? I know. Why is that bad?

It's a lot. And it's a lot for them to get their heads around as well. Yeah, they're like, oh, be kind to the ladybird. But get the fly swat! Oh my God. It's fine if that dies. Yeah, my son has been like, well, how come some things are fine to die, to kill? Or as he said the other day, well, we found an ant and we all let it.

Okay. What did you eat? Well, I just had the leg and Buddy had the other leg. Okay. How did you split an ant? Did they just go raw or did they saute off? Yeah, I felt raw. I felt raw.

It seemed to be raw from that. But yeah, these are really hard. That's again, I just think picture books are just so fucking. amazing because they can they can do that thing that we're all struggling to do because you give this like neutral space between a parent and a child where almost like watching a film together but in a much safer not as stimulating not as confusing not as fast way and you get to side when you turn the page whereas a film is doing it for you and telling you when whereas this is you can check in with your child and they've also done all these studies haven't they that like

parents cortisol lowers as they read to children and that like that co-regulation that's happening when you're both because you say oh it's good for them for sleeping it's good for you it's good for you to sit there and be like absolutely okay we survived the day I really struggled with the early years with my son really bad they had postnatal depred the whole thing

and books picture books even if they were just like the shape books and I would go star let's count it's got five points And it would just give me something to say because I'd run out, I was like, I don't know how to talk to him. I don't know what to say. So they're really useful in that way. Also for dads as well to get involved.

If they can't get involved in the close stint to skin of breastfeeding, they can with a book. And that's another great use for them. Are you going to do another one? Am I allowed to ask? Yeah, I've got another picture coming out. That's not griefy. Big.

Yeah, I am. I'm doing another one which I'm in draft drafts at the moment and illustrated chats at the moment. Brilliant. Yeah, which is, again, I felt like I had to write this grief one. I felt like that's something that I knew was needed. But it was very nice to they were like, what's the next one you want to do? And I was like, a stupid thing. Yeah. Something very stupid.

I've got to say I'm here for stupid. So like I'm a very, I like my books to be silly and stupid because I think that's as valuable. Yeah. And I think it's really, really important. And especially if we've got a crisis in reading. It's like, let's make this nice for me. people. Let's make this nice for the kids and nice for the parents. Oh my God. Let's have a good time.

Something that came up the other day with Carrie Adonai is that some people don't like celebrities writing. Oh yes. I was explaining Sarah like I'm not a celebrity. But Kira Knightley had announced her book and then I found out for Instagram she did the drawings. She illustrated it. I know. I've not actually seen it but I do think it's interesting. Yeah. So I was going to ask how you felt about it. If you did have any strong feelings if that isn't putting you on the spot. No, it's not at all. No, it's not. No, it's not Well, I actually, so I don't have any strong feelings about any one person writing a book, whether they're an actor or a footballer or whatever. It's like, write your book.

The problem is not them. Yeah, yeah. The problem is going to be elsewhere. So the problem is more, I think, in supermarkets, there'll only be very tiny amounts of shelf space given to books. There's not much choice there. rightfully, you know, Julia Donaldson and Axel Schaeffler make fantastic books and they are a staple and long may they remain. But there's also hundreds of other picture books being made or children's books in general and it would be great to see them get equal weight. There is inequality, I suppose,

in terms of marketing. Like if you have no profile, so I have no profile other than being a children's bookmaker, you don't get on the one show. necessarily. Like it's very hard to market your books. For some reason we just don't give many airs, but I mean you guys are today. Thank you. But on telly, on the radio, you're not given much air time, which I think's weird because it's like, this is one of the best art forms in the world and we excel at it. In this country, we excel. Why are people not talking about this? So I think that gets, I think that causes some stress amongst some authors, I finn, whereas like, you know, they have whatever they call it, the POS stuff.

And it's all for one book and it might be for celebrity. And then it's harder for, you know, diverse voices or unheard voices to get heard. And so it becomes the celebrity gets the brunt of that. I think it's that imbalance that is the main issue for me. Other people might disagree. Because I would never like to point to anyone and go, you can't write a book. So I would never want to be that Finderw ID. So, yeah.

I think that's the other thing. There's a belief that somehow you're, yeah, this is like a money scheme and you're like, oh, it really is a passion. You really have to. Like said, Queen J.D., Julia Donson. Yeah, sure. But she's also been going for like 30 years. But yeah, it's coming because you love picture books so much. Nadia, thank you so much for coming on.

Thank you for having me. And good luck with the football. Yeah, good luck. I'll let you know how it goes. Or you can just take over Kieran Knightley's career. Maybe we do a job swap. Oh. Shall we quickly end on the Denin Benefits?

Daniel Bedinfield story? Just a smash its poll winners awards. I was just roving around, trying to get some snippets for the magazine, little snippets of gossip. And at one point I found myself in Daniel Bedinfield's dressing room. And I thought, excuse me, I should leave. There was another person there with his guitar. And then he just started singing acopella. Kind of.

Kind of. At you? Actually backed out of the room. As I backed out. Literally. Got to get through this. I think it probably must have been. How that.

I was literally by the door. and I was like, I don't, what can I do? Because if I leave, I'm literally just going, whoop. Yeah, there's no one at his concert. So I just had to go, and kind of, oh, my God. And like reverse out. Woo! Yay!

I got to get through this door. Bye! See you later. Did you ever meet, take that? I met Mark Owen when he was down the dumper. So he came around. Down the dumper? Yeah, so like before they reformed.

Oh, okay. So he was like, that was only time Pop Stars came to the Smashes offices, they were officially in a fallow period. So he came round and he'd release his nuclear war single for Second Warning. Okay.

Which we were big fans. What sentence? Do you remember when he release his nuclear war? We haven't had one since. Thank you, Mark Owen. He was very sweet. And he came round. He came around and shook all the higher

a mark. Bless him. Peter Andre came around. Well, it's the second guest we've had who's met Mark Owen there. Have you not met him? No. Come on.

She could have. She's too much. She won't. No, I couldn't have done. We were once in a restaurant with him and you literally... He was having his breakfast. You refused to even let us discuss that he was there. Oh, really? You just couldn't deal with it. Our friend was like, oh my God, Mark Owens behind us. She was like, stop talking about it. It's not happening. Leave the guy alone. Don't discuss it. Yeah. And then we had to eat breakfast being like, oh, we thought she'd be excited.

Emma Jane Unsworth once tracked him down when she was 15. So that's the other guest. Two guests now. Do you feel like you're getting closer? I'm sorry about this. Why are you sorry? Because you seem like, I feel like there's unfinished business. Oh, that's it. Yeah, we're going to have a third act, me and take that, but it's not happening yet. All right.

But, hey, no one can stop you. And if you want to join take that as the new Lulu. You can. It's the new Lulu. Lulu's still being Lulu. When she's finished being Lulu, I'll ask. Lulu will be Lulu in. Lulu never stop loo.

On her deathbed, tell San Francisco. Well. It turns. And that's how it gets past. Like Doctor Who? You will regenerate to the new Lulu. Thank you. That's a show I'd watch.

Anyway, thank you so much, Nadia. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for listening to The Weirdo's Book Club. Carrie ad's new children's book, Where Did She Go? He's out now. Nadia's children's picture books,

Bumble Bear, Billy and the Pirates, Billy and the Dragon, and her middle grade series, Grimwood, are also available to buy now. And I'm on tour. Tickets for my show. I am a strange gloop. We're on sale now from Sarah Pasco.co.com.

You can find out all about the upcoming books we're going to be discussing this series on our Instagram at Sarah and Carriads Weirdo's Book Club. And please join us on the Patreon for lots more weird and wonderful style. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you. Right, go to bed.